WWUTT 1920 Q&A Called to Ministry, Bad Examples of Women Pastors, Again on Head Coverings

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April 28, 2023

Responding to comments regarding women pastors, the bad examples used in Scripture to argue for women becoming pastors, and coming back to the discussion on head coverings. Visit wwutt.com for all our videos!

00:00: Does the Holy Spirit call people to ministry? Does the Holy Spirit call women to be pastors?
00:08: And has the Holy Spirit instructed women in the church to wear a head covering? The answers to these questions,
00:14: When We Understand the Text. This is
00:25: When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible study in the Word of Christ. For he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
00:33: Tell your friends about our ministry at www .wutt .com. Hey once again, it's Pastor Gabe.
00:39: Thank you, Becky, who is not in studio with me. She is ill. And that's the reason why this episode took so long to get posted.
00:47: On Thursday night, if you've been listening to us for a while, you know we tend to record together on Thursday.
00:53: Becky told me she wasn't feeling well. And I thought, okay, she just doesn't feel good, but she'll be fine tomorrow. So I'll wait.
01:00: We'll record it tomorrow and get it posted a little bit late. I'm sure you would all much rather hear Becky on with me anyway.
01:06: Well it turned out Becky was sick the whole weekend, so it never worked out for us to be able to record.
01:11: Still, I wanted to put something in that Friday spot, or it messes up my whole numbering system for the podcast.
01:18: So this is episode 19 -20. On the Friday edition, we respond to questions from the listeners, and you can submit those questions too when we understand the text at gmail .com.
01:29: Before getting to some of those comments, questions, I wanted to read to you here from Psalm 130.
01:36: This is a song of a sense. Out of the depths I called to you, O Yahweh, O Lord, hear my voice.
01:44: Let your ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications. If you should keep iniquities,
01:53: O Yah, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness that you may be feared.
02:03: I hope for Yahweh, my soul does hope, and for his word do
02:08: I wait. My soul waits for the Lord more than watchmen for the morning, the watchmen for the morning.
02:17: O Israel, wait for Yahweh, for with Yahweh there is loving kindness, and with him is abundant redemption, and it is he who will redeem
02:28: Israel from all his iniquities. I love that statement that's mentioned in there.
02:35: First of all, if you should keep iniquities, O Yah, O Lord, who can stand?
02:40: But with you there is forgiveness that you may be feared. If God was counting our wrongs against us, no one would be able to stand before God, and on that day of judgment, every single person would perish.
02:56: No one will be able to declare their righteousness before God. Who could stand in the presence of God?
03:04: Verse four again, but with you there is loving kindness, there is forgiveness that you may be feared, recognizing that God is judge of all.
03:16: He will decide whether you stand or fall, and with him there is forgiveness.
03:23: When he stands us up because he has forgiven us of our transgressions, notice the statement there is that you may be feared because we recognize all true righteousness is of God, and so if we're going to be declared righteous, it is because he has been merciful.
03:43: He is our judge who can condemn. He is our judge who shows us mercy, which we receive through Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins, that all who believe in him will be forgiven their sins and have everlasting life.
04:00: Knowing that about God, he is the one who can grant forgiveness or will grant judgment, will issue judgment and sentence a person to destruction.
04:11: Knowing that should cause us to fear God. Now indeed, as it says in 1
04:17: John, perfect love casts out all fear. The context of that is that we don't fear judgment.
04:23: The perfect love of God that has been given to us in Christ, we fear him in a sense of reverence because he is
04:30: God. He is our father. He is our savior. He loves us. He has adopted us.
04:35: We are his sons and daughters. All of that is certainly true, but he is still God. Just like you knew your father loved you, but you still feared your father, right?
04:46: Because he was the one who could punish you or reward you. So this is in that same sense, but on a much grander scale, of course,
04:54: God being the God of the universe and the ultimate judge of all. So indeed he loves us.
05:00: The fear that we have of him is a reverent fear because we know he is God and he holds all things in his hands.
05:09: But recognizing he's the one who grants forgiveness or he's the one who sentences to destruction, we have that fear in our hearts that we may revere
05:20: God and worship him rightly. And also knowing this should cause us to say to another, repent while you have the opportunity to repent and turn to the
05:31: Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. We care for others that they too may know
05:37: Christ who gives forgiveness. My heart was in Psalm 130 this weekend, and I thought
05:44: I would share that with you. Speaking of the weekend, I dropped a new video over the weekend. You might have noticed it if you are subscribed to the
05:51: What channel on YouTube. This is the longest What video that's been on this channel.
05:57: Well, I take that back because I think that I did a read through of the Sermon on the Mount and posted it to the
06:03: What channel, and that's about 15 or 16 minutes. So that would be the longest video on the channel.
06:08: But this one was 10 minutes, so definitely longer than the usual. I did a video on the Enneagram.
06:14: What is it? Where did it come from? How has it gained so much popularity in evangelical churches in America today?
06:23: If you know somebody who's been dabbling with the Enneagram or you know a church that has really been into it, what do you really know about it?
06:31: So check out that video if you go to our YouTube channel. It's YouTube .com slash W W U T T, and you'll find the video there.
06:39: We've been getting some great feedback about it. Some questions, comments.
06:45: Becky and I want to respond to those things, which hopefully we'll be able to do in episode 1925.
