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00:36

Greetings, welcome to the dividing line back in the regular A &O studios and lots and lots and lots of stuff to get to I just saw this posted by James Lindsay who is you're not supposed to ever read anything by James Lindsay because he's an atheist at least that's what some people say

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But here's he says PSA how the media primes the population for compliance. Here's how it works 1.

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X isn't happening. 2. What is happening isn't X. 3. X might be happening, but it's a good thing 4.

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X is happening, but it's optional 5. We need more of X. 6.

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If you oppose X, you're a bad person 7. X should be mandatory. 8.

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Opposition to X should be a punishable offense 9. People fired for not going along with X weren't cancelled

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It was just accountability and 10. Thank our leaders. We have X What stage are we at now?

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that's um We're all over the place depending on which thing you're talking about. But yeah, that's

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That's pretty much pretty much how it works Be watching

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Okay, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna spend any just be watching For Developments That will eventually lead to either we need

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Booster vaccines or we need new vaccines and until the new vaccines are developed. We're back to lockdown.

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Just watch just May not be over the summer but once the fall starts just If you haven't figured out who these people are yet,

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I can't help you It's global. I mean I can talk mainly about what's going on here, but Globally those who want ultimate authority and a totalitarian system without accountability to an electorate

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They think they've figured out exactly how to do it. And maybe they have maybe they have Maybe they did enough work

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Groundwork preparing environment to accomplish it We'll uh, we'll see but just just keep an eye open for that.

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In fact, if you want to know If you want to know What these folks are like did y 'all see this?

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This was last week, but I didn't get a chance to play it This was the

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Ohio House of Representatives You have a representative a woman

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Presenting a Amendment to basically protect women's sports To allow girls to have sports because as we know with the

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Immoral revolution It's extremely anti -woman and We have the woke

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Olympics coming up and I I will not watch any event that has

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Transgender people in it just won't I I would have interest I've always enjoyed the

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Olympics. I've always enjoyed the competition But closing your eyes and engaging in that level of insanity

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Just not gonna do it so if it ends up being the woke Olympics, I'm just You know got plenty of other stuff to be doing lots of books to be reading.

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So Not gonna miss much there But so the here is a woman who is introducing this

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Amendment in the Ohio House of Representatives and so Here's here's how the left behaves.

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This is this is just an excellent example of The left cannot argue this debate they can't they can't debate this issue

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They are incapable of doing it They know it that's why they shout people down and censor them

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Because they can't debate it. So here there's two different views the same event The chair has the amendment the amendment appears to be in order the representative may proceed

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The Safe Women's Sports Act is a fairness issue for women to be able to achieve their dreams and athletics in our state

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Now by the way when it starts happening watch the faces of the representatives behind her too

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I found that rather interesting too. It's crucial to preserving women's rights and the integrity of women's and girls sports

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Across our country treating female athletes are currently losing scholarships opportunities medals education and training opportunities

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This amendment will require schools that are part of the OHS a a to designate separate teams for participants of the biological sex no school no school interscholastic conference or organization that regulates interscholastics shall permit biological males to participate on athletic team or an athletic competition designated only for biological female participants

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Okay, so there's there's the one shot all right here is The shot where you see the people who are acting like Orangutans, okay, they're banging on stuff.

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They're just They're acting like you would see animals acting in the zoo Instead of like you'd see people acting, you know, like in a legislature, you know, we're actually raising

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Serious argumentation. No, no, no here. No. No here. Here we go So There's the guy

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I looked him up he's he's from a an urban area shall we say good

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Democrat Yelling screaming pounding. This is this is the left. This is

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This is the left. There it is. There's no rationality. There's no reason there's there's no way to debate these people

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They can't debate they're incapable of it all I can do is yell scream pound it's

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It reminds well, it's the brown shirts, it's the brown shirts from from Germany that's

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That's how it this how it works. That's how it works Anyway, I just wanted to touch on that I posted a little article on And if you have

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The Alpha Omega Ministries app installed on your phone Then you already received notification when

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I posted my article, isn't that cool? Like yeah, you're all up to 2021 now.

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Yes, we are but I Posted a little little thing there concerning The argument that was first made well made publicly anyways by Tim Keller in 2011 and Then repeated by J .D.

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Greer in 2019 and Then as long as it's been said by J .D.

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Greer, it will be said by Ed Litton at some point about a year afterwards But and and the evidence of that just grows almost every single day

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Whole new videos come out where again, it's not just outlines. It's word -for -word

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It's where it is. It is plagiarism on a level that is Astonishing.

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I I've said it before. Let me say it briefly. Once again I do not know how you stand in front of at any audience let alone in the church behind the sacred desk behind the pulpit and Somehow act

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Like what you're saying is coming from your heart when you didn't write any of it

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You're you're reading something for somebody else now. Look, I know people who have

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Recreated Sinners in the hands of angry God from Jonathan Edwards, which by the way was probably just read from a manuscript and a rather boring voice

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I know people who have acted out Spurgeon sermons and stuff, but everybody knew that's what they were doing

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They would even dress up in the period stuff thing. Okay, that's completely different. It's completely different.

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I Wonder how many people at Ed Litton's Church have known For years because they've they've gone back to what was the earliest one now 2015 or 2013.

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It's ways back They have found these sermons that again were clearly lifted from primarily

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J .D. Greer or Maybe there's something new that's now come into it.

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We'll look at this in just a moment But anyway, I don't have any people that church when they go in there go our pastor doesn't really create sermons

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He just rereads J .D. Greer sermons. I mean, I suppose, you know if you have this multi -campus

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Stuff going down. What does it matter? I Mean you're watching you're watching a performance one way or the other

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So I suppose that's why a lot of folks like yeah, we don't care whatever So anyway,

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I put this little article up and and the reason I did so Was not so much the plagiarism stuff going on, but how?

