August 30, 2018 Show with Andy Woodard on “The Dangerous Drift Without the Anchor of Church Discipline” PLUS Dr. Richard D. Phillips on “The Glory of the Cross”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 30th day of August 2018 and I'm delighted to have on the program two guests who are returning guests to the program.

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During the first hour, my friend Andy Woodard, who is lead pastor at New Covenant Church, NYC, will be addressing the dangerous drift without the anchor of church discipline.

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And during the second hour, my friend Dr. Richard D. Phillips returns to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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He's the senior minister of the Second Presbyterian Church of Greenville, South Carolina.

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He's one of the speakers at the upcoming Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology to be held at the

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Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania on November 9th and the 10th where I will be present,

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God willing, manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and Dr. Phillips is going to be speaking on the theme,

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The Glory of the Cross, which is also the theme of the Quaker Town Conference next month or actually, should

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I say, three months from now. But first of all, it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Andy Woodard.

02:39

Hey Chris, thanks so much for having me on the air. Thank you for being on the air with us and also

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I want to thank you once again, you and Gary Rosenblatt who is on the staff there at New Covenant Church NYC.

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I want to thank you both for being new sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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It means a great deal to me. Yeah, it's our privilege and joy to be able to partner with you. Amen. Well, tell our listeners who did not hear any of your previous interviews on this program, tell them about New Covenant Church NYC.

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So we are a church, a new church in the middle of Manhattan. We meet in the

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Gramercy area on 24th Street between 2nd and 3rd. We are a

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Calvinistic Baptist church. We are oriented towards New Covenant theology, but that's not necessarily a hard line of division or separation for us, but we are definitely reformed in our orientation.

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We started a year ago and we are still making it now. We've come to some level of stability with membership and giving and support and all that stuff.

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So we're somewhat stable and growing and membership should be doubling here in the next two weeks with an influx of new members.

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And the Lord is bringing a number of rising leaders as well to be a part of the church.

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So it's very encouraging. Praise God. Well, we hope to remember to repeat the contact information later, but just in case

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I forget, the website for New Covenant Church NYC is ncc .nyc.

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It's very easy to remember. ncc for New Covenant Church dot nyc for New York City.

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Well, I know that you wanted to address the issue today, the theme that we are discussing today, the dangerous drift without the anchor of church discipline.

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And I know this has a lot to do with the fact of what you have been witnessing surrounding you in the heart of what could be the most religiously, racially, and ethnically diverse mission field on the planet

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Earth, New York City, and also one of the most liberal or even leftist areas in the

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United States, let alone the globe. And obviously, one would immediately come to the presumption or the assumption that because of that leftism, that there would be a great deal of anti -Christian ideology prevalent there.

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But tell us, to start off with, why on earth you wanted to speak about church discipline, one of the least popular topics that anybody could think of?

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Yeah, I mean, it's definitely how to win friends and influence people is to talk about church discipline.

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So I would say on the whole, your description of New York is fairly accurate. However, it's not necessarily hostile to Christianity, it's just hostile to biblical

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Christianity. Well, isn't that the only real Christianity? That is, it is truly

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Christianity versus liberalism as neither two separate religions, but liberal Christianity does tend to dominate most of the

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Christian conversations here in the city. So the issue kind of at the heart of it for Manhattan Christianity today is the issue of the largest churches in the city do not practice what some would call meaningful membership, meaningful church membership, and secondly, connected to that, because they do not practice meaningful membership, they do not practice church discipline.

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And then at a third level, because they do not do those first two things, when they practice communion, their communion is utterly wide open.

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Everybody in the building takes it, even though Paul warned that people improperly taking communion is why many are sick and some have even died.

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Yeah, so my intern went one of his assignments is to visit other churches in the city to find out what's happening around us, and two

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Sundays ago he went to one of these churches and the pastor said, many churches think that communion is just for Christians, but we don't teach that here.

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You're all welcome to take this. Was this guy a professedly conservative evangelical?

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Uh, no, he would be, I mean, he was a pastor at Hillsong. Oh, okay.

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So, but nevertheless, you're like, you're kind of, you're still shocked at how contrary to the explicit word of scripture this is.

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Now, doesn't Hillsong, in spite of its aberrancies and softness on homosexuality and a host of other serious problems, don't they blend in with evangelical

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Christendom? I'm not saying that they should blend in, but aren't they, like, highly respected or loved and cherished by many, especially music lovers within the evangelical church at large?

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Yeah, so, I mean, for sure in the church at large, but here in the city, like, many churches are trying to follow and be like them, because their lines are two blocks long of people trying to get into the services.

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So people look at that and think, well, they must be doing something right, and, you know, they're not usually preaching about being in the

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NAR or being charismatic. Usually it's, you know, a Jesus -oriented sermon with some, you know, popular songs, and there's nothing too obviously heretical going on, and so evangelicals or conservative evangelicals look at that and they say, oh, we want to be like that.

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And there are churches that are known as, like, oh, that's the Hillsong White Church. So it's...

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that's common here. But anyway, related to that, so you've got the issue of church discipline, which is connected to church membership, and then communion flows out of that, and that is the scenario in which we find ourselves today, or our church in particular.

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And as I was thinking about all this, my social media news feed is a testimony to some of these quotes that come to mind, like when

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D .A. Carson says, we don't drift into holiness, or Hebrews 2 .1 saying, we must pay much closer attention to what we've heard, lest we would drift away from it.

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And then Hebrews 10 .25 says, do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, and then it says that a fearful expectation of fire and judgment awaits those who do.

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The conclusion that I've come to through studying the book of Hebrews is that abandoning the local church is the express train to hell.

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It's the express train to apostasy. And my social media news feed bears witness to that, as I see friends and former friends of mine who were heavily, used to be heavily involved in para -church ministry, but not the local church, not a church with discipline or accountability or membership.

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They used to walk with us, but now they have departed from us, and the common theme in all of this that I'm seeing over and over and over again is no commitment to a local church or no commitment to a local church that has any concept of meaningful membership or church discipline.

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There is no accountability whatsoever, and I see this as a massive problem for us here in New York, and by extension, what happens in New York affects the rest of the country, and I know from experience that it's common as well throughout the country.

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We have a question from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, and Bobby says,

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Do you think that one of the reasons why even many evangelical churches in the heart of Manhattan do not practice church discipline is they find it hard enough being in such a liberal area, having people stick around for any length of time, and to conduct church discipline is just going to be thinning out the congregation more than they would hope?

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I'm not saying that I would advocate ignoring church discipline, but I'm just wondering if you think this is a reason.

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That's definitely part of it, but we have to remember in the

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Book of Acts, for example, when Ananias and Sapphira came forward, a wealthy power couple came forward with a large gift.

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Yeah, the most dangerous real estate agency that ever existed. They came forward to try and buy a position of prominence in the church by pretending to make a large gift, seeing that Stephen had just given a large gift, and he became a deacon, so they're like, oh, we can do this.

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Peter could have compromised and said, well, we'll sweep this sin under the rug and look the other way, but instead he called the knot on it and they dropped it.

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So yeah, this could hinder your church growth temporarily, but I think in the long run, if you play the long game and the short game, you play for right now but also for 100 years from now and 10 ,000 years from now,

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I think that believing in and practicing membership and church discipline will be more fruitful 30 years from now than if you do not do it right now.

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Right, and there is no benefit having a church filled to capacity or overflowing with goats.

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People seem to be more interested in whether or not their buildings are full than what is filling them.

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Yeah, the issue, though, so a part of this is economic as well for folks here, because the cost of living is so high, the cost of rent for your apartment is so high, the cost of rent for a facility is so high, they're afraid of not having a crowd.

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But what people fail to realize is when you have people that are not believers and or not committed to the church, they don't give much.

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They might throw a 20 in the offering plate, but realistically, your church cannot make it if people are just throwing a 20 in the offering plate.

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You need something resembling a tithe in order to be able to pay your bills. And that's not going to come unless people are committed to your church.

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So you're basically saying that in desperation for the adequate finances needed to operate a church, people are compromising, they're being pragmatic, and in doing so, they're denying

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Christ and his word. Yes, for sure. And a big part of this comes, like, it's philosophically driven as well, not just pragmatic.

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Pragmatics are part of it, but there's a philosophy behind much of it that is rooted in the church marketing movement, the

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Willow Creek model. And I've done enough digging on the internet to find the sources that lead to this paper trail of YouTube videos of interviews of people where they point back to 20, 25 years ago, where a bunch of leadership from certain church planning organizations went to Willow Creek and they learned, oh, this is how to do church.

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And the result is, oh, people don't want commitment. They don't want accountability. They certainly don't want discipline.

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They don't want hard preaching. They don't want biblical preaching. And they do want topics, though.

