March 4, 2019 Show with Dr. Barry York on “Hitting the Marks: Restoring the Essential Identity of the Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth

who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this fourth day of March

2019, and I'm delighted to have back on for part two of a

discussion that we began a number of weeks ago.

We have Dr. Barry J. York returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to

discuss part two of Hitting the Marks, Restoring the Essential Identity of the Church,

which is also the title of a recently published book that is now in print with Crown Covenant

Publishing.

Dr. Barry J. York is President and Professor of Pastoral Theology at Reformed Presbyterian

Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio, Dr. Barry J. York.

Thank you, Chris.

It's great, and if you could, for those of our listeners who

missed you the last time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, refresh the memories

of those that heard you, and those that did not hear you, please inform them about Reformed Presbyterian

Theological Seminary of Pittsburgh.

And we

plan

on

repeating

this

website,

but

rpts

.edu

is the

website

for more

information.

On Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

And one interesting fact that I try to remember to bring up every time I'm interviewing

somebody connected with the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is that they were

the first denomination in the South to oppose slavery and to

allow integrated worship services and Bible studies.

Am I right on that?

That's right.

We actually

just had...

Praise God.

Well, let's pick up where

we left off in.

Our discussion.

There were a number of things.

I mean, the subject matter for your book, Hitting the Marks, Restoring

the Essential Identity of the Church, that subtitle is so rich and deep

that it would take months of shows to actually cover

every aspect.

In fact, it would probably take a lot longer than that.

You could probably just have a show every day perpetually that discusses the

Church of Jesus Christ and the essential matters involving the Church.

But let's start off with an issue that we have not addressed in our previous interview.

What is the historical differences between the way the Roman Catholic.

Church and

the

Protestant

Church define the Church?

And

when

they went

to the

standing of what

rulers...

Now,

they'd stop

there, and

then

they say

this.

And to clarify a couple of things, when we as Protestants

refer to our Catholicity or being a part of one true holy Catholic Church, we are

obviously talking about the universality of the Church, that it's global, those that

are called from out of every tribe, tongue, and people, and nation.

It has nothing to do with being connected with the Roman Catholic Church.

That's right.

Right.

And there is something very different about the way Protestants have

historically viewed the Church.

And whenever I use the word Protestant, especially if I am within the

earshot of new believers or people who are not even Christians, because we do have

people in those categories in the Iron Trip and Zion Radio listening audience.

We even have Muslims and people of other religions listening.

But there is something very idolatrous about the understanding of the Church

that the Church of Rome possesses.

And wouldn't you agree that when a

person, whether they are Catholic, Protestant, or neither, is hearing statements,

whether verbally or in papal encyclicals, or they're reading it in the Catholic catechism, a modern Catholic

catechism, they really have to contrast modern

ideas, even modern ideas of the current Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis,

with the Council of Trent and other dogmatic statements.

Because there are many statements and teachings that swirl around today under the name

of Roman Catholicism, even from the Vatican, that are not dogmatic statements and

therefore could be the personal opinions of those making the statements, even the Pope.

We have to go back to Trent, because there are many people who are ecumenical, for instance, who get angry with me

when I point out that I believe that anyone with a false gospel is not my true brother or

sister in Christ.

And in order for us to know what the dogmatic gospel of the Church of Rome is, we have to go back

to things like the Council of Trent.

Those gathered there in unanimity declared that those who

have, even though they didn't use the word Protestant, they explained the Protestant gospel in all

aspects of it and anathematized those that believe those things that are

uniquely Protestant and in opposition to Rome.

They anathematized us, and that is still a binding, or should I say, those are still binding anathemas.

Even today.

Right, and the

Council of

Trent

clearly anathematized

those who believe in.

Salvation by grace alone through faith alone, and those who believe, like we do, that

good works are necessary, but they are an evidence and a fruit of saving faith.

They're not an agent.

Of saving

faith.

Yes, they

believe

they're...

Right, and of course they anathematized or.

