TiL- Keith Foskey Interview

The Interview Topic and Guest Introduction

Welcome to the truth and love podcast tonight. We're going to talk about age. Segregated programs versus family integrated church with special guest Keith Foskey. We hope you will stick with us and join the program.

Welcome everybody. Thank you for watching the video. We really appreciate it. This is truth and love podcast. We get that from Ephesians chapter 4 verse 15. But speaking the truth in love we to grow up in all aspects into him who is the head even Christ.

That's our goal and that's our aim. We want to reach our community and we love doing it with you. So thank you for watching. Would you give us a like a share and the comments are open? So leave us a comment.

If you have a question, we'll try to answer it. If you'd like for us to pray for you, we'd love to be able to do that as well tonight. We have a special guest Keith Foskey. He is a pastor. What's the name of your church Keith?

Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida.

Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida. He is also a fellow podcaster Conversations with a Calvinist and we would encourage you to go check out Keith's podcast Conversations with a Calvinist.

He is on Facebook. He's on YouTube. He's on tik-tok and I'm sure he would appreciate your support in those endeavors as well. He's the pastor of a Family integrated church and tonight we want to have a conversation about What that looks like.

It may be foreign to some people's ears. But we want to have a conversation about that what that looks like versus The more traditional I guess you would say segregated age segregated programs that many churches have done and still do and Many have got have gained a conviction about that which has kind of led to a transition to family integration.

So.

To start off with let's let's start off with something personal which will be your your testimony. Your your salvation experience and how God saved you. Okay.

Well, I was Saved by the Lord when I was 19 years old. I grew up in church. My dad and mom were divorced when I was 6 and my stepmom brought me to church after my dad and her got married and It's the same church.

I'm still in. I've never been a member of another church. I grew up in this church. I was saved when I was 19. Continued going to the same church.

My.

September 11th, which today is September 11 September 11th happened and I was 21 years old. So two years after being saved I was asked by the elders to preach my first sermon. It was a Sunday after 9 -11.

Our pastor had been in a car accident. He couldn't preach. The elders asked me to preach and so I felt like This was what God had called me to do was to preach his word. So my salvation.

Happened.

When I was 19 and my call to ministry came a couple of years later. And I know I know you didn't really ask about my call to ministry, but that's that's I always say It's funny because I grew up in a church.

That is the same church. I'm in now but it's not the same church because by God's Word our church has gone through a major Reformation and it's because of the Word of God that God was able to take us from a very a Very liberal theologically liberal church where like when in in the 80s when I was a kid We had a pastor who didn't even believe in the virgin birth.

I mean, I mean, that's how liberal it was the Disciples of Christ Church, which if you're not familiar with that That's that's a very liberal mainline denomination and through the preaching of God's Word God has been able to take that into a fully reformed Baptist Church, and that's where we are now.

And so I just it's it's I'm so grateful to God for what he has done in In bringing about my salvation, but also in bringing about the Reformation of the church that I'm in.

How Calvinism and Family Integration Emerged Together

Cool so you. You host the conversation with the Calvinist Podcast pastor at the Family Integrated Church. Yes. It sounds like. And what you just said was that neither of those I assume neither of those positions were held and probably a bunch more of positions weren't held by that church when you were there as.

A young one. No. No, I grew up in the church and it was kind of traditional youth group, you know all those things. But again, I wasn't saved then. So when I was a teenager going to youth group and all those things going to lock-ins I remember going to a lock-in and seeing people making out in the corner, you know.

Because a lot of the people weren't saved and and things were allowed to be crazy and I'm not saying that happens at every lock-in, but I remember seeing crazy stuff when I was a teenager and. And like I said when I was 19 I came in contact with my first real atheist somebody who didn't believe in God and he challenged me.

I was working for America online. If you guys remember the company America online that I was working for America online and the guy sitting next to me didn't believe in God and he he sort of chided me for saying I believed in God and for the first time in my life I was confronted with the idea of God not existing and it took me through a time of real soul-searching and really seeking God for the first time and God saved me through that and it wasn't through the church.

It was through an atheist. So I had an atheist evangelist. They didn't even know it but he was the one who sent me to find the Lord and it was through that that God saved me.

