August 23, 2016 Show with Bodie Hodge on “World Religions & Cults: Counterfeits of Christianity” PLUS Heather David Nelson on “Unashamed: Healing Our Brokenness & Finding Freedom From Shame”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 23rd day of August 2016.

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And we've got two guests on today for the very first time. The first hour we're going to be talking about world religions and cults and counterfeits of Christianity with Bodie Hodge who is a speaker, writer, researcher for Answers in Genesis, the ministry founded by Ken Ham.

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And then in our second hour we're going to be visited by Heather Davis Nelson who is a writer, counselor, retreat speaker, a pastor's wife, and she's the author of Unashamed, Healing Our Brokenness and Finding Freedom from Shame.

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But first for the first hour, as I said, it's my honor and privilege to welcome for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron, Bodie Hodge.

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Hey, it's great to be on the show. Well, Bodie, if you could, I very typically will ask my guests to give a summary of how they came to faith in Christ, what kind of upbringing they had, and what were the circumstances that God used to draw him to himself.

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Well, I'll tell you what, I grew up in a church and my mom would take me to Sunday school and things like that, and I really enjoyed that.

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And I was about nine years old when I made a profession of faith and received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

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And, you know, I was pretty excited about it. And, you know, it's one of those things where when you're growing up, you're kind of young, you understand the basics, but from there you can only grow.

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I was excited, so. Great. Well, eventually you wound up meeting

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Ken Ham and began working with his ministry Answers in Genesis. How did that come about?

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Well, a number of years later, I ended up teaching at a university. I taught at Southern Illinois University at Carbondale.

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And while I was there, I started teaching at a church, started teaching junior high kids. What happened,

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I showed up at a youth group one time and I'd kind of help out a little bit here and there. And one day they said, hey, go in there and, you know, you can teach these kids.

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So, you know, I went in there and I made it through a lesson. I came out and they said, you're the permanent teacher now. I'm like, oh, great.

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So, you know, I came out. So I actually went in and I said, hey, kids, you want to go through a book of the Bible? What do you want to do?

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And they said, hey, we got questions on evolution, millions of years, Big Bang, dinosaurs.

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And I thought, oh, boy, you know, you know what? I struggle with some of that myself. And so I went and I ended up getting some different books.

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And one of the books was from Ken Ham. And he'd put out a book called The Great Dinosaur Mystery Solved.

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And when I read that, I was so excited because he kept saying, let's just go back to the Bible, see what it says. And, you know,

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I really liked that. And I remember seeing a picture of him. And, you know, Ken Ham kind of looked like Abraham Lincoln. I knew a little bit about Ken.

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And years later, you know, I was running my own ministry and teaching with youth groups and things like that up in Peoria, Illinois.

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And I used Answers in Genesis website. And one day I hopped on and said, jobs. And I said, well, I wonder what kind of jobs they have.

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And there was a job answering questions, emails, mail, phone calls, things like that from a scientific and theological perspective.

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And, you know, I had a science background. And I applied and went through a pretty rigorous interview process.

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And I ended up getting hired. And little did I know that that Abraham Lincoln looking character's oldest daughter would become my wife later on.

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Wow. I just found that out for the first time right now. I didn't know that. Yeah, I married Ken's oldest daughter.

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Praise God. Well, definitely send my greetings to Ken. I've had him on this program before.

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I look forward to having him back on the program. And he has always been a modern -day hero of mine.

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And I also happen to be a young Earth creationist. So they seem to be fewer and farther in between to come by these days.

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Yeah, it seems like that sometimes, doesn't it? Yeah. And so I always have an open door for him and anybody on his team here at Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Well, obviously, there had been a point in your ministry where the focus of your interest shifted, at least temporarily, from the creation issue to world religions and cults, many of which are counterfeits of Christianity.

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And you have written this two -volume work, which is actually going to be added by a third volume,

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I understand, in October, God willing? That's correct. We're actually putting the finishing touches on the final chapter on the third volume.

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But just so that listeners can kind of understand, we put out a three -volume set of world religions and cults.

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And what we wanted to do was we wanted to break religions down into four major sections. And this is what a lot of philosophers and people have done.

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And the first is what we call counterfeits of Christianity, and that appears in our first volume. And that is any type of religion or cult that looks or acts very similar to Christianity, maybe a false messiah, or they want to add a book to the

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Bible, like the Koran wants to be added, essentially, as scripture, or with Mormons, they want to add some of Joseph Smith's writing and so forth.

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The second category is Eastern mystical religions. Think of Hinduism, Taoism, Jainism, New Age even would fit in that type of a category.

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The third breakdown would be the moralistic religions, and that would include mythological religions.

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Think of paganism, or Confucianism, Buddhism, even some of the old mythologies, like Greek mythology and things like that, where they have some sort of moral code.

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Sometimes they have some gods, sometimes they don't have some gods, but they just want you to live kind of a good life.

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And then the final fourth category are the secular religions. You might think of atheism, agnosticism, secular humanism, even things like post -modernism or hedonism, and that's going to be in the final volume that we're looking to get out sometime soon.

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Great. And just so I can announce the publisher's website for New Leaf Publishing Group, it's

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NLPG, that's N -L for New Leaf, P -G for Publishing Group dot com, and you can look up Bodie Hodge, B -O -D -I -E,

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Hodge, or World Religions and Cults, and you'll be able to find those three volumes there.

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And, well, wouldn't you say that in your research of all the world's religions that Christianity is very unique in that salvation is a free gift from God, it does not involve any type of merit on our behalf, although I'm sure you would agree that those who are rescued, delivered, redeemed, and saved by the grace of God do produce good works as fruit, as evidence.

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But would you say that Christianity is the only faith known to man where man is totally on the receiving end of this free gift from God?

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Absolutely. In fact, looking at a lot of the counterfeits in particular, they may mimic Christianity in a lot of ways, but usually one of the things they do is they make it a works -based type of salvation.

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But with the Bible, it's a free gift. We are saved by faith through grace. It is a gift.

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It's a free gift. And it's not by works that we're saved. And you know what? You're absolutely right. We do works because we love

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God. We want to follow after Him and do the good that He would expect from us.

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But we're in a culture where people want to work for things. They think that they can get to God by themselves, or they can get to this next level of nirvana or what have you, but they have it back to front.

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And what they need to do is get back to God and His Word and let God be the ultimate authority on the subject of religious, historical, and theological matters.

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Let me announce our e -mail address. If anybody listening would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Bode Hodge, our e -mail address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. If it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, we will honor your request.

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I understand that there may be even some people listening who are members of religions we are identifying as cults or something today and they really don't want to make themselves public in asking a question.

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I understand that, and so feel free to remain anonymous if that is your choice. It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Now, it's interesting how people will often want to believe that they are in some way meriting their eternal reward, whatever that may be, according to their own system of theology or ideology.

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But they're usually comparing themselves to people who are worse than they are. They're not comparing themselves to the martyrs.

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They're not comparing themselves to the disciples in the Scripture. And most of all, they're not comparing themselves to Jesus Christ, who is pure, righteous, and holy.

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And that's really what they need to be doing to realize that they are utterly bankrupt in their ability to in any way contribute to this precious work of salvation that Christ finished completely on the cross.

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Yeah, that's exactly right. We need to be comparing ourselves to the absolute perfect example.

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If I were to compare myself to my brothers or my sisters, well, I'm always better. I think a lot of people have that mentality.

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They say, you know, I'm pretty good. And what they're doing is they're doing a false comparison to other people.

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You know what? All of us have sinned. We've all fallen short. Christ, the perfect example, he was without sin.

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He is the perfect example. And that's what we need to compare ourselves to. And I think a lot of the

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Jews in the first century really struggled with Christ's teaching on that because he's pointing out, hey, here's what the law says.

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But it was so much more than what they actually had anticipated. You know, when it comes to situations like adultery, you know, in the

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Old Testament, you know, the Jews, they knew, hey, you're not supposed to commit adultery. Well, Jesus goes so far as to say if you've even looked at a woman with lust, you've already committed adultery with her in your heart.

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It goes to show how sinful we really are. And that's what the Bible reveals. That's what Christ revealed.

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All of us are filthy rags, not one of us. All of us deserve to stand in light of God based on our own merits.

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The only way that we could stand before God and look pure and righteous is if we have

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Christ's righteousness imputed or transferred to us. And that's what happens in the

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Christian faith. When we receive Christ as our Lord and Savior, what happens is Christ's righteousness, his perfection, is then transferred to us so that we may stand before the

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Father and be blameless only through the blood of Jesus Christ. Now, when you were compiling the list of specifically the cults, the ones that are counterfeit

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Christian religions, were there any where you weren't certain you should include them?

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Like, for instance, I know that the late Walter Martin had some issues or questions about whether to include the

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Seventh -day Adventists at one time. And there are certain groups that give apologists a reason for pause.

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They don't want to be overly critical over certain groups that may have a lot in common with biblically

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Orthodox Christianity. For instance, there are disagreements amongst

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Christian apologists on groups like the Seventh -day Adventists and other groups like that.

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Did you reach any point of wondering who to include or whether to leave certain groups out?

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Well, you know what, we really had to think about that, too. I understand Walter Martin's hesitancy on certain issues, too, and we had to deal with that as well.

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And one of the things that we decided to step back and look at is let's look at the trends of what is going on.

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For example, there are some great denominations that came out of the Reformation, and of course, ever since the

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Reformation, churches have split, and you've got this group and that group, and they vary on different things. There are some groups that started off as phenomenal denominations that now you almost step back and question, well, where are they at right now?

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Because they've deviated so much from the Bible, and so they're going in the wrong direction. And what we did was then we turned around and we compared that to a group like Seventh -day

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Adventists. If you look at Seventh -day Adventists, it starts off with a prophetess, Ellen White, that starts to take them away from the

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Scriptures. They start to reinstitute vegetarianism and just a number of different issues,

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Sabbath, rest, and things like that. And so if you look at it from the perspective of, hey, she's a prophetess and they're going in the wrong direction, that's cultic.

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Now, here's what's happened with SDAs, a lot of SDAs in the mainstream, they've actually moved away from Ellen White being a prophetess.

