Does Psychiatry or Psychology Lead More Individuals to Hell?

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And the issue is that you're looking to the Bible to define your basic problem and give you basic answers trusting that God has answers to all of these things and so he's given you in his word a

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, does psychiatry or psychology lead more individuals to be children of hell?

02:04

Now Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us that relates to psychiatry, psychology, and some individuals being children of hell?

02:14

Yeah, Luke 17 1 says this about Jesus, it says that he said to his disciples, temptation to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come.

02:24

It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were to cast into the sea, then he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

02:32

Okay, so obviously the verse itself is talking about explaining that it's bad to be the person who causes others to stumble morally, right, to sin against God.

02:46

So, that seems to be the takeaway from the verse, but then, you know, Tim, there's probably a lot of people who would be confused as to why you're even reading that verse as it relates to psychiatry and psychology.

02:58

Why is that the verse you chose to read during this discussion?

03:05

Well, there's a variety of verses that address this kind of topic in general. This is just one of those verses which describe the phenomenon of quote -unquote causing someone to sin, or leading someone into sin.

03:20

This is worded in the language of temptation. Another one that comes to mind, which is somewhat related to the title that we chose in general, is where Jesus is basically saying woe to the

03:31

Scraps and Pharisees, for they travel land and sea to make a proselyte, and then when they're done, they make them twice a child of hell as themselves.

03:37

But then both these verses, when you think about the nature of what they're talking about, they're talking about the idea that individuals can be sources of temptation in the lives of other people, and they have a certain kind of teaching, and they're put in positions of authority.

03:54

And when you think about psychologists, psychiatrists, they are put in a position of authority in our country in particular, and in the world in general, particularly in Western countries in general when you're talking about this kind of topic.

04:07

They're individuals who have a position of authority, who are using that authority and that reputation that they've developed to basically be sources of temptation for individuals, and then when they're done with them, the end result is that the individuals who are following their influence become twice a child of hell as themselves, meaning they're individuals that Satan is using to bring about much confusion in the world.

04:33

And the doctrine that they're teaching, it may be respected, but it's really the doctrine of demons that's leading the people to hell.

04:41

So these are just two passages which are talking about that phenomenon of causing someone to sin.

04:46

And in the language of the Bible, when the Bible talks about causing someone to sin, it's not denying human agency in that way, but it is basically very honest about the nature of what's actually happening, meaning you're using your influence to tempt people.

05:04

So in the language of Luke 17, he says to his disciples, temptation to sin is sure to come.

05:10

These temptations are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come. In other words, judgment is going to come to the one who is tempting others to sin.

05:18

It would be better for that individual if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

05:25

Meaning, when you have individuals who are looking to them for help and what they're actually given as a path to hell, that temptation that they're bringing upon that individual, it's not an absolute temptation, meaning it can't be resisted, but to those kind of individuals, strong words of judgment are being pronounced against them.

05:43

And Jesus will frequently use the language of woe to describe the nature of their culpability in that process, meaning what they're doing is not neutral.

05:52

Petey Man, it sounds like Jesus is being pretty not gentle when he's describing the judgment that these people face.

06:03

That seems like it flies right in the face of how a lot of people view Jesus, doesn't it? Well, it's interesting, yeah.

06:09

When you think about the word gentle that's used in the Bible in general, it's this word, praotitos,

06:16

I think is the word. But basically, the idea of gentleness in Koine Greek is a little different than most people understand in general.

06:25

So, most people when they think of gentleness, they think of someone who is just insufferably nice or whatever, something along those lines.

06:33

But then the idea of this word in general is the idea of humility.

06:39

And a humble person is not going to basically take account of a wrong suffered or something like that.

06:46

They're not seeking to basically execute vengeance of themselves. So, they're not basically responding to an offense with, like, you punched me,

06:56

I'm going to punch you back. That's the idea of a gentle person. So, a gentle person is the kind of person who's restrained, who's humble, who is willing to accept, quote unquote, abuse without returning it, basically.

07:08

But yeah, certainly, Jesus pronounces woes and people would do well to realize that there are things that are bad in the world.

