March 18, 2016 Show with Dr. Joseph Pipa on “The Lord’s Day” PLUS John Samson on “Fleeing from Error”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host.

Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 18th day of March 2016 and it's so great to have back on the program someone who hasn't been with us for a number of years, but I remember fondly not only meeting him in person and hearing him preach at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York a number of years ago when he was a visiting speaker, but also having interviewed him on the old Iron Sharpens Iron radio program broadcasting out of Long Island in those days.

But it's so great to have back on the program Dr. Joey Piper, president of the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina. He's also the author of a number of books including Root and Branch, William Perkins and the Development of Puritan Preaching, the Westminster Confession of Faith Study Book, a study guide for churches, Galatians, God's Proclamation of Liberty, and the topic where they're going to be discussing today, the Lord's Day.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com, that's c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron, I'm sorry, not for the very first time, I should say for the very first time on the all new Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Joey Piper.

Thank you Chris, it is great to be.

Back with you. I'm sorry we've missed a couple of opportunities. Amen, and I want to also introduce.

You to my co-host today, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Greetings. Hello Buzz. And I am outnumbered again today with two Presbyterians and one Reformed Baptist on the program. Yeah, I know, and it made you nervous, look how long it took you to contradict yourself today.

Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and the Purpose of the Lord's Day Discussion

And before we even go into the subject at hand, the Lord's Day, please give our listeners who are unfamiliar with Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary a summary of what this school is, the history behind it,.

And what you offer. Thank you for the opportunity. A couple of purposes, let me back up first. Presbyterian, as Buzz and I define it, are Presbyterians of the old school that believe the Bible is the Word of God and salvation through Christ alone, and historically have held with delight to the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms, which is one of the reasons this seminary was started in 1987.

A number of men in the Greenville area saw a need for a conservative Presbyterian seminary that would emphasize and hold to the West. The second reason was to have a seminary that really was devoted to preparing men for the pastoral ministry.

That's our current goal in life, and so our main degree is the Divinity Degree, and I describe us as a trans-denominational conservative Presbyterian seminary. But we do have, and as to the years, a number of excellent reformed Baptist students.

The seminary started in 1987, so we're getting close to 30 years. January of 1998 as the first president, so I'm now into starting my...

That our friend, our mutual friend, Pastor Bill Shishko is an adjunct professor there, correct?

Yes. For a number of years, Bill's been teaching our pastoral theology course, which every year the students, their evaluation and their senior debriefing, that it's one of the best courses they've had.

Unfortunately, because Bill's been doing church planning for the Orthodox Christian Church in the greater New York area, as well as developing a radio program, he's not going to be teaching the course this next year.

Well, our greetings to Bill Shishko, who actually reminded me to get you on the program as soon as possible, which is what the Lord used to jog my memory and get you on here today, and thank God.

You were willing late in the afternoon. Bill's actually tonight in Metamora, Michigan, preaching the installation service for my son-in-law, who's being installed there in.

Metamora, Michigan. Wow, that's really providential. Yes. Well, the subject of our program today is the Lord's Day, and you are fully aware, Dr. Piper, that there are a number of differing understandings of the Lord's Day, what it is, even differences of opinion on what day it is between, obviously, most Christians who observe the Lord's Day on the first day of the week, Sunday, but there are other groups, most famous, the Seventh-day Adventists, but even groups that are considered more within the pale of evangelicalism, like Seventh-day Baptists and even some evangelical messianic works that choose to worship on a Saturday, some by actual theological conviction that that is to be the day we gather as God's people to worship because they believe it is the Sabbath.

That isn't the focus of our program, so I don't want to derail the program today, but I know that you are a Sunday-Sabbath worshiper, if you will.

Yes. And we believe that Sunday is the Lord's Day, is the Christian Sabbath.

Yes. And why is it that you wrote this book, The Lord's Day, when there have been other books available in print on the subject? You wrote this quite a while ago, I believe, right?

And actually, at the time, anything, I guess, Walt Chantry's book was in print at that time, but there had not been a lot of foundation. So the first, beginning with Isaiah 58 coordinates, and then we're in your circle, and then I go to the New Testament and deal with Christ's teaching, then the passage in Colossians on Hebrews with the change of day, and that Sabbath.

Sabbath solved. I begin to develop the purposes of the Sabbath, the first one, then being wrapped in. So I deal with the Sabbath, hands-on way to approach it.

Great. And there is obviously even differences of opinion, there are differences of opinion, I should say, among even Reformed people, even people theologically Reformed who view the first day of the week as the Lord's Day, and in addition to the Lord's Day, even the Sabbath, the New Testament, or Christian Sabbath, but they disagree on how one is to rightly observe that day.