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You give them revolving doors of sermon series on marriage, dating, sex, money, how to be happy, how to be fruitful, here's the three steps to a better life, and that's what you see in nearly every church

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I can think of here in Manhattan. You mentioned

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Willow Creek. That is the congregation that at least was at one time pastored by Bill Hybels, right?

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Yeah, up until recently, yeah. Did he not admit that his ideology and the blueprint for what he viewed as success in church growth and all that, did he not admit that it was a failure?

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Yes, he did, but the folks up here seem to have missed that memo because they're still practicing the same things, which is we want to make church for people who don't like church.

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Yeah, obviously, once again, you are not attracting sheep into the flock with sheep food, you're attracting goats into the flock with goat food.

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And it is really remarkable why people would, who profess to be believers in the scriptures and who profess to be desirous of seeing the lost saved and be discipled and so on, they would just constantly want to lure people who have no interest in repentance and actually following Christ in truth.

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Do you think that that has something to do, and I know that some of my

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Arminian friends may think that I'm beating up on them, but I'm not in reality singling them out here, if you give me a moment.

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The Arminian ideology that anybody, any human being has a potential apart from any miracle of the

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Holy Spirit transforming their heart first, the belief that there is an innate ability for anyone to come to Christ lends itself to a more pragmatic method that who really cares what we do to get people in as long as we get them in.

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I even heard a pastor years ago on a bust, my sister, who's

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Roman Catholic, wanted me to go with her to a Billy Graham crusade on Long Island many years ago. And I agreed to go with her just because I wanted to explain to her the reasons why the church where I was a member does not cooperate with the

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Billy Graham association. And when we were on the bus, there was a pastor there who was actually leading this bus trip to the

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Nassau Coliseum on Long Island, and I asked him, is it true that if you go forward at a

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Billy Graham crusade that you may encounter a

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Roman Catholic or some other person who is counseling you, and that even if you are the counselor who is a pastor of a

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Baptist church, that you cannot dissuade a person from going to a

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Catholic church? In fact, you are supposed to drive them back to the church of their origin or even the synagogue of their origin.

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And he said, yes, that's true. And I said, why on earth are you doing this then? And he goes, well, people are getting saved.

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If it's working with some people, we're going to be involved. And so there's this heavy pragmatic compromising attitude.

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And the thing that's strange about this is that churches that claim to be theologically reformed are now in greater numbers imitating an

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Arminian ideology and framework, am I right? Yeah, that's kind of my observation.

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You have either churches embracing this Arminian or seeker -driven model, which

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I think really historically dates more back to like Charles Finney. They're either going that route or they're like a frozen, chosen, non -evangelistic, cold, dead

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Calvinism, but not an evangelistic Calvinism, which is what we want to promote.

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As Steve often says, if you are a Calvinistic evangelist, you're playing with a full deck of cards.

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So we want to play with that full deck of cards and have the whole Bible available to us and go at it instead of sitting back saying, oh no,

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God will save his elects. Well, we're going to our first break right now. Actually, technically it's our second break because we had to, because of technical reasons, go to one earlier.

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But this is our first official break. If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Andy Woodard about our theme today, church discipline and church membership, meaningful church membership, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside of the

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USA, don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Hi, Phil Johnson here.

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I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You, and I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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So I'm delighted that my friend Chris Arnson and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the

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G3 conference where I'll be joining James White, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic of biblical understanding of missions.

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Chris Arnson and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th.

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Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpen's Iron exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

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That's g3conference .com. See you there. My name is

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Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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It's called New Covenant Church NYC. They are a reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

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You can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc .nyc.

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc. Have a great day. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every

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It went exactly according to plan. And he is in a car right now, unless he is taking a stop somewhere for a bathroom break or McDonald's or something, but he, or maybe he's not doing

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Eastern time. That's just about when Richard Phillips will be joining us on the air. So I just want to thank all of you for praying for Mike.

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Continue to pray for him, because I'm sure that he still is going to need time to mend.

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And so pray that this is a rapid recovery and that he is stronger and healthier than he has been in years, and that he is stronger and healthier spiritually as well as a result of this trial that our loving and gracious Lord has placed on him.

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We are now back with Andy Woodard, lead pastor at New Covenant Church, NYC. We're discussing the dangerous drift without the anchor of church discipline.

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And if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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And I know that I have repeated this a number of times during other interviews on this program, but the reason why, or one of the reasons, why this is such a very important issue to me, near and dear to my own heart, is that I was under church discipline.

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And if I did not submit to this discipline, I might not be sitting here breathing air with a beating heart if I had not gone under church discipline willingly and having been restored to full membership in good standing in the church where I was a member at the time and still remain friends with those pastors at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, NY.

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I was somebody who left or abandoned or repented from drunkenness as a young man in the 1980s, a very serious level of alcohol addiction, and for 18 years was sober and free from that addiction and then fell back into it as a

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Christian, and a really seriously, scandalously level of alcohol addiction.

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And I just thank the Lord for church discipline. People have this idea that church discipline is such an antiquated thing in their minds.

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It is not loving in their minds. We're supposed to be just forgiving people without repentance.

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Biblical truths will be distorted, like love covers a multitude of sins, and take the log out of your own eye before removing a splinter from your brother's eye, and judge not lest ye be judged.

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All these things that are true but in their context don't mean what people think they mean very often.

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If you want to comment, Andy. Yeah, that's for sure. And honestly, that's kind of the perspective

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I had for much of my life. I thought that church discipline was a negative thing or a bad thing, but I realized that church discipline really is just part of basic Christian discipleship, basic Christian orthodoxy, which is

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Christians are lifelong repenters, and low levels of church discipline happen on a daily basis when we go to our brother who sinned against us and say, hey man, the way you spoke to me yesterday wasn't right.

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I just wanted to talk to you about that. And then they're like, yeah, you know, I've really felt bad about that since I said those words to you.

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That sort of thing, even though it's very simple and very low level, that's still a part of church discipline.

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But we typically only talk about church discipline once it reaches the level of excommunication. But the whole process is love.

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It is God's grace given to us. We don't deserve to have

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God come after us in love and bring us back to him, but he does it because of his mercy and grace.

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And so it is the utmost manifestation of the love of God and the acceptance of God, is to pursue us and to love us when we want nothing to do with him.

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Yeah, if you were to ask the average person, whether they're Christian or not, if you were to ask them, do you think that parents would be behaving responsibly and lovingly and in a fashion that demonstrated they truly cared about the safety and well -being of their children if they never disciplined them in any way, shape, or form?

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Now I understand that the modern pop psychology for quite a while has been teaching parents that they should never spank a child, and they have really dumbed down or deluded what discipline is.

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But most people would agree, no matter how liberal they are or aberrant they are in the realm of disciplining children, they would believe that it needs to exist in some fashion.

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They don't believe that a child should just be able to do anything that they want to do in their home.

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So is that a gunshot I hear? I know you're in Manhattan. Yeah, I went down to the lobby of my apartment building and the door closing behind somebody just came in.

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But isn't this strange that people would think otherwise, when it comes to church discipline, they would be thinking to themselves, you're not supposed to be disciplining somebody who wants to live their lives any way they want to, even though they're a member of a church.

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This is strange, isn't it? Yeah, so that's kind of a common perception, but I think the world either gets this or should get it if you just use a parenting illustration or I think of the gym illustration where you're taking a group class and the trainer gets up in your face and says, listen, you're not giving 100%.

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You're not doing the push -ups with the right technique. You're going to hurt yourself if you don't straighten out that technique.

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Or you're not going to get the results that you want and you need if you don't do what you need to do.

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And it's awkward. It's uncomfortable having the trainer call you out in front of classes. You don't want them in your face, but you need them in your face and that is discipline and it is good for you.

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And in time, once you've grown, once you've matured, you come to understand that it's good for you to have that trainer get in your face.

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And in time, you're glad that they did it and you will grow to become the type of person that is willing to confront others and say, hey man, you need to work on that form if you want the results that you need.

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We have an anonymous listener who says, I know that you both have identified yourself as Reformed Baptists.

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Do you think that some of the Reformed churches that are abandoning church discipline, even if they don't come out and say it openly, is because of fear that they may begin to imitate those other

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Reformed churches and perhaps even in particular Reformed Baptist churches who have abused church discipline and have become authoritarian dictatorships on occasion and really have done great damage to the lives of individuals and families?

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That's a very good question because I know that that is an honest question and I know that that has existed even amongst the circles where you and I fellowship.

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I don't mean the same congregations, I mean the same circles of theology that we fellowship in.

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So restating that question, do I think that local Reformed Presbyterian churches don't practice discipline because they don't want to become abusive?

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Or they don't want to be guilty of looking or resembling too much like those churches that have gone way too far in the other direction?

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I mean, I want to say yes just to be charitable, but I don't think that's what it is. I think that it is a sphere of lawsuits.

