Remembering RC, Then, Refuting More Textual Traditionalism

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:37

Greetings and welcome to the dividing line here at the beginning of the program today. We're going to do in light of really the celebration of R .C.

00:46

Sproul's life is to replay for you a Interview that I to be honest with you had forgotten until someone just this morning asked the question they asked

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Hey was R .C. Sproul ever on your program? And I I was like, I don't think so and then they popped up the URL like oh, yeah, that's right.

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Not too long after We had done a cruise together in in Hawaii in 2007 for Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church In 2008

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Ligonier had a conference out at Scottsdale Bible Church and Sort of to help promote that and as a result of our having spent some time together on that cruise

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Dr. Sproul was on the program for about half an hour and so It is interesting what we started off talking about because it's very relevant today it remains relevant today and Definitely tells you exactly where dr.

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Sproul stands on one of the controversies of today Will you you will hear him discussing the will of man?

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And clearly he was a compatibilist unlike some today But we went on from there to various sundry other things

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And so we thought we would play that today as we start off the program and then move on from there

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Celebrating the life of R .C. Sproul. And so let's go ahead and dive right into it

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This is so someone asked us asked me because it's you know, it's a 360

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P Resolution picture video

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Is that same room you're in now and the answer is yes it is But obviously from a camera like about right here

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Shooting up toward what is now covered and so on so forth. We weren't trying to do the video thing yet It was you know 2008 it was give us give us a break.

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Come on People are like, oh, this is terrible. Well, hey, just listen, you know turn off the video and listen

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So let's listen to the interview with with R .C. Sproul The gentleman that you all want to listen to and that is dr.

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R .C. Sproul. Dr. Sproul. How are you doing today? Hey James, it's great to talk with you again. Now.

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I have a question that I think everybody That I know of is most interested in finding out and it's normally one of those questions you ask in polite conversation

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But this time everybody really wants to know how are you? Very well

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I'm in better health now, and I have been probably in 15 year James with the notable exception of a bad wheel

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I have a bad knee and I'm scheduled for total knee replacement surgery next

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Thursday I can't wait for oh my and next Thursday. Yeah well, all

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I can say is hopefully dry heat is good for knee replacements because That's what you're going to get when you come to Scottsdale in late

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September The monsoons should be over. So the humidity should be gone and the highs

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Well, I hate to tell you we've had it as high as a hundred and three on October 23rd

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So I've been out there before You know the dry heat so much better than what we have here here.

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We don't know what dry heat is. No, just what? Well, it's hopefully will be very good for you.

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And hopefully you'll have a wonderful time out in in Scottsdale now I'm looking at the lineup that you have put together for the conference the 26th and 27th of September at its

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Scottsdale Bible Church and I'm seeing a bit of a theme here

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You are speaking on if God is sovereign How can man be free in the evening session the first night and then in the afternoon?

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What is the gospel so that sounds to me? Like you're going to be addressing are you going to be addressing

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I guess should be the way I put it some of the more common objections to reform theology

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In those titles. Yes, not only to reform theology James, but also to the

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Christian faith in general as well Okay. Now I recall very very clearly

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Reading I Was about to as you gotta remember since I wrote the Potter's freedom

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There's another chosen book in my life not chosen by God, but Some other one that I forget the title at the moment.

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But anyway, I remember very clearly in reading chosen by God a

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Line that you use at that time when you spoke of man's freedom and God's freedom

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You said God is free man is free. God is more free than I am when my freedom runs into God's freedom

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I lose And I appreciate the fact that you express that without quite the long

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Sentences that brother Edwards used to express a similar concept

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That's true, but I Want I sort of wonder if more people have read your explanation than his because it's much more accessible

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In in the same number of years since it was written, but the first talk you're going to be giving a lot of folks hear you on the radio and They know something about this

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Reforms theology business and yet most the time their objections have to do with the concept of man's will is that Are those the people you you want to reach there?

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Oh sure. I mean, this is one of the most Constant questions that I hear all the time as I'm sure you're aware of James that I've never met a

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Christian in my life who said that they didn't believe in the sovereignty of God but the idea that's pervasive out there in the culture is that God's sovereignty is limited by human freedom

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And of course if that were the case then it's not God who would be sovereign But we would be sovereign

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We say yes that Human freedom is real

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But it's limited and it is always in everywhere limited by so that we have to place the limitation

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At the proper point the other problem that I think that all Christians wrestle with particularly in America is that when we talk about free will we tend to we have been realizing that the

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Common and popular understanding of free will is not the Christian view but is humanistic secular view, you know

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The common view of free will is that that we have the ability equal ability to?

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Evil and so anytime let me ask you you have been

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Ministering the word many more years than I have I'm Catching up percentage -wise, but I never will in any other way and I have noticed so I'd like to get your take on this

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I have noticed that it certainly seems to me like coming through the front door of the church is an a veritable flood of worldly thinking so many in the church today do not have a purposely formed

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Christian worldview and As such they bring the very concepts you were just speaking in regards to Freedom of the will and things like that.

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They bring it right into their interpretation of the Christian faith. Have you seen?

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a trend toward that that makes it for each passing decade that much more necessary to cover the basics and to Challenge people to have a biblical worldview because it's so invasive within the church

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Without question James. I really believe that every one of us no matter how well -trained we may be in theology or how

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Devoted we are in our personal faith. We're exposed every day to all kinds of ideas

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That are on a collision course with the biblical truth and we we don't always recognize them and I think all of us have allowed certain ideas to creep into our thinking and One of the goals of the

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Christian life is to gain the mind of Christ that means that every value that I have every concept that I have every viewpoint that I espouse

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I have to keep examining According to now you you are involved of course in the ministry of the church

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You're involved with being obedient in that way as we're all called to be that way wouldn't you?

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Agree that really that's where God has intended that kind of remedial

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Reformation being conformed the image of Christ resisting the pressures of the world Isn't that first and foremost to be found in the proclamation of God's Word within the church?

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well to my in my 45 years of teaching James I Haven't been able to find any other place.

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Hi. I'm resisting Saying too many amens here cuz I'm reformed Baptist. We don't really do that, but If that's the one thing

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I have to complain about about reformed Baptist is we do not aim in enough It just it would really help me out when

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I'm preaching to but If you guys don't have it in the reformed Baptist, I mean, what do you think it's like in the church

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I stopped

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I Know exactly what you mean by that, but you know when when you say when you were just speaking of a lack of confidence in the ministry of the word the authority of the word the power of the word and I would say could we could we criticize ourselves could we criticize reformed people that In some ways we tend to be afraid of speaking of the power of the

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Spirit Likewise being so absolutely necessary for the successful preaching of the word

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You know, there may be a lot of truth in that and it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense

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You know Nobody's name is more closely identified with historic reform theology than John Calvin a lot of people like to keep that a secret

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Because he's been so vilified but among other things Calvin was described as the theologian of the

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Holy Spirit Calvin really drove the point constantly that the preaching of the word is impotent and the less that it is accompanied by the spirit and I know every every

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I preach every Sunday morning and Sunday night James and before every message

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I pray for the spirits Power to descend and it's not a rote thing.

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Hmm. I make that prayer because I understand that my words will be absolutely useless unless the spirit accompanies the theology puts a great deal of emphasis on regeneration on rebirth

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And we understand that's where the sovereignty of God is most powerfully Influenced and affected by For people right, right and yet you certainly have to have been just as The only term

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I can use is is shocked to read so many Non -reformed men who

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When you proclaim the freedom of God and bring about regeneration you proclaim

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The power of the spirit and taking out the heart of stone giving a heart of flesh

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The terminology that is often used to in essence disagree, and I have a hard time not saying sometimes mock that freedom of God saying that that God is

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Engaging in divine rape or he's he's rewiring us against our will so on so forth

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It it truly Concerns me when I when I hear that kind of response to the assertion that it's

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God through the preaching of the word the power of the spirit is Glorifying himself through the gospel and drawing his people into himself and to see people treat it that way.

