Full Preterism; Have All Prophecies Been Fulfilled?

Opening Banter and the Show’s Setup

Mr. Smalley, do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy. I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you. We are live, Apologetics Live, here to answer your most challenging questions you have about God and the Bible.

One of those questions we're gonna deal with tonight, and that is a question of full preterism. Let me bring in my co-host, Mr. Drew. How are you, sir? I'm doing well, doing well. How are you? Good. I am feeling sick.

So, as I told you, I will probably, you know, take myself off camera as I cough and sneeze and everything else.

Yeah, is that why you're wearing that that sweater?

So you can wipe your nose and... No, my bride made me this sweater. I will not do that. Oh, okay. I wouldn't do that. It looks nice. It is. She made it when we went to a cruise to Alaska at our 10th wedding anniversary.

And I'm finally wearing it, 20 years later. Because she made it and she kind of just guessed how long my arms were. It would go like this. My fingers would stick out like this. So she was always like, I should fix that.

So she did. She actually took the time to take the shoulders off and take it out. But I like it. It looks nice. Yeah, you got to love a good sweater. Yeah, so before we introduce our guest and the show we have, I told you I may or may not be making a big announcement here.

That's right. Yeah, shocking one, too. Yeah, I'm gonna have to admit, man, if there's ever been a case, I must be post-mill. I mean, Donald Trump got elected and everything is good in the last nine days.

I mean... That's right.

Look at everything he's doing, everything that's happening.

If there was ever an argument for post-mill, it would be what's going on right now because I'm seeing things I never expected would be happening, especially in America.

Apparently, RFK Jr. went from supporting abortion, full-term abortion, to now he's... Every abortion is wrong. Every abortion is wrong, so...

I mean, like, we're seeing, I mean, you're now seeing, hey, you do, you're a really bad criminal. What will, you're here illegally? Okay, we'll ship you to Guantanamo. Your country doesn't want you back?

We got a place for you. That's right. We do. I mean, excuse me. Yeah, I am just, I am as much as I thought Trump might do as as president. Wow, he is, he's done more in nine days or ten days now. Well, than Joe Biden did.

Like his entire four years. Yeah, all 50 years he's been in...

60 years in Congress. Yeah, or said it. So, let me bring in Dr. Sam Frost.

So,.

Let me explain how we got around to this topic of full preterism, and then I'm going to let Dr. Frost introduce himself and say, see why he is in here for this. And this is an appeal to any of you Twitter followers that were there wanting to tell me how, you know, full preterism cannot be disputed.

Now is your chance to come in and prove to us how unrefutable your position really is. This episode started because, and Sam, you've been here before, but we did have, I put out a post, innocent enough, I just asked people their views,.

A mill, post mill, pre mill. This is probably the least controversial post Andrew has ever put out.

I didn't make any claims. I just asked everyone their view, right? Simple enough. The full preterist came in, in groups, and I kind of, you know, I look, I've, Drew, you know, I've dealt with the black erasurelites and I've taught how to deal with them and how they they do that group think where they, they never come in one at a time.

They come in a bunch at a time and feed off each other and ignore what you say because they're just really talking to each other and then going, yeah, yeah, that's right. You said it. You got them. And they don't actually listen to what you're saying.

Well, that's what went on in my, on my, uh, poll there.

And.

I kept asking them as I always do for folks to say, would you come on to Apologetics Live? Let's, let's debate it. I said, if, if you guys, because they were telling me it was undeniable,.

Undeniable,.

Unrefutable, and I said, well, then you should have no problem coming in and doing a debate. And they kept, several of them all appealed and tagged some guy, Michael Sullivan, which I know, Sam, you said, you know who he is.

And.

I said, okay. And as, and as Michael came in, all of them backed away and said, oh, Michael can handle it. Okay. So what ended up happening was Michael says he's willing to do it. I said, great. I, I've reached out to Sam Frost and he'd be happy to debate you.

To which he was like, oh no, that, that guy's running from two debates for me already. He won't hand, he can't handle answering his own book. Oh, he's, he's running from me. Therefore, I'm not going to do it.