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Wow. Now, that's interesting. I remember years ago, it might have even been before you were born,

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I don't know. Probably. It was in the,

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I'm thinking early 1990s, might have been even the late 1980s, but there was a woman who was attending a

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Church of Christ congregation. And the Church of Christ, I don't know what most of them do now in regard to church polity and so on, because they are not cookie cutter, they're not a monolith, but it was very common amongst

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Churches of Christ. And when I say Churches of Christ, I'm speaking of what has been known as the

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Campbellite Restoration Movement. They would say, oh, there's no such thing as church membership.

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It's not in the Bible. There's no sentence that says you have to become a member of a church, that you're automatically a member of Christ's Church through your baptism, but there's no other kind of membership required, membership roles and all that kind of thing, which obviously

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I don't believe is biblical, because if you're submitting yourself to elders in a church, you are obviously a member.

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But this woman was an adulteress, an unrepentant adulteress, and she sued the church for publicly excommunicating her and mentioning her by name to the congregation and all that.

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And I can't remember how the lawsuit went. I think that she may have won. But this was a reminder to a lot of evangelicals who were basically imitating that kind of polity in regard to membership, in other words, denying that it exists or being sloppy with it, that there is a need for it, even legally, to prevent a church from being sued.

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Now, even if a voluntarily joins a church, you're saying that they could still sue a church if they are violating a clearly spelled out principle that is in writing in the covenant of the church or the mission statement of the church or the constitution of the church or the creedal or confessional statement of the church?

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I'm no law expert, so I don't know. I mean, I've been told by lawyers and law professionals that anybody can sue you for any reason.

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That's true. Whether they're going to be successful or not is the... Yeah. Now, the practical reality here is that very few churches have a membership covenant, so they don't really have expectations of the members, and things don't tend to be practically laid out.

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They might have a membership covenant buried in the back room of some file cabinet somewhere, but if you go talk to folks in the pews and you keep asking them until you find somebody who's a member and you ask them about the membership covenant, my understanding is that that is not really a practical part of their life as a member or as a church.

37:53

And let's see here. We have another question for you from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks, what are the steps that you believe should be taken, gleaned from the

38:08

Bible, in regard to church discipline, ranging from something that might be a minor enough offense that it should not be made publicly known, going to a more serious event that might be something that needs to be brought to the attention of the church?

38:27

Can you give us an outline of the differences between those kinds of things that require discipline?

38:33

Yeah. So I assume he's not talking about just, like, can you quote Matthew 18, 15 through 20 for me?

38:40

Because that's simple enough. Well, if you want to do that anyway. All right,

38:46

I'll just pull it up. It says, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you've gained your brother.

38:53

But if he does not listen, take one or two other witnesses, along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

39:00

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church, and if he refuses to listen even to the church, so that the third level of the church is supposed to be pursuing the person, then let him speak to you as a

39:10

Gentile or tax collector. So then you begin, like, evangelizing the person. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

39:20

Again, if I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done to you by my Father in heaven, for where two or three are gathered in one name, there

39:28

I am among them. So that's why we believe a church must have at least three people, because you have to have two people in order to excommunicate somebody.

39:40

So practically speaking, we would follow these steps, talking to the person one -on -one.

39:46

Now, if a charge is leveled against an elder, the Bible requires that that first step must have two witnesses.

39:54

So you can't just have one person accusing the pastor of something in complete isolation.

40:00

Like, it has to be a little bit more grounded than just one person's claim.

40:07

But generally speaking, you go one -on -one, talk to the person, they won't listen to you, take another to another person or two, and then if they won't listen to that, then present to the church.

40:18

I think there's room in this process to have multiple step number one, multiple step number two, like, you know, you talk to them twice, you talk to them three times, they still won't listen.

40:29

Then you bring in another brother from the church and then talk to them. You know, they still won't listen, try again.

40:35

Like, I think, yeah, you can go immediately step one, step two, step three in Scripture and say, well, that's what the

40:42

Bible says. But I think that it's also okay to plead with them and to, um, because every situation is different.

40:53

You're going to have people that are doing all kinds of different things, being very creative in sin patterns.

41:02

So practically speaking, what are things that we would excommunicate someone for?

41:09

I really think it's more or less any unrepentant sin. Let's take, um, not paying your electric bill, or that's something that's, like, deducted already, but, like, not, not, not paying for stuff that you're supposed to pay for.

41:29

Like, that's stealing. You might say, oh, well, it doesn't really matter. Well, no, it does matter. Um, you know, not, not paying your library card bill.

41:39

You know, you say, oh, this is stupid and inconsequential. No, it does matter, and you need to do that.

41:44

So as Christians, we are lifelong repenters, and if we harden our hearts and we refuse to repent of sin, then that's something that we need to repent of, and if we refuse to repent, we're hardening our hearts.

41:59

So it can be over silly little things. It can be over, and these are not, this is not, like, abusive, um, like, over -the -top church discipline.

42:11

We're talking Biblical issues of Biblical hardening your heart and refusing to repent.

42:20

So someone who stops coming to church, yeah, that is a church -discipline -worthy thing.

42:28

Someone who refuses to disciple their kids, yeah, that's a church -discipline -worthy thing. Um, somebody who won't pay their traffic ticket, yeah, that's a church -discipline -worthy thing.

42:39

Um, it's, it's, like, our whole lives are open hands before God, so we submit all of ourselves to Him.

42:50

Um, does that answer the question? Yeah, I think it does, and, um,

42:56

I think that some people are paranoid about elders of a church, and sometimes it's a single pastor of a church, becoming, like, uh, the

43:08

Christian police, uh, and they're, begin intruding into the privacy of somebody's life or home, and then they're digging for things to then discipline the person over.

43:20

Uh, that, of course, is an abuse. I would, I'm sure you would agree to an extent, but it's probably a very rare thing.

43:30

It's probably something that is more commonly in the 21st century done by cults and so on.

43:36

But at the same time, uh, if something is brought to the light of public scrutiny, and, you know, even if it's just a handful of people, uh, these things have to be, you know, rectified.

43:53

The person needs to be repentant and brought to restoration, and that is for the person's good. People look upon this as only a negative thing because there are, uh, there is sadness involved, there is fear involved, there is often anger involved, so they just view this as something that is completely negative and wrong.

44:17

But, uh, just like, uh, Mike Gadosh needed heart surgery, uh, there are people who have these sins in their lives need surgery in order to live, uh, to live, uh, not only healthy spiritual lives as Christians, but also, uh, to prevent their physical, uh, harm and even death on occasion, like it was with me personally, as I mentioned before, with the drunkenness.

44:45

But this is, this is always to be done, uh, in love, and it is a, it is a loving act, and it is a loving act when done properly and biblically with godly motives, isn't it?

44:57

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it's also important to remember that the final authority in excommunication is the congregation, is the

45:06

Church itself, not the elders. So, according to this passage, it says, if he refuses to listen, tell it to the

45:13

Church, and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, then let him be to you as a

45:19

Gentile and tax collector. So, with that, there's actually, assuming you have regenerate

45:26

Church membership, and these people are possessed by God and dwelt by the

45:32

Holy Spirit and taught the Word of God, there actually is a massive safety net in that.

45:39

There's safety in the numbers, because, um, if these people really are being ruled by Christ through his

45:49

Word, you shouldn't be having those extreme abuses that happen on these rogue cases of pastors excommunicating people over stupid things.

46:01

Uh, we have, uh, let's see here, John in Bangor, Maine has a question. He wants to know, have you discussed the issue of the problem of churches in New York City not having

46:15

Church discipline or meaningful membership with like -minded pastors of other congregations?

46:24

Um, I've talked to them, I talk to pastors about it pretty regularly.

46:31

Um, there's not a lot of like -minded pastors within an hour of here. Wow.

46:37

But I do talk to some of my friends out in Queens and Long Island, but that's, you know, that's an hour and a half away or more.

46:47

Um, I'm trying to, sorry about that, ambulance. Um, yeah, so we're trying to lead a subtle or not -so -subtle reformation among churches here in the city by just meeting with pastors and having conversations.

47:08

Like, tonight I'm going to a meeting with church planners and pastors that, from the invite list, is going to be pretty big and pretty broad.

47:18

Far more broad than I would be comfortable with. But if I can meet people there, get some phone numbers and contacts, meet with these guys one -on - one, these are the types of conversations where I've had where pastors have looked at me and said, oh no, we can't just follow the

47:33

Bible. It'll never work. Or church membership is passe. We don't do that. Nobody wants to join the church.

47:39

Like, when pastors who are somewhat prominent figures in New York City say those things to me, that's kind of a vulnerable statement where they're exposing their heart, and then it gives me the opportunity to say, well, what about this passage of Scripture?

47:56

Or have you considered this perspective? And I do think, in time, a friend of mine met with a prominent leader today, and they talked about our church plan.

48:10

They said, oh, it's not sustainable to do what Andy's church is doing. And the reality is, we talked about the numbers yesterday and realized this is sustainable, and we are self -supporting, and if you're just talking pragmatics, we can argue from pragmatics as well, but we do think we can bring change and bring more people into a like -mindedness of theology and philosophy, but it'll take time.