They will say a lot of that is due to the fact that the New Testament, although very detailed in the Old Testament on what is to be done and not to be done on Sunday, the Lord's Day, the Sabbath, I'm sorry, obviously in the Old Testament it was Saturday, and there's a lot of information, prohibitions and commands of what must take place on the Sabbath day in the Old Testament, but it seems that in the New Testament the information that we have isn't as fully detailed.

If you could give us how you overcome that what seems to be lack of thorough detail on.

The Moral Law, Ceremonial Law, and Isaiah 58

That. There's a couple of things there. The first is we have to distinguish in the Old Testament which part of the laws are ceremonial laws. Those would be laws that were not a reflection of God's character, but a revelation of his will, for example, not to eat, even the laws of marriage, so then and later God, so the food laws of the Old Testament, ceremonial laws, sacrificial laws, these were laws that govern the church and God's people at specific periods of time.

The moral law is an expression of his will and how his image barely relates to him and to one another. So, for example, the fourth commandment, the Old Testament says, is a perpetual moral positive law.

The Old Testament means it is to govern the church throughout the expression of God's moral character and how we are to relate to him and worship him. Certain things about it, of God's will, typically would have been the day, so the commandment is the seventh day and in the sacrifices of the Old Testament, I mean the festival of fulfillment, one day and seven is a moral fact that one day belongs to God.

It was the seventh day, so there's a great deal of material in the Old Testament that, of course, doesn't apply, but there's also a great deal of material that meets himself. It's one Bible, it's not two Bibles, and so the moral revelation of God's will in any number of areas, I mean work and robbery and all those things are not explicitly repeated in the detail they are in the Old Testament because the New Testament writers recognize the moral validity of those things.

So, in the fourth commandment, in places like Isaiah 58, 13, and 14, we have very clear injunctions of what God expects of us. Those injunctions are summarized in the confession of the West to these public and private worship.

What's left to conscience of each individual now in this particular deed, the thing I'm doing within the parameters of those guidelines. It's not a violation of the Sabbath, as some people try to suggest, but rather the deed of mercy and necessity.

If I'm going to keep the Sabbath coming for the next week, not worn out, then I have taken that better at night. I have a friend in Houston, an elder, who used to go out and run around the block a couple times on Sunday afternoons.

The block actually falls down. Do these activities help me?

Now, in Isaiah 58, 13, the actual text says, If because of the Sabbath you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and honor it, desiring from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure, and speaking your own word.

The phrase that I'm highlighting here is calling the Sabbath a delight. There are people that would look upon any type of Sabbatarian restriction or any view of the Lord's day that is filled with prohibitions.

They would say that is robbing the delight from the day. They look upon Christians who are really hammering down on keeping that day apart in many ways as being, basically, cosmic killjoys,.

For the lack of a better term. I offer two things in answer to that. The first is, I said this morning in Psalm 37, that wonderful statement, to God and His will, happiness. Take away from the delight of my marriage, to my needs, and that she's not to engage.

Anybody say that takes away from the delight of marriage? No, it creates delight in marriage. It protects marriage. That's an excellent point. And so, people have a wrong view of God's law. In fact, the chapter I have in the book on the fourth commandment, what God does with the poor, is to clear the deck.

So, I'm devoted to these greater delights that we don't have that same kind of record Christian responsibilities. We do have a listener in Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, BB, who says, I know that some of the Seventh-day Sabbatarians are very harsh in their judgment towards those who worship on Sunday. They will even call them blaspheming the Lord's day.

They will call them heretics, and they will even discount their Christianity altogether at times. Are you doing the same in reverse against those who either worship on a Saturday, and who are biblically sound otherwise, or who do not view Sunday as specifically the Sabbath, but only as the Lord's day?

Good question. We haven't really got into the day.

Anybody that can trust in Christ alone has a clear doctrine of, I regard as a Christian brother or sister, and I can have in them as a brother or a sister. For example, early on, I was a supporter of Dr. Carson.

I think he's evangelical. He's got a couple of other strange views and visions.

Of the Sabbath. I'm assuming you're talking about D .A. Carson. No, I'm talking about the presidential candidate. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Well, I know that D .A. Carson does not have a Sabbatarian view of the Lord's day.

That's why I'm... No, he doesn't. But anyway, I regard him.

As a Christian brother as well. So, you regard us in the same manner. Now, with respect to practices... I think... Paul says, and I treat you with contempt, though, that, again, the historical... Church on the Sabbath, a large piece of discussion.