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They've started to go back more to the Bible thing, hey, let's get back to the Bible and see what it teaches. And you know what, we want to encourage that.

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So one of the things we were stuck with was we got SDAs who are moving in the right direction, and we want to encourage it.

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And then you also have people who are in mainline churches who are going in the wrong direction, and we want to discourage that.

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We want them to get back to the Bible as well. That should always be the authority. So yeah, we had to deal with that kind of thing, and so we do talk about it within our overview here of the counterfeits of Christianity.

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That would be chapter 6 in that first volume. So we do have to explain that.

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We do have to look at that. And of course, those are the things that make it difficult. Do you do a whole chapter on this, or do you explain the issues?

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And so we opted to explain the issues on that one. Yeah, and I think that Seventh -day Adventists are really a very broad spectrum of views.

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They are not really a monolith, I don't think. I have met Seventh -day Adventists who are very orthodox in their explanation of their gospel, which would be in harmony with mine, and they would say that obedience to the

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Sabbath is not something that merits their salvation and so on. But then they would even say that there are groups within the

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Seventh -day Adventist movement known as the Reform Movement that are really trying to be more in line with Ellen G.

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White as a prophetess and more in strict adherence to things that she taught.

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So there is obviously, it's not an easy pigeonhole, not an easy group to pigeonhole.

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We do have a listener all the way in Kinross, Scotland, Murray, who says,

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It would be easy to dismiss cults generally as inward -looking, closed, and ultra -separatist, but what actually is the typical cult mindset toward evangelizing, and how evangelical are they?

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Over here in the UK, the Mormons have always been fairly active, but it would be easy to form the opinion of others that they only concentrate on fishing in the boat rather than fishing from the boat in terms of evangelizing.

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Does it vary from cult to cult? Well, I think certain degrees it does.

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Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are probably two of the more prolific groups that really try to reach out.

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They'll knock on doors and really get out there. Now, there are others that are not as in -your -face,

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I guess. So I think it would depend on the specific one. Now, one of the things that we talk about, just as a big picture so people kind of understand this, in this book here, one of the things we're trying to point out is that there's only two religions in the world.

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That's it, there's just two. Gods and not -gods. And so all other religions, one way or another, have utilized man's ideas to then be taken away from God and His Word.

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When it comes to cultic groups like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or what have you, usually it's a single leader or a group of leaders that then take you away from God and His Word.

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They want to add something else to Scripture or something like that. And so what happens is you have certain groups that then become either more pronounced or less pronounced depending on their leader and what they say and how far you should go.

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In fact, when you look at a religion like Islam, in many instances or many cases, could be seen as the world's largest cult of Christianity.

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In the Koran repeatedly it states that the Bible is true. Muhammad said that the Bible was true. In fact,

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I think he really thought that what he was dictating to be the Koran was Scripture that went right along with what the

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Bible was teaching. It wasn't until later on people started to realize how different they were. But what happened is you had a leader like a

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Muhammad figure here who then dictates the Koran. You've got the Hadith and so forth. It starts to take people away from God and His Word.

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And, of course, they're very prolific at trying to get people to accept Islam. Mormons, they go door to door quite often.

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Jehovah's Witnesses do that. But then you turn around and you see other groups like Baha 'i, which is essentially like a cult of Islam, which is thus a cult of Christianity.

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They're not as in -your -face. They're not as active in their promotion. You see groups like Deists, which are on the borderline of being cultic without a

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God, without a leader telling you what to believe, and yet they're not as active either.

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So you've got different groups. You've got some that are a little bit more and some that are a little bit less. But one of the things we do tend to see is a certain amount of control from a cult leader upon those who are within their group.

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And Murray follows up with a second question. When people manage to leave cults, they often, quite understandably, link up with individuals or groups who have themselves been in a cult, and in many cases are personally known to them.

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But many of these helpers aren't saved and can be as negative about evangelical

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Christianity generally as they are about the cult. Should we even acknowledge these helpers and seek to interact with them?

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Well, you know, I always want to encourage people to get involved and to help lead people to the gospel, the true gospel found in the pages of Scripture, help people understand that the

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Bible is the authority, not necessarily some of the people or the groups that people may latch on to.

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But see, here's what we find. A lot of times people who get sucked into a cult, they don't have that, I don't like to say it this way, but they don't have the discernment to know that the

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Bible is the absolute authority. They need to be taught those types of things, and sometimes it takes baby steps to do that.

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But when they leave a particular cult, sometimes they'll latch on to all sorts of stuff because they're being blown by every wind of doctrine, because they have not understood that the

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Bible is the absolute authority, and that's what we should be using to dictate theology, to dictate our understanding of who

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God is and who Christ is. So what we need to do is we really do need to get in there and help these guys out and help them understand, hey, the

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Bible is the absolute. You should be comparing yourself to Christ, not to some of these other people. Well, thank you,

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Murray in Kinross, Scotland. We have Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan.

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Is there an effective apologetic where witnessing to an unbeliever who claims that it's unrealistic for a

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Christian to call another religion a cult? Let me reread that because I'm not sure I'm understanding it.

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Is there an effective apologetic when witnessing to an unbeliever who claims that it's unrealistic for a

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Christian to call another religion a cult? I see, I guess what he is saying is basically that how dare we as Christians look at anyone else and be a judge over them or that kind of a thing, very much like liberals would often say.

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And it's interesting that everybody who says that as an accusation is judging themselves.

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They're making a judgment. Yeah. But if you could respond to Jeff's. Well, the

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Bible commands that we're supposed to make a righteous judgment. I know there are people who rip that passage out of context, judge not lest you be judged.

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You know, the context of that is actually being an improper judge. So you don't want to improperly judge.

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That's the same standard that should be judged to yourself. So, you know, we are to do a righteous judgment.

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And what happens is when a group, a cult of some sort, really is deviating from God and His Word, it's very public.

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Usually you know exactly what they're saying. You know, we can see what Charles Taze Russell wrote in his studies in the scripture.

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We can see what the Awake magazine, for example, says. And you can see that it deviates from God and His Word, which by definition is a cult.

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It has deviated. So you can compare those things. And I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that.

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And I don't think it's being judgmental. I think what it is is it's educational because it's helping teach people that, hey, that deviates from mainstream

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Christianity. It deviates from what God and His Word say. So what you really need to do is be careful of it.

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I hope people understand, too, when you're witnessing to somebody, we need to display that love for them. We're not out here just to demolish an argument or point out, hey, you're a cultist.

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We're not saying this, you know, to name call. We're saying that as an educational point because we love you guys.

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We want to see you guys repent from this and come back to God and His Word. So I think we need to make sure we're doing it with the right heart as well.

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And Jeff also has a follow -up question. And this is a very common question.

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Where Jeff is isolating it to one aspect, I most often hear this question in regard to the religion as a whole.

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Jeff's question is, what about Roman Catholicism practice of mariolatry?

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Isn't this cultic? And, of course, the very typical question I get is, do you believe

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Roman Catholicism is a cult? Oh, boy, I've heard that a number of times. And you know what?

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I mean, I totally understand where they're getting at with that, you know, when you're worshiping Mary, you know, as being perhaps your co -redemptress or something like that, you're placing your faith in Mary to be saved.

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That's a false savior. Mary can't save you. Jesus Christ is the only one that can save you. So, I mean, that really does hit those borderlines of being cultic in that.

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Now, here's the thing about Roman Catholicism that I think a lot of people don't quite understand. There are so many different variations of Roman Catholicism.

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It's shocking. You know, I've met some Roman Catholics. I knew a guy years ago.

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You know, in fact, I love the guy. He was brilliant. He would argue the Bible was the absolute truth and that you've got to believe in the

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Jesus Christ of Scripture right there. I mean, he would argue that to a hilt. And, you know, he'd argue for the triune

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God. And, you know, he would oppose, you know, the Maryism and that sort of thing. And I'm just sitting there going, you know what?

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I've not met Protestants that argue that good, you know? And he presented the Gospel beautifully. And so what we need to understand is, you know, there are divisions within Roman Catholicism.

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Now, even with, you know, the Mary being the co -redemptress or, you know, people are trying to worship

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Mary and that sort of thing, what you've got to understand is that's not necessarily the Roman Catholic position.

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A lot of Roman Catholics do hold to that, but they don't necessarily take those positions as the absolute.

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So we do need to be careful of that. Now, here's the thing. When it comes to Roman Catholicism, you know, there's a lot of good stuff in there.

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The problem is there's a lot of bad stuff sprinkled into it as well. And what we want to encourage anyone out there is, hey, it all needs to be compared to the 66 books of Scripture.

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God is that absolute authority. I cannot reiterate that enough. And you know what? That goes right back to the

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Reformation, you know, with Luther and Zwingli and Calvin and these guys saying, hey, the Bible is the absolute authority.

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All things need to be compared to that. That is that absolute standard. And you know what? We still echo that even today.

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Yeah, and the Reformers also had as their battle cry that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, by the

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Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone. And the Roman Catholic Church dogmatically, in the

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Council of Trent, condemned those battle cries in one way or another because of their belief that the works of men definitely merit salvation and grace, and even the works of the saints and Mary merit.

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So they merit the salvation of sinners and add to their own merit.

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So that's where it would get even more complicated. But I agree with you that there are many

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Catholics who either in ignorance of what their dogmatic statements teach or in rebellion to what their dogmatic statements teach are true believers and are born -again brethren.

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But I think that it really makes the issue a lot more complicated when they have dogma condemning those of us who are

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Protestants that still stands to this day. Well, here's one thing I want to encourage people to do.

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You know, when they're chatting with somebody who says, hey, I'm Catholic or I'm a Roman Catholic or whatever it might be, talk to them.

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Find out what they believe. Find out why they believe certain things. And you know what? Believe it or not, I think a lot of people are more than happy to chat with what they believe and why, and that will open up a much better discussion.

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And so keep that in mind. When you're not sure, you know, just because somebody says, hey, I'm a Roman Catholic or even if they say they're a

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Mormon or they're a Muslim, ask them exactly what they believe because, you know, believe it or not, not everybody out there holds to every single tenet of the generalized religion or cult or whatever it might be that's out there.