07:17

And Jesus has strong language that he directs towards those individuals who are corrupting other people, for sure.

07:24

Petey Yes, especially, you know, when you think about the fact that Jesus specifically says when he, you know, during his ministry, he specifically mentions that he came not to bring the sword, but to bring peace, right?

07:38

And so, his primary purpose throughout all of this is to die and to reconcile people through his death, burial, and resurrection.

07:45

So, the fact that he's, in my mind at least, the fact that he's taking time to explain just how heinous it is to be the person who leads others astray, that's a significant deal because that's not like the primary purpose of why he's here, right?

08:03

He's here to explain that the kingdom of heaven has come and that he, you know, the

08:10

Messiah has come, he's now dwelling amongst men. But then he's having to take the time to explain there are false teachers out there, there are people who will deceive, whether they realize they're deceiving or not, they are going to deceive and there will be a judgment for that person.

08:26

And so, that seems like, I mean, everything that Jesus says, we should, you know, all of his word, we should take extremely seriously and view it as all as important, but then it seems like these especially, it's like the, you know, if you fear the

08:45

Lord, then you're like, hey, I don't want to be the person. If God in the flesh is saying, whoa, you know, to these people,

08:53

I don't want to be like those people, that should be the response every time. But I guess when it comes to this discussion of psychiatry and psychology and which one is worse, it might be helpful.

09:07

I think probably a lot of people, when they hear those terms, they probably almost view them as the same exact thing with little to no difference.

09:18

They're almost like synonyms, basically. So, I guess, why don't you, can you help us differentiate what is psychiatry versus what is psychology, just so we at least know the differences between the two when we're asking which one's worse?

09:36

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, part of the reason why people view them as roughly synonymous is because there is a lot of overlap in what you're even talking about when you're talking about these two disciplines.

09:45

So, you know, in some sense, they're not even really distinct disciplines anymore in general in the way that they're even, you know, practiced, particularly as it relates to psychiatry.

09:55

So, you know, psychiatrists technically are psychologists with an MD, basically, that kind of thing.

10:02

So, like, the primary difference between the two is that psychiatrists are the one to prescribe the medication.

10:08

And a lot of that's just being done directly, you know, by MDs at this point. So, you can just go to a general medical doctor and they're going to give you any number of psychotropic drugs because, you know, psychiatry is so entrenched itself in the medical field at this point that there's, in the minds of many people, their function is doing the same thing, even though they're very different conceptually.

10:30

Like, in terms of what they're even actually trying to fix, like the kind of problems that they're actually trying to fix.

10:38

Typical medicine is supposed to be dealing with pathology, meaning like tissue damage or malfunction. So, that's what traditional medicine is supposed to be doing.

10:45

But at this point, you know, a lot of it is just reduced to managing symptoms of unpleasantness and everything else.

10:52

So, what a psychiatrist is supposed to be is basically a MD who's also taken courses in psychiatry and all that.

11:02

So, then when you have like a psychologist, if you just try to think about it in a simple way, you could, you know, this is an oversimplification, but, you know, for the most part, psychology is talk therapy and then, you know, psychiatry is drug pushing, basically.

11:17

But, I mean, that's functionally what we're talking about, and that's the distinction between both of the two things.

11:22

Even though, you know, yeah, I mean, technically you go to a psychiatrist and they're going to do some talk therapy too. But, you know, most of what's happening is you have drug pushers and you have talk therapy.

11:34

And so, as we're talking about the subject in general, it may be just helpful to think about in terms of that oversimplification.

11:43

So, I think about psychiatrists as the ones who are drugging people into a stupor.

11:49

And then you have the psychologists who are basically perverting their head with their, you know, doctrine of demons.

11:56

And so, that's a good starting point. Okay, so, but then, and I know I asked this a little bit earlier, but I want to hear you talk about it a little more.

12:05

There's going to be people listening who are telling themselves neither of these are bad.

12:12

Why are you calling it doctrine of demons? Why are you reading Bible verses about how they're going to lead, you know, they're the same as the

12:19

Pharisees in the sense that they are going to make the people who listen to them, you know, like, just the same as them.

12:29

They're going to go to hell because of their teachings. Why are you coming to those conclusions?

