Full Preterism; Have All Prophecies Been Fulfilled?

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00:05

I'm mr. Smalley. Do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you

00:15

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

00:29

We are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions you have about God and the

00:36

Bible One of those questions we're gonna deal with tonight and that is a question of full preterism

00:43

Let me bring in my co -host Mr. Drew, how are you, sir? I'm doing well doing well.

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How are you? Good. I am feeling sick so As I told you I will probably

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You know take myself off camera as I cough and sneeze and everything else

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Is that why you're wearing that that sweater? It's so you can wipe your nose and no my my pride made me this sweater

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I will not do that Okay, you didn't do that it looks nice it is it she made it when we weren't to Cruise to Alaska and our 10th wedding anniversary

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And I'm finally wearing it 20 years later Because she she made it and she kind of just guessed how long my arms were

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So it always it like would go like this. My fingers would stick out like this So she she she was always like I should fix that So she did she actually took the time to take the shoulders off and take it out

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So but I like it looks nice. Yeah, you got to love a good sweater Yeah, so so I before we introduce our guest and the show we have

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I Told you I may or may not be making a big announcement here, but that's right.

01:56

Yeah shocking one, too Yeah, I I'm gonna have to admit man if there's ever been a case

02:02

I must be post mill I mean Donald Trump got elected and everything is good in the last nine days.

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I mean, that's right Everything he's doing everything that's happening If there was ever an argument for post mill, it would be what's going on right now because I'm seeing things

02:17

I never expected would be happening, especially in America Apparently RFK jr.

02:23

Went from supporting abortion full -term abortion to now He's every abortion is wrong

02:29

I Mean Like we're saying I mean You're now seeing hey you do you're really bad criminal.

02:38

What will you're here illegally? Okay, we'll ship you the Guantanamo Your country doesn't want you back We got a place for you.

02:45

That's right. We do I mean Excuse me. Yeah, I am just I am as much as I thought

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Trump might do as president Wow, he is he's done more in nine days or ten days now

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Well, then Joe Biden did Like his entire four years. Yeah, all 50 years.

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He's been in 60 years in Congress. Yeah, or said it so Let me bring in dr.

03:17

Sam Frost So Let me explain how we got around to this topic of full preterism and then

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I'm gonna let dr Frost introduce himself and say see why he is in here for this and and this is an appeal to any of you

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Twitter Followers that were there wanting to tell me how You know full preterism cannot be disputed now is your chance to come in and prove to us how

03:48

Unrefutable your position really is This this episode started because and Sam you've been here before But we did have we

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I put out a post innocent enough. I just asked people their views Amil Postmill pre mill.

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This is probably the least controversial post Andrew has ever put. I Didn't make any claims.

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I just asked everyone their view right simple enough the full preterist came in in groups and and I kind of you know,

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I look I've Drew, you know, I've dealt with the black you were Israelites I've taught how to deal with them and how they they do that group think where they

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They never come in one at a time They come in a bunch at a time and feed off each other Yeah, and ignore what you say because they're just really talking to each other and then going.

04:39

Yeah. Yeah, that's right You said it you got him and they don't actually listen to what you're saying. Well, that's what went on in my on my poll there and I kept asking them as I always do for folks to say would you come on to a politics live?

04:55

Let's let's debate it. I said if you guys because they were telling me it was undeniable Undeniable and I said well then you should have no problem coming in and doing a debate

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And they kept several of them all appealed and tagged some guy Michael Sullivan, which

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I know Sam you said, you know, who he is Yeah, I Said okay, and as and as Michael came in all of them backed away and said, oh

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Michael can handle it. Okay So what ended up happening was? Michael says he's willing to do it.

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I said great. I I've reached out to Sam Frost and he'd be happy to debate you to which he was like Oh, no that that guy's running from two debates for me already.

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He won't hand he can't handle answering his own book He's he's running for me.

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Therefore. I'm not gonna do it And then a bunch of people said how Michael agreed to debate and that Sam is running from I said look on this thread

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I only see one person who's running and it's not Sam because he's not even in the thread

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To which hours later when I told Sam about this, he went on to the thread and said

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I'm willing to debate. Yeah Yes out there right Nothing to see here.

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It was the classic troll move I mean if there were if there if Sam if Sam Frost ever did a

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Donald Trump move that there was Just get right out the thing say I'm here. I'll debate. Yeah So it was

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It was funny because this guy Michael Sullivan and I could see Sam why he's afraid to debate you

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Be because basically he Remembered all I did was ask people.

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What is their view? Amil post mill pre mill and he told me and for regular listeners, you'll get the humor in this

06:48

He told me I need to defend on millennialism To which I said why and he said because you made the claim you have to support it

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I said all I did was ask what people's position is in a poll. Yeah, he says no you're all mill

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To which I said no, you know Said if you if you're really good at debating you should learn the first thing is to know your opponent.

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I'm not all mill To which this one woman who kept telling me she what she's willing to have a written debate

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Which I told her I wouldn't written debates are not good because people like she was doing just ignore what what

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I'm saying And you can't do that when you're actually like in person And so she would she posts in a response to this guy

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Michael Sullivan She actually I mean, this is just classic. She posts a link to our doctrinal statement.

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It's driving for eternity and Claims he's not all mill. I read his doctrinal statement.

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He's post mill Two out of three You think they can get one

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I'm like You got one more guess Somebody else was finally respondent said because she said she read it and someone said, um, he's pre mill

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The last one you got right, yeah Well, that was someone else that's not a full preterist.

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So two full preterists got it wrong And so it was it was just hilarious because she said she read it and She was like we she told me

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I was running from a written debate from her. I said and my response was As a woman you shouldn't be teaching the

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Bible so I would never have agreed to a written debate with you so you should repent of both teaching men and Your your false teaching of full preterism so so that shows you the a competence and reading level of a good deal of full preterists

08:52

Yeah, I mean that's why I played the intro that we did with with David Smalley Where he he didn't want to debate me.

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He you know, he'd rather debate Matt slick over me Well, I guess Sam all the full preterists are here backstage that wanted to debate you.

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I'll bring them all in right now You see them all oh

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I should have done the thing that I did for the Appointed It's undeniable, but they're all afraid you're you can't defend yourself, but none of them are here

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Funny how that works and and so you know, Sam, you probably don't know I did this But many years ago, we had black

09:33

Hebrew Israelites that kept telling me they would debate me, but they would never show up here and so we actually had one scheduled who's gonna be me against three black

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Hebrew Israelites and And Like Tuesday, so the shows on Thursday Tuesday, they all blocked me and the moderator

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So we couldn't keep in the link which then they went around saying that we were we wouldn't provide the link because we were scared and so on the show we announced, you know, we they blocked us and We could we can't provide a link to so I told the

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I told my moderator. I said look here. Let's have a debate Just do debate introduce me.

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I'll do the opening introduce the black Hebrew Israelites. He's like, who are you gonna have? They they blocked us. I said just do it.

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He had no idea what I was gonna do So I do my opening. He said we're gonna have the black

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Hebrews rights that are gonna debate Andrew here They're gonna introduce themselves and I threw up a picture of an empty chair

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Classic just here. So Sam the empty chair for Elijah. Yeah That's for Passover, that's correct

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Introduce yourself. So folks know me first off introduce who you are Let's give a high -level overview of full preterism what it is for folks that may not know and and then explain why it is that you'd be here because You know,

11:02

I love he bows down so we could see the rest of the book I'm selling I'm selling my library

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It's so hard to do and and I get this I've told him before the show I want to come to his house and just you know, like get down there to see that library

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It just like goes on and on That's well, that's not all my it's my two boys ones

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Works at the state capitol here in Indianapolis, but he's a poli sci Major and then my other one he's in Indiana University and they grew up with me

11:35

So they buy books just like I do and they didn't have any place for them So they end up downstairs here and they become your books

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I keep building and adding shelves and going around the corner and everything so Can't bring ourselves, you know to get

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To get rid of them, but they're all top -tier reference and specific, you know Non -fiction kind of kind of works that we look for hand -picked just very specific.

11:58

You can't buy everything Popular stuff we get rid of and just focus in on the

12:08

More impactful kind of well like this one. This one was just sent to me as a gift Oxford handbook on the book of Revelation by Kistler And I was wanting to get this very expensive and someone sent it to me as a gift

12:21

Elton Holland who you know Thank you, Elton Nice wait to dive into this thing.

12:26

I just got this yesterday. I need friends like yours people said so After a few years.

12:34

Yeah, you were a massive collection. Do you I think drew ever sends me his bills? Huh? The only thing drew ever sends me is his bills

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Oh Bill. Yeah, I need someone to pay him, you know So Full platter ism.

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Well People have said some of your debaters probably on Twitter I just got asked this by a

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Phil Jones on the Facebook of how familiar am I was full preterism in order to debunk it

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This is misplaced hope I wrote that in 2003 as a full preterist, you know, this was one of mine

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That sold thousands of copies of this one Tim King and Max King put put that put that one out and then

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I wrote this one exegetical essays this got sold out and I Republished it

13:30

Don Preston who is bar none the most prolific full preterist author out there

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He now publishes this book. I've asked him not to but he continues to publish it

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He says it continues to sell as one of the best full preterist books ever written if that tells you anything that I don't understand full preterism, but I I can easily debunk that because Don Preston sells this book still to this day, even though I have renounced full preterism and then you mentioned

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Michael Sullivan and There I am and there's

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Michael Sullivan and I House divided now when I left, of course, they had to take my name and chapter out but There it is.

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And so those are the three works that I have That I participated and spoke at over 25 lectures across the

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United States from 2003 2008 Had one of the very few full preterist acting churches

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Which we founded and pastored in st. Petersburg Christ Covenant Church and was producing a lot of CDs and materials and pamphlets and booklets and things of that nature

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I You know sold my sold my life to it. I this was this was uh,

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I Knew Max King personally and Tim King and I know Don Preston personally and Ed Stephens Personally and I met

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Jack Scott and William Bell and all these guys we roomed together Doug Kurt, you know,

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David Curtis you know, we personally would you know fellowship together in hotel rooms and and Hotel lobbies and conference hall lobbies and things of that nature

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So I got to know these guys pretty well and listen, you know, a lot of these guys are nice You know

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American are nice guys guys. You wouldn't mind needed them some some help or whatever

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But the the theology of it A full preterism, which basically is that every prophecy that's in the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation is exhaustively fulfilled by the time of 70

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AD the 9th of Which would be what in the Jewish would be

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August 9th. So by that time All the prophecies from Genesis to Revelation are all exhaustively fulfilled by that time and so after that time

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There's no prophecy left in any way shape or form to be fulfilled in our future at all

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That's the full preterist or what I call the hyper preterist view. That's basically the view so that's that would be the the the

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Declarative statement or the statement of what it is. They believe all prophecy is fulfilled by by the time of 70

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AD and then of course the flood of questions if you've been raised in a church or you've been in church for a few years and Like all things church.

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What about the resurrection? What about the new heavens and new earth? What about you know, these are just immediate questions that will come up and so What about the resurrection well, that's what about the resurrection what about church history the early church fathers and What about the inconsistencies of views that are out there already?

