Does Psychiatry or Psychology Lead More Individuals to Hell?

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The Wise and Foolish Builders

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand.

Welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions. You're not allowed to ask. We're your host Harrison Kerrigan pastor Tim mullet and today. We'll answer the age-old question Does psychiatry or psychology lead more individuals to be children of hell?

Luke 17 and the Woe Against Leading Others to Sin

Now Tim as we kick this episode off what Bible verse do you have for us that relates to psychiatry psychology and Some individuals being children of hell.

Yeah, Luke 17 one says this about Jesus. It says that he said to his disciples Temptation to sin are sure to come but woe to the one through whom they come. It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were to cats cast into the sea.

Then he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

Okay, so obviously. The verse itself is talking about Explaining that it's bad to be the person who causes others to stumble morally right to do sin against God. So that seems to be the takeaway from the verse, but then you know, Tim there's probably a lot of people who would be confused as to why you're even reading that verse as it relates to Psychiatry and Psychology.

Why are you. Why is that the verse you you chose to read during this discussion?

Well, there's a variety of verses that address this kind of topic in general. This is just one of those dress This is just one of those verses which described the phenomenon of you know Call it a quote-unquote causing someone to sin or leading someone into sin this is you know worded in the language of temptation another one that comes to mind, which is somewhat related to The title that we chose in general is where Jesus is basically saying woe to the Scraps and Pharisees for they travel land and sea To make a proselyte and then when they're done they make them twice a child of hell as himself.

But then both these verses you think about the nature of what they're talking about they're talking about the the idea that individuals can be sources of temptation in the lives of other people and They have a certain kind of teaching and they're put in positions of authority.

And you know when you think about psychologists psychiatrists. They are put in a position of authority and in our country in particular and in the world in general. Particularly in Western countries in general when you're talking about this this kind of topic.

There are individuals who have a position of authority who are used here who are using that authority. And that reputation that they've developed to basically be sources of temptation for individuals.

And then when they're done with them. The end result is that the individuals who are following their influence become twice a child of hell as themselves. Meaning like they're individuals that Satan is using to bring about much confusion in the world.

And and the doctrine that they're teaching it, you know, it may be respected, but it's really the doctrine of demons. It's leading the people to hell. So these are just two passages which are talking about that phenomenon of you know Causing someone to sin and you know in the language of the Bible when when the Bible talks about you know Causing someone to sin.

It's not denying Human agency in that way, but it is it is basically, you know Very honest about the nature of what's actually happening meaning you're using your influence to tempt people it. So in the language of Luke 17, he says to his disciples temptation to sin is you know?

Are sure to come these temptations are sure to come but woe to the one through whom they come in other words. Like judgment is going to come to the one who is tempting others to sin it would be better for that individual if a millstone were hung around his neck and He were cast into the sea that he should cause one of these little ones to send like meaning like.

When you have individuals who are looking to them for help and what they're actually given as a path to hell. Like that temptation that they're bringing upon that individual. It's not like an absolute temptation meaning it can't be resisted but to those kind of individuals strong words of judgment are being pronounced against them and Jesus will frequently use the language of woe to describe the nature of Their culpability in that process meaning what they're doing is not neutral.

Man, it sounds like Jesus is being pretty not gentle. When he when he's describing The the judgment that these people face that seems like it flies right in the face of how a lot of people view Jesus.

Doesn't it? Well, it's interesting. Yeah when When you think about the word gentle that's used in the Bible in general. It's this word Proud to toss I think is the word. But basically like the idea of gentleness is a little I can in coin a Greek is a little different than most people understand in general, so most people think of gentle.

When they think of gentleness they think of like someone who is just insufferably nice or whatever something along those lines but then the idea of this word in general is like it's the it's the idea of humility and Like a humble person is not going to Basically take account of a wrong suffered or something.

They're not seeking to You know, basically execute vengeance and of themself. So they're not they're not basically Responding to an offense with like you punch me. I'm gonna punch you back. That's the idea of a gentle person.

So the gentle person is the kind of person who's restrained who's humble who is willing to accept, you know. Quote-unquote abuse without returning it basically, but yeah, certainly Jesus pronounces woes and people would do well to realize that That there are things that are bad in the world and she's language.