And then a bunch of people said how Michael agreed to debate and that Sam is running from him. I said, look, on this thread, I only see one person who's running and it's not Sam because he's not even in the thread.

To which hours later, when I told Sam about this, he went on to the thread and said, I'm willing to debate you.

Out there, right? Nothing to see here.

It was the classic troll move. I mean, if there, if there, if Sam, if Sam Frost ever did a Donald Trump move that there was. Yeah, just to get right out of the thing and say, I'm here. I'll debate you.

So.

It was. It was funny because this guy, Michael Sullivan and I could see Sam. Why he's afraid to debate you.

Um.

Because basically.

He.

Remembered all I did was ask people. What is their view? A mill. Post mill. Pre mill. And he told me and for regular listeners, you'll you'll get the humor in this. He told me I need to defend a millennialism.

To which I said why and he said because you made the claim you have to support it. I said all I did was ask what people's position is in a poll. Yeah, he says no you're all mill. To which I said no, you know I said if you if you're really good at debating you should learn the first thing is to know your opponent.

I'm not all mill. To which this one woman who kept telling me she will she's willing to have a written debate. Which I told her I wouldn't. Written debates are not good because people like as she was doing just ignore what what i'm saying.

And you can't do that when you're actually like in person. And so she she posts in a response to this guy. Michael sullivan. She actually I mean, this is just classic. She posts a link to our doctoral statement at striving for eternity.

And claims he's not all mill. I read his doctoral statement. He's post mill.

Two out of three. It's not good. You think they can get one of them? I know you're pretty good on i'm like. Yeah. You got one more guess.

So somebody else was finally responded and said because she said she read it and someone said um. He's pre-mill.

That's it. You finally got out of the three. The last one you got right?

Yeah, well, that was someone else. That's not a full preterist. So two full preterists got it wrong.

Yeah.

And so it was it was just hilarious because she said she read it. And she was like we. She told me I was running from a written debate from her I said. And my response was As a woman, you shouldn't be teaching the bible.

So I would never have agreed to a written debate with you. So you should repent of both teaching men. And your your false teaching of full preterism. So so.

That shows you the a competence and reading level of a good deal of full preterist.

You know.

Yeah, I mean that's why I played the intro that we did with with uh, david smalley. Where. He he didn't want to debate me. He you know, he'd rather debate matt slick over me. Well, I guess sam. All the full preterists are here backstage that wanted to debate you.

I'll bring them all in right now. You see them all. Oh I I should have done the thing that I did for the. I'm disappointed. That it's undeniable but they're all afraid you're you can't defend yourself.

But none of them are here. Funny how that works. And and so, you know sam, you probably don't know I did this but many years ago. We we had black hebrew israelites that kept telling me they would debate me, but they would never show up here.

And so we actually had one scheduled. It was going to be me against three black hebrew israelites.

And.

Like tuesday, so the show's on thursday tuesday, they all blocked me and the moderator. So we couldn't keep in the link which then they went around saying that we were we wouldn't provide the link because we were scared and so on the show, we announced, you know, we they blocked us and We could we can't provide a link.

So I I told the uh, I told my moderator. I said look here. Let's have a debate. Just do debate. Introduce me. I'll do the opening. Introduce the black hebrew israelites. He's like who you gonna have. They they they blocked us.

I said just do it. He had no idea what I was gonna do. So I do my opening. He said, uh, we're gonna have the black hebrew israelites that are gonna debate andrew here. They're gonna introduce themselves and I threw up a picture of an empty chair.

Classic just in case here. So sam the empty chair for elijah. Yeah.

That's for passover, that's correct. So introduce yourself so folks know. I mean first off introduce who you are. Uh, let's give a high level overview of full preterism what it is for folks that may not know.

And.

And then explain why it is that you'd be here because. You know, I I love he bows down so we can see the rest of his book as I am selling.

It's never ending.

I'm selling my library and it's so hard to do and and I get this I i've told him before the show I want to come to his house and Just you know, like get down there to see that library. It just like goes on and on.

That's well, it's not all my it's my two boys ones. Works at the state capitol here in indianapolis, but he's a poli sci uh major and then my other one he's in Indiana university. And they grew up with me.

