Beyond the Basics 8: The Church (pt. 4)

Father, we thank you for this morning, for the beauty of the sunlight and the fair weather that we've had.

Lord, we praise you for this opportunity to look into your word, to see what it says about your church.

Father, I pray that you would bless our time and just remind us of your love for the church in Christ's name.

Amen. Well, I just got back from California yesterday afternoon and had a great time at the

Shepherds Conference. And for those of you who have not yet registered for the

Steve Lawson Conference, all I can say is the first standing ovation of the entire conference did not happen until Friday afternoon and that was when

Steve Lawson got done preaching. The place went bananas. So it was great.

He was absolutely incredible. So I would highly encourage you to register for that.

We've been talking about the church for the last several weeks and I was thinking about it last night while I was trying to sleep and I just thought, if we look at the

New Testament, if we were to study it as an overview, we'd have the four Gospels, we'd have the establishment of the church in the book of Acts, and then what we would be left with are a lot of letters, many of which are written to churches and some that are written about how to set up and run a church.

Much of the New Testament is about the church. And I don't think it's something that we really focus on as we should typically.

We've been talking, last time we talked about civil disobedience, the Sabbath, foot washing, that's something we really practice here, baby dedications, para -church organizations.

And I was just going to say, some of you have my photocopy notes instead of the original copies and I've written in there just in the margin notes,

Harold Camping, and I don't know if I've said anything about Harold Camping before, he's kind of a fascinating individual.

I heard him on the radio several years ago, we were going to visit a friend in a

California prison and he was on the radio, I was tired and everybody else went inside into the store and I was just outside looking for something to listen to and I came across something that sounded

Christian. So I started listening and it was this, I didn't know it was Harold Camping, but I'm going wow, he sounds pretty good and he's saying a lot of the right things and it was

Harold Camping who has missed the second coming, he predicted it, when was that, anybody remember when it was supposed to be?

I think it was 88 or 89 or something like that and then he kind of hedged his bets because in his book where he wrote about this, he said well, if it doesn't happen then, it will happen in 2012, so I think he was kind of giving himself a little buffer.

But he says a lot of good things but on top of missing the end of the world a couple of times, his other problem is that he says no one should attend church, no one should give to a church and of course they should all send their money to Harold Camping.

I just find that pretty funny. Okay, so we talked about parachurch organizations which are groups that exist typically to fill a perceived gap in what the church is not doing and so we would have,

I mean that's how the YMCA started, that's how the YWCA started, Campus Crusade for Christ, etc.,

etc., and what we talked about is the tendency for those organizations to drift. I specifically mentioned

Fuller Seminary, notes, okay,

Dottie says he also leaves out Baptism and Communion which would be pretty bad, of course if you're going to do away with the church and Jesus has given the church two ordinances,

Baptism and Communion, then you're probably going to skip those, but good, I didn't know that, good, but we talked about Fuller Seminary and about how, started by Charles Fuller who was probably one of the most well -known broadcasters on radio, radio for those of you who don't know dominated before television came along, and he was an evangelist on radio and very popular and he had the resources to start a seminary, so he did and the seminary started out very well and then he sent his son over to England to get a degree, his son learned that the

Bible wasn't really true, came back, infected the seminary and that seminary now is as liberal as you can get, and the reason

I mention that under the parachurch banner is because Fuller Seminary, like many seminaries, is not accountable to any church, and when you're not accountable to any church, no matter what you think, you are going to, no matter how firm your statement of faith and your doctrinal statements are and how you dot every

I, cross every T, you're going to drift. And so now we're on page 33, page 33, down at Roman numeral

F, or Roman numeral 4 and then subsection F, down towards the bottom of the page, should

Christians care about social justice? Should Christians care about social justice?

There is a movement by the way, as an aside, let me just say, all the stuff from the

Shepherds Conference is available online and I'll just throw this number out because we probably won't talk about it in the regular service because I won't be getting out there, but John MacArthur, they opened the

Vault, Grace To You Vault, so you can now listen to all of John MacArthur's sermons online for free.

Download them all. And he says before they made it free, he said they charged $3 a download, and he said they typically had about 4 ,000 downloads per month.