06:50: God willing, given that will be healthy and ready to go for that episode at the end of the week.
06:56: I want to respond to some of the questions that we've gotten about that video and also questions about personality tests, not just the
07:03: Enneagram, but like the Myers -Briggs and the disc test and all that kind of stuff. Are those kinds of things reliable?
07:11: Is that something that Christians should be dabbling in? And what about personality in general?
07:17: What do we make about the whole idea of personality? What does the Bible have to say about it?
07:23: If you have questions about any of these things, send them to us because I hope to be able to respond to this.
07:30: Again, the email address is when we understand the text at gmail .com.
07:36: For today, what I want to do, I want to respond to a couple of tweets of mine that went viral.
07:41: Some of the comments that I got on these tweets, and then that's going to lead into a question Becky and I said we were going to revisit about head coverings.
07:49: We talked about head coverings a couple of weeks ago, reading through 1 Corinthians 11 verses 2 through 16.
07:55: I said I had a follow -up question to that. I want to get to that, but these comments regarding these tweets will get us there.
08:04: First of all, I made this comment on Twitter, and this went viral.
08:09: It was even featured in a couple of blogs and articles and stuff like that. I said, the
08:15: Holy Spirit has never called a woman to be a pastor. A woman pastor who says the
08:22: Spirit called her was listening to her own prideful thoughts, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit calls women pastors to be silent and repent.
08:33: Then I gave two scripture references, 1 Timothy 2, 11 through 12, and 1 Corinthians 14, verses 34 to 35.
08:41: By the way, if you've been following the Sunday school lessons that I've been posting, you'll know that I'm in 1
08:47: Corinthians 14 right now, and I'll be getting to that section, verses 34 to 35, which talks about women being silent.
08:56: Again, God willing, that one will get posted on Sunday next week. It's in 1 Timothy 2, beginning in verse 11, that we read,
09:03: A woman must learn in quietness and all submissive— well, some translations, submissiveness.
09:10: This one says submission. Verse 12, But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
09:18: For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into trespass and became a transgressor.
09:30: Then we have in 1 Corinthians 14, this reference, The women are to keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but are to be subject themselves, just as the law also says.
09:43: But if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church.
09:50: Now, I got a question about that particular verse that's going to come up in these comments here. But with regards to that particular tweet, the
09:57: Holy Spirit has never called a woman to be a pastor. You may have heard some woman somewhere say,
10:04: The Holy Spirit called me to this. I'm a pastor because the Holy Spirit called me.
10:10: So if I were to go against being a pastor, I would be going against the Holy Spirit. And what she's also implying by that, when she says something like that, is that if you oppose me, you are opposing
10:22: God. If you want to tell me that as a woman I cannot be a pastor, then you're opposing
10:28: God himself, for it was God who called me to this position. That's what's being implied there by that particular statement.
10:35: But, of course, we know we are on God's side when we recognize that He has designated for men to fill that role, and specifically qualified men.
10:43: It's not every man. There is a man who must be tested, and if he is qualified for that position, he has that ability to teach according to the qualifications that we have in 1
10:55: Timothy 3, then he desires a noble task. Whoever desires the office of an overseer, it says in 1
11:04: Timothy 3 .1, so we know that position as a pastor, overseer, elder, bishop, all those words being synonymous, we know that's an office that has been designated by God for a man, a qualified man to fill.
11:20: And it says in Ephesians 4 .11 that God gave the shepherds and the teachers, meaning pastor, because that word pastor means shepherd,
11:27: God gave the pastors and the teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry. So this is something that God has designated.
11:36: Now, He doesn't call a person to be a pastor in the sense that, you know, like in the same sense that God called
11:41: Abraham, go from the land of Ur to the land that I tell you to go to. You know, God is not speaking to a pastor in such a way, telling a man, you're going to become a pastor, here's the seminary that you should attend, and here's where I'm going to place you.
11:54: That's not what we mean by calling. Really, the right application of calling might be that the church has called that person to be a pastor.
12:03: Whenever I've used that term, that's generally what I apply, the way that I apply it. That a church has called me.
12:09: I've been called to be a pastor. Well, it was upon the church to test me in that, and they found me worthy of that position, that I meet those qualifications, and so I've been called to be a pastor.
12:22: But you can also, I think that we can use that term loosely in the sense that God has appointed, indeed, for pastors to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
12:32: So if you are qualified and positioned in that place to serve in that way, then you have been called of God to serve there.
12:42: I think we've got to be careful when we say things like that, lest it be interpreted like we're saying
12:47: God specifically spoke to me, or that somebody hears a saying, you know, to oppose me is to oppose
12:55: God, so I'm invincible in this position. No, because we have statements that are given in Scripture about testing those elders.
13:03: A man must be tested to see if he would be qualified for that position.
13:08: And in 1 Timothy 5, if an elder persists in sin, here's how he's to be dealt with.
13:15: So this isn't an invulnerable position. A pastor is a man, a
13:21: Christian like anybody else, but he has been given this particular position to serve the church with the teaching of God to build them up.
13:30: It is for the benefit of the saints that a pastor serves. And again, as said in Scripture, that is a role that has been designated to men.
13:38: If a woman is saying the Holy Spirit called me to be a pastor, she is speaking contrary to the
13:44: Holy Spirit, not in the Holy Spirit. So I had that tweet go viral.