48:40

Let's see here. We have another anonymous listener in Manhattan who wants to know, how many faithful churches could you, off the top of your head, recommend someone attend or even join in Manhattan?

49:05

Well, that's pretty sad that it's taking that long for you to think.

49:10

I mean, I just want to be careful what I say here, because... Right, right, I understand. So if I'm talking about Reformed preaching,

49:20

Regenerate Church membership, and male pastors that are not on the brink of church split, collapse, or pastoral resignation, less than three.

49:38

Wow. And again, that's Reformed gospel, Believer's baptism, church membership, and complementarian or male pastors.

49:48

I know of one way, way, way uptown, but that's like 10 to 20 miles north of here.

49:55

It's in, like, Inwood, but I'm not sure if they're actually Reformed in their gospel preaching, or if they just are graduates of Reformed seminaries.

50:08

But I'm not sure they would be... I'm not sure they would consider themselves very interested in, like, the regulative principle or saying

50:18

Scripture regulates our church. The answer's very few.

50:28

All right, we have, let's see here, Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says,

50:35

Don't you think there are times when even we who are theologically Reformed need to refer people to non -Reformed churches if they just happen to be the best churches, the most biblically faithful and sound in their practice and leadership that are available to people?

50:53

I mean, obviously, if you have a situation in Manhattan where there's less than three that you could recommend, don't you think that you can open your scope?

51:04

I mean, I could tell you from personal experience that I can recommend churches that are not five -point

51:13

Calvinist confessionally Reformed, that I have a good conscience about sending people to.

51:21

And sometimes, you might have a Reformed church in that same area, but there is an abuse of authoritarianism in a

51:30

Calvinist church, or some other weird thing that's going on that I would feel more comfortable sending them to the non -Calvinist church.

51:38

Do you also feel that comfortable opening up your scope there? Yeah, so I would be, in theory, yes.

51:52

In principle, yes. The trouble is that the main popular ones that most folks regard as good churches are also charismatic, too.

52:10

So it's not just whether they're Reformed or not, it's these folks are like,

52:16

IHOP, the NAR, New Apostolic Reformation, the

52:22

Bethel Church type stuff. I can't endorse that.

52:31

I can't recommend and say, oh yeah, go to that church, or a church that doesn't actually preach justification by faith alone.

52:39

That's a big one there. Yeah, like if they deny inerrancy,

52:44

I can't recommend. Right, I wouldn't either. So let's say, just because a certain megachurch doesn't have church membership, they don't practice membership, which by definition means they don't have accountability, does that mean

53:01

I cannot recommend them? Kind of, yeah.

53:07

It kind of means that, at the same time, there are disgruntled people who want to be in a certain type of church that has a certain type of music, a certain type of programming, a certain type of whatever, and they're not going to be satisfied with us.

53:24

And so then I look at them like, hey, just fine, go ahead and go. I mean, be happy. We're glad for you to go to that church, but at the same time, it's my

53:36

Burger King quote, like, have it your way. I'm not gladly saying that, but I'm saying, okay, have what you want.

53:46

Well, we are out of time, Pastor Randy, and I know, once again, that your website is ncc .nyc.

53:54

N -C -C for New Covenant Church dot N -Y -C for New York City. Do you have any final words you'd like to say before we go to our midway break and then welcome

54:03

Richard D. Phillips onto the program? I don't want this to sound too negative, so I'm actually extremely enthusiastic about the work that God is doing here in New York, and I could not be more optimistic.

54:18

Great. Well, I am looking forward to a long and mutually rewarding partnership between Iron Trip and Zion Radio and New Covenant Church, New York City, and looking forward to getting to know you better and having our friendship grow and strengthen and flourish, and I really appreciate your interest in helping to keep

54:37

Iron Trip and Zion Radio on the air. Yes, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Well, God bless you, brother. All right.

54:43

Take care. You too. And we are going to our midway break right now. Our midway break is required by Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, because of the fact that they have their own commercials and public service announcements that they need to air in order to keep the program localized to Lake City, Florida.

55:05

So please be patient with us as we go on this break and use this time not only to write down information that our advertisers provide so that you can patronize them, but also write down questions for Richard D.

55:21

Phillips, pastor of the Second Presbyterian Church of Greenville, South Carolina, who is going to be discussing the glory of the cross.

55:29

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55:35

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55:42

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I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

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And you'll also get free shipping on your order of $50 or more. Just have a few announcements, very important ones before we are joined by Richard D.

01:03:02

Phillips on our theme, The Glory of the Cross. First of all, next week, I'm heading down to Jacksonville, Florida for two events that I've orchestrated.

01:03:12

First, the event will be held at the Gordon -Conwell

01:03:17

Theological Seminary on Friday, September 7th, 6 .30 p .m. It is featuring my friend

01:03:24

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and his dear friend Dr. Michael L.

01:03:30

Brown of the Lion of Fire radio program and the Fire School for Ministry. They are speaking on a house -mended

01:03:36

Christian unity in a culture of outrage. If you'd like to attend that event at Gordon -Conwell

01:03:42

Theological Seminary's Jacksonville, Florida campus, go to SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org

01:03:48

for more details. They are co -sponsoring this event with me. That's SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org. Then on the following night,

01:03:55

God willing, Saturday, September 8th, also at 6 .30 p .m.,

01:04:01

there is a debate that I have arranged where Dr. James R. White and Dr. Michael L.

01:04:06

Brown are on the same side and they are debating two individuals who are ordained ministers but who believe that homosexuality is acceptable to God.

01:04:17

The theme of the debate is, is homosexuality consistent with New Testament obedience?

01:04:23

That's Saturday, September 8th, 6 .30 p .m. at the Switzerland Community Church of Switzerland, Florida, which is a neighboring town to Jacksonville.

01:04:34

If you want more information, go to SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org. SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org, and then coming up in November the 9th and the 10th, the

01:04:44

Glory of the Cross is the theme of the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, and that is going to be held at the

01:04:51

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania, and the speakers include my guest who's going to be joining us any moment now,

01:04:58

Richard D. Phillips, and also David Garner, and Ray Ortlund, and Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn.

01:05:06

If you want to join me at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania for this event where I will be manning an

01:05:12

I Am Sharp in Zion radio booth, go to AllianceNet .org,

01:05:17

AllianceNet .org, click on events, and then scroll down to Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

01:05:23

Then coming up in January from the 17th through the 19th, that's a

01:05:28

Thursday through Saturday, I will be at the G3 Conference once again, manning my exhibitor's booth for I Am Sharp in Zion radio at the

01:05:37

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

01:05:43

The theme is The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions, and the speakers include

01:05:48

Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson of Grace To You, the ministry of John MacArthur, and Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio, Dr.

01:06:03

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, Stephen J. Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by R .C.

01:06:10

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster. Go to G3Conference .com,

01:06:18

G3Conference .com, and I would strongly urge you to not only register to attend, but I would urge you to register for an exhibitor's booth, just as I will be manning, because they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to attend.

01:06:36

And last but not least, I am asking you once again, if you love the show, to please donate to the show, because we need your contributions to remain on the air.

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01:08:02

That is also the email address where you could send in a question to Richard D.

01:08:08

Phillips, and our email address again is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

01:08:14

We're going to be discussing for the remainder of the program, The Glory of the Cross, which is also the same title of a conference that we are promoting, that I already mentioned, the

01:08:28

QuakerTown Conference on Reform Theology, to be held in QuakerTown, Pennsylvania at the

01:08:33

Grace Bible Fellowship Church. We are now joined by Richard D.

01:08:38

Phillips, who is the senior minister at Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina.

01:08:44

He is also a highly sought -after conference speaker and author, and by the way,

01:08:52

I've just been notified this very second that our friend Mike Gadosh of Solid Ground Christian Books has arrived safely home from the hospital after his heart surgery, so praise

01:08:59

God for that. But Dr. Richard D. Phillips is going to be speaking at a couple of events that we want to talk about, not only the

01:09:07

Glory of the Cross Conference, which is the theme of the QuakerTown Conference on Reform Theology, being held in November on the 9th and the 10th at the

01:09:17

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in QuakerTown, Pennsylvania, but also an event that he is conducting and hosting at his own congregation,

01:09:26

Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, which I am excited about as well. I just heard about it, the

01:09:33

Sovereignty of God Conference, October 12th and the 4th. But first of all, it's so great to have you back on Ion Sharpens Ion Radio, Dr.

01:09:40

Richard D. Phillips. It's been quite a while. It's great to be back with you. Yeah, it's phenomenal to have you back, and I always enjoy hearing you preach when

01:09:49

I go to the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology and any other venue where I have the opportunity to hear you preach.