So they buy books just like I and they didn't have any place for them. So they end up downstairs here and they become your books. I keep building and acting shelves and going around the corner and everything.

So We just can't bring ourselves, you know to get To get rid of them, but they're all top tier reference and specific, you know non-fiction kind of. Kind of works that we look for handpicked just very specific.

You can't buy everything.

Um.

But the popular we want to popular stuff we get rid of and just focus in on the more impactful kind of. Well, like this one. This one was just sent to me as a gift. Oxford handbook on the book of revelation by kistler.

And I was wanting to get this very expensive and someone sent it to me as a gift. Elton holland. Who you know. Thank you elton.

Um.

Nice, I can't wait to dive into this thing. I just got this yesterday. I need friends like yours people sending stuff.

So.

After a few years. Yeah, you were a massive collection. The only thing drew ever sends me is bills.

Huh?

The only thing drew ever sends me is his bills. Oh bill. Yeah, I need someone to pay him, you know.

So.

Um full plethorism. Well. People have said some of your debaters probably on twitter. I just got asked this by a phil jones on the facebook. Of how familiar am I with full plethorism in order to debunk it?

Well, uh. This is misplaced hope. I wrote that in 2003 as a full preterist, uh, you know, this was one of mine. That sold thousands of copies of this one. Uh, tim King and max king put put that put that one out and then I wrote this one exegetical essays.

This got uh sold out and I republished it. Don preston who is bar none the most prolific full preterist author out there.

Um.

He now publishes this book i've asked him not to but he continues to publish it. He says it continues to sell as one of the best full preterist books ever written. If that tells you anything um that I don't understand full preterism, but I I can easily debunk that because don preston sells this book still to this day, even though I've renounced full preterism and then you mentioned, uh, michael sullivan and There I am and there's uh, michael sullivan.

And I wrote a book with him house divided now when I left, of course, they had to take my name and chapter out um, but There it is, and so those are the three works that I have. That I participated and spoke at over 25 lectures across the united states from 2003 2008.

Um had one of the very few full preterist acting churches. Uh, which we founded and pastored in saint petersburg christ covenant church. And was producing a lot of cds and materials and Uh pamphlets and booklets and things of that nature.

I uh, you know sold my. Sold my life to it. I this was this was uh I I knew max king personally and tim king and I know don preston personally and ed stevens personally and I Met jack scott and william bell and all these guys we roomed together, uh, doug, uh, you know, david curtis um, you know, we personally would.

You know fellowship together in hotel rooms and and uh hotel lobbies and conference hall lobbies and Things of that nature. So I got to know these guys pretty well and listen, you know. A lot of these guys are nice, you know american nice guys guys.

You wouldn't mind. Needed some some help or whatever. Um, but the the theology of it uh of full preterism, which basically is that every Prophecy that's in the scriptures from genesis to revelation.

Is.

Exhaustively fulfilled by the time of 70 a .d the 9th of ab. Which would be what in the jewish would be august 9th. So um by that time. All the prophecies from genesis to revelation are all exhaustively fulfilled by that time.

And so after that time There's no prophecy left in any way shape or form to be fulfilled in our future.

At all.

That's the full preterist or what I call the hyper preterist view. That's basically the view. So that's that would be the the the Declarative statement or the statement of what it is. They believe all prophecy is fulfilled uh by by the time of 70 a .d and then of course.

The flood of questions if you've been raised in a church or you've been in church for a few years and like all things church. What about the resurrection? What about the new heavens and new earth? What about you know?

These are just immediate questions that will come up and so, uh. What about the resurrection? Well, that's what about the resurrection? What about church history the early church fathers?

And.

What about the inconsistencies of views that are out there already? That's so we covered. We covered all that and Looking back on it It increasingly became more difficult.

Um.

Because these questions like we'll take the word death. Death now is entirely Totally divorced. From what you and I know. As just you know death the funerals cemeteries. Uh getting ill getting cancer people in our families in our lives.

Uh that we're going through uh what we're heading towards. Uh, that's not what the bible's talking about. The bible's talking about spiritual death. So you got to get around all that stuff. So. Well, go ahead.