12:37

Yeah, I mean, just read the DSM. I mean, just think about what's actually happening in the world at this point and the categories that people lean on.

12:48

What you have is, I mean, you have psychology as a discipline, which is largely just building off of the

12:55

DSM at this point. You know, there's obviously psychologists out there who disagree with that. But, you know, psychology is no one thing.

13:02

I mean, it's obviously not a monolith. It's any number of secular theories that are dealing with problems of thoughts, behavior, and mood.

13:09

The issue is the Bible says, like, God declares the Bible to be sufficient to address these kinds of issues.

13:17

So 2 Peter 1 basically just says that God in His Word has given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness to the knowledge of Him who has called us to His own glory and excellence.

13:26

So the Bible has something to say about these issues. So the Bible isn't meant to be a comprehensive textbook on every single area of life that there is to address.

13:38

But then to the areas that it does address and the areas that it addresses, like, to areas that claim sufficiency, it is actually sufficient.

13:47

So it used to be that individuals, if you had a problem of thought, behavior, and mood, you would go to a pastor to see what

13:55

God had to say about how to deal with those problems of thoughts, behavior, and mood.

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But then part of the issue is that the early psychologists, they were intentionally developing discipline, like the study of the mind.

14:11

Freud, I mean, he intentionally set out to provide this secular replacement to soul care.

14:18

That's what he was trying to do. I mean, it's in the literature. That's what they were trying to do. So instead of going to see a pastor to talk about your problems of thoughts, behaviors, and mood, what you would do is you would go to an unbelieving counselor to talk about your problems of thoughts, behavior, and mood.

14:37

And so this was intentionally set out to be a secular alternative to that based on evolutionary assumptions. That's what it is.

14:44

I mean, that's what psychology is right now. That's what secular psychology is. It's just any number of competing ideologies that are based upon a

14:54

Darwinian worldview. And when you think about what actually happens in real life, for good reason people understand the

15:02

DSM to be like psychology's Bible. It basically is just a description of human behavior. If you want to think about every single problem of thought, behavior, and mood that anyone deals with today, you can describe any problem of thought, behavior, and mood in DSM language.

15:19

Like in this language, this package is the language of medical illness. And to many people,

15:24

I mean, that's essentially what's happening. Like when you get some kind of label that comes from the

15:30

DSM, what you have is you have individuals who are persuaded that they have been given a medical diagnosis.

15:36

They can't even tell the difference between that anymore. And then people who maybe know a little bit more about what the

15:41

DSM is supposed to be, I mean, they're going to look at you and say, oh yeah, well, these aren't like organic illness is not mental illness.

15:48

But in the minds of most people, that's what actually they think of when they think about these categories. And the problem there is that all these categories, if you have an individual who gets one of these

15:58

DSM labels, what they think is they think they've gotten a diagnosis as if they've gotten cancer or something like that.

16:07

That's just how it sounds to them, and that's intentional on their part. So this is packaged in the language of medical illness in that way.

16:14

So if you have a child who is disrespectful and refuses to obey anything you say, you take them to a psychologist and they're going to get this label like they're suffering.

16:25

They're suffering, like it sounds like a medical condition. They're suffering from oppositional defiant disorder or something along those lines.

16:32

But that's true of every single issue, like problem of thought, behavior, or mood that you can think of.

16:38

Everyone is predisposed now to think about these in terms of these DSM diagnosis. But I mean the problem is not just with the

16:44

DSM. There are psychologists out there, there are psychiatrists out there who deny the DSM. The issue is that every single one of these categories is based on evolutionary assumptions about the nature of who man is.

16:55

So that's what it's based on, based on these evolutionary assumptions. So it's not grounded in the knowledge of who

17:01

God is and what our fundamental problem is in the world. So God made us, he's given us a law, he's written that moral law on our heart, and the

17:09

Bible will give us explanations for why we do what we do. It's because we're a sinner. So the Bible gives us this fundamental anthropology.

17:16

It tells us we're sinners who have violated the standards of a holy God, and the result of that is going to be guilt, shame, and condemnation.

