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DR. JOSEPH PIPA,
President of
Green Presbyterian Theological Seminary
on “The LORD’s DAY”
PLUS
JOHN SAMSON,
Pastor of
King’s Church, Peoria, AZ &
Former “WORD of FAITH” Preacher
on “FLEEING FROM ERROR”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host.
Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 18th day of March 2016 and it's so great to have back on the program someone who hasn't been with us for a number of years, but I remember fondly not only meeting him in person and hearing him preach at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York a number of years ago when he was a visiting speaker, but also having interviewed him on the old Iron Sharpens Iron radio program broadcasting out of Long Island in those days.
But it's so great to have back on the program Dr. Joey Piper, president of the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina. He's also the author of a number of books including Root and Branch, William Perkins and the Development of Puritan Preaching, the Westminster Confession of Faith Study Book, a study guide for churches, Galatians, God's Proclamation of Liberty, and the topic where they're going to be discussing today, the Lord's Day.
If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com, that's c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron, I'm sorry, not for the very first time, I should say for the very first time on the all new Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Joey Piper.
Thank you Chris, it is great to be.
Back with you. I'm sorry we've missed a couple of opportunities. Amen, and I want to also introduce.
You to my co-host today, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Greetings. Hello Buzz. And I am outnumbered again today with two Presbyterians and one Reformed Baptist on the program. Yeah, I know, and it made you nervous, look how long it took you to contradict yourself today.
And before we even go into the subject at hand, the Lord's Day, please give our listeners who are unfamiliar with Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary a summary of what this school is, the history behind it,.
And what you offer. Thank you for the opportunity. A couple of purposes, let me back up first. Presbyterian, as Buzz and I define it, are Presbyterians of the old school that believe the Bible is the Word of God and salvation through Christ alone, and historically have held with delight to the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms, which is one of the reasons this seminary was started in 1987.
A number of men in the Greenville area saw a need for a conservative Presbyterian seminary that would emphasize and hold to the West. The second reason was to have a seminary that really was devoted to preparing men for the pastoral ministry.
That's our current goal in life, and so our main degree is the Divinity Degree, and I describe us as a trans-denominational conservative Presbyterian seminary. But we do have, and as to the years, a number of excellent reformed Baptist students.
The seminary started in 1987, so we're getting close to 30 years. January of 1998 as the first president, so I'm now into starting my...
That our friend, our mutual friend, Pastor Bill Shishko is an adjunct professor there, correct?
Yes. For a number of years, Bill's been teaching our pastoral theology course, which every year the students, their evaluation and their senior debriefing, that it's one of the best courses they've had.
Unfortunately, because Bill's been doing church planning for the Orthodox Christian Church in the greater New York area, as well as developing a radio program, he's not going to be teaching the course this next year.
Well, our greetings to Bill Shishko, who actually reminded me to get you on the program as soon as possible, which is what the Lord used to jog my memory and get you on here today, and thank God.
You were willing late in the afternoon. Bill's actually tonight in Metamora, Michigan, preaching the installation service for my son-in-law, who's being installed there in.
Metamora, Michigan. Wow, that's really providential. Yes. Well, the subject of our program today is the Lord's Day, and you are fully aware, Dr. Piper, that there are a number of differing understandings of the Lord's Day, what it is, even differences of opinion on what day it is between, obviously, most Christians who observe the Lord's Day on the first day of the week, Sunday, but there are other groups, most famous, the Seventh-day Adventists, but even groups that are considered more within the pale of evangelicalism, like Seventh-day Baptists and even some evangelical messianic works that choose to worship on a Saturday, some by actual theological conviction that that is to be the day we gather as God's people to worship because they believe it is the Sabbath.
That isn't the focus of our program, so I don't want to derail the program today, but I know that you are a Sunday-Sabbath worshiper, if you will.
Yes. And we believe that Sunday is the Lord's Day, is the Christian Sabbath.
Yes. And why is it that you wrote this book, The Lord's Day, when there have been other books available in print on the subject? You wrote this quite a while ago, I believe, right?
And actually, at the time, anything, I guess, Walt Chantry's book was in print at that time, but there had not been a lot of foundation. So the first, beginning with Isaiah 58 coordinates, and then we're in your circle, and then I go to the New Testament and deal with Christ's teaching, then the passage in Colossians on Hebrews with the change of day, and that Sabbath.
Sabbath solved. I begin to develop the purposes of the Sabbath, the first one, then being wrapped in. So I deal with the Sabbath, hands-on way to approach it.
Great. And there is obviously even differences of opinion, there are differences of opinion, I should say, among even Reformed people, even people theologically Reformed who view the first day of the week as the Lord's Day, and in addition to the Lord's Day, even the Sabbath, the New Testament, or Christian Sabbath, but they disagree on how one is to rightly observe that day.
They will say a lot of that is due to the fact that the New Testament, although very detailed in the Old Testament on what is to be done and not to be done on Sunday, the Lord's Day, the Sabbath, I'm sorry, obviously in the Old Testament it was Saturday, and there's a lot of information, prohibitions and commands of what must take place on the Sabbath day in the Old Testament, but it seems that in the New Testament the information that we have isn't as fully detailed.
If you could give us how you overcome that what seems to be lack of thorough detail on.
That. There's a couple of things there. The first is we have to distinguish in the Old Testament which part of the laws are ceremonial laws. Those would be laws that were not a reflection of God's character, but a revelation of his will, for example, not to eat, even the laws of marriage, so then and later God, so the food laws of the Old Testament, ceremonial laws, sacrificial laws, these were laws that govern the church and God's people at specific periods of time.
The moral law is an expression of his will and how his image barely relates to him and to one another. So, for example, the fourth commandment, the Old Testament says, is a perpetual moral positive law.
The Old Testament means it is to govern the church throughout the expression of God's moral character and how we are to relate to him and worship him. Certain things about it, of God's will, typically would have been the day, so the commandment is the seventh day and in the sacrifices of the Old Testament, I mean the festival of fulfillment, one day and seven is a moral fact that one day belongs to God.
It was the seventh day, so there's a great deal of material in the Old Testament that, of course, doesn't apply, but there's also a great deal of material that meets himself. It's one Bible, it's not two Bibles, and so the moral revelation of God's will in any number of areas, I mean work and robbery and all those things are not explicitly repeated in the detail they are in the Old Testament because the New Testament writers recognize the moral validity of those things.