Take two hours to discuss. Yeah, so they kept making an issue over the over death. Yeah, that's a big one.

That's a big one. Yeah, and and I I didn't so I didn't know That they make a big like that. There's they because I asked them What is death? And I I couldn't get a definition from any of them. Yeah, yeah in my view death is I.

Death is separation right. Physical death is separation of the spirit from the body. You know, uh. You know spiritual death is our separation of a fellowship with with god. And eternal death is a permanent separation, uh, you know, so they all the idea of separation.

Um.

But they kept using it and and they kept using it in a way because because I kept bringing up daniel nine, which will get to the 70 weeks of daniel, but Drew you had a really interesting point that you had when we talked about this.

Of.

You know, because because as You know sam just mentioned right? They believe all the all prophecies are done in 78.

Yeah.

Um.

I know you're you're a post mill. So you're you're close to the truth, but you know, you're not not there yet. As a pre-meal.

Um, we got a pre-meal and all meal and a post meal on this show. That's amazing. Yeah.

Yeah.

And and we all think we're the right ones. Yeah, you know we're gonna find out who's right one day but uh, but yeah you had an interesting point though with the the prophecies that. We would you really like to see the full preterists.

Say when it happened. Mm-hmm. Yeah, maybe sam could explain when that happened from a from a full press view, but why don't you get into that?

Yeah, the one thing that I mentioned with andrew is how. When jesus talks about his coming uh, he talks about his.

He will.

Come back as you saw him go, right? And so we would look at that and we would say okay, so. Uh, that's a bodily return. Right now as as a post meal, right. And we uh me and a couple buddies we even did a show on apologetics live where we talked about Jesus's coming in 70 ad was a judgment, but that's not his second coming.

That's not what jesus means when he talks about his second coming. Uh, so when jesus says he will return right. And What he's saying there is in the same way. He went he went bodily. And so they saw him bodily.

So therefore he must return bodily. How do they get around that?

Um, and what's interesting there is especially among some baptist confessions or statements of faith you see and. Do you believe in the visible bodily and they put that word bodily in there? You believe in the visible bodily return of the lord.

Always wondered uh years, you know, where did that word bodily? Where did that when did that get inserted? Well, the reason why it's inserted in there is because he ascended bodily. Therefore logically he will he will return bodily in the same body, right?

That's that's perfectly natural logical to to think that what what the full preterists do is that uh, the Jesus is going up in a cloud is that his body at that point is transformed absorbed loses any of its human Attributes qualities a quantity and is.

You know, yeah, that that's really.

Explanations begin because so if you ask like larry siegel who's been in this for 30 Some years, you know, like larry's is an old friend of mine, but he's he's a full preterist.

Um.

And he traveled around with jack scott and don preston and all these guys. So he really knows full preterism backwards and forwards and he's a full preterist. So he says beyond that we can only speculate but we cannot reason that jesus retained His body whereas the logic would seem to demand it unless i'm specifically told.

Oh, and by the way, he no longer retains his body. So the statement do you believe in the visible bodily is because that's just a logical it just. It's deduced if he ascended bodily His descent will be bodily.

So.

Otherwise.

So i'm.

They don't have an explanation for it, right?

Yeah, so because because as a partial preterist right when jesus is quoting daniel and he talks about Uh, the son of man coming up to the ancient of days, right? We would view that as his ascension. Yeah, we have.

Yes, and and so if he's coming up to the ancient of days. Uh, he's sitting on the throne. The lord is making the earth his footstool. Um, right we. All all that's implicated. There is bodily functions right there seeing him bodily he's coming up bodily and so.

How do they how do they get around that. Because i'm sure they believe the same.

About when jesus quotes daniel there the most likely answer I gave and that don would give is that that's all vision. It's just visions. You're not you can't take it literal. And that's that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Um is is that. Like the transfiguration that really didn't happen. They had a vision. So that's that's how you get around that. There's because the word vision is there, you know, yeah or uh-oh that word in greek.

Um, Uh, you can use that and Usually it's they solve it. They they solve it. Right, they saw elijah they saw moses.