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That's so we covered we covered all that and Looking back on it

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Yet increasingly became more difficult Because these questions like we'll take the word death

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Death now is entirely Totally divorced From what you and I know as just no death the funerals cemeteries

17:34

Getting ill getting cancer people in our families in our lives that we're going through What we're heading towards That's not what the

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Bible is talking about. The Bible is talking about spiritual deaths You got to get around all that stuff. So Go ahead

17:53

Two hours to discuss. Yeah, so they keep making an issue over the over death. Yeah Yeah, and I I didn't so I didn't know that they make a big deal like that There's because I asked them what is death and I I couldn't get a definition from any of them

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Yeah, yeah in my view death is I death is separation right physical death is separation of the spirit from the body

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It's you know Your spiritual death is our separation of a fellowship with with God an eternal death is a permanent separation

18:26

You know, so they all the idea of separation But they kept using it and and they kept using it in a way because because I kept bringing up Daniel 9 which we'll get to the 70 weeks of Daniel, but Drew you had a really interesting point that you had when we talked about this of you know, cuz cuz as You know

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Sam just mentioned right? They believe all the all prophecies are done in 78

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I know you're you're a post mill. So you're you're close to the truth, but you know, you're not not there yet as a pre -meal

19:04

Pre -meal and all meal and a post mill on this. Yeah. Yeah, and and we all think we're the right ones

19:13

Yeah, you know we're gonna find out who's right one day but but yet you had an interesting point though with the the prophecies that We would you really like to see the full preterists say when it happened

19:30

Mm -hmm. Yeah, maybe Sam could explain when that happened from a full press view, but why don't you get into that?

19:35

the one thing that I mentioned with Andrews how When Jesus talks about his coming he talks about his he will

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Come back as you saw him go, right? And so we would look at that and we would say, okay, so That's a bodily return

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Right now as a post mill right and we me and a couple buddies we even did a show on apologetics live where we talked about Jesus is coming in 70 ad was a judgment, but that's not his second coming

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That's not what Jesus means when he talks about his second coming so when

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Jesus says he will return right and What he's saying there is in the same way.

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He went he went bodily And so they saw him bodily. So therefore he must return bodily.

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How do they get around that? and what's interesting there is especially among some

20:37

Baptist confessions or statements of faith you see and Do you believe in the visible bodily and they put that word bodily in there?

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You believe in the visible bodily return of the Lord always wondered years, you know, where did that word bodily? Where did that when did that get inserted?

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Well, the reason why it's inserted in there is because he ascended bodily Therefore logically he will he will return bodily in the same body

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That's that's perfectly natural logical to think that what what the full preterists do is that?

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the Jesus is going up in a cloud. Is that his body at that point is transformed absorbed loses any of its human

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Attributes qualities Quantity and is You know, yeah, that's really

21:30

Explanations begin because so if you ask like Larry Siegel who's been in this for 30 some years, you know

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Like Larry's is an old friend of mine, but he's a full preterist And he traveled around with Jack Scott and Don Preston all these guys

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So he really knows full preterism backwards and forwards and he's a full preterist So he says beyond that we can only speculate but we cannot reason that Jesus retained

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His body whereas the logic would seem to demand it unless I'm specifically told Oh, and by the way, he no longer retains his body so the statement do you believe in the visible bodily is because that's just a logical it just It's deduced if he ascended bodily his descent will be bodily.

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So is Otherwise so I'm They don't have an explanation for it, right?

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Yes, because because as a partial preterist right when Jesus is quoting

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Daniel and he talks about The Son of Man coming up to the Ancient of Days, right?

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We would view that as his ascension. Yeah Yeah, and and so if he's coming up to the

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Ancient of Days He's sitting on the throne. The Lord is making the earth his footstool

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Right. We all all that's implicated. There is bodily functions right there seeing him bodily.

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He's coming up bodily And so how do they how do they get around that because I'm sure they believe the same

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About when Jesus quotes Daniel there the most likely answer I gave and that Don would give is that that's all vision

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It's just visions You're not you can't take it literal And that's that's pretty much it in a nutshell

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Is is that like the transfiguration that really didn't happen? They had a vision

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That's how you get around that There's because the word vision is there, you know, yeah, or uh -oh that word in Greek You can use that and Usually it's they solve it.

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They they solve this right? They saw Elijah. They saw Moses and Knew who they were immediately.

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So I thought well, that's a little glimpse of the new heavens and new earth right there He's giving him a little glimpse of the glory to come and then you know now we're back into the here and now again

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That's what I think is going on And a lot of scholars think that's what the intention of the gospel stories are telling us

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That he's giving him a little peek I am the Daniel son of man all glory power and judgment is mine

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Moses and Elijah are at my right and my left hand. I'm the supreme This is the reality, but don't tell anybody this yet You know now it's not the time.

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So But they they get around all of that because it's all just visionary and therefore it's not actual it's not real and So it's that's beyond that There really isn't any other explanation in that other than the necessity that they have to do that because you can't have

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Jesus in a human body as We speak right now at the right hand of the father which in orthodoxy we retain that bodily yes in our systematic theologies

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Charles, ah, you can go down the list. I mean he has to be just a human being retained space location in the heavenly dimensions that at the right hand of the father as a human being as we

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Shall also in heaven and on earth in the new heavens and new earth. So that's resurrection

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They've got to get away from all that language because of Jesus Ascended bodily and is now as we speak bodily the man

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Christ Jesus Jesus of Nazareth Well, the whole house of cards comes falling down So I wrote an article a long time ago saying you we got to get rid of the body

25:25

You're using a sopranos line. Yeah, you know, we're good fellows or whoever, you know, we got it

25:30

You know, we got to hide the body, right? They do they have to they have to do that well, and that's the thing that I kind of noticed when talking with them is that that it just seemed to like so much of the

25:45

So much of what I was here was just redefinition of terms, which always concerns me an inconsistency between Literal and spiritual right?

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So it's they would just jump. Oh, well, that's literal that spiritual within the same text without any

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Basic explanation from the text of why to take something literal or spiritual at different times and And that's the thing that really frustrated me in in the discussion because as someone that does debate

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When we debate we we need to have a clear understanding of the definition of terms

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That we that we agree to I'm familiar with I'm seeing this movement.

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I don't know how big it is. I'm just seeing it in passing through the other things I'm reading There's this there's this movement among Mormons More the more educated or intellectual

26:45

Defenders of Mormonism that are trying to move in and to show how they Mormons are actually

26:51

Can dialogue and are at home with evangelicalism and and they're there that we share the same kind of vocabulary and we share and they're kind of they're kind of wanting to Join in with the evangelical concern and I'm like, this is interesting because that's exactly what full preterism is trying to do

27:07

Is that they're evangelical they're trying to show, you know, we don't have the same kind of definitions Yeah, we have differences and this that and the other and it's boring of terms and to somebody who's not spent 30 years like Myself are you you know?

27:21

Yeah on the surface and I'm appreciate that you mentioned that in the beginning on the surface. Yes, that can be very confusing you know that's

27:29

That's where they pray at So the the book that that kind of started that dialogue was a book called how wide the divide where they had a

27:41

Mormon and an evangelical and And when you read that is going on them, yeah, yeah

27:48

I mean actually unfortunately there what you had was more of the evangelical caving on his views to say look we can agree with Mormonism the the thing though that I Really interesting thing that I see you you look at the

28:02

Catholic Church, which said that when we? Believed in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone

28:09

Right grace alone that was anathema that that belief in Justification by Christ alone sentenced you to hell

28:18

That's what they said. Now. They're trying to say well, we're Christians too. There's no difference, right?

28:24

You had the same thing with Jehovah Witnesses with the Mormons, right? They say we're the false religion

28:31

Now they're trying to say but we're Christians just like you wait You can't have both ways we you can't be like in Mormonism where well

28:38

The the the gospel message fell away But they had the restored gospel in the

28:45

Mormon Church. Well, then we don't have a restored gospel We have a false gospel and they're saying but they're like they're

28:54

Christian too No, I noticed a lot of these like Seventh -day Adventism who my stepfather was

29:00

Seventh -day Adventist, but he had you know grown away a little bit from it, but there's this and you know,

29:07

I I'm I'm pretty ecumenical when it comes to you know, God will sort it all out in the end kind of thing

29:14

But there there are these movements, you know to get away from Ellen G white you get away, you know that prophet

29:19

You know, she was a prophetess and get away from and I so that is going on in Mormonism We get away from the

29:25

Joseph's get away from it. And that's that's your roots. I mean, that's yeah for me

29:32

Max King Full predator is a Max King who is a universalist may he rest in peace.

29:39

He passed away last year. So But his the continuing ministry living presence of Max King who is

29:46

I consider the father of modern Full predator ism today Don Preston and Ed Stevens and all these guys came after him

29:55

But he he became a universalist and I'm like that's that's your main guy right there

30:01

And a lot of people in full predators and we're trying to distance from Max King from Don Preston They're trying to create another

30:13

Evangelical quasi we're all in the same camp kind of a thing like so we have a pre -millennialist and Amillennialist and a post -millennialist which

30:21

I would consider in the same camp Because we affirm the fundamental bodily return

30:27

Bodily resurrection new heavens and new earth all of those fundamental things. We all agree on We have some details of how we're going to get there.

30:36

But you know, we all affirm those kinds of fundamental core basic Structures of church theology and systematic theology whether you're

30:47

Catholic Eastern Orthodox Protestant Those have been the structures that have confined So when you take that main block out new heavens new earth resurrection of the dead return of Christ end of history

30:57

And you throw it back here in 70 AD. You're left out now. I'm just this wide open world

31:07

What happens now, yeah questions I kind of asked one of them I said so if all the prophecies fulfilled like why are we still here on earth like like What's God's plan here?

31:18

Let me give let me just put up some comments that drew starred and so so we could have some people giving some shoutouts to you

31:25

We have haps Addison who just said that Sam Frost rocks

31:31

So there you go, but you know that is hap Yeah, well, he's if there was ever any proof of Bigfoot.

31:39

That's it right there Yeah, so standing for truth says dr.

31:45

Sam Frost is and so We have

31:51

Who this is because he's a real name but shroud Nine five three says dr.

31:59

Dr. Sam Frost exclamation point exclamation point God bless you for taking the time after all these years to help people grow in grace and knowledge of the

32:11

Lord Jesus Christ so we got Yo, Caleb Gordon says

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Full a total full preterism is full -blown heresy, by the way, I encourage everyone to go check out

32:26

Caleb Gordon's Well, I guess was I Twitter Facebook, whichever I think he might have done both but and Caleb should come in here

32:35

So so he could announce that his bluff was called But but Caleb Gordon has got a conference in Google to Caleb Gordon org for the for the details of the conference

32:46

That we're gonna be at it's going to be It's the the built to conquer conference.

32:52

So Caleb Gordon org is where you get the tickets but we got it's going to be on February 22nd in Bartsville, Oklahoma so Caleb Yeah, we're coming there.

33:06

It'll be We got Caleb Gordon be speaking I'll be speaking brand of scalp if you haven't heard him you want to come just for that Gabe wrench

33:19

Brett Baggett some great speakers, but here's the thing. I Said to Caleb Gordon that you know, if I come to the conference would he would he do jump into a cold plunge?

33:33

And he was like, yeah, man, you you get a cold plunge down here You find a place for us to do a cold plunge and I'll do it okay, well today he posted a video because I Called his bluff and sent a cold plunge down to his house.

33:48

So He's got the cold plunge and we're gonna see how many speakers get into the cold plunge.

