Have You Not Read S3:E12 - Heaven

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the

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Thank you. My name is Chris Giesler and I'm here with Michael Derham and we have a question from one of our listeners.

What is heaven? Wow, what a great question. That's something that many volumes have been written upon, but we'll do our best to answer it in this podcast.

We first hear about heaven in the first chapter of Genesis, but this is probably not the heaven you want to know about, right?

Genesis 1 -1, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. What does that mean?

What is that? Okay, heavens meaning apart from the earth, the heavens and the earth, okay.

Right, so we're talking about the sky, we're talking about outer space. This is the idea of the understanding of how things work in the

Bible. The sky was called heaven. There was what the ancients understood to be beyond the sky, where they would see the stars and the planets in their paths, the tracing of the moon and the

Sun in their patterns. They would understand that as a heaven. Is that like the second heaven? Correct.

So there would be the first heaven, which would be the atmosphere, the sky, and then the second heaven, which would have all of the heavenly lights, the heavenly bodies that governed the day and the night, according to Genesis 1.

And we begin to quickly hear, and even as early as Genesis, we begin to hear about heaven as more than simply the sky, more than simply the place of the stars, the moon, and the

Sun. We know it's a part of creation, but then we begin to hear something else.

In Genesis 15, God tells Abraham to come outside of his tent, look now toward heaven, and count the stars.

God now wants Abraham to begin to look at heaven, to look at the stars, and see more than the governing of the seasons.

That's what they're there for. They were there to govern the seasons, to tell us what time of the year it is. And of course, eventually, with the children of Israel, they would look at the stars and determine, oh, we need to get ready for this particular feast, or that particular feast, because we're moving through the calendar of the year.

But now God wants Abraham to look toward heaven and see there a sign of God's promises, something even more.

And then we come to Genesis 21 and Genesis 22, a story about Hagar and a story about Abraham, a story about Hagar's son

Ishmael, and a story about Abraham's son Isaac. And we can think of that contrast built a little bit later on for us in Galatians chapter 4, but here in these two chapters, something very interesting happens.

God now is talking to Hagar out of heaven. In Genesis 22, the

Lord calls to Abraham out of heaven. Isn't that interesting? And before we've only been thinking about, you know, rain came down out of heaven when the flood came up, and we have the stars in the heavens that Abraham can count, but now

God is speaking from heaven. Why does that make sense? Why does it make sense for God to speak from heaven, and perhaps, you know, rather than from, oh,

I don't know, the earth, right? Right, like, you think in Genesis? From a crack in the earth, yeah.

Adam and Eve walked with him, and they talked to him right there, and then now we have him speaking from a distance.

From a distance, but obviously so close that they can hear. Right. We also remember back in Genesis chapter 11 that when man rebelled against God in the plains of Shinar to build for themselves a city to make for themselves a name,

God came down to look at what. So what is it? The idea that he came down from heaven as they were trying to build the tower up to heaven didn't get anywhere close.

What are we learning about this? The heavens were a place of governance.

The sun, the moon, the stars, God made them for the purpose of governing.

It makes sense that his throne, his position of authority, the place from which he speaks is of even higher authority than that.

We begin to get the glimmer of a concept of a third heaven. Not the sky, not the outer space, but something even beyond that.

Beyond that in terms of authority, beyond that in terms of glory, beyond that in terms of revelation, but not beyond that in terms of space.

Right. Because God is directly addressing Hagar, directly addressing

Abraham, and yet with all this authority. So we begin to hear that God speaks from heaven and we have a plentitude of metaphors throughout the

Bible of God ruling from heaven. His throne is in the heavens, he does whatever he pleases,

Psalm 115. So when we think of heaven, I think we should think first of God's authority.

I think we should think first of God's throne. We should think first of the place from which

God rules and reigns, and of course that extends immediately,

I would think, for our consideration of Christ. Right. How is he described?

From where does he rule? Seated at the right hand of the Father. Right. So his rule and authority is from heaven, and all authority has been given to him in heaven and on earth.

Right. And that even makes me think, when it talks about us in terms of salvation, it says that we are seated with him in the heavenlies.

Now I'm seated with you here in this in this room, but the Bible says I'm seated with him in the heavenlies, which kind of, again, this idea of authority over certain things, maybe a hierarchy positional, where we are positionally.

Yeah, so this this tells us that, in a sense, although heaven is far off in terms of its majesty, its glory, its power, its authority, its highness, right?