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Do you ever? Do you ever have opportunity of talking with some of those folks and saying?

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What in the world are you talking about when you say that kind of thing? He's sure just about every day as you can imagine chance, but I mean

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I wish that every Christian who is would just be

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Listening in to a conversation that's record in the same chapter where we have drawn 316 between where Jesus talks about being born again and When Jesus talks to Nicodemus about rebirth

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He makes it clear that there's a necessary condition Before they come to saving faith our

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Lord. It's our Lord not John Calvin or Paul Jesus this is unless a man is born

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He can't even see the kingdom of God ignorant and yet we have

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Multitudes of Christian people who are out there saying that you can come to faith

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Without being born again The whole idea is that you have faith and then as a result of your faith or the result of your decision the result of your choice

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Then you will be reborn Just the opposite of what Jesus says

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Jesus says we're born in the flesh and the flesh can do nothing and that which is born Of the flesh is flesh and the necessary condition for saving faith is rebirth

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You know Jesus reiterates that the sixth chapter of John when he says nobody can come to me

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Unless it is given to him by the father. So I think the great line of the vision Historically on this point of theology is the order

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Does faith come and then reap, you know

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James that? rebirth precedes faith and if it didn't nobody would ever

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Born again, we're in the flesh and as Jesus indicated the flesh prophets nothing in the

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Luther reiterated that by saying that Nothing is not a little something Well, I know that I have

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Taken a lot of heat for saying similar things in regards to the logical precedence of regeneration to saving faith

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But that's okay We'll continue to take that that heat as we as we look to what the scriptures say about the gospel but it really takes us back to The upcoming conference in September because you're going to be finishing things up By talking about what is the gospel now is that?

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You know you have been over your career involved in so many discussions about so many aspects of the gospel

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Is it are you going to be addressing a particular aspect here or is this more general?

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What direction are you planning on going when you speak that subject let me back just go back a little bit national books on the floor

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Where they ask people there and these are people who weren't right in the middle of Christian education

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They asked a simple question. What is the gospel as a

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Phoenix what is the gospel, but he seems to think they know what the gospel is.

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You ask people. What is the gospel? let's say it means that Jesus can be your

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Savior and You can have Forgiveness and all the idea of gospel in the

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New Testament. What has been a club

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Jesus? The gospel is what Christ who Christ is what he has done

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And we receive the benefits of his work We need to go back to the fundamentals here to understand people say

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I'm and I'll do the same thing I'll ask the clerk you said something many years ago that again has

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Stuck with me For a long long time, but it really bothers a lot of people.

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I don't don't mean to Upset you to inform you that you said things that bother people

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Something tells me you're you're fully aware of that fact and I very much appreciate your willingness to do that, but You you like to sometimes turn things on their head things that have been sort of accepted

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Traditionally turn them upside down to make people think and Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty certain it was you that said the question is not

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What will you do with Christ? The question is what will Christ do with you and that is so counter to so much of the

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What's called? Evangelicalism today that it truly causes people to stop and think and many people find that Offensive and yet what you just said about the gospel sounds to me like you're saying look the gospel is about what

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God has accomplished in Christ first and foremost So that's

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Turned upside down. I would just like to just hone that a little bit Basically what I've said in that context is in the final analysis.

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The question is not do you know Jesus? But this Jesus know you And I draw that from the conclusion of the

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Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapter 7 when Jesus said that Many will come to him on the last day

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Saying the Lord Lord, didn't we do this your name? Did we do that in your name? And he's gonna look at them and say

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Who are you? Depart from me. I never knew you and Is is this

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James that? One of the big props we have in our zeal for evangelism

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And I wish we had even more zeal for evangelism than we do, but we want so much so desperately to see our friends and loved ones and even our people who we've never met before come to a saving knowledge of Christ that we kind of try to and We have multitudes of people who profess

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Jesus they come to the altar they raise their hand They say their prayer. And of course, we supposed to make a profession of faith

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Look, these people honor me with their lips, you know, you hear all this stuff about the carnal

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Christian the person that's been created took most definitely and when you look at the results in the church of filling the church with people who have

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No concept of the holiness of God, they have no concept of their own sin. They have no concept of Repentance toward God Can there be a more?

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terrible thing than to instruct a man to go and try to minister the life of God to Spiritually dead people.

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I mean how many people have you seen over your lifetime who? Had a desire to go into ministry they encounter that and now they now they do computers they do something

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You know completely different than that because I heard was 16 ,000 pastors every year leave the ministry.

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Oh my Wide variety of reasons for that, but that's a huge number It is a huge number and I think part of it part of that number

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We can't know what is due to the the tremendous trial of trying to Lead an unregenerate flock

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And there is so much pressure and I I don't you you know, the the Presbyterian Church is better than I do.

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I know that Recently a lot of attention was focused on the Southern Baptist Convention and the fact that their baptism numbers are are down And there's discussion about a the passage of a you know

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Resolution at the convention actually promoting the idea of church discipline What an amazing thing that was and and yet there is such a pressure

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Placed upon especially young pastors to in essence quote -unquote perform But but is there anybody out there telling these young pastors that there's the standard that they have to reach for is that which?

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They will bring before the throne of God not the numbers standards at the denomination might be coming up But we know the organization called together for the gospel, which is almost every other year

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We have conferences for and this past year at least young group of pastor and they're being

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Enforcing is and and what the role of the pastor is you have the shepherds conference the drama car that he's encouraged

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CEO Most definitely and I think so many people

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I see it in teaching in seminary so many of those young men are extremely conflicted because they see what the word says that there's what they're supposed to be doing and Yet the church does require them to wear so many different hats and to do so many different things that That they are truly torn and as a result

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Unfortunately frequently take the shortcuts when it comes to sermon preparation and when that becomes

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Necessary to keep the numbers up. It's it's a sad thing to it's a sad thing to see now our times running out with you

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I just wanted to Give you one last opportunity when you are going to be speaking in Scottsdale and you're going to be addressing

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What is the gospel? would this be something that we would want to bring people to who maybe have

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Some misunderstandings concerning the nature of God's grace Concerning maybe have some inflated views of man's role in regards to Salvation is this something we'd want to make sure that they they hear well

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Let me tell you that what is Jesus the only way this man and finally what is the gospel?

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So you can see there's a variety of questions What we call it not only from outside the church but from within the church, right, right

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And so all of these especially where John MacArthur's gonna be addressing is Jesus the only way I'm assuming

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With the rampant pluralism that's going to be addressed at that point J. Ligon Duncan postmodernism

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These are all extremely difficult questions that are coming into the church And so I would imagine you're you're hoping that everyone from across the

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Valley of the Sun which by the way Are you aware is the fifth largest? Urban area in the

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United States. We passed Philadelphia a couple of years ago Yeah, it's it's it's a big place.

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Lots and lots of people many many unchurched people here Well 25 years ago

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James. I used to spend four months a year in Scottsdale writing Hmm, and and I would go play golf sometimes out the desert

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And where I used to go play golf in the desert anymore, no Yes, yes, believe me

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I moved here in 1974 and There there wasn't much out there

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There is there is now it's I don't know where all these people work And I don't know where we get the water for him either.

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I really don't but They're still moving here. And if we had the kind of weather we have during the winter here all the time

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We wouldn't have a place to stack the people but Thankfully, it's about a hundred and six degrees and semi -humid outside right now and that helps keep the population down.