17:23

And there's an answer to that in what Jesus has done for us on the cross. That's the nature of the Christian worldview.

17:29

Now you take these secular theories, but they're just looking at us as complicated machines. So if someone is acting abnormally, the presupposition that undergirds the project is that we're just a complicated machine.

17:44

We're just matter plus time plus chance. We're just a complicated machine, there must be some kind of glitch. It must be reduced to some kind of brain problem, despite the fact that the chemical imbalance theory has been disproven and everything else.

17:56

And so what you have is you have on the psychiatry end of things, you have individuals who are trying to manage all those problems of thoughts, behavior, and mood with drugs predominantly.

18:05

And then obviously using standard psychological techniques. But then on the psychology end of things, you have psychologists who are trying to manage all these problems of thoughts, behaviors, and mood by farming them out to get their drugs from the doctors.

18:21

But then also, basically by some kind of humanistic works righteousness based system that really isn't about the glory of God, right?

18:33

So the council… Obviously, obviously. If they're not mentioning God, if there's no reference to the

18:39

Bible, it's obviously not meant to bring people into reconciliation with God, right?

18:45

Right. So the whole objective is flawed from the very start. This isn't a project that's designed to help fix man's fundamental problem, their guilt with their

18:53

Maker, and how to walk in a manner well -pleasing to God on the basis of the work that the

18:59

Spirit is producing in you. This is just like self -help, like you're your own God kind of works righteousness, like pragmatism at that point.

19:08

So none of this… You're just being brainwashed with an alternative view of who you are, right?

19:14

Instead of being a moral creature who's created in the image of God, who's made to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, instead of being that, what you're viewed as is you're just viewed as some machine that has some glitch in the program, right?

19:27

And it probably isn't your fault because it's all word in the language of medical illness.

19:32

I mean, it shows up at every single one of these diagnoses. So I mean, if you are characterized by sorrow and despair and hopelessness and guilt, you're going to be described as suffering from depression, right?

19:50

So the issue is these are not moral categories. These are the categories of medicine.

19:56

So they're just looking at phenomenon and then they're describing it in this medical language. And that affects the way that you view the world.

20:03

So the problem then becomes if you're an individual who God says, rejoice in the Lord always, again, I say rejoice.

20:11

And you go to a psychologist and they tell you you're suffering from depression. What did they do?

20:17

Do you see what I'm saying? You're suffering from depression. Well, that means then I can't rejoice in the

20:22

Lord always. Again, I say rejoice because what part of I'm suffering from depression do you not get, right?

20:28

So when the Bible says banks are for nothing but everything with prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving, let your request remain known to God.

20:35

Like I if you're you can't do that. You can't be anxious for nothing if you're suffering from general anxiety disorder.

20:41

So what you have is you have this complicated, like medical sounding view of man, right?

20:49

So that that basically just runs roughshod over anything and everything the Bible has to say. So, yeah, my child has suffering from oppositional defiant disorder.

20:57

They can't obey their parents in the Lord. Like, what do you like? Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and slammer and clamber clamber.

21:04

We put away from you along along with all malice to be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another has gotten Christ has forgiven you.

21:10

Well, what part of intermittent explosive disorder do you not get right? I'm suffering from bipolar disorder.

21:16

I can't like this is who I am. I'm not in sin when I'm disobeying my parents.

21:22

I'm suffering from a disease. That's what happens in the lives of many people. Yeah. So but then you think about what the result of that is.

21:30

Like Jesus says, those who are well have no need of a position. But those who are sick, I didn't come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

21:36

Well, the issue is if you have a group of individuals who are classified as experts who are saying that your sin is not your fault, you can't repent.

21:44

You see, I'm saying like, you know, like you're put in this category of individuals who basically saying

21:50

I'm not like my problem is not spiritual. My problem is physical. Despite the fact that no one ever knows what that meant, like the actual prop, like no one has any evidence whatsoever that any of these problems of thoughts, behavior or mood are resulting from your biology at all.

22:06

Despite the fact that no one has any evidence whatsoever that that's happening at all. Like they still like the issue is they they're blaming this on their brain.

22:15

They're blaming us on their biology. They're blaming us on their genetics, blaming it on their background in some sense. And they're trapped in it.