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bad Argumentation gets repeated simply because the person who made the bad argumentation is granted some level of Evangelical stardom and so You've probably seen it's not difficult to find if you just look up Tim Keller and homosexuality on YouTube I bet you'll pop up An unbeliever

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Was asking Tim Keller probably in New York in front of a primarily unbelieving audience probably in the university someplace

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Oh Just basically said does homosexuality send you to hell and so he wasn't

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Obviously wasn't place, you know expressing the question in an overly Useful or honest fashion, but it's a question was asked

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Keller's response was no. No, first of all heterosexuality does not get you to heaven. I happen to know this

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So how in the world could homosexuality send you to hell and actually the Bible listen this this is this is true

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Jesus talks about greed ten times more than he talks about adultery, for example Okay, so if you've if you've watched it you remember the

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Keller was clearly uncomfortable and he was clearly doing what he could to do the

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New York open -minded person thing Okay But there was the argument

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First of all heterosexuality does not get you to heaven So how in the world could homosexuality send you to hell?

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Now eight years later JD Greer Quote, let me say something very clearly homosexuality does not send you to hell

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And here's how I know that being heterosexual doesn't send you to heaven. I Mean in terms of frequency of mention and the passion with which he mentions it

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It would appear that quite a few other sins are more egregious in God's eyes and homosexuality That was I think from the exact same sermon where he talked about God whispering about sexual sins and all the rest that stuff

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So the next year, of course Ed Litton catches up in his

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Plagiarization and says homosexuality does not send people to hell. How do I know that because heterosexuality doesn't send people to heaven that's in 2020 now

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Aside from the repetition thing aside from the doesn't anyone have original thoughts anymore problem

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The fact the matter is this argument is so bogus and was so bad when

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Tim Keller first Enunciated it it should have resulted in laughter Not only from the person he was talking to but from the audience

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I think the only reason they didn't laugh at it was because they didn't even begin to understand it What is the relationship?

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Who is making the claim that heterosexuality sends you to heaven? Nobody has made that claim

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From a Christian perspective heterosexuality is God's normative created purpose

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That's what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 19 pretty straightforward That's how God created us.

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That's how God made us to continue as a people and so he regulates that and he places strictures upon how that sexuality is to express itself and then the covenant of marriage and All that kind of fun stuff

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But to even begin to to try to make this argument you would have to Bridge the

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Grand Canyon chasm between the normative created status of heterosexuality and the perversity in the biblical authors language of homosexuality

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You'd have to you'd have to okay. Let's bring these together. Let me show you how these are connected They don't they don't do that Keller didn't do it

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Greer didn't do it Lytton didn't do it because he can't do it It's a laughable statement.

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It is it is a categorical error on the level that just makes you go how did he do that and How did anyone ever think that was a good argument?

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I? Mean you have clear biblical teaching homosexuality Outside the parameters it is against the created order heterosexuality is a part of God's created order and therefore violations of its

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Norms are also considered sin So what sends you to hell sin all sins

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Including homosexuality and adultery and fornication and They're all sins that's all plainly taught in Scripture and so It was it was a bogus argument utterly worthless argument at the start

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So why does it get repeated all the time? Why have why have people stood in front of thousands of Christians and repeated this as if this is biblical wisdom

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Well part of it's because of the star culture in evangelicalism part of it's because part of it's because people today

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Don't recognize that you can appreciate someone and At the same time go wow they just face planted that argument

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The idea is you either have to go all in or they're all out so if if Tim Keller You read a

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Tim Keller book that helped you all of a sudden the idea is and so if he says this then that needs to be helpful, too

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Well, it wasn't It was it was bogus. It was he should come out and say folks.

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I'm sorry That was one of the dumbest things I've ever said in my life. You've probably never been in a situation

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I was in I Gave in to the pressure. I apologize. Please stop repeating the dumb thing

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I said That's what he should do Instead what you get is the repetition of the dumb thing as If it's a wise thing, it's like no you can appreciate what he said over there and still go but whoa that one day because Everybody makes mistakes and you can still appreciate things.

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It's that attitude that just a lot of folks just like Really get hung up on on that kind of stuff.

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So the articles up on the theology matters microblog, if you want to take a look at it, including the

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Image of those quotes that I just gave to you and where you can find the reference Well where you once found the references we know that there are certain people who are now doing the

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Ergen -Kanner thing and And seeking to purge the internet of all evidence of everything they ever said at any point in time

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That's what's out there it was out there at some point in time Hey, did you see this just hit before I started the

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Jen Psaki man. She's she scares me I mean, she's weird. She scares me

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I mean, there's the there's the real functional face of the regime. This is But do you know they're gonna be doing going door -to -door

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Yeah going door -to -door. I hope I'm home when they come by. Oh, no. No. Oh, no.

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No, I'm I'm Looking forward to when those poor folks come by Because I want to ask my questions

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I'm gonna say, okay, let's start with the three and four year safety data Could you could you pull that out of it?

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Could you show it to me? So so they're gonna find out what happens when Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses come to your house.

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Oh, yeah Big time. Yeah, I'm gonna have stuff ready to go. We're gonna we're gonna be talking about parrot pericarditis and all that fun neat stuff and They're gonna be going.

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Yeah. Have a nice day, sir They they go hoping to find a Jehovah's Witness of it.

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Yeah, we gotta get going. Yeah Yeah, you all come on by mm -hmm

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I'm looking forward to that It's gonna be fun, okay speaking of plagiarism

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By the way, I Ended up doing four

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Weeks in a row preaching an apology. Yeah, that was not planned four weeks in a row and I've been doing a

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Series on baptism. I'm not sure how long this thing is gonna go. I Think we're at at least six, maybe seven.