But in that, what you basically find is a much different view of the law of God. Not just the poor. We have to recognize that we do have some beliefs, and we have to see where they lead. So, discussion's good.

Condemn each other, because then we can't... Now, was this the book.

That Dr. Belcher edited, or is this a different book where you contributed with the other views? Pardon me? You were talking about a book where there were three different views of the Sabbath?

Four views. A different book. A book that was done a few years ago. Okay, so this is different.

Than Dr. Belcher's book. I forget the exact title of Dr. Belcher's book, but it was on the Sabbath.

But this is a different one. Yeah, this one was... I forget who the editor was. Okay, yeah,.

I'd like to look that up myself, but... You know, I think, really, the vehemence that your listener was referring to... I've read some of the stuff before, that it seems to come from two specific camps.

One is, obviously, the Seventh-day Adventists, who consider Sunday worship the mark of the beast, and the other would be from a lot of Reformed people who think that that's... Well, you know, that was the Catholic Church that changed the day from Saturday to Sunday, and, of course, that's an unfinished part of reforming the Church, changing it back.

At least that's what I've heard on a few occasions.

Right, which is quite a mistake. I do deal with that in the book, both in the ex-Jesus of Colossians 2, but also... It's very interesting. The early Church, many of the Church Fathers would have, in practice, been Sabbatarians.

Many of them avoided the term because of the conflict with Judaism. But at the end of the day, an excellent republication of us has done it. This was the classic work. It's readily available now, and it's quite readable.

I encourage you to read my book first. This will be an in-depth discussion.

Well, before we go into... I'd like you to get into a little bit about why you believe Sunday is the Lord's Day. In other words, why you believe the New Covenant has a different day than the Old Covenant, after we come back from these messages.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Joey Piper and the observance of the Lord's Day.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arms, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Joey Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina. We're talking about his book, The Lord's Day, and the subject, The Lord's Day, in general, or the observance of The Lord's Day.

My co-host in studio with me is the Rev. Buzz Taylor, and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarmsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

So going back to the great divide on the Sabbath question between those who are Seventh-day observers and those who are Sunday or First-day observers, and there are not only Seventh-day Adventists adhering to the Seventh-day, but there are Messianic groups and Seventh-day Baptists, some of the oldest still open and operating congregations in the United States, believe it or not, are from the Seventh-day Baptist denomination, going back to the 1600s, some of them, and found an interesting story about the great Reformed Baptist theologian and pastor John Gill, who had a great friendship with a British Seventh-day Baptist named Samuel Stennett, who also wrote a number of hymns, some of which are in all of our hymnals, and they used to swap pulpits, even though both of them had a strong view about what day the Sabbath day was, John Gill believing in First-day observance and Samuel Stennett believing in Seventh-day observance, and Samuel Stennett, the Seventh-day Baptist, actually was one of the men who preached John Gill's funeral service.

But even though that division exists, there is some camaraderie and there's some friendship and brotherhood extended, but everyone seems to think that it is important, it's not just an insequential, trivial thing, but if you could tell us why, just a number of reasons why you believe the day was changed when the New Covenant.

The Resurrection, Hebrews 4, and the First Day of the Week

Came into fruition. Okay, before doing so, I just want feedback on your commercial, thanks a lot. Okay. I'm a major proponent and advocate of... Amen, well I think I have my.

Next topic for your guest on my, being a guest on my program. That would be, that would be good.

Yes, yes. I can get in deep, deep yogurt, but the long time I didn't go to the... The only thing I.

Don't like about the 1995 is all the time in my preaching I said, when you see the word therefore, see what it's there for, and then they took the word therefore out. Kind of messed up my sermons,.

You know? It does, yeah. Which is kind of the negative. There, festivals, new things together as Leviticus chapter 20, but he was not doing away with, actually goes back to the high bed of that feast, and you'll find that some of the gospel writers, I think John, for example, will refer to this fact.

Picking up on the idea that this day now is the day that has replaced the church met on the first day of the week. It was called the Lord, as I mentioned earlier, who was in a hurry to get to, to meet with the church on the first day, making a bread, which was meeting on the first day.

We have the example of Christ. Then we come to Hebrews chapter four. Perhaps there's any book that would speak to us more clearly. It shows that we who have believed have entered the right people on the seventh day.

It shows that the rest being promised also is there, but it's the same concept, but it's two words. So they'll phrase, maybe the covenant people, here alone in this whole section uses a different word.

He's used one word for rest. It's a broader term that can talk about physical rest. It talks about spiritual rest. Let's talk about our resting in Christ and eternal rest. But now he says, because of that, that's had the absurd there, because we have this exhortation to enter into the spiritual rest, there remains then a Sabbath rest.