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So make sure you find out what they believe instead of just assuming what they believe and going from there. Would you say that the three things that are most important, or maybe you would even have more things, but the three things that you would look for when a religion is claiming to be

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Christian to be able to determine whether or not it is biblically sound and genuine in regards to its

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Christianity is to look at what they believe about the person and work of the

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Trinity or the persons and work of the Trinity, their view of the redemption that Christ provided on Calvary and their view of the scriptures, whether or not they are the sole, infallible, inerrant authority over the believer.

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Would you say those are the three areas that would be a litmus test over whether a professed

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Christianity is genuine? Well, I would suggest those are definitely among the top three.

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You know, there's always other litmus tests you can try to throw to it, but, you know, if you see red flags on any of those three,

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I mean, obviously, something's going on. You know, one of the things you typically see in a cult is a deviation of the nature of Christ, the triune

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God. And see, that's significant. You know, I've chatted with Muslims.

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I've chatted with Jehovah's Witnesses. I get the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on the door all the time. I rarely get Mormons. But, you know, for example, with Mormonism, they actually believe in a multitude of gods.

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They believe that, you know, God was a man who became a god, the universe is actually eternal, and, you know,

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Jesus was a man who became a god, and you can become a god as well. So they're actually polytheistic.

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They believe in a multitude of gods. Now you look at Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, they're completely different.

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They actually have one god, but what they have is they say that Jesus is not God. You know, they try to have

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Jesus as a created being, particularly Michael the archangel. Now I remember some

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Jehovah's Witnesses stopped by one time, and they're like, hey, Bodie, would you like to talk theology? And I'm like, sure I would.

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You know, come on, let's talk. And, you know, they came in, and we started chatting. And I said, well, let's talk about the nature of Christ.

29:59

And, of course, they agree that Christ is created. Where I disagree, Christ is the creator. And, you know,

30:05

I pointed out, I said, hey, is God, is Jehovah God, is he infinite? And they agreed, you know,

30:11

God is infinite. And I said, and, you know, when we sin against God, by extension, that means that we deserve an infinite punishment for that sin because the nature of God is infinite.

30:20

And they said, yes, absolutely. And I said, now, you guys would agree that Christ was the one who took the punishment on our behalf.

30:27

And they said, yes, absolutely. And I said, so how is it that a created being could take the infinite punishment from the infinite

30:34

Father? I was like, any created being would not be equal to God to be able to take that punishment to make salvation possible.

30:42

I said, the only way Jesus could take the infinite punishment from the infinite Father is if Jesus himself is also infinite.

30:48

So the infinite Son would have to take the infinite punishment from the infinite Father, and that would be enough to satisfy

30:54

God's wrath upon sin. I said, any created being, any created angel, is not equal to God to take that punishment.

31:00

And I remember the wheels started spinning, and they're like, you know what, they never thought about that. So, you know, what happens, they start to deviate on the nature of Christ.

31:08

What we need to do is we need to bring them back to that. That's one of the major ones. Redemption, their view of the Scriptures, is always a big one.

31:16

You know, a fact is, let me address that a little bit more about their view of Scripture. When it comes to the view of Scripture, typically what we see from a cult is they want to add something else to the

31:24

Bible. The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, magazines, or the Koran, or whatever it might be.

31:32

And what happens, and you know what, we see this blanket right across the board. They say, well, the new revelation, it's what you use to judge the old revelation.

31:41

In other words, the Book of Mormon is used to understand the Bible, or studies in the

31:46

Scripture by Charles Taze Russell is used to interpret the Bible. But they have it back to front. And this is a problem we typically see of just about every cult.

31:55

You use previous revelation to judge later revelation. We need to use the Bible to judge later revelation.

32:01

And they're doing it backwards. They're trying to say, well, now our new revelation is used to judge the Bible. No, they've got it backwards. See, when you go back to the

32:07

New Testament, you know what the New Testament authors did when they were proving Christ or arguing for new

32:13

Scripture or the apostolic writings and whatnot? They said, here, let me prove that Jesus is the Christ from the

32:18

Old Testament, not from what they're writing. They said, let's go back to the Old Testament and use it to prove the new. Same sort of thing with, hey, there's a new covenant in Jesus' blood.

32:27

Here, let's go back to the Old Testament. Here's where it says we're going to have a new covenant. What would happen was they're using the Old Testament to defend the new.

32:33

Now, we don't see that among the cults. They do it backwards. How convenient is that? But that's the key.

32:41

And one of the things we need to point out when we encounter somebody who tries to say there's this new revelation, you know, whether it's the

32:47

Book of Mormon or whatever it might be, you say, hold it. We need to judge it based on what the Bible says. They're going to want to turn that around.

32:54

But you say, no, no, no. You've got to use previous revelation to judge the latter. And if the latter revelation is in contradiction with the

33:00

Bible, then that latter revelation is not revelation. And so that's one of the keys, looking at the

33:06

Scripture. I think that's an excellent litmus test there. And we have to go to a break right now.

33:11

If you'd like to join us on the air with your own question for Bode Hodge regarding cults and world religions, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

33:20

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with Bode Hodge on cults and world religions.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Zarnes and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour today on Iron Sharpens Iron is

36:59

Bodie Hodge, speaker, writer, and researcher for Answers in Genesis. Today we are discussing for the first hour his three -volume book.

37:08

It's already available in two volumes and there's a third one on the way, World Religions and Cults.

37:14

And if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

37:20

We do have some listeners still waiting to have their questions asked and answered. But before I return to the interview,

37:25

I just have a quick announcement. I hope that as many of you as possible join me at the G3 Conference, January 19th through the 21st, 2017, in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

37:39

Protestant Reformation. This is going to be held in Atlanta, Georgia and speakers include such notables as Paul Washer, Stephen J.

37:48

Lawson, D .A. Carson, Bodie Baucom, James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, Tim Challies, Conrad Mbewe, who is one of the most powerful preachers

37:58

I've ever heard in my life from Zambia, Africa, Phil Johnson, who's the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry, grace to you, and Rosaria Butterfield, who we just had on yesterday, a former leftist lesbian who was saved by the blood of Christ and totally transformed and is now married to a pastor and a prolific writer and speaker, a real dear sister in Christ.

38:22

Todd Friel from Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, who I know is very familiar with my guest's father -in -law,

38:29

Ken Ham, and John Kratz and others, most of whom have been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron.

38:37

For more details, go to g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.

38:43

Hope to see you there. We have a listener in Lyndonhurst, Long Island, C .J.,

38:50

who asks Bodie Hodge, why is it that denominations that have become liberal are not classified typically by apologists as being cults?

39:02

Very often these liberal denominations deny such pillars of the truth as the deity of Christ, the

39:09

Trinity, the virgin birth, salvation by grace alone through faith alone, the exclusivity of Christ and his work, the inerrancy of the scripture, the bodily resurrection of Christ, and I could go on and on.

39:26

Why is it that these are not typically under the heading of cults, like the rest of the cults?

39:32

Very good question, I think. No, it's a great question. In fact, we were pondering that ourselves when we were doing the first volume.

39:39

When we did the overview, called Counterfeits of Christianity, a specific chapter in the first volume, one of the things we do is we point out that a lot of these guys have become so liberal that some of them have denied the very nature of Jesus Christ, which would make them cultic.

39:56

And you know what? We tend to see that. A lot of times we see it among specific denominations.

40:02

Sometimes it's among groups within a denomination, and then denominations disagree with each other.

40:07

Sometimes they split off. But you know what? They're moving in a cultic direction. That's exactly right.

40:13

And we don't shy away from pointing that out in that chapter. Of course, we were comparing and contrasting that with SDAs who are moving more in a biblical direction.

40:24

Now, you know what? That is the case. When it comes to some of these extremely liberal denominations,

40:29

I don't want to point names here, but I've been on two different sets of websites of very liberal churches where one of them actually said, you do not need to believe in Jesus to be saved.

40:42

Now, that right there automatically should throw up a big red flag, not only on Scripture and redemption and things like that, but boy,

40:51

I tell you what, just the very subject of biblical authority should have red flags all over it.

40:58

But when we start to see these types of things, what we need to do is we need to step back and go, hey, what direction are these guys heading?

41:04

And have they crossed that line yet? And I would suggest in some cases they have crossed that line, but you almost need to take that on a case -to -case basis.

41:12

What I've found is many pastors, many people within particular denominations, sometimes they don't know what the leadership is doing and the positions that some of these guys have taken, and yet they're still good and solid and standing on the authority of the

41:25

Bible. But I'll tell you what, I suggest as times are moving forward and as things become more liberal and people start getting rid of more

41:32

Scripture, they start throwing more Genesis out, or once you throw Genesis out, why not throw the Gospel of John out?

41:39

That's what we're starting to see. I think that problem's going to become a bigger issue, and I think Christians are going to have to address it in more detail here in the near future.

41:47

Yes, and obviously, even in the most liberal of the denominations, you still have some

41:54

Bible -believing Christians who are pastors and perhaps seminary professors and members who are holding firm to the truth.

42:04

I know United Methodist pastors that are truly born -again Bible -believing

42:10

Christians who are very uncomfortable with the direction their own denomination is taking, and they feel that it's their duty to remain there and be some kind of a light to bring the denomination back to the biblical faith of John Wesley and so on.

42:24

And then you have the same thing going on with the PCUSA, the most liberal of the

42:30

Presbyterian groups, and the Congregationalists and so on. It's very hard these days to find an evangelical amongst the

42:39

United Church of Christ folks, but they still are there, here and there. But very good question,

42:46

CJ. We have a first -time listener in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, Travis, who asks,

42:56

What is the distinction between a cult and a religion? You know, that is a great question.

43:03

In fact, I'm thrilled that he asked that question, because sometimes it's kind of nebulous. Now, one of the things that we tried to point out, we actually talk about this in the preface of the very first book, there's world religions, there's cults, and there's also philosophical systems.

43:17

Well, here's the thing. You know, a cult, a world religion, there's cults, and there's also philosophical systems. A cult is also religious.