That he directs towards those individuals who are corrupting other people for sure.

Yes, especially, you know when you think about the fact that Jesus specifically says when he you know During his ministry. He specifically mentions that he came not to bring the sword but to bring peace, right?

And so his primary purpose throughout all of this is to die and to reconcile people through his death burial and resurrection so the fact that he's so the fact in my mind at least the fact that he's taking time to Explain just how heinous it is to be the person who leads others astray.

That's a significant deal because that's not that's not like the primary purpose of why he's here, right? He's here to explain that the kingdom of heaven has come. And that he you know, the Messiah has come he's now dwelling amongst men.

But then he's having to take the time to explain there are false teachers out there. There are people who will deceive. Whether knowing whether they realize they're deceiving or not. They are going to deceive and there will be a judgment for that person.

So so that that seems Like that seemed I mean everything that Jesus says we should you know, all of his word we should take Extremely seriously and view it as all all as important, but then it seems like These especially it's like the you know If you fear the Lord, then you're like, hey, I don't want to be the person if God If if God and the flesh is saying whoa, you know to these people.

I don't want to be like those people that that should be the response every time but but I guess when it comes to this discussion of psychiatry and Psychology and and which one is worse It might be helpful.

I think probably a lot of people when they hear those terms They they probably Almost view them as the same exact thing with little to no different. They're almost like synonyms, basically, so I guess why don't you Can you can you help us differentiate?

What is psychiatry? Versus what is psychology just so just so we at least know the differences between the two when we're asking which one's worse.

Psychiatry and Psychology as Competing Models of the Human Person

Yeah, sure so I mean part of the reason why people view them as roughly synonymous is because there is a lot of overlap and what you're even talking About when you're talking about these two. Disciplines, so, you know in some in some sense.

They're not even really distinct disciplines anymore in general in the way that they're even, you know practice particularly as it relates to Psychiatry so psych, you know psychiatrists. Technically are our psychologists with an MD.

Basically that kind of thing. So like the primary difference between the two is that psychiatrists are the one to prescribe the medication? And a lot of that's just being done by directly, you know by MDs at this point.

So you can just go to a general medical doctor and they're gonna give you any number of psychotropic drugs because you know. Psychiatry is so entrenched itself in the medical Medical field at this point that there's In the minds of many people with their function is doing the same thing, even though they're they're very different conceptually like in in terms of what they're even actually trying to fix like the kind of problems that they're actually trying to fix or Typical medicine is supposed to be dealing with pathology meaning like tissue damage or malfunction.

So that's what traditional medicine is supposed to be doing. But at this point, you know, a lot of it is just reduced to Managing symptoms of unpleasantness and everything else. But you know, so what a psychiatrist is supposed to be is basically MD who's also taken courses in psychology.

Psychiatry or psychiatry and all that and so and then when you have like a psychologist. That what like if you if you just try to think about it in a simple way you could you know. This is an oversimplification, but you know for the most part psychology is talk therapy and then you know psychiatry is drug-pushing basically.

But I mean that's functionally what we're talking about. That's the distinction between both of the two things even though you know. Yeah, I mean technically you go to a psychiatrist and they're gonna do some talk therapy, too.

But you know most of most of what's happening is you have. Well, you have you have drug pushers and you have talk therapy. And so if you could even think if as we're talking about the subject in general.

It's just it may be just helpful to think about but in terms of that oversimplified Oversimplification so I think about psychiatrist as the ones who are drugging people into a stupor and Then you have the psychologist.

Who are basically perverting their head with their you know doctrine of demons and so that's a good starting point.

Okay, so but then and I know I asked this a little bit earlier. But I want to hear you talk about it a little more. There's gonna be people listening who are like who are telling themselves. Neither of these are bad.

Why are you calling it doctrine of demons? Why are you reading Bible verses about how they're going to lead? You know they're the same as the Pharisees and the in the sense that they are going to make make.

The people who listen to them, you know. Like just the same as them. They're gonna they're going to go to hell because of their teachings. What why is why why are you coming to those conclusions?