13:49: Here were some of the responses that I got. A person identified as anonymous.
13:54: In fact, I think the name was anonymous because you people are crazy. I think that's a good reason to want to be anonymous on social media.
14:02: Anyway, anonymous said, how do you explain Deborah? Well, Deborah wasn't a pastor.
14:08: Deborah was a judge in Israel, and during a time when the men were not doing what God was telling them to do.
14:14: So he embarrassed the men by positioning a woman in the spot of judge.
14:20: And Deborah even said to Barak, who was leading the Lord's armies, she said to Barak that the victory of the battle is going to go to a woman, who was
14:29: J .L., because the men were not being obedient to the Lord. He would still grant them the victory, but it would not be a man who would deliver the final blow.
14:40: The victory would still go to a woman. That they would know God is the one who would deliver these enemies into their hands.
14:48: And he used a woman to do that. Deborah was a godly woman, but she was not a pastor. You can't use
14:53: Deborah to say, well, women can be pastors. I'll have another response regarding the example of Deborah here in just a moment.
15:00: You know, I did an article a few years ago. In fact, this was in 2018, so it's been five years now.
15:05: I believe the title of the article was, Bad Examples of Women Pastors, but Great Examples of Godly Women.
15:14: And I went through a list of those women that tend to get cited as evidence for why a woman can be a pastor.
15:21: So I showed how they're not pastors, but they are great examples of godly women. I should take that article, and I should make a video out of that, now that I'm thinking about it.
15:32: Let's go through that list of women again. This is why these women are not examples of pastors.
15:38: None of them were pastors. There are no women pastors in the Bible. But they are great examples of godly women, examples that should be followed.
15:46: Maybe I'll make that my next long -form what video. We'll see how that goes. If any of those women in the
15:54: Bible were alive today, like if Deborah was alive on the earth somewhere and she could be consulted, or Mary, the mother of Jesus, or Mary Magdalene, or Phoebe, or Priscilla, any of these women that get used as examples of why women can be pastors, they would tell you, quit twisting the
16:12: Bible. None of these women were trying to move into those positions of becoming pastors.
16:18: So they're not on the side of the feminists who try to use their name, abuse their name in that way. Continuing on with some of these comments, this next one is from Liba.
16:28: I have to be honest to tell you that your replies are very defensive and therefore are not
16:34: Christ -like. Well, I responded to Liba and I said, can you show me any of the responses that I have made that are not
16:42: Christ -like? And she never did respond. All of my interactions online are public.
16:48: And really, if I'm behaving in a way that isn't Christ -like, I'd like to know that. And I am just as subject to my elders regarding my behavior and my conduct online as I am with my conduct in the church or out in the community.
17:02: If my elders at my church see me behaving online in a certain way, and they do follow what I'm saying on the internet, even on social media, if I'm saying something that's out of line, they're going to confront me on that.
17:13: And they're going to say that I need to correct my behavior or issue an apology somewhere or something like that.
17:19: And we have had those kinds of discussions. My friends, you need that kind of accountability as well. When Jesus says in Matthew 12 that everyone is going to have to give an account for every careless word that they have spoken, that's not just the things you've said from your mouth, that's also what you've typed with your fingers or texted to somebody.
17:38: When Ephesians 4 .29 says to build one another up with our words instead of tear each other down so that we may give grace to those who hear, that also applies in your interactions online.
17:49: So we need that kind of accountability also. We would conduct ourselves in a
17:54: Christ -like way, even in our interactions on the internet. More comments here.
18:00: This fellow named Mark. I'm genuinely curious. Do you put as much emphasis on 1
18:06: Corinthians 14 .39? So remember in 1 Corinthians 14, it was – hang on,
18:13: I turned my pages there. I went to a different spot. It was in verses 34 and 35 where it says the women are to keep silent in the churches.
18:23: He says, do you put as much emphasis on verse 39? Therefore my brothers earnestly desire to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
18:31: Yeah, I put just as much emphasis on that verse as any other. Every verse in the Bible is important, every word, but you have to understand it in the proper context.
18:41: And with regards to the context of that verse, you can either go to other podcast episodes where I've taught on that.
18:47: I think you can type in 1 Corinthians 14 and the what episodes that I've done out of that chapter are going to come up.
18:53: Or, again, wait one more week, and this coming Sunday, I'll be explaining exactly that passage, looking at it in context.
19:02: If you've been listening to my Sunday school lessons, though, you probably know exactly where I'm going with that particular verse. Look at it in context, and you understand what
19:09: Paul meant. And it doesn't mean everyone in church can now be speaking in tongues because everywhere else in chapter 14 prior to that statement, he's been trying to discourage the practice.
19:20: Don't speak in languages that people can't understand. That doesn't edify or build up the church, but rather prophesy so that everyone may benefit.
19:29: The church will be built up, and even unbelievers will be convicted of heart over the words that they hear you say.
19:35: They can hear and clearly understand what is being said. That's what Paul's driving at.
19:41: So it's not a condemnation of speaking in tongues. So don't forbid that. But if you were to exercise this gift in the right way, you wouldn't be doing it in church.
19:51: That's what you're going to get out of chapter 14. And, again, yes, I put just as much emphasis on that passage as any other.