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I need to go back and double -check that but let's say we're at six sermons right now We've got one more to go in acts before we even get to The specific teaching passages on baptism.

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I'll be looking at as examples so far So I'm thinking I'm thinking 12 to 15 by the time we get done with this probably and So obviously at some point that'll be made a list

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Made available for downloading for when all of our YouTube stuff disappears anyways But here's here's my challenge to all the

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Ed Litton fans out there Find the plagiarism Because I can assure you there ain't none

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I can show you the notes I took in the pulpit and in almost every single instance

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It was simply a list of verses That I want to make sure to cover that was that was all there is to it.

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What are you laughing at? All right. Are you seeing Twitter right now? Woke Bible. Well, I know

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I remember woke Bible just put up there Killing people doesn't send you to hell because not killing people doesn't get you to heaven well,

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I said I Said in my article. I said that that that argument makes as much sense as saying

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Murdering does not send you to hell because having babies doesn't send you to heaven, right? that's exactly the same argument and It's so absurd that I I just I even know how it crossed his mind

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But then it ended up on the internet and then it started getting repeated and it's just like people stop think

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I'm just waiting for all the memes to start coming out of this logic Can you imagine all the different examples under the

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Sun of what? Ten years ago, that's crazy. It was ten years ago.

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My whole point is this this plagiarism stuff has demonstrated

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That really really really bad arguments will get repeated as long as you think that that's what people want to hear That's the so here's so here's the here's the issue.

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I Had never heard of this group, so I don't even know how to pronounce Docent I'm assuming it's the do c -e -n -t sounds like docent docent docent

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Docent there's all sorts of somebody's last name But the docent research group, okay,

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I'm sorry folks I I don't live out there evidently there's a lot of folks are going. Oh, yeah, it's been around a while and and It's it's just hard for me to express how foreign to my thinking the idea of getting somebody else to Do your work for you?

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I Might have been two or three debates Where I've actually asked folks.

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Hey, could you look up something along these lines? Could you could you find I'm seeing stuff about this There might have been two or three debates where I had

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One or two people that might have looked a thing something up for me so I could find some reference sources something like that but But all the rest stall me and it wasn't that they wrote anything for me it says oh here's some references

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Oh, okay. Great. Like today we get back into Gregory. I left I Left the

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Greek for Gregory's confession We've been looking at in the wrong subdirectory on my on my main laptop, which is at home

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It wasn't in the cloud backed up one. So I didn't have access to it here. So I Happen to know

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I happen to have a good friend Who is a church history expert who was still awake gives you an idea.

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It's ahead of me in time And I just took the shot. Hey, do you have that available?

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I've got it now So yes, there you go. Someone helped me out with that and you might be going.

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Well, who was that? well, it was it was a resource that just provided for me and You can sort of figure out how many church history professors do

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I know? Well, actually a few come to think of it. But anyway, so That's complete

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I just the idea of walking into a pulpit or you know walking in and Having somebody hand you your script because I've always

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I'll be honest when when Greer does his My left arm will always be three times larger than my right arm because I preach the entire time holding a

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Bible But what's I'm actually I'm not looking at the Bible. I have this is my manuscript and so I stand there and This is how

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I preach All the references and stuff are in the manuscript so it's sort of like you walk in here's your thing

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Here's what you need to do I don't I can't preach that way and I would it would never never cross my mind that that people do but people do and so I discovered this docent research research group and Rob Bob Gagnon And you you referenced rich referenced a

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Facebook article from Bob Gagnon where Bob Gagnon talked about this docent research group where JD Greer had written an endorsement for them saying you guys make me look good and I'm like, what is a what is a docent of what and so I You know you do your quick search duck duck go search and You pull them up so here's

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Here's one of the it's fancy website, you know real You know graphically rich type website and so here's just one of the pages on the docent docent research group and It says it's pretty small there, but he says it says research details our research team offers services ranging from book summaries

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To congregational surveys to sermon prep and planning assistance

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When you partner with docent you're extending your research capabilities and guaranteeing

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That you'll have the resources you need to do your job. Well learn more learn more and so evidently you can get an account and And I Don't know what this costs.

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I Don't know if it's a per sermon thing. I don't know if you can get an account and say, okay

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I want you to Maybe you can like fill in the thing about how big your church is how many people attend?

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What's the demographics? Where you located and maybe you'll get back this really

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Snazzy cool thing that you know in your area. This is this is how you should dress and You shouldn't have a pulpit.

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You should have a pulpit this kind of music is you I mean there are people to do that So maybe this is something like that but notice book summaries to congregational surveys to sermon prep and planning assistance and So when

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I threw this out somebody on Twitter threw back Because because one of the questions

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I asked is Okay So are the people a docent are they ordained elders or Who are they?

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I mean if you get a sermon outline, do you know who prepared it? What where'd they go to school?

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What's their training? What's their denomination? What's their theological confession?

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Do you know? Do you literally go in and say I want 70 %

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Calvinistic Millennial and Gen Z what do you just like click stuff to how does this work?

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I I can't I can't imagine but evidently because then someone else on Twitter had said

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I I think if I recall correctly it was

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Bill Roach. I think Bill Roach had said That when this this happened, what's the bill

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Roach? I'm sorry bill if it wasn't you Someone had said and I thought was

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Bill Roach That there's probably like a Q source in other words the reason there's all this similarity and the same phraseology and stuff like that is

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There's probably a Q source and maybe it is docent because more and more people are using it

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I Suppose that's possibility I mean, that's not what

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Ed Litton said when this first started coming out. He said that he had

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JD Greer's Permission and knowledge and so on so forth

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So that's not what he said it wasn't wasn't no I was using this docent group and they sent us the same stuff

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I don't I don't know but You have no idea who these people are and so do you like get an outline and then check it out?