Cursed to hell those that... they curse to hell those that do not

participate in their idolatrous rituals and rites, or at

least those who oppose them, such as the praying to

saints and venerating of saints and venerating of Mary in particular, and even statues,

images, and relics attached to those saints.

And I'm going to give out our email address for anybody who wants to join us on the air with a question of your own about

the church.

Our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA,

and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on the subject matter we're discussing

today, and you don't want to identify yourself.

I can understand that.

Perhaps you're a pastor and you disagree with your denomination or the majority of those in your

congregation about the issues we're discussing or other similar matter.

Perhaps you're a Roman Catholic and you even object to what my guest is saying, but you don't want to identify yourself.

I can understand those things.

So you may remain anonymous if it's something personal and private, but if it's not,

please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Now, from your studies, which reformers helped in the development of the marks

of the church, and I think that two of them are going to be very recognizable names

to the vast majority of people listening, but two may not be.

There are two men that are sort of forgotten heroes amongst

the masses at least.

Of course, people who are well studied in church histories, especially the Reformation, will

recognize these names, these two names out of the four, but I think many people, if not most, when they hear those

names will be drawing a blank.

These will be new names to them.

But if you could, give us these four.

Heroes

of the

faith

that

you're

referring to.

You do

go back to the

massive place?

Yes.

So the two men that I was referring to that are not widely known to your average Christian today,

even amongst many who are professedly Reformed, would be Martin Bucer,

spelled B -U -C -E -R, and Francis Turretin, and they should

become a lot more acquainted with those two great men of God if they are not already.

We are heading into our first commercial break.

If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Did you know that all believers are priests?

In 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes Christ's church as comprising a

chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that

you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

So if you're a Christian, you're also a priest.

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students Andy Woodard serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching,

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

Hello, my name is James Renahan and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

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I hope to hear from you soon.

God bless you.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Dr.

Barry J. York, and he is the president of Reform Presbyterian Theological

Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

This is our second discussion that we began a few weeks ago.

This is part two of Hitting the Marks, Restoring the Essential Identity of the Church.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen gmail

.com.

By the way, before I forget, I just want to let you know the good news that this Friday, God

willing, March 8th, for the full two hours of the show, we are going to be

blessed with the presence of Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries again.

These days, with his busy schedule, his opportunities to be my guest are few and far between, but

we are so thrilled with every opportunity that we have to have my old friend going back

to the early 1990s, Dr. James R. White, on the show.

He's going to be discussing the recent document that was signed by Pope Francis

and a world -renowned Muslim imam, so it should be a fascinating discussion.

But today, if you'd like to join us with a question about restoring the essential identity of the

church with our guest, Dr. Barry J. York, send us an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if

you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Dr. York, you use a target diagram in your book as a diagnostic tool for

churches to evaluate their ministries.

Can.

You explain this

to our

listeners?

Yes, and again, those aren't,

there are many,

many

diagnostic

tools from

that

shall

radiate

other,

that idea of

these

related to that

would be maybe if you could,

from

there, we

could do in

the book,

the congregation,

we

have been

interacting with people in the community,

I began to notice, to

begin to hear what was

really on their mind,

it

doesn't

necessarily,

yes, I have

friends and

acquaintances

that

have done

this

very same

thing.

You described, and it disturbs me because I know that they are setting up idols, even if

it's unconsciously, just as the Church of Rome has done, these are just different idols, they would

prefer going to a church or becoming a member of a church

that is huge, has money for Broadway level

theatrical performances and music and lots of programs for the kids,

but may have very heretical teaching or very shallow teaching, a teaching that

does not go any deeper than the very minimal

teachings that one must believe in order to be deemed a genuine Christian, and they would prefer

that, even if they themselves believe in the same beautiful and

glorious doctrines that you and I do, they would prefer the glitz and the glamour and the

size of a church over these very important things that you and I

share, it's a real tragedy, isn't it, and do you think I'm overstepping the bounds by saying that very

often this is nothing more.

Or less

than idolatry?

No, I

don't think

so.

Yeah,

I think

it might be

wise to

do

what you just.