He says since they made them all free, they've been getting 1 million downloads a month because I think we made the right decision.

1 million downloads per month. Anyway, all the Shepherds Conference sessions are also available online, so I would encourage you to listen to those.

And one of the issues that John MacArthur discussed was this idea of what evangelicalism, he talked about evangelicalism in general, actually, or was it

Phil Johnson? It all just kind of blurs together after a while. Anyway, evangelicalism as a movement probably started in the 1940s and then developed in the 1950s with Christianity Today and Billy Graham and Harold Ockingay and a lot of other men, but the point of this is that nowadays evangelicalism has become very concerned with ending poverty, ending world hunger, the greening of the earth.

How many of you have heard of the Green Bible? Okay, what's in the Green Bible? Yeah, Mark Arnold said, and let me just take it a step further, it highlights the things that have to do with the earth, that's true, but like if you have a red letter edition of the

Bible, all the words of Jesus are in red, well now if you have a Green Bible, all the things that have to do with the earth are printed in green.

I wonder if they would ever put the red and the green Bibles together so it would look like a red and green

Christmas Bible, but that's just me. Anyway, the point of it is there's this emphasis, and by the way it has to be printed on recycled paper, but there's this emphasis on saving the planets, and while it's right to think we are stewards of the planet, because we are, the question is, and I think

MacArthur did say this, he says, you want to keep people impoverished, in fact

I remember this, he said, you want to keep people impoverished, be concerned more about the welfare of the planet than the welfare of people.

He says, don't develop resources, don't spray DDT, and he gave the example of DDT, why?

Because DDT, somebody wrote a book and said it causes cancer, and so they stopped using it.

What's DDT used for, Steve? Malaria, because it kills mosquitoes.

So they stopped using DDT, and guess what happened? Millions of people in Africa mostly, and throughout some other parts,

I think probably the subcontinent of India and other places in the tropical part of the world died from malaria, and now guess what they've discovered?

DDT doesn't cause cancer, but are they using DDT? No. And when you think about it, let's not drill for oil, it was fascinating to me, not to get political, but California had this big budget problem, and they have billions and billions and billions of dollars worth of oil sitting off their shore, and natural gas, they wouldn't even talk about that as a possibility, and he says, here's the problem.

If you suppress technology, you suppress the development of resources, poor people will always be poor, because they're going to be the last ones to benefit.

If there's a limited number of resources, who gets it? People who have money. And he says, if you don't like what mankind is doing to this world, just wait until you see what

God does to it. This is a disposable planet, it's going to go away.

God is ultimately going to destroy it. Now does that mean that we should just pollute willy -nilly? No. It just means that we should smartly use the resources we have to alleviate the problems of this world.

Now, can we alleviate poverty? How do we know that?

Jesus said, the poor will always have... I mean, if you look at it historically, has there ever been a time where poverty has been eliminated?

The answer is no. We keep trying, but it's not going to happen. But should we be concerned about social justice?

Let's see what the Bible has to say about that. What is social justice?

Maybe we should define that a little bit. Yes, we should, Pat says.

I agree. What is social justice? Anybody?

What's that? Equity. Fairness. Right? Should we be against oppression?

Would it have been right for Christians to, say, be in favor of civil rights for African Americans?

Yes, that sort of thing is absolutely right.

Let's look at 1 Timothy 5, verses 3 -8, and we'll discuss more about social justice.

1 Timothy 5, verses 3 -8. And who has that? Bruce. What's Paul instructing

Timothy here about? About the care of widows.

Why, Mrs. Cooley?

Pure religion is taking care of widows and orphans. Okay? Why? Why would that be a good thing,

Bruce? Yes.

There was no one in that society, there was no one more at risk than widows and orphans because they had no one to take care of them.

If the family did not take care of them, then the church was to take care of them, and there was no welfare system as we have today.

You know, the Roman Empire wasn't going around issuing food stamps. There was nothing like that.

And so he says, listen, you need to take care of the widows among you. This is a good thing to do.

It should be the family's responsibility, and then ultimately it falls upon the church.

And this was a concept from the Old Testament even. You know, God often got upset with Israel.