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So Well now you said that you're going to be having some surgery so I'm certain that myself and many others would wish to pray for you and pray for your rapid recovery from that and So that would probably mean that when you come to Scottsdale this next time you're not gonna be looking at playing any golf

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No, I don't think so Yeah, well, we just hope that you have an excellent trip out

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I'm sure that many people will be looking forward to have an opportunity of greeting you and Certainly, I want to thank you for taking the time to be with us today on the program and and that there will be many people who will make the choice to be there in September to hear these important questions faced and Certainly are thankful for your lifelong ministry and equipping the people of God Well, I certainly hope so as well, thank you very much sir.

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All righty. Thank you. Thank you for calling. God bless. Bye All right, folks.

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There was the interview we did in 2008 with with RC Sproul and You know,

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I saw a picture I forget when it was just Within the past year and a half of RC outside an abortion clinic in the

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Florida area and He was on oxygen and so we know, you know, even when we had done the

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Know in that interview. I asked him how he was doing. He had had his stroke at that point in time And so when we were on the cruise together

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They're asking do not take flash photography that can cause real problems for dr.

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Sproul and things like that. So obviously it had His physical difficulties, but we we knew you know with with how dependent he was upon oxygen there toward the end that it was difficult time for him, but Everyone you know,

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I Everyone knew this was coming and We are reminded of our own mortality when we

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Consider the lives of others, especially those who have influenced us so much and a number of people said on on Twitter, you know, it was

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Reading Sproul's book and the Potter's freedom, you know brought me into reformed theology. Well if the

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Potter's freedom was involved then Sproul sort of like your granddaddy in in being introduced reformed theology because for me

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This was the first little book that I saw this was this was Dwayne Spencer's the five points of Calvinism in the light of scripture and This was given and this is a short little this is a little booklet.

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It's almost a track type thing that someone at the church I was going to gave to my wife and She brought home and you know,

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I'm I'm in seminary, you know, and but most of my exposure to reformed theology specifically using that term

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Had been to hyper Calvinism I think I mentioned this before the first guy that I ever talked to that I knew was a

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Calvinist was a guy that was Mocking me for going out to the Mesa Easter pageant and passing out tracts the

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Mormons if they're elect They'll get saved, you know I have to go out there and do all that kind of stuff and that really turned me off to it and I remember looking at this and going well, you know

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And then I I knew a fellow by the name of Tony and Tony was Calvinist and I I remember

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You know going well, you know, I a lot of that sounds about right to me and But you know that limited atonement thing, you know,

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I'm just not so sure about that and he wanted to talk about that and then

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I Was either got hold of or given this and this these are the actual books.

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I just dragged them out of the That part of the library and you can see there's lots of lots of yellow in in here

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But this was Edwin Palmer's The five points of Calvinism and it was it was in here

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That I was I was hit with with the question Well, you know did

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It is there a is there an atonement did The question that needs a precise answer is this did he or didn't he

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Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn't he if he did then it was not for all the world

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For then all the world would be saved page 47 of the old edition and And That's what made me start going

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Man, I've really got to think through this. This is what I really started realizing. This is making sense and That's when

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I got this book 12 of 86 so 31 years ago

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Is the date on this chose my god R .C. Sproul, I remember Some of the classes

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I was taking at the time and and I started reading through this book and you know chose my god's not a huge.

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I love that picture of R .C. in the back. Wow It's not a it's not a big huge tome, you know, it's less than 200 pages long and and you know fairly small pages but Sproul write writes wrote so well and It was really this let's go over here it was really this that That got got through to me it's what really made it

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Made it understandable and and got me from the ooh, that's making sense stage to the yeah, that's that's exactly right stage and And For many many other people that that's what that's what did it and It's so ironic that years later when

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I wrote the Potter's freedom that Norman Geisler's reaction to my writing that book was that I had stuck my nose in something that was none of my business and As he himself said to another individual who can testify that he said this he said

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He stuck his nose into something as I was this is between me and R .C. Sproul now the thought across my mind that chosen but free was a title response to chosen by God But I just didn't give too much thought to it.

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But once I heard that then I realized yeah, that's that's exactly What it is, it's exactly what the intention was it was a response to R .C.

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Sproul's book Well, it wasn't because it didn't seem to even understand the argument behind it. But yeah as it may

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So yeah chosen by God and then that caused me to pick this up and Within this is 1286 as well.

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So within a few days I would imagine of reading chosen by God I Picked up the holiness of God and Read it in one sitting

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I did I I normally don't do that. I Could not you know people say I couldn't put this book down.

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No, I couldn't put this book down It's it's honestly to my knowledge. It's the only book that once I started reading it,

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I could not stop reading it until You know 1 3 in the morning whenever it was that I got done with it.

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I read it in one one sitting and That's why there's no Marking in it or anything like that.

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I I blew all the way through it and that just solidified everything else was the holiness of God and and what it meant and then there's another book pleasing

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God, which is extremely useful as well, so Every you know every century every generation really has those people that Have a tremendous impact upon us all and You know for years

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I've seen ever since YouTube came along and you started getting

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People attacking reformed theology you get these people there's this

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RC spruill guy and he's wrong about this Could always could always tell they really hadn't done their their homework real well

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But as we see Changes going on in what is called

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Reformed the reformed movement in the United States, especially but in most

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Western countries We have we have much to thank God for dr.

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Sproul's life and Many others as well, but but he really was the big name

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For the vast majority of us I'm not sure what he would think of of some of what's going on now

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I think we're seeing the repetition of things from the past to be honest with you very concerned about it

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Reformed theology had a strong presence in England at a certain time and then it's sort of imploded from within and I'm Wondering if and it was an implosion

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That was aided, you know in one direction it goes into liberalism the other direction it went into hyperism into a cold lifeless

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Orthodoxy and and the one thing about Calvinism with RC is it was never cold and lifeless

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When you when you communicate When you try to communicate reform theology without a change of heart when you when you try to make it genetic or Cultural it becomes ugly

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And it dies and that wasn't That wasn't how

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RC communicated it and so We rejoice in the ministry of a servant of God who's gone to his reward

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Certainly, we pray for the family But look RC prepared all of us for this he he knew he wasn't going to be here forever and We all know all of us aren't going to be here forever and You need to live your life in such a way that when your time comes you're you're ready and In I think

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I think dr. Sproul did that and So we are thankful very very thankful for his his time

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So with that you will be seeing lots and lots of video

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I Just saw just right now Alistair Begg shares his thoughts on RC Sproul's life and ministry and there's just all sorts of folks there that Will be sharing their remembrances

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And we just we just thank the Lord for that that gift to his to his church So with that let's shift gears because I've only got so much time today

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Real quickly Thank you, dr. Gurry Just got a note from dr.

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Gurry both message and on Twitter Definitely be getting get to it get together with him on the

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CBGM stuff Once I have thoroughly marked up his Brill publication on CBGM first both

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I and my my doctoral advisor have Have questions that we would like to see if anyone has thought of the answers to yet But that raises the question of the rest of our of our study

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Today study program, whatever you want to call it. This is frequently a study, you know, sometimes it's entertaining but often it's just simply a study and that is

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I Wonder if if dr. Gurry would like me to give his name to some of my critics so he could be included in cartoon versions of Of Criticisms that people have of modern scholarship.

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Maybe he wants to stay far far away from that. I don't know But a few days ago a

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Video appeared on YouTube from a mr.