43:23

It is a world religion when you actually kind of look at it. Now, a lot of times when you define a cult, a cult deviates from a world religion in that it mimics or it counters or it deviates from a major world religion, particularly in the first volume we're talking about Christianity, where people have deviated from that.

43:41

Now, there are also cults for other religions. There are cults of Hinduism. For example,

43:47

Hare Krishna is arguably the largest cult of Hinduism, just to kind of give you that idea.

43:53

Now, that doesn't mean Hare Krishna is totally distinct from Hinduism, and yet it's still religious.

44:01

Like I said, it's nebulous, and people have certain criteria sometimes to define one or the other, but keep in mind that all cults are world religions.

44:11

Not all world religions are cults, so cults are kind of like a group. Philosophical systems, they're all philosophical systems.

44:18

They're all religious, so keep those kind of things in mind when we're using some of that terminology. Yeah, another distinction would be made between Islam and the nation of Islam.

44:30

The nation of Islam commonly are referred to as black Muslims, but they are really absolutely as far away from genuine

44:42

Islam, for lack of a better term, than Christians are, because they believe

44:48

God was a man or is a man with a physical body, which is the worst sin within Islam, the sin of shirk, to believe that Allah has partners and things like that, and to believe that Allah has a body of flesh.

45:04

And the nation of Islam believes that and many other things that have nothing to do with Islam. That's right. We see a lot of groups, even within Islam.

45:12

One group that always fascinated me was the Alawites, and what's interesting about them is the nature of God to them is triune.

45:20

Really? I've never heard of that group. That was kind of a unique group that I did a little research on. How do you pronounce that and spell that?

45:28

Alawite is how I've always heard it pronounced. Now, I'm sure different cultures may pronounce it a little different, but just A -L -A -W -H -I -T -E, if I remember right.

45:39

You'll have to double -check me on the spelling. And that's a group that claims to be Islamic? Yeah, they're an

45:44

Islamic group, and follow the Qur 'an, but yet the nature of God is triune in their viewpoint.

45:51

Wow, I had never even heard of them. Well, it makes you wonder, were they influenced by Christianity? Remember, Christianity has been around long before the inception of Islam, so it wouldn't surprise me that maybe they started to syncretize or start to mix some of that at one stage or another.

46:08

We see the same sort of thing with some of the other religions that are floating around out there. One of them is

46:14

Sikhism. Sikhism is very much like an Eastern religion, and yet it has one god very similar to a

46:20

Muslim god, and yet they're right there in between where Muslims and Hindus essentially meet.

46:27

It's almost like a conglomeration of the two religions just kind of put together. And Travis has a follow -up question.

46:35

James White, who is the theologian I referred to earlier, who's going to be speaking at the

46:40

G3 Conference, he's been a friend of mine since 1995, a dear brother in Christ, a brilliant scholar and apologist.

46:48

He says, James White often says that a person in the Roman Catholic Church can be saved while still in the church in spite of the teachings of the church.

46:57

Can this same principle be applied to fringe Christian groups like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses?

47:04

Perhaps despite the teaching they receive, they still have a biblical understanding of essential doctrines.

47:11

Is this possible? If they do not know what the teachings of the church are, then

47:16

I would suggest it is possible. Let me give you a good example of that. I know of an apologist where some

47:22

Mormons came to their door, and they started talking, and this apologist pointed out, well,

47:28

Mormons, you guys believe in multiple gods, polytheism, and they're like, no we don't, we believe in one god, a triune god.

47:34

And he's like, no, actually you don't. So they said, well, let's go back. They went back and talked to their leadership, and they came back and they said, oh,

47:42

I guess we do believe in polytheism. But here's the thing. A lot of these guys, they've been so influenced by the church that when they got involved in Mormonism, they didn't know.

47:51

And see, like Mormonism, for example, they utilize a lot of similar terminology. Saved by faith through grace.

47:57

They have different meanings behind that terminology, but if somebody had been raised up in a Christian church or had some familiarity with the

48:04

Bible, they might use those terms as though they're coming from the Bible. And so I could see them thinking, oh, well, these

48:13

Mormons, they're not that different. I don't see any different teaching. What it is is they just haven't got to a level deep enough where they understand true

48:20

Mormon doctrine. So, I mean, those types of things can happen, although you've got to be very careful of that.

48:26

That's not a license to say, okay, well, we can go to a Mormon church or a Jehovah's Witness church or a

48:32

Kingdom Hall, I guess that is, or what have you, because what's going to happen is you're going to be influenced by that cult one way or another if you continue in there.

48:43

Well, thank you, Travis. It's always great to hear from our

48:50

Canadian listeners. I know that we have quite a number of them. And I always love to hear from folks from all over the world who listen to Iron, Sharp, and Zion.

48:59

And the audience is growing globally. We have Seth in Randleman, North Carolina, who asks, how are so many cults so effective at getting converts from Orthodox churches?

49:16

And what are their main tactics? Now, obviously, he's not speaking about Eastern or Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox.

49:22

He's talking about biblically sound churches. Well, I think there's an easy answer to that.

49:29

I suggest that a lot of people growing up in churches are not taught how to stand on the authority of the

49:35

Bible, how to defend their faith, to have that apologetics that's behind them. I mean, I look at my own life.

49:40

I grew up in church, and you know what? I heard hundreds of gospel sermons, but I was rarely taught anything about apologetics, how to defend my faith, or just a lot of the aspects of the

49:52

Bible. It's just never taught those things. I mean, by the time I was sent out and by the time I went off to college and I go out there and I'm going to defend for myself,

50:00

I mean, I knew very little. And so I think one of the biggest failures of the church, by and large, cross -country, maybe in many cases across the world, is that we're not training people within our churches to stand on the authority of the

50:12

Bible to know what the debates are, to know how to deal with it. And I think that's one of the things we really need to step up.

50:18

We need to show these guys, hey, when cultists come knocking on the door, here's going to be some of the debate points.

50:25

Here's how you show what's wrong with that. Make sure you're doing it with the heart for the gospel, by the way. Hey, when it comes to issues of the world,

50:32

I mean, we're in a culture today where the world influences people in the church more than the church does. A great example of that is the religion of secular humanism.

50:41

It's taught freely in schools. Most people don't realize that. You know, people thought, you know, there's this mentality that religion's been kicked out of the classroom.

50:49

No, it hasn't. Christianity's been kicked out. What they did is they replaced it with the godless religion of secular humanism with variant forms like agnosticism or atheism.

50:58

And what do we see in those religions? We see things like Big Bang, evolution, millions of years. Those are subsets to the religion of secular humanism.

51:06

And so what happens is a lot of Christians are influenced by the world. They start buying into things like Big Bang, millions of years, evolution.

51:13

And I don't say that lightly because some of those things influenced my own life many years ago. And I had to step back and say, well, what does

51:19

God have to say? But what we're seeing is we're seeing a lack of teaching, a lack of teaching the kids how to defend their faith.

51:26

And so what happens is they don't know how to defend it, and so they're easy prey to be blown by every wind of doctrine.

51:32

I used that terminology earlier. A lot of times people who get sucked into a cult is because they don't know how to defend themselves against such a thing.

51:42

Yeah, praise God. And I understand, sadly, I happen to be a Baptist, a Reformed Baptist, and I have heard that the

51:49

Baptists are one of the primary targets for cults where they are most successful, unfortunately. Yeah, Jehovah's Witnesses will do that.

51:56

I'm sorry? Jehovah's Witnesses are like that. They're trained to specifically go toward Baptists.

52:02

Hmm. Well, that is a tragedy. We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

52:09

Would moral relativism and liberal cultural anthropology be the roots of the religious pluralism that we see in our society?

52:19

I think they're related. I don't think it's necessarily the cause, but I think they're related. I think one of the things that we've started to see with religious pluralism, and there's a couple of factors here, but first off, we've seen a general trend in the

52:32

United States. Starting in the late 1700s, early 1800s, we started to see people deny

52:37

Genesis as literal history. We had people start to say, well, let's try to understand the past, so let's leave the

52:43

Bible out of it. So you leave things like a global flood out of it. So all of a sudden, things like millions of years start to take over.

52:49

By the 1870s, most of our Christian universities, even in places like England, Oxford, Harvard, Yale, places like this, had converted over to a secular worldview.

52:59

And so as soon as you deviate, you start to go in an entirely different direction. You start to give up things like Genesis.

53:06

People start to give up all sorts of stuff in the Bible, and they're more than willing to latch on to anything else. Now, coupled with that, you know, after the

53:13

World Wars, we started to see people come to the United States from all over the world bringing all sorts of religions with them.

53:20

Zoroastrianism comes in the United States. We start to see Islam in major influx.

53:25

We start to see a lot of Hinduism, Buddhism, and so forth. And so we start to see all this stuff just jumble right inside the

53:32

United States, and I think the church was not prepared to defend themselves against some of these religions.

53:37

They were no longer a good witnessing tool to these people who were coming here, and I think that opens the door to all sorts of religious pluralism.

53:47

So yes, I think there's a relationship to that, but I would suggest that there's some other factors that were in there that were more foundational that helped fuel that fire before that ever occurred.

54:00

Well, I want to make sure that before we run out of time that you leave our listeners with that which is most important to you at this time in regard to the subject that you most want etched on their hearts and minds before they leave the program today.

54:14

Well, I think the key is the authority of the Bible. You know, a lot of people look at answers in Genesis, they think creation, evolution.

54:21

No, we're all about the authority of the Bible in every area of your lives, including origins, including world religions.

54:27

And I want people to understand, hey, the Bible is the authority, the Bible is true, and that means that the message of the gospel founded in that same

54:34

Bible is also true. Let's not forget why we argue for the authority of the Bible. It's ultimately for the cause of the gospel.

54:41

And so that's the message that I want to get across, and I hope that, you know, that's what comes through on this program.

54:48

Well, praise God. We have room for one more question from Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania.

54:55

She asks, in this age of politically correct, in this age of political correctness, it is more and more frustrating to try to point out to others where you believe that their faith or theology is in serious error, because the immediate reaction is that you are filled with hate and are a bigot.