So, in the fourth commandment, in places like Isaiah 58, 13, and 14, we have very clear injunctions of what God expects of us. Those injunctions are summarized in the confession of the West to these public and private worship.
What's left to conscience of each individual now in this particular deed, the thing I'm doing within the parameters of those guidelines. It's not a violation of the Sabbath, as some people try to suggest, but rather the deed of mercy and necessity.
If I'm going to keep the Sabbath coming for the next week, not worn out, then I have taken that better at night. I have a friend in Houston, an elder, who used to go out and run around the block a couple times on Sunday afternoons.
The block actually falls down. Do these activities help me?
Now, in Isaiah 58, 13, the actual text says, If because of the Sabbath you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and honor it, desiring from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure, and speaking your own word.
The phrase that I'm highlighting here is calling the Sabbath a delight. There are people that would look upon any type of Sabbatarian restriction or any view of the Lord's day that is filled with prohibitions.
They would say that is robbing the delight from the day. They look upon Christians who are really hammering down on keeping that day apart in many ways as being, basically, cosmic killjoys,.
For the lack of a better term. I offer two things in answer to that. The first is, I said this morning in Psalm 37, that wonderful statement, to God and His will, happiness. Take away from the delight of my marriage, to my needs, and that she's not to engage.
Anybody say that takes away from the delight of marriage? No, it creates delight in marriage. It protects marriage. That's an excellent point. And so, people have a wrong view of God's law. In fact, the chapter I have in the book on the fourth commandment, what God does with the poor, is to clear the deck.
So, I'm devoted to these greater delights that we don't have that same kind of record Christian responsibilities. We do have a listener in Cumberland County,.
Pennsylvania, BB, who says, I know that some of the Seventh-day Sabbatarians are very harsh in their judgment towards those who worship on Sunday. They will even call them blaspheming the Lord's day.
They will call them heretics, and they will even discount their Christianity altogether at times. Are you doing the same in reverse against those who either worship on a Saturday, and who are biblically sound otherwise, or who do not view Sunday as specifically the Sabbath, but only as the Lord's day?
Good question. We haven't really got into the day.
Anybody that can trust in Christ alone has a clear doctrine of, I regard as a Christian brother or sister, and I can have in them as a brother or a sister. For example, early on, I was a supporter of Dr. Carson.
I think he's evangelical. He's got a couple of other strange views and visions.
Of the Sabbath. I'm assuming you're talking about D .A. Carson. No, I'm talking about the presidential candidate. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Well, I know that D .A. Carson does not have a Sabbatarian view of the Lord's day.
That's why I'm... No, he doesn't. But anyway, I regard him.
As a Christian brother as well. So, you regard us in the same manner. Now, with respect to practices... I think... Paul says, and I treat you with contempt, though, that, again, the historical... Church on the Sabbath, a large piece of discussion.
But in that, what you basically find is a much different view of the law of God. Not just the poor. We have to recognize that we do have some beliefs, and we have to see where they lead. So, discussion's good.
Condemn each other, because then we can't... Now, was this the book.
That Dr. Belcher edited, or is this a different book where you contributed with the other views? Pardon me? You were talking about a book where there were three different views of the Sabbath?
Four views. A different book. A book that was done a few years ago. Okay, so this is different.
Than Dr. Belcher's book. I forget the exact title of Dr. Belcher's book, but it was on the Sabbath.
But this is a different one. Yeah, this one was... I forget who the editor was. Okay, yeah,.
I'd like to look that up myself, but... You know, I think, really, the vehemence that your listener was referring to... I've read some of the stuff before, that it seems to come from two specific camps.
One is, obviously, the Seventh-day Adventists, who consider Sunday worship the mark of the beast, and the other would be from a lot of Reformed people who think that that's... Well, you know, that was the Catholic Church that changed the day from Saturday to Sunday, and, of course, that's an unfinished part of reforming the Church, changing it back.
At least that's what I've heard on a few occasions.
Right, which is quite a mistake. I do deal with that in the book, both in the ex-Jesus of Colossians 2, but also... It's very interesting. The early Church, many of the Church Fathers would have, in practice, been Sabbatarians.
Many of them avoided the term because of the conflict with Judaism. But at the end of the day, an excellent republication of us has done it. This was the classic work. It's readily available now, and it's quite readable.
I encourage you to read my book first. This will be an in-depth discussion.
Well, before we go into... I'd like you to get into a little bit about why you believe Sunday is the Lord's Day. In other words, why you believe the New Covenant has a different day than the Old Covenant, after we come back from these messages.
And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA.
Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Joey Piper and the observance of the Lord's Day.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arms, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Joey Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina. We're talking about his book, The Lord's Day, and the subject, The Lord's Day, in general, or the observance of The Lord's Day.
My co-host in studio with me is the Rev. Buzz Taylor, and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarmsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.
So going back to the great divide on the Sabbath question between those who are Seventh-day observers and those who are Sunday or First-day observers, and there are not only Seventh-day Adventists adhering to the Seventh-day, but there are Messianic groups and Seventh-day Baptists, some of the oldest still open and operating congregations in the United States, believe it or not, are from the Seventh-day Baptist denomination, going back to the 1600s, some of them, and found an interesting story about the great Reformed Baptist theologian and pastor John Gill, who had a great friendship with a British Seventh-day Baptist named Samuel Stennett, who also wrote a number of hymns, some of which are in all of our hymnals, and they used to swap pulpits, even though both of them had a strong view about what day the Sabbath day was, John Gill believing in First-day observance and Samuel Stennett believing in Seventh-day observance, and Samuel Stennett, the Seventh-day Baptist, actually was one of the men who preached John Gill's funeral service.
But even though that division exists, there is some camaraderie and there's some friendship and brotherhood extended, but everyone seems to think that it is important, it's not just an insequential, trivial thing, but if you could tell us why, just a number of reasons why you believe the day was changed when the New Covenant.
Came into fruition. Okay, before doing so, I just want feedback on your commercial, thanks a lot. Okay. I'm a major proponent and advocate of... Amen, well I think I have my.
Next topic for your guest on my, being a guest on my program. That would be, that would be good.
Yes, yes. I can get in deep, deep yogurt, but the long time I didn't go to the... The only thing I.
Don't like about the 1995 is all the time in my preaching I said, when you see the word therefore, see what it's there for, and then they took the word therefore out. Kind of messed up my sermons,.
You know? It does, yeah. Which is kind of the negative. There, festivals, new things together as Leviticus chapter 20, but he was not doing away with, actually goes back to the high bed of that feast, and you'll find that some of the gospel writers, I think John, for example, will refer to this fact.