That's fantastic. We'll have to talk about that more later. I have the same story going on only with Mormons. Yeah. Yeah, well, they'll have to talk about that later. So how did you how'd you go across your journey going from your background? to finding a or coming to a Calvinist position and Family integration.

Because I would assume that the the theological journey you took probably there was some overlap and intermingling of Arriving to those conclusions. How did you go about? Coming to those those conclusions.

Well, the first thing is in.

2004 I was in seminary. I was studying at that time I think for my master's or maybe it's I don't remember. I don't know where I was as far as my. Maybe it was I was still doing it didn't matter. I was in seminary.

I was asked to be a speaker at a At a youth camp and the youth the youth camp leader so so again not family integrated the youth camp leader was a Calvinist and he challenged me on the doctrines of grace.

First thing he asked me was what I thought about predestination. And of course I gave him the typical Answer I said, well God looked down the corridor of time he saw what I was gonna do and that's how he decided to choose me because I first chose him blah blah blah and At the end of the week and I was the speaker.

I was the preacher of the camp and At the end of the week. This guy was challenging me so much that it ended up starting a year-long journey of searching of Researching the doctrines of grace and again, my seminary was teaching me the opposite.

My seminary was a southern not the Southern Baptist seminary, but it was a it was Jacksonville Baptist Theological Seminary. So it was a seminary in Jacksonville. None of the guys were reformed. I was told that Calvinism kills churches.

I was told that Calvinism was bad. Calvin was a terrible man. What's that so bad, yeah, he killed cervidis and so all of these things led to Me researching and and and I remember when I first started becoming Confident in the doctrines of grace I began teaching and preaching those things in Sunday school and then of course in the in the pulpit because by that time I was I was I was.

I became a pastor in 2006 and Within two years the church there were people in the church that wanted to have me fired. Because I was because I was a Calvinist and a couple of people tried to have me removed and by God's grace I'm still there.

I count Tom Askell as being a man who saved my job. Because I called Tom Askell, I don't know if you know him. He's a founders ministry head. I called him because I had met him at a founders conference in 2005.

I called him and I said Tom, there's some people who want me to leave because I'm a Calvinist. I think I'm ready to resign and he said don't you dare resign? He said you stand up and fight and make them fire you so so I did.

I stood up I fought Thank You Becky. For the fans of the tick-tock videos. I appreciate I think she's talking to me. I don't know. Anyway, so So Tom Askell, like I said, I credit him for say because I would have walked away I would have.

I thought I was the one in the wrong. I thought I was doing. I thought I was offending people. So I was like I don't want to split the church. And he said no stand up for the truth and I stood up for the truth and a couple of people left but not very many the church was willing to hear what I had to preach and hear what the word had to say and from 2008 to 2010 we went through a process of Reforming by studying the scriptures and in and in the midst of that we became convinced of The doctrines of grace as a church not just as an individual but as a church and we changed our name so in 2011 we went from being Forest Christian Church, which was the name of the church when I was a kid to Sovereign Grace Family Church and that and and I was told at the time if you call yourself a family church.

You are going to be labeled family integrated. I didn't know what it meant and I said I said well, what does that mean? And they said well, that means you don't have a youth group and blah blah blah and I said Well, we don't have a youth group.

We have we we don't have children's church. So we're kind of there already and I knew enough. I I knew enough to know That yeah by taking this name family church that you know, like I said, we are kind of Making a stand on this.

But it wasn't a militant thing we weren't doing it to be, you know, like we're gonna be the family integrated place but we did have we had we had a commitment to Having our children and worship with us.

Sure. And so that was we were a family church in that regard. And so that happened in the midst of the Calvinism in the midst of the Reformation a reformation of theology. But also a reformation a reformation of family recognition or family practice was happening as well.

And the last time we had a children's church, I think was 2008 maybe it was before all the all that stuff. We haven't had children's church in a long time.

Sure.

One quick follow-up question. Do you think the the added weight of knowing that you weren't just leading yourself? Through this process, but you were guiding a church caused you to be more diligent in your studies.

I would say yes, I would also say I am by nature an Apologist. I would say Every pastor. I think there's some pastors who are by nature counselors. I think there's some pastors who are by nature expositors.