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Sheffield Who has produced videos before I have? noted these videos

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I've I've looked at them. I May have mentioned them once on the program

44:27

I I do know the thought crossed my mind of playing the first one and responding to it and May did

44:34

I do you have any recollection of me having done that because I I don't I I know

44:39

I had downloaded one of them and but I don't know if I if I got around responding to it It's it's

44:45

I think I may have mentioned just briefly that You know, there was this group or somebody that was putting out these videos we were doing animation and it was me

44:55

Dan Wallace and Bart Ehrman and I May have mentioned but I'll just tell you now that the first one that I watched when it first came out

45:06

When I first are watching it, I'm like, oh great. The Roman Catholics have found Animation Because it's talking about apostolic churches and apostolic succession and all the rest of this stuff

45:21

And but then as you're listening to more and more of it No, this isn't they're not making an argument for an inspired vulgage or this isn't where Rome comes down on these issues

45:31

What what's this all about and it ended up being a received text? John Bergen style type thing in in essence

45:42

Trying to you know, completely ignoring the the differences in between myself and Dan Wallace there are differences

45:48

There aren't many but there are differences at least an emphasis and certainly ignoring the massive huge differences in understanding presupposition between Dan Wallace and myself and Bart Ehrman Dan Wallace myself as a group and Bart Ehrman In regards to the supernatural nature of the text and and issues such as that But it's hard to respond to videos in that way

46:19

Because it takes just so much time yeah, you have to play so much stuff There's a lot of stuff. You don't necessarily want to play that It's not really not responding to but it's taking up time on your programs.

46:29

Yeah, so I don't think I ever played it On the air, but there's a series of them that came out and I'd look at them and go

46:38

And sort of roll my eyes and go well, you know Yeah this is something that would be worthwhile responding to but there was always something else that would be getting in the way or things like that and so Yeah, there you go see someone

46:53

Yeah there post election thoughts and an ecclesiastical text video is is that was is that the same one?

47:00

Is that the cartoon one? Post election thoughts, that's November of 2016

47:09

That's interesting. I wonder if it's the same one Yes Well, okay that so I played it.

47:15

I don't know I thought I only play if I played anything. I thought I only played a few sections of it Why don't you remember these things?

47:22

It's your job Yeah, okay. All right. All right, that's that works for me too that works for me, too

47:29

We're just getting old and that's how we need algo and This is Andy that are doing that for us.

47:36

So we just need yep. See even Dude, Rodney six dad said getting old and so yeah your response the first video with Wallace cartoons

47:44

I said, okay, so I did play a portion of it. I don't think I played all of it I think I just played a portion of well anyways so here we are in the

47:55

Christmas season and You'll notice there's no

48:00

Nativity behind me anywhere Thankfully, I'm a little surprised. There hasn't been some articles at a certain website about Star Trek, but there will be eventually anyway

48:15

Here comes this Really well made video now. I've had some people criticize ads just stock animation stuff ads another nah, man

48:23

I'll tell you what. I don't have time for this. Hi. I don't have time for this. I mean even if I if I wanted to I I mean you've got singing and voices and editing and oh my goodness and And so kudos on the excellent job

48:41

But what for me is just amazing is is what an incredible waste of time

48:48

There's so much that that this could be used for so to defend an indefensible tradition

48:54

Just is just oh It's so disheartening so so so disheartening so I've decided that it is a a teachable moment

49:09

That it is something worth addressing most definitely Because it you know it is one realm of the

49:23

There's a lot of different defenses of what we would call the the traditional text

49:31

You know either the Texas Receptus or Byzantine text

49:37

I don't even know what what Texas particular person Defends if he follows Bergen it couldn't be the

49:44

TR specifically it would have to be more of a general general Byzantine priority concept maybe a little something like I guess

49:55

Like Doug Wilson defended in our written debate sort of you know

50:01

I don't know if he'd go with the 1550 Stephanus I I just don't know But what he claims is he's defending the

50:10

Apostolic text as if he can show us That the

50:15

Texas Receptus or the Byzantine manuscript something Go back to the Apostles. He's really making that claim apostolic churches.

50:23

I mean historically that's that's causes a chuckle Because it's just simply not true.

50:29

It's not documentable But it's it's easy to make the claim and then as long as you do it with with cartoons

50:36

Okay But here's the background to this before I play because we're gonna play it the background goes back to The Preview why aren't you showing any of these?

50:55

Okay? It doesn't want oh because none of them are up great The D to D this goes back to guess

51:07

I've got to do it this way Back when Nabil Qureshi passed away

51:19

David would Did a video where He contrasted the last words of Muhammad with the last words of Jesus and the last words of Nabil Qureshi It's a great idea there's a lot to be gained from Looking at for example how

51:42

Jesus treated his enemies over against how Muhammad treated his enemies. No question about it but When I saw it and I saw the focus upon Luke 23 34,

51:55

I knew what was gonna happen Muslim apologists are well aware of textual criticism you cannot expect them to be ignorant of these things and So one of the

52:13

Muslim apologists who studies textual criticism specifically pointed out that Here David Wood is depending upon a

52:22

Text that's actually a textual variant. It's a textual variant that I have addressed in years past In fact, we had

52:28

Alan Kirshner on the program. I don't know coming up on ten years ago

52:34

Maybe less than that. I don't remember when it was somebody can look it up for me But at least five years ago between five and ten years ago

52:43

We did an entire program just on Luke 23 34 father forgive them for they know not what they do.

52:50

It is a textual variant and What that means is there are manuscripts of the

52:59

New Testament that do not contain a portion of that verse and That is

53:06

Jesus said father forgive them for they know not what they do They parted his garments. The rest of the verse is found in all the manuscripts and So I want to since there's actually been some some question about whether that's actually the case

53:24

Let me show you I'm I have on the screen right now one of the earliest

53:32

Manuscripts of the Gospel of Luke it may be the earliest or it's p75 and Right Here Well sort of yeah,

53:50

I guess you can sort of see it moving up and down there right there is where Father forgive them for they know not what they do should be found as you can see it's not there.

54:01

There's no evidence of any tampering The rest of text isn't squished together or expanded out as if something's been erased

54:10

P75 which is late 2nd century Which is also the

54:19

If you recall, I've talked about p75 and Codex Vaticanus Codex Vaticanus And P75 we know from the analysis of these two manuscripts go back to an earlier

54:36

That they're they're connected Vaticanus is not a copy of p75

54:43

But they go back to an even earlier Manuscript that they share in common in their genealogy, which would put it

54:54

At the latest around 150 maybe as early as 125. And so you're talking extremely

55:01

Extremely early here when you have the conjunction of Vaticanus and p75 you have a reading that simply has to Be considered to be one of the most primitive readings in New Testament textual tradition and so in light of that There's p75 and Here is

55:36

Every time I change this they have got to come up with a better way of working this this this thing it is just Yeah Here is

55:49

Codex Vaticanus at the very place where once again

55:55

It would be right there And it's not there. Oh That's not how it's supposed to look it's only supposed to be this part but Okay.

56:06

Anyway, you can figure it out from there. That's Codex Vaticanus and p75 both do not have

56:13

That particular that particular reading so likewise There is yet another that I want to show you real quick and That is

56:26

Codex Washingtonianus. Now, what's important about this is Washingtonianus is not one of the dreaded

56:33

Quote -unquote Alexandrian manuscripts it is

56:39

Proto Byzantine in many of its readings and Yet Washingtonianus likewise

56:46

Does not contain This particular reading it would be right here at the end of this line right here it is not there and There is a variant in Codex Sinaiticus Where it is taken out at a later point in time by 7th century which means even that far down the road a

57:09

Person who had access to Sinaiticus Still had access to other manuscripts that did not contain this

57:19

Particular text now we talked about What some of the reasons for this might be in?