22:21

Right. And then the best you can do then is just manage it. You're like you're managing your anger. You're not like trying to put your anger to death and repent of your anger.

22:30

So all the solutions are bad. Right. Like even even when like there are individuals who are trying to help you deal with your anger, it's not you're not dealing with it as sin that you repent of.

22:43

Right. You understand. So and then all the categories that they're giving you to think through to even describe yourself, they're just these chains which you can you can never not be characterized by.

22:55

So the whole framework is bad. You know, they're going to categorize you up into certain personalities who have certain whatever.

23:01

And these personalities are types are fixed, immutable aspects of who you are. And, you know, so the whole the whole project is bad from start to finish.

23:08

So whether they're drugging you to death or whether they're basically giving you victim labels, like materialistic victim labels, disease labels, like the whole project is is it's not trying to help you deal with problems of thoughts and behaviors and mood on the basis of what

23:24

Jesus has done through the means that he's given you to deal with them. They're basically just, you know, alternative methods of trying to manage the human condition, essentially.

23:35

Yeah. Like counter like counterfeit methods. Right. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, if they're not giving you the real stuff like this, this isn't this is not a path to heaven.

23:46

You understand. Right. Which is part of what makes it so frustrating to even think about, because, you know,

23:55

I had to watch a presentation at one point about, you know, how to how to deescalate situations with, you know, chill with children who are being defiant and borderline dangerous towards other children or towards, you know, like,

24:16

I guess adults as well. But it's mostly about towards other children. And what was so frustrating about having to watch this presentation was the lady who was giving it.

24:28

The entire time she started the presentation by essentially saying, it's not the child's fault.

24:35

It's not their fault. They probably they, you know, good kid. They're good kid, you know, that.

24:43

Yeah. There's a key appeal skit that we're referencing there. But but, you know, you had you threw me off with that.

24:53

You've got you've got this lady giving this presentation and she starts it off by saying it's not their fault.

25:01

You know, she's she's like, hey, I can't tell you how many times I've had a kid, you know, get in a get get incredibly angry and I have to deescalate the situation.

25:12

And then I found out earlier that day there, you know, their mom got mad at him and it's like, well, okay.

25:19

I mean, yeah. I mean, yes, I, too, can recognize that there are situations where it's more tempting to be frustrated, you know, versus other situations where it's much easier to avoid being frustrated.

25:34

Sure. Like, I understand that there's a category for that. But then when I'm when

25:39

I'm applying these when I'm applying these ideas, these biblical ideas to myself.

25:45

Sure. Like, maybe, you know, maybe I had like, let's assume I get frustrated at some point for whatever reason.

25:53

Sure. Like, I might be in a situation where it's easier to be frustrated, where it's a lot more tempting to be frustrated.

26:01

But then that doesn't excuse me from being frustrated. Right. Like, I should have just not been angry to begin with.

26:09

If it's unrighteous anger, it's unrighteous anger. It doesn't matter how it came about. I was still unrighteously angry.

26:16

And so so you have this presentation where she, you know, hey, you've got if if you've got a situation, if you've got a situation that you've got to deescalate, you need to remember it's not the child's fault.

26:26

It's not the child's fault. Maybe their parents aren't doing everything they should be. Maybe their teachers aren't doing everything they should be.

26:33

Maybe they don't have they're in a bad financial spot with, you know, whatever. Who knows?

26:39

But but then at the end of the day, it's like, well, yeah, but they still can't be doing, you know, they still can't be fighting other people.

26:49

Like, come on. I mean, we're raising a generation of people to who have no idea how to how to deal with these sorts of moral categories at all.

26:59

And they just think it's totally fine because it's not their fault. It's never been their fault. No one has ever held them accountable as if it was their fault.

27:08

And and that's what's so frustrating about all of this is because at the end of the day, you're raising a generation of people who now don't even think that it's bad when they get angry.

27:24

They don't think it's bad when they hit other people. They don't think it's bad when they take other people's stuff because because they've been told their entire life.

27:34

It's not their fault. And if you think about just like we all have to go before God, we all have to give an account for everything that we've done.