Suggested while you were speaking earlier, to highlight those

three marks of the Reformers.

Of

a

true

church

and

also

the

marks

of

a

faithful

church.

Yes,

so

of

the

gospel.

Now

you

were.

Contrasting essential with faithful before, unless I misunderstood you, as far as the marks.

Yes,

I

would say

that's

a

fact.

Yes,

for

instance,

you

could

have,

just

to

clarify

this.

Distinction that you were making between essential and faithful, you can have someone

say, I am going to remove my name from membership

at this church that I believe has biblically faithful sound doctrine that has a

confession of faith I agree with, because this other church has poured love upon me

so much more, but they deny the deity of Christ and the Trinity.

They allow homosexuals to become members, and in fact, they ordain homosexuals.

They perform same -sex marriages.

But I'm still going to go there, because they have really poured love on me and they have a remarkable

ministry to the homeless.

They have a soup kitchen and all those things that seem to me more Christ -like, so I'm going to

fellowship with them.

Would that be somewhere where you're in the orbit of what you're talking about, how someone might wrongly

favor things that you have under the heading of faithful over and above the value of those things

that are.

Essential?

Yes, in

either or.

It

shouldn't be

that we're

essential.

And a

person

can obey

God by

not.

Yoking him or herself to a false church

and strive to make the positive changes in the congregation where he or she is a

member that is faithful doctrinally, rather than yoking themselves with a false church and

joining in on what they do.

That is right.

In other words, if your church doesn't have a ministry towards the poor that you think is adequate, then you

can start one, God willing, of course, if you can convince the elders and deacons to do such a thing.

But that's more likely going to happen than transforming the doctrine of a

apostate mainline liberal church, where you're going to get pastor

and elder boards to renounce the heretical and damnable things that they

have as core beliefs.

Yes, that's virtually what we have

to do.

Right.

We are going to our midway break right now.

In fact, what I'm going to do is I'm going to read a question before we go to the break, and then you can

answer it when we return.

We'll give you more time to think about it.

But a colleague of yours, Dr. George C. Cipioni, adjunct professor

at the Biblical Counseling Institute at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, he has a

question for you.

What is the single biggest roadblock that prevents churches hitting the

marks?

And of course, as I said, I'll have you answer that when we return.

This is an elongated break because Grace Life Radio, a 90 .1 FM in Lake City,

Florida, has to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to their area with their own

public service announcements and commercials.

So during this break, they air their announcements, whereas we air our own commercials

and so on that are heard globally everywhere other than Lake

City, Florida.

So if you could take this time and use it wisely

by writing down questions for our guest today, Dr. Barry J. York, on the church,

on the importance of the church, and also write down the information provided by our advertisers,

because as I constantly remind you, we depend upon the advertising

dollars of our sponsors to exist, and they are more likely going to remain

our advertisers if you patronize them.

If many people in our listening audience begin to patronize our advertisers

much more frequently and heavily whenever possible, that is going to be a key factor,

obviously, in our advertisers sticking with us and supporting us.

So please write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can do that, so that you can more frequently

and successfully patronize them.

And of course, write down a question for Dr. Barry J. York and send it to chrisarnsen at

gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if

you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dr. Barry J. York after these messages from our sponsors.

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Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS

Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth

of holy scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of scripture

and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching,

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Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology.

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I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth

of Holy Scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture,

and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well -grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

to all of God's people.

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Did you know that all believers are priests?

In 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes Christ's church as comprising a

chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that

you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

So if you're a Christian, you're also a priest.

Now you can find the newest styles in Reformed and Protestant apparel at citizenpriest .com.

Citizenpriest .com specializes in Christian -themed t -shirts and clothing, especially for

Reformed Christians.

Citizenpriest .com's merchandise is purposefully scripture -based and meant for the edification of the

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Let everyone know that you stand firm on the doctrines of the Reformed faith by wearing apparel from

citizenpriest .com.