Why? Because they weren't taking care of the vulnerable among them. This is a biblical concept.

Why? Because I think it represents the mercy and grace of God as he looks after those,

I mean, we're helpless apart from God. And in that same way, we reflect the love of God when we take care of those who are unable to take care of themselves.

Let's look at James 1 .27, which Janet referred to. And I'll read that.

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

It is a good thing to take care of widows and orphans. Again, they were helpless. They could not go out and work.

They were not capable of caring for themselves. Social justice can take on more than that.

I mentioned racial relations. When we think about it, are we all equal at the foot of the cross?

And the answer is yes. How do we reflect that in our attitudes and in our pursuit of social justice?

Well, I think it's right for all men to have equal rights. I think the founding fathers had it right that all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.

Among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. God gives those rights and he gives them to all men without favoritism.

The fact that we don't always reflect that as a society is no reflection on God.

It's a reflection on the sinfulness of man. Any other thoughts about social justice?

Yes, Steve. Good point and that gets me back to where I originally wanted to go.

Thank you for bringing that. Evangelicalism has kind of lost its way in many ways. When we have so much pursuit of ending hunger, ending disease, ending poverty, which are things that are good, but let's put it this way.

If I save the lives of 20 million people in sub -Saharan

Africa, is that a good thing? Yes, it is. What's that? For now.

But more important that we preach the gospel so that they may be saved. If I could somehow feed someone constantly, if I could just give them food, that's fine and I've saved their physical life, but it's their spiritual life that's more important.

There are groups that try to do both. There's a parachurch ministry called, what is it?

What's the one where you adopt the child? Christian Children's Fund is one.

Compassion International. Where they feed them and they give them certain things, but they're also focused on the gospel.

We want to give them spiritual food, not just physical food. We could easily say, what does it profit a man to be fed and then to lose his immortal soul?

We need to make sure that we give them the spiritual food. Social justice,

I would argue, is a diversion from the purpose of the church. The purpose of the church is to evangelize.

Social justice is important, but it is not the end all and be all. The end all and be all is to preach the gospel to every nation and tongue.

Excellent point.

Let me just put this in a true or false question. If everybody in the world was a

Christian, a practicing Christian, a faithful Christian, a biblical

Christian, would we have social justice? I believe we would.

I believe we would. She cites the example of Philemon.

His slave is no longer going to be treated in the same way.

Good point. Other thoughts about social justice? Yes, Bruce.

I think that's true. We could get into a big discussion about post -modernism. Post -modernism being the idea that truth cannot be known, nothing can be known absolutely.

Here's the disconnect. If you look at a poll, the vast majority of Americans would say that they're

Christians. But as Bruce is saying, if you look at their behavior and their knowledge base, there's a huge disconnect between those two things.

In other words, if you look at that same poll, I think you would find that maybe 80 plus percent would say that they're

Christians. And then something like, you'd probably be down in the 30s talking about those people who believe that the

Bible is actually true, literally true. And then if you ask them further what literally true means, you'd be much below 30 percent.

So probably about the 8 percent level would be my guess. It was fascinating.

One of the other topics that came up at the Shepherds Conference, MacArthur was talking about the

Genesis account. And he said, and I think I've cited this before, there are 105

Christian colleges in the United States that belong to this certain council that the

Master's College belongs to. And out of that, 105 Christian colleges, five of them hold to the literal creation presented in Genesis.

Five. Not very good. So what is a

Christian? Well, I think a Christian has to believe the Bible. Here's the key question.

If you believe that somehow evolution is allowed in Genesis 1, you have to take a non -literal view of Genesis 1, 2, and 3.

So then when does the Bible start being literal? When do you actually believe it? Please tell me so that we can start our conversation from there.

And it's not just Genesis 1, 2, and 3. You have to go through Job and the Psalms and all the other places where the creation account is given or referred to, even in the

New Testament. And so when do you start? And how do you deal with the places where, gee,

Jesus seems to refer to Adam as a real person. I mean, what do you do with those things?

So pretty interesting. Okay. Should Christians avoid certain kinds of food, especially during Lent?

