TiL- Keith Foskey Interview

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Welcome to the truth and love podcast tonight. We're going to talk about age segregated programs versus family integrated church with special guest

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Keith bosky We hope you will stick with us and join the program

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Welcome everybody. Thank you for watching the video. We really appreciate it. This is truth and love podcast

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We get that from Ephesians chapter 4 verse 15, but speaking the truth in love We would grow up in all aspects into him who is the head even

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Christ. That's our goal and that's our aim We want to reach our community and we love doing it with you.

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So thank you for watching Would you give us a like a share and the comments are open? So leave us a comment if you have a question

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We'll try to answer it if you'd like for us to pray for you We'd love to be able to do that as well tonight. We have a special guest

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Keith bosky. He is a pastor What's the name of your church Keith? Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida.

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He is also a fellow podcaster Conversations with a Calvinist and we would encourage you to go check out

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Keith's podcast conversations with a Calvinist. He is on Facebook. He's on YouTube.

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He's on tik -tok and I'm sure he would appreciate your support in those endeavors as well

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He's the pastor of a family integrated church and tonight we want to have a conversation about What that looks like it may be foreign to some people's ears but we want to have a conversation about that what that looks like versus The more traditional

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I guess you would say segregated age segregated programs that many churches have done and still do and Many have got have gained a conviction about that which has kind of led to a transition to family integration so To start off with let's let's start off with something personal which would be your your testimony

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Your your salvation experience and how God saved you. Okay Well, I was

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Saved by the Lord when I was 19 years old. I grew up in church My dad and mom were divorced when

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I was 6 and my stepmom brought me to church after my dad and her got married and It's the same church.

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I'm still in I've never been a member of another church. I grew up in this church I was saved when

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I was 19 continued going to the same church my September 11th, which today is

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September 11 September 11th happened and I was 21 years old So two years after being saved

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I was asked by the elders to preach my first sermon. It was a Sunday after 9 -11 Our pastor had been in a car accident.

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He couldn't preach the elders asked me to preach and so I felt like This was what God had called me to do was to preach his word.

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So my salvation happened When I was 19 and my call to ministry came a couple of years later

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And I know I know you didn't really ask about my call to ministry, but that's that's I always say

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It's funny because I grew up in a church That is the same church. I'm in now but it's not the same church because by God's Word our church has gone through a major Reformation and it's because of the

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Word of God that God was able to take us from a very a Very liberal theologically liberal church where like when in in the 80s when

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I was a kid We had a pastor who didn't even believe in the virgin birth. I mean, I mean, that's how liberal it was

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Disciples of Christ Church, which if you're not familiar with that, that's that's a very liberal mainline denomination and Through the preaching of God's Word.

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God has been able to take that into a fully reformed Baptist Church And that's where we are now.

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And so I just it's it's I'm so grateful to God for what he has done in Bringing about my salvation, but also in bringing about the

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Reformation of the church that I'm in Cool so you you host the conversation with the

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Calvinist podcast pastor at the family integrated church

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Yes It sounds like and what you just said was that neither of those I assume neither of those

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Positions were held and probably a bunch more of positions weren't held by that church when you were there as a as a young one

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No, no, I grew up in the church and it was kind of traditional youth group, you know all those things

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But again, I wasn't saved then So when I was a teenager going to youth group and all those things going to lock -ins

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I remember going to a lock -in and seeing people making out in the corner, you know Because a lot of the people weren't saved and and things were allowed to be crazy and I'm not saying that happens at every lock -in, but I remember seeing crazy stuff when

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I was a teenager and And like I said when I was 19 I came in contact with my first real atheist somebody who didn't believe in God and he challenged me

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I was working for America online I don't if you guys remember the company America online But I was working for America online and the guy sitting next to me didn't believe in God And he he sort of chided me for saying

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I believed in God and for the first time in my life I was confronted with the idea of God not existing and it took me through a time of real soul -searching and really seeking

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God for the first time and God saved me through that and it wasn't through the church.

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It was through an atheist. So I had an atheist evangelist They didn't even know it but he was the one who sent me to find the

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Lord and it was through that that God saved me That's fantastic what to talk about that more later

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I have the same story going on only with Mormons. Yeah. Oh, yeah Well, they'll have to talk about that later.

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So how did you how'd you go across your journey going from your background? to finding a or coming to a

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Calvinist position and Family integration because I would assume that the the theological journey you took probably there was some overlap and intermingling of Arriving to those conclusions.

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How did you go about? Coming to those those conclusions. Well, the first thing is in 2004.

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I was in seminary I was studying at that time. I think for my master's or maybe

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I don't remember I don't know where I was as far as my Maybe it was I was still doing it didn't matter.

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I was in seminary. I was asked to be a speaker at a At a youth camp and the youth the youth camp leader so so again not family integrated

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The youth camp leader was a Calvinist and he challenged me on the doctrines of grace

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First thing he asked me was what I thought about predestination. And of course I gave him the typical Answer I said well

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God looked down the corridor of time He saw what I was gonna do and that's how he decided to choose me because I first chose him blah blah blah and At the end of the week and I was the speaker

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I was the preacher of the camp and at the end of the week This guy was challenging me so much that it ended up starting a year -long journey of searching

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Researching the doctrines of grace and again, my seminary was teaching me the opposite My seminary was a southern not the

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Southern Baptist seminary, but it was a it was Jacksonville Baptist Theological Seminary So it was a seminary in Jacksonville None of the guys were reformed.

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I was told that Calvinism kills churches I was told that Calvinism was bad. Calvin was a terrible man What's that survey this yeah, he killed cervidis and so all of these things led to Me researching and and and I remember when

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I first started becoming Confident in the doctrines of grace I began teaching and preaching those things in Sunday school and then of course in the in the pulpit because by that time

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I was I was I was I became a pastor in 2006 and And Within two years the church there were people in the church that wanted to have me fired

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Because I was because I was a Calvinist and a couple of people tried to have me removed and by God's grace

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I'm still there. I count Tom Askell as being a man who saved my job Because I called

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Tom Askell. I don't know if you know him He's a founders ministry head. I called him because I had met him at a founders conference in 2005

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I called him and I said Tom there's some people who want me to leave because I'm a Calvinist I think I'm ready to resign and he said don't you dare resign?

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He said you stand up and fight and make them fire you so so I did I stood up I fought

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Thank you, Becky For the fans of the tick -tock videos. I appreciate I think she's talking to me.

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I don't know Anyway, so So Tom Askell, like I said, I credit him for say because I would have walked away

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I would have I thought I was the one in the wrong I thought I was doing I thought I was offending people so I was like I don't want to split the church and he said no stand up for the truth and I stood up for the truth and a

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Couple of people left but not very many the church was willing to hear what I had to preach and hear what the word had to say and from 2008 to 2010 we went through a process of Reforming by studying the scriptures and in and in the midst of that we became convinced of The doctrines of grace as a church not just as an individual but as a church and we changed our name so in 2011, we went from being

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Forest Christian Church, which was name of the church when I was a kid to Sovereign Grace Family Church And that and and I was told at the time if you call yourself a family church

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You are going to be labeled family integrated I didn't know what it meant and I said

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I said well, what does that mean? And they said well that means you don't have a youth group and blah blah blah and I said well We don't have a youth group.

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We have we we don't have children's church. So we're kind of there already And I knew enough

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I I knew enough to know That yeah by taking this name family church that you know, like I said, we are kind of Making a stand on this

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But it wasn't a militant thing. We weren't doing it to be, you know like we're gonna be the family integrated place, but we did have we had we had a commitment to Having our children and worship with us.

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Sure. And so that was we were a family church in that regard and so that happened

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In the midst of the Calvinism in the midst of the Reformation a reformation of theology

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But also a reformation a reformation of family recognition or family practice was happening as well

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And the last time we had a children's church, I think was 2008 maybe it was before all the all that stuff.