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Citizenpriest .com today.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today

for the full two hours with just about an hour to go is Dr. Barry J. York, who is the

president of the Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and

today we are addressing a book of his, one of his most recent books published by

Crown and Covenant Publications, Hitting the Marks, Restoring the Essential Identity of the Church.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. Barry J. York, please submit it as soon as possible

to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and

please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA,

and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Before we return to Dr. York, we just have some important announcements to make in regard to

upcoming special events.

First of all, I want to remind you that Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries

returns as a guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio after a long absence.

We look forward with bated breath to hear what Dr. White has to say in regard to the

recent document signed by Pope Francis and a very world -renowned imam

in the Muslim faith.

So make sure you mark your calendars for Friday, March 8th from 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time to hear this

interview and get your questions ready for Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

And then, coming up March 15th and 16th, the Sanctification Through

Suffering Conference is being held in Freehold, New Jersey.

It's a conference being orchestrated by our friends at Striving for Eternity Ministries,

and the roster, the speaking roster, includes Justin Peters, Frank Mullis, Joe

Suozzo, and Colleen Sharp.

Colleen is a co -host of Theology Gals, a podcast for

Christian women primarily.

And if you would like to attend this conference, Sanctification Through Suffering, March 15th through the

16th in Freehold, New Jersey, you can go to strivingforeternity .org,

strivingforeternity .org.

And when you do, please make sure you mention that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnzen on

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And then, coming up after that, our friends at the Banner of Truth are having their

East Coast Ministers Conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, on the theme, I

Believe in the Holy Spirit.

These speakers at the Banner of Truth East Coast Ministers Conference include Jeff Kingswood,

Terry Johnson, David Vaughn, who is a Reformed Baptist missionary in France, Dr. Stephen J.

Nichols, president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries,

Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas.

If you would like more information about this very important conference, I Believe in the Holy Spirit, the theme of the East

Coast Ministers Conference of the Banner of Truth, go to banneroftruth .org,

banneroftruth .org, click on events, and then click on East Coast Ministers Conference.

I intend to be there, so I hope many of you will approach me and greet me and let me know that you listen to the show.

And please pray that I also introduce many new listeners to Iron Trip and Zion Radio

by virtue of being present there over lunch and other times of

fellowship and rest and relaxation during breaks during the conference.

Please pray that the Lord draws many people providentially to allow me to introduce

myself to them.

So remember, it's banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org, click on events, and then click on East Coast Ministers

Conference.

They do have a number of conferences that they conduct.

It just so happens that I will be personally attending the East Coast Ministers Conference, but if you want to attend the West

Coast Conference, if you happen to live on the West Coast, or the UK conferences that they have,

because we do have listeners all over the world, including the West Coast of the United States and also the

United Kingdom and many other places, at least 26 other countries that we know of.

But if you see a conference that's closer to where you live that you want to attend, click on that.

But I hope that many of you will attend the one that I am attending, God willing, East Coast Ministers Conference,

May 28th through the 30th.

That's May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at the Elizabethtown College.

Banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org is the website for you

to find out all the information that you need.

Please tell the folks at the Banner of Truth that you heard about them and the conference

through Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Another one of my favorite conferences that is coming up in December, December 19th and 20th to be

precise, the Founder, I'm sorry, the Foundations Conference, which is being held in

Manhattan.

And this is a conference being conducted by Sermon Audio.

And you know, if Sermon Audio is conducting a conference that you can rely upon the

fact that the speakers at the conference are going to be theologically sound, and

there's not going to be any wishy -washy nonsense going on at a Sermon Audio conference.

They have actually strict standards regarding who they permit to air their sermons

on Sermon Audio.

This December 19th and 20th, the roster includes Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, who you just heard moments

ago.

You heard his voice promoting sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, New Covenant Church, NYC in

Manhattan.

He is one of the speakers, Dr. Stephen J. Lawson of One Passion Ministries.

Reverend Jeff Thomas, a very well -known name to Reform people, both

Reform Baptists and Presbyterians.

He happens to be a Reform Baptist, just recently retired from the pastorate in Wales.

And I really look forward to hearing him preach again.

He is a phenomenal preacher.