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Because remember when Ed Litton first started responding to this he's going Well, you know we have this eight person team and so we spend time doing the language work

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Really Really I'm sorry if you're reading someone else's outline word -for -word

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Don't look me in the eye and say you did language work. Where are you gonna stick that in at? Huh?

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Come on. You're not doing language work But we do the language work and the commentaries and blah blah blah

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We do all this work if you're reading somebody else's sermon. Why are you doing any of the rest that stuff?

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None of it makes a lick of sense But so you have the docent research group.

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I think honestly Everyone in every church has the right to know

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Whether what they are hearing in the ministry of the word in their services is coming from the actual study experience and mind of their pastor or from a nameless faceless second -year seminary student

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Barely getting by making a few extra bucks doing sermon outlines and Selling them online.

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Yeah so I Think there are a lot of churches.

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I think there are a lot of churches Where people should be going? Hey You know

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Hmm. Hey pastor What what about it? Yeah, I think that would be well well worth knowing all about Okay, now this is a video that I was directed to a while back and I It's Dr.

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Frank Turek answering a question on Roman Catholicism. I on Twitter a couple of times, you know sent tweets going.

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Hey, let's you know, I linked to it and I said, let's have a conversation about this.

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I think this is really really important. I wrote to his personal email address And I've gotten nothing

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I've gotten no not even a polite no, thanks Got nothing.

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I Can't prove that he's gotten any of this stuff. So maybe once I make comment

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Again, the invitation is open to have a discussion about this because I think this is really really really really important stuff

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And especially in light of what we've been doing for I don't know 30 years.

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Yeah good 30 years in this ministry here is you know, Frank Turek does these sort of off -the -cuff question things

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In various audiences and so let's take a listen to this particular one

32:54

Actually Here we go. I have a sister who used to be a

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Christian and now as an atheist and I have a father who's an atheist and I have a mom who she's raised

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Catholic all her life and she's now living in my house and We're struggling because she's dying and She Won't come to church with us

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She's insisting that we bring her a priest, but we can't find a priest that she will approve of Because it doesn't meet her standard and she won't accept my husband who's an ordained pastor and She wants to take communion, but she won't accept it from us

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We're we can't win and we can't seem to help explain to her

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Okay, let me just let me just interrupt it for a second It's hard to Respond to personal situations like this in a public setting when you know nothing about any of the people involved

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You don't know anything about the church. You don't anything about their really don't know almost anything about their theology you can

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It's scary to assume Things because you can assume the wrong things and then give a completely irrelevant answer once they then clarify later on So it's tough

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It's tough dealing with the personal questions like this But I Would like to think that in light of What has happened in the past in light of the

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Reformation in light of the New Testament? that Some of the response here would be well, what's what's vitally important here is she seems to believe?

34:57

in this concept of a priest and If you know what Roman Catholicism teaches about the priesthood then we're talking about a sacerdotal priest we're talking about a priest with with special powers of forgiveness and special sacramental powers

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That are completely unbiblical. There is there is not a shred of Evidence that the

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Apostles ever taught anybody to ordain someone call them an altar

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Christus another Christ and Imbue them with sacramental powers of transubstantiation or anything that is

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Thoroughly and completely unbiblical and So the issue is to communicate what the gospel is and the gospel for a

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Roman Catholic is What brings them peace with God she doesn't have peace with God She is looking to do something she is looking to receive something to get peace because Roman Catholicism Lacking a finished work of Christ Because in in the

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Eucharistic sacrifice you have the representation in an unbloody manner of The sacrifice of Christ in a propitiatory fashion, so it's not finished for the individual

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Since you do not have the imputed righteousness of Christ that's specifically denied

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Then you're looking to the sacrament to provide you with some semblance of peace as you face death and So the the

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Christian response here is to present the gospel Because you have someone who clearly has been given a false gospel

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They are looking to something outside of the finished work of Christ now the problem that we're gonna hear is that those who have

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Who promulgate and have bought into what I call the mere Christianity position and it's not specifically

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CS Lewis It is the idea that Christianity can be boiled down to Believing in God and Believing in the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus and That that death, burial, resurrection has something to do with salvation

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But then you have to draw a very strong line and say but we can't say what? in other words people who say that the gospel and How you are justified before God is

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Not a definitional doctrine of the Christian faith. Well because there's so many just there's so much disagreement so you boil it down to God maybe

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Trinity death, burial, resurrection of Jesus and then draw the line you you cut off the rest of the apostolic message, which included the gospel itself and Say this is what we need to have.

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This is this is sufficient. This is enough and We'll let God sort it all out later

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There are a lot of feet a lot of people who take this position and It's very popular today It allows you to be ecumenical allows you to say what you know,

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I don't agree with what Rome is saying but You know, we're all still on on on the same side and all this type of stuff.

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Okay, so The difference in The response that I would give and the response that will be given is based upon That fundamental distinction and I think it's a fundamental distinction that the

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Apostles themselves plainly made so let's Let's listen in I mean, it's like Jesus take the wheel.

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Yeah, I don't even know what to do. Why not ask her this. Why do you think Jesus came mom? What would she say?

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She said well, he came to take away my sin Okay, and in the Catholic Mass when they do the

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Eucharist They are they believe they're sacrificing Jesus again, correct, and they're okay.

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No, that's not no Um It's it's best to be accurate here

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They are Representing in an unbloody fashion a perpetuatory sacrifice through Making Christ present upon the altars of the miracle of transubstantiation, but they would never say we are sacrificing

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Jesus again That that sets you up for easy refutation from the Roman Catholic side really easy

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Refutation from the Roman Catholic side. That's not that's that's not accurate What is being said is thoroughly unbiblical, but you need to define it correctly to demonstrate that it's unbiblical

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So don't don't make that mistake Because that that sets you up for the the solid

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Roman Catholic apologists who will Make you look silly if you say things like that The guys brought up in the

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Catholic Church, okay. Yes, so They are consuming his body and that's what okay.