01:09:55

Why don't you tell our listeners who have not heard you on this program, who might be unfamiliar with you, tell them about the

01:10:02

Second Presbyterian Church of Greenville, South Carolina. Well, I'm sure many are not familiar with me.

01:10:09

I pastor a 125 -year -old church in the downtown area of one of the fastest -growing southern cities,

01:10:15

Greenville, South Carolina. Probably 10 years ago, nobody would have heard of it, and probably today most of you have heard of it.

01:10:22

It's a growing industrial area. It's a beautiful, growing, vibrant city in South Carolina.

01:10:29

We're the upcountry of South Carolina. That means up towards North Carolina and Tennessee, that upper left -hand corner.

01:10:38

And our church has been downtown for 125 years, and it's been a conservative,

01:10:43

Bible -believing, Reformed Presbyterian church, and it's a wonderful place to serve as pastor.

01:10:50

Praise God. Did it ever go through a period of liberalism before the

01:10:55

PCA existed, since it's such an old church? Yes, it did, as you would expect, and there's actually four

01:11:02

Presbyterian churches founded in Greenville, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. We were the church plant of the original 1st, which is a

01:11:08

PCUSA church, and there were probably around World War II and afterwards, there was a couple of ministers here who we would consider liberal.

01:11:20

But, you know, one man can change a lot, and there was a man named Gordon Reed who came here the year that I was born, in 1960.

01:11:27

And I don't think the church had ever been liberal. The pope would have been a little liberal, although mostly in its history it had not been.

01:11:35

And Gordon was just a good evangelical Bible preacher who taught them doctrine. And, you know, once you've taught your church the doctrine and why it's biblical, it's hard to shake that.

01:11:45

And really, ever since 1960, when Gordon Reed came here, this has been a strong conservative evangelical

01:11:52

Bible -believing church, and grew in the years after that into a more self -consciously

01:11:58

Calvinistic -reformed congregation. But when our denomination was formed in 1973, we left the liberal

01:12:08

PCUSA, and our church is one of the founding churches. A leading church. So it was a faithful pastor who preached the

01:12:15

Bible and loved the people, and the church's identity formed around the Bible. Praise God for that.

01:12:22

And he's still alive, and I know him. And he'll come back and do funerals for, you know, people from his era.

01:12:27

It's really nice. Wow. And I know that my dear friend Joe Bianchi of Calvary Press and his lovely wife

01:12:34

Monica are members there. They used to be members of the church where I was a member on Long Island. Yes, they were. And say hello to them for me.

01:12:42

Christina's not a little girl anymore. She's really a vibrant young Christian woman. So the

01:12:47

Bianchis, yeah. So thank you for sharing them with us. I think you stole them.

01:12:54

They are Presbyterians now. Yes, I know. Well, I know that you are having, in addition to the conference that I am going to be attending in November, the

01:13:07

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals conference at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown. I know that you're having a conference on October 12th and the 14th.

01:13:15

Why don't you tell us about that? Yeah, we are kind of a flagship kind of reformed congregation in our area historically.

01:13:23

We're the downtown church, which kind of gives us a hub quality. And so we really want to provide leadership regionally and expose people to the great truths of the

01:13:35

Bible and the doctrines of the Reformed faith. And so because we're a conservative church, we're connected to those.

01:13:43

There's a lot of fundamentalist Christians here, and there's a lot of varieties of that, but we have a lot of affinity with them, like believing in the inerrancy of Scripture.

01:13:53

We believe in obedience to the Bible. We believe in the blood of Jesus. And we would like to serve them, particularly our region, which is not, well, quite a few

01:14:03

Presbyterian churches here, but historically is not Reformed. And we'd like to be a light so that people can come to our church and they can learn about the

01:14:10

Reformed faith. And this year we have Kevin DeYoung. People may have heard of Kevin, an enormously gifted, I would say younger minister, but they get older.

01:14:20

He's a really tremendously gifted person, and he'll be preaching

01:14:26

Kevin DeYoung, a man named Trent Hunter, who pastors one of the churches associated with Bob Jones University here, and then

01:14:33

I'll be preaching. And so we want to shine a light in an area.

01:14:38

You know, Bob Jones University is kind of a big presence in Greenville, and there's a lot of great things.

01:14:47

The president of Bob Jones is a good friend of mine, a very godly man. But we'd like to have an influence for Reformed theology in that broader community.

01:14:54

And you know how we're going to do it? We're going to preach the Bible. That's what we're going to do. And this year we have as our theme, you know, we're not trying to do anything complicated or highfalutin.

01:15:03

We're doing the sovereignty of God. And it's going to be a great conference. If you haven't heard

01:15:08

Kevin DeYoung, this guy, he's a tremendous theologian and preacher, and we're blessed to have him. And I'll be preaching,

01:15:14

Trent will be preaching, Trent's connected to the Baptist churches particularly. So we're trying to reach into the broader, we're trying to have a

01:15:21

Reformed consensus in the area, and we really do in many respects. So we want to serve particularly our region.

01:15:29

I think everything will be on our website, so spcgreenville .org. It's October 12th to 14th, and we're having a conference here on the sovereignty of God.

01:15:40

It's going to be great. Great. And you can find out more information at herewestandgreenville .org.

01:15:51

herewestandgreenville .org. And I hope that anybody living within traveling distance to Greenville and who has an open calendar on those dates can get to there.

01:16:02

And in fact, I want to also tell our listening audience how impressed, how extremely impressed

01:16:10

I was by the preaching of Steve Pettit, the president of Bob Jones University.

01:16:16

Man, he's great. I went to a sermon audio conference in New York City not long ago called the

01:16:24

Foundations Conference, and he was one of the speakers. And I know that actually upset some anti -Calvinist

01:16:31

Bob Jones graduates that he was there because he was the only one that wasn't openly and confessionally

01:16:37

Reformed. But his messages certainly were. It sounded like he was clearly teaching the

01:16:42

Reformed Ordo Salutis, and he was very gifted at doing it as well. So I am looking forward to it.

01:16:50

Honestly, he's a tremendous man. You know, Bob Jones, many people, I suppose, in the North have bad thoughts about Bob Jones because the press has been kind of bad, and there are some things in their legacy that are not great.

01:17:00

But you know, they've always been faithful to the Bible, and they've loved the Lord. And I will tell you,

01:17:05

Steve Pettit, God has been so faithful to them, and he's having a huge impact. And I wouldn't want to put him in a box.

01:17:12

It would be uncomfortable to him. But let's just say that he has been seen in my congregation many times. And he and I are very good friends, and he's a tremendously godly, gifted man.

01:17:23

Amen. And you know, some of my favorite of all preachers are from the Free Presbyterian Church of North America.

01:17:30

And I know that they've had a long history of connection with those Calvinists. And so I love to have some of those folks on the program as often as I can.

01:17:40

And the other... Stephen Lee, who owns Sermon Audio, goes to that church. That's the connection. That's what

01:17:46

Sermon Audio is. I used to live next door to the owner of Sermon Audio. He used to promote me more when

01:17:52

I kid for friends. But he's another tremendous guy. He's from that church. Yes, I know

01:17:57

Stephen. I've interviewed him on the program, and I look forward to having him back. And the other conference that we've been mentioning and we've been promoting for months is the

01:18:08

Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology. The theme is the glory of the cross, November 9th and the 10th at the

01:18:14

Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quakertown. Tell us, if you can, what is your specific theme under the umbrella of the glory of the cross?

01:18:24

Well, let me just first, and pick it back up if you don't mind, a little bit. Sure. What we're all trying to do is kind of the same thing.

01:18:30

In 1974, James Montgomery Boyce started the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology that was really the first of the modern

01:18:38

Reform conferences. And the Philadelphia Inquirer interviewed him and said, essentially, have you lost your mind?

01:18:45

Do you think people are going to come to a conference on Calvinism and Reform Theology? And Boyce's answer typically was a masterpiece.

01:18:55

And he said, and this is what's animating all these conferences, certainly in Quakertown as well, is he said, you know,

01:19:01

I look at Church history at those times when the Holy Spirit worked with great power and the Church had a big impact on the culture and God was glorified.

01:19:10

And one thing you'll see with all those times in history was an emphasis on the doctrinal themes that we call

01:19:16

Reform Theology. He said, I am acting on the conviction that if we will raise the banner of the great truths of God's sovereignty,

01:19:24

His grace, and the glory of the cross, that God will attract people to that and He will so impact them that it will affect their churches.

01:19:33

That was 1974, so we're 42 years after that. What an impact it's been through that conference and then

01:19:42

Ligonier came about afterwards. And I think some of the most effective versions are things like what we're doing and what

01:19:49

Quakertown's doing, which they're not big media things, but there'll be 500 people in Quakertown and you'll meet people there and pastors are there and there's fellowship and there'll be excellent preaching and we're going to lift high the banner of the very end voices.

