Jerusalem Jones

Steve Ray’s “Jerusalem Jones” and the Mary Debate

But before we get back to good old Norm, I wanted to spend a little time with a recent Catholic Answers appearance, as in yesterday. And I thought, someone in the channel had a really good idea as to how we should start any segment where we're talking about this particular gentleman.

So I think we'll do it. Yes, indeed, folks, it's the Indiana Jones music, but it's for Jerusalem Jones. Yes, Jerusalem Jones, Steve Ray. How would you like to get your theology for a man wearing a hat like that?

Yes, indeed, that's what happens when you listen to Steve Ray on Catholic Answers Live. Thank you very, very much for that. You know, I grabbed that during the opening music of this program. And I was sitting there going, come on, little doll, don't fail me now.

Because sometimes it just stares at me and goes, I'm not going to do that. No, you're asking way too much of me right now. But we got it to work. Anyhow, I was listening. I didn't get to listen to much of yesterday's program yet.

So James Swan, go ahead and listen to it, because I'm sure there's lots more later on that I could play clips from. But right toward the beginning, he mentioned that he's been a Catholic now for 15 years.

And Steve Ray likes to talk about how he was an ignorant Baptist. And unfortunately, he doesn't make the connection there that he was an ignorant Baptist. And therefore, what he thinks Baptists actually believe generally isn't, because he was an ignorant Baptist by his own confession.

So anyway, he was talking about that. And the subject was Mary. So I just wanted to respond to this one particular portion right at the beginning of the program. For you.

Mariolatry Versus a Baptist Reading the Bible

Mary was a big problem for our conversion, because when we looked at Catholics, we got the perception that they worshipped Mary more than God. They prayed to Mary more than God. They loved her more than Jesus.

And it almost appeared to us that Mary had become the fourth person of the Trinity. You know, the numbers don't work right. But that was the perception that many evangelical Protestants get. You would look in the door of a church, and there are people lighting candles and kneeling in front of a statue to Mary.

And from our perception, in evangelicalism, pray is almost synonymous with worship. Those two are very almost indistinguishable. Pretty much the same are synonyms. And so when you see somebody praying in front of a statue kneeling down, you say, oh, there it is.

They're worshipping Mary instead of Jesus. And you walk away, and you're disgusted with Catholics. Right. Mariolatry instead of mariology. Yes. And that's the way it's perceived until you understand it.

Now, it's funny, Patrick, because if you'd have looked in my bedroom window 15 years ago, what would you have seen? You'd have seen me kneeling in front of an open Bible on my bed as I prayed and read through the Psalms or some of the passages of the Bible before I went to bed at night.

And there you would have said, ah, look at Steve. He's worshipping the Bible. He's praying to the Bible. Bibleolatry. Yes. And it's a matter of perception. Because if you came to me and said, Steve, are you worshipping that book?

I would have said, of course not. I'm using it as a devotional tool to help me and assist with my prayers to God.

Alphonsus de Liguri and Marian Devotion

Now, let's just ask a simple question. Is there really a parallel between praying, as he says before, an open Bible and what Roman Catholics do with Mary? I just popped open the file, the electronic file, of my little book, which unfortunately is no longer in print, Mary, Another Redeemer.

And I just opened up to the chapter 7. And I just want to read you a few things here. And let's see if there is a meaningful parallel between this doctor of the church. Now, Steve Ray is not even in the clergy.

He has no official standing whatsoever in the Roman Catholic Church. But that's not the case for many of these individuals, including Liguri, who is a doctor of the church. Alphonsus de Liguri, a doctor of the church.

His book, The Glories of Mary, 80 editions, I believe, over the years. And so significantly more representational of Roman Catholic theology than Steve Ray. But let's just listen to a few of these and see if you might detect a slight difference between a Baptist reading his Bible and then kneeling and praying.

He's obviously not praying to the Bible. He's not saying, Oh, Bible, save me. Now, if he did that as a Baptist, that tells you a lot about what kind of a Baptist he was. But that's not what's happening.

But that is what's happening in the prayers of the Roman Catholic, who is bowing before Mary and praying to Mary. Let's just read a few things here and see what happens. The praise of Mary is an exhaustible fount.

The more it is enlarged, the fuller it gets. And the more you fill it so much, the more is it enlarged. That if all the tongues of men were put together and even if each of their members was changed into a tongue, they would not suffice to praise her as much as she deserves.

And never lose an opportunity, either in public or in private, of unkindling in the hearts of others those blessed flames of love, which they themselves burn towards their beloved queen. That to honor this queen of angels is to gain eternal life.

That this most glorious lady will honor in the next world those who honor her in this. Rejoice, my soul, and be glad in her. For many good things are prepared for those who praise her. And he says, The whole of the sacred scriptures speak in praise of Mary.