And I appreciate you making standard picking up then, but the word is used there. If it's used in the Old Testament, the verbal form is often used for the word needs. But for example, Exodus chapter 16, when God gave them manna, he told them that they were to collect it on the second day, that they were to keep the Sabbath.

That's the verbal form in the Greek of the word that's used here. So Paul is saying there remains a Sabbath rest or a Sabbath keeping in the New Testament. The NIV picks up the translation or interpretation that this has to do with the sinner, who enters into his rest, has rested from his works of sin, as God says that the one here is the Lord Jesus Christ.

He rested farther than the works here would be the works of Christ. And I think that the writer of the Hebrews clearly has in mind the creation of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance. But a change has taken place.

And when did Christ enter into his rest? He entered his rest on the first day of the week when he rose again from the dead. It's completed. And so it points out that what we have here is the change of day.

And that's clear in the rest of the New Testament, that because of Christ's resurrection is why the church began to worship on exegetical worship on the first day of the week from its very beginning. So for example, Justin Martyr, when we learn about his worship first day of the week.

So it really is not at all good history to say that under Constantine, under historical mistake, it's easily... And how early back do those patristic sources go that you're quoting there? Well, Justin's probably what, 150?

AD 150? So that's very.

Soon after the apostolic era. Right. Yep. And do you know if any of the wording of the patristics has a recognition that this was a universally observed practice or it wasn't any kind of.

Unique? The thing I've read is it's a universal practice, that they would admit that Jewish Christians sometimes didn't play with wealth the first day. I see. And I do want to say,.

In fairness to some of my messianic brethren who are first day observers, that we're not broad brushing here. In fact, a dear friend of mine who is now in heaven, Marty Fromm of Beth Yeshua, which is a congregation and which would be translated from the Hebrew house of Jesus or house of salvation, he was very opposed to things that smacked of Judaizing and he...

Yes. A good example of a very... dangerous of what many people refer to as messianic Judaism.

Yes. Judaism is not Jewish was the original title anyway. Yeah. So the thing about when it comes down to, I guess, nitpicking. Is it dangerous for a church that is sabbatarian in regard to the Lord's day, Sunday, the first day or the eighth day, if you will?

Is it dangerous to go overboard in the restrictions that you impose on your people that can at times even go beyond.

What the scriptures are clearly teaching? Well, I think your question answers itself. If the church goes beyond the church to teach that people ought not to pursue normal vocations, ought not to do recreation on Sunday afternoon, ought to be at two services if the church has two services, ought not to be watching television, youth groups shouldn't be doing recreation activities.

I think that's positive. Again, a lot depends on the mindset. Church is doing these things to promote the beauties of the sacrament. It's no different than the church. People don't watch X-rated movies, don't watch nudity on television.

In fact, I was reading this morning in Proverbs 5 and I've actually thought of a piece I'd like to write because that's four points out of the chapter on how to keep sexual purity. So yeah, we don't just say be sexually pure.

We say if you're going to be sexually pure, you should... So again, some churches... There have long been exceptions as far as one's job is concerned. Mercy and necessity. For instance,.

A nurse, a doctor, a police officer, things like that. They would say, of course, they are permitted.

To work on the Sabbath. In fact, it's interesting, the catechism has referred to that as except that's part of proper Sabbath keeping. If somebody calls me. And Wednesday was not designed to be six days, the church reformed churches, which were in farming areas, their second service at midnight, some of the things that would have to be done, everything is put away, Saturday, Sunday, you do nothing for the meal on the worst day.

Meaning that I'm more into it to do that. Try to back up at midnight on Sunday night and be productive on the Sabbath. Christian, as a policeman, a doctor...

Of course, to bring it to a practical level, this is something that divides even Sabbatarians. You will have people who eat at restaurants after worship services, and some will say, you can't do that, it's the Sabbath, you shouldn't be going to a restaurant.

And they will say, well, I'm not working, I'm enjoying a meal, a fellowship. And the other person will say, but you're forcing those waiters, waitresses, and the cooks to work. And the person will say, well, no, I'm not.

They're not my employees. They would be there anyway. And I'm just eating there because it is a providential thing that the restaurant is open and available and that kind of thing. Are those things, in your opinion, up to individual liberty?

Actually, Chris,.

I think the scripture speaks to, I'm going to call it recreational eating on Sunday, in two places. In the fourth commandment, when it lifts the people, it says you're a female and male servant and the soldier who stares without...