I'd like to think of myself as an expositor. But at the end of the day if you listen to my preaching I have an apologist heart. And so my desire is always to defend what I'm teaching even when I preach.

I'm always considering the antithesis. I'm considering the argument. What's the other person gonna say? Do I understand what they're saying? And so that was helpful because every time I stood in the pulpit I preached like an apologist.

I preached defending what I was saying from the text. And so I think that was helpful and that's just my nature. Was that. You know, my master's thesis was on defending the Bible and Defending the truth and so that's just my heart and I guess that that helped.

Nice.

You were talking about your your Journey into Calvinism. It made me think about mine a little bit and just a short little snippet about my Transition or journey I printed off. I don't even remember what the name of was.

But it was on one of John Piper's website design God website. And it was a really thick PDF print off on on tulip and going through tulip. And and I was actually going through that thing, you know. Highlighting it trying to work against it and you would think going through that thing the light bulb would go off.

But it wasn't going through through his you know, huge print off that he had. It was actually one verse Isaiah 42 8 is is when the light bulb went off for me where it says I am the Lord your God. I will not share my glory with another.

When I read that verse the light bulb went off for me. For Calvinism and the doctrines of grace because If there's a God I'm not him and he's not going to share his glory with anybody else that includes me.

So is my salvation is all about him. Yeah, and so I mean it just all began to make sense and fall into place. You were talking about America online. Are those the folks that that said you've got fail?

Yes.

Yeah, we sent out hundreds of thousands of CDs and you got 90 hours of internet for free in a month I think. And it was yeah, that was us. We. I was a AOL Saves representative for for a year. Yeah.

Why Youth Groups and Children's Ministries Are a Problem

Let's move on the list that I have here and I want to start out with the big one because I think it lays down the foundation for the rest of the questions. So what's the big deal? What. What's the big deal with having youth groups.

Children's ministry programs. What's the big deal? Why. Why have a family integrated church? Why what's the big deal? Why does it matter what our church looks like?

Well That's that's for me, right? That's for me. Yes. Yes I'm as soon. Okay. I'm used to doing the interview not being interviewed. So I'm a little nervous the I think the first thing is and I may be parroting some of Bodhi on this and I do I do want to admit that I've had major influence in this Area from men like buddy Bacchum and others and of course there there there are many others.

But but Bodhi has said a lot of good things and and it when you have an age segregated church. This was my experience. Oh, by the way, I guess I do need to say this while I was in seminary I was our church's youth director.

So we did have a youth group and I was a youth pastor before all this happened so I can I can affirm what What Bodhi and others have said and that is when you have a youth group with a youth pastor what you end up doing is having a church within the church and you have a you have Young people who are being discipled by in general someone who's not an elder.

When I was a youth pastor, I was not an elder. I was not on the elder board. I was not serving as an elder now. This is not every church, but this does provide a problematic Structure because you end up with you end up with youth who are being ministered.

I was 24 23 years old. I was only a few years older than the kids. I was ministering to I wasn't mature enough To really be doing the job that I was called to do and again I'm not saying this is every church, but this is from a practical perspective.

This is one of the issues that I saw there was a church within the church that was being led by an unqualified pastor. And it was me. And and and the church the youth never felt like part of the church and this is what I have seen.

You start out in Children's Church, then you go to youth group. Then you go to young adults then you go to young married couples. Then you go to you know. You never graduate to being part of the church.

You never you're always segregated. You're always separated from the body and the body becomes rather than being a ubiquitous group a homogenized group you end up being a bunch of segregated groups within the church and you know people who are in churches of 5 ,000 people they say well.

That's the way church is supposed to be because they're used to churches that are broke up into certain into groups. But when you're a small church of 80 people or 90 people 100 people which is like our church.

It shouldn't be that you have all of these small groups that are all segregated from one another and never part of the body. So that that was one of the issues that that I had and the other thing is you end up creating Positions that are not biblical.

There is no there is no biblical warrant for the the title of youth pastor. That is not a that is not a biblical. Now I'm not saying that an elder can't take a special interest in teaching young people.