The Sufficiency of Scripture Against Secular Psychology

Yeah, I mean just read the DSM so I would just think about what's actually happened in the world at this point and The categories that people lean on what you have is I mean you have psychology as a discipline, which is you know largely just Building off of the DSM at this point, you know, there's obviously psychologists out there who disagree with that But I you know psychology is no one thing I mean, it's obviously not a model if there's any number of secular theories that are dealing with problems of thoughts behavior and mood.

The issue is the Bible says like God like declares the Bible to be sufficient to address These kinds of issues so second Peter 1 Basically just says that God in his word He's given us all things that pertain to life and godliness to the knowledge of him who's called us to his own glory and excellence so the Bible has Something to say about these issues.

So the Bible isn't meant to be a comprehensive textbook on every single area of life that That there is to address but then to the areas that it does address and the areas that it addressed like To areas that claim sufficiency.

It is actually sufficient So it used to be that individuals if you had a problem of thought behavior and mood You would go to a pastor To see what God had to say about how to deal with those problems of thoughts behavior and mood.

But then part of the part of the issue is that you know, the early psychologists they were Intentionally developing discipline Like this study of the mind they for it. I mean he intentionally set out to To provide like this secular replacement to soul care.

That's what he was trying to do. I mean, it's just it's in the literature That's what that's what they were trying to do. So instead of going to see a pastor to talk about your problems of thoughts behaviors and mood What you would do is you would you you would go to you know, an unbelieving counselor, right?

You go to an unbelieving counselor to talk about your problems of thoughts behavior and mood and so this was Intentionally set out to be a secular alternative to that based on evolutionary assumptions.

That's what that's what it is. So, I mean, that's what like psychology is right now. That's what secular psychology is. It's just any number of competing.

Ideologies.

That are based upon a Darwinian worldview and when you think about what actually happens in real life. You know that for good reason people understand the DSM to be like psychology's Bible. It basically is just a description of human behavior.

If you want to think about every single problem of thought behavior and mood that anyone deals with today you can describe any of any of any any like problem of thought behavior and mood in DSM language like in this language this package is the language of Like medical illness and to many people.

I mean, that's that's essentially what's happening. When you get some kind of label that comes from the DSM. What you have is you have individuals who are persuaded that they have been given a medical diagnosis.

They can't even tell the difference between that anymore. And then people who maybe know a little bit more about what the DSM is supposed to be I mean, they're gonna look at you and say oh, yeah. Well, these aren't like Like organic illness is not mental illness but in the minds of most people that's what actually they think of like when they think about these categories and the problem there is.

All these categories they just when if you have an individual who gets one of these DSM labels what they think is they think they've got they've gotten like a Diagnosis as if they've gotten cancer or something like that.

That's just how it sounds to them and then that's intentional on their part. So this this is packaged in the language of like medical illness in that way. So if you have a child who is disrespectful and refuses to obey anything you say, you know.

Take him to a psychologist and they're gonna get this label like they're they have up there suffering, you know. They're suffering like it sounds like a medical condition. They're suffering from oppositional defiant disorder.

It's something along those lines. So but that's true of every single.

Issue.

Like behavior like problem of thought behavior or mood that you can think of everyone is predisposed now to think about these in terms of These DSM diagnosis, but I mean the problem is not just with the DSM.

They're psychologists out there. There's psychiatrists out there who deny the DSM like the the issue is that every single one of these categories is based on evolutionary assumptions. But the nature of who man is so that's that's what it's based on based on these evolutionary assumptions.

So it's not grounded in the knowledge of who God is and what our fundamental problem is in the world. So God made us he's given us a law. He's written that moral law on our heart and the Bible will give us explanations for why we do what we do.

It's because we're a sinner so the Bible gives us this fundamental answer anthropology it tells us we're sinners who have violated the standards of a holy God and the result of that is going to be guilt shame and Condemnation and there's an answer to that and what Jesus has done for us on the cross.

Like that's the nature of the Christian worldview now you take these secular theories and but they're looking at it. They're just looking at us as complicated machines so if someone has like is acting abnormally the Presupposition that undergirds a project is that we're just a complicated machine, right?

We're just like matter plus time plus chance like we're just a complicated machine. There must be some kind of glitch. It must be reduced to some kind of brain problem. Despite the fact that the chemical imbalance theory has been improved.

