March 18, 2016 Show with Dr. Joseph Pipa on “The Lord’s Day” PLUS John Samson on “Fleeing from Error”

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July 14, 2016

DR. JOSEPH PIPA, President of Green Presbyterian Theological Seminary on “The LORD’s DAY” *PLUS* JOHN SAMSON, Pastor of King’s Church, Peoria, AZ & Former “WORD of FAITH” Preacher on “FLEEING FROM ERROR”

00:02: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour
00:50: And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions
00:56: Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth Who are listening via live streaming?
01:13: This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this 18th day of March 2016 and it's so great to have back on the program someone who hasn't been with us for a number of years
01:29: But I remember fondly Not only meeting him in person and hearing him preach at the
01:34: Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York A number of years ago when he was a visiting speaker
01:41: But also in having interviewed him on the old iron sharpens iron radio program
01:47: Broadcasting out of Long Island in those days, but so great to have back on the program.
01:52: Dr. Joey Piper President of the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina He's also the author of a number of books including
02:03: Root and branch William Perkins and the development of Puritan preaching
02:09: The Westminster confession of faith study book a study guide for churches Galatians God's proclamation of Liberty and the topic where they're going to be discussing today the
02:21: Lord's Day If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is
02:27: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
02:32: a CHRI s they are NZ and a gmail .com But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron
02:40: I'm sorry not for the very first time. I should say for the very first time on the all -new iron sharpens iron
02:45: Dr. Joey Piper Thank you, Chris, it's great to be back with you.
02:51: I'm sorry. We've missed a couple of opportunities, but It's gracious today we cook it up.
02:57: Amen, and I want to also introduce you to my co -host today the
03:02: Reverend buzz Taylor greetings And I am outnumbered again today with two
03:11: Presbyterians and one reformed Baptist on the program And on the made you nervous to look how long it took you to contradict yourself today
03:24: And Before we even go into the subject at hand the Lord's Day please give our listeners who are unfamiliar with Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary a summary of what
03:38: This school is the history behind it and what you offer Thank you for the opportunity
03:45: Greenville was started in 1987 Couple of purposes.
03:50: Let me back up first Presbyterian and it's better than I define it our Presbyterians of the old school that believe the
03:58: Bible is the Word of God and salvation through Christ alone and Historically have held with delight to the
04:05: Westminster Confession of Faith and catechisms Which is one of the reasons seminary was started in?
04:10: 1987 number of men in the Greenville area. I saw a need for a conservative
04:17: Presbyterian seminary that would Emphasize the and hold to the
04:23: Westminster standards Second reason was to have a seminary that really was devoted to preparing men for the pastoral ministry.
04:30: That's our primary mission goal in life And so our main degree is a divinity degree
04:40: And we describe us as a Trans -denominational
04:47: Conservative Presbyterian seminary, but we do do have it after the years a number of excellent before Baptist students as well and sometimes even people from other backgrounds
05:00: So the seminary started in 87. So we're getting close to 30 years. I came in January of 1998 as the first president
05:10: So I'm now into starting my 19th year, which is hard to believe
05:17: And I know that our friend or mutual friend Pastor Bill Shishko is a adjunct professor there, correct?
05:25: Yes, for a number of years Bill's been teaching our pastoral theology course, which every year the students
05:32: Say in their evaluation and in their debrief senior debriefing that it's one of the best courses they've had unfortunately, because Bill is going to be changing ministry to Be to church planning for the
05:46: Orthodox Christian Church in the greater, New York area as well as developing a radio program
05:52: He's not going to be teaching the course this next year Well our greetings to Bill Shishko who actually
06:00: Reminded me to get you on the program as soon as possible, which is What the
06:06: Lord used to jog my memory and get you on here today and thank God you were willing late this
06:18: Michigan preaching the installation service for my son -in -law Who's being installed at the
06:24: Orthodox Christian Church there in Metamora, Michigan? Wow, that's really providential
06:33: Well, the the subject of our program today is the Lord's Day and You are
06:41: Fully aware. Dr. Piper that there are a number of differing understandings of the
06:49: Lord's Day what it is even the differences of opinion on what day it is between Obviously most
06:57: Christians who observe the Lord's Day on the first day of the week Sunday, but there are other groups most famous the
07:05: Seventh -day Adventists but even groups that are considered more within the pale of evangelicalism like Seventh -day
07:16: Baptists and even some Evangelical messianic works that choose to worship on a
07:24: Saturday some by Actual theological conviction that that is to be the day
07:33: We gather as God's people to worship because they believe it is the Sabbath that isn't the the focus of a program so I don't want to derail the the program today, but I know that you are a a a
07:48: Sunday Sabbath worshiper if you will yes, and If you know that we believe that Sunday is the
07:58: Lord's Day is the Christian Sabbath. Yes, and Why is it that you wrote this book the
08:05: Lord's Day when there have been Other books available in print on the subject you wrote this quite a while ago,
08:13: I believe right Right and actually at the time I don't know if there was anything
08:22: It was I guess Walt Chantry's book was in print at that time right shorter book
08:30: Maybe one other but there have not been a lot but also wanted to accomplish a couple of things
08:35: Chris I wanted to lay a strong exegetical foundation so the first over first half of the book
08:44: Exposition of various passages beginning with Isaiah 58 13 and 14 the promise and going to Genesis to the creation coordinates and then
08:57: Exodus 20 the creation commandment I mean the fourth commandment and then
09:04: Exodus 30 begin to interact on with when your circles will be known as new covenant theology the
09:12: Archaeological path is to think that we're not under the under the
09:17: Ten Commandments and Then I go to the New Testament and deal with Christ's teaching
09:26: Then the passage in Colossians on days Hebrews Deal with the change of day and the continuing that Sabbath I'm 92 which is a
09:43: Sabbath song. I begin to develop the purposes of the Sabbath the first one that being corporate worship
09:50: In fact that then also wanted to have a very practical book that would lay out suggestions so I deal with How do you use the
10:02: Sabbath how families use the Sabbath Things like that Give people a good hands -on way to approach the
10:11: Lord's Day as well great and There is obviously even a differences of opinion.
10:18: There are differences of opinion. I should say among even reformed people even people theologically reformed who view
10:26: The first day of the week as the Lord's Day in addition to the Lord's Day even the
10:32: Sabbath the New Testament or Christian Sabbath, but they disagree on the
10:38: How one is to rightly observe that day? they will say a lot of that is due to the fact that the
10:46: New Testament although very detailed in the Old Testament on What is to be done and not to be done on the on Sunday the
10:57: Lord's Day the Sabbath? I'm sorry, and obviously in the Old Testament. It was Saturday And There's a lot of information prohibitions and and commands of what must take place on The Sabbath Day in the
11:14: Old Testament, but it seems that in the New Testament The information that we have isn't as fully detailed if you could
11:21: Give us how you overcome That what seems to be
11:48: Lack of thorough detail on History Ceremonial law sacrificial laws these were laws to govern the church and God's people at specific periods of time the moral law of the
12:38: Bible is the revelation of God's law is a expression of his will
12:46: How his image bear relates to him and to one another? but for example the fourth commandment
12:55: The list of your confession says is a perpetual or positive law
13:01: So perpetual means it is to govern the church throughout. It's This age until Christ returns
13:09: Moral, but it's the expression of God's moral character, and how we are to relate to him and worship him but positive
13:15: There are certain things about it that Were a revelation of God's will for periods of time and that particularly would have been the day
13:26: So in the fourth commandment, it's the seventh day in the
13:34: Sacrifices of the Old Testament, I mean the festival of the Old Testament there were particular days there were
13:39: Sabbaths and those days that came to a fulfillment in Christ as the writer
13:47: Paul says the Colossians but the fact that one day in seven is a more is
13:53: Well, the fact that one day belongs to God exclusively is more Which day and the pattern of days is probably positive
14:02: So it was the seventh day a whole day and the Old Testament and that changed in the
14:07: New Testament then to the first day So there's a great deal of material in the Old Testament that of course doesn't apply but there's also a great deal of material that does apply
14:16: God doesn't need to repeat himself It's one Bible, it's not two Bibles and so that's the moral revelation of God's will in any number of areas,
14:26: I mean work and robbery and all those things are not explicitly repeated in the detail they are in the
14:32: Old Testament because The assessment writers recognize the moral validity of those things. So in the fourth commandment
14:41: In places like Isaiah 58 13 and 14, we have very clear injunctions of What God expects of us on the day
14:53: And those injunctions are summarized in the confession of Western to confession of faith
14:58: That we are to do these public and private worship Christian service necessity and mercy so it's left to conscience so to speak is
15:11: For each individual now this particular deed thing I'm doing Does it fall within the parameters of those guidelines?