33:55

It'll be it'll be great time we have Let's see where their comments so chance

34:02

Summers says what's up guys? And if you don't know chance chance is from 1689 cigars and I think in this topic of full preterism

34:12

Chance might have a name a cigar name that would would fit with these folks It's it's their flavored has flavored cigar brand called the

34:20

Pharisees So maybe that's what they should be smoking if they were to get some

34:29

Yeah Claude Ramsey who is a great brother in the Lord says yes for being

34:37

I love you in the Lord and appreciate your ministry Then we have this this is kind of an interesting one we have

34:46

Apologetics dog is supposed to be on here. Yeah, he's commenting and online and Excellent conversation fellows, but he's supposed to be here folks

34:59

Was supposed to be here we do hope on top of the hour when he puts his child to bed his wife is sick So be praying for them.

35:04

We'll set him up a debate. We'll get him to debate Mike Sullivan So Claude Claude also said doing good

35:15

I gleam wisdom from dr. Frost so a question a question that came in And it came in from our a pre mill in the house

35:25

But this is from Michael a guy who's local to me here, Philly He says do all in the camp deny a future 1 ,000 year kingdom on earth

35:42

The thousand years is symbolic of the time from the Ascension of Jesus, which will say 33 a .d

35:50

to 70 a .d And in between that time is John's symbolic

35:58

Thousand years I'm gonna let that stay right there You heard it heard it for me.

36:05

I'm not making this up. I used to kind of I Wrote a paper when

36:11

I was a full preterist on this because I was really So here's here's the break. Here's the gist.

36:16

Okay, so a thousand years is clearly a nice round No symbolic number even among pre millennial

36:22

John Walbert or whoever you read know they recognize that yes You know, it's not gonna be 365 actually sadly, you know and right down to the exact and then at that second, you know

36:32

It's got to tick off. So but it's a nice this nice indefinite round period of time

36:40

It's a symbol that's found in scriptures when thousand is used a thousand God owns the cattle on a thousand hills

36:47

You've heard all this to the thousandth generation and it's out So a thousand is this long this nice symbol for this long indefinite period of time or a large number

36:57

And so that that's whether you're all millennial pre millennial post millennial you can wrap your head around that and say yeah

37:05

Okay. Yeah So Since it's here's the argument since it is a symbolic number

37:14

Then it could be 37 years or you know 2 ,000 years or three thousand one hundred and seventy five years or whatever it could be so the symbol but the problem there is that the symbol thousand is never found anywhere where the

37:31

Actuality of the time that it's standing for as a metaphor or as a symbol is never reduced or less than So that's that's the matter that would break down on the metaphor

37:44

So if you're all millennial a thousand years can be a much larger actual period of time 1900 years and counting or post millennialism 1900 years or counting or even in pre millennialism it could go over a thousand, you know

37:58

Actual You could go over that whatever but the

38:03

Preterist shrinks the actual number that the thousand is representing they shrink it to what is that 33 to 70 would be?

38:12

37 years So it actually actually means only 37 years now if you can you clearly see let me let me say this to and I want you guys to comment because When I wrote my article on this and I was really like we got a big giant

38:28

This is probably one of the biggest hurdles Next to resurrection of the dead. This one would be the biggest the hurdle.

38:35

This is the big one after you buy into all of the time text and buy into all of the this generation and you buy into all of the

38:46

Old Covenant ended in 70 AD Buy in to bring in the Josephus you bring in and you have this whole

38:53

Nice built kind of thing going on here and then you read Revelation 20 you're forced into that Consideration could you ever?

39:03

Teach full preterism and start at Revelation 20 Absolutely, not

39:09

Could you could you teach full preterism by starting in 1st Corinthians 15? No Don Preston and I would agree we talked on the phone.

39:18

It's like no we got a start at Matthew 24 mark 13 we got to start with those time to once we whittle that away and Show that all these things must take place within this particular period of time

39:32

Then naturally you're going to assume or deduce from this thing that we've built here

39:39

Then you're going to deduce. Well, the Millennium has to fit in there and you're like, well, yeah It has to and so it's not going to be really a problem there once you've done that but if you're coming in from the outside looking at full preterism and you hear that the

39:52

Thousand years is from 33 to 70 AD and I've said this to people

39:57

I travel a lot of churches and Nazarenes and Baptists and Presbyterians and all this stuff and They asked this and they said that's that's like the deal -breaker for them right there and they don't want to hear any more

40:10

Just that's that's insane. How do they do that? Well, you've got a buy -in to the system first in order to do that because you'll never get that out of Revelation 20

40:21

Millennial or premillennial you'll never get that out of it. That was the thing. I kept struggling with the folks I said look I kept going to Daniel the 70 weeks of Daniel and I said, it's just math

40:32

Right, it's it. I would ask them. Okay, so you got 77 year periods

40:39

Were the first 69 Fulfilled literally and they agree.

40:45

I Said okay. So the last seven year period how do you get whether you want to say that it started when

40:52

Jesus? started his ministry Or you want to say that that was you know?

40:58

Started at his death You're still talking 33 Plus 7.

41:05

How do you get 70 AD? Well, there's a gap Yeah well no, because that was the whole thing is they were telling me that I can't have a gap as a premillennial is to say that Yeah, like that was the irony is like they they tried to argue for a gap and then argued that I can't have the gap

41:24

Yeah, it's like wait You can have like it. This was hysterical because So in Daniel in Daniel chapter 9

41:33

Was gonna go here later, but let me just bring it up This is day for folks that might want to look it up Daniel 9 24 to 27

41:41

What you see is this prophecy given to Daniel of seven seven year periods. It's it's actually not weeks in Hebrew.

41:48

It's seven sevens Okay He gives he gives here

41:55

Some very specific things that will happen at the end of the 70th week

42:01

He says in verse 24 that when the weeks have been decreed your people and your holy city to finish the transgressions to make an end of sin to make atonement for iniquity to bring everlasting righteousness

42:17

To seal up visions and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

42:22

So there's there are several things there That are there six things there that should take place, right?

42:30

So he talks about a in verse 25 you see chronological language right seven weeks and 62 weeks for for the decree to rebuild for the for the you know of the the building of the temple and then of a completed period and it says

42:50

Verse 26 then after 60 the 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off.

42:55

So we know that Messiah comes after that Second period so there's a seven week period a 62 week period a one week period and so Yo, I'm going.

43:08

Okay, so you're saying the 62 weeks occurs with Christ being cut off That's his his death

43:17

And I go, okay, they would take that. Yeah, so I go. Okay, so let's add seven to 33

43:24

We've he died in 33 Seven years later would be 40 ad not 70 ad.

43:31

I'm like help me understand the mass. Yeah And let me let me say this because I did for a little

43:39

I wrote up my commentary on Daniel Yeah, where I worked through translation and then I you know had that had that published and stuff

43:47

So I would take a little bit different. I'm more of the Even though I'm stops conservative. I I kind of side more on the

43:54

James Charles worth and the liberal side I guess what you'd call the liberal side on them, but that's neither here nor there

44:00

The only reason I bring that up is because they'll use that between me and you know Say see you guys disagree on the yeah, great.

44:07

We just I yeah, we all disagree on but the fundamentals again I come back to the fundamentals, but in their case where they do

44:16

Take what it is that you're saying. That's how they calculate that. Yeah, they end up with this gap.

44:22

You can't You can't avoid it Justin Went kicking and screaming trying to do everything he could to get the math to work out and then finally came to the conclusion

44:33

You know that there was a gap because we would always make fun of the dispensationalist because they have the gap thing going on That's right.

44:40

One of the strengths of our full preterist argument is that we have no gap. Well, lo and behold You do

44:46

Listen What they would do is the way they explain it. It gave me a paper to read which basically said like yes

44:53

The first period of time literal the second period of time literal the third period of time figurative

44:59

Yeah, and yeah, but what in the like harmonetics? There's got to be a reason that you suddenly change.

45:05

You know, you got an agenda going on there, correct? Well, that's the thing. I kept saying work make

45:12

A square peg going into a circle kind of thing, you know, and you mentioned it in there the starting point for them

45:18

It seems is math that I the ones I was debating with is

45:23

Matthew 24 34 okay, and they start there and then try to read the rest of the

45:30

Bible into yeah, that's and That's the thing Well, it's a it's a it's a logical fallacy they they have a fallacy because they they you have to start with the conclusion, right

45:44

So it's it's a begging the question fallacy. Well, let me read that the passage I referenced and that is it says

45:52

Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place

45:59

So they make a big emphasis it seems on this generation So it had to have been 70

46:05

AD that all these things take place and so Like they start with that and one person even said well

46:14

Jesus couldn't give a false prophecy And this he is a prophecy now.

46:19

The debate is really over. What is that generation? right

46:25

Is that the generation that saw the You know saw the the things that we're you know, like that we're discussing here or is it is it the generation

46:37

You know generation that sees these signs or is it the generation that's standing there before Christ? I will say this if folks listen one of the other podcasts we have in the

46:46

Christian podcast community is called Bible sojourner and Pete Gaiman who's a seminary professor of Old Testament Went into recently an episode dealing with this

46:56

Yeah with it first and and showing how this the passage here is a future tense and So it wouldn't have had to been fulfilled in 70

47:07

AD. It could have been he didn't necessarily do that He said this is why

47:12

I think it's future tense, but he gave other possibilities as well, correct? Yeah, but but the thing is this millennial predator partial predators and you're not pointing to the strains as I see them

47:24

You're up for yeah, so you do figure that so this generation that faced there's a wealth of literature

47:32

There's a wealth of literature on it and and and many of the arguments are very They have their strengths weaknesses the contemporary idea of the contemporary idea that has a lot of strengths

47:43

To it just because of the usage of this generation. He's obviously contemporary speaking to however

47:48

There's you go back to the Septuagint and you begin to look at this phrase this generation

47:54

Which first occurs in the story of Noah and and there's a couple of other little phrases. So people scholars like Ewald another will note particularly

48:03

Deuteronomy this generation, you know, you have that phrasing there and so can that mean brood of Vipers a a a

48:13

Generating a generating people of Vipers this generation And so Jesus is saying this generation will not pass away until all these things meaning

48:21

You're going to continue to put up with this kind of people until the end You know, well, okay.

48:27

I yeah, it's you know Regardless There are multiple ways.

48:35

I think in my own work in in the Greek text is showing that Jesus even if he is saying all these things

48:44

That's in the plural all these all what things well if you go to the beginning of Matthew He tells you what all these things are earthquakes famines persecution hatred

48:55

The gospel will be continued to be preached as a testimony. There'll be all these kinds of all these things

49:01

These are the beginning things. These are beginning birth pains tribulations afflictions earthquakes financial

49:08

Disaster, you know all this kind of stuff Did that generation see these things? Yes, but the end

49:15

That's separated off. But the end is not yet so GK Beal da

49:20

Carson a few hours Understand that Jesus is saying here's all these things and they're going to continue until the end

49:29

Well, when is the end? Well, I'm not here to tell you that Definite period of time

49:35

Rather than Jesus saying oh, I'm gonna return in this generation, which he never says

49:40

He never says that I'm gonna return in this generation. I'm gonna raise the dead in this generation

49:47

He just says all these things will take place in this generation before this generation passes away Well, what's going to come after this generation?

49:54

Well another generation in other words times going to continue on even though I'm the king

50:00

I'm the Messiah all power and judgment authorities given to me. I'm at the right hand of the father I fulfilled Psalm 2

50:05

Psalm 110 Psalm 16. All these Psalms are yes That's all speaking of me But there's but but the tribulation the famines the earthquakes wars rumors of wars

50:15

Those things are going to continue on for how long? No man knows how long there.