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That's not something I'm gonna argue over. There's no reason to argue about it Except that's what her faith is directed to That's the falsehood

40:56

That is causing her to look to a false priest and a false system for a false assurance

41:06

So I'm not gonna argue about whether Christ Sacrifice is once for all or whether it is a representation that does not perfect here's where if you don't have a meaningfully robust doctrine of the

41:25

Atonement causes real problems Real problems real -world problems not just theoretical ones or theological ones real -world problems

41:36

But if she understands that Jesus came to save her and if she puts her trust in him she confesses with her mouth that Jesus is

41:45

Lord and Believes in her heart that Jesus has been risen from the dead. She saved.

41:51

Yes. Okay. Okay, so what you have is the assertion that The Judaizers were not really in Athens Right Because the

42:08

Judaizers believed all that there is no evidence in the book of Galatians that the

42:13

Judaizers Were heretical that they denied the existence of God they denied the deity of Christ They denied the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus.

42:23

No, they believed all those things What did Paul describe them as? The Greek term is pseudo

42:30

Delphoi false brothers and He said they were anathema.

42:38

So The question comes down to is the gospel

42:47

Necessary to salvation or is it not? So to simply go well as long as you believe

42:56

Because because what does it mean to say Jesus came to deliver you from your sins how? By what means is it not clear that the

43:09

New Testament writers believed that what you believe about that is Definitional as to whether you are walking in the light or walking in darkness

43:18

It's not only important about what you believed about Jesus, but what Jesus did so To go well as long as someone has just this a partial confession over here

43:35

They believe falsehood over here. They're looking to they have a false hope in a false priest and a false system and The stuff

43:47

I'm not gonna argue about because you said I'm not gonna argue about the transubstantiation stuff and the mass stuff and all the rest of that stuff

43:52

But that's what her faith is focused on but as long as she's got this stuff over here ticket -punched

43:59

We're good. And the result is what you're saying is don't try to communicate those things

44:07

Don't try to explain To her the finished work of Christ The reason you can trust in him and not have to have some priest

44:23

Who is going to leave the room eventually and now you're back to Well, was that enough?

44:31

Because her eyes aren't on the source of salvation the author and finisher of faith I mean really when you boil it down what's being said here is all that Reformation stuff.

44:43

We blew it We completely blew it it was irrelevant It didn't matter at all

44:51

You all made a huge mess and it didn't matter That's that's scary.

44:59

It really is Just ask her that Okay. Yes any kind of ritual she wants to go through accommodate her

45:07

Okay, because any kind of ritual she wants to go through accommodate her

45:13

Um Okay, she can't go through it but how about circumcision What did

45:20

Paul say You do that and you're cut off from Christ But how do you say this?

45:27

I don't There's such a huge disconnect here. I Don't even see how it follows fine

45:35

You're not gonna divide over that. Look my mom is Catholic, right? She'll come to this church and she'll go to Catholic Church the same day

45:45

I Would not laugh about that That is not something to laugh about Because what he's saying is my mom has no understanding of the vast difference between the gospel of this church and the gospel of that church that's what's being said and If you're really saying it whatever religious rituals you want to do hey if you want to if you want to do the

46:17

Jewish laws and sacrifices and Observe days and Sabbaths and all that you go ahead.

46:25

No problem I'm like what happened to acts and Galatians and Romans and all that stuff

46:34

It's been boiled down to a well, we're not gonna argue about that. Well, we have to We have to it's it's there in the text and Without the text you got nothing left

46:50

Yes, well, I just keep thinking about all the circumstances in the Old Testament where you know They kept bringing in the all the foreign gods.

46:57

Let's have a few ceremonies with them, too. Let's do some bail stuff, huh? I mean Revelation to big deal right, you know all those churches that were you know

47:07

Jesus was upset with and called them names Well, you know you're talking about the churches there.

47:14

You're not talking about those individuals. I guess I don't know But I yeah, I was I was going what?

47:23

She knows how she saved Okay, right I just can't get it. What she understands the gospel.

47:30

She knows how she saved Okay, if she understands the gospel why she's still going to Roman Catholic Church again because this definition of the gospel has been so Minimized as to cut out all the controversial stuff like faith alone grace alone

47:48

Christ alone all that gone That stuff's that That Maybe even

47:56

Paul was wrong to have been arguing about that stuff. Who knows? but He was It's not where you go to church that saves you right?

48:05

That's true. It's not it's the message that you believe in and this woman believes she needs a

48:12

Priest who's called an altar Christus to bring her peace with God before she dies That should tell you

48:20

She's not trusting in the gospel This is why I get a lot of questions from people because mostly I go to Protestant churches

48:26

And I'll get a question from someone who'll say do you think Catholics can be saved and I always say look? I even think some

48:32

Baptists can be saved Yeah, now that's it again that's a that's a

48:40

But what does that I mean, I certainly don't believe all Baptists could be saved But why not because all

48:46

Baptists aren't trusting in the gospel But the issue here is is

48:51

Rome's gospel a saving gospel. It would be so much easier for me to say

48:58

Yes It'd be so much easier Especially these days with all the pressure upon us to to get along and and Cooperate and always for me to simply go, you know sure, why not and Then you get into you know

49:18

The conversation that Doug Wilson and I had a number of months ago on sweater vest dialogue where we were talking about GK Chesterton and and you know, obviously

49:32

Doug thinks GK Chesterton was better than his theology and He's certainly hoping he was but even he had to say look if his trust was really in that broken reed in that Fault system, then yeah

49:48

I just get the I just feel like from what he said that that's really wasn't where it was even that's what he said and So we come out for that from different perspectives.