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We haven't had children's church in a long time sure One quick follow -up question.

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Do you think the the added weight of Knowing that you weren't just leading yourself Through this process, but you were guiding a church caused you to be more diligent in your studies.

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I Would say yes, I would also say I am by nature an apologist

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I would say Every pastor, I think there's some pastors who are by nature counselors. I think there's some pastors who are by nature

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Expositors, I'd like to think of myself as an expositor But at the end of the day if you listen to my preaching

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I have an apologist heart And so my desire is always to defend what

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I'm teaching even when I preach. I'm always considering the antithesis. I'm considering the argument What's the other person gonna say?

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Do I understand what they're saying? And so that was helpful because every time I stood in the pulpit

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I preached like an apologist I preached defending what I was saying from the text And so I think that was helpful and that's just my nature

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Was that you know, my master's thesis was on defending the

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Bible and Defending the truth and so that's just my heart and I guess that that helped nice you were talking about your your

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Journey into Calvinism. It made me think about mine a little bit and just a short little snippet about my

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Transitional or journey I printed off. I don't even remember what the name of was

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But it was on one of John Piper's website design God website and it was a really thick

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PDF print off on Tulip and going through tulip and and I was actually going through that thing, you know highlighting it trying to work against it

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And you would think going through that thing the light bulb would go off But it wasn't going through through his you know, huge print off that he had it was actually one verse

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Isaiah 42 8 is When the light bulb went off for me where it says

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I am the Lord your God. I will not share my glory with another When I read that verse the light bulb went off for me

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For Calvinism and the doctrines of grace because it If there's a

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God I'm not him and he's not going to share his glory with anybody else that includes me So is my salvation is all about him

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Yeah, and so I mean it just all began to make sense and fall into place You were talking about America online.

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Are those the folks that that said you've got mail? Yes Yeah, we sent out hundreds of thousands of CDs and you got 90 hours of internet for free in a month

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I think and it was yeah, that was us. We I was a AOL Saves representative for for a year.

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Yeah Well, let's move on the list that I have here And I want to start out with the big one because I think it lays down the foundation for the rest of the questions

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So what's the big deal? What what's the big deal? with having youth groups children's ministry programs

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What's the big deal why why have a family integrated church why what's the big deal?

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Why does it matter what our church looks like? Well, that's that's for me, right?

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That's for me. Yes. Yes I'm as soon. Okay. I'm used to doing the interview not being interviewed.

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So I'm a little nervous the I think the first thing is

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And I may be parroting some of Bodhi on this and I do I do want to admit that I've had major influence in this

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Area from men like buddy Bacchum and others and of course there there there are many others But but Bodhi has said a lot of good things and and when you have an age segregated church

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This was my experience. Oh, by the way, I guess I do need to say this while I was in seminary I was our church's youth director.

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So we did have a youth group and I was a youth pastor before all this happened So I can

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I can affirm What what Bodhi and others have said and that is when you have a youth group with a youth pastor

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What you end up doing is having a church within the church and you have you have

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Young people who are being discipled by in general someone who's not an elder

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When I was a youth pastor, I was not an elder. I was not on the elder board I was not serving as an elder.

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Now. This is not every church, but this does provide a problematic Structure because you end up with you end up with youth who are being ministered.

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I was 24 23 years old I was only a few years older than the kids. I was ministering to I wasn't mature enough

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To really be doing the job that I was called to do and again I'm not saying this is every church, but this is from a practical perspective this is one of the issues that I saw there was a church within the church that was being led by an unqualified pastor and it was me and And the church the youth never felt like part of the church and this is what

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I have seen You start out in Children's Church, then you go to youth group Then you go to young adults, then you go to young married couples.

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Then you go to you know You never graduate to being part of the church.

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You never you're always segregated You're always separated from the body and the body becomes rather than being a ubiquitous group a homogenized group you end up being a bunch of segregated groups within the church and you know people who are in churches of 5 ,000 people they say well

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That's the way church is supposed to be because they're used to churches that are broke up into certain into groups But when you're a small church of 80 people or 90 people or 100 people, which is like our church

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It shouldn't be that you have all of these small groups that are all segregated from one another and never part of the body

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So that that was one of the issues that that I had and the other thing is you end up creating

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Positions that are not biblical. There is no there is no biblical warrant for the the title of youth pastor

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That is not a that is not a biblical Now I'm not saying that an elder can't take a special interest in teaching young people

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I'm not saying there can't be that but I am saying the idea that we we I know men who go to seminary

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To be youth pastors, what are they teaching them? That's different than regular pastors What you know, is it is it how to do games?

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Is it how to do again? You're creating entire Sub networks within the church that are not necessarily biblical and I hope

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I don't sound like I'm being too overly harsh That's just one of the things that I would say or some of the issues there

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My hair am I being unfair? Oh That's fine. And before Dan has his question.

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I really meant to preface What I'm getting ready to say before we started the program off You know

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There's a lot of different issues and topics that we've talked about that we can talk about that ruffle feathers And and this is one of those that can ruffle feathers with in folks that are in my circles and I just wanted to say to Everybody that's listening everybody that may listen and and the folks my brothers that are in my circles that listen to this

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You know, I'm not taking this subject lightly, you know, I don't think it's a joke

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My conviction is I want to know what scripture says and I want to live my church

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I want my church. I want to live my life I want my church to to live out the example that scripture gives because it got it is its author and so I want to know what the

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Bible says and then Go from there Make my practice and an application in light of that.

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And so that's what this is. It's about Searching God searching his word and and understanding what's biblical.

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And so I don't do this program to Just for the intention of ruffling feathers or causing issues with anybody because I love my brothers

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But I do want to say that it is in search of what God would it be having us to do

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And so, all right, Dan, there was there was a disclaimer So and let me say one real quick thing

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If anything I just said was it was taken as to be intentionally hurtful against any individual

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It's not I'm talking about my experience in my church as a as a youth pastor at 22 23 years old and the things that I dealt with and the things that I saw

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I'm not saying that's indicative of every church in every situation So, please please understand that. Yeah when so I guess it'd be helpful to to understand how we

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Structure ministry, how do we do? what it is that we do when we are the church when we're acting functioning as elders as Pastors or in whatever other role that you've been given to to do in the church.

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Um, so What would you say is the relationship if any between a biblically prescribed

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Structure of the church and how it's supposed to function a mandate from Scripture and Some sort of pragmatism now

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Is there some freedom where we can be more pragmatic or should we restrict ourselves more to?

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Exactly what the Bible has said and no more or does the Bible give us a little bit of leeway to branch off and do whatever

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Looks like it may work or be most beneficial to us well, I I think that The Bible gives us a structure for the offices of the church and We know what that is that there's two offices the office of elder which

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I would believe includes pastors pastors are elders and overseers

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Presbyter Ross Episcopal those those words which refer to the elder pastor office and the office of deacon now,

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I understand that there are times where You use the word pragmatism. So I'll use that as well that pragmatically like in our church

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We have a finance committee three people who are responsible for Counting the money they have background checks done there

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You know, we they they are we we have to have them in the sense that We don't want the elders to count money we don't want the elders to be seeing what people are giving for us

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That's a issue of integrity, right? We would prefer that there be people that the church trusts to do that and it not have to be done by the elders

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Now could be deacons those three people that we have could be deacons But it doesn't have to be our Constitution allows for non deacons to serve in that role.