Disproven and everything else and so what you have is you have on the psychiatry and the things you have. Individuals who are trying to manage all those problems of thoughts behavior and mood with drugs are predominantly.

Okay, and then you know, obviously using standard, you know Psychological techniques, but then on the site, you know on the psychology end of things I mean you have psycho psychologists who are trying to manage all these problems of thoughts behaviors and mood, you know by Farming them out to get their drugs from the doctors, but then also, you know, basically by some kind of humanistic Works righteousness a system that really isn't about like the glory of God, right?

So the council obviously.

Obviously if they're not mentioning God if there's no reference to the Bible. It's obviously not meant to bring people into reconciliation with God, right, right?

So, I mean the the whole objective is flawed from the very start. This isn't a project that's designed to help fix man's fundamental problem. They're guilt with their maker and how to walk in a manner well pleasing pleasing to God.

On the basis of the work of the spirit is producing in you. This is just like, you know self-help like you're your own God kind of, you know works righteousness like Pragmatism at that point. So nothing none of this like this is just a you're just being brainwashed with an alternative View of who you are, right?

Like instead of being a moral creature who's created in the image of God who's made to glorify God and enjoy him forever instead of Being that what you're you're viewed as is you're just viewed as some machine that has some glitch in the program, right?

And it probably isn't your fault because it's all word in the language of Medical illness so like instead of I mean it shows up at every single one of these like diagnosis so I mean like if you're if you are characterized by sorrow and despair and hopelessness and guilt.

You're gonna be described as you know suffering from depression. Right. So like the issue is that it's not like these are not moral categories. These are the categories of medicine. So they're just looking at phenomenon and then they're describing it in this medical language.

And that affects the way that you view you view the world so the problem then becomes if you're an individual who God says rejoice in the Lord always again and I say rejoice and You go to a psychologist and they tell you you're suffering from depression.

What did they do? Do you see I'm saying? You're suffering from depression. Well, that means then I can't rejoice in the Lord always again I say rejoice because I'm like what part of I'm suffering from depression.

Do you not get right? So when the Bible says banks are for nothing but everything with prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving to let your request be made known to God. Like I if you're you can't do that.

You can't be anxious for nothing if you're suffering from general anxiety disorder. So what you have is you have this complicated? Like medical sounding View of man, right so that that basically just runs roughshod over anything and everything the Bible has to say.

So yeah, my child has suffering from oppositional. They can't obey their parents in the Lord. Like what do you know? I like a little bitters and wrath and anger and slammer and clamber clamber. We put away from you along along with all malice to be kind to another tender heart of forgiving one another has gotten crisis.

Forgiving you. Well, what part of intermittent explosive disorder? Do you not get right? I'm suffering from bipolar disorder.

Like this is who I am. I'm not. I'm not in sin when I'm disobeying my parents. I'm suffering from a disease.

But that's what happens in the lives of many people.

Yeah.

So but then you think about what the result of that is like Jesus says those who are well have no need of a Position, but those who were sick I didn't come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

Well, the issue is if you have a group of individuals who are classified as experts who are saying that your sin is not your fault. You can't repent. You see I'm saying. Like, you know, like you're put in this category of individuals who basically saying I'm not like my problem is not spiritual.

My problem is physical. There's there might like despite the fact that no one ever knows what that meant like the actual prop like No one has any evidence whatsoever that any of these problems of thoughts behavior or mood are Resulting from your biology at all despite the fact that no one has any evidence whatsoever that that's happening it at all.

Like they still like like the issue is they they're blaming this on their brain they're blaming us on their biology. They're blaming us on their genetics blaming it on their background in some sense. And there's they're trapped in it right and then the best you could do then is just manage it.

You're like you're managing your anger. You're not like trying to put your anger to death and repent of your anger. So all the solutions are bad, right? Like even even when like there are individuals who are trying to help you deal with your anger.

It's not you're not dealing with it as sin that you repent of right you understand. So and then all the categories that they're giving you to think through the to even describe yourself. They're just these chains which you can you can never.

Yeah, not be characterized by so the whole framework is bad.

You know.