50:22

So what do I got to do in the meantime be awake be alert Suffer through persevere endure.

50:29

Oh That's relevant, yeah, okay, so I Think if you take and even in the pre -millennial circles, you see that idea of alertness readiness

50:41

That kind of thing. So, you know, it's an interesting debate The only reason I'm sorry to be long -winded

50:47

The only reason I bring it up is because here the full predators will seize upon you two brothers

50:53

And maybe some differences you have and that's where we pounced That's what this book right here is all about And since you two guys debate on what this generation is the full predators has the answer.

51:07

It's and we I Wanted you to speak to that. So what do you do in spite of your differences and Yet you still have these fundamental kind of things, you know, that's that's as an apology for full predatorism we

51:23

We seized on that right there as a weakness, oh you guys disagree you're fighting see you guys don't even know what this means

51:30

Yeah Us, you know, so Andrews, I know Andrews method is just to continually tell me

51:37

I'm wrong But no, so so so seriously

51:44

So even holding the position I do the post mill partial predators, right? I would hold to the the

51:51

Ken Gentry's. Sure. Sure Those are positions that I hold to that I know

52:02

Don't necessarily affect my salvation now if I were to deny the bodily return of Christ Then that would affect my salvation you wouldn't be on this show.

52:12

I wouldn't be on this show Someone we're debating, right? So those things don't affect my salvation, but I know even in Andrews position being the dispensational pre -millennial is

52:26

I Know that those things don't necessarily affect his salvation either and so we can we can have these discussions with one another and We can come to different conclusions and we can talk about the hermeneutical methodologies.

52:42

We can look at how we arrive Find the consistencies maybe the inconsistencies, but at the end of the day

52:48

We agree on a lot more than just eschatology, right? We agree on the gospel

52:54

We agree on who Christ is we agree on how you must come to know Christ. We agree on the bodily

53:01

Return of Christ, right? We those are things that we agree on and so because we agree on all those things we can partner together

53:09

And I can lift up Andrew and encourage him he lifts up me and he encourages me I mean

53:14

I even So when he was talking about Daniel, right? I did a thing on Two years ago, maybe on the 70 weeks and I sent it to Andrew to say hey just listen to this, you know

53:28

I never got any feedback though, but we've talked about it several times at length Feedback Hey look for the record did did

53:38

I not let you come on to this show when I was not here. Yeah That's true we did do that and you know, and and that's another thing right so there's a

53:49

Even holding the position I do Andrew still trust me enough to know that I can come on the show.

53:58

I can act accordingly I'm not going to undermine Basically the the the feel of the show or the or the general belief foundation of the show

54:11

So I have no problem with what Andrew believes and it's also that it's also that I I can't hold to and I think this

54:20

Is the thing people get a mistake of in end times is We we can't hold to it.

54:25

So tightly Yes, saying we have Absolute knowledge of the truth.

54:30

We can do that with the first coming Because it's already been fulfilled and documented in Scripture.

54:36

Yes. You are. How much do you yeah we don't have it in the second coming because I came the first time people missed it because They they had their views and Jesus didn't fulfill what they expected

54:48

Now if you're a full preterist, that means everything is fulfilled. So there shouldn't be any disagreement

54:53

We shouldn't be able to find anything That we could disagree on like, you know, we have to see it all having been fulfilled and there's there's comments it

55:03

You know, let me try to get some of these because are That are not raising things. That would be interesting to see it

55:09

By the way, folks, I would encourage you guys share this on social media right now, especially if you know any full preterists

55:16

Challenge them to come on in and refute us. I mean they say their positions unrefutable You know, let me say this real quick Andrew Just a follow -up.

55:26

I'm just doubting you could say anything real quick, but that's true Winded than you so but Sam so one of the one of the things that I think benefits me and in my walk with Christ is my friendship with Dispensational pre -millennial is like Andrew I just like Jim Osmond because I know they're men that If I say something that may be getting a little off into the weeds

55:56

Sure, so they'll confront me and they'll pull me back and they'll talk to me And those are things that I need in my life is men who have been around for a while that can recognize that They understand my position

56:08

But then they also recognize when I might be getting into something that's Contrary to my that's a heresy.

56:15

Yeah, and as a minister in Indiana, I'm surrounded by dispensational But we all we love each other

56:24

We hold each other accountable and responsible all of those kinds of things when I see it floating in the weeds over there

56:31

But you know, I I don't I just it's you're operating within bounds So I asked

56:38

Andrew do you believe in the bodily return and bodily resurrection of the death? It's an absolute affirmer Okay, then we can we can fight about the details or whatever

56:46

But you know, whatever as long as you affirm that you're good the full preterist All that's off the table every bit of it.

56:53

Yeah, so I can't have a conversation with you Because I don't know what you mean by dead resurrection death

57:02

Body, I don't know what those terms mean The now I can talk to Andrew or you and Mention the word body.

57:10

I'm pretty much going to get a straight -up definition over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. It's a no -brainer the full preterist that's the

57:17

Covenantal somatic body of the transitional change between the covenants What Things in my research on Colts that I've always said is

57:31

Colts have and I'm not saying they're a cult. I'm just saying it's something that you see within the cold

57:37

Could be but I haven't I haven't done enough research to make that claim but the issue being is

57:44

One thing I see consistent with the Colts is a lack of integrity with language they play fast and loose with the definition of words and That is and it's

57:55

I think it's necessary When you're dealing with Colts because they got to be able to make their system work well like this

58:02

Lazarus said earlier so 1 ,000 equals According to So, yeah,

58:10

I guess this is Lance I some people knew who he was and called him Lance but his here he's Lazarus It's his what is

58:19

Eastern Orthodox name, you know So, you see, yeah, I mean that's the whole thing it's like all of a sudden 1 ,000 really means 40 right to make it work and and Seven years equals 40 to make it work.

58:32

So what they do is they start with the conclusion and then Work it backwards and that is not how you do any kind of Honest legitimate research you don't start with the conclusion

58:46

Unless you're looking to be biased Because when you start with your conclusion, there is a logical fallacy called confirmation bias

58:54

And when you start with your conclusion you're more likely to fall into that because you're looking to prove your conclusion, which you started with Versus saying looking at the text and going through all the scripture to say, okay, does it teach this?

59:11

There's that's a very different way of doing it So it's difference of isogesis exegesis isogesis reading it meaning into the text.

59:18

So you start with the conclusion you're reading that in Exegesis you're pulling the meaning out You're doing is exegesis.

59:25

We're pulling the meaning out of all these different passages. They're reading into it. How do we know that? well, we just gave you the example mean so 1 ,000 years equals 40 and seven years equals 40 like The math doesn't work

59:41

Right, so Here's a civilly minded podcast

59:49

Set s says this is incredibly informative and I am grateful for the clarification

59:56

On a doctrinal fallacy. I've rarely Rarely heard defended great panel

01:00:02

Andrew. So Yeah, you don't hear so they say that they're spreading and all of this and we were always

01:00:11

Trying to latch on that's why they they don Preston latched on to me. I I was doing my work at Reformed Theological Seminary So I did two years

01:00:20

Hebrew at Reformed Theological Seminary there in Orlando And so and and a lot of the criticism coming out towards or against Full preterism was coming coming from the

01:00:34

Reformed crowd So you had Keith Matheson's book when shall these things be where he gets

01:00:39

Charles Hill and Simon Kistmacher and all of these guys out of Ken Gentry's, you know

01:00:49

Richard Pratt so he was getting these guys out of the Reformed that was criticizing full preterism and I happen to be going to their schools and some of these guys

01:01:01

I knew so Being a full preterist they latched on to me and say hey, here's one of their guys

01:01:08

You know, he's in their institutions Whitfield Theological Seminary, you know, here's this guy

01:01:14

Because they're looking for any Latching on to legitimacy because there is none

01:01:20

There is no biblical scholar of merit. That is a full preterist.

01:01:26

They don't exist now You'll find preterists you'll find that kind of stuff, but you will not find any body of a caliber of a you know,

01:01:35

Tom Ryder, you know, GK bill or Carson or Kessler or any of these guys that eat sleep and breathe this stuff for 50 years

01:01:45

That home in the languages several languages and they're quite at home with them These kinds of guys and they've been you know

01:01:52

Reading and writing on this published peer -reviewed and all this kind of stuff going up for for decades

01:01:58

You won't find anything like that. That's full preterist. That's not gonna happen You will find it in the on millennial world.

01:02:04

You'll find a Bibliotheca Sacra You'll find it in the pre -millennial Dallas Theological Seminary world.

01:02:09

You'll find post -millennial ism in the sky, but full preterism It's it's it's not on it's not on the map the reason why and my colleagues and people that I've Set this out to over the years since I've left they've read it and they just shake their head and this is no way it's

01:02:25

I Would rather so the and I'll say this and you guys discussed it so that you have this

01:02:34

Bible believing such as we are I am Jesus is a failed prophet because in higher criticism or these critical schools

01:02:43

I'll say Bart Ehrman as a good representative of that Jesus did say he was going to come in that generation and all things would take place

01:02:52

Before you finished going through the cities of Israel The some of you standing here will not taste death until the

01:02:58

Son of Man comes in the power of the court so it certainly sounds like however That was written way after the fact

01:03:05

Jesus was a failed prophet He may have originally historically had said such things but then you've got this kind of cover -up redaction ism going on that we've got to start adding this long period of time because the first century and we're coming into the second century now and There's been no return of Jesus and so now you got a delay of the parousia

01:03:25

That's going on and stretching out and out of this the church is born and they have to scramble around Why didn't

01:03:31

Jesus say what he was going to say? Well, why didn't it happen when he said it was going to happen?

01:03:38

That's that's that context that these discussions take place and the full -fledged answer to that is it did happen spiritually in 70

01:03:46

AD That's their answer or Jesus is a failed prophet That's a that's a

01:03:54

That hooked me in I can't have Jesus being a failed prophet But if that's the case

01:04:03

I'm done with the yeah, I'm you know, it's over. I'm done. It's like I've got other things to do that was the argument that were used with me though with that passage in in Matthew saying that Christ prophesied that the generation he was speaking to and And yeah, but if you read just I mean,

01:04:22

I know this is a crazy idea when you read context Just back up a few verses, right? But what's he talking?

01:04:29

He says he says in verse 32 Now learn the parable from the fig tree

01:04:34

When its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near Right, so he's giving you okay, here's the signs of Looking at a fig tree that summer is gonna be near So you too when you see these things?

01:04:54

Recognize that he is near right at the door Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place so He's talking about signs, right?

01:05:08

Yep, so it becomes a thing where it's The reality what we have to do is look and say is something a plausible

01:05:19

Interpretation of a text. Yeah. Yeah, and We can't just reject it because it doesn't go with what we want it to say right, and so we

01:05:32

Because if he's saying if this is if the generation is the one standing in front of Christ The this is there.

01:05:39

I think it seems like their biggest argument They keep making with me at least was see then then it had to have been fulfilled

01:05:46

Well, I'd push back and say some of you standing here will not taste death Until you see the sentiment, you know, that seems to be a pretty contemporary well,

01:05:56

I I actually think that's an easy one because The problem is that you know

01:06:01

What it was the problem is that we put a chapter break right there because if you look right after that what happens

01:06:07

It says eight days later the transfiguration where they where they saw those things plausible to argue that yeah

01:06:14

It is it right if it's right Yeah, so There was there were a couple passages to look at Michael asked this when he said how does this relate to Zachariah?