27:43

Can you imagine the kid, you know, who who grew into adulthood who's been trained that way to think that everything is not their fault?

27:52

Imagine them going before a perfect and a holy God and, you know, and having to having to describe everything they've done and then receiving judgment from God.

28:04

All the while, probably thinking it's not even fair because no one came along at any point. You know, everyone lied to them.

28:12

Everyone who came along in their life lied to them. Now, they still have a responsibility, right?

28:18

We we can't remove just because other people, you know, deceived them, lied to them, whatever else.

28:24

They still have a responsibility for themselves, but they certainly weren't helped by anybody. So so I think that's what's the most frustrating about this for me.

28:35

But but I do I do want to ask you, then, you know, it seems like these are both bad.

28:43

They're just both bad. Is that fair to say? Sure. Psychiatry, psychology, both bad. What's the point in having a conversation about, hey, which one's worse?

28:54

If they're both bad, if they both send people to hell, what's the point in and having a conversation asking which one of these is the worst offender?

29:04

Yeah, I mean, the point is just it's just another way of trying to just to take an opportunity to describe them both as bad.

29:12

So it's really not even about, hey, which one's the worst one? It's about, hey,

29:17

I need you to know these are both so bad that we can't even tell which one is the worst one.

29:23

I mean, it is obviously I mean, it is difficult to try to even answer answer this question because they're so bad in different ways.

29:30

I mean, so my one of my sons is going to a chiropractor right now and he's he has a curved spine or whatever.

29:40

So he has some issues that have surfaced because he has a curved spine. And, you know, the the chiropractor is looking at him and every time he comes in to see her or whatever, she's just so excited by him.

29:53

And she's so excited by him because he's a normal kid who just squirms around and moves around.

29:58

Can't sit still. You know, I mean, he has a lot of muscles. He's like he wants to fight all the time and use that and everything else.

30:06

And so but he he comes into the office and she's just she gets a kick out of him. And she's so excited about the fact that she's looking at a normal kid and this like and she'll.

30:18

She's like she can see she she looks at my son and she sees what kids are like who are not drugged into a stupor.

30:25

OK, she's she's excited. Like it's sad. Like this is the state of the world that we're living in right now that she's sad that she's excited about him because all the other kids who come in to see her are just drugged into a stupor.

30:39

She can't interact with them because they're all on their ADHD medication and everything else.

30:45

And they're just it's like talking to a zombie who doesn't interact with you at all. And she knows the difference, you know, so anyone who knows the difference know the issue when you deal with kids on a regular basis and you are able to point out the obvious.

31:01

You can tell what they're what kids are like when they're drugged into a stupor and you have like an entire generation of kids who are just drugged like to the point where they can't feel normal in emotions anymore.

31:13

Like this was happening. So that's the situation you find yourself in. So this is I mean, this is the same thing that happens with adults like you have individuals who have just been put on all these medications in order to manage just life, man, you know, like basic problems of thoughts, behaviors and mood.

31:29

And so when you think about what's happening there is that you have a generation several generations of people at this point who are largely drugged like they're they're just they're just zombies, man.

31:41

And, you know, I've, I've counseled so many individuals like this, where I'm just looking at them, I can't even have a normal conversation with them, because you're just looking at a person who is just not there, you know, not there like they should be, right?

31:54

They don't respond normally to life, they don't have normal human emotions. And, you know, like, so but you think about like spiritually what's happening there.

32:03

And that kind of thing. What's happening is you have an individual who is like they have basic life problems, like problems of thoughts, behavior, mood, they have guilt.

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They're trying to drug away this guilt. And this is just putting them in a situation where they can't even think clearly about the nature of their condition.

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So instead of like dealing with that guilt and shame and condemnation, by means of what

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Jesus did on the cross, they're numbing it away. And just think about like this travesty that that actually is.

32:33

So on the one hand, I mean, you have like, you have generations, several generations of people who are trying to drug all their problems away and moving that like that mechanism that God uses to bring about repentance, right?

32:47

So the Holy Spirit, God sent the Holy Spirit in the world to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. They're trying to take all that conviction away with these drugs and succeeding, okay?