They're gonna categorize you up into certain personalities who have certain whatever and these personalities are types are fixed Immutable aspects of who you are. And you know, so the whole the whole project is bad from start to finish.

So whether they're drugging you to death or whether they're basically giving you victim labels like materialistic victim labels disease labels. Like the whole project is is it's not Trying to help you deal with problems of thoughts and behaviors and mood on the basis of what Jesus has done.

Through the means that he's given you to deal with them. They're basically just you know. Alternative.

Methods of trying to manage the human condition essentially. Yeah, like counter like counterfeit methods, right? Right?

Yeah, so I mean if they're not giving you the real stuff like this this isn't.

This is not a path to heaven. You understand right which which is is part of what makes it so Frustrating to even think about because you know, I I had to watch a presentation at one point about You know how to how to De-escalate situations with you know chill with children who are being Defiant and borderline dangerous towards other children or or towards, you know, like I guess adults as well but it's mostly about towards other children and What was so frustrating about having to watch this presentation was the lady who is giving it.

The entire time she started the presentation by essentially saying it's not the child's fault. It's not their fault. They probably they you know, good kid. She like they're good kid, you know. That Kim.

Yeah, there's a key and peel skit that we're referencing there. But but uh. You know you have you threw me off with that you've got you've got this lady giving this presentation and She starts it off by saying it's not their fault, you know, I like she's she's like, hey I can't tell you how many times I've had a kid, you know getting a get get Incredibly angry and and I have to de-escalate the situation and then I found out earlier that day there.

You know their mom got mad at him and it's like Well, okay, I mean, yeah, I mean I yes I too can recognize that there are Situations where it's more tempting to be frustrated, you know. Versus other situations where it's much easier to avoid being frustrated.

Sure like I understand that there's a category for that, but then When I'm fit when I'm applying these when I'm applying these ideas these biblical ideas to myself. Sure, like maybe I you know, maybe I had like let's assume I get frustrated at some point for whatever reason.

Sure, like I might be in a situation where it's easier to be frustrated where it's a lot more tempting to be frustrated. But then that doesn't excuse me from being frustrated. Right, like I I should have just not been angry to begin with if it's unrighteous anger.

It's unrighteous anger. It doesn't matter how it came about. I was still unrighteously angry. And so so you have this presentation where she you know. Hey, you've got if if you've got a situation if you've got a situation that you've got a de-escalate you need to remember.

It's not the child's fault. It's not the child's fault. Maybe their parents aren't doing everything they should be maybe their teachers aren't doing everything they should be. Maybe they don't have they're in a bad financial spot with you know, whatever who knows but.

But then at the end of the day, it's like well, yeah, but they can't they still can't be doing, you know. They still can't be fighting other people. Like come on. I mean, we're raising a generation of people to Who have no idea how to how to deal with these sorts of moral categories at all?

And they just think it's totally fine because it's not their fault. It's never been their fault. No one has ever held them accountable as if it was their fault. And and that's what's so frustrating about all of this is because at the end of the day.

You're raising a generation of people who now Don't even think that it's bad. When they get angry. They don't think it's bad when they hit other people. They don't think it's bad when they take other people's stuff because because they've been told their entire life it's not their fault and When if you think about just like we all have to go before God.

We all have to give an account for everything that we've done. Can you imagine the kid? You know who who grew into adulthood who's been trained that way to think that everything is not their fault imagine them going before a perfect and a holy God and You know and having to having to describe everything they've done and then receiving judgment from God.

But you know all the while probably thinking it's not even fair because no one came along at any point, you know, everyone lied to them. Everyone who came along in their life lied to them now. They still have a responsibility, right?

We we can't remove just because other people, you know deceived them lied to them. Whatever else. They still have a responsibility for themselves, but they certainly weren't helped by anybody. So so I think that's what's the most frustrating about this for me.

But but I do you know, I do want to ask you then. You know. It seems like these are both bad. They're just both bad. Is that fair to say sure Psychiatry psychology both bad. What's the point in having a conversation about?

Hey, which one's worse if they're both bad if they both send people to hell, what's the point in and Having a conversation asking which one of these is the worst offender.