55:18

What is the best way to diffuse that type of atmosphere immediately so that the person can actually listen to what you're saying without the smokescreen of bigotry in front of them?

55:32

Well, you know, we are in a culture where people are going to call those kind of things out on us. But you know what? We need to do it with the right heart.

55:38

And sometimes we just need to tell them, hey, guys, I'm not being like this. I'm doing this because I care for you. I want you to understand the truth.

55:44

And, you know, one of the things you can always point out is, hey, we're not perfect either. Just because we're a Christian, just because we're out here doing these kind of things doesn't make us perfect.

55:52

We've fallen short as well. So I think one of the things we need to get across is the heart and the desire for the gospel.

55:59

You know, sometimes, though, there's a case where you just can't, you're not supposed to toss pearls before swine, you know.

56:05

In Titus 3, 9, and 10, it says, answer a divisive person once, answer them a second time. After that, have nothing more to do with them.

56:11

If they're not going to listen, move on to somebody who will listen. So, you know, the Bible kind of gives us some guidelines on that.

56:16

But you know what? Let's do it with the right heart. And sometimes just sitting there trying to diffuse that kind of hate really does help.

56:23

But remember why we do it. It's always for the gospel of Jesus Christ. And you know what? If you use the word of God, it never comes back void.

56:31

So don't be afraid to use it. Well, praise God. I have a surprise for everybody who sent in questions today.

56:37

You're all going to get a free copy of either Volume 1 or Volume 2 of World Religions and Cults by Bodie Hodge and Roger Patterson.

56:48

So if you haven't already given us your full mailing address, please email that to us so we can get that shipped out to you as soon as possible.

56:57

We normally do not give these books for free to our Canadian and overseas listeners simply because of the shipping costs of doing such a thing.

57:08

And all of our books are being shipped to you, as always, by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

57:18

Who ship those books nearly daily out to our listeners who submit questions at no expense to Iron Sharpens Iron.

57:29

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for doing that day after day at no cost to us.

57:36

But as I said, we normally don't ship out the books to those in Canada and overseas because of the costs, but we're making an exception today.

57:46

So everybody is getting a free copy of either Volume 1 or 2 of World Religions and Cults, Counterfeits of Christianity.

57:55

And if you want more information about this book, or should I say this three -volume set of books, go to nlpg .com.

58:06

That stands for New Leaf Publishing Group, nlpg .com. And you could also go to the website where our guest,

58:16

Bodhi Hodge, is one of the staff there, one of the team, answersingenesis .org.

58:23

Answersingenesis .org. Bodhi, do you have any other contact information or website that you'd care to share? You know what, that's the place to reach me, so go ahead and go there.

58:34

Answersingenesis .org. And as I said, please send my regards to Ken Ham and tell him that we would love to have him back on the program very soon.

58:41

We'll do it. God bless you, brother, and keep up the great work. Well, thank you, and thank you for being such a wonderful guest, and we look forward to having you back on the program as well.

58:51

And if you'd like to join us with a question for our guest, our second guest, who is going to be joining us at any moment,

58:59

God willing, our second guest today, which she is going to be speaking on an issue that I have a feeling is going to evoke some listeners who want to remain anonymous.

59:12

But the theme of her book and the title of her book is Unashamed, Healing Our Brokenness and Finding Freedom from Shame.

59:21

That is by Heather Davis Nelson, who is a writer, counselor, retreat speaker, pastor's wife, and author of the aforementioned book.

59:32

And if you'd like to join us, as I said, on the air with a question for Heather Davis Nelson, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

59:40

chrisarnson at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

59:48

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

59:54

And as I said, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. Don't go away. Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225

01:00:01

Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

01:00:08

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

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It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

01:00:21

We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together.

01:00:28

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:00:34

Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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01:02:13

Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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01:03:31

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our second guest today is

01:03:37

Heather Davis Nelson. She received her MA at Westminster Theological Seminary, and she is a writer, counselor, and speaker.

01:03:45

Heather writes regularly at heatherdavisnelson .com and has been a featured writer at the

01:03:51

Gospel Coalition, as well as a contributing author to the Journal of Biblical Counseling.

01:03:56

She and her husband are parents to twin daughters and live in southeastern Virginia. She is the author of Unashamed, Healing Our Brokenness and Finding Freedom from Shame, which is our topic for today.

01:04:10

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Heather Davis Nelson.

01:04:18

Thanks for having me, Chris. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Heather Davis Nelson, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

01:04:28

that's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

01:04:39

USA. And if you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, you may do so.

01:04:46

And let me just read a couple of the endorsements for this book we're going to be discussing.

01:04:52

Heather Davis Nelson has written a wonderful work on the topic of shame. She brilliantly weaves her own stories and those of others into the larger story of what

01:05:02

God does with our shame. She fearlessly brings the light of Jesus to shine in the dark recesses of our souls as she helps to free us from the pain of shame.

01:05:13

That was Paul E. Miller, executive director of See Jesus, an author of A Praying Life and a

01:05:20

Loving Life. And another commendation is, most of us can quickly point to a shame story from our past, that moment when we believed that we were shunnable, rejectable, and maybe even despicable.

01:05:33

We as heirs of God so often live with a low level of misery caused by shame, even though Jesus came to set us free.

01:05:41

In her insightful new book, Unashamed, Heather Davis Nelson explores the chains that bind us and then reminds us that we're not just ex -sinners, we are saints who have been made new.

01:05:54

Like a trusted friend who also happens to be a therapist, Heather walks you to a place of freedom so you can be all

01:06:03

Jesus intended you to be. That was Susie Larson, national speaker, radio host,

01:06:09

Live the Promise with Susie Larson, and author of Your Beautiful Purpose.

01:06:16

And that's some pretty powerful endorsements. Heather, if you could start the program with letting our listeners know what kind of a religious upbringing you had, if any, and how you came to faith in the true

01:06:30

Christ of Scripture. Absolutely. So I was privileged to grow up to parents who loved

01:06:37

Jesus and taught me Scripture and the Gospel that Jesus is the only way to be saved from our sins from a very early age.

01:06:45

I don't remember the moment when I prayed the sinner's prayer and asked Jesus to come into my life, although my mom tells me it was when

01:06:53

I was about five years old. And I will say that since that time there have been incremental periods in my life where my faith has become more real and more personal to me.

01:07:05

Probably one of the biggest ones would have been when I entered high school and was actually being made fun of for my

01:07:13

Christian faith. I was in a public school and it was pretty hard, you know, as a shy kid already to get made fun of for something that's core to my identity.

01:07:24

And a wise youth pastor had the, I think the wisdom to say,

01:07:30

Heather, you know what you're experiencing is persecution. And that blew my mind because I thought of persecution as what's happening a lot in the

01:07:40

Middle East right now with our brothers and sisters who are being, you know, literally physically attacked for their faith.

01:07:46

But it can also be being emotionally ostracized for your faith. And that was certainly what

01:07:52

I experienced. And that's when God's Word really began to leap off the page for me.

01:07:57

And I realized as I was reading 1 Peter about suffering for faith that, wow, this was something,

01:08:04

God's Word is something that spoke to me right in the middle of my suffering as a ninth grader, you know, a teenager.

01:08:11

So I would say ever since then, it's been just a continual, you know, just that, the up and downs that are the

01:08:18

Christian life, but knowing that Jesus' love is always bringing me back and that He's with me.

01:08:24

He's journeying with me. Well, what occurred in your life that drew you to a decision that you needed to write a book on shame?

01:08:34

I think it was my work as a counselor, as a biblical counselor, and sitting with story after story of men and women and couples and all ages of not only the shame that came from I've been abused as a child and I'm trying to be healed and therefore

01:08:54

I feel shame because this very ugly, dirty thing has happened to me, but also just the shame of so many of us that are walking around, even in the church, feeling like we have to be perfect and that we're the only ones who aren't perfect.

01:09:10

And so seeing day after day men and women sharing their stories with me and saying, and the worst part is no one struggles like this.

01:09:18

And I would just cringe on the inside because I'm like, I wish I could tell you that the person who's coming in right after you is going to say the exact same thing.

01:09:28

So I think seeing in church the need for us to begin to be honest about the things that we're silent about and to say, hey,

01:09:37

I struggled with that too, and here's how Jesus is rescuing me. So both what

01:09:43

I was hearing in my counseling practice and then also seeing that in my own life. As I was struggling, for me as a new mom, struggling with anger towards my kids and feeling so ashamed of that, that I must be the only one.

01:09:58

And yet as I shared it with Christian friends, they said, Heather, I've struggled there too, and I'm with you, and I'm praying for you.

01:10:06

And that really began to break, shames hold up my life. And so I wanted to offer this to other people.

01:10:13

Praise God. Well, I'm glad you did. There is a revulsion that many people have.

01:10:23

Very often they are not Bible -believing Christians, and they get furious when someone perhaps from behind the bars of a prison cell who has committed heinous crimes, perhaps multiple murders, rapes, child molestations, who knows what they may have done.

01:10:47

And when they have come to faith in Christ, perhaps through a fellow inmate or a chaplain, they proclaim that they are saved.

01:10:56

In fact, some have even, right from the death chamber, as they're getting their lethal injection, have said,

01:11:03

I know that I will be in glory with my Savior. And people get furious because they say, how dare that person come to peace with something that they should be eternally filled with shame over.

01:11:16

How do you respond to that kind of reaction? I mean, I think first I want to just offer the response of compassion.

01:11:23

Someone who's saying that about someone else probably has been grievously hurt in their lives.

01:11:29

There's probably some part of their story where they have been hurt by someone who unjustly took their dignity in some way.

01:11:38

So I would first say, I hear you. And there's part of me that agrees with you. How dare they? And yet I want to push into that and say, but isn't the hope of the human experience that there is always hope, that there's always another chance, and that is only possible because of Jesus.

01:11:57

And so when I am furious at someone else's redemption, because that's what it is, it really shows that I don't realize how deserving

01:12:07

I am myself. Even if I haven't done the red letter crimes, the death row crimes, before the sight of the

01:12:17

Holy God, even my gossip is worthy of death. And so it shows that I'm not taking my own evil within very seriously to say that someone else can't be redeemed.