Picking up on the idea that this day now is the day that has replaced the church met on the first day of the week. It was called the Lord, as I mentioned earlier, who was in a hurry to get to, to meet with the church on the first day, making a bread, which was meeting on the first day.
We have the example of Christ. Then we come to Hebrews chapter four. Perhaps there's any book that would speak to us more clearly. It shows that we who have believed have entered the right people on the seventh day.
It shows that the rest being promised also is there, but it's the same concept, but it's two words. So they'll phrase, maybe the covenant people, here alone in this whole section uses a different word.
He's used one word for rest. It's a broader term that can talk about physical rest. It talks about spiritual rest. Let's talk about our resting in Christ and eternal rest. But now he says, because of that, that's had the absurd there, because we have this exhortation to enter into the spiritual rest, there remains then a Sabbath rest.
And I appreciate you making standard picking up then, but the word is used there. If it's used in the Old Testament, the verbal form is often used for the word needs. But for example, Exodus chapter 16, when God gave them manna, he told them that they were to collect it on the second day, that they were to keep the Sabbath.
That's the verbal form in the Greek of the word that's used here. So Paul is saying there remains a Sabbath rest or a Sabbath keeping in the New Testament. The NIV picks up the translation or interpretation that this has to do with the sinner, who enters into his rest, has rested from his works of sin, as God says that the one here is the Lord Jesus Christ.
He rested farther than the works here would be the works of Christ. And I think that the writer of the Hebrews clearly has in mind the creation of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance. But a change has taken place.
And when did Christ enter into his rest? He entered his rest on the first day of the week when he rose again from the dead. It's completed. And so it points out that what we have here is the change of day.
And that's clear in the rest of the New Testament, that because of Christ's resurrection is why the church began to worship on exegetical worship on the first day of the week from its very beginning. So for example, Justin Martyr, when we learn about his worship first day of the week.
So it really is not at all good history to say that under Constantine, under historical mistake, it's easily... And how early back do those patristic sources go that you're quoting there? Well, Justin's probably what, 150?
AD 150? So that's very.
Soon after the apostolic era. Right. Yep. And do you know if any of the wording of the patristics has a recognition that this was a universally observed practice or it wasn't any kind of.
Unique? The thing I've read is it's a universal practice, that they would admit that Jewish Christians sometimes didn't play with wealth the first day. I see. And I do want to say,.
In fairness to some of my messianic brethren who are first day observers, that we're not broad brushing here. In fact, a dear friend of mine who is now in heaven, Marty Fromm of Beth Yeshua, which is a congregation and which would be translated from the Hebrew house of Jesus or house of salvation, he was very opposed to things that smacked of Judaizing and he...
Yes. A good example of a very... dangerous of what many people refer to as messianic Judaism.
Yes. Judaism is not Jewish was the original title anyway. Yeah. So the thing about when it comes down to, I guess, nitpicking. Is it dangerous for a church that is sabbatarian in regard to the Lord's day, Sunday, the first day or the eighth day, if you will?
Is it dangerous to go overboard in the restrictions that you impose on your people that can at times even go beyond.
What the scriptures are clearly teaching? Well, I think your question answers itself. If the church goes beyond the church to teach that people ought not to pursue normal vocations, ought not to do recreation on Sunday afternoon, ought to be at two services if the church has two services, ought not to be watching television, youth groups shouldn't be doing recreation activities.
I think that's positive. Again, a lot depends on the mindset. Church is doing these things to promote the beauties of the sacrament. It's no different than the church. People don't watch X-rated movies, don't watch nudity on television.
In fact, I was reading this morning in Proverbs 5 and I've actually thought of a piece I'd like to write because that's four points out of the chapter on how to keep sexual purity. So yeah, we don't just say be sexually pure.
We say if you're going to be sexually pure, you should... So again, some churches... There have long been exceptions as far as one's job is concerned. Mercy and necessity. For instance,.
A nurse, a doctor, a police officer, things like that. They would say, of course, they are permitted.
To work on the Sabbath. In fact, it's interesting, the catechism has referred to that as except that's part of proper Sabbath keeping. If somebody calls me. And Wednesday was not designed to be six days, the church reformed churches, which were in farming areas, their second service at midnight, some of the things that would have to be done, everything is put away, Saturday, Sunday, you do nothing for the meal on the worst day.
Meaning that I'm more into it to do that. Try to back up at midnight on Sunday night and be productive on the Sabbath. Christian, as a policeman, a doctor...
Of course, to bring it to a practical level, this is something that divides even Sabbatarians. You will have people who eat at restaurants after worship services, and some will say, you can't do that, it's the Sabbath, you shouldn't be going to a restaurant.
And they will say, well, I'm not working, I'm enjoying a meal, a fellowship. And the other person will say, but you're forcing those waiters, waitresses, and the cooks to work. And the person will say, well, no, I'm not.
They're not my employees. They would be there anyway. And I'm just eating there because it is a providential thing that the restaurant is open and available and that kind of thing. Are those things, in your opinion, up to individual liberty?
Actually, Chris,.
I think the scripture speaks to, I'm going to call it recreational eating on Sunday, in two places. In the fourth commandment, when it lifts the people, it says you're a female and male servant and the soldier who stares without...
In our society, I wish I had a servant. I often think about having somebody to do things around here and to polish my shoes and stuff like that. But I don't. We do have, at a college or seminary, with the servants, notices to not just be living in the land.
And then we do a specific application of the principle in Nehemiah with, and the culture would have been similar to ours. I mean, yes, but they were trying to preserve other things in Nehemiah. So he says in verse 15 that the people were treading the wine presses and bringing sacks of burning and loading them and unloading them, and wine, grape, figs, all kinds.
And they brought them to Jerusalem. God watched them on the day that they sold food, that this would be the Gentiles, the Samaritans, or whatever. The men of Tyre were living there, who imported fish and all kinds of merchandise and sold them to the sons of Judah on the Sabbath.
And there's your parallel. So you've got a non-Christian, non-believer selling stuff to a reprimand of the nobles of Judah and sent to them, and said to them, what is this evil thing you're doing? By profaning the Sabbath day.
So by buying from the Gentiles, they did not trefor this is the same, so that our God brought, and that they should not open them until after the Sabbath. Then I stationed some of my servants at the gates so that no load would enter on the Sabbath day.
Once or twice the traders and merchants of light outside. Then I warned them and said, why do you spend the night in front of the wall? If you do so again, I will use force. From that time on, they did not come.