50:00

I understand what he's saying, but it doesn't change the fact there's still only one gospel there's only one message and Paul said to those individuals

50:14

Who would think that there was anything they could add to the work of Christ That is appropriated solely by faith through God's grace

50:26

That they're cut off from Christ That Christ will not be a co -savior.

50:33

It would be so much easier if that wasn't in the text of Scripture and I do sit there and go

50:39

I So hope in my heart That this individual and that individual and that person and in that denomination over there and that denomination

50:48

I really hope That their their true faith is better than their profession but I must must must

51:01

Extend myself to try to warn them that what you're saying is is false

51:07

What you're saying is is destructive If I care for them if I love for that and that makes it tough

51:17

That makes it hard. There's there's no two ways about it But just skipping it

51:23

Doesn't doesn't do us any good Where you go to church is whether or not you've accepted the free gift of salvation

51:30

Correct. If you're looking for a priest to give you peace You have not an understanding of what the free gift of salvation is

51:41

Right So you need to just if she's accepted the free gift of salvation

51:48

Mom, when you're dying, you can have anything you want. You want to bring you a Big Mac every every whatever you want mom

51:55

Okay, so I would I would back off arguing with her and just right if she saved if she is just give her whatever

52:01

She wants give her gummy bears every meal. Okay. No that here's the issue. I have well, all right, okay

52:07

That's meaningless. I'm sorry. That's just that's that's making light of an Rather important subject gummy bears and cheeseburgers what she's asking for a priest

52:19

She's asking for an a sacerdotal Forgiveness from Rome.

52:25

That's what she's asking for. That means her faith is not focused upon a finished work of Christ and it'll never give her peace and so you just to back off and Leave her in that situation

52:39

Is that really we're being told here not not not my response

52:47

She believes that if she cannot give confession Mm -hmm.

52:52

She's gonna die in her sin and right because she's a good Orthodox Roman Catholic and doesn't understand the finished work of Christ and doesn't have peace with God Therefore having been justified by faith.

53:07

We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ They don't believe that Who is the blessed man of Romans 4 7 through 8 in Roman Catholicism?

53:18

There is no blessed man because every sin you commit is imputed to you because there is no non imputation of sin so yes

53:28

Whether Christ's righteousness is imputed to you or not is central to the gospel

53:35

That's the whole point Yep, it's right there. I She what do we do when she won't approve of?

53:47

The person we're bringing her. Well, if she won't approve of the person you're she you're bringing her

53:53

Then she really must not believe that she's going to purgatory To burn off her sins that are unrepentant before she can go to heaven.

54:00

Okay now now dr Turk says he's former Catholic, but he does not understand Catholic theology Okay, he's he's got some pretty shallow understanding because that's not what purgatory is

54:13

In fact, I happen to have a here's I was good But the rate rate we're going

54:18

I'm not gonna get to it I was gonna talk a little bit about a debate that I heard part of we'll get to it next time called the birth

54:25

Purgatory, this is Jacques Legoff's work on that subject. Um, But Purgatory is for those who die in a state of grace.

54:38

She said she's concerned about dying in her sins. No You must die in the state of grace.

54:44

You must be justified Purgatory is for the purging not of the sins.

54:50

It didn't get forgiven but of the temporal punishments of sins over against The type of punishment mortal punishments that destroy the grace justification so That's off off to the side

55:05

If she's afraid of dying in her sins, that's a salvation issue even Roman Catholicism So purgatory sada spasio is the suffering of atonement and purgatory for the temporal punishments of sins rather than eternal punishments of sins

55:22

Uh, so dr. Turk doesn't seem to understand the distinction is And hence is missing being able to give proper a proper response to this woman

55:32

If anybody knows who this lady is, would you let her know? There's other people who can provide a better response.

55:38

Um and that is She is trusting in a system rather than the finished work of Christ and that's false gospel

55:51

Because purgatory is true and I don't see biblical support for it But if it is I'd grab any priest off the street and say, you know before i'm about to go

56:01

Okay, okay great, thank you. All right. Thanks Well frank if you'd like to talk about that, um

56:13

I think it would be very useful to folks. We could do it in the big studio and Because I think

56:22

I don't believe that was A response that is consistent with the reformation

56:31

I really don't and Explaining that more fully might be useful on a lot of lines a lot it might be

56:41

Okay, I knew I was going to get late on this. Um, but I I want to spend at least a few minutes

56:47

We may go a little bit longer. Uh But I wanted to get back to at least for a few minutes because i'm really enjoying it

56:53

I don't know if anybody else is but we Started a response.

56:59

We we commented on remember dale tuggy was on um jake's the muslim metaphysicians thing and he went off after me just Unprompted just went off after me and I hate william lane craig

57:14

And he was lying about me and all the rest of stuff and you know They're afraid of william lane craig because they don't understand that there's not philosophers and just this incredibly arrogant dismissive

57:25

I mean, he must run into walls a lot with his nose so high up in the air type of stuff Um, but one of the one of the comments that he made was that there were there were no trinitarian theories

57:34

Until well after the council of nicaea now I think dale tuggy really thinks that he is so Advanced in this field that he can actually make up phraseology and all the rest of us

57:46

Just simply have to agree with whatever it is. He says But it is so painfully obvious to the rest of us benighted folks

57:53

That for example ignatius the last program I I read from ignatius is

58:01

Incredibly high christology of jesus in his letter to the ephesians where he talks about there's one physician

58:07

Generate ingenerate god and man true life. I mean very much the same language that you're going to end up with at nicaea super high christology hypostatic union level type stuff and yet this is 107 108 ad

58:24

And we can trace This kind of belief from the most primitive sources back into the new testament itself

58:34

And so there is a continuity Are there people who have lower views of course, but there is a continuity of the best

58:45

That comes from the new testament all the way through nicaea all the way through to calisthenon

58:51

And so one of the examples that we are looking at In older works, you'll see his name is gregory the wonder worker or thalmatrigus um, but it is a little more consistent to say gregory of neocessaria because It's well john chrysostom goldenmouth.