01:12:29

And I do, I mean, I think of Jesus on the cross as he turns to the beast and says, today you'll be with me in paradise.

01:12:35

You know, and I think it's hard for us as people to understand that and to champion that, you know, because there's a sense that we want to see justice on earth, but justice is coming later.

01:12:51

Like, perfect justice was never promised here. It's something we all long for. And, yeah,

01:12:58

I mean, that's the beginning. I could keep going on and on, but, yeah, I mean, that's a big issue today.

01:13:04

Yeah, in fact, I know that, I don't know, you may be too young to remember who David Berkowitz is, but he was the son of Sam Killer, the .44

01:13:14

caliber killer in the 1970s who was killing people with a .44

01:13:20

Magnum in lover's lanes and things like that, people, couples parked in streets, deserted streets and so on.

01:13:30

And he came to Christ in prison, and I can still remember people, even pastors saying to me,

01:13:38

I don't believe that he's saved. That's just baloney. But I know people, I know Christians who spent time in prison for crimes that got to know

01:13:48

David Berkowitz, and they believe wholeheartedly that he's a brother in Christ. And, you know, you hear the same thing,

01:13:56

I've heard the same thing about Jeffrey Dahmer before he was murdered in prison. I don't believe that he's really redeemed.

01:14:03

It's amazing how we who claim to love Christ, who claim that we owe all of our salvation to his grace, who admit that we are deserving of hell for our own sins, and yet somehow we're doubting that these people could be saved and transformed by that same

01:14:23

God, by that same Jesus. And we even have the example of the Apostle Paul in the

01:14:28

Scripture who rounded up men and women to be executed for their Christian faith before he became a believer.

01:14:35

Yeah. We have a lot of self -righteousness. I mean, that's the thing. We all really think

01:14:42

I'm better than the next person. We don't fully trust that faith and salvation is entirely dependent on God's power.

01:14:50

You know, we bring nothing to the table, right? And that's the beauty of grace.

01:14:56

But, man, so many times we're like the older brother in the prodigal son story, and the younger brother finally comes home after he's lavishly partied it up and been far from the

01:15:11

Father, and we sit back in judgment and say, I'm not coming into that party. He hasn't truly repented.

01:15:18

And yet God the Father has compassion on us too, as the older brother, and comes out to us and says,

01:15:25

Hey, all I have is yours. Come in. Join the party. There is no less grace for you simply because I am lavishing grace on this other undeserving sinner.

01:15:36

Remember, you're undeserving too. Amen. We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who writes in and asks,

01:15:44

When it comes to our brokenness, do we as Christians forget that God in the person of Jesus Christ came to set the captives free in Luke 4, 18 -19?

01:16:00

Yes. I mean, we do. I mean, yeah, we do. Yeah, we forget that.

01:16:05

We forget that God came to set the captives free, and we forget that we are those same captives.

01:16:11

I mean, I think someone with a background like me, all the listeners out there who would say,

01:16:17

Hey, I was raised with faith. I was raised in preserving, in a good

01:16:23

Christian home, not a perfect one, but I was raised as a Christian, walked with Jesus through most of my life, didn't have an overtly rebellious period of my life.

01:16:35

We still forget that we're still captives to sin. But for grace, there's all of us.

01:16:43

Thanks, Tyler. Amen. Amen. We have an anonymous listener in New York who writes,

01:16:50

I have been saved by the blood of my Messiah, and my past is filled with horrific deeds.

01:16:59

I was responsible for someone's death, and I have committed adultery many times.

01:17:06

I live with this guilt, even though I know I've been set free from the power and penalty.

01:17:13

But I often feel guilt whenever I feel set free, if that makes any sense.

01:17:21

I feel guilty over the joy and peace that I receive from knowing that I am saved, but then the guilt floods back in when

01:17:31

I ever come to really appreciate and celebrate the joy.

01:17:37

It seems like a never -ending cycle. Do you have any advice? Yeah, I mean,

01:17:43

I think what this anonymous writer is calling guilt, I would call shame.

01:17:50

He or she has been set free from the things of which they are so ashamed, the things in their past.

01:17:59

And so I think any time those lies, and that's what they are, those lies that are coming back, saying you don't deserve to feel the joy and peace of salvation, that is no less dark than Satan himself.

01:18:10

He is the great accuser of the brethren and the sisters, and his is the voice of condemnation.

01:18:17

So I would say you need to preach the truth to yourself in those moments and say there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

01:18:25

And that's what's true, is that you do not have to live in chain to the guilt of your past.

01:18:32

Sure, there are consequences, but when you experience joy and peace, realize that's a gift of God's grace.

01:18:39

You are his beloved. Well, thank you very much, anonymous listener.

01:18:45

And you gave a label, a way to define what shame is.

01:18:53

If you could give us a more detailed definition of shame as opposed to other emotions that may get blurred together with the word shame.

01:19:05

What specifically do you mean by that? So what I mean by shame is anything that tells you...

01:19:13

Okay, let me talk about... I'm talking to Christians right now. So I would say shame for the

01:19:19

Christian is anything that would tell you you are not fully loved by the

01:19:24

Father, by God our Father. So any feeling of I deserve to be rejected,

01:19:31

I deserve to be punished, I deserve... all of those things. It's kind of...

01:19:36

it's this identity. Like guilt is more... you can point to... Okay, I feel guilty when

01:19:41

I've sinned against my children, when I've sinned against my husband, when I've sinned against a friend. I repent of that action.

01:19:48

I repent before them and before God. I ask for forgiveness. It's wiped away. Anything that lingers, any guilt that would linger,

01:19:56

I would say at that point, is turning into shame. So shame is an identity problem.

01:20:03

It is, yeah, this sense that I am bad, I have done bad things, bad things have been done for me, and these are unforgivable.

01:20:15

And Jesus has a lot to say about that all throughout Scripture. God has a lot to say about that throughout the pages of Scripture.

01:20:23

And shame gets in the way of relationships. I mean, that's another... There's so many different ways we can look at it. Shame can be fueled by fear.

01:20:30

A lot of times, like fear of getting close to someone because I'm going to be rejected by them. Like if they really knew all the things

01:20:38

I've done, they wouldn't be my friend. You know, this guy wouldn't want to marry me. This woman wouldn't keep dating me.

01:20:45

It's what causes us to hide and to feel disconnected from God and from other people.

01:20:52

Do you feel, do you think that the feeling of shame, in spite of everything that you said today, that the feeling of shame, at least temporary feeling of shame, is very right and good and appropriate and perhaps even necessary when it comes to even a

01:21:15

Christian who begins to delve into sins once repented of?

01:21:21

When they begin to return to wickedness, when they feel themselves slipping back in that direction, shouldn't a heavy deuce of shame jolt them back in the right direction towards Christ?

01:21:35

Yeah, I think as long as it is jolting them back in the right direction towards Christ, I think shame is so tricky because too often shame on its own just actually sends you further down that path of darkness and hiding.

01:21:51

You know, so if you feel, I think I would call it conviction instead of shame, what you're talking about, Chris, is like that initial, like, okay,

01:21:59

I've repented of this sin. I feel myself slipping. The Holy Spirit is telling me, wake up, don't do this.

01:22:05

You're feeling, you're starting to feel really bad. Your conscience is pricked. I would call that conviction and say, yeah, that's conviction, that's guilt, and run back to Jesus as fast as you can.

01:22:17

I think as it turns darker, it becomes shame, which actually keeps you from turning from Jesus the way that I've defined it.

01:22:25

Shame keeps you in isolation, keeps you running away until you begin to say, oh my goodness, this is not who

01:22:31

I am. You know, shame wants to say, this is who you are. This is who you always will be, as I've defined it.

01:22:39

Yeah, just like our first parents in the Garden of Eden when they ran and hid.

01:22:45

Yeah, I was going to point to that, yeah. I think that's a great picture of shame right there, the hiding.

01:22:54

Yeah, the shame, I'm assuming, can have what you've already been touching on, a crippling effect that can immobilize people and keep them in a fetal position, locked in a dark room where they are neither fleeing to Christ, they're not seeking the counsel of any

01:23:16

Christian pastor or brother or sister in Christ. They're just staying a prisoner to their own misery and guilt and self -pity,

01:23:30

I'm assuming. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's all of that. Like, shame also always wants to, you know, you look at the garden and the entrance of, like, sin comes into the picture and there's guilt and there's shame and there's the hiding and there's the covering.

01:23:47

They first want to hide from one another. You know, Adam and Eve want to hide from one another. Then God comes walking.

01:23:53

They try to hide from Him, which is futile. He calls them out, and then they start blame -shifting.

01:24:00

You know, so it's like all these layers of hiding that shame introduces.

01:24:06

When the remedy to shame, what I'm saying, what I believe the Bible teaches is that the way to get rid of shame is to say, yeah, this is what

01:24:16

I did, this is who I am, but no longer because of Jesus. He has given me

01:24:21

His righteousness in exchange for my dirty, filthy record of sin, which includes the sin of trying to be good enough without God.

01:24:31

And it's in really thinking into that truth and that hope that allows us to walk free of shame in relationship with God and in relationship with others.

01:24:43

We have CJ from Lyndonhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks, what advice do you have for me as I plead with a lost family member to begin to visit worship services with me?

01:25:02

This family member is plagued with the feeling of inadequacies as if they need to be cleaned up and sinless before they even come to church.

01:25:16

And no matter how many times I tell them that Christ came sinners to save and that He has not come for the healthy, but for the sick, it seems to fall on deaf ears.

01:25:30

And the constant excuse I hear repeatedly is, I'm not ready yet,

01:25:36

I'm not ready yet. How do I reverse that trend of thought in this loved one's mind?

01:25:43

And obviously, you can't reverse anybody's thoughts, but you could still give the person that advice.

01:25:51

Yeah, CJ, I would say, I love your love and your care for this family member, and it sounds like you're saying all of the great, right, true things that, yeah,

01:26:05

Jesus came to heal. He came for the healthy, or He came for the sick, not the healthy.