19:58: Marie says, Not pastors, but women have served in leadership roles in the early church,
20:04: Romans 16, 1 and 2. I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Syncriae.
20:09: I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help that she may need from you.
20:17: Well, she's quoting there from the NIV, it looks like, because it's the NIV that renders Romans 16, 1.
20:23: I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Syncriae. Most other translations are going to render that a servant, because that's what the word diakonos, which is used there, the
20:36: Greek word means servant. So the question would have to be, is Paul referring to the office of deacon there at Romans 16, 1, or is he just calling
20:47: Phoebe a servant? Because the same word is used of Christ in Romans 15, 8.
20:54: He is a servant of the word of God. Why wouldn't the
20:59: NIV render that Jesus is a deacon? I mean, if they're going to be consistent in their translation, then the way that they translated in Romans 16, 1 should also be translated the same way in Romans 15, 8, right?
21:11: Or how about in Romans 13, 4, where it says that the government is a servant of God for your good, the governing authorities.
21:20: It's the same word, it's diakonos. So why isn't it translated deacon there in the
21:26: NIV? Probably because the NIV translators are pushing a particular perspective on Romans 16, 1 instead of being consistent in their translation.
21:36: When you read the qualifications for deacon in 1 Timothy 3, verses 8 through 13, it's clear that what we're talking about there is an office that's filled by a man.
21:48: Now, with regards to the deacon, his wife must also meet certain qualifications. You don't have anything mentioned about the elder's wife in verses 1 to 7, but you do have qualifications that the deacon's wife is supposed to meet, probably because she's going to be serving alongside her husband.
22:05: So she has to show herself to be a godly woman, but it's still the husband. It's the man who holds that office of deacon.
22:14: Michael from Alpharetta, Georgia says, wow, this is a bold statement, brother.
22:19: In love, I'd ask you to pray on this. I would suggest reading the book,
22:25: How Not to Read the Bible by Dan Kimball. There's a really good likelihood that your referenced verses were specific to their audience due to cults converting.
22:38: Really? Is that what Dan says in his book? Because it's absolutely absurd, and as I showed in previous weeks where we've talked about this, and of course
22:47: I've got what videos on this as well, that statement that Paul gives in 1 Timothy 2,
22:53: I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. He grounds it in the law, in Genesis, in the order of creation, for it was
23:03: Adam who was formed first and then Eve. This is how God has designed for this to work from the very beginning, even before the fall, that the men would be the ones to hold those positions that would give instruction.
23:18: In fact, when you go back to the context of Adam and Eve in Genesis 1 through 3, you see that the command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that command was given to Adam before Eve was even made.
23:33: So it was Adam's responsibility to teach that to his wife and guide her in that and protect her from disobeying it.
23:41: And we see that when she listened to the serpent and ate of the fruit that God told them not to eat from,
23:49: Adam was right there with her. She listened to the serpent. Adam did nothing to stop what was happening.
23:56: And so he did not fulfill the role that he was put in to lead and protect his wife.
24:04: All of that to say that the statement that Paul gives Timothy in 1 Timothy 2 is not a response to something cultural.
24:11: We don't see that in the context at all. You're making that up and imposing that on the text when people try to say this was a cultural argument that Paul was making.
24:23: It was not something with regards to an order that's given to every single church. No, it applies to every church at all times and in all places because Paul grounded this in the creation order to show that.
24:36: And it should apply everywhere anyway because Paul is an apostle. And so what he is issuing is the word of Christ.
24:44: To disobey an apostle is to disobey the word of Christ. Now, with regards to this book that Michael recommended,
24:52: How Not to Read the Bible by Dan Kimball, I've not read that book. I would recommend to Michael the book
24:58: How to Eat Your Bible by Nate Pikowitz. That's a better one. All I had to do was look at the endorsements on Dan Kimball's book to see this is not a book anybody should be reading.
25:08: It's endorsed by Tim Mackey of the Bible Project. Scott McKnight, who's a heretic and an egalitarian, so he believes that women can be pastors.
25:19: David Crowder. Okay, the musician David Crowder endorses this book. The church that David Crowder founded in,
25:27: I believe it's Waco, is now LGBTQ affirming. And Margaret Feinberg, who is another person that is endorsing this book,
25:35: I believe she is a woman pastor. I think she's an ordained woman. I know that she is for women pastors if she's not ordained herself.
25:42: So I can get from those endorsements where Dan Kimball's going to go with this book. And I don't think that's a good book that anybody should be reading to get an understanding of how to read your
25:52: Bible. Again, my recommendation would be to read Nate Pikowitz's book,
25:58: How to Eat Your Bible. That's a better guide on how to read and understand and interpret scripture.
26:05: Next comment, this comes from Caleb in Atlanta. The Holy Spirit also never called any man to be a pastor either.
26:13: No one in scripture is recorded as called to be a pastor. There were, however, women who were appointed as prophets, judges, military leaders, and deacons.
26:22: In heaven, all are equal whether you like it or not. Yeah, you got to throw that little thing in there.
26:28: Like, I'm somehow going to be torn by the idea that men and women are equal in heaven.
26:34: It's an uncharitable way to read my tweets, as though I hate women, so men need to be up here and women down here, which is not where I'm coming from at all.