01:06:30

Yeah, so so let me bring up Zachariah 14 16 And and he is a premillennialist so you know that we another word for that would be biblical

01:06:47

But but Zachariah 14 Translated and worked through that for many many many years and it just boggles a lot of people both

01:06:56

The prophets were I think we're just the prophets were just Caught up in such an overwhelming

01:07:13

Revelation of the spirit and an ecstatic Just overwhelming and trying to use words

01:07:21

To write down The end is just like what just happened to me

01:07:28

The genius of their writings is That we just keep coming back like what?

01:07:34

In other words, it's it's like it just keeps it's like the Word of God It just keeps saying come back and read me again.

01:07:40

You think you got me figured it come back and read me again And it's that word that invites it draws us and I think

01:07:48

Jesus is doing that in John 6 the word He's the word and are you going to leave me too because of what

01:07:54

I've said eat my flesh drink my blood Which is incredibly shocking and a lot of people left him when he said that because that's just like I can't take

01:08:02

But then Peter says where else will we go? Will we go? I don't understand what you're saying, but Your words keep drawing me back in and I want to understand and I keep reading it and I'm devoting myself to your word

01:08:14

And the prophets operate very much like that So I love Zechariah 14 because it just keeps reading it and you keep reading it and you're like man

01:08:22

This is amazing. What does he say and it's frustrating too? But that's the thing of it.

01:08:30

That's the Pieces and parts missing and you're like Well, I think the issue is when we're on the other side of it it's gonna be like oh that was crystal clear

01:08:43

Why did we miss this? Yeah, right, right so so Zechariah 14 16 says this then it will come about that any who are left of All the nations that went out against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king

01:08:59

The Lord of hosts and to celebrate the feast of booths

01:09:05

So I think what Michael's argument there where he's saying is well It seems like if all the prophecy is over then he has to be physically there reigning

01:09:14

You know for all the nations to come to him Thank you for mentioning that because the full preface will use that and Don Preston will actually

01:09:24

If you guys spot this Don Preston and myself We would argue that after the day of the

01:09:31

Lord and after 70 ad so after 70 ad there's this Continuation of evangelism and this that and the other right and we would symbolize the festival of booths as coming to Christ But so Christ is becoming our covering and all that so we would do all that spiritualizing however, if Zechariah is prophesying that after the day of the

01:09:51

Lord on on this Basis of interpretation if he is saying that then isn't that a prophecy that's ongoing and is not yet exhaustively fulfilled

01:10:05

If you have a continuation after 70 ad that's a problem. That's telling me after a 70 ad what is being prophesied?

01:10:13

That's going to happen then not all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 ad correct. You can't have it both ways

01:10:19

Yeah, and they fall on their own spear Here this was one of the reasons why

01:10:24

I left out of the many reasons that was one of them It's like you can't get around that. So now you've got this interesting group with them full preterism called

01:10:32

Israel only and They literally believe that there is no evangelization evangelization after 70 ad

01:10:41

It was all fulfilled. The gospel was only meant to be preached to that generation those nations

01:10:48

Gentiles that got saved under Paul's ministry and then that was fulfilled by seven and then that's it.

01:10:54

Yeah and but the Evangelical full predators like Don Preston Mike Sullivan They realize that they go that route

01:11:04

They've shot themselves and you're never gonna make an appeal to the evangelical world, which is what they want to do

01:11:10

They want at the same table. And so they have to have this Death is destroyed for those that are in Christ, but it's not destroyed for those that are not in Christ So death is no more in the new heavens and new earth now for those that are in Christ But death still and I'm like, but Revelation says death is thrown into the lake of fire.

01:11:30

You can't See where it starts Yeah Falling apart there.

01:11:35

It just it starts falling apart because now you got to make stuff up you got to make up these categories and How do you also how do you also deal with the idea of sin and that's

01:11:51

Here's what they well they are the argument they made with me is that sin ended at the consequence of sin and so therefore there

01:12:00

There is no sin anymore, right? So with the and that's where I was frustrated is like well now you're redefining what sin is

01:12:09

So If so, we understand the idea of the consequence of sin ending once you come to faith in Christ But that doesn't mean you stop sinning.

01:12:21

So are they would they say that there is no more sin? Ask my wife if I continue to Yeah, but I tell my wife that I don't sin and she just Agrees I I think that's what that look means, right?

01:12:44

If there is because if they're viewing the eye that the consequence of sin is gone as There is also no no more sin then wouldn't they be universalist then because then we maxine maxine

01:13:00

Yeah, we can't we can't therefore be sinners then it doesn't matter what we believe we go to heaven anyway, right?

01:13:07

Because in Max King who is the wrote the mammoth 800 page cross in the piracy of Christ That is the

01:13:16

Bible of full preterism as far as I'm concerned. That's the book that got me in that's that is the one So he in that book was arguing along evangelical lines

01:13:29

But later on in his life He wrote a book called irrevocable Romans 9 through 11 where he and he's universalist because death is destroyed for all

01:13:38

Redemption has come to the whole world God has reconciled the entire world to himself.

01:13:45

And so all are saved from Adam Jill whenever unfathomable end of history son burns out the cosmos

01:13:56

Some five billion years from now, whatever who knows it's so crazy Yeah Get along in your lives.

01:14:04

Love one another Do justice love mercy walk humbly if if you have such an undeniable view

01:14:12

Why do you have to play such games with words? You know, it's a great paradigm shift.

01:14:17

It's a total different way of thinking. Yeah Our mind folks

01:14:25

Share this out, especially if you know any full preterists that want to join But you know, we there's no full preterists that have come in yet But I I do think it only fair to even up the sides here and bring in some more biblical views

01:14:37

So here's Aaron Brewster a fellow pre -millennialist. So now we now at least we have a 50 %

01:14:47

Aaron is one of the one of the speakers at striving for eternity and he is the regular guest host here so Sam Sam, right?

01:14:59

Yes. Yeah, I think we've either I think we've been on the same show before. Yeah, we've been Yeah, he's a very familiar to me.

01:15:07

I remember liking you. That's what I don't know if it was true or not but Aaron were you at the the pre -conference to the white

01:15:15

Calvinist conference Did you make it to pre conference? Yeah, I think if you were there that the pre -conference

01:15:24

Sam and Sam and yeah Your hair was longer.

01:15:30

Yeah, and I do remember. Yes. Yeah. Yep And and the other you know, we have we have a question here from from up the apologetic dog and and I think don't you think we should ignore his questions and Because now that it's after his two -year -olds bedtime so so so he sends

01:15:50

Sam and I a message saying, you know, he can't come in until 9 central time because He's got to put his his or eight o 'clock central time because he got put his two -year -old to bed because his wife is sick

01:16:01

And and I I basically said in there that well, that's fine Come in whenever you could because Sam and I will just make fun of Jeremiah until he comes in.

01:16:09

So I'll be in a 955. No Been in twice because he's in under his

01:16:18

YouTube and he's in under his Facebook. Yeah So he's so he's he's he's

01:16:24

Watching on both. There you go, but I do think Jeremiah should come in here

01:16:30

But he does ask this question for you Sam. He's he says ask Sam about Covenant creation full preterists.

01:16:38

And so this is a term. I'm unfamiliar with so What are they? Who are they?

01:16:44

What are they are these people? Well It's this book here beyond creation science and New Covenant creation from Genesis to Revelation by Timothy Martin and Jeffrey Bond and this book is endorsed by in the endorsements

01:17:11

Don K Preston Walt Hibbard Terry Hall Virgil Badoeva some of these guys go back a few years ago

01:17:19

They're no longer here Jim Kessler Full preterist Richard Duncan full preterist

01:17:25

Norman boss is a full preterist Timothy King Who Max King's son who published?

01:17:32

my work Jeremy Lyle Michael Loomis who has since gone completely

01:17:37

AWOL But anyway, that's that's this book here So the book here

01:17:45

Which I was I'm in this book they quote me quite a bit because this was written back in 2005

01:17:52

And I was still full preterist. We were a lot of conferences a lot of stuff going on So I know

01:17:57

Tim I know Jeff and we talked extensively and I told him You know, I'm not going to go that route.

01:18:03

But the basic thing is this second Peter chapter 3 Is 70

01:18:08

AD right? So all that decreation language heaven and earth passing and all that kind of stuff and since that 70

01:18:16

AD, which is obviously apocalyptic and Symbolic language of the temple and the land in 70

01:18:23

AD But yet the language is a cosmogenic Language that's found in Genesis Right, then the language of Genesis is also apocalyptic metaphorical symbolic language of The covenant creation of Israel and so Israel is heaven and the land and so the destruction of heaven and the land is the destruction of Israel in 70

01:18:51

AD and so Adam is not the first human being Adam is the first covenant man that was plucked out of humanity.

01:18:59

God makes a covenant he exiles him which is just a recapitulation of the story of the exodus of Israel Egypt in the land plucked out brought into the front and all that kind of stuff and everything and so forth and so on so Hmm, does it you get to 70

01:19:15

AD? You can see that this is very elaborate Yeah, and it is it's this this is a quite quite elaborate

01:19:27

To get to 70 AD So you start with 70 AD is the truth and then you go back and you reread the entire

01:19:35

Bible now in that light and Reinterpret the entire Bible in the light of 70 AD fulfillment

01:19:41

That's full preterism and they applied it to Genesis 1 through 3 so Is that going to have any difference in the way that you read

01:19:51

Genesis? well We're going to be two ships passing in the night

01:19:58

We we don't have anything in common at this point now, we're just sailing on two different ships and yet We're it we're all evangelical

01:20:08

Christians And see that's when this stuff started coming around. That's when my break began to happen.

01:20:14

I thought this is way This is getting This is getting

01:20:20

I mean, we don't know what body is. We don't know what death is We don't know what sanctification means. We don't know what resurrection means and now we don't even know what creation means

01:20:28

We don't know what it means well, it's terminology, so that's what happens

01:20:36

So now the whole game has changed the whole ball games changed with with this book here and one of your

01:20:42

I guess Jeremiah's Baptist minister friends Zach Davis Who was a dear friend with Jeremiah is now running a full preterist

01:20:53

Church and he's the new darling and he's now adopted this he's bought hook line and sinker

01:21:01

Wow about the whole bought the whole farm, but Why not you know if everything if the church has been wrong for 1900 years on the return of the

01:21:14

Lord, maybe they're wrong about the Trinity and the Bible and creation I Admit that I don't

01:21:23

I can't come into this conversation from a scholarly perspective in regard to any form of preterism

01:21:30

I understand Basically what it is, but I man Sam you you bring such a wealth of knowledge to this and so I can't bring that But I think

01:21:38

I can bring what I what I try to bring every time I have an opportunity on the show Is kind of a practical real -world?

01:21:46

Understanding of why people like to like to believe things like this

01:21:53

And I see a lot there's a there's a reoccurrence recently and this idea of mysticism now

01:21:58

I'm not saying that mysticism and preterism are the same thing. I'm saying that they have similar roots Mysticism in the church is huge.

01:22:04

You know, God told me this and I'm not even talking about talking about like, you know Independent Baptist churches.