Um.

And knew who they were immediately. So I thought well, that's a little glimpse of the new heavens and new earth right there. He's giving him a little glimpse Of the glory to come and then. You know now we're back into the here and now again.

That's what I think is going on and a lot of scholars think that's what the intention of the gospel stories are telling us. That he's giving him a little peek that I am the daniel son of man all glory power and judgment is mine.

Moses and elijah are at my right and my left hand. I'm the supreme. This is the reality but don't tell anybody this yet. You know now now's not the time so. Uh, but they they get around all of that because it's all just visionary and therefore it's not actual it's not real and so it's that's beyond that uh.

And there really isn't any other explanation in that other than the necessity that they have to do that. Because you can't have jesus in a human body. As we speak right now at the right hand of the father which in orthodoxy we retain that bodily.

Yes in our systematic theologies charles hodge. You can go down the list. I mean he has to be just a human being retained space location in the heavenly dimensions that. At the right hand of the father as a human being as we Shall also in heaven and on earth in the new heavens and new earth.

So that's resurrection. They've got to get away from all that language because of jesus Ascended bodily and is now as we speak bodily the man christ. Jesus jesus of nazareth. Well, the whole house of cards comes falling down.

So I wrote an article a long time ago saying you we got to get rid of the body. You're using a soprano's line, yeah, you know, we're good fellows or whoever, you know, we got it, you know. We got to hide the body, right?

Um, and they do they have to they have to do that.

The Bodily Return of Christ and the Resurrection

Well, and that's the thing that I kind of noticed when talking with them is that that it just seemed like so much of the. So much of what I I was hearing was just redefinition of terms which always concerns me.

An inconsistency between Literal and spiritual. Right. So it's they would just jump. Oh, well, that's literal that's spiritual within the same text without any.

Any.

Basic explanation from the text of why to take something literal or spiritual at different times. And and that's the thing that really frustrated me in in the discussion because as someone that does debate When we debate we we need to have a clear understanding of the definition of terms that we that we agree to.

Um, are you familiar with. I'm seeing this movement, I don't know how big it is. I'm, just seeing it in passing through the other things i'm reading.

Um.

There's this there's this movement among mormons.

Uh.

More the more educated or intellectual Defenders of mormonism that are trying to move in and to show how they mormons are actually can dialogue and are at home with evangelicalism and and they're they're that we share the same kind of vocabulary and we share and they're kind of.

They're kind of wanting to join in with the evangelical concern and i'm like this is interesting because that's exactly what full Preterism is trying to do is that they're evangelical. They're trying to show, you know, we all have the same kind of definitions.

Yeah, we have differences and this that and the other um, and it's that boring of terms and to somebody who's not spent 30 years like Myself, are you you know? Yeah on the surface and i'm appreciate that you mentioned that in the beginning on the surface.

Yes, that can be very confusing you know that's. That's where they pray at.

So the the book that that kind of started that dialogue was a book called how wide the divide where they had a mormon. And an evangelical get together. And when you read that is going on then. Yeah, yeah, I mean Unfortunately, unfortunately there what you had was more of the evangelical caving on his views.

To say look we we can agree with mormonism the the thing though that I a really interesting thing that I see you you look at the catholic church, which said that when we believed in salvation by faith alone in christ alone.

Right grace alone. That was anathema that that belief in Justification by christ alone sentenced you to hell. That's what they said. Now they're trying to say well, we're christians too. There's no difference, right?

You had the same thing with jehovah witnesses with the mormons, right? They they say we're we're the false religion. Now they're trying to say but we're christians just like you. Wait, you can't have both ways.

We you can't be like in mormonism where well. The the the gospel message fell away. But they have the restored gospel in the mormon church. Well, then we don't have a restored gospel. We have a false gospel and they're saying but they're like they're christian too.

No I noticed a lot of these like seventh day adventism who my stepfather was seventh day adventist, but he had You know grown away a little bit from it, but there's this and you know, I I'm i'm i'm pretty ecumenical when it comes to you know, god will sort it all out in the end kind of thing.

Um.