26:43: I'm just simply telling you what the Bible says. Yes, men and women are equal in the kingdom of God. That's what
26:48: Galatians 3 .28 means when it says there is no male and female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. And the instruction given to husbands in 1
26:55: Peter 3 .7, a husband is to love his wife in an understanding way as the weaker vessel, knowing that she is a fellow heir with you in Christ.
27:04: So we all receive the kingdom of God together. And men are not going to be platformed higher than women in heaven.
27:10: I have never said anything otherwise and would never speak contrary to that.
27:16: But with regards to the order that God has placed things in, in the world in which we live, the roles of men and women and the different responsibilities that he's designated to each one, men are the head of their household.
27:32: He is the head of his wife. And it is to a man that is given the responsibility to lead the teaching in his home and in the church.
27:42: Now, Caleb says there were women who were appointed as prophets, judges. Yes, there were women appointed as prophets.
27:48: That was not an authoritative position. They didn't have authority. A prophet did not serve in the same function that a pastor did.
27:57: So you had prophetesses that were mentioned in the Old Testament, but oftentimes those prophetesses were mentioned as a judgment against the men.
28:06: Again, a reference back to Deborah. She was not only a judge, but she was also a prophetess. If you'll remember back to 2
28:13: Kings 22, when Josiah was king over Judah, and he found the book of the law, and he was cut to the heart over what was said in the law and recognized that Judah had not been obeying it.
28:24: And so he had Hilkiah the high priest go to Huldah the prophetess and ask her what the
28:30: Lord wanted them to do. What does the Lord say to us? It's interesting that they went to Huldah the prophetess to ask her, rather than the other prophets who were alive during that time, including
28:43: Ezekiel and Jeremiah. And so you just have to wonder, was that supposed to be an indictment against the men?
28:50: Because they were not listening to and obeying God. All of Judah was in sin during that time.
28:55: When Josiah found the law and he recognized, we need reform, we need some things to happen here.
29:01: So consulting Huldah was reflective of the fact that these men had not been listening to God, and God was embarrassing them by giving them instruction through a woman.
29:10: We typically see that in Scripture. So it's not that a woman holding the position of prophetess says that she can hold the position of a pastor.
29:20: That's not the same office. They don't have the same function. Now, Caleb also made reference here to Deborah being a military leader.
29:29: So he mentions women were judges. No, women were not judges. There was one woman judge.
29:35: And we know the reason why she was placed in that position was to embarrass the men. And Deborah in that spot was not a military leader.
29:42: That's a common misunderstanding. I've run into that several times. She did not lead the armies of God into battle.
29:49: Barak did. She went with Barak to the battle line, but she herself did not fight.
29:55: She didn't lead the armies. Barak did. And that's why when you have the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11, where you have the faithful of the
30:04: Old Testament, examples for us to follow. They believed God, and it was credited to them as righteousness, or they were counted approved by God because of their faith.
30:15: Deborah is not listed in the Hall of Faith. There are other judges that are on that list. Barak is on that list, but Deborah is not.
30:22: Why is she not on the list? Because she did not put her life on the line for what she believed.
30:28: That's not to say that she wasn't a godly woman. Indeed, she was.
30:35: But she did not risk her life for what she believed. You'll notice the other people that are on that list actually put their lives on the line because they believed
30:45: God. And that's why they are propped up as an example of faith, because they were willing to die for what they believed.
30:52: This next comment here, this is from Phillip in Paris, Tennessee. I didn't know there was a Paris, Tennessee.
30:58: I know there's a Paris, Texas. But anyway, Phillip says, I get the women pastor thing,
31:03: I'm with you. But can I ask what you think the rest of the verse means when it says she must be quiet?
31:10: My wife is asking me, and I would like to guide her in the right direction, thank you. So I'm guessing he's referencing 1
31:17: Corinthians 14 when he says that. What does it mean that a woman must be quiet? Of course, it also says that in 1
31:23: Timothy 2, she must be quiet and learn in all submissiveness. In both places, though, the context is with regards to the corporate gathering.
31:31: So all it's saying there is that she can't stand up and be a preacher. She can't be the teacher with teaching authority over men.
31:39: That's exactly what Paul expresses there in 1 Timothy 2. So it's not saying that a woman has to have duct tape on her mouth when you go into church and she can't talk until you get home.
31:50: I'm sure there's probably been some church somewhere that has taken it that legalistically. But in context, that's not the reference that Paul is making.
31:57: It's that a woman cannot have a teaching position or teaching authority over the men of the church.
32:04: In a mixed congregation, men and women together, the person preaching and teaching is supposed to be a man.
32:10: This next comment from Rachel in Nigeria. She references Mark 16, 1 through 20, and says it was a woman that first witnessed about the resurrection of Jesus.
32:20: You'll be fine, though. Yes, I know it was women who first saw the empty tomb.
32:26: They weren't pastors. And that doesn't mean that they can be pastors. Someone identified as the
32:34: House of Worship Ministries in Kentucky said, Read Romans 16, 1 and 2.
32:40: Then do a word study on servant and suckerer. And remember, Paul says
32:45: Phoebe was a suckerer of him. Well, first of all, if that's where you want to go, you're just making an argument for women being deacons.
32:54: You're not making an argument for women being pastors. But as I explained earlier, I don't think that's what that passage is saying there either.
33:01: Now, the word suckerer appears in verse 2, and it's in regards to a woman who orders affairs.