32:59

So meaning like you're, if you can't think, you can't think, right? So like you, that's like, you know,

33:08

I'm not saying that they're able to overpower the power of the Spirit. Anyone God wants to save, God can save.

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I'm just trying to say that like the primary means God uses of saving is by first convicting people of sin, righteousness, and judgment, you understand?

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And so what you have is you have a generation of people who are drugging people, trying to drug away all that conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

33:30

And then on the other hand, I mean, you have psychology, like, you know, any number of, you know, secular Darwinian -based theories of psychology that are basically just complicated victimization schemes at this point.

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And that are just based on the alien worldview, bad goals from the outset, bad goals from the start, different anthropology, different soteriology, everything else.

33:54

And so, you know, I would say that psychology is worse in the sense that it is like,

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I think it's so pervasive in the sense that basically everyone understands himself in these psychological categories at this point, which are so hostile to a biblical worldview.

34:16

So I would say that psychology is all pervasive. Like, it's the air we breathe, it's the way that we understand ourself, like we understand ourself through these categories, you know, through these labels.

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So, I mean, that's just pervasive, man. That's everywhere. And I think because it's targeting, the issue is because it's targeting the worldview and this basic anthropology and giving you answers to, you know, who you are, why you're here, how do you fix your problems, how do you deal with these fundamental life problems.

34:51

I would say that it has a lot more content to it, obviously, than just maybe our oversimplification of psychiatry, which

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I mean, you know, for the most part, people are just getting drugged first now. I mean, there's a lot of money in just drugging people to death.

35:08

Petey Yeah. I mean, how many people have reached out to us and commented on our stuff talking about, you know, the first time they went to a doctor about some issue, whether it was depression or anxiety or, you know,

35:23

OCD, whatever it was, how many times have they come along and said, the first thing they did was get me on medication?

35:30

Jared Yeah, they did that for the same reason they did the COVID stuff is because they get a lot of money out of it, you know.

35:36

So, I mean, at this point, most people are going to MDs. They're not going to psychiatrists, you know, in order to deal with this.

35:42

They're going to a medical doctor who's going to put them on any number of pills just to, you know, get all the kickbacks from that as quick as they possibly can.

35:49

So, I mean, at this point, though, I would say that, like, psychiatry, in the sense of, like, trying to manage people's mental states, like problems of thoughts, behavior, and mood through pharmacaia, you know, through drug use.

36:03

I mean, I would say that once you get on drugs, it's very hard to soberly reflect on your condition at that point.

36:12

So, I mean, at that point, once you get on these drugs, I mean, it's just like, this is, you're on them for life. And it's very, very difficult to change that and get off and everything.

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So, I mean, at that point, that's worse, I would say, than the talk therapy.

36:30

But, I mean, it is, you know, it's pretty pervasive too, but I don't know. You just want to say they're both bad.

36:38

They're both bad. Psychology is, like, very destructive. I mean, it's way more destructive to your worldview, the way, like, your anthropology, everything else, like, the way you handle life.

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But then, like, the issue is, once you get on these drugs, man, they just, they mess with people. So, I mean, they're, like, much, it's, yeah, it really messed with people at that point.

37:04

Okay, so that's a really somber place to be, and I don't want to end the conversation on that.

37:11

So, I'll ask you one more question. What do we as Christians do, knowing all this information, what do we do with that?

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I mean, like, how do we, you know, how do we try to help people understand that this stuff is unhelpful, it's bad?

37:27

Where do we go to learn more about why it's bad? How do we talk to people who are on these drugs, who are seeing these types of, you know, psychologists, who are being told all of these lies about what are truly moral issues?

37:46

What do we do as Christians about it? Yeah, I mean, for me, I grew up, and I read all the psychological books out there about, you know, every topic

37:57

I could find, and I had to kind of come to my end of myself and realize that there were no answers to be found there.

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And, I mean, at a certain point in my life, I basically, you know, I was kind of like the prodigal son. I'm running from God, and then

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I come to the end of myself, and I realize that, like, either I'm going to believe the

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Bible, or I'm just going to, you know, I'm not going to believe the Bible. I'm just going to give it all up, right? So, either I'm going to, like,

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I'm either going to, like, follow God, or I can, like, follow God with a whole heart, or I'm just going to give up on it and go atheist, go to the atheist route, or whatever.