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So so Someone might say well you're being pragmatic I say yeah, but not and not in the sense that we're being unbiblically pragmatic

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We the church has to take money The church has to have people who are responsible for seeing that that money is counted properly properly

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Recorded and properly deposited. So yeah, I mean those things have to happen and when it comes to the issue of ministering to The body

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I do think this is why God gives the church a plurality of elders Because everybody is

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Going to have its own Pragmatic needs and again using the word pragmatism if you know, and I guess in a somewhat positive way

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If I am in a church That is his is filled with single mothers

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For whatever reason I don't I don't want to you know, say why that might be but if I'm in a church area

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Yeah, God has brought us 20 single mothers and all of them have three kids and all of those kids are under six years old

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Oh my that's gonna I'm just saying that that's a possibility. That's gonna be difficult it's gonna be difficult to practice family integration in that situation because Those moms are gonna need help on Sunday morning with those babies and so our church has had to establish things like we do have

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Women who will help other women in the nursery for children up to three years old Because we have had single moms who come into the church who need help and my

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I always joke I always say my wife is is almost like a single mom because she she does not have my help on Sunday morning

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I have to preach for two years I led worship and preach so I couldn't sit with my family for worship at all

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And this was during the time. My daughter's nine years old. She has autism. My son is seven He is a boy who is a boy who just loves to be a boy and my five -year -old is my clone

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She's a girl, but she's a girl version of me She's she's loud and she's funny and she loves to make noise and so for those years my wife was like a single mom who needed help and so But but our goal is that those children sit in worship

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And so as long as we understand that the goal is that the family be together in worship Then we can help get to that goal in a loving and gracious and merciful and might maybe one would say pragmatic way

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Okay, we're gonna provide a nursery for three up to three years old This is where nobody's having to leave the congregation to change a diaper

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Nobody's having to worry about those kinds of things and and now we have my children are like said

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All three of them are able to sit through an hour and a half worship service because I preach for 45 -50 minutes and we have everything else in the worship service and my children are able to sit through that even my daughter who is

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You know, she's because of the autism sometimes has a little you know makes noises and things But she is she is able to sit because we made that a priority

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We made training them to sit in the worship service a priority And so I think that if the if a church

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Looks at its congregation and has a goal and says but we're not there yet But we want to get there or maybe they don't want to get there

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Maybe they do want to have a children's church and that's what the elders have decided and it's not my job to shepherd somebody Else's flock if a if a if a group of elders have decided they're gonna have a children's church

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I'm not gonna say they're in sin or they're wrong. That's how the elders are choosing to minister to that church I would my only recommendation would be if there's going to be somebody ministering to the kids make him a qualified man

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That's that that that's my biggest thing is unqualified Youth ministers.

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I think that's a worry for me because I was one I feel like I can talk about him because I was one

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So yeah, so so, you know a qualified elder being involved in the leadership,

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I think is helpful So that's that I hope that hope that was a answer

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To the issue of pragmatism, I think yes, it's each in the car each congregation is different. Yeah.

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Yeah Well, and I think some of the some of the questions a little bit later are more pointed and we'll get to more the biblical

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Expressing more of the biblical answers a little bit later The next question comes I guess more more from me because I grew up Southern Baptist and I'm as as of now

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I'm still in a Southern Baptist Church and so from for my ear

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It seems like more recently I've heard because people are always trying to diagnose what the problems are in the convention

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Or whatever background you're from But it seems like here more recently the diagnosis that more people are giving for the

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Southern Baptist Convention is We're too pragmatic too pragmatic Do you think that part of the diagnosis and pragmatism is?

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Part of this age segregated Programs and ministries that that were so prominent for happening and if so, if it's

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If it's not part of their diagnosis, do you think it should be? I don't think they would see it as as a as part of the problem because I think they see and and and to their defense

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They would say they would say something like this at least the men that I've talked to would say something to this effect they would say

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Hey, my parents weren't Christians and I I wouldn't have become a Christian if it weren't for My youth group because I met youth in high school and they invited me to their youth group

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I went to their youth group and I got saved and that's you know I wouldn't be a Christian otherwise and and I get that I get that answer

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I get how they're saying that so a lot of them I don't think they see the youth group as the problem and and I want to say from the outset.

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I Understand I understand that argument I understand the the value of what that was in their life and yeah many people are brought up in non -christian homes and can be saved through the church and and and so in that regard

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I Sympathize with the argument, but here's what again. I see as the issue is

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A lot of those kids and I know this from from experience a lot of those kids come into youth group and they become

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Part of the youth group, but they never become part of the church and if the youth group is not is not feeding the body those youth and bringing them up as part of the church,

28:27

I Think that's where the disconnect lies now getting back to the Southern Baptist Convention I did have

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Tom buck on my show a couple months ago And we did talk about some of the issues within the

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Southern Baptist Convention I would say youth ministry is not the biggest problem I think their pragmatism lies a lot more in their willingness to to to try to Satisfy the world and so many things and things like women pastors and think they got they got they got bigger fish to fry than Than youth ministry.

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I'm not saying it's not important, but I'm but I would say among among their problems there, you know

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Woke ism and stuff like that is is probably I would put higher on that list than integrated ministry

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But it but it is, you know, certainly a conversation Well, what do you think about this diagnosis because I mentioned this to somebody this week

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Because I think you're right one of the one of the big issues One of the higher -level issues in the

29:22

Southern Baptist Convention is the subject of women pastors Do you think my diagnosis that?

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We've because you I think you rightly said there's two offices elder and deacon in the church and Since the since the 1970s or whenever it started and we begin to introduce these other positions youth pastor associate pastor children's pastor or whatever type of pastor and so we we've been

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Messing around with playing around with the these different positions That has kind of led to our openness now to women pastors in the

30:04

Southern Baptist Convention Do you think that's no, absolutely. I think that's a

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Entry it's it's a true point And I think it's a point people don't realize is we have rather than having the office of elder and deacon

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We now have a ton of different offices and it's always this kind of pastor You already mentioned it music pastor youth pastor children's pastor pastor of cleaning the bathrooms, whatever

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It's a pastor of everything right and everything has has a title and so people say well What's wrong then with having a ladies pastor who's a pastor now?

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We have women pastors and boom we they backdoored this idea. They backdoored. Hey Cindy That's that's one of our church members miss

30:42

Cindy. I love her to death. Thank you for listening. So anyway, yeah that so that's a

30:49

Just become reformed Presbyterian all your concerns go away. Okay. Well, yeah Well, they have yeah,

30:57

I mean Presbyterians have their issues too, but we love you thank you But yeah,

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I think I think that it's I think you're right I think part of the problem is we have created all these unbiblical offices and you mentioned the 1970s

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That's when I mean, you know people talk about family integrated not being the traditional model and I say but wait a minute

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It was the traditional model for 1900 years like it was like people went to church and sat with their families.

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They didn't go to Children's Church There was no such thing I mean my wife reads my my children the

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Little House on the Prairie books You know the Little House books and then she my kids love those. It's part of her homeschooling with them and When she's reading those they talk about church a lot

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Laura Ingalls Wilder talks about going to church and it was never youth group or anything like that now They had Sunday school and I do think we can talk about that because we do have

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Sunday school But when it came time for corporate worship Corporate worship was dad and mom and the kids and and dad had a dad had a you know

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His arm around the family case somebody acted up. He could massage Massage that shoulder or or tap that head and say hey, that's what

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I say My wife didn't have that with me because I'm up there preaching now. I have called my children out from the pulpit I have stopped and said hope stop

32:20

Daddy can hear you and It's amazing how quick when she hears her name ring out through the church

32:29

Yeah, so Well, and and in those days you had family worship at home

32:35

Yes, and the father led the family worship and if if the father wasn't there one of the other male members of the family or extended family would come in and Have family worship and that's where they would learn and grow within the family

32:53

Yeah, absolutely That's one of the things we try to stress with our with especially the parents in our church that are having trouble

33:01

With their kids and when I say trouble if you come to our church and you sit For an hour and a half you're gonna hear a kid make a noise whether it's my kid or one of the other

33:10

You know 50 kids that we have in the church. You're gonna hear somebody cry. You're gonna hear somebody make a noise you're probably gonna see a parent take a child out and you know have to discipline them and bring them back and We all understand that as part of what we're doing

33:22

We're all loving these kids by having them in there with us. And I know I remember one particular

33:28

Pastor in South Carolina. I don't remember his name, but he was pretty well -known guy and he said

33:35

We don't want children in here. Our children have to go to Children's Church because my sermons are not g -rated

33:41

I don't need to be having to Bring My children bring my minute my sermons,

33:49

I don't need to be What did he say? I I'm he just said my sermons aren't g -rated.