I'm not saying there can't be that but I am saying the idea that we I know men who go to seminary to be youth pastors. What are they teaching them? That's different than regular pastors. What do you know?

Is it is it how to do games? Is it how to do again? You're creating entire Sub networks within the church that are not necessarily biblical and I hope I don't sound like I'm being too overly harsh. That's just one of the things that I would say or some of the issues there Am I being unfair.

Oh.

That's fine. And before Dan has his question. I really meant to preface What I'm getting ready to say before we started the program off. You know There's a lot of different issues and topics that we've talked about that we can talk about that ruffle feathers and and this is one Of those that can ruffle feathers within folks that are in my circles.

And I just wanted to say to everybody that's listening everybody that may listen and and the folks My brothers that are in my circles that listen to this. You know, I'm not taking this subject lightly.

You know, I don't think it's a joke. My conviction is I want to know what Scripture says and I want to live my church. I want my church. I want to live my life. I want my church to to live out the example that Scripture gives because it got it is its author and.

So I want to know what the Bible says and then Go from there. Make my practice and an application in light of that. And so that's what this is. It's about Searching God searching his word and and understanding what's biblical.

And so I don't do this program to Just for the intention of ruffling feathers or causing issues with anybody because I love my brothers. But I do want to say that it is in search of what God would it be having us to do.

And so, all right, Dan, there was there was a disclaimer.

So and let me say one real quick thing. If anything I just said was it was taken as to be intentionally hurtful against any individual. It's not. I'm talking about my experience in my church as a as a youth pastor at 22 23 years old and the things that I dealt with and the things that I saw.

I'm not saying that's indicative of every church in Every situation. So please please understand that. Yeah.

Pragmatism, Ecclesial Structure, and Biblical Boundaries

Um when so I guess it'd be helpful to to understand how we Structure ministry, how do we do? what it is that we do when we are the church when we're acting functioning as elders as Pastors or in whatever other role that you've been given to to do in the church.

Um, so What would you say is the relationship if any between a biblically prescribed Structure of the church and how it's supposed to function a mandate from Scripture and Some sort of pragmatism. Now, is there some freedom where we can be more pragmatic or should we restrict ourselves more to?

Exactly what the Bible has said and no more or does the Bible give us a little bit of leeway to branch off and do whatever. Looks like it may work or be most beneficial to us. Well, I I think that.

The Bible gives us a structure for the offices of the church and We know what that is that there's two offices the office of elder which I would believe includes pastors. Pastors are elders and overseers.

Presbyter Ross Episcopal those those words which refer to the elder pastor office and the office of deacon now, I understand that there are times where You use the word pragmatism. So I'll use that as well that pragmatically like in our church.

We have a finance committee three people who are responsible for Counting the money they have background checks done there you know, we they they are we we have to have them in the sense that We don't want the elders to count money.

We don't want the elders to be seeing what people are giving for us. That's a issue of integrity, right? We would prefer that there be People that the church trusts to do that and it not have to be done with by the elders.

Now could be deacons those three people that we have could be deacons. But it doesn't have to be our Constitution allows for non deacons to serve in that role. So so someone might say well you're being pragmatic I say yeah, but not in not in the sense that we're being unbiblically pragmatic.

We the church has to take money. The church has to have people who are responsible for seeing that that money is counted properly properly Recorded and properly deposited. So yeah, I mean those things have to happen and when it comes to the issue of ministering to The body I do think this is why God gives the church a plurality of elders because everybody is Going to have its own Pragmatic needs and again using the word pragmatism if you know and I guess in a somewhat positive way.

If I am in a church That is his is filled with single mothers. For whatever reason I don't I don't want to you know, say why that might be but if I'm in a church area.

Well God's brought you.

Yeah.

God has brought us 20 single mothers and all of them have three kids and all of those kids are under six years old. Oh my that's gonna. I'm just saying that that's a possibility. That's gonna be difficult it's gonna be difficult to practice family integration in that situation because.

Those moms are gonna need help on Sunday morning with those babies. And so our church has had to establish things like we do have Women who will help other women in the nursery for children up to three years old.

Because we have had single moms who come into the church who need help and my I always joke I always say my wife is is almost like a single mom because she she does not have my help on Sunday morning.