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But during that time, I became persuaded that the Bible has everything that I need in order to understand who

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I am, why I'm here, what my purpose is, and what God wants for me. And I was going to treat it like that, right?

38:45

So, like, by God's grace and God's power and His work in my life, I was looking at the Bible and I was saying, like,

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God hasn't left us in the dark. He wrote us this word, right? He gave us this revelation of Himself to us so that we can understand who

39:00

He is and who we are. And I'm just going to trust it, right? So, at a certain point in my life,

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I just came to this conviction that the Bible was enough. It's sufficient. God's given us what we need. I've made a mess of my life by not listening to what

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He has to say about how to live it, but now I'm just going to understand myself in light of His revelation at that point.

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And basically, that simple act of trust in God and who

39:28

He is and what He's revealed has remarkably changed the nature of my life.

39:34

And so, if you look at yourself and you say, hey, God has given us answers in His word and I'm going to trust those answers, then the issue is that you're looking to the

39:43

Bible to define your basic problem and give you basic answers, trusting that God has answers to all of these things.

39:50

So, He's given you in His word a sufficient revelation to tell you how to deal with this life, man.

39:57

So, the issue is that these labels, these drugs, they're just chains, man.

40:04

They're just Darwinian -based chains that keep you in bondage to your sin in perpetuity forever.

40:13

I mean, there's nothing more hopeless than a psychological worldview to say that you're suffering from general anxiety disorder.

40:19

That's some kind of quasi -medical disease or something along those lines. That's just going to be the rest of your life. Basically, who are you?

40:28

You have all these medical -sounding labels that fundamentally define your life, and you're just going to have to be on drugs forever just to try to manage basic life problems.

40:38

I mean, there's no hope there, man. That's hopeless. That's who you are. That's who you're going to be for the rest of your life.

40:44

You're just going to be suffering from some sort of problem in your brain or whatever else that they're telling you.

40:51

I mean, that's the most hopeless worldview that you can possibly imagine. But the Bible's answer is, first, you have to embrace, hey,

40:57

I'm a sinner. God's holy, right? And He's given me a path out of my sin. I don't have to be held in captive to that.

41:04

So, I mean, just think about the difference between saying, hey, my anxiety is sinful and saying that my anxiety is a quasi -medical disease.

41:12

One is just going to keep you in bondage to that forever, and you're just going to be on drugs forever trying to figure out how to manage it, while all the while blaming it on everything else other than your own sinful heart doesn't want to trust the

41:23

Lord. But then the moment you say, hey, this is my fault and this is a sin, the Bible says rejoice in the Lord always.

41:28

Again, I say rejoice. The Bible says be anxious for nothing but in everything with supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God.

41:35

I don't have to be anxious. I don't have to be worried. I don't have to be dominated by fear my whole life. God's given me answers in His Word to help me to be more than conquerors related to these things, that I can stand firm in the

41:45

Lord. I mean, that's a hopeful way of viewing the world, and God isn't going to leave you by yourself with these things.

41:52

The most comforting thing you can possibly do is say that this is sin, because if it's sin, then if the

41:59

Son sets you free, you're free indeed. No temptation has ever taken you, but what is common to man, God is faithful. He won't allow you to be tempted beyond your ability, but that temptation will provide a way of escape that you may bear it.

42:09

You don't have to be dominated by sin. If that's what we're talking about, if we're talking about learning how to deal with sin in our own hearts and learn how to suffer in a way that glorifies

42:19

God, God gives you answers to all those things in His Word, and you don't have to lean on this alien worldview that's just designed to basically shackle you like a slave to your sin your whole life and ultimately culminate into leading you straight to hell.

42:36

So there's hope in God's Word for all these things, for sure. Tim Jernigan Okay, fair enough.

42:41

Well, thank you, Tim, for answering all my questions, and we want to thank all you guys out there for listening to us week in and week out, supporting us through the podcast, supporting us on social media, interacting with our posts.

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43:35

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