And so I think that answers the question of reparation of eating out on the Lord's day. I think it also lays the biblical foundation for what used to be called blue laws, that laws that prohibited any retail operations on the Lord's.
Day. So it's a very nice biblical parallel. Now the trickier things are the things that Sabbatarians of the strictest order are occasionally doing, like filling up their gas tank. Because most Sabbatarians I know do drive on the Lord's day.
And so either you're making the guy who pumps the gas sin by working that day, or you're sinning yourself because you're filling up your tank. That seems to be a trickier issue, because it could be a work of necessity.
And even the electricity in your home, using the telephone and those kinds of things.
Well, you've got two different issues there. In our culture, electricity in the home is a necessity. If there's a major storm, it'd be like the fireman or the policeman, the lineman has to go out. But even by a gap of sanity, I preach once a month right now over in Raleigh.
It's 250 miles. I drive back, I listen to sermons, I'm keeping the saddle. But I top my tank off when I get there on Saturday night. I think it's wrong to buy gas on Sunday. I think it's wrong to fly on commercial airlines on Sunday, because those are not deeds of necessity.
And so I feel you have to, the Sabbaths are supposed to shape our lives. And I used to, so I think ought to go on. I don't condemn those who do. If I get an opportunity, I mean, I don't even correct them, but I get out of court, I'll encourage them to rethink what they're doing.
But I think there's a lot of rethinking that needs to go on here. Again, it's not negativism. I passed through a small town in Mississippi with three service stations. Each one was owned by a Christian because they're trying to make gas.
Why don't you all, you want gas today?
Well, I know, Dr. Piper, that you couldn't be with us for the full two hours, but we are eagerly looking forward for you to come back, especially for your discussion on the New American Standard Bible, since they do support this program, and without them, this program may likely not exist.
And I thank them so dearly for their support of the program, but I think it is in order to pay tribute to them once again with a special program, and I would love for you to be a part of that. Well, I'd love to do that, and you have.
Fallen to them, my great appreciation. And I'd love to do that, and there are topics for discussion that I couldn't do, and I'd love to do that one as well.
And we're really a little more new town. Yes. Well, I thank you so much for your charity and your grace for being on last minute, and I just want to give our listeners, your website is gpts .edu, gpts for Greenville, Presbyterian Theological Seminary dot edu.
God bless you, brother. And you, Chris. Thank you.
Bye-bye now. All right, goodbye. Bye-bye now.
And our next guest is going to be John Sampson, who is president, not president. In his culture, he would be king, I think, but he is the pastor of the King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. He is a Reformed Baptist who is a former Word of Faith Pentecostal preacher and pastor and host of a Word of Faith television program on the TBN network, Trinity Broadcasting Network, which is an oxymoron because they allow one-nosed Pentecostals to preach on their network.
But he, by God's grace, was delivered out of that heresy, not the one-nosed Pentecostalism, but the Word of Faith heresy, and has been, by God's grace, embracing the doctrines of grace for a number of years as a Reformed Baptist.
And we are going to be talking about fleeing from error. We already had him specifically address the Word of Faith movement in the past, and you can look up that program, that interview, on the archive, the Aryan Sharpen's Iron Radio dot com.
But today we're just going to be more general in our discussion about fleeing from error, and we're going to be right back after these messages with John Sampson to discuss that. So don't go away. We're going to be right back.
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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back and as I announced earlier.
We are very honored to have as our second guest today someone who has left the beautiful and radiant realms of glory in heaven to come here to the planet earth. Charles Haddon Spurgeon is joining us for the second hour.
And I'm kidding because many people may not realize that my second guest John Sampson was the voice of Charles Haddon Spurgeon in the ad that you just heard for Solid Ground Christian Books. But I love that quote that I found for you to read there brother.
But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back. John Sampson pastor of King's Church in.
Peoria Arizona to Iron Sharpens Iron. Thanks Chris. It's always a delight to be with you.
And co-hosting with me. I don't believe he has ever been my co-host when you have been on in the past as a guest but my co-host for the last several weeks has been the Reverend Buzz Taylor.
And so greet John Sampson. John good to meet you. Good to meet you too. It's good to hear your voice.
As well. And today Chris you're outnumbered again because we've both got word of faith. Backgrounds.
So that's right. I didn't. Well actually I didn't know. You were word of faith. Background. Oh yeah.
I've spent a little bit well I'll explain more about that later I'm sure. Oh wow well I knew that.
My my co-host Buzz Taylor he has just to give keep our our guests up to speed. He was raised in an Episcopal home but became a Fundamentals Baptist went to Bob Jones University and then eventually became charismatic and Pentecostal.
I knew that and then he was involved with the Church of God Peoria Illinois or Philly Ohio that's right Philly Ohio and then became Presbyterian which he still is to this day where I'm working on him leaping over the baby font and becoming Reformed Baptist but I'll be it unsuccessfully.
But yeah I didn't this all the time I've known.
You I did not know that you were. Well yeah it was part of it. It was very short-lived and I never really got my feet totally wet in it. It's about time you get your whole self wet in the real baptismal tank.
Actually you did. You were. I was a Baptist for a while so yes I.
I've got it all different ways so I must be safe. But Pastor John Sampson you are a very wise choice to speak on fleeing from error because of your own background having once been enslaved into the dark in the darkness of of the word of faith heresy.
And before we go into a broader discussion on fleeing from error why don't you let our listeners who may be unfamiliar with that. They may have heard of the personalities involved in that but they may not actually be very familiar with the term what it means.
And I do have listeners by the way on occasion that are not even Christian who are hearing these things for the first time. So why don't you explain to our.
Is all about it's really the idea that it's actually based on part of a verse in Romans 10 which speaks of the word of faith so it's picked up from the bible. But it's the idea that with the words that we speak we can create our set of circumstances to our liking.
That God in the garden gave man dominion handed man the keys so to speak the keys of a car and then man crashed the car. But he still has this thing called dominion over everything and he can handle the weather if he'll only just speak the right words.
There's a verse in Proverbs that says death and life are in the power of the tongue and whereas we limit it to ships everybody knows that words can be really defining and can cause both life and death in the sense of relationships.
Many would want to take back many of the words we've said over the years to our loved ones and they really have negative or positive impact. Where the word of faith goes is to say those words should be taken literally or literalistically to say that we speak death into our life physical death by saying just words like I'm dying to see you or that tickled me to death and the bondage the real bondage involved in that so that at a funeral with word of faith people involved.