57:26

In the program that we had on the subject you can take that down and We discussed

57:36

You know some of the theories One of the theories is that early anti -judaism would result in the removal of the text

57:52

Because you would want to Because you would want to not have the

58:01

Jews being forgiven for The crucifixion of the

58:06

Messiah and so some people have theorized this would be behind the removal of the text

58:14

Others have theorized like Philip Comfort in his textual commentary That the reason for the inclusion of the text would be you've got

58:24

Stephen forgiving those who are stoning him You can't have a martyr being more forgiving than the

58:31

Messiah himself at his execution and so You have competing theories as to why would there be the insertion?

58:41

Why would there be a deletion? There doesn't seem to be anything in the form of the text itself

58:48

Homo I tell you ton or haplography or any of the various scribal errors

58:54

That are standard in copying of manuscripts that would explain it, but the point is you have very early texts and You have a wide variety of text

59:07

I have here, but I'm not gonna bother bringing it up Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis Very unreliable text very unreliable text, but it doesn't have it originally, but has it inserted at a later point in time and so the point is

59:26

That this is the data this is the information that we possess and The The video we're gonna look at lies.

59:41

L -I -E. There isn't any excuse for it Mr. Sheffield you lied. You need to repent of it.

59:47

I'm calling you on it right now He called an attack on David Wood. That is so absurd that there's no credibility left for the man

59:54

That's why I can't take it seriously It was a lie To say in this video

01:00:01

That I attacked David Wood. I did not that's absurd and What's frightening is when people think that being truthful with history and truthful with the facts

01:00:13

Means you're attacking someone I Fear for the future of apologetics if this is what the future of apologetics looks like On the one hand you've got these people who are so defensive of a tradition

01:00:32

That they will Invest this kind of effort in The Christmas season to slander somebody.

01:00:40

It is it is a slanderous video I mean, I'm honored that you would you would think that it's worthwhile to invest this kind of time on someone such as myself, but Still it's it's just simply slanderous and what it says

01:00:58

Associating me with with heretics and just all the rest of this kind of stuff Oh Yeah, Brian Matheson tells us

01:01:06

September 5th 2008. So it's right, right, right. It didn't yeah almost 10 years is

01:01:14

When I addressed this subject with Alan Kirshner, so you if you want to hear a longer more in -depth

01:01:21

I don't think I showed Washingtonianas and all the rest of that stuff. I think we just discussed it at Yeah, yeah, that's true

01:01:29

We couldn't have shown shown a whole lot back in that that age as it was but that's the date on the dividing line

01:01:35

Which you can find on sermon audio and YouTube and so on and so forth there is a YouTube link to it there so you can go back and and Watch it watch it there

01:01:47

No, no, I should say mr. Sheffield wrote to me and he said I'm not your enemy Good to know it's nice to know that my friends will lie about me associate me with Marcian say

01:01:58

I have to repent Put Bruce Metzger in hell. These are what friends do

01:02:04

Yay, glad I have friends like that. I'm sorry. I can't take you seriously. It's really hard to take you seriously, sir not only just because the vacuousness of the argumentation, but just I I didn't attack

01:02:20

David would and For you to think well, well you agreed with the

01:02:26

Muslims I agreed that there is a textual variant there and that we need to be aware of that and we need to be honest about That that's the only way

01:02:34

I can turn around and say to the Muslim You need to be honest about the variance that exists on a palimpsest and all the other things in the

01:02:42

Quran You've got to be consistent and you traditionalist can't be that's where you're an error

01:02:49

That's where you're wrong you apply one standard defense of your traditions and something completely different when you criticize others and That's just simply not being truthful.

01:03:01

This is a deceptive Dishonest video and I'm just being straight up about it.

01:03:07

Okay? so Let's take a look at what is said Basically, here's the claim the claim is from mr

01:03:14

Sheffield is that there is an apostolic text that that you have to be able see the reason he doesn't care about p75 or Vaticanus is as he says himself.

01:03:25

In fact, I Let me see if I have it here Let me see, no, that's that's not it you let's see is that it there?

01:03:36

Yeah, okay Someone mentioned to mr. Sheffield on his YouTube page one day ago about p75

01:03:43

And he says but where does p75 come from? You need to establish the chain of custody Back to an official

01:03:50

Greek Church Now, of course, he cannot do that for the received text.

01:03:56

It's impossible. It's a No one who reads the

01:04:01

New Testament with any level of honesty knows anything about the history of the New Testament Thinks you could do that with the received text.

01:04:09

You can't do it He likes to quote Irenaeus. It's real simple Um Where's my oh, that's right.

01:04:18

I keep thinking to bring it bring it in here. Well, I could pull it up but I Definitely need to get make a note.

01:04:24

I need to bring a UBS text in here. I've got them in the other room You can do it with with with Nessie Allen though.

01:04:33

It's not Nessie Allen doesn't do nearly as much of the Patristics as as the

01:04:40

UBS text us Did he Just sing for the bill.

01:04:52

No, I do not have a UBS text in here UBS is better for this

01:05:00

Most the online materials will have it UBS 5 is really good for it. I could bring up Accordance to show it to you here, but get a critical edition the

01:05:11

Greek New Testament and He loves to quote for example Irenaeus Okay, open up almost any page in the

01:05:21

New Testament go to the Gospels Find you know a semi meaningful variant that actually impacts the meaning of the text and then start

01:05:31

Look up a few of them follow through just a few few passages. What you will find is you will find

01:05:37

Irenaeus and Tertullian and You will find that they will be cited on both sides of a variant you'll have

01:05:51

Irenaeus 1 slash 4 or Irenaeus Latin versus Irenaeus Greek or Tertullian 2 slash 3 what is all that about?

01:06:01

well two out of three times he agrees this and one out of three times he agrees the other reading and Irenaeus is one out of four this way and the

01:06:10

Latin of Irenaeus reads one way and the Greek of Irenaeus reads the other See the problem is we don't have nearly as critical edition of the patristic materials as we do in the

01:06:17

New Testament We don't we don't have as early Manuscripts of the patristic materials as we have no where close to what we have for the

01:06:26

New Testament and not only that the citations of scriptural materials from patristic sources are notoriously vague and Why is that because very often just as in well, let me give an example

01:06:43

Let me let me give an example before we can get to this give an example Matthew 23 37

01:06:52

Jesus is praying for Jerusalem Jerusalem Jerusalem you who kill the prophets the stone those who sent you how often would

01:06:59

I have done what? Well, if you're listening to Norman Geisler, it's gonna be how often would

01:07:06

I have gathered you under my wings, but you would not Because he often miscites it because that's that's what he thinks it means, but that's not what it says

01:07:17

He's going by memory, but his memory is influenced by his theology And it's how often

01:07:22

I've gathered your chicks or your children depending if you're looking at Luke or Matthew I guess I remember which one's which but there is a it's it's different than the you who would not

01:07:33

Now if someone digs up recordings of Norman Geisler to where Norman Geisler becomes a church father 5 ,000 years from now

01:07:46

Does that mean that there was? confusion in this day as to the actual reading the text or Is it recognizable that even when writing?

01:07:57

People will quote a text or just make reference to a text or use the language of a text without actually double -checking it

01:08:05

Quoting it exactly they're paraphrasing, but it's not just that years ago,

01:08:12

I played a clip of RC Sproul and RC was quoting it from memory and he misquoted it.

01:08:20

He skipped the same part Now not because of a theological issue But it's the way the mind works and So you can pretend all you want

01:08:33

That you can take the TR or some Byzantine text. I can trace this the Church at Ephesus.