01:22:10

I'm talking about reformed churches. This language is there They're not saying that they received visions or anything like that but it's this language of God told me

01:22:19

I needed to do this and God gave me peace and so on and so forth and there's a lot of overlap with that and this desire to be able to Completely wrap our hands around the scriptures and claim that we understand it all but that understanding requires

01:22:36

So much spiritualization so much symbolism so much Interpreting interpreting things that the scriptures have written as that was historical fact

01:22:45

This is a literal fulfillment, whatever the case might be and seeing it as something it's not and I would just I just warn everybody

01:22:51

I warn myself As an independent fundamental Baptist a dispensational

01:22:56

I warn everyone here I warn everyone in the chat That is it's very easy for us because we are so limited and so impotent to want to get our hands

01:23:06

Around certain portions of scripture the entirety of scripture and really be like I Understand this.

01:23:13

Oh, yes. I I get how this over here and that over there and there's that tendency to take the scriptures and to play loose and fast with it and to twist it and want to see things that aren't there and The next thing we know we're slipping into mysticism.

01:23:28

We're slippering into Preterism we're sleeping believing that all of them have been we're slipping into those guys I was debating not debating.

01:23:34

Well, it was a comment debating with last week Who is also saying that you know? No, the sin isn't the thing anymore because look at all these verses that say that you know

01:23:43

Christians don't sin and so on and so forth. Yeah It's just something that we slip into and and here's my encouragement for everybody if you are not comfortable with the paradoxical tensions of the scripture

01:23:54

Then you're not comfortable with God Because God is beyond our ability to understand

01:24:00

God if we could understand him He wouldn't be God we would be God so if if you are if you just find yourself uncomfortable so uncomfortable with a passage that you have to run to the internet and The first thing that just seems like I will kind of make sense.

01:24:15

You're like, okay, that's must be what it is You're gonna be in a dangerous dangerous place. We need to appreciate the fact that God is communicative

01:24:22

He does want us to understand him, but there's a limit to that understanding There really is and there will be things

01:24:28

There will be things in the scripture that in eternity we will be learning about the Bible and we'll be going wow

01:24:33

I never would have I would never would have understood that we see Christ We see other portions of where portions of the

01:24:41

Old Testament are taken and applied to things in the two New Testament That if it hadn't been written in the

01:24:47

New Testament There's not a theological scholar on the planet who would have ever known there was a connection between those two events

01:24:53

We never would have known God had to tell us that so be okay with that tension be okay with that Level of discomfort and pursue it pursue knowing

01:25:01

God pursue knowing his word. That would be my encouragement to us all Yeah You got my post -millennial brothers my pre -millennial brothers my dispensation

01:25:13

You know, you're bringing something to the table an angle that I might be missing over here, you know It's a little angle little nugget.

01:25:19

I could pick up off of Off of that and then utilize it. Okay. Yeah, let me shift that around here a little bit

01:25:26

But We're within that bound of those we were talking earlier of the fund of these fundamental

01:25:32

Where we all agree we you know, these are these are our limits. We're not going to go beyond these and But it is interesting and it's an interesting thing about cults

01:25:42

That's that they go outside the bounds and they want you to have an open mind and all that But they have a stranglehold on the absolute truth that they have and they've got it all figured out

01:25:52

So does that make sense? Yes, they go out all the time and they've got it all figured out

01:25:58

And so now you're back in you're like in this really tight system. You can't get out of it You know, they're allowed to take dogmatic statements

01:26:06

Other people have made and completely apply them and reinterpret them in different ways But they don't allow anyone to take their dogmatic statements and do the opposite which the vowel has a fun word for it's called

01:26:17

Hypocrisy Yeah, right Yeah, I mean the thing the thing is is that and I say this all the time we're dealing with cults and People have to recognize that every system has a solution to their problems

01:26:34

They will work a way to make it though. They'll come up with some life -saving device to save the system

01:26:42

And it could be the most bizarre thing in the example. I I give I And and Sam this will be new to you

01:26:48

But some in the audience prize heard this, you know, I haven't told this story for several years probably by now But so I had a guy contact the ministry

01:26:55

Jewish guy He knows that I'm from a Jewish background wants to convert me back to Judaism And so he asked whether I would be willing to meet him and and have some dinner.

01:27:05

Okay So he makes the argument that only the rabbis can answer the difficult questions of the

01:27:12

Bible Okay, what questions So here was the thing.

01:27:18

He said well David was a man after God's own heart So David could not have sinned.

01:27:25

No, okay again, we all see a problem there, but He says so so when so David couldn't have killed

01:27:33

Uriah And couldn't have had an adulterous affair with Peshima And so what is it so so this is a dilemma that the the rabbis themselves create so then they are the only ones with the solution and so the solution was that what happened was

01:27:50

Uriah was going off to war and They would have two forms of divorce a permanent divorce and a temporary divorce

01:27:56

And so this temporary divorce was in case they didn't come home so that the wife wasn't destitute she could remarry someone if he doesn't you know, and just assume he's dead and so Uriah gave

01:28:08

Peshima a permanent divorce And therefore when

01:28:13

Uriah comes back and is invited back The reason David asked for him to come back Was because David knew he wouldn't go back to his home to sleep with his ex -wife because they're not married anymore

01:28:24

And that's why he stayed with the dogs and didn't go to his home And so which makes no sense that you know, it's like, okay

01:28:32

And that's why he helped him get a little drunk and kept them over the next night, right? So so you say well, then why did he have

01:28:39

Uriah killed if Uriah is such a righteous man? Oh Because Uriah called

01:28:44

David Lord and that's blasphemy Yeah, wait, but the word Lord it was not the word for Yahweh.

01:28:52

It was the word he would use for a king Right, and so they they will no matter what answer

01:28:58

I came up with They find a way to save the system and that's what I find here is they all this

01:29:05

Twisting of words and language and we'll take this visit take this literal But now the same passage will take figure it to whatever we have to to save the system.

01:29:16

It sounds very comedic Great elaborations just on a very simple point.

01:29:25

Yeah If you want to be the only person with the solution you have to be the person who created the problem

01:29:33

And that's exactly Andrew what you're describing They create this problem that only they can solve but it's only the only reason that the problem exists and needing solution

01:29:43

Is the fact that they created it in the first place because otherwise that passage is very easy to understand. Yeah Well, and you know if you read

01:29:52

Dr. Jason Lal has a book He The ultimate proof of creation

01:29:59

Where he talks about life -saving devices and gives examples of them and shows how people people do that Let me get to some of the other comments that drew start here

01:30:10

This would this will be a quick one Kathy was asking you the question is Gary DeMar a full preterist?

01:30:18

So he's changed his views. So she's asking whether he is now a full preterist So we got together with a few of us leaders in the reformed community, whatever

01:30:31

Because we were noticing a drift of Gary DeMar's You know He was drifting over and he spoke at our conferences when

01:30:39

I was a full preterist and spoke at these conferences So Gary would show up and be invited and he would accept

01:30:45

Which I that I don't guilt by Association. I don't have any issues I'll speak at an atheist conference if I'm invited, you know,

01:30:53

I Invited to speak.

01:30:58

I don't know how but I was invited to speak at a flat -earth Convention and playing my fair and well,

01:31:07

I I've always said hey They asked me what my topic would be and I said

01:31:12

I would love to speak on why the earth must be a sphere And they never heard back from them

01:31:19

I don't know why The head explodes. I don't know where they got my name to invite me to such a thing, but it was like, okay

01:31:27

Hey, if you're gonna have me speak, I'll be happy to So yeah, so Gary Was asked years ago, would you ever

01:31:37

Condemn full preterism as heresy and absolutely not. No, so he's very clear on that You know,

01:31:44

I think that they're you know wrong on some few issues and these issues need to be studied out and I've known

01:31:50

Gary You know This way kind of talks, you know, you need to study this out. We need to steal, you know, and I'm no expert

01:31:56

You know, yeah, you've been writing books since the 1990s for whatever You figure after a couple of decades you you know, they're called doctors, you know people, you know study stuff for 20 years

01:32:09

I'll be an expert. They're kind of you know, so but anyway, you know, I'm still studying it still looking at it

01:32:15

So that's his evasive Kind of way not bothered that was starting to bother, you know, god forbid that it bothers us

01:32:22

I guess we're not supposed to be bent out of shape or whatever But so we we confronted because we were hearing on his podcasts in different interviews

01:32:31

We were hearing things that when you die you get your body in heaven Red flag red flag right there when you die you get your body in heaven

01:32:41

That's that's the view within full preterism that alleviates the resurrection of the dead

01:32:48

When we die, we get our body in heaven and heaven is the new heavens and newer kind of thing So that's that's the route they go on And you know, we really need to look at what

01:32:57

Paul's saying about what body means It could be a corporate body and so clearly he's exploring

01:33:04

But yet he's a teacher and not only that I've been reading Gary DeVore stuff since the late 1980s

01:33:10

I've got some of his original stuff That goes back to 89 and 90 91.

01:33:15

So he has been very influential in the reformed Premillennial or form post -millennial reformed

01:33:22

Baptist reformed Baptist post -millennial. He's been very influential in that world And his writings and all of that kind of stuff

01:33:30

So and theocracy and reconstruction ism and all that so For him to come down and say that that as full preterist that opens that door up you see

01:33:42

You remember at the beginning of the thing? I was talking about legitimacy see that just cracks that door open because Gary DeVore is no slouch

01:33:49

So that cracks that door open and say see Gary accepts us and that lets us in And I'm wanting to shut the door just no,

01:33:57

I'm not you can't come in here That's that's really the issue. So then we asked him.

01:34:03

Do you believe in the end of history? Do you believe in the resurrection bodily resurrection of that and the bodily return of the Lord and he did not answer

01:34:09

He said these things are not as Defined as what you think that they are in the scriptures and they need further study and that's where he's at now

01:34:17

Now is he a full preterist? No, he's still operating under a post -millennial Global evangelism kind of a thing and eventually

01:34:28

You know help me help me out here, you know this Christianization of Civilization emerging and all of that and it's gonna take however long that's gonna take so he still has that going on Which is the fulfillment of prophecy as post -millennialists understand these things, which is that's

01:34:47

I have empathy with that and understand it So that wouldn't make him a full preterist, however however

01:34:57

If everything is old is fulfilled in 70 AD and now being applied posts

01:35:02

He's trying to answer the post 70 AD Problem and that's where he gets stuck.

01:35:08

He's he's stuck You're damned if you do you're damned if you don't he can't he doesn't know how to He has no end of history other maybe one

01:35:20

Yeah, it's that really indifferent evasive kind of thing where Gary's at which

01:35:25

I would call full preterism All right. So yes, I would say Gary is a full preterist

01:35:31

Okay, more or less more or less That makes sense

01:35:38

Does he call himself a full preterist right now no, no

01:35:44

Yeah I'm not this I'm not that I'm not this I don't believe in that.

01:35:50

I don't believe in that. I Okay, he said but you said to get a new body and have well, you know, I'm looking at the issue

01:35:57

Yeah, well, that's always good Teaching well for folks who are regular here if they remember back when godless grandma came in that was that was her tactic

01:36:09

Everything everything She would she would come up with an argument and every time you answered it.

01:36:15

She well, I I don't really know about that I I don't I'm not I got it. I haven't studied that I you know, yeah

01:36:22

You know and the classic the classic in there was the part that I don't know maybe

01:36:27

I should play it but the classic was when she she brought up the issue of that Christians like the danger of Christianity was that we were not taking vaccines and And people were dying because of kovat

01:36:40

She brought it up and then like six minutes later i'm saying to her You know i'm like I gave her six minutes of of me and drew giving her answers to the kovat vaccine

01:36:50

To which she gets she gets frustrated says, you know, i'm not prepared to talk about that Uh, that wasn't supposed to be a topic, you know, you bring these things up and you throw it at me and i'm like, uh

01:37:01

You brought it up kelly And she's like I did not well, okay, maybe

01:37:06

I did I'd like to meet godless grandma I like the name though.