15:21: so take for example a nap Some people need a nap.
15:29: That's not a violation of the Sabbath as some people try to suggest but rather To deed of mercy and necessity if I'm going to keep the
15:36: Sabbath, I'm going to go to the next week Not worn out then I have taken that I can worship better at night
15:47: I had a friend. I have a friend in Houston an elder Who used to go out run around the block a couple times on Sunday afternoon?
15:56: Not as recreation But to fulfill the purposes of the Sabbath so that he would not fall asleep in church on Sunday night so In the book actually proposed some questions
16:10: With respect to necessity and mercy it falls down do these activities help me?
16:17: Keep the Sabbath and do they promote the purposes of the Sabbath? So I try to give those kind of guidelines
16:24: To people then how they run their families and what they do with the children now in Isaiah 58 13
16:35: Right the the actual text says If because of the
16:41: Sabbath you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on my holy day and call the
16:46: Sabbath a delight the holy day of the Lord Honorable and honor it desiring from your own ways from seeking your own pleasure and speaking your own word and The phrase that I'm highlighting here is calling the
17:01: Sabbath a delight there are People that would look upon any type of Sabbatarian restriction or any
17:12: View of the Lord's Day that it is filled with prohibitions They would say that they that is robbing the delight from the day and they look upon Christians who are really hammering down on Keeping that day apart in many ways as being
17:34: Basically cosmic killjoys for the life of a better term First is
17:42: I just read this morning in Psalm 37 that wonderful statement Delight yourself in the
17:48: Lord Our delights are to be spiritual delights
17:55: That relate to God and his will If we delight like that then of course
18:00: God gives us our desires which is what creates true blessing and happiness Second Take another commandment was take the seventh commandment
18:11: Does it take away from the delight of my marriage that I am to serve my life sacrificially that I'm not to watch pornography
18:19: I'm not to engage in fornication That there are a number that I'm not to get drunk
18:26: And she's to be in submission to me and to be a helper corresponding to my needs and that she's not to engage in other types of sexual activity
18:38: But anybody say that takes away from the delight of marriage. No, it creates delight in marriage. It protects marriage.
18:44: That's an excellent point And so that people have a wrong view of God's law. In fact that the chapter
18:50: I have in the book on the fourth commandment from the market day of the soul what
18:59: God does with the prohibitions is Clear the deck so to speak Frees us from our own works recreations and thoughts and conversations about work and recreation
19:12: So we can have time devoted to these greater delights that we don't have that same kind of time
19:20: Ministers do but but you record Christian has his work responsibilities great time demands upon him so God Frees us and that's the better way to look at the at the prohibitions
19:40: And we do have a listener in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania BB who says
19:49: I know that some of the Seventh -day Sabbatarians Are very harsh in their judgment towards those who worship on Sunday.
19:57: They will even call them Blaspheming the Lord's Day they will call them heretics and they will even discount their
20:05: Christianity altogether at times Are you doing the same in reverse against those?
20:11: Who either worship on a Saturday and who are biblically sound otherwise
20:16: Or who do not view Sunday as specifically the Sabbath, but only as the
20:22: Lord's Day Good question We haven't really got into the day
20:30: I Anybody that could trust in Christ alone for salvation
20:36: Has a clear doctrine of justification by faith alone Trinity the basic doctrines of the
20:42: Bible. I would go as a Christian brother or sister and Do I can have it in as a brother or sister?
20:50: But for example early on I was at a supporter of dr. Carson. I think he's an evangelical
20:57: Yes, got you got some other couple of the strange views in addition to the Sabbath. I'm assuming you took my da
21:03: Carson No, I'm talking about the presidential Okay, I'm sorry
21:12: Well, I know I know that he does not have a saboteur in view of the Lord's Day. That's why I am
21:27: With respect to the practices of the Sabbath, I Don't treat with contempt or Or disdain
21:40: People who don't agree with me, but I think they're sinning And I Don't always say that I'm often out doing corporate supply
21:53: I'm exposed to great numbers of people that have different views of the Sabbath. I don't feel compelled to correct them
22:01: I think No, I want people to grow in this area
22:06: Paul says in 2nd Timothy to that These things come slowly.
22:12: And so God gives light. I think they're sinning At times
22:18: I will say that if I'm preaching on this matter, I'm gonna say I think it's said if you do these things
22:24: So I'm not going to treat you with contempt I'll show you that a Christian if you
22:29: Are if you don't agree Let me point out though that again the historical short -sightedness
22:38: Until about 70 50 75 years ago evangelicals of all major stripes
22:46: Shared these same views of respect to the Sunday is the Lord's Day the Christian Sabbath I think it started with televised sports but in this television era
23:00: That we have seen a change in the practice of the church. So the whole church Took this position that this
23:12: Historically, so this is a kind of new phenomenon. It comes out of I think some difficult exegetical background another book
23:24: I had privilege of contributing to is the four of you book on the Sabbath Ligonier, I think published it
23:31: In that we it was the format was the best four of you for now. I've ever seen each
23:38: Contributed it was a certain Adventist An evangelical a
23:43: Lutheran and I each man with large piece cutting forth biblical basis for his position and then
23:54: Each Other's position and then the other had opportunity to respond.
24:00: So it's a nice discretion but in that In the evangelical position what you basically find is a much different view of the law not just the poor commandment
24:14: That really comes into play here. So we have to recognize that we do have some what you would call hermeneutical
24:21: Science of interpretation issues and we have to look at those issues and let's see where they lead so Discussions good
24:31: We don't we shouldn't condemn each other because then we can't have good civil discourse
24:38: Now was this the book? that Dr.
24:44: Belcher edited or is this a different book where you contributed with the other views? Pardon me
24:50: You were talking about a book where there were three different views of the Sabbath or the views a different book
24:57: Book that was done a few years ago. Okay, so this is different than dr. Belcher's book The second
25:03: I forget this exact title of dr. Belcher's book, but it was on the Sabbath, but this is a different one Yeah, this one was
25:11: I Forget who the editor was but it was Basically the four of the four primary views.
25:18: Okay. Yeah, I'd like to look that up myself, but but but you know I think really the vehemence that your listener was was referring to I've read some of the stuff before that it seems to come from two specific camps one is obviously the seventh day of Venice who consider
25:37: Sunday worship the mark of the beast and the other would be from a lot of reformed people who
25:44: Think that that's well, you know, there was the Catholic Church that changed the day from Saturday to Sunday and of course
25:53: That's an unfinished part of reforming the church Changing it back.
25:58: I believe that I've heard on a few occasions Right, which is quite a mistake.
26:03: I do deal with that in the book both in the exegesis of Colossians To but also
26:09: I have a chapter on the history. Okay, it's very interesting the early church Many of the church fathers would have in practice been sabbaterians.
26:22: They avoided the term Because of the conflict with Judaism But at the end of the day
26:31: They helped the concepts there's an excellent republication of Book by bounds
26:38: B .o .w. n .d .s That's why press has done it.
26:44: This was the classic work that Shakes probably
26:51: English puritanism And it's available now and it's quite readable and I would encourage people that want to get into the in -depth
26:59: I encourage you read my book first, but Into the in -depth discussion
27:06: About this is delightful Well before we go into I'd like you to get into a little bit about why you believe
27:14: Sunday is the Lord's Day. In other words why you believe the New Covenant has a different day
27:20: Than the Old Covenant after we come back from these messages And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question
27:27: Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
27:32: Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside of the USA, don't go away
27:38: We'll be right back with dr. Joey Piper and the observance of the Lord's Day I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers
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30:32: Welcome back. This is Chris arms. And if you just tuned us in our guest today is dr. Joey Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina We're talking about his book the
30:45: Lord's Day and the subject the Lord's Day in general or the observance of the Lord's Day My co -host in studio with me is the reverend buzz
30:53: Taylor and if you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
30:59: Chris a RNZ and a gmail .com. Please. Give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the
31:06: USA So going back to the the great divide on the
31:13: Sabbath question between those who are Seventh -day observers and Those who are
31:21: Sunday or first day observers and there are not only Seventh -day
31:26: Adventists adhering to the seventh day, but there are Messianic groups and Seventh -day
31:31: Baptists some of the oldest still Open and operating
31:39: Congregations in the United States believe it or not are from the Seventh -day Baptist denomination going back to the 1600 some of them and found an interesting story about the great reformed
31:52: Baptist theologian and pastor John Gill who had a great friendship with a
32:00: British Seventh -day Baptist named Samuel Stennett who also Wrote a number of hymns some of which are in all of our hymnals and They used to swap pulpits even though both of them had a strong view about What day the
32:20: Sabbath day was? John Gill believing in first -day observance and Samuel Stennett believing in Seventh -day observance and and Samuel Stennett the
32:31: Seventh -day Baptist actually was one of the men who preached John Gill's funeral service but even though that that division
32:42: The exists there is some camaraderie and there's some friendship and brotherhood extended but there but everyone seems to think that it is important.