33:54

I I'm not gonna Preach to kids so your kids need to go to Children's Church. I remember thinking first of all

34:01

Wow, they can children can't even come in And and it was just amazing to hear that we tell people when they join our church

34:11

I say two things you need to know one. We're Calvinistic. So you're gonna hear the word predestination every once in a while Don't be scared of that.

34:17

And number two, you're gonna hear kids cry It's just gonna happen. And if you don't if you're not you ready for that Just know that that's gonna become part of the the routine and I'm not saying it's a wild house

34:31

Our parents are great, but kids are kids man. You gotta deal with it Just this morning my two -year -old daughter was singing a songs a song about tacos for lunch

34:43

Right around the middle of the sermon Which actually it made me think my pastor this morning actually called for the attention of the children

34:53

So that he could make a point to them. Yes Point was children. Listen up, you know, just because you're a part of this church doesn't you still have to repent and believe in Christ I'm gonna preach it brother.

35:07

That's right. Amen, which kind of brings us to Cool little segue into the next question.

35:13

I didn't know how I was gonna transition. There we go What I'm kind of hearing from you is that pragmatism isn't necessarily bad a bad thing if we remember to Work it within the biblical parameters that are laid out in Scripture so if we make sure that the structure and foundation is one that is found in Scripture that we said set up things with Biblically qualified elders and deacons at the church is structured the way that God has said that a bit of pragmatism is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can also be helpful because you're

35:50

Purposely shepherding the people who are under your care as you're called to do so Some people would look to the

36:00

Bible and say that Because there's no prohibition against age segregated ministries

36:07

Then we should be allowed to go ahead and do those things I'm not going to give you a

36:16

Answer that I want you to give just but also

36:22

If if the church is not allowed to go that far What can the church do in order to help the parents biblically disciple their children along the way?

36:34

Okay. Well the first question, okay. I feel like that's like two questions. I'll answer it in two parts The first question

36:42

I think we could talk about the RPW which is the regular regulative principle of worship which says that what we are to do in worship is to be regulated by the scripture and that is

36:54

Opposed to what sometimes referred to as the normative principle, which says we can do anything as long as it's not forbidden

37:00

And so the Reformed Tradition has normally upheld the

37:07

RPW the the Regulative principle which says that we are only to do that that which is commanded and I believe it's

37:14

Lutheranism and some other groups have considered the normative principle more in line, which is to say that we can do whatever is not forbidden and and so I I would say the regulative principles a little more

37:29

Is a little more safe because you're you only want to do what the scripture commands and and so The next question is what does the scripture command regarding children?

37:38

Right, if you're gonna follow the regulative principle, the next question is how how does that apply to kids? And and and you we know the passages, but I'll go ahead and mention them.

37:47

You know, we are told in Deuteronomy 6 You know that that we are to teach our children

37:53

Diligently and that we're to teach them when they rise up when they lie down when they go in when they go out We write these truths and bind them on our hands and our foreheads, you know

38:01

So these things that that's that's a typical Homeschooler because I am a homeschool parent.

38:06

So it's a typical homeschooler Passage that we'll use a lot that it's our responsibility to teach our children.

38:13

So how does that look? Practically, I think one of the best things a church can do is to disciple the husbands and fathers of the church and So that they will disciple their children

38:28

Discipling them to disciple their children is the is is the primary goal we used to have a group called dads and dudes that was the name of the group and I'm a sucker for alliteration.

38:40

So everything we do is like alliterated at the church. Yeah, so randomly person, okay

38:47

So dads and dudes was a group where once a week I would bring men into my office and I would teach them how to lead their families and family worship or I would talk to them about what they were studying and Help them to understand the scriptures better so that they could better lead their families and when people ask me they say

39:06

Well, does your church have a youth pastor? I said no we have 40 of them Because every father is a youth pastor in the sense that he is responsible for his children

39:16

Now again, if you're in a church where there are no fathers or there are only a few fathers

39:21

And and the the fathers are not believers or the fathers don't come to church or the fathers are absent.

39:27

Then. Yeah, that's gonna change some of what happens but it doesn't change the Ultimate principle of what you're trying to accomplish and that is to bring these children up in the fear and admonition of the

39:38

Lord and to Raise them up to be members of the church. Not just members of a subset within the church

39:43

And so if the goal is to make them part of the body, I mean you said you're Presbyterian So the church you believe that children are brought into the church as infants because they were made part of the church now

39:55

We could talk about that on another show, but at least that particular Doctrine These children in your eyes are part of the church

40:04

They are in that sense members of the Covenant members of the church so they in ought to be treated as such and not to be treated as a subsection or or an outside part and and so so using the fathers as Disciplers of the children is is is is is one way to make it work other men within the church

40:28

I'll give you what we do at our church. We have we have a group of men in our church that wanted to teach life skills to some of the young men in our church

40:38

One of them is a we have a guy in our church who is a paramedic on a on a on a helicopter he's a helicopter paramedic and so he is a he is

40:49

Skilled in those areas. So he gives classes to our young people on first aid and things like that We have other men who are skilled in outdoors things

40:58

We just spent my family went for a whole day to another member of our house and they taught us how to process chickens

41:04

We we we learned how to cut chickens heads off My son seven years old is plucking a chicken that just got pulled out of 150 degree water and he was excited he was learning a life skill and we were doing life together and He wasn't he wasn't off with the youth while I was off with the adults

41:23

We were all together doing this thing and that's one of the things that I try to stress anything that we do at the church

41:30

Is for everybody and we want the whole family there. So again, it's family church

41:36

Got you. I don't want to beat a dead horse and I don't

41:41

I don't want to repeat questions I just know in my mind

41:46

I can I see I remember reflect on Conversations that I've had that I continue to have with with folks

41:53

We're still in the traditional church. And so maybe if I ask the question a different way We can answer it a different way.

42:00

Just just yeah, and if I didn't answer the question, please Rebuke me because I'm not trying to be I honestly if I if sometimes

42:07

I just I get If I didn't answer your question brother, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to I wasn't trying to not

42:14

I Think I think you're doing great and not we really appreciate Learning from you and getting some of your insights from your experiences.

42:22

I think this is wonderful Yeah, you're never gonna hear a complaint about being able to stay on the top topic of a question.

42:29

We must do Frequently You're a good company.

42:34

I don't think even went off topic though so Another word that I like to use or another phrase that I like to use

42:42

That's similar to pragmatism is is I use this term or phrase Creative license.

42:48

Mm -hmm. And so The more I hear you speak to us the

42:56

I See the line being drawn between children and youth ministry age segregated programs Versus what a family integrated church looks like And so I'm thinking about the person that I'm having a conversation with That's that's still in one of those traditional churches

43:13

Maybe even a youth pastor himself that is struggling with me and struggling with these concepts

43:18

And so, you know, I'm asking myself and I'm asking this individual Does does the

43:25

Bible give us a this creative license to depart from the the father being the the leader of the home the the youth pastor as as you put it, which

43:37

I like that and and You know, how far can we depart from that?

43:43

How much of a creative is like do is there room for a creative license to come up with children's ministries youth ministries?