01:37:12

That's a good She was an interesting yeah, that was but so he puts more of the comments here we got a special So special thanks to dr frost for sharing his knowledge and expertise on the subject

01:37:26

It's been an honor working with him and learning from him. God bless I'm gonna make my head really big.

01:37:33

Well, then we got this well So i'm just gonna read this as it is and I mean i'll just you know

01:37:41

Haps addison says what full pretty view on community and baptism

01:37:48

Now I did I did say if there was ever any evidence I could buy of Bigfoot there it is and even his english would fit the way if bigfoot could speak

01:37:57

I'm, really sad to say I think I think I can interpret this and I don't know if I should be

01:38:03

Here yeah, yeah, I think he's saying what is full preterism? What is full preterism's view on communion and baptism?

01:38:12

That's my guess I'm, sorry On communion and baptism that makes way more sense now.

01:38:21

I didn't know what community meant Yeah As a biblical counselor, I I have to I have to interpret a lot of stuff that I get verbally and written

01:38:30

And I think that's my best guess We will have to see if hap says that's right. But okay, let's go with that What would be full preterism's view on communion and baptism?

01:38:40

33 ascension to 70 ad no longer applicable Simple as that So so you do show forth the lord's death until he can well he came yeah, well you don't need to do that anymore same with baptism baptism

01:38:57

Um, like mike sullivan would argue that baptisms note. That was a jewish thing from the transition generation from the jewish old covenant to the in christ new covenant transitional generation from ascension of christ to 70 ad

01:39:11

Baptism was a symbolic Gestures of getting out of that old covenant coming into the new covenant

01:39:17

But now that we're fully in the new covenant new heavens and new earth, you know, you know, take it or leave it It's not okay

01:39:24

Kind of along the same lines then maybe kathy is asking the question What does verse for what is?

01:39:30

first corinthians 11 26 Ever you eat of this bread and drink of this cup you proclaim the lord's death until he comes so I guess it'd be a similar thing there

01:39:42

Yeah, the church has been wrong on that too According to them. Yeah, so darren steed says excellent topic

01:39:50

Wish I had gotten here sooner Well, that's your own fault darren, you know, we always start eight o 'clock eastern time

01:39:56

You should just be here. You should be here at 7 30. In fact, um, actually i'm going to tell you this

01:40:01

I I got a private message sent to me sam. I'm going to just read this as he Someone says to me

01:40:09

What sovereign timing for this conversation I've just got a friend

01:40:15

All right. Sorry. I got a friend who just came over And told me on monday that he's gone full preterist

01:40:23

And he and I are supposed to have a talk soon Wow So get a hold of me

01:40:31

Yeah, so, um Email me Can I get a lot of emails probably three or four a week

01:40:39

Of that very kind of thing i've been yeah, I get a lot of emails churches church pastors elders

01:40:45

Um, we've had to operate some excommunications because the people were just being very very very divisive

01:40:51

They wouldn't go away and i'm like that's just disruptive Look, if i'm going to a dispensationalist church, i'm not going to go in there proclaiming.

01:40:59

I'm going to respect the you know It's just respect. It's just yeah

01:41:04

Common courtesy don't do that. So that just tells me something about you right there when you start doing that that kind of stuff

01:41:11

It's like, you know Yeah Know where you're at and read a room

01:41:17

And so a lot of these guys are very disruptive Um, and you said, you know, you did a lot of counseling and stuff in psychology.

01:41:23

What you know, what's the reasoning behind that? What? Because you think you've got the truth and everybody needs to hear it yeah, well the

01:41:32

We all believe what we believe and we believe it passionately and as christians We try to take everything that we believe back to biblical command, you know back to biblical truth and so it's the same thing that happened to the

01:41:44

Fundamentalists in the 80s 90s and early 2000s and I think to a large degree some of them still today Um, there's you know, not understanding the degrees of separation not understanding that there are certain things

01:41:54

You absolutely must separate from somebody over and certain things that it's okay that they believe differently than you It's okay that they dress differently than you

01:42:00

But it's it's really what it is is pride and arrogance. It's arrogance that I am right I I cannot be wrong on this subject.

01:42:08

You have to be wrong on this subject And if that's the case if there's no wiggle room for you to potentially be right

01:42:13

Or for there to be liberty in this then I have to convince you that you're wrong and i'm going to take every opportunity

01:42:19

I can to do that Yeah So another thing the other thing we got claude claude ramsey says

01:42:27

Y 'all should check out one of the more recent Uh debates with dr.

01:42:32

Frost did we did a review on it? So if you the review I asked him where to find that review

01:42:38

And if you're on youtube Uh, it's the hero podcast The best

01:42:46

I mean there's ward finley Uh who says I don't send anymore. He's perfect And we had fun with that one

01:42:54

William bell who's been around for a long 30 years He's with don preston william bell's like one of the pioneers

01:43:01

I think Anyway, it's all on youtube. Yep. I don't I don't want to I don't want to misrepresent you sam

01:43:08

Somebody was saying in the in the chat that they thought that you were saying that we don't need to take the lord's supper anymore I said,

01:43:13

I believe that you were speaking from the perspective of the preterist Yes, yes, okay, okay

01:43:20

Believer in eucharist and yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we need the lord's table. Okay and baptism

01:43:28

Yeah, absolutely. So claude the the the review that claude did of your debate that he's referring to is

01:43:36

Uh, did you find that one in theology podcast? And it is here here.

01:43:42

I stand theology podcast Frost donny budinsky's stuff who I really appreciate donny now i'm gonna say

01:43:50

I don't Sam, I don't know what what's going to happen with this, but he he he claude sent this to me and asked if For me to show this

01:44:00

Uh on screen if I could find it, let's see. Oh, I I think I have to Um let's see, it doesn't let me do just the

01:44:10

I'd end up erasing the entire program if I was doing yeah, well the thing is he sent it to me as a uh, uh as a picture so I gotta

01:44:20

I gotta pull it up as a picture because there's just a problem when you share that you can't share stuff in uh

01:44:28

In with streamyard, it just doesn't let me share as a uh, um

01:44:34

So here, uh, it doesn't let me share from it from the texts. So here he wants this he puts he

01:44:40

Maybe you can explain this. What in the world is this? Oh my gosh, it says but whatever

01:44:48

Dr. Sam frost He sent me a shirt That was the shirt

01:44:55

I get this package in the mail and i'm like what is this claude rams? and That's the shirt and I wear that because in the debate

01:45:04

I there's a part where I said, yeah, but whatever And that's him and he thought I gotta make a shirt and he sent me a shirt

01:45:12

That's my picture So we get back to we get back to again you have friends that like to give you gifts.

01:45:18

Um, Yeah, I get these gifts and stuff people send me things But that was one of them and I loved the shirt and people don't understand it at all and they

01:45:29

Think I have a big inflated ego and I I probably I I don't you know I don't know.

01:45:36

Yeah, so let me What do you say about ego? What what do you say? So if you 20 years past or you've got experience 20 20 years 25 years 30

01:45:45

So you've been around the block and you're still in You're still in the field. You're still doing the work and all this other stuff um

01:45:54

How do you? And I deal I I Deal with this a lot because I work also cognitive behavioral therapy.

01:46:02

I teach that in the the Henry county correctional facility here's we You know this idea of humbling yourself and walking humbly, but yet at the same time

01:46:10

Um, have you accomplished anything and are you supposed to talk about them? Well, well you're so full of yourself

01:46:17

It's a you can be humble and there's a big difference between confidence and pride and and You know people want to attribute confidence

01:46:31

If if i'm a if i'm an expert in a field And I know how to do that and i'm confident

01:46:38

It doesn't mean that i'm prideful, but now I could be prideful about it. We're arrogant. There's a difference correct correct

01:46:46

Yeah, the other the other side of that is and I know you know, you want to transition andrew But the other side of this this is a huge thing that people misunderstand

01:46:54

That to speak honestly about oneself is not prideful um, i've talked to individuals, um,

01:47:02

I won't go into the whole story, but basically they would almost rather deceive when asked about what they

01:47:07

Do they would rather so downplay what they do almost to make it seem meaningless So that they don't come across sounding prideful when all they're doing is just giving the honest answer about what it is

01:47:19

They do in their life, you know And I think that the church a lot of a lot of churches in particular have gotten this idea of humility

01:47:25

That you can't ever ever say anything nice about yourself You can't ever even if it's just an accurate statement lest you be prideful or come across as prideful and that's that's not biblical

01:47:35

Yeah, so let me just put here's your next book That's a book

01:47:40

I hear this All the time so you get these degrees and and I don't care, you know The degrees are because I like reading and someone said, you know, you like reading so much

01:47:48

You might as well get some degrees while you're at it. Okay um so but it's not a

01:47:55

But if I bring them up, especially in some circles of the church, it's like that's just man -made degrees.

01:48:00

You just that ain't And I don't know how to respond. It's like man. I'm not trying to be

01:48:07

Prideful i'm I thank god that I did go through seminar. I very thankful for the people that I met and the professors and the

01:48:16

The whole experience it was a real mind stretching. I got stretched and grew and and You go into seminary thinking you have all the answers you come out with going all

01:48:27

I got is questions, right so But it's good, you know, you mentioned for Aaron.

01:48:32

That's his next book because obviously Aaron, uh, You know sam's been checking you out because he he knows that you finally wrote your first book

01:48:40

Which is I got in my hand right here. Oh, let me write that down Quit how to stop family strife for good by a .m.

01:48:49

Brewster. That's a bold claim Yeah, and what's really hilarious about it? Is that with a title like that?

01:48:55

It's 100 pages long So not only is it going to stop family strife for good, but it's going to do it succinctly.

01:49:01

Yeah, it's going to do quickly All right, so let's let us

01:49:07

I know we don't have a lot of time but let's let us bring someone back from the dead Lazarus is here

01:49:13

What? Hi What's up I'm back from the dead and i'm here to say full priorism is nonsense

01:49:27

I've been there Destroyed the entire facebook full preterist room.

01:49:37

He almost single -handedly destroyed the So i've got my ways

01:49:45

Your name is lance, right if I if I remember correctly, yeah, you can call me whatever

01:49:52

Okay, whatever You want to go by so whatever um you you work with Yeah That's what

01:50:01

I do on the street when i'm on the street doing evangelist I get someone's name so I could be respectful to them and and they'll give me something like Whatever or you know, you don't need to know

01:50:12

I go. That's a funny name But if that's what your mom called you, okay, so you don't need to question for you and I keep doing that I was trying to make that funny meme that he just got earlier where I said, okay, whatever but yeah

01:50:29

Didn't work too well, but yeah, y 'all can call me lance. It's fine So you were

01:50:37

Yes For what 2015 20 years now 20 years

01:50:46

So here's the full predators. Yeah, that's right. That's crazy I've known sam for a long time now.