32:50: It's not just a Insequential, you know trivial thing, but if you could tell us why
32:58: Just a number of reasons why you believe the day was changed when the New Covenant Came into fruition
33:19: Hey, man, well, I think I have my next topic for your guests on my being a guest on my program
33:26: I Can get in deep deep yogurt, but the I think the
33:32: ESV did a great marketing job And got a lot of reformed names behind it, but I don't think it can compare to the
33:42: Didn't go to the 1995 version, but I did a few years ago and I love The only thing
33:49: I don't like about the 1995 is all the time in my preaching I said when you see the word therefore see what it's there for and then they took the word there for out
33:59: Messed up my sermons Let's start with Colossians chapter 2, which is kind of a negative there verses 16 and 17
34:18: I said therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a
34:24: New moon or a Sabbath day or Sabbath days Things which are mere shadow of what is to come the substance belongs to Christ There's a couple things here that I think are very important.
34:36: What is by this? Section Paul does away with all the Jewish worship festival days.
34:42: So The three phrases Festivals new moons or Sabbaths come out they're often used together as Leviticus chapter 23 and they refer to the holy days of the
34:57: Old Covenant and a policy is that no one can require a
35:04: New Covenant Christian to keep those days in the period between the ascension of Christ and the destruction of the temple
35:13: Christians were allowed in addition to the First day
35:20: Sabbath to observe Jewish Ceremonies so the Apostle Paul was in a hurry to get back to Jerusalem before the feast
35:30: But What Paul is saying here is that you have a liberty? particularly as a
35:36: Jewish Christian if you want to observe those days in addition to The Christian Sabbath to do so, but you can't require anybody else to do so Then with the destruction of the temple all of those days were done away with the final transition was completed
35:52: It's not a real problem with the messianic Jews who insist on these days Well, in fact,
35:57: I think that they have been completely abrogated now with the abrogation of temple worship
36:05: And then what Paul shows is all the old covenant days pointed to the perfect work of the
36:11: Lord Jesus Christ He was not doing away with one day in seven and that's clear from number of the
36:21: Apostles It was revealed by Christ through them. I pattern all the
36:28: Revelation of the Christ meeting with the Apostles on the first day of the week not necessarily the only times you've met with them but in terms of revelation
36:40: Actually goes back to the Feast of Tabernacles Where the high day of that feast was the eighth day and you'll find that some of the gospel writers
36:50: I think John for example will refer to the Sabbath as the eighth day The Lord's Day Sunday picking up on the idea that this day now as is the day that has replaced the other day
37:05: The church met on the first day of the week It's called the Lord's Day revelation.
37:11: Chapter one. This is really Paul as I mentioned earlier. It was in a hurry to Get to Jerusalem in time of the feast
37:21: We didn't try Remained For a period of time
37:31: In order to meet with the church on the first day of the week for the breaking of bread
37:38: So obviously the church was meeting on the first day of the week to worship the
37:44: Lord So we have the apostolic example. We have the example of Christ Then we come to Hebrews chapter 4
37:52: That was a book that would speak to us more clearly about the
37:58: Transition and the change of the day it'd be the book that does away with Jewish practices for the sake of the
38:05: Jews who attempted to return to Judaism and to set forth the clear new covenant principles
38:13: In chapter 4 Paul is considering continuing a Exhortation it actually began in chapter 3 verse 12
38:24: Hebrews has a number of these exhortations so the people would not turn back He sets before them the church in the wilderness fell away
38:38: Believed the good news that was being preached so it didn't profit them. It wasn't united by faith
38:44: He shows that We who have believed have entered that rest
38:50: Referring to the rest that belongs to us in Christ and then he relates that to the
38:59: Creation ordinance of the seventh day Shows that the rest being promised also is the rest of salvation
39:07: It was not accomplished when the people entered the land because otherwise David wouldn't have given the warning today
39:15: If you hear his voice do not harden your hearts He says that Joshua didn't give them that final rest
39:38: Remains a Sabbath rest the people of God Now is it a couple of very important things to notice here in the first place people of God is a technical phrase referred to covenant people
39:54: Call flying to the covenant people in the new covenant. He says there remains a Sabbath rest second interesting thing is he
40:03: Here alone in this whole section uses a different word. He's used one word for rest
40:09: It's a broader term. They can talk about Physical rest it talks about spiritual rest
40:16: He's used to talk about a resting in Christ and eternal rest, but now he says because of that that's had the absolute there remains because we have this exhortation to enter into the spiritual rest that remains in a
40:32: Sabbath, yes, I appreciate the amendment standard picking up then The change of word the word is used there
40:42: In the this is a noun the only place it's used in the the
40:48: New Testament Or even in the Old Testament, but in the Old Testament In the
40:54: Greek translation of the Old Testament the verbal form is often used for Sabbath keeping
41:01: That's what the word means But for example Exodus chapter 16 When God gave them manna, he told them that they were to collect it on the second day
41:11: That they were to keep the Sabbath. That's the verbal form in the
41:16: Greek of the word that's used here So Paul is saying there remains a Sabbath rest or a
41:22: Sabbath keeping for the people of God for a covenant people as Pink says if you wanted a
41:31: New Testament Iteration of the commandment here it is the New Testament is not solid about this
41:40: But then interestingly you notice that he relates verse 10 to verse 9 with the word for a
41:50: One who has entered his rest As himself also rested from his works as God did of his
41:57: I Think the worst translation here is the NIV But none of them get close to the
42:04: Greek as the New American Standard does and What?
42:11: We have here is that the one is an indefinite pronoun singular Well, who is this one
42:21: Every other reference to the people of God in chapter 4 is in the plural This is a singular pronoun
42:29: John Owen, and I think he's right on target here Pointed out that this is the Lord Jesus Christ Who is actually introduced back in the end of chapter 3 we become partakers of Christ if we hold fast
42:43: That's the whole grounding of this exhortation So he says then that That the
42:53: NIV picks up the translation or interpretation that this has to do with the sinner Who Enters into his rest as rested from his works of sin as God did from his
43:07: Now and which is kind of ludicrous to compare our works of sin to God's work of creation
43:15: As well as grammatically is very improper. So it says that the one is the
43:20: Lord Jesus Christ He Rested from his works as God the
43:26: Father did from his works I got the father the works here would be the work of creation and I think that the writer of Hebrews clearly had in mind
43:37: Genesis 2 1 through 3 Institution of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance is the seventh day of creation
43:45: But a change has taken place And when did Christ enter into his rest?
43:51: Here's his rest from the first day of the week when he rose again from the dead That's when he went into a state of exaltation and everything was completed for the redemption of his people
44:04: So it points out that what we have here is the change of day And that's clear and rest of the
44:11: New Testament That because of Christ's resurrection is why the church began to worship on the first day of week
44:19: So there's the positive exegetical background for the change of day
44:26: Historical arguments of Adventists are easily dismissed by simply looking at what? Practice of the church worshiped on the first day of the week from its very beginning.
44:36: So for example, Justin Martin When we learn about his worship first day of the week The Letter Finally back to Rome They worship on the first day of the week
44:54: And so it really is not at all good history To say that first day worship began under Constantine the cost under Constantine.
45:05: It's just a historical mistake That's easily easily refuted and how early back
45:13: Do those patristic sources go that you're you're quoting there? Well, Justin's probably went what 150
45:18: AD 150. That's very soon after the apostolic error. So right and Do you know if any of the wording of the the patristics?
45:31: Has a recognition that this was a universally Observed practice or it wasn't any kind of unique Practice But worshipped on the second day as well as the first day
45:50: I say But I've had any references that Anybody worship the seventh day instead of the first day and I do want to say in fairness to some of my messianic brethren
46:02: Who are first day observers that were not broad brushing here in fact a dear friend of mine who is now in heaven
46:10: Marty from of Beth Yeshua, which Is a congregation and which would be translated from the
46:19: Hebrew house of Jesus or house of salvation He was very opposed to things that smacked of Judaizing and he
46:29: Christian witness Israel. Yes a good example of a very polished approach My good friend
46:45: Christian focus is published where he actually critiques the dangers of what many people refer to as Yes, Judaism is not
46:54: Jewish was the original title anyway So the the thing about when it comes down to I guess nitpicking when
47:08: Is it is it dangerous for a church? That is sabbatarian in regard to the
47:15: Lord's Day Sunday the first day or the eighth day if you will Is it dangerous to go overboard in the restrictions that you impose on your people that Can on at times even go beyond what the scriptures are clearly teaching?