Everyone's wondering what words were spoken that caused the death of a loved one. Well you know.
Something I didn't even realize after even doing programs with you already on that issue and hearing other people refute the word of faith heresy. I didn't even know that it went that far. I just that's just insanity.
Yes I mean that's. And really if you take that analogy of God giving.
Uh man the keys like a father would a youngster who turns 18 gives him the car keys and says it's your car. Now really the the idea that God's on the outside looking in he's he's now given man the authority on the earth.
And Adam in the word of faith teaching was the god with a small g of this world and by submitting to the devil in the garden satan became the god of this world and therefore reigns. And we empower him when we speak words in line with his mode of operation which is to kill steal destroy nothing we've let.
Wow yeah well uh yeah this is uh this is really.
Crazy stuff now. Yeah um it is it is uh amazing how when you're trying to be instructive to someone uh trying to correct them about something you believe is an error about them. And this even goes with the fingers pointing back at ourselves.
When we are trying or someone else is trying to correct us in an error it can be a very uh maddening infuriating uh situation. Our pride raises its ugly head and i've never seen it happen. Uh well maybe this is an exaggeration but it seems that i haven't seen this happen amongst bible believing christians.
And i'm including myself in this until donald trump ran for president of the united states. I mean uh the vitriol the the fury the the. Um it's just it just is very troubling. And i'm talking about my own also a maddening frustration with people that i think are just so totally wrong on their their support their their giddy excited support enthusiastic support of donald trump.
It's just beyond my imagination. You know why. Even from people who are theologically in in sync with me uh and and of course i in turn in seeking to correct something that i believe is an error i have unfortunately had to make a public apology on facebook because i got nasty with some people to an extreme i believe and overstepped the bounds of christian conduct.
I didn't use vulgarity or profanity but i i just think i went too far and maybe not even maybe i came across to some people as being prideful and arrogant and being guilty of the very things that i think donald trump uh embodies his personality but uh that all saying all that it is a very difficult thing to correct someone in error unless they've already been softened by the holy spirit or something.
If.
You could just address that issue. I think that's absolutely key. There's very very few conversations that i've had that have resulted in someone saying absolutely i'm going to study that i'm going to look into that.
Most people are very defensive uh that held on to their belief for a very long time and they believe they've got valid reasons for so ago maybe 10 days ago i was about to set out home before i did all the buttons on my shirt were in the wrong place and it looked very very hard.
And it would be strange as i walked into various places them looking at me and thinking that that's pastor john he looks like uh he can't handle his life. What happened was uh i looked at the button i put the wrong.
Yes and it was it was wrong all the way down and um things like the sink and very good analogy. Yeah well i lived it. Thankfully i stopped the problem before i walked out the door but but uh yeah it's it's so easy to see it in others and so hard to see it in ourselves.
And um i remember a statement i heard of one theologian that only uh well he said the greatest theologian only gets 80 percent of his theology. Right. And i i still don't know if that's a valid percentage but i understand where he's coming from in that in that none of us have a perfect understanding of scripture.
Um we there's things we're absolutely sure of. And there's things that i think we need to be open to the holy spirit just as you said in your question to say god if i'm wrong would you show me. But um the idea of a bible verse that says get to his 80 but i i like the thinking that says god.
I know i have traditions i don't know where they are. That's why they're blind to me. We all have our blind spots. Would you lead me. Would you guide me. And then i would point people to proverbs 2 which is something i've made a prayer for many years about god.
Open up my heart show me uh incline your ear. And it goes on and on for four verses about the diligent heart of the student it says then you'll understand the fear and find the knowledge of god. And so many are not willing to allow uh god to shape their thinking.
Because why would they they already know the truth they think well we have on top of that too.
The pressure of uh people that are very entrenched in their denominations and they know hey if i change i'm going to lose my home my job everything you know. Yeah well that's if they're a pastor i.
Right. Yes yes. It's very difficult. They can trace that theology to john the presbyterian.
Well yeah i'm gonna first have reverend buzz give you a little background on what different uh theological uh systems he was embracing that were an error and uh how he came out of it. And then uh perhaps john you could comment on what buzz has to say.
Well my background was a little bit.
Different because well uh as he mentioned i did graduate from bob jones university and that did do something very wonderful for me as we were talking to a guest a few weeks ago chris remember bill shishko.
Yeah that it drove us to the word it drove us to the word you know and uh didn't matter which direction i went theologically i kept going back to the word. So first of all uh i have to say that uh when when we went as a family we went to charismatic it was because of a couple things.
First of all uh i was in the process of getting a left foot of fellowship from a baptist church a baptist pastorate and um as uh it was the charismatics that had reached out to us and and you know it was a difficult time in life reached out to you with lifted arms and grocery bags and other things too.
Yes. Yes but uh the grocery bags really but i also have to admit that the fellow that that that was sort of mentoring us into it uh knew certain things not to let me hear. Okay uh because he knew as a baptist that you know there were things that would have turned me off right away and uh he played a lot of uh ken copeland and kenneth hagen tapes for me and stuff and uh but he knew which ones not to let me hear as well as i found out the rest of the story later on.
But uh i was never even a very good charismatic because i never came to the point of believing that the baptism of the holy spirit was a second work of grace and that tongues was for everybody you know.
So i had some reservations anyway. But the word of faith movement my view of it as a charismatic uh for the very short time that i was accepting of it it just seemed to me like you know we all believe the bible but they really believe it to where it works.
You know when you see all these wonderful stories about uh people being healed and you know what do you say. Of course i found out later on i i was uh not really seeing a lot. I was hearing a lot and i wasn't seeing the the lives backing up the professions i was hearing and uh too many of the sicknesses people were being healed of were things that couldn't be proven.
I never saw a leg grow you know that kind of stuff and i know some people have but i've seen the trick how you do it too so you know but so i never really was that involved with it. So it didn't it wasn't that hard to get me out of it.
And when i heard um actually i i think it was the bible handsome man that i was listening to once when i was driving a truck uh i heard him talking about a particular woman in the ministry talking to her wallet and i realized this is you know this is what they believe.
You know if i talk to my wall and say you're so fat you've never been so fat in your life my wallet keeps saying feed me yeah that's kind of what mine says too mine talks to me. But you know uh i just couldn't you've got to aim.
Well when you do that because.
If you if you say those words and you miss the wallet you could hit someone's stomach you know.
Yeah so it was it was easy for me to come out because i never got fully into it and again because it was and uh i really came out of all of that um over a period of time as i was growing.