I have to preach for two years. I led worship and preach so I couldn't sit with my family for worship at all. And this was during the time my daughter's nine years old. She has autism. My son is seven.

He is a boy who is a boy who just loves to be a boy and my five-year-old is my clone. She's a girl, but she's a girl version of me. She's she's loud and she's funny and she loves to make noise. And so for those years my wife was like a single mom who needed help and so.

But but our goal is that those children sit in worship. And so as long as we understand that the goal is that the family be together in worship. Then we can help get to that goal in a loving and gracious and merciful and might maybe one would say pragmatic way.

Okay, we're gonna provide a nursery for three up to three years old. This is where nobody's having to leave the congregation to change a diaper. Nobody's having to worry about those kinds of things and and now we have my children are like so.

They're nine seven and five all three of them are able to sit through an hour and a half worship service because I preach for 45 50 minutes and we have everything else in the worship service and my children are able to sit through that even my daughter who is.

You know, she's because of the autism sometimes has a little you know makes noises and things. But she is she is able to sit because we made that a priority. We made training them to sit in the worship service a priority.

And so I think that if the if if a church. Looks at its congregation and has a goal and says but we're not there yet. But we want to get there or maybe they don't want to get there. Maybe they do want to have a children's church and that's what the elders have decided and it's not my job to shepherd somebody.

Else's flock if a if a if a group of elders have decided they're gonna have a children's church. I'm not gonna say they're in sin or they're wrong. That's how the elders are choosing to minister to that church.

I would my only recommendation would be if there's gonna be somebody ministering to the kids make him a qualified man. That's that that that's my biggest thing is unqualified Youth ministers. I think that's a worry for me because I was one I feel like I can talk about him because I was one.

So, yeah, so so, you know a qualified elder being involved in the leadership I think is helpful. So that's that I hope that hope that was a answer To the issue of pragmatism. I think yes, it's each inner car each congregation is different.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well.

And I think some of the some of the questions a little bit later are more pointed and and we'll get to more the biblical. Expressing more of the biblical answers a little bit later. The next question comes I guess.

More more from me because I grew up Southern Baptist and I'm as as of now. I'm still in a Southern Baptist Church.

And so.

For me for my ear. It seems like more recently I've heard because people are always trying to diagnose what the problems are in the convention. Or whatever background you're from. But it seems like here more recently The diagnosis that more people are giving for the Southern Baptist Convention is we're too pragmatic too pragmatic.

Do you think that part of the diagnosis and pragmatism is? Part of this age segregated Programs and ministries that that were so prominent for happening and if so, if it's. If it's not part of their diagnosis, do you think it should be?

I.

Don't think they would see it as as a as part of the problem because I think they see and and and to their defense. They would say they would say something like this at least the men that I've talked to would say something to this effect they would say hey, my parents weren't Christians and I I wouldn't have become a Christian if it weren't for My youth group because I met youth in high school and they invited me to their youth group.

I went to their youth group and I got saved and that's you know I wouldn't be a Christian otherwise and and I get that I get that answer I get how they're saying that so a lot of them I don't think they see the youth group as the problem and and I want to say from the outset.

I Understand I understand that argument. I understand the value of what that was in their life and yeah many people are brought up in non-christian homes and can be saved through the church and and and so.

In that regard I sympathize with the argument, but here's what again I see as the issue is A lot of those kids and I know this from from experience a lot of those kids come into youth group and they become part of the youth group, but they never become part of the church and if the youth group is not is not feeding the body.

Those youth and bringing them up as part of the church. I Getting back to the Southern Baptist Convention. I did have Tom Buck on my show a couple months ago. And we did talk about some of the issues within the Southern Baptist Convention.

I would say youth ministry is not the biggest problem. I think their pragmatism lies a lot more in their willingness to to to try to Satisfy the world and so many things and things like women pastors and think they got they got they got bigger fish to fry than Than youth ministry.

I'm not saying it's not important. But I but I would say among among their problems there, you know Woke ism and stuff like that is probably I would put higher on that list than integrated ministry. But it but it is, you know, certainly a conversation.