47:35: Well, I think your question answers itself if the church goes beyond What scripture teaches
47:42: Then it's turning into a estimate fair say is But for church to teach that people are not to pursue number locations on the
47:53: Lord's Day Not to do recreation on Sunday afternoon Often be it two services that the church has two services
48:03: Not to be watching television youth groups should be doing recreation activities I think that's positive again a lot depends on the mindset
48:12: If the church is doing these things to promote the beauties of the Sabbath Then it's no different in the church
48:19: You know teaching people don't watch x -rated movies. Don't watch duty on television
48:27: Be careful In fact, I was reading this morning in Proverbs 5 and I've actually thought of the piece
48:33: I'd like to write because that's four points out of the chapter on how to keep sexual purity
48:41: And so yeah, we don't just say be sexually pure you say if you're going to be sexually pure you should
48:47: Do certain things and not do certain things. So again, that's So yeah some churches
48:53: It's all negative Because it's all negative. You've missed the purpose of the Sabbath And that's why
49:01: I have such a good response to the book because of its positive trust This is a gift as marriage is a gift section marriage is a gift.
49:09: This is a gift Now for it to be a properly used gift. We need to use it
49:17: According to God's guidelines if we do it's going to be great Now There are there have long been
49:27: Exceptions as far as one's job is concerned Mercy and necessity for instance a nurse a doctor a
49:40: Police officer things like that. They would say of course they are permitted to work on the
49:47: Sabbath That's part of proper side of keeping
50:03: Like that you see because He was a plumber if somebody calls me and they've got you know major leak in their house
50:15: And I'm saying you're supposed to go And take care of the leak She can't keep the
50:22: Lord's Day if water run into her house and her property's being destroyed Interesting that the
50:27: Lord's Day was not designed to destroy productivity God gave us six days as the principle.
50:35: That's why And the Bible is interesting even for example here
50:41: Fathers had to take care of the livestock On the Sabbath in the Old Testament In a lot of the
50:50: Dutch Reformed churches which were in farming areas their second service was pretty early in the afternoon
50:55: Because most of the people were farmers and they had to milk feed the livestock
51:02: That was the wrong map to do that a farm and had sailing ships that were out three years at a time
51:11: So obviously It's a sailing ship. It's not properly sailed it with the founder and fake
51:19: And so there are things that would have to be done for the protection and safety of the crew I have friends who for a while had a owned a fishing fleet in the
51:30: Balkans and the captain of their ship Found in the country was not a
51:36: Christian But their instructions were quite clear you'd be sure on Saturday that the
51:44: Catches in everything is put away. The ship is clean and Then from midnight
51:50: Saturday to midnight Sunday You do nothing in the fishing enterprise, but you must run your ship.
51:55: You must feed your crew those types of things Hospitals colleges churches actually dealt with That Public errands where people stayed and ate
52:15: Were my father in the Sabbath if they served a meal To the guests on the
52:21: Sabbath I've read that in Scotland the Presbyterian keepers actually Invited guests to be guests at their table and didn't charge them.
52:30: That's a big thing for Scott Used to be it's much different now with computers, but there's like certain industries this takes melting that If you turn the furnace off Saturday Which it needed to be kept at a certain heating and heating that I went into it to do that You couldn't start it back up at midnight on Sunday night and be productive on Monday Because the father is designed not to Hurt the six days work.
53:15: It's always been said these are works of necessity Christian freedom
53:22: Even as a policeman a doctor pharmacist, whatever Should make sure the location that you know as much as possible that he's not working on Sunday and if he is he's got at least to be able to attend one service on Sunday, but You know, those are things that Christians do service to serve their fellow men and I'm not breaking the
53:49: Sabbath, of course it To bring it to a practical level.
53:54: This is something that divides even Sabbatarians, you will have people who eat at restaurants
54:01: After worship services and some will say you can't do that. It's the Sabbath. You shouldn't be going to a restaurant and they will say well
54:09: I'm not Working. I'm enjoying a meal a fellowship Then the other person will say but you're forcing those waiters waitresses and the cooks to work and the person will say well
54:22: No, I'm not. They're not my employees. They would be there anyway, and I'm just eating there because it is a
54:31: Providential thing that the restaurant is open and available and that kind of thing are those things up in your opinion up to individual
54:40: Liberty or Action actually Chris, I think the scripture speaks to I'm a call recreational eating on Sunday in two places in the fourth commandment
54:53: When it lifts the people it says you're a female and male servant and the soldier who stays with you now
55:02: But in our society, I wish I had a servant I often think about it have somebody to do things around here and to polish my shoes
55:13: Stuff like that, but I don't But what we do have in our culture
55:21: Public service I work in retail for a number of years High school college and seminary.
55:28: I think it's a lot different today, but we were doing it. We were the servants The people who came into our store
55:37: I'm not exactly true that the people there are replacing the servants
55:47: What the past culture servants did those the servants but strangers so it's not just the
55:54: Covenantal person who's serving it is the non -governmental person who is it living in the land?
56:01: You're not to work them either And then we do a specific application of the principle in the book of Nehemiah in Nehemiah One of the issues that he was dealing with and that the culture had been similar to us.
56:17: I mean, yes they were under a fallen culture a
56:23: Non -biblical culture, but they were trying to preserve the typical morality in the midst of that and one of the things that Nehemiah Describes in chapter 13 is the
56:35: Sabbath breaking So he says in verse 15 that people were treading the wine presses and bringing sacks of burning and loading them unloading them
56:45: Wine great figs all kinds and they brought them to Jerusalem on the Sabbath day I've watched them on the day that they sold food that this would be the
56:56: Gentiles the Samaritans or whatever Then if Tyler living there who imported fish and all kinds of merchandise and sold them to the sons of Judah on the
57:05: Sabbath It is your parallel So you got a non Christian non -believers selling stuff to a believer on the
57:13: Sabbath I reprimanded the nobles of Judah and sent to them. I said to them what is this evil thing you do by profaning the
57:20: Sabbath day? So by buying from the Gentiles He's a little profanity in the
57:26: Sabbath They did not your father said the same so that our God brought on us and on the city all this trouble
57:32: Yet you're adding to a riot on Israel by profanity the Sabbath it came about Just as it grew dark at the gates of Jerusalem before the
57:41: Sabbath I commanded that the doors should be shut and that they should not open them until after the
57:46: Sabbath then I stationed Some of my servants at the gates so that no load would enter on the
57:53: Sabbath day Once or twice the traders and merchants that would be the Gentiles of every kind of merchandise spent the night outside Jerusalem Then I warned them and said why do you spend the night in front of the wall if you do so again?
58:08: I will use force Against you from that time on they did not come on the
58:14: Sabbath And so I think that answers the question of reparation of eating out on the woods day
58:22: And I think it also lays the biblical foundation for what? Used to be called blue laws
58:28: That laws that prohibited any retail operations opening on awards day.
58:34: So it's a very nice biblical Now the trickier things are the things that even sabbatarians of the strictest order are
58:43: Occasionally doing like filling up their gas tank because most sabbatarians I know do drive on the
58:50: Lord's Day and so either you're Making the guy who pumps the gas sin by working that day or you're sitting yourself because you're filling up your tank
59:01: That seems to be a trickier issue because it could be a work of necessity and even the electricity in your home
59:08: Using the telephone and those kinds of things That person home is a necessity
59:16: There's a major storm if you'd like to find a policeman the lineman has to go out and Do things 250 miles
59:36: After Sunday evening service, I drive back. I listen to sermons. I'm keeping the saddle I Topped my tank off when
59:44: I get there on Saturday night. I Think it's wrong to buy gas on Sunday.
59:49: I think it's wrong to fly I'm commercial airlines on Sunday because those are not these of necessity and so The service is supposed to shape our lives and our use of time and our priorities and And so I think you know, there's just a lot of rethinking that ought to go on I don't condemn those that do that I like an opportunity.
01:00:17: I'm an alien correct them, but I get up encouraging to rethink what they're doing But I think there's a lot of rethinking it needs to Go on here again.
01:00:26: It's not Negativism and I passed through the small town of Mississippi with three service stations.
01:00:33: Each one was owned by a Christian a Professing Christian, and I would
01:00:39: I said look we're here on this major highway. I Recognized that this people are going to come through here and because they're trying to make gas.
01:00:49: Why don't you all? All today put a sign up Other two stations if you want gas today, you can get gas at the other station.