Psychiatry as Drugging People Into a Stupor

Yeah, I mean the point is just it's just another way of trying to just take an opportunity to describe them both as bad.

I need you to know these are both so bad that we can't even tell which one is the worst one.

I mean it is difficult to answer answer this question because they're so bad in different ways. I mean, so. My one of my sons is going to a chiropractor right now and he's he has a curved spine or whatever so he has some issues that have surfaced because he has a curved spine and you know, the.

The chiropractor is looking at him and every time he comes in to see her or whatever. She's just so excited by him and she's so excited by him because he's a normal kid who just squirms around and moves around.

Can't sit still, you know, I mean he has a lot of muscle. So he's like he wants to fight all the time and use that and and everything else and so but he comes into the office and she's just kind of she gets a kick out of him and she's so excited about the fact that she's looking at a normal kid and this like.

And she'll.

She's like she can see she she looks at my son and she sees what kids are like who are not drugged into a stupor. Okay, if she thinks she's excited like it's sad like this is the state of the world that we're living in right now that she's Sad that she's excited about him because all the other kids who come in to see her are just drugged into a stupor.

She can't interact with them because they're all on their ADHD medic medication and everything else and they're just it's like talking to a zombie who doesn't interact with you at all and She knows the difference, you know, so anyone who knows the difference no I mean the issue when you deal with kids on a regular basis and you are able to point out the obvious.

You can tell what they're what kids are like when they're drugged into a stupor and you have like an entire generation of kids who? Are just drugged like to the point where they can't feel Normal in emotions anymore like this was happening so that that's the situation you find yourself in so this is I mean This is the same thing that happens with adults.

Like you have individuals who have just been put on all these medications in order to manage just life man. You know like basic problems of thoughts behaviors and mood. And so when you think about what's happening there is like you have a Generation several generations of people at this point who are largely drugged like they're they're just they're just zombies men and you know, I Counseled so many of individuals like this where I'm just looking at them I can't even have a normal conversation with them because you you're just looking at a person who is just not there.

Yeah, not there like they should be right. They don't respond normally to life. They don't have normal human emotions. And you know like so but you think about like spiritually what's happening there and that kind of thing.

What's happening is you have an individual who is? Like they have basic life problems like problems of thoughts behavior mood they have guilt. They're trying to drug away this guilt and this is just putting him in a situation where they can't Even think clearly about the nature of their condition.

So instead of like dealing with that guilt and shame and condemnation By means of what Jesus did on the cross. They're numbing it away and just think about like this travesty that that actually is. So the one hand I mean you have like you have generations Several generations of people who are trying to drug all their problems away and moving that like that mechanism that God uses To bring about repentance, right?

So the Holy Spirit God sent the Holy Spirit in the world to convict the world of sin righteousness judgment. They're trying to take all that conviction away with these drugs and succeeding. Okay, so like meaning like you're if you can't think you can't think right?

So like you. Like that's like, you know I'm not saying that they're they're able to overpower the power of the Spirit anyone God wants to save God can save. I'm just trying to say that like the mech the means the primary means God use of saving is By first convicting people of sin righteousness and judgment.

And so what you have is you have a generation of people who are drugging people trying to drug away all that Conviction of sin righteousness and judgment then on the other hand I mean you have psychology like, you know, any number of you know, secular Darwinian based theories of Psychology that are basically just complicated victim Victimization schemes at this point and and that are just based on the alien worldview bad bad goals from the outset bad goals from start different anthropology different, you know, soteriology everything else and so You know, I would say that psychology is worse in the sense that it is.

Like I.

Think it's so pervasive in the sense that. Basically, everyone understands himself in these psychological categories at this point, which are so hostile to a biblical worldview. So I would say that psychology is all pervasive like it's the air we breathe.

It's the it's the way that we understand ourself like we understand ourself through these categories. You know through these labels. So, I mean that's just pervasive man like that's everywhere and I think because it's.

Targeting.

The issue is because it's targeting the worldview and this basic anthropology and Giving you answers to you know who you are while you're here. How do you fix your problems? How do you deal with these fundamental life problems?

I would say that I get it has a lot more content to it, obviously then just. It may be our oversimplification of psychiatry, which I mean, you know for the most part. People are just getting drugged first now.