33:08: So that's what Phoebe did. As a servant to the church, she would order things and make sure certain tasks and jobs got carried out.
33:17: But she could have been doing that among women. That doesn't mean that she had any authority over men.
33:23: The command still stands, I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. So that passage in Romans 16, 1 and 2 does not somehow negate what is said in 1
33:34: Timothy 2, 11 and 12. Next comment comes from Lisa, who, by the way, identifies herself as a woman pastor.
33:43: She says, So in 1 Corinthians 11, 5, referring to when a woman prays or prophesies, please tell me where Paul intends for this to be silently.
33:54: Well, when you read that in context in 1 Corinthians 11, it's referring to women being a part of the assembly together.
34:02: So men and women together worshiping. And in this way, they are participants in the prayer and prophesying that is going on.
34:10: But it doesn't mean she's leading it. Because again, we get to chapter 14, and Paul says the women must be silent.
34:16: So it cannot be that what he's saying is that women can stand up and lead the prophesying and the speaking in tongues or whatever else.
34:25: That is not for the women to do. They must learn quietly in all submissiveness, which, by the way, was a fantastic statement.
34:35: 1 Timothy 2, 11, a woman must learn quietly in all submissiveness. That's to say she can be there with the men to learn.
34:43: That was not typical. So that was radical enough for Paul to say that. But she can't then go the extra mile and try to stand up and have teaching authority over a man.
34:54: That's not permitted. She can be there learning. And as I've said many times before, if a church was only men, that would be a dysfunctional church.
35:05: Women are just as influential, as instrumental to the function of a healthy church as the men are.
35:14: Next comment from Travis in San Francisco. You better hope that you aren't wrong about that, my dude.
35:19: Those are mighty big declarations against the potential movement of God's spirit.
35:26: Quoting the Bible are potential words against the movement of God's spirit? No, it's women pastors who are against the movement of God's spirit, not those who are pointing to the scriptures and saying, thus saith the
35:40: Lord. Ela responds with this comment. In the last days, God says,
35:45: I will pour out my spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions.
35:52: Your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my spirit in those days and they will prophesy.
35:58: So I'm guessing that Ela is mentioning this to say, see, women will prophesy, so therefore they can be pastors.
36:04: Well, Acts 21 .9 says that Philip had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. So that's in fulfillment to the
36:11: Joel prophecy that's mentioned there in Acts 2. They were not pastors, nor did they function in any way contrary to the instructions in first Timothy to 11 through 37.
36:22: This woman whose name is England lives in Oklahoma and her profile says issue patriarchy.
36:29: So you can probably guess where she's coming from. She said the only way you can make this claim is by defining pastor in such a narrow, modern manner as to make it something not represented in scripture.
36:40: Women led spiritually in the Bible, both in Old Testament and New Testament. Women taught the word of the
36:46: Lord and shared God's truth to men and women. Well, you're right. I mean,
36:52: Priscilla and her husband, Aquila, took Apollo's aside and corrected where he was wrong on his doctrine.
37:00: So, yes, women teach men as well, but in the church, in the function of the church, when it comes to ecclesiology, which is a study of church function, how churches are supposed to be ordered, it is explicitly stated that the overseers, the elders, are to be men.
37:21: So while there are certainly contexts in which women can teach men, when it comes to the context of the church and the order and structure of the church, she's not to have teaching authority over men.
37:34: And again, explicitly stated in that way, grounded back in the order of creation.
37:40: Harris, a pastor in Kentucky, says, If you are going to be a teacher of the word, you need to study to show yourself approved.
37:46: You are taking scripture out of context and upholding customs and man -made doctrines. I'm quoting the word of God.
37:53: Jay, who is a professing homosexual living in West Virginia, says, I guess Phoebe wasn't supposed to have been a deacon then, and Chloe wasn't supposed to have been the head of her household.
38:03: Scripture doesn't say anything about a woman can't be a matriarch. If you've got a man who had a household, and he dies, and his woman assumes the authority over that household, which wasn't unusual in the
38:17: Roman Empire, she becomes the matriarch of that household. There's nothing in scripture that forbids that.
38:23: I've responded to the whole Phoebe situation earlier, but those two examples, Phoebe and Chloe, are still not examples of pastors.
38:30: A woman still can't be a pastor. And this woman, Sarah, commented,
38:35: My church has a woman pastor, but she's a children's pastor. We can be pastors, but just not the head of the church.
38:43: I would recommend that you choose a different title, because pastor is synonymous with overseer and elder, and women, again, explicitly said they cannot hold that position, nor even function in those roles.
38:55: So the women who head up our children's departments at our church are just called directors.
39:03: We don't even use the term minister to apply to that particular spot, because minister can likewise be synonymous with pastor or overseer, and we don't want to cause confusion anywhere.
39:15: So there are women who are certainly serving in ministry in our church, and serving in some leadership roles, but they are not given authority over the men of the church.
39:27: Now, in a follow -up tweet to that one, I said, I made this comment because this was a rebuttal that was constantly thrown at me.
39:37: Pastor is not an office in the Bible. Checkmate, Gabe. Okay, so I heard that from several people, and I responded,
39:43: Yes, it is. Pastor means shepherd, a term used in Ephesians 4 .11, and the job of an elder in 1
39:50: Peter 5, 1 -5. Elder, pastor, bishop, overseer are all the same thing.