01:00:59: They wouldn't agree to that I Remember would agree to it.
01:01:05: So there's things that can be done But it's just people don't even want to think about it
01:01:12: Well, I know dr. Piper that you couldn't be with us for the full two hours But we are eagerly looking forward to for you to come back especially for your discussion on the
01:01:22: New American Standard Bible since they do Support this program and without them this program may likely not exist
01:01:32: And I thank them so dearly for their support of the program But I think it is an order to pay tribute to them once again
01:01:39: With a special program and it would love for you to be a part of that I Thank you so much for your charity and your grace for for being on last minute
01:02:16: I just want to give our listeners your website is gpts edu gpts for Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary dot edu god bless you brother and you
01:02:27: Chris. Thank you Goodbye, and our next guest is going to be
01:02:33: John Sampson who is president of And his culture he would be king
01:02:40: I think but he is the pastor of the King's Church in Peoria, Arizona he is a
01:02:48: Reformed Baptist who is a former Word of Faith Pentecostal preacher and pastor and Host of a
01:02:56: Word of Faith television program on the TBN Network Trinity Broadcasting Network, which is an oxymoron because they allow one this
01:03:06: Pentecostals to preach on their their network But he by God's grace was delivered out of that heresy
01:03:15: Not that one that's been a costalism, but the Word of Faith heresy and has been by God's grace
01:03:23: Embracing the doctrines of grace for a number of years as a Reformed Baptist and we are going to be talking about fleeing from error
01:03:32: We already had him specifically address the Word of Faith movement in the past and you can look up That program that interview on the archive
01:03:40: The audience sharpens iron radio .com But today we're just going to be more general in our discussion about fleeing from error
01:03:47: And we're gonna be right back after these messages with John Sampson to discuss that so don't go away
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01:07:15: Welcome back. And as I announced earlier, we are very honored to have as our second guest today someone who has left the
01:07:26: Beautiful and radiant realms of glory in heaven to come here to the planet Earth Charles Haddon Spurgeon is
01:07:35: Joining us for the second hour and I'm kidding because many people may not realize that my second guest
01:07:41: John Sampson was the voice of Charles had the Spurgeon in the ad that you just heard for solid ground
01:07:47: Christian books But I love that quote that I found for you to read there brother
01:07:52: But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona the iron sharpens iron
01:08:02: And Co -hosting with me. I don't believe he has ever been my co -host when you have been on in the past as a guest
01:08:09: But my co -host for the last several weeks has been the Reverend Buzz Taylor and so greet
01:08:15: John Sampson John good to meet you And today
01:08:21: Chris you're outnumbered again because we've both got word -of -faith backgrounds That's right.
01:08:27: I didn't actually I didn't know you were word -of -faith back. Oh, yeah. I spent a little bit I'll explain more about that later.
01:08:32: I'm sure. Oh, wow. Well, I knew that my co -host Buzz Taylor he has just to give keep our our guests up to speed
01:08:43: He was raised in an Episcopal home, but became a fundamentalist Baptist went to Bob Jones University and then eventually
01:08:54: Became charismatic and Pentecostal. I knew that And then he was involved with the
01:09:00: Church of God Peoria, Illinois or Ohio, that's right Philly, Ohio and then became
01:09:08: Presbyterian which he still is to this day Well, I'm working on him leaping over the the baby font and becoming
01:09:16: Reformed Baptist But I didn't this all the time
01:09:24: I've known you I did not know that you were well, yeah It was part of it. It was very short -lived and I've never really got my feet totally wet in it
01:09:32: It's about time to get your whole self wet I've got it all different ways.
01:09:46: So I must be safe but Pastor John Sampson You are a very
01:09:54: Wise choice to speak on fleeing from error because of your own background having once been enslaved into the dark in the darkness of of the
01:10:07: Word of Faith heresy and Before we go into a broader discussion on fleeing from error.
01:10:13: Why don't you let our listeners who? May be unfamiliar with that. They may have heard of the personalities
01:10:21: Involved in that but they may not actually be very Familiar with the term what it means and I do have listeners by the way on occasion that are not even
01:10:29: Christian Who are hearing these things for the first time? So why don't you explain to our listeners?
01:10:35: What word of faith heresy is all about? It's really the idea that Based on part of the verse in Romans 10 which speaks of the
01:10:44: Word of Faith. So it's picked up from the Bible but it's the idea that With the words that we speak we can create our set of circumstances to our liking the
01:10:55: God in the Garden gave man dominion handed man the keys so to speak of the keys of a car and then man crashed the car
01:11:05: But he still has this thing called dominion over everything and he can handle the weather if he'll only just speak the right words
01:11:13: There's a verse in Proverbs that says death and life are in the power of the tongue and Whereas we would say we believe that we would limit it to speaking about relationships, everybody knows that words can be
01:11:28: Really defining and can cause both life and death in the sense of relationships many would want to take back many of the words we've said over the years to our loved ones and They really have negative or positive impact where the word of faith goes is to say those words should be taken literally or literalistically to say that we speak death into our life physical death by saying just words like I'm dying to see you or That tickle me to death and then
01:12:00: I'll bondage You're killing the real bondage involved in that so that at a funeral with word of faith people involved
01:12:07: Everyone's wondering what words were spoken that caused the death of a loved one. Well, you know something
01:12:12: I didn't even realize after even doing programs with you already on that issue and hearing other people
01:12:20: Refute the word of faith heresy. I didn't even know that it went that far. I just learned so yeah, that's just in Sanity.
01:12:28: Yes. I mean that And really if you take that analogy of God giving man the keys like a father would a
01:12:36: Youngster who turns 18 gives him the car keys and says it's your car now Really the the idea that God's on the outside looking in he's he's now given man the authority on the earth and Adam in the word of faith teaching was the
01:12:51: God with a small G of this world and By submitting to the devil in the garden
01:12:57: Satan became the God of this world and Therefore reigns and we empower him when we speak words in line with his mode of operation
01:13:07: Which is to kill steal destroy and God can't stop that if we speak words of death
01:13:14: God has to allow it to happen. We've let the devil in Wow, yeah, well
01:13:21: Yeah, this is this is really crazy stuff now. Yeah It is it is amazing how
01:13:31: When you're trying to be instructive to someone Trying to correct them about something you believe is an error about them and this even goes with the fingers pointing back at ourselves when we are
01:13:45: Trying or someone else is trying to correct us in an error it can be a very maddening infuriating
01:13:55: Situation our pride raises its ugly head and I've never seen it happen Maybe this is an exaggeration
01:14:03: But it seems that I've haven't seen this happen amongst Bible believing Christians, and I'm including myself in this until Donald Trump ran for president of the
01:14:14: United States, I mean the vitriol the the fury the the
01:14:22: It's just it just is very troubling and I'm talking about my own also
01:14:30: Maddening frustration with people that I think there's just so totally wrong on their their support their their giddy excited support
01:14:42: Enthusiastic support of Donald Trump. It's just beyond my imagination You know why even from people who are?
01:14:50: Theologically in sync with me And and of course I in turn in seeking to correct something that I believe is an error.
01:14:58: I have unfortunately had to make a public apology on Facebook because I got nasty with some people to an extreme
01:15:05: I believe and overstepped the bounds of Christian conduct, I didn't use vulgarity or profanity, but I I just think
01:15:13: I went too far and maybe We're not even maybe I came across to some people as being
01:15:21: Prideful and arrogant and being guilty of the very things that I think Donald Trump Embodies his personal but That all saying all that it is a very difficult thing to correct someone in error
01:15:35: Unless they've already been softened by the Holy Spirit or something if you could just address that issue. I think that's
01:15:41: Absolutely key, there's very very few conversations that I've had that have resulted in someone saying absolutely
01:15:48: I'm going to study that I'm going to look into that most people are very defensive That held on to their belief for a very long time and they believe they've got valid reasons for it
01:16:00: Just an illustration about a week or so ago. Maybe ten days ago I was about to set out of the house and just quickly check the mirror before I did and Realized that all the buttons on my shirt were in the wrong place and it looked very very odd And it would be strange as I walked into various places them looking at me and thinking that that's pastor
01:16:22: John he looks like he can't handle his life Button in the top hole.