I understand it is Lent. I don't even know what, who knows what Lent is? I think when

I was a kid I always said it was Lent. Is it the 40 days before, the 40 days of purpose before Easter?

Okay. And then I suppose the idea is a certain, how many know what the term, does anyone,

I'll put it this way so I don't embarrass anyone. Anyone know what the term asceticism is? Pat, what is asceticism?

Denying yourself all sorts of things. It's living a, and sometimes

I would say it is almost like a public display, but it could be as simple and as gruesome as crawling across broken glass on the ground to show how holy you are or to somehow earn

God's favor. But it could be as simple as, I'm going to, now hold your breath ladies, I'm going to give up chocolate for Lent.

Self -denial. And the idea of Lent is what? I'm going to sacrifice whatever it is, 40 days without email to show my dedication and devotion to God.

Does that make any sense? It's unbiblical fasting.

Why the 40 days by the way? What's that?

I think it was because Christ fasted for 40 days. Yeah, so 40 days and you know, he fasted for 40 days.

How many of us could fast for 40 days? Sometimes I wonder if I could fast for 40 days. I don't think we'd make it that long, not just because mentally it would be difficult, but I don't think we'd be able to do anything.

And we always have to keep in mind there's a difference between us and the Lord and that is, he was perfect.

He's God in the flesh. We don't have that kind of power, authority or holiness.

But anyway, should Christians avoid certain kinds of food? Should you eat that miracle manna from Sikkim?

Are there certain foods you should avoid? Let's look at 1 Timothy 4 verses 3 to 5.

And who has that? Okay, so every

Christian creature or every created thing is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude.

What exactly should we avoid eating? I think

Paul writes in another place, I believe it's in Colossians, talking about how that we ought not to let anyone judge us with regard to what we eat.

Exactly right here, Colossians 2 .16. Therefore, know not one is to act as your judge in regard to food or to drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or Sabbath day, things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

So what about that? I mean, and I'm especially concerned about that.

I mean, I grew up in a home where we were not allowed to, the

Mormon faith would say that you are not to drink coffee or tea, that you are not to, we weren't to drink

Coke or Pepsi or anything with caffeine in it. We also were not to eat on the first Sunday of the month.

Are those biblical concepts, Stephen? Right? In Mark 7 he says, it's not what goes into you that defiles you, it's what comes out.

Specifically talking about what you say. Why? Because that reflects what's in your heart.

That shows your spiritual condition. Nothing that you put in your mouth defiles you. Other thoughts about eating, drinking?

H, what overarching principle should govern our relations with other believers and unbelievers?

Philippians 2, 1 -4, a passage that we know well, and we can see the answer there, it is humility, my tie keeps wanting to turn around, which shields the microphone, that is really a cool effect.

Philippians 2, 1 -4, and who has that? Pretty. This is really a paradigm shifting mind blowing passage when you think about this, do nothing out of selfishness or empty conceit.

Well what about my rights? What about my self -esteem? What about my needs?

What's that? So? I mean it's almost like the next time somebody says, well that's not fair, what about me, what about mine?

You just want to go cite Philippians 2, 1 -4. It's not about us, it's not about us, our needs, our wants, our desires.

I mean if we were to track the entire life of Jesus, which we don't have time for this morning, would we see him saying what about me?

What about what I want? What about what I need? Or would we see him saying

I'm here to do the will of my father? That should be our attitude.

Are we going to do that perfectly? No, but our attitude should be other people come first. I don't see any hands, so I will move on there.

I think we understand that concept. However, I would suggest that if we all lived that way, that we would have very few conflicts within the body of Christ.

And our reputation within the community would be substantially enhanced. Point I, does a

Christian have to join a church?

Do you have to? I don't know.

I mean I can tell you what I think the implications of scripture are. It's pretty hard to say, let's just go through this, it's pretty hard to say

I submit to authority, but I'm not going to join a church. Let's look at Hebrews 13 .17.

Who has Hebrews 13 .17? Carl. Okay, so we have the concept of submitting to your leaders.

Why? Because they're going to give an account for your soul. Who's going to give an account for your soul? The mayor?

The governor? The president? Your senators? This is talking about the church leaders, for what they've done.