01:20:06

God blesses it and they shape churches. I always want to encourage pastors, send your people and they will develop an appetite for rich expository preaching and for the doctrines of our faith.

01:20:21

And I think it models preaching. So one of the things the Alliance has been doing, we have our big national conference, but we also have these regional conferences, and this is the

01:20:32

Quakertown conference, has been a great conference. Now, the church there really owns it and really serves it.

01:20:39

Ron Kolder, pastor, really throws everything into it. Yeah, I've interviewed Ron on his triumph over cancer on this program.

01:20:47

Yeah, what a wonderful man. But it's a really worthwhile, and it's not that far, you know, from like New York City and central

01:20:54

Pennsylvania. So this year we're doing the glory of the cross. And I'm actually giving the first and I think the last address in it.

01:21:04

So I am actually. So I've got the opening address, the cross of Christ.

01:21:13

And so I'll be unfolding in a general way, the doctrine of the atonement. Let me say this. If you're a healer and you don't really know what the atonement does, how it works, your faith will be so enriched by a careful, biblical, theological study, which we're going to do this weekend, on what

01:21:34

Christ accomplished. What was God's design in the atoning work of Christ? What was the actual effect?

01:21:42

And I always argue that at the very center of our spirituality should be the person and work of the

01:21:48

Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. So I mean, anyhow a book comes out on the atonement of the cross,

01:21:54

I buy it and read it. And I just, I can't get enough about the cross of the

01:22:00

Lord Jesus, because it stands at the center of my faith. And you know, God did a lot of things for me in Christ, but the central thing

01:22:08

He did was Jesus bore my sins on the cross. Now, do our hearers know? Did He save me from all my sins?

01:22:16

What about my future sins? Did He actually accomplish the atonement, or do

01:22:21

I have to make it effectual? This is, of all the conferences we've done in Quaker town, this is the most significant, because it's on the cross of Christ.

01:22:30

So I'm giving a general address on the cross of Christ at the beginning. I'm concluding with the glory of the cross.

01:22:36

Now, you talk about an address you want to give. I get to preach the glory of the cross.

01:22:41

Can't wait. Amen. Ray Orland's going to be there, he's doing the centrality of the cross and the meaning of the cross.

01:22:49

David Garner from Westminster Seminary, a good friend of mine and a really able theologian and preacher, is doing the offense of the cross.

01:22:57

And then there's workshops like the Power and Practice of Forgiveness.

01:23:06

There's a workshop on the biblical doctrine of hell, which we need to know. So it's going to be a terrific conference, biblically unfolding what our

01:23:17

Lord did for us when Jesus bore our sins on the cross. Amen. And the glory that He gained for Himself.

01:23:25

It'll be great. Amen. And I will be repeating this later, God willing, but the website to go to to find out more about the

01:23:34

Quaker town conference on Reform Theology on the theme, The Glory of the Cross, November 9th and 10th in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania is

01:23:41

AllianceNet .org. That's the website of our friends at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. AllianceNet .org.

01:23:47

Then scroll down to, or actually click on events first. Just go to events and you'll find it.

01:23:53

Amen. And we're going to our final break right now. It's a much briefer break than normal.

01:24:00

So if you have a question before we run out of time, please send us an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

01:24:06

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside the

01:24:11

USA only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away. We'll be right back with Richard D.

01:24:18

Phillips and more on the glory of the cross. My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

01:24:27

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

01:24:33

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

01:24:39

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown

01:24:45

Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

01:24:52

.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

01:25:00

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

01:25:10

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

01:25:17

.nyc. Have a great day. Got to tell you, for my money,

01:25:24

Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best. I think that's what it's called.

01:25:34

This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the

01:25:40

G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.

01:25:46

It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

01:25:52

It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight.

01:25:58

Tons of stuff going on, tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.

01:26:04

And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers, and me, g3conference .com,

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g3conference .com. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

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that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

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That's the Thrivent story. Welcome back, and I just want to, before I return to Richard D.

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01:31:36

We are now back with Richard D. Phillips, our guest, and we are discussing the glory of the cross, which is also the theme of the

01:31:42

Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology. And Richard, I want to say something that I'd love to have your response to.

01:31:49

I have heard a lot of Reformed people over the years complain about modern evangelicalism in that they focus too much on the one -on -one personal relationship with Christ, and they don't look enough to the importance of the corporate body and that kind of a thing.

01:32:09

And that may be true, but I can tell you that the Reformed teaching of limited atonement, also called definite atonement, particular redemption, substitutionary atonement, and even though Arminians in this day and age use that phrase, substitutionary atonement,

01:32:28

I don't think they can logically and consistently hold to that. But the belief, the

01:32:33

Reformed understanding of what Christ accomplished on the cross actually revolutionized my understanding of how personal and intimate my salvation was at the hands of Christ by his grace and by his blood, that Christ, when he died on Calvary, was not just hanging there hoping that as many of the faceless, nameless sea of humanity would come to him and benefit from that death.

01:33:10

When he died, Chris Arnzen was on his heart and mind, and he redeemed me of my sins.

01:33:16

This was something that was accomplished and applied. It was not a hypothetical act.

01:33:24

He did not die to make me savable. He saved me, and I was wondering if you could respond to that.

01:33:30

Oh, I would love to. You know, limited atonement sounds like we have a lower view of the atonement. We actually have a higher view.

01:33:37

Unless you're a liberal who thinks everybody's going to heaven, then you believe there's a limitation of the atonement, and it's one of two ways.

01:33:45

The Arminian believes it's unlimited in scope, but it's limited in efficacy.

01:33:51

Jesus died for everyone, but he did his part. You have to do your part, and it's you doing your part that means that he died for you.

01:33:59

He didn't actually have an intent that he was dying specifically for you. He made himself available to atone for your sins, and you cash the check, as it were, by your faith.

01:34:11

That they believe it's unlimited in scope applies equally to everyone, but it's limited in efficacy.

01:34:18

Well, what the Reformed faith and the Bible teaches is that it is limited in scope. He died for the elect.

01:34:24

He died for all those, and how often, like in John's Gospel, does Jesus say, the people whom you gave to me, all those whom you gave to me will come to me.

01:34:34

The people you gave me, I have made you known to them. He always speaks about those you gave me, and so it's limited to what he says in John 17 .9.

01:34:46

It is not for the world. It is for those whom you gave me, but it is unlimited in its efficacy for their sake, and so it is literally true that if you went to Jesus, I don't mean this in any irreverent way, and you said to him when he was taken at the cross, for whom are you dying?

01:35:05

He would not have said everybody. He would have said, and he'd have gotten to Rick Phillips.

01:35:10

He would have gotten to Chris Arnson. He would have gotten to every believer. He died for me.

01:35:16

He died with an intent that I, foreknown to him and to the

01:35:21

Father from eternity past, chosen in Christ and before the foundation of the world, he died for me.

01:35:27

Now here's some of the immense cash value of that, Chris. It is not true that my sins are atoned for because I believe.

01:35:36

What is true is that I believe because my sins were atoned for. Amen. The God, the

01:35:42

Father, and by the way, the Holy Spirit are working in concert, or the Trinity is working in concert, as you'd expect.

01:35:49

God, the Father, elected from the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1, 4, and 5, certain persons to elect.

01:35:56

Those persons and those only, Christ made atonement for their sins.

01:36:02

The Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost. I am the good shepherd.

01:36:08

The good shepherd laid down his life for the sheep. The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom, not for everyone, but for many.

01:36:19

You shall name him Jesus, for he will deliver his people from their sins.

01:36:25

You have a definite group of persons. Christ made a factual atonement. My sins were atoned for by Jesus, not by me, by making it all work.

01:36:38

It doesn't depend on me. I'm certainly involved. But the reason I believe is because the

01:36:43

Father having elected me, the Son having atoned for my sins, the Holy Spirit working in concert with them, then applied that salvation by the gifts of the

01:36:52

Holy Spirit, regenerating me to saving faith. That was necessary. But it is not true that my sins are washed because I believe.

01:37:03

I believe because Jesus made atonement for me and then sent the Holy Spirit to actually apply that to me through saving faith.

01:37:11

Well, that changes everything. And so now I like to say, he died for me,

01:37:16

I live for him. And I offer a personal gratitude to him because he atoned specifically and definitely for me.

01:37:25

You know, and the unsurety and the man -centeredness of the Arminian view. How could

01:37:31

I know that my sins were atoned for? Well, you have to do this, so it's now on you.

01:37:37

Now, it is true that you have to believe, but that in itself is God's gift to you, Ephesians 2, 8, 9.

01:37:43

And it's God's work in you. And so it's not, I am the recipient, not the producer of my own forgiveness.

01:37:51

And you alluded to this too. It's almost under the Arminian scheme as if we're saving poor

01:37:58

Jesus. And I've heard it preached this way. You don't want Jesus to have died for nothing, do you? Wow. What an appalling thought.