01:16:34: Yes, and it was it was wrong all the way down and If you and I miss it on things like the sovereignty of God, we're gonna miss it all the way down in our thinking
01:16:47: Yeah, I lived it thankfully I stopped the problem before I walked out the door but Yeah, it's it's so easy to see it in others and so hard to see it in ourselves and I remember a statement
01:16:59: I heard of one theologian that only Well, he said the greatest theologian only gets 80 % of his theology, right and I Still don't know if that's a valid percentage, but I understand where he's coming from and that in that None of us have a perfect understanding of Scripture We there's things we're absolutely sure of and there's things that I think we need to be open to the
01:17:25: Holy Spirit Just as you said in your question to say God if I'm wrong, would you show me? That's um
01:17:32: Bible verses says the most we can get to is 80 % but I I like the thinking that says
01:17:38: God I Know I have traditions. I don't know where they are. That's why they're blind to me
01:17:45: We all have our blind spots. Would you lead me? Would you guide me? And then I would point people to Proverbs 2 which is something
01:17:52: I've made a prayer for many years about God open up my heart show me The scripture says if you receive my word treasure my command
01:18:02: Incline your ear and it goes on and on for four verses about the diligent heart of the student
01:18:08: It says then you'll understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God and so many are not willing to allow
01:18:16: God to shape their thinking because why would they they already know the truth they think well we have on top of that to the pressure of People that are very entrenched in their denominations and they know hey if I change
01:18:30: I'm going to lose my home my job everything You know, yeah, well, that's if they're a pastor.
01:18:35: I would assume you're right. Yes. Yes, it's very difficult Well, yeah,
01:18:46: I'm gonna first have Reverend buzz Give you a little background on what different Theological Systems he was embracing that were an error and how he came out of it and then perhaps
01:19:02: John you could comment on what buzz has to say my Background was a little bit different because well
01:19:11: As he mentioned I did graduate from Bob Jones University and that did do something Very wonderful for me as we were talking to a guest a few weeks ago
01:19:19: Chris remember Bill Shishko yeah, that it drove us to the word it drove us to the word, you know, and Didn't matter which direction
01:19:26: I went theologically. I kept going back to the word. So first of all, I have to say that When when we went as a family, we went to charismatic.
01:19:36: It was because of a couple things first of all I was in the process of getting a left foot of fellowship from a
01:19:43: Baptist Church a Baptist pastor it and As it was the charismatics that had reached out to us and and you know
01:19:51: It was a difficult time in life reached out to you with lifted arms Yes, yes, but the grocery bags really yeah, but I also have to admit that the fellow that that that was sort of mentoring us into it
01:20:06: Knew certain things not to let me hear. Okay because he knew as a
01:20:11: Baptist that you know, there were things that would have turned me off right away and he played a lot of Ken Copeland and Kenneth Hagen tapes for me and stuff and But he knew which ones not to let me hear as well as I found out the rest of the story later on but I was never even a very good charismatic because I never came to the point of Believing that the baptism the
01:20:35: Holy Spirit was a second work of grace and that tongues was for everybody, you know So I had some reservations anyway
01:20:41: But the word of faith movement my view of it as a charismatic For the very short time that I was accepting of it
01:20:48: It just seemed to me like, you know, we all believe the Bible, but they really believe it to where it works You know when you see all these wonderful stories about People being healed and you know, what do you say?
01:21:01: Well, of course I found out later on I Was not really seeing a lot. I was hearing a lot and I wasn't seeing the the lives backing up the professions
01:21:12: I was hearing and Too many of the sicknesses people were being healed of were things that couldn't be proven
01:21:18: I never saw a leg grow, you know that kind of stuff I know some people have but I've seen the trick how you do it, too But so I never really was that involved with it.
01:21:27: So it didn't it wasn't that hard to get me out of it and when I heard Actually, I think it was the
01:21:33: Bible answer man that I was listening to once when I was driving in a truck I Heard him talking about a particular woman in the ministry
01:21:43: Talking to her wallet and I realized this is you know, this is what they believe You know, if I talk to my wallet say you're so fat.
01:21:50: You've never been so fat. You're my wallet keeps saying Mine talks to me but you know
01:22:08: So it was it was easy for me to come out because I never got fully into it and again Because it was and I really came out of all of that Over a period of time as I was growing more and more in the
01:22:19: Reformed faith Now what was what was it that the Lord providentially used in your life to start to?
01:22:27: Draw you out of error, even when it comes to and please forgive me my Arminian listeners
01:22:32: Not trying to beat you up today, but well, I do believe that's an error of theology and when
01:22:38: I heard things like Kenneth Copeland saying that you know God lives on another planet like Earth, you know
01:22:46: So it's from his own mouth. Oh Stretching my oh, yes. I just they were like, are you are you actually saying this straight face?
01:22:55: I mean, so so in other words, it was not an outside source. It was somebody from within you
01:23:00: I was hearing things that I just could not accept as far as outside sources. Uh, I started studying
01:23:05: Bible prophecy and I realized very early on that everything
01:23:11: I had been taught about it was wrong and but a lot of the Teachers that I was reading a lot of the books
01:23:18: I was reading on prophecy were written by Reformed people and I finally decided at one point
01:23:24: I better start looking more into this Reformed stuff Yes, so John it seems that that at least in buzzes case immediately we have a biblically trained mind perhaps even from Bob Jones University, which
01:23:41: Back then was far from being Reformed, but at least had some strong adherence to core truths of the scripture and the
01:23:50: Christian faith where buzz seemed to be recognized seemed to be recognizing an erroneous teaching because of the exaltation of man and the diminishment of God and are those two key things that Should be litmus tests when it comes to are examining ourselves to see if we're in error
01:24:12: Absolutely and What I would do as I read certain statements of some of the more prominent people in the movement was simply to say well,
01:24:21: I'm glad I don't believe that and the problem with the word of faith is there's no sense well as many problems, but one of them is
01:24:29: There's no centralized headquarters like the Vatican or the LDS Apostle and so you don't have to sign on the line to say
01:24:39: I believe everything Kenneth Copeland ever said Over in England, you can survive in the word of faith without mr.
01:24:47: Copeland or Hagan You can never go to Denmark and visit Copenhagen I Was a very prominent author he's still alive and he was a
01:25:10: Church of England vicar who experienced what he called the Enfilling of the
01:25:15: Holy Spirit and I would class him as part of the word of faith movement in England if you read his writings
01:25:21: He's very orthodox on the deity of Christ, the humanity of Christ, there's none of the crazy stuff about what
01:25:29: Copeland would say happened between the cross and the resurrection and so on. Right, yeah. There's very, in other ways, very orthodox people involved in it.
01:25:40: What I would come to see is that I embraced an over -realized eschatology, which is two big words there sandwiched together, they're really, the idea is
01:25:51: Jesus went to the cross for sin, for sickness, for all of our ailments, and I believe he actually did, because I believe in heaven there will be no sickness or disease or any of that, but I believe he's also
01:26:04: Lord and sovereign over when that occurred in the believer's life, and that was the thing that was missing.
01:26:09: There was no acknowledgment of the sovereignty of God, in fact, there was lip service made, he is sovereign, but in his sovereignty he's given man dominion, that's how it would have been expressed.
01:26:22: Excellent, well I think that's a good point to go to a break and pick up when we return, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the
01:26:42: U .S .A., and please only remain anonymous if it's a personal, private matter, and in fact
01:26:51: I urge you to remain anonymous if you're talking about a church where you are a member, or something of that nature, and you're feeling uncomfortable with the theology or doctrine and whatnot, but anyway, we will be back after these messages, so don't go away, we look forward to your own questions, contributing to the conversation with Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, as we discuss fleeing from error, we'll be right back.
01:27:24: Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am
01:27:30: I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
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01:30:58: This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest for the second hour has been Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.
01:31:08: If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
01:31:15: We do have an anonymous listener who asks, I want to know if Pastor John thinks that the
01:31:22: Word of Faith heresy is damnable, must it be repented of to be saved?
01:31:30: Great. I would say it depends how heavily someone buys into the
01:31:39: Word of Faith and if you take it as just what it is, I would say yes, they have a different God than the
01:31:47: God of the Bible who isn't sovereign. End of statement. There are a lot of people in the Word of Faith who don't buy into all of the elements, but if someone does or has,
01:31:58: I would say it is something to be repented of. Just as God graciously brought me out, it was not a process that happened instantly.
01:32:07: It took a lot of work, also a lot of seeking of God, because when you're involved in something for a long, long time, normally it takes a while to unlearn many things, and I had to do that, and it was the revelation of God's sovereignty and salvation that opened the door in my understanding to look at the entire spectrum of the
01:32:31: Word of Faith and realize if God is sovereign here, He's got to be sovereign elsewhere, and in fact everywhere.