For how they've shepherded you. How do you obey them and yet say, well

I'm not going to spiritually join a body of Christ. I'm not going to submit to them.

I'm not going to do that. 1 Peter 5. You know this always gets a little bit tricky because is there a passage that says thou shalt join the church?

I can't think of one. If I could, I would put it in here. I think the implications of scripture are pretty clear.

1 Peter 5 .5. Who has that?

Go ahead. Okay, the implication here being younger men be subject to your elders.

Now it could just mean older, but I don't think if you look at the context, and context is good, just even back to verse 1.

Therefore I exhort the elders among you. He didn't mean old. He says as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ.

He was talking about the leaders of the church. Verse 2. Shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion but voluntarily.

Again, the implication, you can't have elders that you submit to if you're not part of a church.

Moving on to page 34. What else does it mean to join a church?

Well, 1 Corinthians 12 in the context of spiritual gifts, which we'll study here in a few weeks, we think.

Oh, sorry. Who has 1 Corinthians 12 verses 4 -7? Okay, everybody gets a manifestation of the spirit or spiritual gifts.

And notice what the purpose is there. For the common good. We need to be in service to the local body of Christ.

We're all gifted differently. And I'm not going to exhaustively study spiritual gifts because like I said, we're going to study it down the road.

But if everybody has spiritual gifts and they're for the purpose of mutual edification, for the building up of the body together, and we're going to see that the body of Christ, Paul uses the metaphor of hands, eyes, feet, ears.

Everybody has different gifts is the picture. And when the body functions together, it is a holy and awesome weapon in the hands of God.

When it doesn't, when it's all just left arms or what have you, you've got difficulties because it's not as efficient as it should be.

Everyone needs to serve the body. And realistically, logically, you cannot, there are certain gifts that you cannot expect to be able to serve the body with if you're not willing to join the body of Christ.

We're not going to have, for example, I don't care how gifted you are teaching, if you're not going to join the church, you're not going to be a teacher.

I mean, that's just common sense. Comments about serving the body in terms of employing your spiritual gifts.

Okay, mutual encouragement, again, reasons to join the church. Number three, mutual encouragement and corporate worship,

Hebrews 10, 23 to 25. And who has that?

Yes, Joey. You know,

I had a friend who was run out of his church as a pastor. And I talked to him a few weeks after that.

I said, well, you know, I can tell you're still hurting. Where are you going to church? He said, the church of the wrinkled sheets.

And I'm going, I think a lot of people belong to that church because they just can't seem to get going on Sunday morning.

They have other things to do. And I've talked to plenty of folks during the course of my life who said, you know what,

I don't go to church because I don't really need to. All I need is the Bible, the

Holy Spirit and me. Like that's some kind of substitute trinity or something. I don't know what that means.

But this is very clear. Why do we get together on Sunday? We get together to stimulate one another, to love one another, to push one another to good works.

And because it's the right thing to do. We don't want to stop assembling as the body of Christ. We need to come under the preaching of the word.

We need to corporately sing, to corporately pray, to corporately worship

God. We need this. I had one prof who used to say, the lone ranger

Christian is the dead ranger Christian. There's no such thing as a lone ranger. You can't do it.

And don't say, well, I have Tonto. I'm not going for that one. We need fellowship.

We need encouragement. We need sometimes rebuke. The body of Christ works best when it works together.

Okay. Let's really open up a can of worms. What about drinking alcoholic beverages?

What about drinking alcoholic beverages? First of all, I think it is important to notice that scripture always condemns drunkenness.

Say it again. Scripture always condemns drunkenness. Is it ever okay to be drunk?

No. It's a sin. Let's look at Proverbs 23, 19 and 21. I can't even give you all the details.

I had the strangest flight out to California. The weirdest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and when

I got to California, I was like, you know what? I would have rather had a screaming baby next to me on the flight out to California because I am quite certain that that baby during the six hour flight would have taken some rest periods.

This was just, it was miserable. I sat next to this young woman who then kind of maneuvered this young man from the back into the front.

And man, as soon as the turbulence stopped, the drinking started,

I was like, and it did not stop and things got ugly. Let's look at Proverbs 23, 19 and 21.