01:08:39

It's a fantasy Absolutely. Show me the manuscripts show me the manuscripts from the second century contemporaneous

01:08:47

P75 says this was copied under apostolic authority in the Church of Ephesus and it reads such as a you don't have it

01:08:53

And you know it, you know it pure fantasy, so The whole idea is well, we don't we don't have to worry about P75 and after about Washingtonianus because you can't you need to establish the chain of custody

01:09:10

Back to an official Greek Church. I suppose that also means that you would believe everything

01:09:18

Irenaeus said in his writings, right? Like that stuff about Jesus being over 50 years of age when when he died

01:09:26

You agree with I mean Irenaeus wouldn't I he said the Apostles told him He said that was

01:09:34

Directly passed on to him through apostolic tradition In fact, that's the very first use of term apostolic tradition in the patristic sources from Irenaeus that Jesus over 50

01:09:42

Do you believe that Mr. Sheffield? I hope you don't but if you don't then you're completely inconsistent and your position just fell apart

01:09:50

Hmm, okay Your text cannot witness to a reading in the official

01:09:57

Greek churches if the document can't be shown to come from a Greek Church like Corinth Ephesus Athens Myrna Thessalonica Well, that means we don't know the

01:10:05

New Testament said because we don't got none of them You can pretend you do but you don't You don't have a provenance like that for any of those manuscripts

01:10:18

Marchione also produced a biblical text from the 2nd century to establish his shorter biblical text of Luke as the original readings of writings of Paul the difference between p75 and Marchione's text is

01:10:28

At least we had a good idea of the who the author was of his text and why he took out those readings Yet none of this information is available for p75

01:10:36

You have to establish a legal chain of custody back to an official church. It goes back to the Apostles This is not

01:10:45

How the New Testament was arrived at it's not how Erasmus did it That's not how

01:10:52

Beza did it. That's not how Stephanus did it. This is a modernist theory It's a modernist theory.

01:10:59

This is not how textual criticism was done back in the day He likes to make reference to Jerome and Augusta and all the rest that stuff

01:11:06

But this is not the standard that they utilize they might Oh Everybody back then want to talk about being in success succession of the

01:11:13

Apostles for everything They taught you want to do you agree with what Basil said in regards to baptizing forward three times being an apostolic tradition, too

01:11:22

You want to go there? Good luck. Have fun. Not sure what you end up believing. He says it an

01:11:27

Anglican Okay, whatever Whatever whatever you say, so this is what you got here folks.

01:11:34

So let's um I'll try Just not to stop and start

01:11:39

I've got stuff I've got to do today And I I wanted to get done in 20 minutes and it's 18 minutes long

01:11:45

So obviously that's not gonna happen, but I've already refuted most of it Foundationally, but so let's oh am

01:11:50

I mean not even feeding it to you yet. Sorry about that I was feeding you other stuff did eat to eat the

01:11:57

D window and And Quick time player and there it is.

01:12:04

All right, so you getting it now. All right. There we go By the way, this would have this would have worked a lot better For Easter I Mean the

01:12:32

Luke 23, it just doesn't fit, you know, and besides that as everyone has pointed out totally blew it

01:12:38

There is not a Coogee to be found anywhere in this cartoon Maybe the animation couldn't handle the color saturation stuff like that.

01:12:47

Maybe they just that's not it. It's not in the program. I don't know but No, Coogee means they didn't even try to actually match me.

01:12:57

I mean even today I've got a Coogee vest on Not in the full sweater, but no

01:13:03

Coogee. It's just and then me bog -bah humbug. I love Christmas It's one of my it's you know, it's my favorite time of the year.

01:13:11

And so I would I just missed it a humbug What was the original wording?

01:13:17

I knew it another variant that was written into all the church text Why those pesky scribe?

01:13:23

Yeah, you know, I always use a magical eight balls You know necromancy

01:13:29

Magical eight ball stuff like that in doing text courses and you've seen that on the dividing line We put a cordon's up when it when it gets all fuzzy and the thing blue and the stuff come on Oh, no, actually we just use the facts.

01:13:39

We just put the we just put it right out there and let people look at it You know, here's here's what manuscripts say this and this is where they're from and you know, we've been talking about CBGM I'm really interested in what

01:13:48

CBGM will say when the Luke when the Luke manuscripts come out In fact, I'll I'll make a prediction right now.

01:13:53

I'll make a prediction right now CBGM will give a higher Pre -genealogical coherence to the inclusion of the reading.

01:14:01

That's my prediction. I could be wrong Because that's also what I would have Assumed about Mark 1 1 and that wasn't the case so But there's there's there's a prediction that I'll throw out there now watch the envelope and listen to what's said brah humbug

01:14:22

Here take these documents right over to be mailed out. We need to be honest about the corruptions in our scriptures

01:14:30

So notice who it's being mailed to to Muslim by choice now How many times have

01:14:35

I? absolutely refuted Muslim by choices videos over and over and over and over and over and over and over again

01:14:44

Ah, it's ignore that and remember they put the video out first I simply responded in a truthful accurate manner

01:14:54

Notice ammunition inside. This is what you call lying. This is poisoning the well This is slander and it's a lie.

01:15:01

It's dishonest. So just just mark these things down Especially to my biggest supporters.

01:15:06

Yes, my biggest supporters the Muslims. Okay. Now remember this is a man who writes to me This is

01:15:11

I'm not your enemy again. If this is being not your enemy. I wonder what being your enemy is like I'm not sure what that would that would involve

01:15:23

But mr. Sheffield if this is not being my enemy slander lying dishonesty impugning motivations saying that I'm actually trying to help enemies of the gospel

01:15:32

That's that's being not my enemy. Gotcha. Gotcha Sorry, you don't seem overly trustworthy to me

01:16:07

That's That's a really pretty song, but I've never had anyone sing that When they came caroling at my house, that's why it just seems like there was a little bit of a stretch here

01:16:20

Maybe to make it fit or something or maybe just want to make me Scrooge or something Especially my family knows trying to make me

01:16:29

Scrooge He asked my grandkids if punkle is

01:16:34

Scrooge they're gonna go now think so doesn't really fit there They know know what they do

01:16:45

What they do I Father forgive them father forgive them brah humbug.

01:17:12

I should have known you were behind this Dr. David Wood, you know This is a variant reading of the

01:17:19

New Testament and not found in our earliest and best Manuscripts not only would

01:17:25

I never preach on it But I would never sing it either and I definitely don't want to hear it being sung now get out of here

01:17:34

Father forgive him for he does not know what he is doing

01:17:40

Never said that We're so thankful that that David Wood is so much more kind and loving than I am

01:17:49

I I always yell at little kids at my door. Yeah, that's Yeah, just always what

01:17:55

I do. That's exactly how I addressed it No, actually, it's not We discussed it.

01:18:00

We discussed the various options in regards to it You know again, this is this one that one of the useful things about seeing this is to see the difference between wild -eyed fanaticism in dedication to traditionalism and Trying to deal with issues in a meaningful fashion.

01:18:21

For example, we've been talking a little bit about the CBGM. We've been talking about some of the readings that have been placed in the na28 as Result of CBGM in the

01:18:34

General Epistles and now in Mark as it has come out in the

01:18:39

ECM That reverse earlier decisions and go back go back to what would basically be a general

01:18:47

Byzantine reading and I rejoice in any further clarification of The textual tradition of the

01:19:00

New Testament Because it's it's it's not it's I don't have some, you know, these are the ones that have the traditions

01:19:07

These are the ones these guys, you know, it's the same thing with Roman Catholics How many how often over the decades have we pointed out that Roman Catholics?

01:19:16

Have to abuse the early church fathers turn them into Roman Catholics The early church fathers were what they were

01:19:23

They didn't look like me but they didn't look like the Roman Catholics either They were what they were they believe what they believed you got to let them be what they were

01:19:31

Interpret them in the context. They were In the same way the vast majority. We're not textual critics.