01:32:39: So, yeah, to answer your question, I think that, you know, people have asked me even recently, do you think you were a
01:32:46: Christian when you were involved in that, a genuine born -again Christian, and I would say, well, my view of God hasn't changed, the
01:32:53: Trinity, the deity of Christ, the humanity of Christ, what happened on the cross, but the deception was so strong that I remained in that system for much more than I should, and I have to say,
01:33:07: I don't know. I don't know, but I'm just so glad he brought me out, but I would just encourage the listener to look at the
01:33:14: Scripture and understand God as He really is, and the Gospel as it really is, and flee from every kind of pretender.
01:33:24: Hey, I have my doubts about you now, so... But one of the things when it comes to polemics or apologetics or just evangelizing people, not only, this is a two -way street here that I'm talking about.
01:33:45: People have to realize that seeking to correct someone in error is not a hateful thing.
01:33:52: It could be done hatefully by people who are disobeying the Scriptures themselves and are not reflecting the spirit of Christ and so on, and are not doing things through a compassion for their soul and out of humility, but the act in and of itself is not an act of hate.
01:34:13: Not only must people that we are speaking to, not only must they realize it, we have to realize it, because as we grow as Christians, we are, all of us, typically shed something that we held onto for a while and embrace something else.
01:34:33: Now, obviously, we always have to be Berean to make sure we're not shedding the wrong things and embracing the wrong things, but this whole thing about hurt feelings, this seems to be the 11th commandment of modern evangelicalism, thou shalt not hurt anyone's feelings.
01:34:50: That seems to be more important than wanting someone's soul to be saved from eternal damnation, and this has to go.
01:35:00: Am I right? This whole overly sensitive view of Christianity, turning the
01:35:06: Christian faith into a hallmark card or, no offense to hallmark, turning preachers into Mr.
01:35:15: Rogers. Yeah, society has a big effect on us.
01:35:20: Someone once said the ship in the sea is all right, the sea in the ship is all wrong, and it's an analogy that says the church in the world is all right, but the world in the church is all wrong.
01:35:39: And worldly thinking, right now, though it didn't used to be this way, is to class the biggest heresy as standing for truth and saying this is right, and other things that are not in agreement with this is error.
01:35:52: That is the heresy, which is currently the world's way of thinking, and you just tapped into it, and it's actually a loving thing to point out that you're actually believing something other than what
01:36:04: God has revealed in his word. And the problem is we're self -deceived, and scripture speaks of evil men and impostors will get worse and worse deceiving and being deceived.
01:36:18: And one of the things that people don't understand is when they look into a television program or catching something on some
01:36:26: Christian station, the man or the woman they see seems to be very sincere.
01:36:33: And they say, well, surely only charlatans are people who knowingly, knowingly are trying to convince people to give their money and do damage to people in that way.
01:36:47: But some people actually believe this strange stuff, and they sincerely believe it. And so you've got two types of people under deception, and what's interesting to me as I read that text in 2
01:36:58: Timothy 3 and then on into chapter 4, this is where I used to be, Chris. I used to think the man on the
01:37:05: TV screen, he's the perpetrator, and everybody else are victims.
01:37:11: But as I read through 2 Timothy 4, it's not the case. The people themselves want the false revelation.
01:37:20: They accumulate to themselves teachers who suit their own passions.
01:37:26: And so they're motivated by greed in their giving, and he's motivated by greed in his talking, and then a match made in hell, not heaven.
01:37:37: Yes, yes, the villagers chasing the monster with torches should also be holding
01:37:46: Dr. Frankenstein equally responsible. Because people have created the monster.
01:37:54: What are the words you have? I mean, these people wouldn't have reached the heights of financial wealth and spiritual authority, alleged spiritual authority, that they have reached without people clamoring after them and throwing money at them.
01:38:15: Yeah, I used to think it was so vicious as it is for them to be going after the elderly with their savings.
01:38:25: But the elderly with their savings motivated by greed want to hear this kind of a message.
01:38:31: If I give my $3 ,000, I'll get $300 ,000 within the next month.
01:38:36: And so they do what they do, and he does what he does, and you're absolutely right.
01:38:42: It doesn't matter that they never see it actually happening. It's just holding that care out in front of them.
01:38:50: Right, and the reasons given why it didn't happen is you failed to do the right thing, speak the right thing, and it's a system that works in their systems, you know?
01:39:03: Right, yeah. So we've touched on the diminishment of God and the exaltation of man as red lights that should go on in a false theology.
01:39:17: Wouldn't another one be the removal of man's responsibility because that would attack not only the hyper -Calvinist heresy, and of course there are many people listening who may think all three of us are hyper -Calvinists just because we're
01:39:33: Calvinists. There is a distinction to be made, but the hyper -Calvinists have a tendency to remove responsibility from man because they have a misunderstanding and twisted view of the sovereignty of God in regard to his control over all things and remove man of any accountability and remove the duty of all men to repent.
01:40:00: And then of course you just have on top of that the average Bible -believing so -called evangelical who is so twisting the precious truth of justification by faith alone that the truth of repentance disappears from the scripture.
01:40:25: So basically I guess where I'm getting at is that the Bible has things held in tension that should remain there in tension in our theology, and there's a danger of trying to remove that tension by exalting one truth and neglecting or eliminating the other.
01:40:47: Exactly right. I'm thinking of scriptures as you're talking of, I think it's Proverbs 23, buy the truth and sell it not.
01:40:57: Go for it. Be hungry for it. Pay what you need to pay to get hold of the information in the sense of get yourself a
01:41:05: Bible. Get yourself helps to understand the Bible. Don't just say I'm going to sit in my chair and if God wants to reveal it to me he can.
01:41:14: I'm thinking of New Testament verse 2 Timothy 2 I believe, Paul exhorted
01:41:19: Timothy, think over what I say for the Lord will give you understanding and everything. Ultimately it is
01:41:25: God who opens up our minds to understand this truth, but one of the means he does, one of the means he uses in that process is our thinking.
01:41:35: Thinking through the scripture, what does it say, and I would just encourage people to as a way out of that deception or any deception is study the attributes of God.
01:41:45: If you get it right on who God is, it's far easier to stumble upon truth.
01:41:51: Well you know Paul there, I'm not sure exactly where you were quoting there, but he said repent, rebuke, exhort with long suffering and doctrine and that is what it requires.
01:42:02: So much I have to realize when I'm dealing with people, long suffering because they are slow to change and doctrine, but you know you're talking about teaching the attributes of God, you have to be careful too because one of,
01:42:14: I think to back up what Chris was just saying, I have seen in my experience that the one attribute of God that has been so exalted to the exclusion of all the others is the love of God.
01:42:27: Just like going back to the idea of trying to preserve or exalt one truth by eliminating or blurring the other, in Romans 9 where Paul says starting at 13, just as it is written
01:42:47: Jacob I loved but Esau I hated, he follows that up with a built in response that he foresees the natural man who,
01:43:01: I think Charles Spurgeon said the natural man is Arminian. He is later enlightened about the truths of the doctrines of grace, but Paul just foreseeing that this would be the response, what shall we say then?
01:43:17: There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be, for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom
01:43:25: I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So that it does not depend on the man who wills for the man who runs, or the man who runs but on God who has mercy for the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose
01:43:39: I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth so that he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he hardens.
01:43:53: You will say to me then why does he still find fault for who resists his will?
01:44:01: On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing modeled will not say to the molder why did you make me like this, will it?
01:44:11: Or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
01:44:20: And he goes on from there describing the differences between vessels of destruction and vessels of mercy but the point is that it's amazing that how many people when they hear about the doctrines of grace or reform theology they quote
01:44:36: Paul nearly exactly in Paul's foreseen disagreement or foreseen attempt at a rebuttal to what he's teaching.
01:44:50: Yeah, they're in agreement with the objection. Yes, yes, yes, and it's amazing how closely they will often unconsciously quote that.
01:44:58: Well that's what they're doing. Right. Yeah, as I'm listening to you I can imagine many people saying
01:45:04: I wish you wouldn't read that particular chapter, I prefer John chapter 3 or I prefer a different text, why does he go there?
01:45:15: And what you and I would say I think in response is we've got to believe what God has revealed and the
01:45:21: God who has revealed himself is the God who has inspired
01:45:27: John chapter 3 and Romans chapter 9 and he stands behind that and the way
01:45:32: I put it is that God is not a buffet line of options. You know at a buffet you can say you know what
01:45:38: I'll have some of the cheese and the chicken but I don't think I'll have steak today and there's no police saying hey you haven't put any carrots on your plate.
01:45:47: You know we can get by in a restaurant at a buffet without any incriminations because we didn't have everything available but we tend to do that in our thinking to say
01:45:57: I'll take the love of God and I'll have some of that on my plate and the mercy of God but I'm not interested in this sovereign
01:46:04: God of Romans 9 and I don't think, that doesn't sit well with me. The problem with that is you end up with an idol that isn't actually in existence.