You get the idea of the throne of a king, the higher that it sits, the farther he can see, the greater his dominion.

And this was emphasized in the construction of the temple and Solomon's palace in Jerusalem, wherein the temple, in which was the

Ark of the Covenant with the mercy seat, which was called God's throne on earth, God's throne had a higher place of elevation in the city of Jerusalem than Solomon's throne.

Right. Because he was a greater king than Solomon. Right. He's recognizing a hierarchy. He is above,

I am below. Exactly. So even though there is a sense of elevation, which necessarily, as part of the metaphor, means distance, there is an immediacy for God's rule and reign over the earth, his involvement, his sovereignty, his providence, a sense of our being in Christ through faith, united with him, therefore proceeded with him at the right hand of the

Father. So there is a sense of closeness there that we also must reckon with.

Not a closeness in terms of being casual and cavalier, but a genuine reality of our communion with Christ.

Right. I think of the text enter into its own room with boldness, but there's a weightiness to it.

Because like you said, he's the king. Yes. So we've already begun to transition a little bit from the very first scenes that we have about heaven being elevated in terms of authority and glory,

God speaking from heaven, God ruling from heaven. We've already begun to think about that even in the story of Jacob's ladder.

God is way above, mandating his will from above, and executing that will by the means of angels there upon the earth.

And so we've got that, but now what about those who know

God submit to him while they worship him? And then we begin to hear about the creatures that God has made being a part of heaven.

And what is the role of the creature in heaven? It's worship. Right. It's praise.

It's giving glory. It's worship, isn't it? Right. So whether you are a mighty seraphim or a cherubim or you are one made in God's image, worship is what goes on in heaven.

We read of the worship in heaven in places like Isaiah 6 or Revelation chapter 4, and we see that to be in the presence of God in his ruling capacity on his throne is to be put into a position where we worship.

So we understand that heaven is elevated because of authority,

God's authority, not distant as if God doesn't have anything to do with us because he's so far off, but that we are to be confronted in a very real and near way with the authority of God and to worship him.

There is a real sense of heaven being a different place than where we are currently, and this is important for us to understand.

There is a sense in which, yes, we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places. We need to grab hold of that and rejoice in that.

But there's also language that Paul uses, for instance, to be absent from the body is to be present with the

Lord. Well, hang on a second, I thought I could be present with the Lord right now and communing with him. Well, yes, but there's a different way of being present with him after death for the believer.

Paul puts the quandary of his life in these terms. He says, should

I remain with you or should I depart? Depart? Where you going,

Paul? Yeah. Well, in order to go to heaven there is a departure. There is a sense in which there must be travel from one place to another.

If you have Jesus, I must go to prepare a place for you. And if I go, I will come again and receive you to myself.

That where I am there you may be also. There is a sense of there being some sort of separation. I think a lot of people get the idea of heaven being the final destination.

However, it's not the final destination. God made us in his image, and when he made us in his image, he made us a psychosomatic whole, both soul and body together as one.

And when God made man both the inner man and the outer man together, and he breathed the breath of life into the nostrils of Adam, and he became a living being, it was only then that God said, very good.

We get the idea sometimes that very good means that, well, once I escape my aging body or my feeble body, then

I get to go to heaven and finally all will be just as it should be. But that's not what we're told in the scriptures.

What we're told in the scriptures is that if we're absent from the body, we're present with the Lord, but that we have a desire to be clothed with a resurrected body.

And even being with Christ, he'll take care of us in a way that we don't fully understand.

But that the promise is that Jesus will reign from the right hand of the

Father until all of his enemies are placed as a footstool for his feet, and the last enemy thereof is death.

And the idea that we have in the scriptures is that when Christ returns and he raises all the dead, John 5 says, all of the righteous and the unrighteous,

Matthew 25 gives us the same picture, when all of the dead are raised at the last day and death is finally defeated, that then we have something else going on.

We have Christ turning over the kingdom to his Father, and there is some sort of unity and oneness that occurs that was not the case prior, and by every indicator that we have, like the hymn says,

Jesus who died, his victory will not be in vain. Heaven and earth will be one.

And the idea then is that those who are in Christ, who are raised from the dead into a glorified state, are now with Christ, with God, in a way that is full and complete.

They're not lacking bodies. Right. Right. And so, will that be heaven too?

Sure. We'll call that heaven as well. Right. But it's something that was not true prior, because those who depart and are with Christ are awaiting something.