But there there are these movements, you know to get away from lng white you get away, you know that prophet you know, she was a prophetess and get away from. And I so that is going on in mormonism to get away from the joseph.

You know get away trying to try to get away from it and but that's that's your roots. I mean, that's yeah. It's for me. Max king. Uh full printer is a max king who is a universalist, uh, may he rest in peace.

He passed away last year so.

Um.

But his the continuing ministry living presence of max king who is I consider the father of modern. The full preterism today don preston and ed stevens and all these guys came after him.

Um.

But he he became a universalist. And i'm like that's that's your main guy right there. That's and they. A lot of people in full preterism are trying to distance. From max king from don preston. They're trying to create another.

Uh.

Evangelical quasi we're all in the same camp kind of a thing like So we have a pre-millennialist and non-millennialist and a post-millennialist which I would consider in the same camp. Because we affirm the fundamental bodily return.

Bodily resurrection new heavens and new earth all of those fundamental things we all agree on. Um, we have some details of how we're going to get there.

But.

You know, we all affirm those kinds of fundamental core basic Structures of church theology and systematic theology whether you're catholic eastern orthodox protestant. Those have been the structures that have confined.

So when you take that main Block out new heavens new earth resurrection of the dead return of christ end of history. And you throw it back here in 70 a .d. You're left out now in just this wide open world of uh.

Like.

What go what happens now?

Yeah, and that's the question I kind of asked one of them I said so if all the prophecy is fulfilled like why are we still here on earth like Like What what's god's plan here? Let me give let me just put up some comments that uh drew starred and.

So so we could have some people giving some shout outs to you. Um, we have haps addison who just said That sam frost rocks. Uh, so there you go. But you know that is. Yeah, well he he's if there was ever any proof of bigfoot that's it right there.

All right. Um, yeah, so uh standing for truth says Dr. Sam frost is.

The man.

And so um, we have um I don't know who this is because he didn't use a real name, but shroud. Nine five three says doctor. Dr. Sam frost. Exclamation point exclamation point. God Bless you for taking the time after all these years to help people grow in grace and knowledge of the lord jesus christ.

So.

Uh, we we got um. Yo, caleb gordon uh says. Full a total full preterism is full-blown heresy. By the way, I encourage everyone to go check out. Uh, caleb gordon's um, well, I guess it was I Twitter facebook, whichever.

I think he might have done both but uh. And caleb should come in here so so he could announce that his bluff was called but but caleb gordon has got a conference and you go to caleb gordon .org for the for the the details of the conference.

Um.

That we're we're going to be at it's going to be uh, it's the the built to conquer conference. So caleb gordon .org is where you get the tickets. Um, but we got it's going to be on, uh, february 22nd.

In.

Bartsville, oklahoma. So caleb. Yeah, we're coming there. It'll be uh, uh, we got caleb gordon be speaking. I'll be speaking brand of scalf. If you haven't heard him you want to come just for that. Michael uh gabe wrench.

Brett baggett. Some great speakers. But here's the thing I I said to caleb gordon that you know. If I come to the conference would he would he do jump into a cold plunge? And he was like, yeah, man, you you get a cold plunge down here.

You find a place for us to do a cold plunge and i'll do it. Okay, well today he posted a video because I called his bluff and sent a cold plunge down to his house.

So.

He he's got the cold plunge and uh, we're gonna see how many speakers get into the cold plunge. It'll be it'll be great time. Um, we have uh. Let's see. What are their comments? So, uh chance Summers says what's up guys?

And if you don't know chance chance is from 1689 cigars and I think in this topic of full preterism Chance might have a name a cigar name that would would fit with these folks. It's it's their flavored his flavored cigar brand called the pharisees.

So maybe that's what they should be smoking if they were to get some.

What have you been smoking? Yeah.

Uh claude ramsey who is a great brother in the lord says yes for being.

Steadfast.

I love you in the lord and appreciate your ministry. Um, then we have this. This is kind of an interesting one. We have Apologetics dog is he's supposed to be on here. Yeah, he's commenting and online and Saying excellent conversation fellows, but he's supposed to be here folks.