01:46:13: Right, right. Yeah and people as I was saying before do the same thing with the doctrine of repentance and so on.
01:46:25: Like even going back to the Apostle Paul again in Romans 6 starting at 14, for sin shall no longer be your master because you are not under the law but under grace.
01:46:38: What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means.
01:46:43: Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one you obey whether you are slaves to sin which leads to death or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
01:46:58: But thanks be to God that though you used to be slaves to sin you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
01:47:09: You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. So people, one of the signs that you're in danger is if you are eliminating completely a tension that exists in the
01:47:22: Bible. Very good, very true. And what would you say would be another red light that should go on with someone not only when they're observing somebody else when they're listening to a teacher on the radio or television or reading some teacher or just to recognize what they themselves believe what would be a red light, another red light about the fact that they have delved into error unconsciously?
01:47:50: I think when they just subconsciously accept everything that's thrown at them and they're not prepared to do their own thinking and they hear what they hear and they just simply say well it must be true and there's no filter.
01:48:08: We need to be very suspicious of that which we're hearing even from the best of us.
01:48:15: There are some people that I have come to trust in terms of teachers in the body of Christ but even so there should always be a filter in place to say if they go off I don't want to go with them.
01:48:27: Jesus made it clear that deception is going to be a hallmark of the last days. Many false prophets will arise who will deceive many.
01:48:37: And one of the things I think is a safeguard is to embrace the teachers that God has put in the body of Christ I'm talking about through the centuries now rather than thinking that church history started in 1950 or so with Billy Graham remembering that God has gifted men of God through the ages who are gifts to us and they've been laboring over the scriptures for their lifetime and we impoverish ourselves if we think it starts with myself and Jesus in the woods so to speak
01:49:14: God open up your truth to me but we're not listening I think again it's a Spurgeon quote if I can put my hands on it here it is it seems odd that certain men who talk so much of what the
01:49:27: Holy Spirit reveals to themselves should think so little of what is revealed to others and we need to be humble and you started with that in the program of humbling ourselves and saying
01:49:38: God I'm not the only one on planet earth that you've revealed your truth to and it's actually a form of theological snobbery to think
01:49:48: God's starting with my generation fresh and me in particular that's actually an arrogance that is it actually strikes against the
01:49:59: Holy Spirit's work through the ages in church history would you think that another red light should be if a teacher that you are following or reading or listening to either has too wide a view of the gates of heaven or too narrow a view of the gates of heaven
01:50:25: I mean the scriptures do say narrow is the way but some people act as if there's 30 people maybe at most going in through the gates yeah of course they're one of them yes right
01:50:38: I know of individuals I'm not going to mention the name of an individual but I know of one pastor who said that he does not know of another church anywhere in the
01:50:53: United States that he could comfortably call a true church he wouldn't say that they're all lost but he comes very close to concluding that and this is a man who's not even in the cult this is a man who is in a conservative fundamentalist type of a background but that's scary obviously the larger problem today is the larger gate that has or the and believe me
01:51:25: I'm not giving any kudos to Donald Trump here because I do despise his candidacy
01:51:31: I've made that very clear but you know there are the
01:51:37: Christians that want no walls they don't they want they're a pair away from being universalists it seems that the only people going to hell are
01:51:50: Hitler, Manson and other people who are you know monstrosities of humanity the worst examples that the average mind can conceive of but that's an exaggeration of course people are very often wanting to be kinder and gentler than the apostle
01:52:10: Paul or dare I say it even God yeah it's interesting that hell has never been a popular subject and the one who told us the most about it was
01:52:22: Jesus Christ himself it's as if God didn't entrust the greatest revelation on hell to even
01:52:28: Paul or John or Peter because we would just react and say oh that's just Paul that's just Peter off on a tangent but we actually learn the most about hell from the lips of Jesus and I think there's a reason for that God is very wise and in warning us from the lips of Jesus there's a real hell to shine and there's a heaven to gain with Christ there's endless hope without him there's a real hopeless end and so the balance of scripture is there's going to be a whole lot of people in heaven who we thought wouldn't be there and a lot of people that we thought would be there but scripture says the number is so vast no man can number them and yet it is a narrow way and so holding those two truths in balance is difficult for us but we need to do so because the
01:53:17: Bible teaches both of those things there's going to be a lot of people in heaven vast number but it's still a narrow way and the way is
01:53:24: Jesus Christ his person and his work allowing and trusting in what he's done and every other gospel that would put man in the picture to say you contribute this or that or even a little thing is actually a false gospel it's
01:53:39: Christ who saves you know really we really I can't emphasize enough that since our subject is error and coming out of it how much we have to be familiar with the real
01:53:55: I used to when I would listen to Hagen and Copeland when they would quote a scripture
01:54:02: I would underline that that verse in my Bible in blue so that as I was reading through these verses would jump out at me but then as I was just reading the
01:54:11: Bible cursory reading and I'd see those blue lines suddenly they didn't seem quite to be saying what they were saying they didn't jump out at me and I'm like wait a minute in the context it doesn't really seem to be saying what
01:54:23: I thought it was saying and you know when you start to see things in the larger picture the truth will drive out for people who we already mentioned those people are not the slightest bit interested in truth but for those who are interested in truth the truth will drive out the error so true
01:54:42: I absolutely just want to underline what you just said I have a picture in my mind of an abandoned warehouse that has had no electricity for decades and there's all kinds of crazy stuff in there but it's all under the cover of darkness and you think ok if I'm going to see light in that place
01:55:04: I've got to get a vacuum cleaner and vacuum out the darkness because it's been dark for so long but actually as the scripture says the entrance of his word gives light and one flash of light from the
01:55:18: Holy Spirit can drive out that darkness and change an entire family whether they've been involved in Mormonism or Roman Catholicism or word of faith as we've been talking about all of these deceptions it's one word from God can actually change an entire family and bring an amazing conversion and that's the power of God and that's why we pray to a
01:55:46: God who can do that it's the light of God's word and the full counsel of God not just a verse here and a verse there but I just encourage people to be reading the
01:55:56: Bible and absorbing all that it says the God who reigns and rules or accomplishes that's the
01:56:03: God we have to deal with and one of my favorite quotes also you have to have a love for truth because on Facebook my favorite quote is
01:56:13: Pascal truth is so what is it falsehood? truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that unless we love the truth we cannot know it and there is truth a lot of truth in the adage the best of men are but men at best and we all or at least most of us have a tendency to be hero worshipers
01:56:40: I brought this up the other day but I can remember during an argument with a friend and brother in Christ who disagreed with me on some theological issue he said to me you worship at a statue of James R.
01:56:54: White he said to me and I had to is there one of them around? well if you haven't been in the kitchen yet but I had to retort to that person there is a difference between veneration and worship but anyway that's just a joke but with the
01:57:09: Roman Catholic answer that's right but we have to be even when we are looking up to as heroes
01:57:20: I know that some Christians object to the word hero I don't I think there is nothing wrong with that I think it's very good and healthy to have good heroes but if you go to the point of idolizing them that's the danger we have to look upon our heroes both our living pastors and living leaders as well as those who have been in heaven for centuries that we uphold as our heroes of the faith we have to be very careful not to make idols of them and we who are theologically reformed are no less guilty of doing that than other men are if you could comment on the danger of that so true if they go off we go off over the hill with them and the best teachers are those that say believe it because you see this in the bible not because I'm telling you and that's a good pastor to be under everyone needs a shepherd for their soul and the good shepherd is someone who points you to the greatest shepherd and says follow him follow me as I follow
01:58:24: Christ where I go from this word you go with the word not with me now I guess a good red light would be if this hero whether it's a living or a dead hero or a hero in heaven would be a better way to put it a red light would be is if you are never willing to be in any way shape or form critical of that person and to research the scriptures to test anything they're saying as Paul commended the
01:58:51: Bereans for obviously there are certain heroes of ours where it may be difficult to find something that we disagree with them on but but if a red light would be at least if there was nothing that you disagreed with that person on at all and if you've never even bothered to check the scriptures on certain issues where you're just taking their teaching at face value and readily accepting it because you agree with them on other things
01:59:21: I mean isn't that a red light that should go on? Absolutely and you picked on Paul with the
01:59:28: Bereans and it tells us that they receive the things with eagerness that Paul was saying but then check them daily in the scriptures to see if they were so and by the way we're out of time actually
01:59:41: I didn't even realize it and your website is kingschurchaz .com I want everybody to always remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner
01:59:50: God bless and we look forward to you joining us tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron I'm sorry next