39:55: Pastor is just the common word we use today, but it's the same as an elder or an overseer.
40:01: There are no women pastors, elders, deacons, or apostles in the
40:06: Bible. And then a woman named Elizabeth from Portland responded, Phoebe and Junia would like a word.
40:13: Phoebe and Junia were not pastors. Period. Junia was not an apostle on top of that.
40:19: By the way, the next couple of short what videos that I'm working on are with regards to those passages in Romans 16.
40:27: Was Phoebe a deacon? Was Junia a woman apostle? Look for those. I hope to have those on the channel sometime later this week.
40:34: Jeffrey replied, Hmm, based on all the evidence, pastor means either a child abuser or one who covers up child abuse for 20 years.
40:42: And then he made a reference to that Houston Chronicle article about sex abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention.
40:48: I responded to Jeffrey and I said, The Bible warns of such wicked people, men and women, who will come from within the church and devour the flock.
40:57: 2 Peter 2 .13 -14 says, They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions as they carouse with you, having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin.
41:10: So, yeah, there are wicked people in the church that do evil things. That certainly happens. But the
41:15: Bible gives us instructions on how to deal with those persons. First of all, the Bible names them. You know, the
41:21: Bible doesn't sugarcoat all of this, like that kind of thing is never going to happen in the church.
41:26: It certainly does. Here's how to spot them. Here's what you're supposed to do about that. Jesus said in Matthew 7,
41:33: Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
41:42: And he went on to say in Matthew 7 that not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of God, but only those who do the will of my
41:50: Father who is in heaven. For on that day they'll come and they'll say, Lord, Lord, did we not do many mighty things in your name?
41:59: And he will say to them, Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. I never knew you.
42:07: So there are certainly things that we're supposed to do about those wicked people in the church. A greater judgment is to come if they do not repent.
42:16: So with those two tweets that had gone viral, I come to this question, a follow -up to an issue that Becky and I had talked about a couple of weeks ago regarding head coverings.
42:26: So this is from Andy. I think I caught that Andy was in New Mexico. He says, hey, Gabe, I'm listening to your most recent
42:32: Friday Q &A podcast where you address head coverings and then whether or not women pastors is a primary, secondary, or tertiary issue.
42:43: When discussing women pastors, which I believe should not be a thing, you reason that because scripture refers to the creation order when saying women shouldn't be pastors, that's why they can't, which makes it a fundamental issue.
42:56: Were you aware that in the same way in 1 Corinthians 11, 8 through 12, it references the creation order as a reason that women should wear a head covering and men should be uncovered in the church service.
43:10: So if both passages, the passage regarding women pastors and the passage regarding head coverings, reference creation order for their defense, does referencing the creation order only count for an argument against women pastors but doesn't count as an argument for women being covered in church?
43:26: God bless you, love your podcast and your YouTube channel, and I listen to them regularly.
43:32: Well, what I said with regard to the head coverings in 1 Corinthians 11 is that this is not as clear as what we have with regard to women pastors, the prohibition against women pastors in 1
43:47: Timothy 2, 11 and 12. That's stated more clearly than the instruction regarding head coverings in 1
43:54: Corinthians 11. And we can also know from other places in scripture why a woman is not to fill that position as a pastor in the church, whereas we've got no other instruction in scripture except this passage in 1
44:10: Corinthians 11 that tells us about head coverings. And I'll only mention that because it's hard to cross -reference this.
44:16: So how do you cross -reference it and pull from other scriptures to understand exactly what
44:21: Paul is saying to the Corinthians? Whereas what Paul has said to Timothy or what
44:26: Paul says to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 14, we can cross -reference with other places knowing that a woman is not to serve in the role of a pastor.
44:35: So again, the instruction in 1 Corinthians 11, though it is grounded in the creation order, it's just not as clear to us.
44:44: The Corinthians definitely would have understood what Paul was talking about regarding head coverings in 1
44:51: Corinthians 11. But there are some things there, some blanks that we don't have filled in.
44:57: Like I said a couple of weeks ago, what is the head covering? What is it? For some have argued that it's simply length of hair.
45:05: And you can kind of get that from the context. Women are supposed to have long hair and men are supposed to have short hair.
45:12: So in verse 14 it says, Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
45:21: But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given to her for a covering.
45:30: So is that her covering? When women are supposed to have their heads covered?
45:36: Because earlier you have the reference to a head being shaved. Every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying shames her head, for she is one in the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
45:50: So are we only talking about hair here? Or are we talking about some sort of a shawl or something like that that's supposed to go on someone's head?
45:58: And when we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, we mentioned different kinds of head coverings that you've seen traditionally exercised in different contexts.
46:06: The Mennonite women have that little bun covering in the back. Southern women used to wear their big hats not as big a thing anymore, pun intended, but it used to be.
46:17: They'd have those big, large hats they'd come into church with, and then when I was a little kid sitting behind them, I could not see the preacher because those big hats were in the way.
46:24: So is that the head covering? And that's why men take their hats off when they come into church, but women would still have their hats on.
46:32: Now, when I taught on this, regarding this a couple of weeks ago, I did not say that women don't need to be thinking about these kinds of things.
46:41: It's in the Bible. It's something that we should talk about and consider. Nor did I say, women, keep your heads uncovered.