01:19:37

This was not their issue and They had different texts that were popular in different areas and To try to push them into things

01:19:47

You have to end up abusing them. Well, that's what traditionalists do is you end up abusing the early church fathers turning them into something?

01:19:53

they were not if If your desire is the truth about the

01:20:00

New Testament and you want to approach it in a consistent fashion so that you can give an answer to the secularist or to the

01:20:08

Muslim or to The the Mormon or the Roman Catholic or whoever it might be

01:20:15

You have to remain balanced you don't have the luxury of Of Being this this far out of balance as Sheffield is to be so misrepresentational and To twist things so much.

01:20:32

You don't have that option because you want to reach a Much broader audience, but when you've just got the one thing, you know

01:20:39

When you're in the conspiracy theories or whatever it is You got your one tradition and everybody's against me

01:20:44

Then you don't have to worry about all that stuff because you've just got one approach and so you can become imbalanced in defense of that one position

01:20:52

You see we see this all the time Depends on you know, what the imbalance is and you know, what traditions being defended?

01:21:00

I mean, what would make latent flowers? Say that we create creatio ex nihilo by our free will

01:21:10

Where does that imbalance come from? Well, because he'll there's only one subject he's dealing with I am so thankful that we were never allowed from the start to be a one -subject ministry

01:21:23

You've you've got to you've got to stay centered if you're gonna be dealing with all the different perspectives that we're that we're dealing with I rebuke you.

01:21:31

Dr. David would father forgive them in Luke 2334 where's your evidence would?

01:21:40

Now again, nothing like that happened That's that's not what

01:21:46

I did in the dividing line. That's not how we addressed it So, why do you have to why do you have to make this type of thing up?

01:21:52

Well, because you don't really have an argument you're trying to get an audience. I mean, mr Sheffield contacted a

01:21:58

Paula Gia Paul Gia Studios wanting to have equal time to respond to what I was gonna do today

01:22:04

He wanted to be on the program today, and I'm like why? You you slander me you lie about me you twist things

01:22:12

But you want on here's somebody who needs an audience Wants and needs an audience and sees an opportunity to get it.

01:22:23

I don't know. I Don't know. No, he wrote to me, but that was after them. I don't know.

01:22:29

I don't know neat You know when you need an audience you that's that's that's what you that's what's yeah

01:22:38

Repent James White James Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what what

01:22:48

Bruce Metzger wore in life Yeah It's me

01:22:55

Don't you remember? I don't have much time

01:23:03

Lord are you speaking to me? It's me

01:23:08

Bruce Metzger Repent now James you still have time

01:23:15

I have come here to warn you on each of three

01:23:20

Consecutive nights you will be visited by a ghostly spirit they will show you the error of your ways and Document the textual evidence in support of father forgive them in Luke's 23 34 as the original words in Luke's gospel

01:23:42

What are you talking about Bruce? My misinformed theories have condemned me

01:23:49

James Now I must wander you to comment sections for the rest of time you um

01:24:00

YouTube comment sections for the rest of time I I don't

01:24:09

I don't know. I can't answer that question either. I have no earthly idea still have time

01:24:16

Don't you see James? We have exalted ourselves like the

01:24:22

Popes of old Over the text of Scripture and have declared what is and what isn't

01:24:28

Scripture Now why wouldn't that be the case as well? with Irenaeus or Tertullian or any anybody else unless unless you actually accept the idea that they somehow had some type of Apostolic authority at which point

01:24:44

I don't know how you hold the soul of scriptura or any of these other things It's it see that that's that's the problem with these, you know, you know,

01:24:55

I'll be honest Look at my interaction with Doug Wilson both back in the 90s and the book little debate.

01:25:01

We just did When you get down to asking the specific questions this position ends up Becoming very circular and become very becoming very much

01:25:11

Well, that's just what we claim and without it You can't have what we think you're supposed to have or something along those lines.

01:25:18

That's why it's not defensible Outside of those circles now. Mr. Sheffield says he just defeated

01:25:24

Bart Ehrman in some debate But then when he told me what it was I could tell it was some online combox Discussion which

01:25:30

I'm sorry whatever That's fascinating but but as it may

01:25:40

I'm taking too much time. Is this different to Rome's magisterium? Bruce how can you say this?

01:25:48

We are pioneers of our time and we have begun to restore the scriptures to its original form

01:25:55

Where have I ever said? I'm a pioneer of my time. I I don't I don't remember ever having said that I don't make that claim

01:26:03

By any stretch of the imagination, I don't think Dan Wallace makes that claim The reality is that the responsibility of a believing

01:26:15

New Testament scholar is to take into consideration everything that the

01:26:22

Lord gives to us and That over the past hundred years the church has been given a massive treasure in the papyri in the ability now to collate literally thousands of manuscripts

01:26:38

CBGM is giving us the opportunity of having a database with all those readings so we can start to relate

01:26:45

Manuscripts to one another that no other generation has been able to have and it's at the exact same time

01:26:50

We have the most vociferous attacks upon the New Testament. So we need that kind of information right now in light of the internet and the rise of secularism and everything else and So if you want to be a faithful servant

01:27:07

And you you know, just like Tischendorf, Tischendorf believed in the inspiration of New Testament That's why he he believed that there would be more manuscripts.

01:27:16

He believed that there would be older manuscripts. It would help to confirm the original readings of the

01:27:21

New Testament That doesn't make us somehow better than than those before us

01:27:29

I'm sure that was the desire of People in the ancient world as well They just didn't have access to some of the information we have access to now

01:27:43

So the reality is I Have much more in common with Erasmus Than these guys do because Erasmus didn't use their methodology

01:27:57

He couldn't have even if he wanted to but but that's not the the way that he viewed textual criticism

01:28:03

That's rather ironic thing. It's been lost for the last 1 ,600 years.

01:28:09

No, I don't believe it's been lost for 1 ,600 years. That's a common misrepresentation There may be

01:28:19

The the rise of the ecclesiastical text Certainly resulted in the adoption of traditional additions in certain places

01:28:30

That the analysis of earlier manuscripts demonstrates were not not original that doesn't mean it was lost

01:28:38

I can't think of any readings that were quote -unquote lost Down through time in that in that sense at all common misrepresentation.

01:28:47

There's a lot of it. This is your standard, you know, the traditionalist I suppose

01:28:54

There may be misrepresentations of the traditionalist by non by modern scholarship, but in general the the attitude of traditionalist is we must misrepresent modern scholarship, whereas Modern scholarship pretty much just ignores all this.

01:29:09

I'm one of the few people that even bothers to respond to it Your research paved the way for this I still don't understand you will

01:29:16

James I'm out of time repent But I am irrefutable

01:29:28

Yeah, I said all the time no actually I never have and in this area

01:29:36

You know, I would love to see Sound argumentation that is not based upon traditionalism that would further

01:29:50

Establish our full understanding of the original text of the Gospel of Luke and If for example papyri of Luke were to be found that contained this reading if Further collations if CBGM and it's ever more ever more maturing

01:30:13

Manifestations allows us to create a local and global stammata stemma and stammata that would allow us to see how

01:30:27

Readings developed that would verify the reading great.