43:52

All these different programs within the church when scripture has already Spoken on the issue of who who raises up children and one of the popular verses that come up is, you know first Corinthians 9

44:05

I'll just read it real quick. I Become all things to all people that by all means

44:13

I might win some and so How would you speak to that that person if you were having that conversation?

44:21

That's you're still in a traditional church Maybe a youth pastor themselves like you were That just struggling with this issue or struggling with these concepts

44:32

Okay, I'm gonna answer in a way that may sound somewhat polemic

44:37

So, please don't think that I'm being a jerk anybody who's listening to this on the Internet Please don't think

44:42

I'm a jerk But if a person said to me if somebody read to me the first Corinthians passage that you just read

44:47

I become all things all people so that I may win some I would say would it be okay if the pastor dressed like a

44:53

Clown and honked a horn during a sermon And if they say no, then

44:58

I say, okay, then then you have a line. All right, so you have a line All right, so let's figure out where the line is

45:05

Okay, if the pastor shouldn't dress like a clown and shouldn't honk a horn during the sermon to get people's attention Then let's back up and figure out where the line is

45:12

Okay so so Paul saying we should be all things all people does not mean that I should dress up like a clown and honk a horn during The sermon even if that does get people's attention, right?

45:21

So there's a line. So let's figure out where that line is now I'm not saying that youth directors dress like clowns. I'm saying but I've seen it.

45:27

I've seen crazy stuff I've seen I have seen youth pastors When I was a young man and I was doing youth ministry

45:35

I saw things where they would put peanut butter in somebody's armpit and they would blindfold somebody and have them lick peanut butter out

45:41

Of an armpit to see who was willing to do it And that was the contest that was being done or to put a ring on somebody's toe and have somebody pulled that ring off the toe

45:50

With their tongue or their lips. They're like like put the toe in their mouth And I'm thinking first of all if this was my kid

45:56

If this was my nine -year -old daughter and she was being encouraged to lick somebody's armpit or pull some a ring off Somebody's toe with her mouth

46:03

I would quickly lose all the sanctification that I have because I would be very very very upset

46:09

And so I do think there must be a line We are called to do all things decently and in order and that's in the same book first Corinthians 14

46:18

Tells us all things would be done decently and in order and so we have to drop back and say what what's the line?

46:25

Okay Is there is is the ministry that's being done true ministry?

46:31

Is it being done by qualified men? Is it being done for the purpose of integrating these children into the body?

46:38

These are the questions I would ask and if that's what's happening Then you know praise the

46:43

Lord but if that's not the goal if the goal is to create 25 year old adolescents who've never grown up and We and we end up creating a church that looks more like a youth group than a church

46:57

I'm gonna tell you something There's churches in my town that were built Because the people who grew up in youth group never wanted to graduate to church

47:05

So they built a youth group for adults and that's what the churches are They've become youth groups for adults where there's nothing serious going on There's no qualified leaders and everybody who's preaching and teaching wants to be

47:19

Dane Cook or carrot top More than they want to be Paul Washer or John MacArthur and so again if I sound like I'm being a little argumentative

47:28

I do think that there is a There's a line and we have to you know, we have to consider it again if I sound like a jerk, please rebuke me because I'm not trying to but I do think that there becomes an issue of Okay, I want to be all things all people.

47:43

What is my goal? My goal is to take these children and And Integrate them into the church so how do

47:52

I do that if the youth group is the way that the elders have decided to do that and one of the elders has decided that he's going to lead that group as as a man of God and He's going to preach and teach the

48:03

Word of God and that's the best way because there's there's maybe there's not enough fathers or maybe The fathers are immature and the fathers need to be trained and a few years need to happen before they can get to where they

48:13

Want to be but they're going towards a goal, man I'm not gonna say anything about that because I do think that there's when you talk about creative license and pragmatism

48:20

No, I think that's shepherding and I think it's just an aspect of shepherding what you have

48:26

You know, we don't choose our flock Jesus brings the people to us and we got a minister to who he brings to us

48:33

So could you flesh out that idea a little bit more and I'll tell you what I mean because I just kind of threw out

48:38

Random, you know pronouns and other antecedents at you We lose the feed no, we're good

48:49

What would what would you say if you were to compare and contrast a age segregated youth group

48:56

With a family integrated youth group one that that maintains the family structure keeps crisis center qualified leadership there what would the differences be between an age segregated youth group and a family integrated youth group where Say they do have a situation where maybe the father's need a little bit of extra help being discipled and they're kind of stepping in and helping

49:21

How what would that look like? How would that? Function in a church to benefit, you know all involved well, honestly, that's

49:30

It's funny that you mentioned it because I'll give you two examples from our church one

49:36

We wanted to do VBS, but we did not want to do VBS where kids were separated from their parents

49:41

So we did a family integrated VBS. It was in the evening So the father's generally are off in the evenings and able to come so we would do it from 6 to 8 p .m

49:51

So the father's could be there. We did it for a week and we've done this for several years We don't do it every year, but we have done this several times where And and one of the times what we did for VBS was each night a different father would lead family

50:06

Worship in the sanctuary just like he did at his home So every night a different father led family worship for VBS and so one night it was brother

50:15

Aaron one night It was brother Roy one night It was me and our kids sat at the table we put a table and just like a dinner table and we all sat

50:21

I pulled out my guitar and led family worship and Taught the other families how we do family worship and they got to see my at the time little

50:30

Children running around the table and not listening and you know All those things that happened during family worship and they got to see that family worship is not perfect My wife and I did a podcast on you know when family worship goes off the rails that was the title of it because it does sometimes go off the rails and And helping people understand that that does happen family, you know family worship is rarely perfect You know and but you're training them right you're teaching your children.

50:57

Now. The second thing was the issue of Youth like a family integrated youth group

51:04

We have I already mentioned we have men in our church that teach our children different things the chicken plucking and the first aid and all

51:10

That well that happens in a group in our church called young disciples, which is a group that is

51:19

Family integrated group. It's not just kids and one leader, but it's a bunch of fathers that teach these skills life skills along with biblical principles to these kids and they've taught everything from how to Work a compass to how to change a tire

51:36

These were like life skills because I'm gonna say something I'm not an automotive guy if my car tire goes flat.

51:42

I have to call somebody I'm so ashamed like I know how to change a tire, but I don't even know where my jack is, right?

51:48

So like other men in the church are helping my kids learn these skills and I'm teaching them. I teach self -defense

51:53

I am an NRA certified pistol instructor. So I teach firearms and firearm safety

51:59

So I am able to do that with kids that other parents don't know how they'll do those things and I teach their parents as well, and so we make

52:09

Years ago, I don't mean to change that years ago. I read it a thing called raising a modern -day knight.

52:14

You guys ever heard that? It was it was it was something that was in the homeschool community raising a modern -day knight was about How within the within the culture of knights and squires as squires were being brought up to knighthood and being brought up to Serve in the king's court

52:33

There was a community of people around them whose job it was to prepare them for adulthood and in America, we don't have a good way of taking a boy to become a man.

52:47

You asked the average American How does it when does a boy become a man? They'll say when he turns 18 or when he gets his first job or You know some crass person may say the first time he has sex right?

52:57

That's when he's a man, right? Those are terrible things to consider that's what manhood is and We don't know when the line of manhood is because we have been brought up in a culture that doesn't even express manhood in a biblical way and so we

53:13

Come around these young men in our church and we seek as a community of men to raise them to manhood to teach them what it means to be

53:22

Biblically pure and waiting for your wife and preparing a home for her and preparing for courtship and things like that And that's what it is.

53:30

The community does that together? It's not one youth pastor in a group full of 30 kids it's a bunch of kids and a bunch of fathers and a bunch of mothers who are together and Like sound me to sound like I'm preaching.

53:43

But yeah, there's reach on Organ somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, we do just as I am and we take up an offering

53:51

So so I think yeah I would say a family integrated youth group is as close to the way of describing what we have

53:57

There is a group that meets it's not one leader It's a group of fathers and mothers who come together and minister to the kids and I'm part of that my family goes and enjoys that and I learn things and my kids learn things and I get to teach things and We all benefit from each other's shared experiences.

54:15

I Really think I Really think you you've answered my next question because I'm still thinking about those folks that That I'm having conversations with But I really think that you've answered the next question because there's some some out there that that are you know telling me well, we

54:36

We reject this entertainment mindset, you know, the the pizza pizza parties and The the fun and games we you know, we reject that we we take it serious.

54:46

We teach them the Word of God So we take youth group serious But but you're saying the the model that you see

54:56

Or that you take in your church is if you're going to get the youth together, you're also getting the family together

55:03

Yes and But but I did I guess I need to step back and be completely transparent in all things

55:10

We do have Sunday school and I would say that our Sunday school class is probably as close

55:16

To what other people might do on like a Wednesday night or something because we do have age

55:22

Sunday school classes that that children can go to But they are they are taught and and and done

55:30

Like I'm the elder who teaches the youth and then we call it the youth or the young people we don't call it youth but but but we the

55:38

Middle and high school students are in with me and another and another deacon because I'm not by myself obviously with the kids and we have another adult and But that's relatively recent and in our in our entire reasoning behind it was

55:55

We started a homeschool group because again we're we have almost all of not everybody in our church is homeschoolers, but I would say 90 % of our families homeschool and What we found was every

56:07

Friday. We were doing a homeschool co -op and The kids that were in that middle and high school age were coming to me for Bible questions and I said, you know what these there isn't there is an opportunity where I as a pastor

56:25

Can sit down and pastor these young people in the same way that I would do a group of men or a group of young Married couples or whatever.

56:33

I can sit down and and pastor these Children and and and be that for them for 45 minutes on a

56:41

Sunday morning so I guess I hope nobody thinks I'm being hypocritical there because I That's where I would say if somebody's doing it that way

56:48

I don't necessarily have a problem with that as long as it's qualified men and the goal is to bring them up and to be

56:53

Integrated into the church eventually then I don't have a problem with that Yeah, sure.

56:58

There's a there's a book out called desiring the kingdom by I forget who wrote it But his whole premise in the book is that as you go throughout life different liturgies present themselves based on what you want to express so for instance you go to the mall and everything you have there is a

57:16

Liturgy or an experience of hey go buy stuff, you know spend your money on this that or the other thing So as we walk into the church structure

57:24

We walk, you know with each other as a community. What is the overall thrust of what we're doing here?

57:30

well We as family as a community are working together on the biblical parameters that God has put forward

57:37

That we will grow mature together Leading on and I think that's what you're getting at that as long as you're you're general the air that you breathe is family and community there can be pragmatic opportunities to do something like a a

57:58

Middle school high school intense Bible study time where they get together and do something they would benefit from it

58:05

Yeah, and I mean, you know a lot of these young people I have taken through The the baptism class that we do.

58:13

Well, it's not really a class It's a if someone comes to me and again not presbyterian So if somebody if one of the young people come to me and want to be baptized then you know, we do it at least six weeks of Individual ministry with that child and it's usually when

58:29

I say child we're talking teenagers not little little little children, but you know middle or high school student and I and I take them to scripture and I talk to them with their parent in the room and We go through and make sure they understand what they're doing before they receive the sign of baptism.

58:43

So this is All part of that. Yeah, it's it's it's you know again integrating them into the body

58:49

That's true. That's what we want to do I do like something. I don't know if you guys mind me saying this but there's a gentleman on our on our

58:58

Facebook post he said Satan and others all know except the church that the way to win a battle is to divide and conquer and And there is some truth to that.

59:07

Yeah that there has been The church is divided and that's another big issue

59:13

Is that people kids see the church as their parents church and my church is the youth group?

59:18

And I do think that that can be an issue Yeah, sorry, I mean

59:24

I keep apologizing So what

59:34

Dan and I don't know if you saw this but when you talked about you were a former youth pastor Dan and I both raised

59:39

Our hand and one of the things that that I heard as a youth pastor is you know What are you going to do to draw them in?

59:46

What are you going to do to draw them in? Of course, that's where that a lot of the pizza parties come in But but here's one of the objections to this concept and you know drawing people drawing kids in You you've got these kids that have unbelieving parents unchurched parents unchurched kids

01:00:06

How are you how are you going to draw them in or if they do come in? What are you going to do with them? How do you address that?

01:00:12

objection Couple of different Ways of because it's really not and again

01:00:19

It's not one question because the question of drawing is Different than the question of what do you do when they get here?

01:00:26

Because I do think the issue of drawing Can become sinfully pragmatic and we talked about pragmatic earlier, you know as as I don't remember who said it but basically that if you win them with a

01:00:38

Party, you have to keep them with a party and that's why so many churches are just perpetual party atmospheres

01:00:44

Because the the pastor elders whoever it is They know that when the party stops the attendance drops so they got to keep the party going

01:00:51

And so I do think there's a problem with how we win people and if we win people

01:00:58

With the gospel then we keep people by preaching the gospel But if we win people with a pizza party or what and hey,

01:01:04

I love pizza I mean you can look at me but just look at any picture of me. You'll know that I've had my share I had pizza for dinner tonight, so I didn't

01:01:12

Pizza is not a problem and I don't you know I don't have a problem with the church that that that provides food when they meet.

01:01:20

I mean, I think that's fine Again, I don't have a problem with that. I think that it's the the bigger issue is

01:01:28

What are people coming for I don't know if you guys saw the tick -tock video I did about the phone call and It was a phone call the church where the guy, you know is like, you know, my kids are expecting six flags over Jesus That's what they're expecting that's the video that made me follow you okay, and it's and it's like yeah,

01:01:44

I mean that's that that's what people are They're looking for that. They're looking for the six flags over Jesus and you know

01:01:52

We don't provide that and because we don't provide that we are And because of our situation and this is where somebody may come at me hard because of our situation of being primarily

01:02:04

Churches their homeschool kids we don't get a lot of young people in our church that don't have families because That's not the culture that we tend to attract and somebody said well, that's wrong

01:02:18

You should be attracting those young people We do have young people that come and what do we do with those young people that come?

01:02:25

We treat them like any other visitor who comes we welcome them We love them. We treat them like part of the family and we try to get them connected within the community there are there is a community here that they can be a part of whether they're 16 or 60 and so That's what we try to do.

01:02:42

I will tell you what I do. I my home is always

01:02:48

People are coming and going I was telling Dan earlier just before tonight I had a lady over who I'm who's just about to join in the just about to join the church

01:02:56

I had a back porch built on my home this year just so that we could have people over and have barbecues and have and so I Try to make myself and I know other members of our church try to make ourselves absolutely accessible and available to ministering to people and I don't care whether they're again 10 16 or 60 their people and You know one of the things

01:03:19

I think we do is we patronize kids by telling them the only way you can be ministered to if you Go over and sit with other people

01:03:25

Kids don't need to sit with other kids kids need to sit with adults who love them and care about them and are willing to Speak into their lives

01:03:32

That's a thing that people might disagree with me on but I think that that um, you know When my when my kids were teenagers

01:03:40

They had adults around them. I'm talking about my adult kids They had adults around them that they could have conversations with and that they were there other teens in the church

01:03:49

But they were they had adults that they had were able to have conversations with and that that was a big a

01:03:55

Big difference in their life was that they felt like part of the community There's a there's a local ministry here where I live and they minister at the the murder meals the abortion meals and What they do is they partner with local churches and And this ministry and those local churches they will minister there at at the abortion clinics and if if they

01:04:26

Let's say when when someone The the person doesn't go through with abortion they will link them up with one of their with one of their partnering churches and and someone at that church a family at that church will

01:04:40

Kind of like kind of adopt that that mother and child or that mother father and child and and That's what that ministry looks like and and I'm thinking why can't we adopt that?

01:04:54

Within the church as a concept not just for those who are considering abortion, but those who?

01:05:02

Need that kind of help in any area of life who come to our church who are motherless who are fatherless who are parentless or or any any scenario, but we we adopt them and And we come alongside them as a community as a as a family

01:05:19

I thought what you know, what a wonderful concept that our churches should adopt Yeah, I think so and we have encouraged that we've encouraged especially among our deacons because we have four good solid male deacons

01:05:31

Who are who are godly men they raise their families and and lead their families and we've encouraged them

01:05:36

Hey, if you see a young person, especially a teenager who comes in this church man, reach out to them Have them sit with you.

01:05:43

We one of the things I hate to see is I hate to see Anybody come to the church and sit all by themselves and again,

01:05:51

I don't care if they're 16 or 60 sitting all by themselves I want our people to reach out and say hey come sit with my family.

01:05:58

You're all by yourself today Come sit with us worship with us when the table is served If you're a believer receive the table with us, you know

01:06:05

These are this is what you know, because we we do allow as long as they're believers and they're not under discipline from another church

01:06:10

They're allowed to take communion with us. So we we do that and it's part of weekly worship. So yeah

01:06:24

What does it draw children what draws young Children young men and it's not to make it soft and easy loving caring with challenging even being hard This is what draws and makes people

01:06:34

Marines seals through this point Our gangs even they are challenging it now for a bond a camaraderie

01:06:43

That draws also the fact that you can depend on one another, you know We we should have that in our churches and it reminds me of the passage that we were that our pastor preached on this morning

01:06:56

Matthew chapter 11 and Jesus was was asking them Who were you looking for?

01:07:03

somebody soft Good They were talking about John the Baptist, you know, who are you looking for?

01:07:10

You're looking for somebody soft going to the King's Palace. John the Baptist is not soft and his comment just reminded me of that type of Personality that and how we train up our men not to be soft but but strong and courageous

01:07:27

Absolutely, Dan you up Sure I Think we're getting to the bottom

01:07:38

Sure. Um So just give us an overview of Your church of a family integrators.

01:07:46

You've given us bits and pieces here. Give us a whole No 30 ,000 foot view of No, if you were to tell me what a family integrated church should look like in an elevator ride

01:08:01

What do you got okay Well, first of all, I would say that And this isn't limited to a family integrated church

01:08:09

I would say church structure from a biblical perspective is Relatively simple Christ is the head of the church

01:08:15

Christ governs the church through his word. His word is to be interpreted and applied by his elders which have been recognized by the church as gifted men who fit the qualifications of first Timothy 3 in Titus chapter 2 and Those men are to be supported by a group of men known as deacons and those deacons are to minister to the body as we are training the body to minister within itself as the word tells us that the pastors teachers evangelists are given to the church for the equipping of the

01:08:41

Saints for the work of ministry and so Ultimately the structure of the church is that you have gifted men who have been given by God to the church to instruct the church to minister within itself

01:08:53

Okay, so that was quick. So so so again, this is Ecclesiology Huh get the foundation, right?

01:09:00

Ecclesiology is important understanding the role of the elders the deacons and the body the body is to serve in gift -based ministry meaning every person is going to have a different spiritual gift and those spiritual gifts are to function within the body as God gives those gifts in first Corinthians 12 as well as Romans 12 tells us what those gifts are

01:09:16

We can talk about you know charismatic gifts and things like that a different time but ultimately we know that there there are functioning gifts within the body that are happening and and the primary giftings are gifts like instruction and administration and mercy and things like that and we see these gifts being functioned within the church and so as long as you have those as long as you have people in the church who recognize what their spiritual gifts are and they're functioning according to those spiritual gifts, then nothing will ever get undone and And and when

01:09:44

I say nothing, I mean nothing will get undone Because that's what gift -based ministry is.

01:09:50

I write about this in my book biblically functioning Church The the if the church is all functioning according to their spiritual gifts

01:09:57

God has given to each church the people that are needed for the ministry at the time that the church is

01:10:03

Functioning at that time and so in that regard if everybody's doing what they're supposed to do and this is a picture

01:10:09

We use all the time. There's there's three different ways to be on the boat You can all be rowing in the same direction you can be rowing against the direction or you can be not rowing at all and our goal is that everybody's rowing in the same

01:10:20

Direction and if you have people who are rowing in the other direction They need to be rebuked if you have people that aren't rowing at all

01:10:26

Then they need to be encouraged But everybody eventually needs to start rowing in the same direction and as long as we're all rowing in the same direction

01:10:32

Nothing will get undone and that includes ministry to children and everyone else. So you get your ecclesiology, right?

01:10:38

then everything else will fall into place and what it will look like is it will look like you have fathers and mothers who are ministering to their children

01:10:45

Communities coming together and instructing one another in the ways of God and also the the things that need to be taught and the elders will be

01:10:54

Overseeing this and ensuring that everything gets done as it should and in line with Scripture the deacons will be ministering within the body and ensuring that no one goes without the ministry that they need and And it's a beautiful thing and I'm not saying we're there yet We always say we strive to be a biblically functioning church

01:11:11

There is no perfectly biblically functioning church including ours But that's the goal is to get there get our ecclesiology, right and everything else will will fall into place

01:11:22

We'll let Becky have the last question But I I like how you ended up there and I and I always say that this goes without saying

01:11:29

But I just wanted to have you confirm it this family integration thing it's not something that you're doing or your church is doing because it's it's a

01:11:38

Fad or it's a church growth model you you're seeking to be biblical Yeah, no, no, no, and that's that needs to be clearly said this has not helped growth

01:11:50

This is I mean, honestly, you know, I don't I don't I'm a pretty fun person.

01:11:57

I enjoy, you know, like I said, I was a youth leader I I know how to attract people using the the models of the world

01:12:05

I don't want to do that But I'm not saying everybody and I'm not saying other people are I'm just saying that's something that I don't want to do and Becoming family integrated did not endear us to people

01:12:15

It was something that caused many people to say I don't want that in fact the joke on the phone call that that that tick -tock video is

01:12:24

The guy says you you want my kids to sit with me the whole time. Have you seen my kids?

01:12:30

Do you know have you seen little Johnny? He is, you know, and I've had that conversation I've had people say to me directly.

01:12:36

Have you met my kids is like no, but I assure you my friend They are much more able to be discipled than you believe.

01:12:45

They're more able to be discipled than you imagine Can you you understand that a six -year -old?

01:12:52

Can sit through a sermon and listen, maybe he won't understand everything But he can come up to his mom afterwards and ask questions

01:13:00

I've seen it happen and it's a beautiful thing to have a six -year -old who sits through a 50 -minute sermon and Is able to ask questions and I said not every child like I said some children have

01:13:13

You know, like I said, my daughter has autism. So there's there there are situations where you know, some accommodations have to be made

01:13:21

But you know, it's amazing what kids can do You I'm gonna let Becky have the last question and you keep bringing up Is it okay if I share that video real quick before we end the program?

01:13:31

No, please if you got it Let me uh, let me try to pull it up here Hello, this is the local church.

01:13:45

How can I help you? Yes, we'd love to have your family worship with us this coming Sunday. That would be great

01:13:50

Well, we are a family integrated church, so we don't have a children's church No, your your children would sit with you the whole time.

01:13:58

Yes the whole time. No, I haven't met your children No, I'm not familiar with your previous church

01:14:05

Okay, they were sort of like six flags over Jesus, okay What exciting studies do we have going on?

01:14:12

Oh man, we well right now we're doing a study of numbers. No, not the

01:14:17

Enneagram number No, not your angel number the book of numbers

01:14:22

Yeah The fourth one. Yeah Hello Hello Okay, I have to give a quick background that That is a combination of three different conversations that I have actually had

01:14:43

The last one about the book of Numbers was hilarious I had a lady come to our church and she said can

01:14:49

I talk to the pastor? So she came into my office to talk to me and she said I'm so excited about what God's doing with the youth in this

01:14:55

Area and I want to hear what God's doing with youth in your church and and I said well right now we're studying the book of Numbers and She said what

01:15:03

I Said yeah, are you our young people are doing a verse -by -verse study of the book of Numbers and she said you're kidding.

01:15:12

I Said no. No, that's that's kind of what we do here We teach the Bible and she goes there's got to be more than that and I just remember thinking

01:15:22

Wow So the Enneagram thing I just threw in there as a joke But but that conversation when

01:15:27

I said we are studying the book of Numbers She was floored like that was just absolutely unreal to her

01:15:33

Has she come back? Well, she was she wasn't even she wasn't looking for a church She was a local like I think she was part of a bigger church and she was just trying to connect some churches and she

01:15:44

Was wanting to know what what? Big things were happening in it at big at small churches.

01:15:49

What's the big thing happening at this small church? Cuz you know, we're a small church 80 people, you know, what big things going on here

01:15:55

Well, we're studying the book of Numbers that can't big thing. Yeah Well for her it was not for her

01:16:01

There's got to be more to that story is what she said. There's got to be more going on than just that No, that's what we're doing well,

01:16:07

I was having a conversation a couple hours ago with with a relative and It's a sad state of affairs, but when you can't celebrate

01:16:17

Conversions and baptisms anymore you celebrate your programs and ministries and yeah, it's kind of what was going on.

01:16:24

It sounds like So here's here's Becky's question Do you have any encouragement for those parents who are still in the young kids?

01:16:33

foxhole like they feel like all they're doing is going in and out of service to discipline and The same one or two kids for the whole time and feel like they are making church feel like a drudgery instead of a joy

01:16:48

Yes My wife has been there and I wish she was joining me on the program tonight

01:16:54

Becky because I would It would sound much more genuine coming from her than me

01:16:59

Because she would say this to you and I believe I could speak for her. She would say it's worth

01:17:06

The it's worth the struggle. It is a struggle and nobody's saying it's not nobody's saying it's easy it is a struggle and it's hard and kids are hard and in the same way that we have to train them in in in how to Not soil their diapers and in the same way we have to train them to not eat and get the food all over the floor when they eat we also have to train them to sit in church and that is hard and And if if you're in a church where the people love you

01:17:37

Then those people will be patient with you as you go through this hard season and and I have a niece who was in a church where they weren't patient with her and and I I'm not gonna mention the name of the church or where it's at But but she she called my wife and she said she said

01:17:56

I'm in church and I want to be in church And I want my daughter. This is my niece Olivia's beautiful, baby

01:18:02

I want Olivia with me, but they don't want her in there they told me they want her in the nursery and That's the hardest thing

01:18:12

I can say Becky is that they're going to be Sometimes people in church who don't want to be patient and I don't know the answer to that other than to pray and talk to your pastor if that's the problem that you're having but if you are in a church where people support you and love you a

01:18:27

Couple of practical things would be my wife has a bag. She calls her her battle bag and it really is this bag of It's it's coloring pages and crayons and some things that help the kids during the service because yeah

01:18:44

An hour and a half is a long time for a kid. And oh, there's my wife Jennifer Don't don't quick celebrate small victories aim for 15 minutes 20 minutes

01:18:52

And yeah, you may have to get up a few times but honestly having that battle bag having that that prepared material with you and sit in a place in the

01:19:02

Congregation where you can whisper to your children and it not be a huge distraction if you're kind of if you're if you're if you're

01:19:08

Able to sit closer to the back that might be helpful for some people or if you know that there are older people with hearing aids or that might be a

01:19:15

Distraction for them maybe sit away from them Be be as cognizant as you can as to that but understand it's not gonna last forever

01:19:24

It's not gonna last forever. It really isn't and and it's worth the fight.

01:19:31

That's that's all I can say is it's worth it It's worth it when you have a six we have again a nine -year -old a seven -year -old and a five -year -old all of them can sit through An hour and a half service and it's because my wife and I tribute this a hundred percent to my wife

01:19:45

My wife has been diligent to sit with them and love them and and discipline with them then when they needed and it's still not perfect But they are able to do it and and we just encourage that Praise the

01:19:57

Lord. Well, we Dan and I I guess I want to speak for you Dan we Really appreciate

01:20:03

Keith you being all with us. We we appreciate learning from you hearing some insights from you as as we grow in this and We we learn about how

01:20:14

God would have us to be and do and what church should look like So we we really appreciate you joining us.

01:20:19

Um, oh We've got some more advice here. Oh The survival kit

01:20:25

I called it a battle bag Yeah, have a survival kit. That's it. Yeah my wife

01:20:31

Yeah Yes, they're Yep, that's Miss Indy. She Miss Indy brings her grandchildren and same thing.

01:20:38

They sit in there the same ages as my little ones They sit in the whole time and she's a wonderful example as a grandma.

01:20:44

Yeah, amen Amen, if if you are one of our listeners or or watchers for the truth and love podcast

01:20:51

We would encourage you to look Keith bosky up and the conversations with the

01:20:56

Calvinist podcast with YouTube Facebook Tick -tock Support him.

01:21:02

I think he would really appreciate that. And if you don't mind Keith, I would say if you are a

01:21:08

Listener or a watcher to brother Keith and in his ministry Check us out and and support us if you would we would really appreciate that as well.

01:21:16

So let's end on a very positive note Keith I'm gonna ask you if you would would you share the gospel with us?

01:21:23

And when you finish Dan, would you close us in prayer? Sure absolutely, if you're listening to this and you don't know the gospel one of the most important things that you can understand in your life is

01:21:34

That you were created in the image of God and that you have value because of being created in his image but at the same time every one of us is a sinner and what it means to be a sinner is that we've broken

01:21:45

God's Law and by breaking God's law we have made ourselves an object of God's wrath

01:21:51

But the Bible says that God 2 ,000 years ago sent his son into the world to receive the wrath

01:21:58

For those who would trust in him when Jesus died on the cross the Bible says all of the wrath that God had stored up for the believer was poured out on Jesus Christ and Jesus was perfectly righteous.

01:22:11

He never sinned not once in 33 years I don't understand how that is because I can't go 33 seconds But Jesus went 33 years without sinning and when he died his righteousness

01:22:22

Became the righteousness of the believer and the Bible tells us the Apostle Paul wrote that I stand having a righteousness

01:22:28

Not of my own which comes from keeping the law but a righteousness which comes by faith in Jesus Christ So right now if you're outside of Jesus Christ, you're unrighteous.

01:22:38

You're a sinner But if you would place your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ If you would trust in him and his finished work on the cross, you will receive not only the forgiveness of your sins

01:22:47

But you will receive the positive righteousness of Christ whereby you can stand before the

01:22:53

Father Adopted into his family and made part of the kingdom of God and if you've never done that I pray by God's mercy that he would open up your heart and Give you the gift of faith that you would be able to repent of your sins and trust in his son

01:23:09

Let's pray There my father God we thank you for the time that we had together talking about your church and your word we pray that we would all seek the scriptures be taught by the

01:23:22

Spirit and go about doing church the way that you have called us to do that we would be obedient and Trusting in your gospel the entire way.

01:23:31

We pray that We would all be drawn closer to you That we would trust more and more in your gospel each and every day and that you would continue to build your kingdom

01:23:41

And that you would come quickly. We love you Lord in Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen Thank you everybody for watching and listening.