01:38:05

I mean, imagine that being the case for the sovereign son of God. I am not delivering

01:38:10

Jesus from a failed suffering on the cross. No, no, no, no. I am the recipient of sovereign grace by the grace of the

01:38:20

Father. He chose me, apart from any consideration on my part. Sovereign election.

01:38:27

Christ made atonement for me sovereignly, effectually. He didn't place me in an atonable situation so long as I cashed the check.

01:38:36

No, no. He atoned for my sins. And then the Spirit caused me to be born again. He regenerated me.

01:38:43

And so now this is why we have the glory of the cross. It's from start to finish.

01:38:48

God has done it for me. There's no boasting on my part. There's just exulting in the all -sufficient work of the

01:38:56

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, ordaining, accomplishing, and applying salvation, and the accomplishment of it.

01:39:03

We call it limited atonement. That's why we use definite or particular redemption.

01:39:09

It just sounds better. I think it communicates better. Jesus died for me. You know, I love

01:39:14

Hebrews 12 too. For the joy set before him, he endured the cross.

01:39:20

Now what was the joy of Jesus? It didn't look very joyful to me. No, no.

01:39:25

We're told in the Bible there was joy in his heart as he endured the cross. What was that joy? It was in redeeming and atoning for the people he has loved from before the foundation of the world, together with the

01:39:38

Father and Holy Spirit. Amen. I can remember a friend of mine, who's still a friend of mine, who is a non -Calvinist, bordering and often crossing the border of anti -Calvinism,

01:39:53

King James -only friend of mine, fundamentalist Baptist pastor. But I can remember him during a discussion with him over the doctrines of sovereign grace.

01:40:04

He quoted from John 1 29, the next day

01:40:10

John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world.

01:40:18

And I said, Well, let's read it this way. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,

01:40:24

Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

01:40:30

If Jesus taketh away the sin of the world, that would have to only coincide with an understanding of the

01:40:38

Atonement as a definite, particular, and limited Atonement. And it's much more...

01:40:44

There's two problems with that, and it's a valid question. What does John mean by the use of cosmos, world, in John 1 29 and also

01:40:52

John 4 25? Does he mean all persons equally, irrespectively? Plainly, he does not mean that.

01:40:58

You know, in John 4 25, when they called him the Savior of the world, those are Samaritans. Frankly, John uses cosmos, world, in that sense, to mean not just the

01:41:09

Jews, but also the Gentiles. And even in Arminians, they can't be consistent. They use that to argue, to say that Jesus, he had an unlimited

01:41:18

Atonement. But actually, they cannot mean that, because if that was true, no one would be going to hell.

01:41:23

Right. But then they'll say, well, the only sin that will send you to hell is unbelief.

01:41:29

Well, is it sin or is it not? If unbelief is not a sin, why do you go to hell for it?

01:41:35

If it is a sin, and if Jesus paid for the sins of the world, why would unbelief... It just makes no sense.

01:41:42

And so the only two coherent options are the Reformed position and the unbelieving liberal position.

01:41:48

Right. The Arminian position is internally inconsistent. It's a fair question, but when he says,

01:41:54

Behold the Lamb of God, he takes away the sins of the world. The Apostle John means not just the Jews, but also the

01:42:00

Gentiles. That's the sense in which he means world. Right.

01:42:06

And that is interesting, that although we would deny the brotherhood or salvation of universalists—I'm talking about full -blown universalists who believe everything—even the devil, according to some of them, is going to be in heaven—they are more consistent with their understanding of what

01:42:25

Christ accomplished on the cross, because they believe that he actually did redeem all those for whom he died, just as we do.

01:42:36

The tragedy and the heresy on their part is that they extend that to every single being, including at times

01:42:43

Satan, as I said. Well, I mean, at least there's a logical consistency. They're not accepting the

01:42:48

Bible, because the Bible plainly teaches hell, teaches the unbelievers being condemned. But the

01:42:54

Arminian position, which requires that Jesus atone for everyone's sins—but you see, what they're not telling you is, they have limited it in terms of what it accomplished.

01:43:03

The illustration I think is helpful is, Calvinists believe that there's a bridge that's as wide as the elect.

01:43:12

It's a narrow bridge—actually, there's a lot of people on it, like a great multitude on it. More than the stars in the heavens and more than the grains of sand.

01:43:20

But it's of limited scope, but it goes all the way across the bridge. They believe there's a bridge that goes unlimited in scope, but it goes halfway across the river.

01:43:30

Amen. They do not believe that Jesus atoned for anyone. They believe it is a—really, you're saving

01:43:36

Jesus from the ignominy of a failed substitution. And they believe that what you do—and they preach it that way, you know, the classic

01:43:45

Arminian illustration—is Jesus has put the value of his blood in everyone's bank account, but you have to go and open an account.

01:43:54

Well, that is so unbiblical. And again, so who's the key

01:43:59

Savior? You are! And you're relying on the efficacy of what you did, because what

01:44:05

Jesus does accomplishes nothing. The accomplishment is done by you. And frankly, you know, we hate to admit it, but you get the glory for it, because you did it.

01:44:13

Well, that is totally offensive to the Church. Amen. We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says,

01:44:21

What counsel and advice can you give to me when I am speaking with my non -Reformed friends who insist that my methodology of evangelism is horrible, because I do not tell everyone,

01:44:37

Jesus loves you and died for you? Well, I—what's your name again?

01:44:43

Her name is Susan Margaret of Dauphin County, Pennsylvania. Susan Margaret, I also don't say that. And I've trained myself to—we don't want to present the gospel falsely—to say,

01:44:53

Jesus died for you. No, what we need to say is, Jesus made atonement for the sins of those who believe, and he calls you to saving faith.

01:45:01

And if you do not believe, your sins are not committed. Jesus said you will die in your sins. Clearly, those people did not have their sins accounted for.

01:45:09

And so I think that we want to be—without, you know, without being, you know, overly, you know, worried about using the right words, we want to be biblically thoughtful and careful.

01:45:19

And I don't think it's helpful to say, Jesus died for your sins. Well, great, what do I need to do? The Bible teaches that Jesus died for the sins of those who believe.

01:45:29

And therefore—now that's a—it's a vandalistic to say, God's word calls you to trust in the

01:45:35

Lord Jesus Christ so that your sins can be forgiven. Now, we all know that if they believe, it's because their sins were forgiven, and that they were elect.

01:45:45

But that's not—the Bible urges us to do that very thing. Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved. Be reconciled to God.

01:45:51

God has made us ambassadors that you would be reconciled to him. How? By believing. But it is simply untrue to say to people that Jesus died for your sins.

01:46:02

Now, they will go, behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Well, we just—you know, context determines meaning.

01:46:10

And what a lot of our Arminian friends will do is they will mention a verse out of context without carefully doing it, as if that ends the argument.

01:46:20

Now, the problem is, at some point you've just got to stop arguing. But we are honoring the

01:46:27

Lord by presenting the gospel in a biblically accurate way, and it is not accurate to say that Jesus died for your sins to an unbeliever.

01:46:36

Jesus died for the sins of those who believe, and he calls you to be saved by trusting in him. That's what we say.

01:46:41

Now, somebody tell me how that's not a vandalistic. Amen. We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, isn't it true that when it boils down to the essence of the

01:46:54

Arminian argument, they are really saying, even if unconsciously, that Jesus's death saved no one but only men, made men savable?

01:47:06

Well, that is the effect. I don't think they mean that. I think that there is a logical inconsistency that they're not really cultivating.

01:47:15

I don't want to impute their motives. That is the logical implication of what they're saying.

01:47:21

They don't, in most cases, mean that. But what is Arminianism? Historically, Jacob Jacobus Arminius was a humanist who criticized

01:47:30

Calvin's doctrine, not from biblical arguments, but from enlightenment reason.

01:47:36

And what Arminianism just is, is it's arguing against the Bible with secular humanism.

01:47:42

What do I mean? Their fundamental tenet is free will, which the Bible does not teach. But that drives them, you see.

01:47:49

They cannot, because of their pre -commitment to free will, and they also don't believe in total depravity.

01:47:57

So they believe that man is able, prior to regeneration, to believe and be saved.

01:48:03

Now these are, it's easy to show how this is contrary to the Bible, but it's secular humanism, and look, most of us were raised in secular humanism, and that's what makes sense.

01:48:14

And so they've got these commitments that don't allow them to accept what the Bible says.

01:48:20

And so they're being skewed in their doctrine by their commitment to an unbiblical view of man, a denial of total depravity, which the

01:48:30

Bible plainly teaches, you're dead in your trespasses, Ephesians 2 .1. Or I think, you know,

01:48:36

Colossians 1 Corinthians 2 .14, the man without the spirit is not able to receive the things from God.

01:48:43

Well, they deny that, and they have this enlightenment view of free will that frankly warps their whole theology.