What do you think about this diagnosis because I mentioned this to somebody this week? Because I think you're right one of the one of the big issues One of the higher-level issues in the Southern Baptist Convention is the subject of women pastors.

Mm-hmm. Do you think my diagnosis that? We've because you I think you rightly said there's two offices elder and deacon in the church and Since the since the 1970s or whenever it started and we begin to introduce these other positions youth pastor associate pastor children's pastor or whatever type of pastor and so we we've been Messing around with playing around with these different positions that has kind of led to our openness now to women pastors in the Southern Baptist Convention.

You think that's no, absolutely, I think that's a Entry it's it's a true point. And I think it's a point people don't realize is we have rather than having the office of elder and deacon. We now have a ton of different offices and it's always this kind of pastor.

You already mentioned it music pastor youth pastor children's pastor pastor of cleaning the bathrooms, whatever. It's a pastor of everything right and everything has has a title and so people say well What's wrong then with having a ladies pastor who's a pastor now?

We have women pastors and boom we they backdoored this idea. They backdoored. Hey Cindy. That's that's one of our church members miss Cindy. I love her to death. Thank you for listening. So anyway, yeah that so that's a Ha ha just become reformed Presbyterian all your concerns go away.

Okay. Well, yeah. Well, they have yeah, I mean Presbyterians have their issues too, but we love you thank you. But yeah, I think I think that it's I think you're right I think part of the problem is we have created all these unbiblical offices and you mentioned the 1970s.

That's when I mean, you know people talk about family integrated not being the traditional model and I say but wait a minute. It was the traditional model for 1900 years like it was like people went to church and sat with their families.

They didn't go to Children's Church. They didn't there was no such thing I mean my wife reads my my children the little house on the prairie books. You know the little house books and she my kids love those.

It's part of her homeschooling with them and When she's reading those they talk about church a lot. Lori Ingalls Wilder talks about going to church and it was never youth group or anything like that now.

They had Sunday school and I do think we can talk about that because we do have Sunday school but when it came time for corporate worship corporate worship was dad and mom and the kids and. And dad had a dad had a you know, his arm around the family.

Okay, somebody acted up. He could Massage. Yeah. Massage that shoulder or or tap that head and say hey. That's what I say my wife didn't have that with me because I'm up there preaching now I have called my children out from the pulpit.

I have stopped and said hope stop daddy can hear you and It's amazing how quick when she hears her name ring out through the church. Yeah, so.

Well, and and in those days you had family worship at home. Yes, and the father led the family worship and if the father wasn't there One of the other male members of the family or extended family would come in and Have family worship and that's where they would learn and grow within the family.

Yeah, absolutely. That's one of the things we try to stress with our with especially the parents in our church that are having trouble. With their kids and when I say trouble if you come to our church and you sit For an hour and a half you're gonna hear a kid make a noise whether it's my kid or one of the other.

You know 50 kids that we have in the church. You're gonna hear somebody cry. You're gonna hear somebody make a noise you're probably gonna see a parent take a child out and you know have to discipline them and bring them back and We all understand that as part of what we're doing.

We're all loving these kids by having them in there with us. And I know I remember one particular Pastor in South Carolina. I don't remember his name, but he was pretty well-known guy and he said We don't want children in here.

Our children have to go to Children's Church because my sermons are not g-rated. I don't need to be having to Bring my children bring my minute my sermons. I don't need to be. What did he say? I I'm he just said my sermons aren't g-rated.

I I'm not gonna Preach to kids so your kids need to go to Children's Church. I remember thinking first of all Wow, they can't. Children can't even come in. And and it was just amazing to hear that we tell people when they join our church I say two things you need to know one.

We're Calvinistic. So you're gonna hear the word predestination every once in a while. Don't be scared of that. And number two, you're gonna hear kids cry. It's just gonna happen and if you don't if you're not you ready for that.

Just know that that's gonna become part of the the routine and I'm not saying it's a wild house. Our parents are great, but kids are kids man.

Yeah, just this morning. My two-year-old daughter was singing a songs a song about tacos for lunch Right now the middle of the sermon. Which actually it made me think my pastor this morning actually called for the attention of the children So that he could make a point to them.