More and more in the reformed faith. Now what was what was it that the lord providentially used in your life to start to draw you out of error even when it comes to. And uh please forgive me my arminian listeners i'm not trying to beat you up today but i well i do believe that's an error of.
Theology. And when i heard things like kenneth copeland saying uh that you know uh god lives on another planet like earth you know uh so it's from his own mouth oh his own mouth stretching my my oh yes i just they were like are you.
Are you actually saying this straight face. I mean.
So so in other words it was not an outside source it was somebody from within your i was hearing.
Things that i just could not accept as far as outside sources. Uh i started studying bible prophecy and um i realized very early on that everything i had been taught about it was wrong. And uh but a lot of the uh teachers that i was reading a lot of the books i was reading on prophecy were written by reformed people and i finally decided at one point i better start looking.
More into this reform stuff. Yes. So uh john it seems that um that at least in buzz's case immediately we have uh a biblically trained mind perhaps even from bob jones university which uh back then was far from being reformed but at least had some strong adherence to core truths of of the scripture and the christian faith where buzz seemed to be recognized seemed to be recognizing an erroneous teaching because of the exaltation of man and the diminishment of god and are those two key things that should be litmus tests when it comes to our examining ourselves.
To see if we're in error. Absolutely. And um what. What i would do as i read certain statements of some of the more prominent people in the movement was simply to say well i'm glad i don't believe that.
And the problem with the word of faith is there's no sense. Well there's many problems but one of them is there's no centralized headquarters like the vatican or the lds um apostle. And so you don't have to sign on the line to say i believe everything kenneth copeland ever said.
Right over in england. Um you can survive in the word of faith without mr copeland or hagen. You can never go to denmark and visit copenhagen.
Yeah okay.
So you know we're over in england. There was there was a particular man called colin urquhart who's a very prominent author. He's still alive and he was a church of england vicar who experienced what he called the infilling of the holy spirit and i would class him as part of the word of faith movement in england.
If you read his writings he's very orthodox on the deity of christ the humanity of christ. There's none of the crazy stuff about what copeland would say happened between the cross and the resurrection.
And so yeah there's there's there's very in other very orthodox people involved in it. What i would come to see is that i embraced an over-realized eschatology which is two two big words that sound like together.
They're really. The idea is jesus went to the cross for sin for sickness for all of our ailments. And i believe he actually did. Because i believe in heaven there will be no sickness or disease or i believe he's also lord and sovereign over when that occurs in the believer's life.
And that was the thing that was missing. There was no uh acknowledgement of the sovereignty of god. In fact there was lip service made. He is sovereign but in his sovereignty he's given man dominion.
That's how it would have been expressed. Excellent. Well i think that's a good uh point to go to a break and pick up when we return. If you'd like to join us on the air or the question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris arnzen at gmail .com. And please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the usa. And uh please uh only remain anonymous if it's a personal private matter.
And in fact i urge you to remain anonymous if you're talking about a church where you are a member or something of that nature and you're feeling uncomfortable with the theology or doctrine and whatnot.
But anyway we will be back after these messages. So don't go away. We look forward to your own questions contributing to the conversation with pastor john sampson of king's church in peoria arizona as we discuss fleeing from error.
We'll be right back paul wrote to the church at galatia for am.
I now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man. If i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ. Hi. I'm mark lucans pastor of providence baptist church.
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Solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio. Welcome back. This is chris.
Arnzen. And if you just tuned us in our guest for the second hour has been pastor john sampson of king's church in peoria arizona. And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris arnzen at gmail .com. We do have an anonymous listener who says or who asks. I want to know if pastor john thinks that the word of faith heresy is damnable.
Must it be repented of to be saved. Um i would say it depends how heavily someone buys into if you take it as just what are all of the elements. But if someone does or has i would say it is something to be repented of.
Just as uh god graciously brought me out. It was not a process that happened instantly. It took a lot of uh work um also a lot of seeking of god because when you're involved in something a long long time normally it takes a while to unlearn many things.
And i had to do that. And it was the revelation of god's sovereignty and salvation that opened the door in my understanding to uh look at the word of faith and realize if god is sovereign here he's got it he's got to be sovereign elsewhere and in fact everywhere.
So yeah to answer your question i i i think that uh you know people ask me even recently do you think you were a christian when you're involved in that. A genuine born-again christian. And now i say well my view of god hasn't changed the trinity the deity of christ the humanity of christ.
What happened on the cross. But but uh the deception was so strong that i remained in that system for much more than i should. And i have to say i don't know. I don't know but i'm just so glad he brought me out but i would just encourage the listener to every kind of pretender.
Hey i have my doubts about you now so i but uh one of the things when it comes to polemics or apologetics when or just evangelizing people uh not only this is a two-way street here that i'm talking about people have to realize that seeking to correct someone in error is not a hateful thing.
It could be done hatefully by people who are disobeying the scriptures themselves and are not reflecting the spirit of christ and so on and are not doing things through a compassion for their soul and and out of humility.
But the act in and of itself is not an act of hate. Not only must people that we are speaking to not only must they realize that we have to realize it. Because as we grow as christians we are all of us typically uh shed something that we held on to for a while and embrace something else.
Now obviously we always have to be berean to make sure we're not shedding the wrong things and embracing the wrong things. But this whole thing about hurt feelings uh this seems to be uh the 11th commandment of modern evangelicalism.
Thou shalt not hurt anyone's feelings that seems to be. That seems to be more important than wanting someone's soul to be saved from eternal damnation. And this has to go. Am i right. This this this whole overly sensitive view of christianity turning the christian faith into a hallmark card or no offense to hallmark uh turning uh.
Preachers into mr rogers. I mean if yeah society has a big effect on as someone once said the the the shift in the sea in the church is all wrong. And worldly thinking right now though it didn't used to be this way is to class the biggest heresy is standing for truth and saying this is right and other things that are not in agreement with this is error.
That is the heresy which is currently the world's way of thinking. And you just tapped into it and it's actually a loving thing to point out that uh you're actually believing something other than what god has revealed in his word.
And the problem is we're we're self-deceived and scripture speaks of evil. Television program at kc seems to be very sincere and people to give their money and do you know to people in that way. But some people actually believe this strange stuff and they sincerely believe it.
And so you've got two types of people under deception and what's interesting to me as i read that text in second timothy three and then on into chapter four is i this is where i used to be chris i used to think the man on the team of the traitor and everybody else are victims.