59:14

Okay, so there are some that are identified with some Type of name other than where they were but gregory of nisa basil cesarea are generally geographical descriptors anyway so around 265 so 60 years prior to nicaea

59:36

Gregory wrote a confession of faith and we've been looking at it and I hope you find it as Interesting as I do

59:45

I had actually um Left I made a mistake make a lot of mistakes.

59:51

I left the pdf of an article. It has the greek of it in the wrong sub directory at home and Once again, a dear friend of mine

01:00:01

Rescued me and sent it to me so we could look at it But what we were looking at was the description given of jesus

01:00:11

We already saw That the Confession as gregory wrote it is laid out very similar to the nicene symbol so you have

01:00:23

One god one lord and we looked at first corinthians chapter eight and we saw how paul takes the shema

01:00:29

And he takes the greek of the shema the the translation the greek septuagint And he expands it out and makes application to father and to son, but he applies the divine name kurios yahweh to To jesus

01:00:44

And so though people will look at there is one god

01:00:51

And say that's the highest and then what lord is lesser than god That's not what you would get if you were reading the shema in hebrew and so Back, uh last week as we were wrapping up on the programs when

01:01:07

I was on the road in uh in the fifth wheel We had just started looking at we had read through The description he gives in the second paragraph of the one lord

01:01:19

And it has been well said that the driving force In the clarification of issues regarding the trinity was the

01:01:31

The new testament revelation of who jesus is and i've said that all along what is what is the essence of the revelation of the

01:01:38

Doctrine of the trinity it is the person. Oh, you're trying to put that up there and you know That's not never gonna work too small. Um, yeah.

01:01:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No um I just got those there so I can see them.

01:01:51

Um, and the greek is almost too small for me to see um the driving force is

01:01:58

The revelation of jesus is the the essence of the revelation of the trinity Is the incarnation?

01:02:06

Death burial resurrection of jesus christ outpouring of the holy spirit happened in time happened in history It takes place between malachi and matthew

01:02:15

And everything written in the new testament afterwards is written in light of That revelation has taken place in history

01:02:23

So the new testament is a trinitarian book is written by trinity by experiential trinitarians Who had experienced?

01:02:31

And now we're experiencing the presence of this great revelation of the one god in their own experience so When you look at the description of jesus here, it is rather full

01:02:47

Again, this is still 110 years approximately after the incredibly high views of ignatius, so we shouldn't be surprised by this and can we

01:03:03

Recognize that some of the language is now being influenced by the fact that the church is needing to answer objections uh the age of the apologists, uh 100 years earlier, uh celsus's attacks the true doctrine upon Uh upon the christian faith and things like that Yes, definitely

01:03:24

But listen to what is said there is one lord The only one from the only one

01:03:34

That's manas ek manu manas ek manu only from only

01:03:44

Now immediately you have to recognize What is behind this is a recognition of the unique nature of christ you?

01:03:53

You would never use this language of a mere creature

01:03:59

Whoever Who would ever say manas ek manu of moses or isaiah or of an angel michael gabriel whoever

01:04:13

No, and yet there's a distinction being made Manas ek manu so there there's no confusion of the persons

01:04:27

And yet there is The same nature unless you're going to have multiple gods which

01:04:36

The very first phrase was haise theos the next phrase theos ek theu

01:04:46

God from god that's nicaea That's nicaea god from god

01:04:53

So is gregory the one that made all this stuff up? No because we've already seen that this is consistent

01:05:01

With those who've gone before And their confessions of faith god from god

01:05:10

Not a god from a god or a lesser god from a greater god

01:05:19

All of this language is seeking to do justice to the depth of the new testament revelation

01:05:27

Which is why all unitarians have to absolutely gut The new testament of its depth of revelation about jesus

01:05:38

They have to Watch watch any unitarian just Lose their minds on john 2028 um

01:05:52

It it's always Sadly entertaining to listen to unitarians try to explain thomas's confession um

01:06:05

But thomas would have understood theos ek theu because that's what he was saying

01:06:11

Um Carakter kai ikon teis theatetas. Now I talked about this briefly.

01:06:17

I was sort of rushing it that last time So if i'm going back over something don't worry about it. I realize that I am karakter kai ikon character and image teis theatetas and I think this is sort of where we had to speed up last time because I did mention to you

01:06:37

But look it up That this is the very term that is used in colossians 2 9

01:06:43

Hati enauto katoikai ponta play roma teis theatetas somaticos For in him is dwelling all the fullness of deity in bodily form that which makes god god

01:06:54

The very essence of god it's a high term it is more specific In its definition than theatetas or theod

01:07:06

Which is translated by the king james as godhead Unfortunately, they also translate theatetas as godhead.

01:07:13

It's the the king. I'm sorry I'm gonna lose a few people here, but the king james rendering of these these phrases is inferior

01:07:22

New king james recognizes that uh modern translations recognize that this was a

01:07:29

An area that the king james translators as great as they were Didn't do the best job

01:07:35

They did not recognize or did not bring out the distinction That you have in romans 1 20 his divine character theates versus theatetas

01:07:48

So in colossians 2 9 it's that fullness of what makes god god that dwells in him in bodily form

01:07:55

And so that's how he can be the catech ter that of course is the term

01:08:02

That is a stamped representation An exact representation, which again makes no sense of a mere creature

01:08:14

You cannot Have the very essence of god stamped upon a creature

01:08:21

Because it's too big for the creature. The creature is way too small Let alone to identify

01:08:28

Uh, the the kurios as the icon of deity

01:08:37

The the reason that we can have absolute certainty That we know

01:08:44

Who god is and what his purposes are is because we have jesus Because we have jesus he is his character and icon image

01:08:56

Hence he can be the perfect representation to us Of god

01:09:04

The lagas energas The all -accomplishing lagas or the it's the energetic lagas

01:09:15

And that term energas the energia the energies In eastern theology

01:09:24

Really different again Western folks struggle mightily

01:09:31

To even begin to try To build categories in our minds for Eastern orthodox thinking about the energia and about things like this.