In our society, I wish I had a servant. I often think about having somebody to do things around here and to polish my shoes and stuff like that. But I don't. We do have, at a college or seminary, with the servants, notices to not just be living in the land.

And then we do a specific application of the principle in Nehemiah with, and the culture would have been similar to ours. I mean, yes, but they were trying to preserve other things in Nehemiah. So he says in verse 15 that the people were treading the wine presses and bringing sacks of burning and loading them and unloading them, and wine, grape, figs, all kinds.

And they brought them to Jerusalem. God watched them on the day that they sold food, that this would be the Gentiles, the Samaritans, or whatever. The men of Tyre were living there, who imported fish and all kinds of merchandise and sold them to the sons of Judah on the Sabbath.

And there's your parallel. So you've got a non-Christian, non-believer selling stuff to a reprimand of the nobles of Judah and sent to them, and said to them, what is this evil thing you're doing? By profaning the Sabbath day.

So by buying from the Gentiles, they did not trefor this is the same, so that our God brought, and that they should not open them until after the Sabbath. Then I stationed some of my servants at the gates so that no load would enter on the Sabbath day.

Once or twice the traders and merchants of light outside. Then I warned them and said, why do you spend the night in front of the wall? If you do so again, I will use force. From that time on, they did not come.

And so I think that answers the question of reparation of eating out on the Lord's day. I think it also lays the biblical foundation for what used to be called blue laws, that laws that prohibited any retail operations on the Lord's.

Day. So it's a very nice biblical parallel. Now the trickier things are the things that Sabbatarians of the strictest order are occasionally doing, like filling up their gas tank. Because most Sabbatarians I know do drive on the Lord's day.

And so either you're making the guy who pumps the gas sin by working that day, or you're sinning yourself because you're filling up your tank. That seems to be a trickier issue, because it could be a work of necessity.

And even the electricity in your home, using the telephone and those kinds of things.

Well, you've got two different issues there. In our culture, electricity in the home is a necessity. If there's a major storm, it'd be like the fireman or the policeman, the lineman has to go out. But even by a gap of sanity, I preach once a month right now over in Raleigh.

It's 250 miles. I drive back, I listen to sermons, I'm keeping the saddle. But I top my tank off when I get there on Saturday night. I think it's wrong to buy gas on Sunday. I think it's wrong to fly on commercial airlines on Sunday, because those are not deeds of necessity.

And so I feel you have to, the Sabbaths are supposed to shape our lives. And I used to, so I think ought to go on. I don't condemn those who do. If I get an opportunity, I mean, I don't even correct them, but I get out of court, I'll encourage them to rethink what they're doing.

But I think there's a lot of rethinking that needs to go on here. Again, it's not negativism. I passed through a small town in Mississippi with three service stations. Each one was owned by a Christian because they're trying to make gas.

Why don't you all, you want gas today?

Well, I know, Dr. Piper, that you couldn't be with us for the full two hours, but we are eagerly looking forward for you to come back, especially for your discussion on the New American Standard Bible, since they do support this program, and without them, this program may likely not exist.

And I thank them so dearly for their support of the program, but I think it is in order to pay tribute to them once again with a special program, and I would love for you to be a part of that. Well, I'd love to do that, and you have.

Fallen to them, my great appreciation. And I'd love to do that, and there are topics for discussion that I couldn't do, and I'd love to do that one as well.

And we're really a little more new town. Yes. Well, I thank you so much for your charity and your grace for being on last minute, and I just want to give our listeners, your website is gpts .edu, gpts for Greenville, Presbyterian Theological Seminary dot edu.

God bless you, brother. And you, Chris. Thank you.

Bye-bye now. All right, goodbye. Bye-bye now.

Fleeing from the Word of Faith Heresy

And our next guest is going to be John Sampson, who is president, not president. In his culture, he would be king, I think, but he is the pastor of the King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. He is a Reformed Baptist who is a former Word of Faith Pentecostal preacher and pastor and host of a Word of Faith television program on the TBN network, Trinity Broadcasting Network, which is an oxymoron because they allow one-nosed Pentecostals to preach on their network.

But he, by God's grace, was delivered out of that heresy, not the one-nosed Pentecostalism, but the Word of Faith heresy, and has been, by God's grace, embracing the doctrines of grace for a number of years as a Reformed Baptist.

And we are going to be talking about fleeing from error. We already had him specifically address the Word of Faith movement in the past, and you can look up that program, that interview, on the archive, the Aryan Sharpen's Iron Radio dot com.

But today we're just going to be more general in our discussion about fleeing from error, and we're going to be right back after these messages with John Sampson to discuss that. So don't go away. We're going to be right back.

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