The devout Thomas Akempis represents to us Mary recommending a soul who had honored her to her son and saying, My most loving son, have mercy on the soul of this servant of thine who loved and extolled me.

That as the most sacred womb of Mary was the means of salvation for sinners, the hearing of her praises must necessarily convert them and thus also be a means of their salvation. O blessed are they who bind themselves with love and confidence to these two anchors of salvation, Jesus and Mary.

Certainly they will not be lost. Let us love Jesus and Mary and become saints. We can neither expect nor hope anything better. Hail, O queen, O mother of mercy. Hail our life, our comfort, and our hope.

We, the banished children of Eve, cry out unto thee. To thee we send up our sighs, groaning and weeping in this veil of tears. Come, then, our advocate, and look upon us with those pitying eyes. And after this our banishments show us Jesus, the blessed fruit of thy womb.

O merciful, O compassionate, O sweet virgin Mary, you tell me, folks. If there is not a world of difference between Roman Catholic mariolatry and bowing before an open Bible and praying to God when you're not praying to the Bible.

Jesus isn't some mere aid in devotion. The Bible isn't some mere aid in devotion. In Roman Catholicism, Mary is not some mere aid of devotion. She is the object of devotion. So the only way that parallel would work was if Steve Ray was bowing before that Bible and lighting candles before that Bible saying, O Bible, believe me, you're one of the anchors of my salvation.

You are the one who will be merciful to me, etc., etc. And nobody will do that. Yeah, so there you go. Once again, Jerusalem Jones not exactly accurate in what he says about his former life.

The Difference Between Devotion to Scripture and Devotion to Mary

You know what I think about when I, it strikes me that these guys do a lot of spinning to try to work their way around that person kneeling at the statue of Mary concept. Well, we're not worshipping, we're just praying.

Mike, you read Liguri and I had to help you do some of those, verify some of those quotes from Liguri when you were writing that book. It drove me crazy reading this stuff. It's not easy to cite it. When I hear Steve Ray make a claim like that to try to distance himself and the modern church, I don't know what his mindset is, however he wants to describe it.

Would he pray that prayer with Liguri?

Well, that's just it. You know, I've told this story many times before, but I remember very, very, very, very clearly when I was in the studio on WEZE in Boston with Jerry Matatix. And I read that prayer, which also is found in Liguri, but I found it in this little pamphlet.

And I just found it blasphemous. I found it offensive. It talked about deliver me from the world, the flesh, the world, the devils, and Jesus, my judge. And I mean, no born-again, regenerated believer could ever even contemplate the blasphemy of that prayer.

And yet you were given indulgences for it. And I read that on the air, and I fully expected Jerry Matatix to respond with, oh, James, you know, that's not official teaching. That's just popular piety, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And when he looked through that forest of, just like we have right here, microphone stands. When he looked through that forest of microphone stands at me and he said, Mr. White, I pray for the day when you can pray that prayer with me.

I about fainted.

Now, my recollection is that in the Marian Doctrines debate, I think that radio interview took place before the Marian Doctrines debate. It did, three years ago. My recollection is you pointed that out to the audience, and he stepped up and reiterated that point.

Yes, he did.

There's no question about it. But that's Jerry Matatix, and we all know Jerry Matatix is not an Orthodox Roman Catholic anymore, right? So we can just ignore everything Jerry Matatix ever said, even when he was on staff at Catholic Answers.

I think the reality is that Steve Ray would be forced to admit the Roman Catholic orthodoxy of Liguri's book and its statements. I would love, once again, to get these guys to engage these subjects in a meaningful fashion in debate.

I mentioned last week when I played the Purgatory section by Tim Staples, I think a lot of folks would find a debate between myself and Tim Staples on Purgatory, and does the Bible teach Purgatory? Tim, just let me know the time and the place.

I have to be there. I think I'm going to send him an email along those lines, because listening to his massacre, 1 Corinthians 3, I would just really think that it would be very useful to folks to hear Tim Staples answer direct questions.

Now, we'd have to do a primer on how to do cross-examination with Tim, because he hasn't figured that out yet, as we all may recall. That in cross-examination, you ask questions, you don't take the time to make further statements, and you ask questions.

You don't ask two-minute questions. And the fact of the matter is, Tim knows that. He just didn't care to follow the rules of the debate at that point. But once again, a standing open challenge to Tim Staples to debate that, or Steve Ray.

I would love to debate Steve Ray on Mary. That would be so very enjoyable, but that is also about as likely as, well, a lot of other debates I can think of that are never going to take place. Because once again, they've got absolutely nothing to gain from that, and everything to lose.

But there you go. There's our Jerusalem Jones update. And we'll come back to that at another time in the future. Maybe James Swan can get me some more clips from that particular one, and we can take some time to listen to some more Jerusalem Jones, your source of really bad theology, S &D.