46:48: You don't have to worry about that. I said, if it is your conviction to cover your head, then do so. But if it is not a woman's conviction to cover her head, what
46:56: I called for was grace. We need to be charitable about this because there aren't things explicitly stated here in such a way that we can know clearly what the instruction is.
47:07: In fact, it doesn't appear as if Paul is giving them an imperative at all since he's actually praising their good conduct in this particular section.
47:18: 1 Corinthians 11, 2, Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
47:28: So then he goes through that tradition in verses 3 through 16. He's telling them something they already know.
47:34: They're already doing this and even doing it well. But then in the next section, where he has to talk to them about the
47:42: Lord's Supper in verse 17, he says, But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you because you come together not for the better but for the worse.
47:51: And then he's much more particular with regards to how they practice the
47:56: Lord's Table in verses 17 to 34 than he is with regards to the proper practice of head coverings in verses 2 through 16.
48:04: Because in the second half of chapter 11, the Corinthians were not doing that well. Whereas in the first half of 1
48:11: Corinthians 11, they were doing that well. The main takeaway that we're supposed to glean from 1
48:18: Corinthians 11, 2 through 16 is not that women need to wear a covering in church and men should not wear a covering.
48:25: That's actually not the main point. The main point is given in verse 3. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head of a woman and God is the head of Christ.
48:42: So what we understand that's being said here, and this is starting a section on orderliness in worship, by the way, chapters 11 through 14, where Paul is talking about an orderliness in the worship practice in the corporate gathering of the church.
48:59: And the way he starts that is by saying that there's a hierarchy. There is a structure.
49:05: There is a way that God has ordered things. Christ is the head of every man. The man is the head of a woman.
49:14: And God is the head of Christ. And so, we are to practice these things in the proper roles that God has given to each person, to men and to women.
49:25: And even nature speaks unto that. So, of course, as Andy had mentioned here,
49:32: Paul grounds this in the creation story. He goes back to creation with this as well. Verse 11,
49:38: Nevertheless, in the Lord neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman.
49:49: But all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
49:57: Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? So, you have that going back to the creation order even here in 1
50:05: Corinthians 11. There's another verse here that I'm overlooking. Verse 9,
50:11: For indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels.
50:21: So, what is the symbol of authority that is on her head? Again, that's the question we have to ask. What is that symbol of authority?
50:28: Is it her long hair? Is it a head covering? Now, again, I say to you, these things are good to explore.
50:36: I noticed that there was a book that was written recently. I'm not going to say who this was yet because I'd like to read it first.
50:41: But a book has been put out recently on this particular issue. I'd like to pick that up and read it. And hey, if there's something more in this that I need to be convinced on, then
50:50: I'm willing to be. Come to the scriptures with it and give it to me. But again, there are things that are not said here in chapter 11, that because they aren't expressed plainly enough for us to know, here's what a head covering is, and here's how you're to wear it, and here's the context in which you are to wear it.
51:09: None of that is given in chapter 11. So, again, as I said a couple of weeks ago, we therefore need to be gracious with these things, not condemning one another over this.
51:19: Where a woman is convicted that she must wear a head covering, or even that her husband is convicted that she must, then do so, but don't quarrel over opinions.
51:28: That's in Romans chapter 14. Where a person is not convinced that women need to be wearing head coverings, that church or that body of people is not to be condemned over that.
51:39: And so that was simply the point that I was coming to with regards to 1 Corinthians 11. Yes, both 1
51:44: Corinthians 11 and the issues with regards to women pastors are grounded in creation, but the prohibition against women pastors is just more clearly given.
51:54: I am not convinced that a woman not wearing a head covering is rebelling against God.
52:00: But I am absolutely convinced, and I think you would agree with me here, that a woman who has assumed the position of pastor, of teaching and holding authority over men of the church, even functioning in that role, you and I would agree, she is rebelling against a direct command from the
52:18: Lord in scripture. Even the very order in which God has set things in creation and in the church.
52:26: So let all things be done in obedience to God and in love toward one another.
52:32: Amen? Well, that's where we're going to wrap up today. Again, next week, want to be talking about personality tests, the
52:38: Enneagram, what is personality anyway? And if you have any questions regarding that, send them to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.
52:48: Thank you all so much. God bless. Let me close with prayer, and that's how we'll close out.
52:53: Heavenly Father, we thank you for the goodness and kindness and grace that you show to us, and help us to be gracious toward one another, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, as said in Colossians 3 .16,
53:06: with the word of Christ in our hearts. Let us not be condemning one another because of our own feelings or motivations, but help us to always come back to God's word and be building one another up in this way, to benefit the church, that we all may be built up together in love, grown in holiness and righteousness, in Christlikeness, until the day that he appears and we join with him together in glory.
53:33: Guide us in your truth, always ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us, but doing this with gentleness and respect, in our hearts, setting apart
53:42: Christ as holy. It's in Jesus' name that we pray. Amen. This is
53:47: When We Understand the Text with Pastor Gabe Hughes. There are lots of great Bible teaching programs on the web, and we thank you for selecting ours.
53:54: But this is no replacement for regular fellowship with a church family. Find a good, gospel -teaching,
54:00: Christ -centered church to worship with this weekend, and join us again tomorrow as we continue our Bible study