01:26:11

And maybe I would add, CJ, you've probably done this, but tell your story. Tell your story of your struggles, and not only in the past, like what

01:26:20

Jesus has rescued you from five, ten years ago, but like what you're struggling with right now.

01:26:26

And you probably have already done this, but if not, you know, I mean, I think that becomes one of the best witnesses to the power, to what church is, that church is not for the cleaned up and the perfect, but it's for all of us who are sitting here struggling with anger and with gossip and with, you know, feeling haunted by our past, and Jesus still says come.

01:26:51

So, you know, I think as we're able to share that with our unbelieving friends and family members, and to just give them that welcome, like you're bringing church to this family member every time you tell your story of grace in the gospel.

01:27:05

And as you continue to pray for their heart, you know, and pray that they would meet other Christians who maybe even struggle in the exact same way as this family member has, and who know

01:27:15

Jesus. I mean, that's our hope, you know, for salvation. But you can't force, you know, like you can't force them to come to church.

01:27:22

I think you can just keep telling your story and bring church to them. Thank you very much,

01:27:27

CJ. And by the way, I have a surprise for everybody who wrote in. You are getting a free copy of the book that we are discussing today.

01:27:36

Yay! Hooray, that's awesome. That's compliments of Crossway.

01:27:42

They were kind enough to send us free copies of Unashamed, Healing Our Brokenness and Finding Freedom from Shame by our guest

01:27:49

Heather Davis -Nelson. And the anonymous listener who had a question earlier, if you give us your full address,

01:27:57

I promise I'm not going to identify you on the air, but if you give us your full address, we will have that shipped out to you.

01:28:05

Compliments of not only the publishers, Crossway, but Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

01:28:12

who ships out all of our books that we award to winners in our audience who submit questions.

01:28:21

So we want to thank Todd and Patty Jennings at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for doing that faithfully at no expense to Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:28:29

That's CVBBS .com, CVBBS .com. We're going to go to a break right now.

01:28:35

If you'd like to join those listeners that already asked questions, if you'd like to join them with questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:28:45

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Heather Davis -Nelson right after these messages from our spot.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

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01:32:01

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01:33:05

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01:33:11

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01:33:18

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01:33:26

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01:33:33

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01:34:12

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01:34:18

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our second guest today is Heather Davis Nelson, a writer, counselor, retreat speaker, a pastor's wife, and author of Unashamed, Healing Our Brokenness and Finding Freedom from Shame.

01:34:34

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:34:43

We have a listener in Perry County, Pennsylvania, Arnie, who says,

01:34:49

I agree with every word that your guest is saying, but do you think that we have to use great caution to not overly cover the sins of those who may not be repentant and thus give them more boldness to continue in their sin without the shame and guilt that they really rightly should have?

01:35:13

Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a great concern.

01:35:19

You know, we can't... I mean, I think that's where we have to... you have to link the question of, or the desire and hope for being...

01:35:28

the hope for being unashamed with the fact that it only happens through Jesus, that it only is as we cast our sins upon him in repentance that we are given his righteousness, that we can't...

01:35:45

you can't get rid of shame any other way. And so, you know, I think as we remember that, that, like, the shame...

01:35:52

Like, without Jesus, there is no remedy for shame.

01:35:57

You know, there's no permanent remedy. You might feel a little better about yourself if you talk about the things that you feel ashamed of with someone who's safe and trusted, but there's no permanent remedy apart from Jesus Christ.

01:36:11

So, yeah, so let's, you know, certainly be very clear about that, that I'm not referring to being bold in sin with being unashamed.

01:36:20

So, yeah, good concern, good question. Yes, thank you very much,

01:36:25

Arnie. And you're also getting a free copy of the book Compliments of the Publishers Crossway, so we need your full mailing address for that.

01:36:35

We have an anonymous listener who says that,

01:36:41

I am engaged to a woman who is a Christian, but before her conversion had committed many sinful sexual acts that I know

01:36:55

I am supposed to completely overlook since she is a new creature in Christ, and she is also having a trouble time overcoming the shame that she feels for those acts, but how do

01:37:12

I remove those things from my mind? Because they do bother me.

01:37:18

I know that some of this comes from self -righteousness in me. I do want to overcome these feelings and be more humble and more forgiving toward her in regard to these things, but I have to admit they do linger in my mind and make me wonder if she will return to unfaithfulness when we are married.

01:37:43

That's something I've definitely addressed several times in counseling situations where you have a couple where one of them has a sexual past that they've repented of and have turned from, and the other partner, as part of being called to marriage with this person, is called to forgive, and I would say that forgiving is different than overlooking.

01:38:11

And I think it's normal to say... I think the important thing is to be able to talk with each other about this, for him to be able to say honestly to her, like,

01:38:22

I am struggling. Like, I'm struggling with your past. I know that I shouldn't.

01:38:28

I know that God has forgiven you, and I want to join with you in being part of redemption, but there's a cost here for me, too.

01:38:37

And realizing that it sounds like she acknowledges that, too, of like, gosh,

01:38:43

I wish this hadn't happened. I want to walk free of this. I want to be... I wish

01:38:49

I had a different past, and I think that's where you both get to come to Jesus together and say we want to walk out of forgiveness here, being forgiven and offering that forgiveness, and the only way we can do that is through Jesus, and so really praying together that, you know, for this fiancé.

01:39:12

I think they said they're engaged, right? I don't want to... Yes. Okay. So that the fiancé would be able to say, hey,

01:39:20

I'm going to view... I want to view, you know, my future wife as Christ views her, which is in righteousness and in purity, and I want to help to become part of her unashamed story, you know?

01:39:35

And I think that as they, you know, walk forward, I mean, yeah, like, the truth is that none of us can trust the other.

01:39:43

You know, in any marriage, as you go into it, all of us will be tempted towards unfaithfulness regardless of your past, and so that's why we have to fall hard on Jesus.

01:39:54

And I would give the caution, too, like, if they feel like they can't trust each other, like, you do need to be able to feel like you trust one another before you walk into marriage.

01:40:05

And I think it's, I would say, just reading through the lines, it sounds like they do. They just want to, it's just scary, and it's hard, and it's a big thing to overcome, and, like, that's really normal.

01:40:14

You know, that's really normal, but it's not without hope. Amen. And as 1

01:40:21

Peter 4, 8 reminds us, above all, keep fervent in your love for one another because love covers a multitude of sins.

01:40:29

Yeah, and I would prefer that, since they'll be getting a copy of Unashamed, read the shame -free marriage chapter because he actually has this awesome opportunity to be a really tangible picture of Christ's redemption of her, you know, of his fiancée as they walk into marriage together to really help eradicate the shame in her life that she feels over her past.

01:40:52

Great. And I talk a little bit about that. Terrific. Well, yes, you are getting a free copy, anonymous listener, and we promise we're not going to reveal your identity, but we obviously need your name and address to ship the book out to you.

01:41:06

So if you want to just e -mail it to me, obviously I'm not going to announce who you are over the airwaves.

01:41:12

So if you send that to us, we'll have a free copy of Heather's book shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:41:21

Thanks to our friends at Crossway for supplying the books. You know, that is one thing that I'm certain that you face as a counselor when you're having couples who are in all kinds of problems and they're in conflict and arguments and so on, is that we forget what

01:41:50

Christ forgave us for. We forget that we were wicked individuals who were redeemed by the blood of Christ, and we sometimes, especially if we've been a

01:42:03

Christian for a long period of time, it's been so long since we may have been involved in overtly evil activity that we forget that the things that we're doing every day are wicked in the sight of God, as the late

01:42:18

Jerry Bridges wrote a book called Respectable Sin. I was just thinking of the same book as you were talking.

01:42:26

Yes. And so if you could just comment on that situation where we are always forgetting, or not always, but very often forgetting, that we were sinners redeemed by a gracious God ourselves, and we have to be willing to look at that other significant person in our life with the same kind of patience and charity and love and grace that we ourselves expect.

01:42:55

I think that's a great prayer that God loves to answer, but watch out.

01:43:01

It's one of those dangerous prayers if you start praying, God, remind me of my sinfulness, remind me of my redemption, of what you've forgiven me for, so that I can love others.

01:43:13

Thinking about Jesus' words in the Gospels, he who is forgiven much loves much.

01:43:20

So I think if I'm having a problem with loving someone or overlooking their struggles, it's a great reminder to me, a good call to go back to Jesus and say,

01:43:33

God, remind me of how much you've forgiven me for. Although, yeah, he has ways of doing that that could be very sobering.

01:43:44

But yeah, I think that's a prayer he loves to answer for his people, of like, hey, let me remind you all that I've redeemed you from.

01:43:52

And I think that helps us to love one another, for sure. Amen. We have another anonymous listener in New Jersey who wants to know, although we are to be loving and forgiving and compassionate, do you not believe that there are certain sins that our children may be committing that would necessitate that we remove them from the home, even if it means for the protection and safety of our other children?

01:44:26

Well, yeah, I mean, that sounds like a really tricky situation. I'm assuming that the children who are committing these acts, and I'm going to assume it's abuse of some sort, are older.

01:44:37

Or, you know, I'm thinking 12, 13, 14, 15. And if an older child is endangering your younger children, yeah,

01:44:46

I mean, that's part of the consequence, is that you've got to do what you need to do as a parent to protect your younger children from further abuse.

01:44:55

But you can do it in a way that's loving and that's kind and that's firm, you know, where you're saying what you're doing is not okay, it can't continue unless your behavior stops or, you know, because what you've done is so incredibly dangerous.

01:45:15

We have to remove you from the home, but we are not removing you from our love. We're not removing you from relationship with us.

01:45:22

We'll come visit you, you know, wherever you are. We will maintain connection with you. We love you. And because we love you, you can't continue in this.

01:45:31

So, yeah, I think it's all about the way you do it. You know, you can either be further, you know, it sounds like there isn't shame, probably, for what's happening with this older child.

01:45:42

And, you know, you can do it in a way that just, and no guilt either. It doesn't sound like there's any guilt.