Richard Caldwell Jr., Rev. Ormond Tomassian, another phenomenal name that you need

to know.

A phenomenal man, or brother in Christ, I should say, because I met him two years ago

at the Banner of Truth conference, and I was blown away by this man's gifts,

the power of his preaching.

Very young man in the faith, or should I say in the pastorate, and yet very, very powerful,

he is going to be a name that globally people will become

very familiar with because I think he's going to become world -renowned because he is just

remarkable.

Rev. Ormond Tomassian.

Andrew Quigley is another name on the roster, and Paul Washer was just recently added

to the roster.

I'm so thrilled to hear that news.

Paul Washer.

If you don't know who he is, you better get familiar with him because he is phenomenal.

Thefoundationsconference .com is the website where you can go to register.

Thefoundationsconference .com, and you'll have all the information that you need.

I would register quickly if you intend to go because it's a very small venue.

They only hold about 200 people.

So I hope to see you there.

I will be there, God willing, and I'm looking forward to meeting many of you at The Foundations Conference, and

that's thefoundationsconference .com.

Last but not least, if you love Iron Chirp and Zion Radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves, you

love sharing the free downloadable MP3s with family, friends, and loved ones, you love hearing the guests and

topics that we offer on this show that very often are rarely or never heard anywhere else but this show,

please go to ironchirpandzionradio .com, click support, and then click, click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that way.

You can also send in a check via snail mail the old -fashioned way to the address that appears on your screen when you click

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Never, ever, ever siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church in order

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Never do that.

Never put your family in financial jeopardy to give to Iron Chirp and Zion Radio.

Those two things are commands of God.

Providing for church and home, providing for my radio show is not a command of God.

But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands,

please donate as heavily as you can and as frequently as you can to Iron Chirp and Zion Radio by going to ironchirpandzionradio

.com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

And we have some bills that urgently need to be paid, so we plead with you to please,

if you can do this without violating those two commands I mentioned, please go to

ironchirpandzionradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

If you're not a member of a local church and you're not prayerfully seeking for one, and that is a

biblically faithful local church, you're living in rebellion against God.

You might need to rectify that.

In fact, our whole program today is on the importance of the local church.

So if you need a local church, you need help finding one, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world.

I've already helped find quite a number of people in our listening audience, biblically faithful churches near them.

So please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put, I need a church home in the subject line or

something similar to that, and I will help you find a church, God willing.

If you'd like to advertise with us, we need your advertising dollars very urgently.

So please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put, advertising in the subject line.

As long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe

identically with me, but as long as what you're promoting is compatible with what I believe, we will help you launch an

ad campaign as soon as we can do that for you, because we really do

need your advertising dollars to exist.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com, or should I say chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Send that email to me and put advertising in the subject line.

We are now back with our guest, Dr. Barry J. York, President of Reform Presbyterian Theological

Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

And if you want to send in a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at

gmail .com.

And please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And as you know, Dr. York, before the break, we had a question come in from one of

your colleagues at Reform Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Dr. George C. Scipione, the

adjunct professor at the Biblical Counseling Institute at Reform Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

And his question is, what is the single biggest roadblock that prevents churches

from hitting the marks?

Well, I'm glad that somebody began to discipline that dog in the background.

So we quickly heard the dog stop barking, so we're

thankful for that discipline.

But on a serious note, I know that I bring this up a lot when the subject of discipline

arises on our show, but I just have a word of encouragement perhaps is the best

way to phrase it in regard to discipline.

I'm urging everybody listening who either is being told they need to be under

discipline in their own congregation, or perhaps they know that they're committing a sin

privately, that if it were to be known in public would warrant their discipline.

I want to urge you not to be terrified of discipline, not to

allow that to provoke you to flee from the church where God has ordained you to be a

member.

Church discipline, I believe, saved my life, because I was years ago under church discipline because of my

return after 18 years of sobriety to a serious addiction to alcohol.

And I don't use the word addiction to lessen the fact that it was a sin.

I'm just using a term that is commonly used.