01:48:50

I don't think that you're Arminian, you're godly Arminian, you're Jesus -loving Arminian, means to denigrate

01:48:57

Jesus. But we are right to point out that that is the inevitable effect of their argument.

01:49:03

But honestly, hopefully they can see the inconsistency and the implications.

01:49:10

But the biggest thing is, they need to believe what the Bible says about total depravity, and the inability of persons to believe prior to regeneration, and the doctrine of election.

01:49:21

And so they're operating off of a false foundation that, yes, it has the implication he says, but I don't think that's their intent.

01:49:30

We don't want to wrongly impute their motives. And once in a blue moon, though, you do come across an

01:49:36

Arminian who's logically consistent. In fact, I saw in a documentary on the doctrines of grace, a quote from a

01:49:44

Nazarene seminary professor who actually was chastising his fellow

01:49:49

Nazarenes and Wesleyan Arminians for calling Christ's death a substitutionary atonement, because he recognized that if you believe in that and you're logically consistent, you would be a

01:50:01

Calvinist. We don't want Arminians to become logically consistent, because they can't be

01:50:07

Christians if they're logically consistent. Right. No, I mean that! And I'm not trying to push them that way, but you know, lots of people were really that way.

01:50:14

I remember the first time I heard Calvin, I thought it was insane. But it was the Bible, and we trust the

01:50:19

Bible, and the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to lead people into truth. Lots of people are coming to the

01:50:24

Reformed faith. I don't know anybody who's gone from the Reformed faith to Arminianism, but we don't want them to be logically consistent, because they have to deny the atoning work of Christ.

01:50:35

Yes, you said something very interesting. I don't know anybody who I believe was a very knowledgeable Reformed Christian who became an

01:50:47

Arminian evangelical. I know of Reformed people who became apostates and became Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, or some other weird thing, but you just never hear about people who have actually spent a decade or more teaching

01:51:05

Reformed faith who become Arminian evangelicals. It's just fascinating. Well, and we have the privilege, and we should do it in a gracious, patient way, even though there's a lot of slander directed at us by many

01:51:14

Arminians, but we have the benefit of the Word of God. And so the key issue is, here are the key issues, total depravity and sovereign election, both of which are overwhelmingly taught in the

01:51:29

Scripture. And so we want to patiently say, Brother, here's what the Bible says, the man without the Spirit is not able, does not receive the things of the

01:51:37

Spirit of God, and he is not able to. Jesus says, no one comes to me unless the

01:51:44

Father draws him. Paul's teaching on Ephesians 2 .1, you're dead in your trespasses, many places in the

01:51:51

Bible describes the spiritual inability, the inability to believe prior to regeneration, in a way that just makes their doctrine of free will untenable.

01:52:03

So we want to go at the foundations, because frankly, it's the commitment to free will. The Arminian commitment is free will.

01:52:11

And boy, if you remember the open theology controversy a few years ago? Yes. That was Arminians saying, we've got to be consistent.

01:52:19

That's what they call themselves, the open theists. And it led them into rank heresy outside the

01:52:25

Christian faith. So let's not push them that way. Let's not try to win the argument so that we cause them to abandon

01:52:33

Jesus. But we have the privilege of lovingly and patiently allowing the

01:52:38

Holy Spirit to work, to just show what the Bible teaches. Right. And for those of our listeners who don't know what open theism is, it's basically the heresy that God does not know all things that will take place in the future.

01:52:51

He is not omniscient, truly. He is limited in his knowledge of what has not yet occurred, which is obviously heresy.

01:53:00

I don't know if you were there... And to have actual human free will, man has to be sovereign.

01:53:05

Right. And, you know, so... I don't know if you were there at one of the

01:53:11

Philadelphia conferences on Reform Theology when both Dr.

01:53:17

Boyce and Dr. John Gerstner were still with us. The Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology, I cut my teeth on the

01:53:24

Reform faith. Amen. Because I began attending those when I was a brand new Christian. But I don't know if you remember, but there was a moment when

01:53:32

John Gerstner was preaching, and he was comparing and contrasting TULIP Christians, which are obviously

01:53:39

Reformed believers, with what he called DAISY Christians, and he had his own acronym for what that meant.

01:53:45

He had LILAC. That's right, that's right, yeah. And he said, you cannot be a

01:53:54

LILAC Christian, actually believe what you say you believe, and be saved.

01:54:00

And there was like a deathly quiet moment there in the congregation.

01:54:08

That's true. Speaking of the PCRT, this year's PCRT, the

01:54:13

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology, April 26 -28 in Philadelphia, is

01:54:18

Redemption Accomplished and Applied. Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, Liam Gallagher, David Murray, and me.

01:54:26

It's going to be great. That's next year. All the same things. April 26 -28, 2019,

01:54:32

Redemption Accomplished and Applied is our theme. It's Amen. We have time for one more question.

01:54:40

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, why do you think that it seems that so few

01:54:47

Jews, when they become Christians, are Calvinists? Well, Isaiah was a

01:54:55

Calvinist. I mean, Paul was a Calvinist. I'm not quite—I may not be the best qualified person.

01:55:03

I have to say that the Messianic Jew movement is very troubling. I'm delighted whenever a

01:55:11

Jew—I'm particularly delighted, frankly. It is their tree into which we've been grafted.

01:55:17

Amen. And they are—I think Christians ought to have a particular affection and love for Jewish people, that we have for what

01:55:26

God did for them. I'm preaching Genesis now, and Israel is going into Egypt this week, and God bless all

01:55:32

Jewish people. I think, though, that a lot of evangelism has been brought into the

01:55:38

Messianic Jew movement, which really is not fully biblical in a lot of ways.

01:55:44

Often it's radically dispensationalist, which is really not helpful. And so, honestly,

01:55:53

I think in many cases, there's a holding on to Jewishness in a way that the New Testament makes absolutely clear is not to be done.

01:56:01

And so I think that the holding on to the Jewishness of their

01:56:09

Christianity—now, Christianity is what Judaism became. Christianity is the flower in bloom, and Judaism was the flower in bud.

01:56:20

So there's not a Jewish Christianity that distinctively holds on to the old covenant.

01:56:28

No, the old covenant's been replaced by the new covenant. I would encourage all—and I may be not getting all the nuances of what they're actually believing, but I do think that that is a big hindrance to them.

01:56:41

And, you know, dispensationalism, while there's many commendable things to it, it's got massive fundamental issues of theology and hermeneutics, and it's going to keep people from Reformed faith in a pretty strong way.

01:56:54

So that may not be completely culturally right, but I think that's what's going on. Yeah, and it is quite ironic that the

01:57:01

Jews, if they know the Old Testament or their Hebrew Scriptures, they know that God chose a people out from among the nations, not because of anything they willed or because of their goodness or anything.

01:57:15

It's strange that they would want to reject that when they become Christians. And also, the sacrificial system of the

01:57:23

Old Covenant, that had no benefit to the pagan Gentiles all over the world, as they would claim the death of Christ seems to have a benefit for—at least a redeeming benefit, they would claim, for every human being.

01:57:37

It makes really no sense that they would reject a Reformed understanding, because it actually seems to be more in harmony with what a

01:57:44

Jew would expect when it comes to Christ, in my opinion. Well, you may have put your finger on it, Bill, because in the Old Testament, and this is a typology, where what is corporate in the

01:57:53

Old Testament becomes individual in the New Testament. It's also corporate in the New Testament, but it's individual. For instance, it is true that in the

01:58:00

Old Testament, election was typically used of Israel as a nation. And that is a typology for in the

01:58:08

New Testament, where the Church is the Israel of God, but that language is used of the individual believer in the

01:58:16

New Testament. He chose us in Christ. He predestined us. Individuals are predestined.

01:58:22

The Old Testament does tend to use the language of election corporately of Israel. And I wonder if that emphasis on we are the elect

01:58:32

Israel, that the Jews are the elect—well, no, they're not now.

01:58:39

In the Old Covenant, they were the elect typologically of what would be in the

01:58:45

New Testament, where it's the Church composed of elect individuals. So I wonder if the

01:58:50

Jewish emphasis is giving them a wrong New Testament understanding of election and predestination.

01:58:58

I'll bet that's part of it. Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure our listeners have all of your contact information.

01:59:03

The Second Presbyterian Church of Greenville, South Carolina's website is spcgreenville .org.

01:59:11

S -P -C for Second Presbyterian Church, greenville .org. Then we have— All my sermons are up.

01:59:17

Videos of all my sermons are up there. Great. And we also have herewestandgreenville .org for the conference coming up October 12th and 14th, or through the—

01:59:26

You can get it through our website. There's a banner on our website as well. Great. And you can also, for the information on the

01:59:32

Glory of the Cross Conference in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

01:59:38

and click on events. Thank you so much, Dr. Richard Phillips. I look forward to your frequent return to Iron Trip and Zion as a guest.

01:59:45

Let's not make it so long this time. It's great, Chris. Amen. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater