Is The Gospel The Goal when Arguing for Truth?

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So my question is a bit of a two -part question. The first part is, you talked about learning the arguments of the other side.

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I think the context had been Mormonism. And my question is, do you see value in also learning the language of the other side and using their words in response off of that?

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Your premise seems to be, and I think perhaps it's one I disagree with, your premise seems to be that the goal of every conversation should be salvation.

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And I would say the goal of every conversation should be the gospel, and the gospel sometimes manifests itself in simply just getting someone to agree that abortion is wrong, even if there isn't a salvation at the end or a recognition of the kingship of Christ.

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Now, I recognize most of your conversations seem to be in the context of talking about atheism and talking with atheists and Mormons.

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So I'm just wondering, in context where you're talking less about a worldview and more about a specific subject like abortion, euthanasia, that kind of thing, do you see value in sacrificing or setting aside your goal of salvation and focusing on getting the person to come to at least a closer

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Christian worldview on that issue? That's a good question. Thank you for that. That's very important. So first thing is, you mentioned language.

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I think that's vital in terms of learning their worldview and learning their language is so important because if you take a very close one in terms of language and words we're using, if you take

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Mormonism, for example, when you talk to the Mormon, if you just come to the Mormon and you say, you need to turn from sin and believe in Jesus, they would say, oh,

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I know. Gotcha. Completely. Yeah, I totally agree with you. This is God's word, the Bible.

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They say, oh yeah, that's God's word. Believe it. Yeah. Great. Jesus died and the cross arose from the dead. Yeah, he did. He really did.

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And it's like, wait, what's going on? I guess we believe the same things and the language is vital because we have to make sure we get behind the language to actually make sure we're defining our terms.

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When I say Jesus, I don't mean the brother of Lucifer, the spirit offspring of Elohim and one of his goddess wives and all the rest.

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When I talk about the atonement and the resurrection, there's very different biblical meanings.

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So language is vital in understanding what their worldview is, but also, yeah, the language, getting behind the language and making sure that there's common ground, that's

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God's ground, but making sure that we actually define our terms so that we know exactly what we're really saying and we're not confusing things by pretending like we're talking about the same things.

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Next, when you talk about the issue of like everything, the goal is the gospel.

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What I would say is, what I mean by that is understanding the context of the situation that we're in and the call of King Jesus to go and make disciples of all the nations and to baptize them and to teach them to obey.

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That's the ultimate goal. If we have a society, let's say, for example, we convince all of Canada and all the

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United States to no longer kill babies today in 2019, we're going to stop killing babies.

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Is that a success of the gospel? If it's apart from obedience to King Jesus, if it's apart from a biblical worldview, is it actually a success?

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Can we maintain it apart from a biblical perspective and biblical worldview? Because I would ask this question, if we ban all abortion today in the

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U .S. and in Canada, if we ban it today from a neutral perspective, ultimately not because of Jesus, not because of God's word, not because our hearts have been changed, then will abortion remain a criminal act 10 years from now?

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15 years from now? What about 50 years from now? Have we ultimately accomplished an objective and certain basis for the moral ought against the killing of human beings in the womb if we do it apart from God's revelation of His own character?

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Because if it's just a particular frame that we're in or time frame that we're in that we say, let's convince people that you shouldn't kill human beings in the womb,

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I would ask the ultimate question, why not? Why shouldn't I kill human beings in the womb?

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Is there something special about a human being in the womb, something different about them than other animals?

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I would say this, apart from a biblical worldview and God's revelation, you can't say there's an ultimate ought against killing human beings in the womb apart from God's revelation.

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But watch this, here's what I mean by that, and I actually love the question you're asking, and I think it's so important. The only way to get people to really want to preserve life and not kill other image bearers of God and to love

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God and love neighbor holistically throughout life is if their heart is changed and transformed.

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They have to see things through God's perspective. They have to have new eyes. And the reason that you are like that and I am like that is because God has opened your eyes and your heart.

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You see the world through God's eyes and you see human beings through the lens of scripture. That's why you feel the way you do, because your heart is changed.

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And the only way that the world is going to feel like that is if their hearts are changed as well. God says, I'll sprinkle clean water on you so you'll be clean.

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I'll cleanse you from all your idols. I'll remove the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

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Well, our culture and society needs is a new life put within them, and they need to have the revelation of God as the standard outside of themselves by which they say, that's true.

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Whether I feel like it or not, or my grandkids feel like it or not, that's the ultimate truth.

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But good question, because actually the abortion issue, the pro -life issue, I'll just say this as maybe something to whet your appetite.

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I think one of the dramatic failures of the pro -life movement internationally has been the pro -life movement internationally, their neutral perspective.

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As a matter of fact, we watched Southern and Northern Ireland go from criminalizing abortion, we've watched it and been there and served with those churches for the last couple of years.

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The reason they have dramatically failed and Southern Ireland legalized abortion is because of the pro -life movement.

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We were there to watch it happen. It was their rhetoric, their argumentation that was a complete loss for Ireland.

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They went from a essentially Christian culture that said, it's murder because that's the image of God.

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God commands against it. Along comes the United States pro -life movement into Ireland going, no, no,

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Jamie, don't say it's sin. Don't say it's image of God.

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Don't do that anymore. Say this, when you have an abortion, you're killed, right?

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That's how the propaganda went. The pro -choice movement is radical, strong. We want our rights, my body, my choice.

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Now you have the American pro -life movement stepping in going, no, no, no, it's killing love.

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It's just this pithy sort of like, it's your killing love, y 'all. All of a sudden, Southern Ireland goes, abortion is now legal.

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Our friends right now are having the last stand right now in Northern Ireland against abortion. They're fighting against the pro -life movement to do it.