Drunkenness is probably a better way to praise it, more biblical.

But I just thank God that I was put under discipline by a loving church whose

elders cared about my soul more than about my feelings.

And so I was under church discipline and was eventually restored to

fellowship and good standing with that church after going to Hebron Colony Ministries in Boone,

North Carolina.

And I strongly recommend anybody who is going through the similar sin that I

was guilty of to contact hebroncolony .org, h -e -b

-r -o -n -colony .org, and find out more about Hebron Colony Ministries.

Cannot stop singing the praises about this wonderful ministry in Boone, North

Carolina.

And please pray.

I'm obviously not going to mention the individual's name, but please pray for a friend of mine

who knows that he needs to

enroll into Hebron Colony, and he has all the information.

He has said that he is going to submit to the council of

pastors that are insisting that he goes there, and he seems to be enthusiastic to

go there to turn things around in his life by the grace and mercy and power of the Holy Spirit.

But you never know.

I mean, people do fall out of grace, and they wind

up starting off well and then abandoning the proper path.

So please pray that this person does not do that, and that they follow through and go to Hebron Colony.

And that website again is hebroncolony .org.

I apologize for that detour.

There, Dr. York.

That's quite all right.

I shared in the book that my first...

Yes, and even if you are listening and you have been yourself excommunicated, you've got to remember that was an act of

love, even though you may not recognize it.

And of course, there are churches that are either false churches or churches that abuse

their authority and have excommunicated people for unbiblical reasons, and we know that.

And we even know that people who have been excommunicated for biblical reasons, sometimes it is done improperly.

But always remember that God intends it as a loving act, and that you should repent

and be restored to the body of Christ in membership.

Being excommunicated or being under church discipline is not the end of the road if

you repent and obey Christ and do all that is required of you to be

restored to membership.

So we are going to our final break right now.

And by the way, Dr. Scipione, I don't know if you already have a copy of Hitting the Marks,

Restoring the Essential Identity of the Church, but Crown Covenant Publications has given us copies of this

book to give away.

And if you don't already have it, email me your full mailing address, and it will be shipped out to you by our

friends at cvbbs .com.

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

So just send us your email if indeed you don't already have the book and would like to receive it free of

charge.

Thanks to Crown Covenant Publications and thanks to cvbbs .com for shipping it out to

you at no charge to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

But we are going to, as I said, our final break.

If you have a question, please submit it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

I'm going to read to you another question before we go to the break, therefore you could give it more time to

reflect upon it.

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York asks a question, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not 100

sure what Tyler means by this question.

But he says, is the fact that a believer is united to Christ by faith a

major role in identifying the Church?

So I'm not really sure what he means by that.

Maybe he means by that is the fact that believers are united

to Christ by faith in a particular congregation a major role in identifying the

Church.

But I'm not really sure.

Maybe you can better understand that.

Maybe Tyler could send us a second email to clarify what he means by that question.

But don't go away.

God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages from our.

Sponsors.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen.

And this is our last 15 minutes or so with our guest today dr barry j york president

of reformed presbyterian theological seminary in pittsburgh pennsylvania we have been

discussing his book which we are going to continue to discuss for this last quarter hour hitting

the marks restoring the essential identity of the church.

If you want to join us with a question do so immediately.

Because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Uh tyler in mastic beach long island new york clarified his question.

He says that i was right basically uh he's speaking about the members of a

church uh what i meant to say the individual members of a congregation.

Also the spiritual unity being manifested in the congregation.

So i think that probably has a lot to do with what you were talking about before discipline.

Because if people are just running rampant in a church living undisciplined lives living like the devil

himself and not being corrected or disciplined or excommunicated uh

this would be a very poor sign of a church being a real.

Church of christ

we have susan

margaret.

Oh by

the way tyler

give us

your full mailing

address.

Because you've won a free copy of the book that we are addressing hitting the marks and

if you give us your full mailing address that will be shipped out to you uh.

Compliments of cvbbs .com carmelin valley bible book service and also compliments of crown and

covenant publications who donated the books to begin with.