But as i second timothy four it's not the case the people themselves once they accumulate to themselves they're motivated by greed and he's motivated by greed in his talking and then a match made in hell.
Yes yes. The village the villagers chasing the monster uh with torches should also be holding dr frankenstein equally responsible because because people have created the monster words yeah well i mean these people wouldn't have reached the heights of financial wealth and uh spiritual authority alleged spiritual authority that they have reached without.
People clamoring after them and throwing money at them. Yeah i used to think it was so vicious as it is for for them to be going after the elderly with their savings. But the elderly with their savings motivated by greed want to hear this kind of a message.
If i give my three thousand dollars i'll get three hundred thousand within the next month. And so they do what they do. And he does what.
He does and it doesn't matter that they never see it actually happening. It's just holding that.
Care out in front of them you know right. And the reasons uh given why it didn't happen is you failed to didn't have the faith do the right thing speak the right thing and the system that works.
In their systems you know right. Yeah so we've we've we've touched on the diminishment of god and the exaltation of man as as uh red lights that should go on in a false theology. Uh wouldn't another one be the removal of man's responsibility because that would attack not only the hyper calvinist heresy.
And of course there are many people listening who may think all three of us are hyper calvinist just because we're calvinists. Yeah there is a distinction to be made. But the hyper calvinists have a tendency to remove responsibility from man because they they have a misunderstanding and twisted view of the sovereignty of god in regard to his control over all things and remove man of any accountability and remove the the duty of all men to repent.
Um and then of course you just have on top of that the average bible believing so-called evangelical who is so uh so twisting the the precious truth of justification by faith alone that the truth of repentance disappears from the scripture.
So basically i guess where i'm getting at is that the bible has things held in tension. That should be that should remain their intention in our theology. And there's a danger of trying to remove that tension by exalting one truth.
And neglecting or eliminating the other. Exactly right. Um i'm thinking of scriptures. As you're talking of i think it's proverbs 23 buy the truth and sell it not. Um go for it be hungry for it. Pay what you need to pay to get hold of the information in the sense of get yourself a bible.
Get yourself uh helps to understand the bible. Don't just say i'm going to sit in my chair. And if god wants to reveal it to me he can. I'm thinking of new testament verse 2nd timothy 2. I believe paul exhorted timothy think over what i say for the lord will give you understanding.
And everything. Ultimately it is god who opens up our minds to understand this truth. But one of the means he does uh one of the means he uses in in that process is our thinking. Thinking through the scripture what does it say.
And i would just encourage people to as a way out of that deception or any deception is study the attributes of god. If you get it right on who god is it's far easier to stumble upon truth. Yeah. Well you know.
Paul there i i'm not sure exactly where you were uh quoting there but he said repair rebuke exhort with long suffering and doctrine and that's that is what it requires so much. I have to realize when i'm dealing with people long suffering because they are slow to change and doctrine but you know you're talking about teaching the attributes of god.
You have to be careful too because one of i think to back up what chris was just saying. Uh i have seen in my experience that the one attribute of god that has been so exalted to the exclusion of all the others is the love of.
God. Yeah just just like going back to the the idea of trying to preserve or exalt one truth by eliminating or blurring the other. In romans 9 where paul says starting at 13 just as it is written. Jacob i loved but esau i hated.
He follows that up with a built-in response that he foresees the the natural man who i think charles spurgeon said the natural man is arminian he is. He is later enlightened about the truths of the doctrines of grace.
But paul's paul just foreseeing that this would be the response. What shall we say then. There is no injustice with god. Is there. May it never be. For he says to moses i will have mercy on whom i have mercy and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion.
So then it does not depend on the man who wills for the man who runs or the man who runs but on god who has mercy. But the scripture says to pharaoh for this very purpose i raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.
So then he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he hardens. You will say to me. Then why does he still find fault for who resists his will. On the contrary who are you old man who answers back to god the thing modeled will not say to the molder why did you make me like this.
Will it or does not. The potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use. And uh he goes on from there describing the differences between vessels of destruction and vessels of mercy.
But the point is that it's it's amazing that how many people when they hear about the doctrines of grace or reform theology they quote paul. Nearly exactly in paul's uh foreseen uh disagreement or the foreseen.
Attempt at a rebuttal to what he's teaching. Yeah. They're in agreement with the objection yes yes.
And it's amazing how closely they will often unconsciously quote that. Well that's what.
Right. Yeah as i'm listening to you i can imagine many people saying i wish you wouldn't read that particular chapter. I prefer john chapter three or i prefer a different text. Why does he go there. And what.
What you. And i would say i think in the sponsors we've got to believe what god has revealed. And the god who's revealed himself is the god who uh has john chapter three and romans chapter nine and he stands behind that.
And the way i put it is that god is not a buffet line of options. You know at a buffet you can say you know what i'll have some of the cheese and the chicken but i don't think i'll have steak today. And there's no police saying hey you haven't put any carrots on your plate.
Um you know we can get by in a restaurant at a buffet without any incriminations because we didn't have everything available. But we tend to do that in our thinking to say i'll take the love of god i'll have some of that on my plate and the mercy of god.
But i'm not interested in this sovereign god of romans nine. I don't think i that doesn't sit well with me. The problem with that is you end up with an idol. That isn't.
Actually in existence. Right right. Yeah. And people as i was saying before do the same thing with the doctrine of uh repentance and so on. Um uh like even going back to the apostle paul again in romans 6 starting at 14.
For sin shall no longer be your master because you are not under the law but under grace. What then shall we sin. Because we are not under the law but under grace. By no means. Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one you obey whether you are slaves to sin which leads to death or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
But thanks be to god that though you used to be slaves to sin you have become you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
So people one of the signs that you're in danger is if you are eliminating completely a tension that exists in the body. Very good. Thank you. And uh what would you say would be another red light that should go on with someone not only when they're observing somebody else when they're listening to a teacher on the radio or television or reading uh some teacher or just to recognize what they themselves believe.
What would be a red light. Another red light about the fact that they have delved into.
Error unconsciously i think when they just subconsciously accept everything that's thrown at them and they're not prepared to do their own thinking and um they hear what they hear and they just simply say well it must be true.
And there's no filter. We need to be very suspicious of that which we're hearing even from the best of us. Um there are some people that i have come to trust in terms of teachers in the body of christ.
But even so there should always be a filter in place to say if they if they go off i don't want to go with them. Jesus made it clear that deception is going to be a hallmark of the last days. Many false christs many false prophets will arise will deceive many.