Who has that? Go ahead, Chris. Now I can speak from,

I almost said personal experience. I can tell you that that is true just by the fact that I have seen what drinking does to people.

Go down to, I don't know if you want to go to Skid Row, go to some place where the drunks hang out and just observe them and you will see that there are not a lot of rich folks down there.

They will do anything. The people who are standing on the street corners asking for money, the vast majority of them are addicts of some kind, whether it's alcohol or drugs.

It will consume and destroy your life. It will drive you away from, and I would include drugs, by the way.

I don't think drugs were as much of a problem then as they are now because we are so much smarter now than they were then.

Addiction, also known as sin, also known as being a drunkard or a drug addict, it doesn't really matter what the substance is, will drive you to do things that you might not do otherwise.

I told a woman once who was married to a drug addict, she was telling me, well, I put this in the safe and he can't get to it, or he's never stolen from thus and such.

And every single time she said, well, I'm certain he couldn't get to this. And I said, have you looked lately?

She said, no. She goes, I'll check when I go home. She goes home, she opens the safe and guess what?

It's empty. The person that she told me that he couldn't steal from, guess what?

He stole from. Well, he would never steal from his kids. Guess what? He stole from his kids.

It didn't matter what level she thought she could set up, his sin pushed beyond that and he did whatever it was.

Drunkenness will make you poor. If you are habitually drunk, you are high, involved with some kind of drug, it will destroy your life because you will begin living for that thing, that feeling rather than even typical things like greed or whatever.

Most of the people in jail are there, I would tell the guys, I go, you guys know that you're here for two reasons.

I mean, there are a lot of manifestations, sometimes it's violence, sometimes it's robbery, whatever it is, but there are two basic reasons they're there.

And those reasons are substance abuse and women, to be honest with you.

And so I said, you know, a lot of guys would find Christ in the jail and I'd go, well, that's good. Now let's see what happens if you keep

Christ when you leave here. Because in jail, while there certainly were occasions for substance abuse, they would find ways to do that.

It's a lot harder and there are no women there. We'll see how you do when you get out, when all the problems that you have come back.

So we looked at Proverbs 23, 19 to 21. Let's look at Proverbs 20, verse 1 and I'll read that.

Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.

And I'm telling you, the things this young woman had during the course of a six -hour flight, two vodkas, six beers, and a wine.

And she was drunk. And it was, yeah, it was a pretty incredible experience.

And, I mean, she, it was just embarrassing.

And this is what happens. You know, what happens when people are drunk?

They lose all their inhibitions, they do things that are shameful and they have no sense of shame whatsoever. Not that our society has much left at all.

But you get out even more out of control. There is really nothing worse in the world than drunk.

I remember when I was in the Army. I was stationed in Okinawa at one point and I was on loan to, because we were under this little tiny base.

I mean, you could walk the whole thing in 15 minutes. And they loaned me to Kadena Air Base, which was the big one where the

SR -71, this gigantic airplane. Anybody ever seen an SR -71 take off? It was a spy plane at its time.

I don't know what they use now, but it was the fastest plane in the world. And it was something else to watch take off.

I mean, it would just go up in the air like any other airplane. And then, at least this is what it looked like. It would just go like this.

It would just tilt up and then vanish. And you just go, what happened? It was just gone.

And it would create an earthquake worthy of Southern California. I mean, everything would shake for a couple miles around.

It was pretty wild. But they sent me to Kadena Air Base for a ride -along program.

So I'm riding along with the SPs, the security police, the Air Force police. And we had a call of a sailor trying to evade paying his taxi.

So we went out and we found the guy hiding in the weeds. And he was drunk as all get out.

Now, he was really about half my size. And we handcuffed him.

We took him into the station. And I said, now, I'm going to unhandcuff you and we're going to put you in that cell.

Please don't do anything. I don't want to have to hurt you. Drunk people don't make good decisions.

And you're just not in control. And I'm quite certain he was feeling it the next day.

But it's just you lose control. And why? Here, Ephesians 5 .18

says what? Do not be drunk with wine. And then it goes on to say, but be filled with the

Spirit. Why? Because being drunk is dissipation. Here's the picture.