So please make sure we have your mailing address.

I was margaret and dauphin county pennsylvania says.

I have a number of friends and acquaintances who say that because

church membership is nowhere to be mentioned in the bible and because we are saved by grace alone through faith

alone in christ alone they are not required to join a church.

They feel very comfortable either bouncing from congregation to congregation to congregation without

submitting to membership or not going anywhere at all just having private bible studies in their home with

friends and praying and so on.

How do we lovingly chastise and rebuke.

These

friends

and

loved

ones

and

acquaintances

who

might

have

this

mindset.

Well

thank

you.

Susan margaret if you have not already won this book from our last interview

uh please send us our or your email address.

I'm sorry please send us your mailing address so that cvbbs uh can

ship that out to you at no charge to you or to iron sharpens iron radio.

And once again we thank the fine folks at crown and covenant publications who publish this book

for donating these copies for our listeners who have questions today.

Of course listeners who did not win one during the first interview that we did

a number of weeks ago on iron sharpens iron radio.

As you know uh dr york mark dever has a very helpful and fruitful ministry called

nine marks in addition to being pastor of the capitol hill baptist church in washington dc.

And i notice you interact with his teaching quite a bit in your book.

Obviously mark dever speaks of nine marks but you have only.

Three

in your

book

what

is

the

difference

in your

approach.

Mark devers.

Let me

just

plug a

previous.

Interview here on iron sharpens iron radio.

Since you mentioned a book that i think is a very valuable book for our

listeners to possess perhaps even especially for pastors to possess you mentioned james

bannerman's book the 19th century gospel minister james bannerman the church of christ

a treatise on the nature of powers ordinances discipline and government of the christian church published by

banner of truth.

Uh i conducted an interview uh with dr carl truman who wrote the forward to that book

uh the at least the banner of truth edition of that uh because it was written 100 years

before our brother carl truman was born.

So i was hoping.

You were going to say you interviewed bannerman.

That would have been a very interesting show indeed.

But i would have been guilty of necromancy if i.

And but uh if you want to uh type into the search engine of past

shows podcast on iron trip and zion radio .com you will hear my one hour interview with carl

truman on the church of christ.

A treatise.

A treatise on the nature of powers ordinances discipline and government of the christian church by

james bannerman.

And then second hour also related to that topic earl blackburn uh he is

discussing his book jesus loves the church and so should you.

So if you uh type in bannerman b -a -n -n -e -r -m -a -n.

Into the search engine you will find that interview link.

And you can also i strongly urge you to purchase the book that i just mentioned from

cvbbs .com carmelin valley bible book service.

They definitely have any banner of truth uh title that you would like to

purchase at their residence there on in carlisle pennsylvania.

So uh go to cvbbs .com and ask for the

church of christ by james bannerman b -a -n -n -e -r -m -a -n.

Uh well as far as your book brother uh i wanted to ask you a question

before we run out of time.

And before we uh before i ask any other additional listener

questions uh how might churches use your book.

Hitting

the

marks

make

this a number

of

friends.

But to

that

they're

each chapter

and uh

to remind.

You you can get the book from our friends at cvbbs .com.

They also carry titles published by crown and covenant publications so you could go to

cvbbs .com which stands for cumberland valley bible book service and you can order that book.

If you want to get a list of other titles published by crown and covenant publications

you can go to crown and covenant .com crown and

covenant .com and they have a whole assortment of books that will be helpful to you.

Uh let's see.

Here we have another uh listener.

Uh this is let's see and it's an anonymous listener.

We have time for one more question.

I think uh the anonymous listener says what do you think

are signs that you should leave a church where you are a member.

I know many people leave churches for unbiblical reasons but what do you think are biblical

warrants that somebody either must leave or has the liberty to.

Leave

that

peter

makes

and

we are

now out

of we

are not out

of

time

brother

and

i

want

our.

Listeners to know that the reform presbyterian theological seminary in pittsburgh has a website

rpts .edu rpts .edu.

I want to thank you so much dr york for being our guest today.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are

a sinner.