01:50:54

It's kind of wow You didn't think a snowman can move that long

01:51:01

Yeah, it was that long. Yeah And uh, he went to a few conferences. So there used to be

01:51:08

A lot of conferences from 2003 to 2008. There's probably like four or five a year and then that died down um

01:51:18

Now you're getting I think don preston's predatorist pilgrim weekend. You have david curtis

01:51:24

The brand bible, uh, and then Zach davis here. Here's this guy coming in again

01:51:31

Uh is starting to have so there's they're starting to kind of sort of ramp up again Uh, at least they're trying to get him to ramp up but ever since zoom and coven conferences are really really hard to Real hard to put together.

01:51:45

They're hard to Yeah, they are. So lance we Got we got about eight minutes left in the show any any comments that you wanted to to add or help out with to discuss

01:51:56

I just wanted to say like, um, you know, the the implications of full predators and really

01:52:02

Kick their butts all the time. So like, you know, william bell's trying to deny it now, but he's a full predatorist and he's uh,

01:52:09

He goes into this whole deal now where his his followers are like, oh polygamy is great polygyny

01:52:15

We should we can all do that and i'm like, okay, so since everything's fulfilled sin was ended in 70 ad

01:52:21

Can y 'all marry whoever you want do whatever you want and they're like? Yeah, of course, you know and and well then you get william bell and he's like no no, that's not right but then

01:52:31

Like why are your followers saying that then bud? Like that's crazy and same thing happens with don preston

01:52:38

Like, you know, you have this all the time where like there's there's like this disconnect from the leader from the actual follower and then like but but it's a it's all a cult tactic because Because you know me and sam frost when we were full predators, they were saying the same stuff to us all the time

01:52:57

But now when they you know get exposed for it now, it's like oh well I i'm i'm just a good old boy and uh, i'm in the good old boy club and you you gotta listen to us

01:53:07

You know, uh polygamy is not acceptable and but then they'll tell you it's okay later, you know um frost has had similar experiences on this so You get back to what

01:53:20

I think they've gotten worse about earlier we were talking about this double speak That goes on um, yeah, yeah, but then these real stranglehold kind of views that That's what

01:53:31

I love, you know, we've got so many variations of views eschatology, but there's this bound But then yeah, you get into this by debate with ward finley where he couldn't

01:53:43

I you know, do you still sin? No Now do I still make mistakes? Yes. Oh, wow.

01:53:49

Really? He went that way. Wow, okay No, so so I was gonna say this earlier, but I've had that two dollar conversation.

01:53:57

Yeah You know, I was gonna say earlier we we have Sam urinal mill

01:54:05

Drew your post mill. I'm pre -mill. All we needed was dr James white because then we could have had one person who was all three in one

01:54:13

That's right to all three views at one point or another But but yeah,

01:54:20

I think it was raised Four square gospel dispensational pre -millennium. I mean that was 1970s

01:54:27

So i'm 57 so I was in the early 70s on throughout so I was raised that way and then post -millennial

01:54:32

I was that way for many many years in bible college and afterwards um Full preterist and then swang back and now i'm on millennium.

01:54:40

Yeah, so let's let me Yeah, I have great that's why I I i'm not that's not a separable issue.

01:54:49

Yeah So, let me put i'm gonna do this one comment and then uh You know

01:54:55

Dr. Frost i'm gonna have you let folks know how to get ahold of you But wesley roberts says this I love seeing men

01:55:01

I love seeing guys who met at the conference last year in each other's shows true fellowship and community in the body of christ

01:55:08

I met andrew Aaron and sam at the conference and talked to each of you guys.

01:55:14

It was a great time and andrew. Thanks for the books So he's speaking of the the why calvinism conference that we had down.

01:55:21

That's where we had all met And it was a great time of fellowship So, so, uh, let me just wrap this up by you know asking

01:55:29

I think I was the only presbyterian there There might have been two of us. I don't know no, there were definitely two because there's definitely two because uh,

01:55:37

Greg moore who is the emcee of the event is a presbyterian and uh I just saw that yeah for those those who are you know, not watching live, you know, you

01:55:50

Aaron's aaron just had somebody whether whether wife or daughter I couldn't quite see I assumed that but I was

01:55:57

I couldn't really see too. Well, this was kind of quick. I was reading comment and It's time to get off.

01:56:03

Yes Yeah, that was the That was i'm going to bed daddy. I'm going to bed now so sam let let folks know how they could get ahold of you if there's people that uh, that do end up having questions do want to um, maybe like like this friend of mine chris who is

01:56:22

You know going. Hey, I i'm going to be having these conversations. I'll share with him You know privately your your email if it's okay with since you said that that's good.

01:56:31

But but how can I email? Samuel m as in mother samuel m frost at yahoo .com

01:56:39

and then any more today because after you know Eight years of doing this debates and so just google my name

01:56:47

Samuel frost preterism and just everything will show up. But my blog Uh is vigil v -i -g -i -l dot blog vigil dot blog and that's where all my stuff is really at and then i'm on facebook

01:57:01

Uh with lant, uh lazarus lance um You know demolition crew there so and a lot of Without facebook full preterism would lose a massive uh

01:57:15

Tentacle if there was no facebook Uh, because that's it And I see that they're starting to go on andrew as you said, you know, check out this twitter um, so I I don't go on twitter a lot.

01:57:28

I should more but I don't But what you said about facebook As well because they don't know how to use it

01:57:34

They know how to they've been on there. They've got a presence I mean the the what

01:57:40

I end up seeing is they just as I said in the beginning, right? One jumps in and must share it with the others because they they

01:57:48

In in a in a group And then they talk to each other like you don't need to be there

01:57:54

They're going to be patting each other on the back for things They say as if they really nailed somebody by not by ignoring what they actually said

01:58:02

And making up a you know, you really said this. No, no, I didn't It was almost like uh, who was it?

01:58:09

That's being at the confirmation I I can't remember if it was rfk jr. Or one of them where Uh, they were asked a question.

01:58:18

I think it was rfk jr. And and it was like you know Do you do you deny vaccines and he says no,

01:58:27

I don't. Yes, you do It's that kind of yes, yeah people play that game.

01:58:34

Yes, and no questions mom keston does that yes and no question a lot Um, hey listen in the in the flesh if a group of guys is going to try to convince me that I can't sin

01:58:45

That I can make all of these choices and do all these things and I don't have future judgment and whatever else

01:58:51

I mean man, oh man in the flesh. I want that like Yeah, of course, you know, so Yeah, the more opportunity they have to get in front of the biggest group of people who are looking for reasons to excuse their lifestyle

01:59:05

Yeah, they're always going to have an audience. Yeah I'm gonna so when i'm done with the show here i'm gonna go hit my crack pipe

01:59:16

You know, you hear that kathy did you hear that kathy he denies communion and he's gonna go his Because I don't send anymore.

01:59:23

It's great Well, that's a great a great way to end the show

01:59:31

On that kind so lazarus has he's repeatedly so can I go smoke crack down or what?

01:59:38

No, that's not why not? I've asked them so much times

01:59:44

Why can't I why can't I do this? They're like, oh, that's terrible. Why I'm like why why is it terrible?

01:59:49

Well, you know, we Lance we had a guy that came in here an indian guy who believed he was a sinless pray.

01:59:58

He never sinned He was basically teaching gnosticism And so I went with the classic gnostical argument that you know, can you sleep with a prostitute?

02:00:09

Would that be a sin? Here here's the clip from that episode Are you saying that someone a believer can go sleep with a prostitute?

02:00:18

And it wouldn't be right or wrong because he's not under the law anymore So if he if he sleeps with a prostitute, but has faith in doing it

02:00:27

Then it's okay Yeah, it's okay Okay I want to make sure that I heard you correctly

02:00:38

It would be as long as you have faith He can do that. He can

02:00:43

Wow, okay. Um, you're saying that as long as we have faith

02:00:52

Whatever we do in faith is not sin Yes, yeah, so so there you go,

02:00:59

I think I was wild See, this is what I want to ask john preston and mike. But they're too scared to debate me and frost.

02:01:07

So Yeah, well So andrew what you should have asked him was is it okay for me to kill you?

02:01:14

See what he says about that. Would that be okay? Obviously in the full predator's paradigm. Yeah Well, it's not a sin, but that that would reveal the hypocrisy

02:01:24

It was Aaron you're missing the point though as long as we're over You know technology like this.

02:01:35

They're gonna say it's fine. It's when we're in person holding a gun that there might disagree You know

02:01:44

Have you been seeing greg's posts greg just came on have you been saying? So greg moore from dead man walking podcast goes

02:01:51

Okay, what did I miss prostitutes and crack pipes He says geez

02:02:01

I I gotta go back and listen to the rest of the show. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's right buckle up Yeah, buckle up.

02:02:09

But hey, this was a great show sam. It's always great having you on It's it is always so informative

02:02:14

I mean, I thought I really understood full preterism the last time you were on and there's like so much more that you got into i'm, like Okay, that's just different.

02:02:24

So Uh anytime you want to come on if you ever if you ever have someone that wants to debate you

02:02:29

Um, we could do it here. I know you know same with you lance I know there was a bunch of people on twitter.

02:02:34

They were willing to debate until We mentioned sam's name and then they all ran

02:02:40

And uh being one of them. He just won. Yeah Um, let's see what happens So for the record is me and I don't want to debate him

02:02:49

Yeah, for the record you see that scrolling at the bottom we have during the entire show an invitation for anyone to join

02:02:58

Apologetics live .com you just go there you click on the duck icon the stream yard And you can join the discussion

02:03:06

We we've been asking for the full preterist to come we posted this is going to be there Uh, none of them showed up Huh and I think what we see is that they do very good when they're in the echo chamber

02:03:19

Not so good when they actually have to answer questions So here's an appeal to any full preterists

02:03:26

If you would like to come on here we got Sam frost we have lance we have jeremiah from the apologetic dog

02:03:36

If you want to debate any one of them I think they'd all be happy for the debate. And so come on just Contact me email me info at striving for eternity .com

02:03:48

info at striving for eternity .com And we can set up a formal debate

02:03:53

Since your view is so undeniable. We think you should be willing to come in here should be able to kick the butt

02:04:01

You should be able to come in. It should be as I said to the one person if sam is so bad Ambassador you yeah,

02:04:08

I should want to do it in my place Yeah, so that is the challenge to be able to totally

02:04:16

Annihilate snowman Yeah But until they come in i'm gonna just say

02:04:26

My position is that um until they come in They they can't even defend their own

02:04:35

View and that's why I think they're not here. But hey Maybe someone will prove me wrong I did the debate with the black hebrew israelite by debating an empty chair

02:04:44

And it actually brought a black hebrew israelite that came and debated me, which was great That's what we wanted the funnier thing with that was that you know, sam, you know how you know, you've won a debate

02:04:56

It's when everybody who agrees with the person like in this case, it was the black hebrew israelite I had a whole bunch of black hebrew israelites.

02:05:03

Tell me that that guy didn't do a good job That's how you know you won I've actually heard that with the full clutter of the base where he did.

02:05:12

Well, he didn't do a very representative Someone else would really yeah But that guy didn't do it

02:05:21

Well folks if you think you could do a better job come on in and and we'd love to host that debate

02:05:26

Uh next week, I think we're gonna do an open q a so if you guys got your questions, uh email me info at striving for eternity .com

02:05:35

Because uh a couple weeks ago drew and and tom took took care of a lot of questions we had in the backlog

02:05:41

Yeah They they're fun ones. I was glad you had fun with those and so um

02:05:48

If you guys want to to have some questions answered we prefer for folks to come on in But uh, we will be doing that next week

02:05:56

So just remember until then to strive to make today an eternal day The glory of god.