Being drunk with wine leads to a complete lack of self -control. And what are we commanded to do as Christians?

To be self -controlled. That's a fruit of the Spirit. That's evidence that the Spirit is working in our lives.

That's an evidence that we are Spirit -controlled. So to be drunk is always condemned in Scripture.

Why? Because it puts us exactly in the opposite frame of mind and the opposite spiritual condition that we should be in.

It's exactly the opposite. Now, I opened this can of worms and I'm going to close it really quickly.

And we can talk about it next week. Guidelines for Christians. Things to think about. Does wine have the same purpose as it did in Bible times and Biblical times?

I just use Bible times even though it's not correct. I don't think technically why because I didn't want to use two lines.

Does it have the same purpose that it had back then, Steve? Medicinal purposes.

Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. Why? Because it might kill some bugs that were in there, the alcohol itself.

They used to put wine in water because they didn't know about chlorine. And again, was it as good as chlorine?

No, but it might kill a few things. And the fact that it would kill a few things should tell you a little something about alcohol. Is it necessary?

Well, like I said in 1 Timothy 5 .23, that's where Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach.

And the answer is, is it necessary to drink wine? The answer is no. Is it a sin to drink wine?

Ephesians 5 .18, do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. Is it a sin to drink wine in and of itself?

No. It's a sin to be drunk with wine. Now, in case you're wondering,

I haven't had a drink in almost 15 years, so don't, you know, unless you count Nyquil. Number four, is it potentially habit forming?

Yes. I mean, we know this. We know that, and we don't fully understand, but some people are more prone toward, you know, alcoholism or being drug addicts than others.

So is it the best choice? Probably not. Is it potentially destructive?

Absolutely. Will it offend other Christians? It could.

Let's put it this way. Let's say, I'll just make up a scenario. Let's say you were a conference speaker and you were going to some country where they believed drinking was a sin.

If you were the big shot conference speaker, would then you, you know, break out the flask during the break and go, drink up boys!

Woohoo! No, because you've just shot your whole testimony. Even if they're wrong about it, that's not something you should cause them to stumble over.

Come on lads, drink up! No! Will it harm my

Christian testimony? Again, you know, is it possible that unbelievers might think, well, he's a

Christian and Christians shouldn't drink? And is that really where you want to make your stand? I have the freedom to drink.

Again, I don't think it's a sin to drink, but I think you always need to consider the situation that you're in.

I don't think it should ever just be a shoulder shrug. Yeah, I can do whatever I want without any concern for anything else.

And it really comes back to this. It's that Philippians 2, 1 -4 mindset. Do I have the right to drink?

Theoretically, I think you do. Is it always the best choice? Am I considering others?

Am I putting the needs and the views and the vision of others over and above myself?

I think that's a big issue there. And again, can one become an alcoholic?

Can one become a Christian? Can I become an alcoholic? I would prefer to use the word drunk, because alcoholic sounds like it's a disease.

Is alcoholism a disease? Some people might say yes, I say no. Why? Because the

Bible never refers to it as a disease, calls it a sin. And if you never drink, can you catch the disease of alcoholism?

I mean, it's the only disease I know of that you can just simply avoid. If you never drink, you'll never become an alcoholic.

All right, well, we can talk more about it. I'm sure that there'll be some concerns next week.

So let's close in prayer and enjoy our donut time. Oh, we have a...Dottie.

Yes. Okay. She says, and I have heard these kind of studies, you know, a little wine is good for you.

And then on the other hand, you know, then you hear flip sides where they say, oh no, wine's not good for you. Red wine is supposed to be good for you.

And then Dottie's saying that studies have said that dark grape juice will do everything that red wine will do.

So, I mean, certainly it's, I would think that grape juice is going to have more vitamins.

So it's got to be better for you in that sense. All right, well, let's pray. Father, thank you for this time, for your word, for the clear teaching about the church.

Father, I just pray that you would give us an attitude of humility, of wanting to serve others in all that we do, to consider the needs of others, to consider even doors that we might close or open based on our own behavior, to not think of our own rights, our own so -called needs, things that we want to claim to be our own, but to always put others first and to put your desires, your wishes before anything else.