They're waiting for his final vindication. They're waiting for the return of Christ, just like we are.

They are looking forward to the day that they're raised from the dead. Yeah, because, I mean, it says we will be like he is, and he was resurrected from the dead with a resurrection body, and that's the state that we will be in.

Body and soul, freed from sin. I think of Job where he talks about, with yet with my eyes,

I will see him. Yeah, and like you mentioned from 1 John 3, we will be like him because we will see him as he is when when he returns.

So there's going to be a glorified state, a glorified resurrected state, in which everything is going to be different.

So when we think of heaven, we think of it as the place of God's throne room, his authority, his power.

It is the ruling place. It is not to be thought of as far -off distant, but yet at the same time, in a way it is, because even in Jesus's explanations in his parables about the kingdom, he talks about himself as going off on a far journey and then returning.

The question is, when Jesus ascended into the Shekinah glory clouds of God, he didn't go into outer space.

He was ascended up, and then that cloud took them out of their sight. What cloud was that? The same cloud that was on the Mount of Transfiguration.

It was the Shekinah glory cloud of God that we saw back in the dedication of the temple and the tabernacle.

So where did he go? Why can't we see Jesus of Nazareth, who is the Christ, the

Son of the Living God, why can't I not see him right now across from the table like you are? Why can't

I, like Thomas did, put my hands in his wound on the side and on the nail prints in his hand?

Why can't I do that right now? Because he is in heaven at the right hand of God, and one day

I'll see him. Right. But not yet. And when we go to heaven, it's a matter of coming into the direct presence of God and all of his authority and all of his glory, but we have a mediator who is

Christ, and so we can come in with confidence and we can worship the glory of God. Yeah.

I think this touches on some of the discussion about the kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, and some people use the terminology of now and not yet.

Like there's kind of the two states. It is now. There is a sense in which heaven is where God is, and God is over everything and in control and involved, and he is ruling on earth now, and there's another sense in which it's happening through time, and there will be a culmination of all of that.

Yes, that's important that we recognize that not all the promises of God have been fulfilled yet, but they will be, and that's something to look forward to as well.

Very good. Well, I think that about wraps up that question. I appreciate the questions from our listeners.

What about recommendations? I'm reading a book right now. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's called

Is There a Meaning in This Text? The Bible, the Reader, and the Morality of Literary Knowledge.

It's a book written by Kevin J. Van Hooser. It's an academic work textbook on hermeneutics, kind of the history of hermeneutics, considering the progression of philosophy and dealing with some of the concerns of post -modernism, but then also critiquing other aspects of how people are thinking and beginning to, and it really is a pointing towards what kind of presuppositions are you supposed to have when you come to the reading of, well, the scripture or anything, because the interpretation that you have of the scripture ought to be the same hermeneutic you have in every other area of life.

Interesting. I would recommend, this is kind of a light -hearted one. My wife and I stumbled across a

YouTube channel called Blimey Cow, and it's just a couple of homeschooler boys, and they started this years ago when they were younger, and they were just doing skits and kind of talking about different issues with being young, and they've grown up, and now they have a podcast that they do, and they do commentary on different things, but they have different segments that are silly.

They're playing games, they're talking about things in the world, their experiences, music, and it's just kind of a light -hearted, fun thing to watch.

Sometimes they raise some pretty deep questions. I don't agree with them on everything, you know, theologically or stuff, but they're

Christian boys, and just to see how they've managed to do this as a living and support their families is pretty neat, so I'd recommend that.

It's called Blimey Cow. Let's talk about what we are grateful for. Well, I'm very appreciative for everybody who's involved in this podcast.

Joel and Daniel working on the production side of things. I'm thankful for Dylan and Andrew and David that couldn't be here tonight.

I think for you, Chris, this is always an enjoyable time that we get to think about the truths of God's Word together, and answer questions, and just fellowship around His Word.

Right. I am grateful for the Church. In general, globally, we hear about things happening, stories of God's miraculous work in the lives of people in other countries, and in the

Church here in America. I know we can look around and say, man, it's real bad out there, and you know, even some churches are struggling as far as holding to sound doctrine, but ultimately we know that Christ washes

His bride, and I'm grateful for where I've been planted, and I'm grateful to see other men and other congregations growing as well, so just to see the

Church that God is building, and I am grateful for its influence in the world. And that wraps it up for today.

We are very thankful for our listeners, and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and objections with Have You Not Read.