01:45:48

So guilt is a very good thing for children to feel and experience and develop. But we don't want to shame them into thinking there's no way they can ever get past whatever it is they're struggling with.

01:46:02

Now, we live in a day and age of rampant easy -believism and cheap grace where church discipline has largely disappeared from most churches even calling themselves evangelical.

01:46:17

Having said that, do you encounter many people who are in church situations, congregations, where they really heap on the shame to individuals even when they've repented and come to Christ and they can't seem to escape this shame because their own church fellow members and leaders are continually heaping the shame on them?

01:46:43

I will say this. I hear stories about a few churches like that, but I will say that I feel incredibly blessed to not be a part of a church that's like that.

01:46:55

But I think more often than not, it happens through other members rather than leaders.

01:47:01

It certainly can. I mean, I've definitely, I've heard the stories of, you know, someone who's, you know, got divorced before they were a

01:47:08

Christian, became a Christian, and now can never be in leadership, you know, at a church because they were divorced in pre -Jesus days.

01:47:16

And I'm like, ah, that's an example of, I think, a church adding shame to where it shouldn't be, you know, it shouldn't be there.

01:47:25

But I think it's the way a community embraces ex -sinners, which is all of us, you know, like as, hey, you're a fellow sinner who's redeemed by grace or hopefully will be redeemed by grace in the future, you know, if it's someone who's not a believer yet.

01:47:43

So I think it can have a lot more to do with the congregation of the church than the leadership, but the leadership can certainly set the tone by talking openly about weaknesses and struggles and failures and, you know, saying, hey, this is a place for the broken.

01:48:03

You know, this is a place for those of us who know Jesus is our only hope. Amen. And do you have some practical advice for our listeners in regard to prayer and devotional life and other things that would aid in someone being lifted out of the deep shame that Christ, for things that Christ has indeed already redeemed them from and forgiven them for?

01:48:33

Mm -hmm. I think a great exercise would be reading through Ephesians and Colossians and write down everything that the

01:48:46

Bible says is true about you because you're in Christ. You know, there's beautiful identity statements of being rescued from darkness into light, of being redeemed, of being made a child of God.

01:48:57

So I think that's a really practical place to start is Ephesians and Colossians. And, you know,

01:49:03

I think praying, you know, pray Psalm 139 if you're struggling. We didn't even really talk about this, but struggling with, you know, feeling ashamed of your body or feeling ashamed about who you are.

01:49:15

Like, remember, you were fearfully and wonderfully made and your days were written before you were born.

01:49:20

Like, God knows your story. So praying that you would believe that. Pray Psalm 51. Confess your sins and confess the guilt and realize the guilt is forgiven and covered because of Christ.

01:49:33

And then the last thing I would say is probably one of the hardest things, which is do this with someone else. You know,

01:49:39

I think the reality of walking free of shame requires relationship with God, first of all, and then with another person who can look at us and say,

01:49:51

I still love you even with all of these other things, you know, even though you are a sinner because I am too.

01:49:59

And I struggle to know and believe who I am in Christ and to live accordingly.

01:50:06

And that's what really begins to dispel the darkness of shame. Amen. You said something earlier about those who are ashamed of their appearance for some reason.

01:50:21

I don't want to be flippant and uncaring about those folks because,

01:50:28

I mean, you have all levels of reasons why that type of shame exists.

01:50:33

You may have somebody who has been horribly disfigured in an accident or something. But isn't very often that kind of shame, especially when somebody is enslaved to it, can it be that it really is because, and please forgive me,

01:50:49

I don't mean to be insensitive here, but could it be because these people are really being overly absorbed with themselves?

01:50:58

It's because they're constantly thinking about themselves. They think that they deserve to be better looking or what have you.

01:51:07

Yeah, I mean, I think, I'll talk about it in my own life and just say, as a woman, like, there is such pressure on us to kind of present this to be perfect, and to have the perfect body and the perfectly dressed, you know, presented to the world, and I find that when

01:51:25

I'm really focused on, oh, I wish I could lose a few more pounds, or I wish I didn't, like, it is an overfocus on me instead of a focus on God.

01:51:37

But I would also add to that, you know, I just want to soften that with a little bit of the reality that we also live in a broken world where I am thankful that I don't have any,

01:51:49

I don't have the tapes running through my head that some of my clients have had, like, who end up in eating disorders.

01:51:55

It's more than just a self -obsession. It comes into that. That's definitely part of it, but it's been usually some sort of great, you know, some sort of sin against them.

01:52:06

Parents who said awful things, you know, that just stick in a kid's mind, you know, and especially girls, you know, so I think we just can't, we have to realize that,

01:52:18

I think especially when it comes to, like, an eating disorder kind of obsession with appearance, that that's usually rooted.

01:52:24

There's certainly an element of pride that's there somewhere, but at some point it's probably been even overshadowed and fed by someone sinning against them pretty grievously, either through physical sexual abuse or through words, communicating to them that they weren't good enough and that they needed to be better looking in order to be loved and accepted.

01:52:48

And what is the root behind most people that you counsel to their shame?

01:52:59

When you speak to people and you're counseling them and people who are even responding to your book, perhaps, and writing to you, what is the main thing that seems to be causing this shame?

01:53:16

It's isolation. It's not, it's isolation.

01:53:22

Voluntary or they've been shunned by other people? Both. You know, it's usually a combination of both and,

01:53:29

I mean, I do think that's the common thing. And it could be isolation, I'm not only picturing, you know, the person who stays in their house like a recluse all day long.

01:53:39

In fact, it's usually not that. It's someone who's maybe really involved in their church and their community, but they don't feel like anyone really knows them.

01:53:47

And so there's this pervasive isolation that, it kind of, it feeds the shame and shame feeds the isolation.

01:53:55

So I think that's the root of it, that isolation and the disconnection. We were made for community.

01:54:02

You know, it was not, it's not good for a man to be alone. And so God created woman and community and relationship.

01:54:08

And yeah, so that's what I would say. Like that's the message of my book as well. Come before God and believe that you're righteous because of Christ.

01:54:18

And then therefore go and welcome other people with that same, that same security and that same love and be welcomed by others.

01:54:29

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says how do we delicately approach the subject with a loved one who we believe has an eating disorder, although we're not a hundred percent certain about it.

01:54:44

And we do not want to unnecessarily insult the person, but we can't help but think because of a change in body structure and weight, something is going on.

01:54:57

I think that you just, you come to that person and you say the family member and say,

01:55:03

I think what, you know, BB, what you've just said just now, you know, just saying, hey, I don't want to offend you, but I am concerned for you because I love you.

01:55:12

And it seems like you've lost a lot of weight recently. And I, I'm just concerned that there could be something else going on.

01:55:19

Like, have you, have you talked to someone else about it? Have you seen a doctor lately? Like I'm not an expert, but I am concerned for you.

01:55:28

And just saying it like that. Yeah. And of course it's, it's a lot easier. I'm assuming, especially when you're speaking to a woman about talking about her loss of weight, because the reverse, the reverse could end your life very quickly.

01:55:46

I'm like, if it's been a lot of weight, I would probably approach it differently.

01:55:54

And, and I would just pray a whole lot before I'd say anything, honestly, and maybe pray that like it would naturally come up somehow.

01:56:03

Cause that's usually not welcomed and you could, you could add more shame to it. Yeah. Well, I want to make sure that you leave our listeners with what you most want etched on their hearts and minds regarding this subject before we run out of time today.

01:56:17

So I'll give you the floor for about three minutes here. Sure. Okay. Thanks, Chris.

01:56:24

I think, I think my biggest message is you're not alone. You're not alone in your shame.

01:56:30

You're not alone in the sin that you're struggling with past or present. You feel like you are, but that's, that's the lie that's going to keep you from getting the healing you need and the forgiveness that's waiting for you.

01:56:43

Jesus says, come and I will give you rest and lay down your burdens. Take my yoke upon you.

01:56:50

It's easy. It's gentle. There is no proving that you have to do.

01:56:56

There is no, all that's needed is that you come to him and you say,

01:57:01

I need you. And this burden is too heavy for me to carry. And then maybe the most courageous thing to do is to then pray about, okay, what's next?

01:57:12

Like, what, what do I need? God, what, who can I talk to? You know, you're not alone.

01:57:19

So you come to God and then you begin to speak up to someone else. Hopefully a safe and trusted person in your church, maybe your pastor, maybe a

01:57:26

Christian counselor, a family member and say, there's, you know,

01:57:32

I'm really struggling with feeling like I'm carrying this weight of shame from something done to me or from something

01:57:40

I did. And I want, I would love for you to help me out by just listening to my story and offering me grace and compassion in it and reminding me of who

01:57:51

I am because of Jesus. So I think that's what I wanted to leave your listeners with our listeners with today and just say, thank you for tuning in.

01:57:59

I'd love for you to read my book. You know, please interact with me. I have, you know, via my blog, heatherdavisnelson .com

01:58:06

or follow up with Chris. And thank you again, Chris, for having me on your show.

01:58:12

Well, I thank you for being on the show. And just to repeat some of that contact information for our listeners.

01:58:20

If you would like to get in touch with our guest, Heather Davis Nelson, go to heatherdavisnelson .com,

01:58:28

heatherdavisnelson .com. We also want to thank our friends at Crossway for providing all the free books that we give away and their website is crossway .org,

01:58:39

crossway .org. And we don't want to forget Cumberland Valley Bible book service who ships out those free books, cvbbs .com,

01:58:49

cvbbs .com. We urge you to go to their online catalog because not only will you find

01:58:56

Heather's book, but you'll find a host of others theologically sound and trustworthy books there.

01:59:03

Cvbbs .com are one of those sources where you don't have to be concerned or worried that you're going to be getting something that is aberrant or not trustworthy.

01:59:13

And I thank Todd and Patty Jennings for providing such a great resource. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in.

01:59:21

I want to remind you about the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, that I will be attending from the 19th through the 21st with a whole host of speakers, including

01:59:32

Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, DA Carson, Votie Baucom, James White, and on and on Rosaria Butterfield.

01:59:40

And the website is g3conference .com, g the number three conference .com.

01:59:46

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.