01:09:44

It's it's very rare for Western thinking christians to even make the attempt

01:09:53

Um obviously that can be taken and Become incredibly

01:10:04

Unbiblical in practice So when I was in ukraine My dear friend took me to various places.

01:10:11

We went to some orthodox churches and some shrines and things like that and and he was talking to me about how

01:10:18

The orthodox women will talk will go to places where the energia is

01:10:25

And to be honest with you functionally It ends up taking on the same folk religion

01:10:33

Type thing that we were just talking about with the the woman who's wants the priest it's a

01:10:42

Uh, I need to go to a certain place. I need to have a certain person. It's that sacramental concept

01:10:51

That once it's divorced from biblical revelation Creates all sorts of havoc and falsehood uh, but the energetic log the the

01:11:05

The logos is the one creating and sustaining so he has power. He has he is doing this this this maintenance of um

01:11:14

Of these things the the wisdom who embraces the fashioning of all things the

01:11:24

Uh the sophia Again, very common for people to have seen echoes

01:11:30

Of who jesus is in wisdom in the old testament um, especially in proverbs

01:11:38

Because wisdom is involved in creation. And of course the logos being the word of the wise god

01:11:45

You see the the connections that are there Obviously unitarians try to then go well wisdom was created and as if god was once unwise i'm not sure how that works, but anyway uh, they try to go that direction with it, but How do we know of god's wisdom except that he has revealed that in what he has accomplished and The greatest revelation of that is of course the person of christ um

01:12:13

But again all this terminology and I haven't gotten through all of it.

01:12:18

Um All this terminology could never ever ever ever be applied to a mere creature

01:12:27

It's not possible And so here in 260 long before nicaea decades before nicaea and in consistency

01:12:38

With those who went before and we could trace this line from From ignatius

01:12:45

The epistle to diognetus, uh clement the real clement, uh, irenaeus

01:12:52

We can trace this line through And see the consistency all the way back to the new testament documents

01:13:01

It is important to be able to recognize that but i've now gone 12 minutes past when I was supposed to go.

01:13:06

I apologize for that I knew I was going to go long, but I figured since I had

01:13:13

Made the effort to grab hold of this information I even said

01:13:18

I said, you know what? I'm probably get so involved everything else that I won't even get a chance to get to this So I sort of felt guilty if I didn't at least start going there

01:13:26

Um, I should make a note in this here so that I know where to pick up Uh, yeah right there

01:13:34

Uh, i'll find a way to mark that or something. Yeah. Hey, I marked it Question is will it save it?

01:13:42

That's that's a question anyway, so we'll try to pick up at that point because I I think it's extremely useful to be able to Work through gregory's, uh confession.

01:13:54

Um I find it very very encouraging just as I found encouraging to See manuscript p72 years and years ago in denver connection to the early church that the fact that Uh christ has been building his church and it's

01:14:11

Continuing to be built and we need that confidence these days as there are great, uh forces arrayed against us

01:14:18

So anyway, all right so rich rich, uh

01:14:28

Rich does all the practical stuff around here. So, um, he just uh, Just reminded me, uh, because he's got to pay all the bills um, yes, uh

01:14:38

Travel fund we have a uh trip coming up uh starting

01:14:44

I think the 27th or the 28th of july is when I head out And so you'll be seeing the programs on the road again

01:14:54

Uh, but that's gonna be taking us up. Uh to uh, colorado springs and to denver and uh, we've got one stop in montana and then we're up at Uh, moscow and i'm gonna be doing all sorts of stuff there in fact,

01:15:11

I haven't I haven't checked mail since the program started but I had to write up to the folks in moscow and say how are we gonna do all this?

01:15:20

How does it how we need a schedule here? Uh, do I need to stay a day longer? uh haven't heard back yet, so we'll uh, hopefully be looking for that but um long trip and uh, so if you want to help those things, uh happen and We have the travel travel fund is available at the support page at aomin .org

01:15:41

um, and make sure to download the app as well and once I get

01:15:47

Specific topics which I should get here pretty quickly For colorado springs with jason lyle.

01:15:54

Uh, we'll we'll throw that up That's something we can throw in the app too, isn't it? Don't you think? Is that so we can throw that in the app?

01:16:01

We'll also Reactivate something we haven't put up in a long time and there's actually a speaking schedule calendar and we'll put that stuff in there so that people can know where you're going and So that so all the all the uh, the trolls can can you know what they're they're going to be trolls wherever you go

01:16:21

We know this You can run but you can't hide so, uh famous last words someone's gonna

01:16:28

Play these someday we're finding that a lot of folks are still kind of catching up on some of the things that we're throwing out here so Get the app

01:16:37

Send us an email about your church. We need your contact information where you're at This is not we're going to schedule it right now.

01:16:45

This is we're building a map We're building a map so that when he goes from point a to point z

01:16:53

What's in between and where is he going to be stopping and is there somebody nearby On the map right and then we'll contact you and set something up So, please road trip at aomen .org

01:17:07

road trip At aomen .org right? Okay. Now we have

01:17:12

Now we did all the necessary things to do to keep rich happy All right, thanks for watching the program today, um, we'll be back sometime later in the week probably normal schedule

01:17:25

It's a fairly normal week But lots more to talk about and uh, we'll see you next time.