And one of the things i think is a safeguard is to the teachers that god has put in the body of christ. Rather than i'm talking about through the centuries now rather than thinking that church history started in 1950 or so with billy graham and remembering that god has gifted men of god through the ages laboring over the scriptures food and and we're so to speak god open up your truth to me.
But we're not listening. I think again it's a spurging quote much of what the whole to be humble. And you started with that in the program of humbling ourselves and saying god i'm not the only one on the on planet earth that you've revealed is my generation in arrogance that is against the church history.
Would you think that another um.
Red light should be if a teacher that you are following or reading or listening to either has too wide a view of the gates of heaven or too too narrow a view of the gates of heaven. Uh i mean the scriptures do say narrow is the way.
But some people some people act as if there's 30 people maybe at most going into the in through the gates. I know of course they're one of them. Yes right. Uh i i know of individuals. Uh i'm not going to mention the name of an individual but i know of one pastor who uh said that he does not know of another church anywhere in the united states that he could comfortably call a true church.
He wouldn't say that they're all lost but he comes very close to concluding that. And this is a man who's not even in the cult. This is a man who is in a conservative fundamentalist type of a background.
But uh that that's. That's scary. Uh obviously the the the larger problem today is the larger gate that has or or the um uh and i believe me i'm not giving any kudos to donald trump here because i do despise uh his candidacy.
I've made that very clear. But uh you know there are the uh christians that want no walls. They don't. They want. They're. They're a pair away from being universalists. Uh it seems the only people going to hell are hitler manson and other people who are you know monstrosities of humanity the worst examples that the average mind can conceive of.
But that's an exaggeration. Of course. But the people are very often uh wanting to be kinder and gentler than the apostle paul. Or.
God yeah it's interesting that uh how it's never been a popular subject. And the one he told us the most about it was jesus christ himself. It's as if god didn't entrust the greatest revelation on hell to even paul or john or peter.
So because we we were just reacting to actually learn the most is very in warning us from the lips of jesus. There's a real hell to shine and there's a heaven to gain with christ. There's endless hope without him as a real hopeless end.
And so the balance of a lot of people in heaven who we thought wouldn't be there would be there. But scripture says the number is so vast no man can number them holding those two. We need to do so because the bible teaches both of those things.
There's going to be a lot of people in heaven. Vast number. But um it's still a narrow way. And the way is jesus christ and every other god. Even a little thing is actually a false gospel you know. Really um we we really i can't.
Emphasize enough that that uh since you know our subject is is error and coming out of it how much we have to uh be familiar with the real. Um you know i used to um when i would uh listen to hagan and copeland when they would quote a scripture i would underline that that verse in my bible in blue so that as i was reading through these verses would jump out at me.
But then as i was just reading the bible your cursory reading and i'd see those blue lines suddenly they didn't seem quite to be saying what they were saying. They didn't jump out at me and i'm like wait a minute uh look at in the context it doesn't really seem to be saying what i thought.
And you know when you start to see things in the larger picture uh the truth will drive out. For people who are we've already mentioned those people are not the slightest bit interested in truth. But for those who are interested in truth the truth will drive out the error.
So true i i absolutely just want to underline what you just said and i i have a picture in my mind of an abandoned warehouse that has had no electricity for decades and there's all kinds of crazy stuff in there but it's all under the cover of darkness.
And you think okay if i'm gonna see light in that place i've got to get a vacuum cleaner and vacuum out the darkness because it's been dark for so long. But actually as the scripture says the entrance of his word to our family whether they've been involved in mormonism or roman catholicism or word of faith as we've been talking about uh all of these deceptions uh it's one word from god can actually change an entire family and um bring an amazing uh conversion and and that's the power of god.
And that's why we pray to a god who can do that. It's the light of god's word and the full counsel of god. Not just a verse here and a verse there but i just encourage people to be reading the bible and absorbing all that it says.
The god who reigns and rules or accomplishes his own. That's the god.
We have to deal with. Yeah and one of my favorite quotes also uh you have to have a love for truth. Because i on facebook i my favorite quote is pascal. Uh truth is. So. What is it. Falsehood is. Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that unless we love the truth we.
Cannot know it. And uh there is truth a lot of truth in the adage the best of men are but men at best. And uh we all or at least most of us have a tendency to be hero worshippers. I brought this up the other day.
But i can remember during an argument with a friend and brother in christ who disagreed with me on some theological issue. He said to me you worship at a statue of james r white he said to me. And i had to.
Is there one of them around. Well if you haven't been in the kitchen yet. Um. But i had to retort to that person there is a difference between veneration and. But anyway that's just uh that's right. Um but uh we have to be even when we are looking up to as heroes.
I know that some christians object to the word hero. I don't. I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's very good and healthy to have good heroes. Yeah. But if you go to the point of idolizing them that's the danger we have to look upon our heroes both our living pastors and living leaders as well as those who have been in heaven for centuries that we uphold as our heroes of the faith we have to be very careful not to make idols of them.
And we who are theologically reformed are no less guilty of doing that than other men are. If you could comment on the danger.
Of that so true we if they go off we go off over the hill with them. And um the the best teachers are those that say believe it because you see this in the bible not because i'm telling you and and uh that that's a good pastor to be under every.
Everyone needs a shepherd for the soul for their soul and the good shepherd is someone who points you to the greatest shepherd and saying follow him follow me as i follow christ where i go from this word you go with the word not with me.
Now i guess a good uh red light would be if this hero whether it's a living or a dead hero or hero in heaven would be. A better way to put it uh a red light would be is if you are never willing to be in any way shape or form critical of that person and to research the scriptures to test anything they're saying as paul commended the bereans.
For uh obviously that we there are certain heroes of ours where it may be difficult to find something that we disagree with them on. But but if you if a red light would be at least if you there was nothing that you disagreed with that person on at all and if you've never even bothered to check the scriptures on certain issues where you're just taking their teaching at face value and readily accepting it because you agree with them on other.
Things i mean isn't that a red light that should go on. Absolutely. And you picked on paul with the bereans and it tells us that they receive the things with eagerness that paul was saying but then check them daily in the scriptures to see if they were so.
And by the way we're out of.
Time we're out of time. Actually i didn't even realize it. And your website is kingschurchaz .com. I want everybody to always remember that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner. God bless and we look forward to you joining us tomorrow on iron sharpens iron.
I'm sorry next monday monday on iron sharpens iron radio. Have a safe enjoyable and god-honoring weekend and lord's day.