01:30:32

Wonderful I would look forward to that. See the difference between me and traditionalists is that I'm willing to let the facts

01:30:40

Determine the reading of the text they have a text and the facts have to fit That's just how it works

01:30:47

That's what the King James only ism That's what these traditionalists what you do is you pick you pick the quotes from your church fathers and figure position ignore everything else

01:30:55

You pick the facts about the early manuscript ignore everything else if you If you really honor the truth and really really really believe the

01:31:03

New Testament is true You don't have to do that and you don't want it and you can't do that. It's just not you Can't go that you can't go that way

01:31:10

I'll go forgive them. It's a variant. It's not in our earliest and best text now, by the way,

01:31:18

I Do not sleep with a papyrus roll As you saw that there though there were people on Twitter that did comment that they would not be surprised if I did

01:31:28

Which I find odd but I I I don't and generally sleep rather well because I've normally done like some huge amount of rowing or riding and so I Just don't go my precious

01:31:43

James White wake up What are these conspiracy theories you've been promoting which speak out against Jesus's final words on the cross found in Luke 23 34 now, of course

01:31:58

Conspiracy theories speak against Jesus's words. The prejudicial language here is absurd and Not only that Obviously Irenaeus wouldn't have known anything about chapter and verse divisions, but we can let that one slide

01:32:13

There are lots of anachronisms in here including Metzger dressed like he lived back in Dickens's day

01:32:19

Ah It's not in the earliest and best text so you reject

01:32:25

I would love to have a copy of p75 that I could just simply Unroll like that though.

01:32:32

I would obviously never do it that way. It's sort of old and fragile but anyway

01:32:38

Extent have come down through the official apostolic churches, which independently witnessed to this reading in Luke 23 34

01:32:45

But now there's the claim There's the claim Come down from the apostolic churches independently witness.

01:32:52

Where's your Evidence, I want the manuscripts. I want the exact you show me the manuscripts that say this manuscript was written in the second century in Corinth and it says

01:33:11

Luke 23 34 is original Well, I want to see this Well, you have this seventh century, but that's not gonna do it

01:33:20

Unless you're gonna believe everything that those seventh century fathers say Was based upon tradition

01:33:29

This is not it's a nut. It sounds like a wonderful claim, but it's pure fantasy

01:33:36

It's fantasy It doesn't exist You can go well, but the consistency of the readings over time and and and oh, that's all nice But what you're doing is you are anachronistically

01:33:51

Reading categories back into the early period that you know in your heart of hearts.

01:33:58

You cannot substantiate You cannot substantiate you can pretend

01:34:03

But you can't do it Some unknown provenance Well, it must must have been added by by scribes to all the known texts more conspiracy theories

01:34:15

James How did your pesky scribes get it into the majority of independent Greek Latin and Aramaic?

01:34:22

Church texts in the ancient world without anyone ever noticing. Ah Maybe they were ninja scribes

01:34:29

Yeah, now we can all chuckle None of us have ever suggested that by any stretch of the imagination and actually

01:34:40

When you look at the UBS 5 apparatus for example, which would be more generally available

01:34:47

Than going to the CN TTS And like I said, I'm really looking forward to Luke coming out.

01:34:55

It's not one of the next ECM volumes to be released But Other than p75 a later corrector

01:35:08

Sinaiticus Vaticanus the original hand of D Washingtonianus Theta, which is a rather important early

01:35:16

Early unseal and 0 7 0 5 7 9 5 9 7 12 41 or minuscules that likewise don't have it

01:35:23

Problem here is you likewise have at least two streams of the Latin the

01:35:28

Syriac one Form of the Syriac the Sahitic Coptic and part of the

01:35:35

Boheric That does not contain this reading and then it's very important to recognize

01:35:41

That there are variations Found in When when you have the manuscripts that contain the reading which are the vast majority

01:35:52

When you have them there are variants Found in them and That is always sort of the telltale sign of A textual variant that becomes very popular

01:36:10

Especially you have the same type of thing with the story of the woman taken adultery You'll have a fair amount of textual variation within its

01:36:20

Appearances in later manuscripts But there is no question that especially in the patristic sources

01:36:31

That this is cited By the vast majority of early church fathers, but when we say early church fathers

01:36:40

We're talking long after or at least contemporaneous well long after p75 and Contemporaneous with all if and be and Around the times of of Beze and Washingtonianus So there are other

01:37:00

Translational versions that do not contain the text that are not mentioned here

01:37:05

Who has bewitched you into believing these fairy tales? Why do you also reject the independent testimony of apostolic bishops and fathers of the church to include myself?

01:37:17

Clement Hippolytus origin Eusebius Hillary Basil Gregory Nisa Ambrose Didymus Chris Austen Jerome Augustine Theodoret John Damascus and many others

01:37:32

Irranius this is the consensus view of most modern textual critics about Actually, no and again

01:37:43

Seemingly the the objection here is that I've I've dared to let people know about something that is

01:37:50

Documented and printed in every Greek New Testament critical edition the

01:37:56

Greek New Testament The information is not hidden and I reject the idea that we should hide

01:38:04

From the history of the New Testament text when I find Christian apologists pretending that we should hide from these things or saying, you know, you're you're you're aiding the

01:38:15

Muslims by You know, the whole idea here is The Muslims said something was true.

01:38:23

You should never agree with the Muslim even when they say something is true that's that's that's what you've got here is

01:38:31

If the Muslims say the sky is blue you need to disagree with the Muslim.

01:38:36

That is not a Christian perspective and The handling of historical information

01:38:45

In this fashion and this idea of Well, you know we have all you know

01:38:52

I've never said That it's the consensus That this is not original.

01:38:59

What I said is it's a serious textual variant and It should be treated as a serious textual variant and that when you have a serious textual variant

01:39:10

You should not in an apologetic context place a tremendous amount of Theological weight upon a text that could be properly and fairly questioned as to its specific reading and So I don't think that you should build a theology

01:39:32

Based upon this text a lot of people have Have extended the meaning of this text greatly

01:39:40

I just don't think that's wise now if what you're saying is the consensus of Christian scholarship is that we need to be very careful with our text and That we shouldn't build theology upon a disputed text

01:39:52

Yeah, that is a consensus. That is a consensus But my response to this kind of abuse of church history

01:40:04

By somehow saying that as long as an early church father was familiar with the reading that that means

01:40:11

That you should use patristic sources over against documentary sources Yeah, I'll I'll reject that one all day long

01:40:20

I I do not believe that patristic citations can overcome the actual manuscript evidence that we possess especially because of the state of the critical text of the patristic sources themselves which come from a much later period of time and The nature of patristic citation itself if that's what's being referred to great

01:40:42

But my response that all this argumentation about well, you know As long as you can somehow associate with Corinth or Ephesus, you know, that somehow makes it the official text

01:40:52

I just go prove it Show me the manuscripts Give me show me your genealogy.

01:40:58

Tell me how you've done this I'd like to know how Because the vast majority of manuscripts in the first thousand years have

01:41:09

No scribal names. No origination How we know where they came from is a pure matter of speculation on our part

01:41:19

So you can pretend all this stuff all you want Sounds great. But how do you how do you defend it?

01:41:28

Hey, but how many of your scholars studied with a man who was appointed by the

01:41:33

Apostle John over the churches of Asia Minor like I did. Okay, Irenaeus you

01:41:38

Yeah, you got me there. No, it has nothing to do with it Irenaeus wasn't a textual scholar

01:41:46

Are you seriously telling me that somehow the That now we have somebody claiming see it's one thing when

01:41:56

Irenaeus claims that Jesus was over 50 years of age and I guess as As an

01:42:02

Anglican, maybe you could you? Actually holds the recapitulation theory because that was Irenaeus's view of the

01:42:08

Atonement, which we don't believe of course, but So you you would be willing to reject some of the weirdness in Irenaeus's theology

01:42:18

But somehow the textual issue Was the focus and so the text becomes the essence of the apostolic tradition passed down Is that how this is working?

01:42:33

It's sort of hard to figure it out But again, you know, I've heard all these things before that's why

01:42:38

I said the first time I listened to the first video Oh, the Roman Catholics have found animation because it's it's

01:42:44

Rome's argument This is this is just just repackaged Romanism on that level as far as the you know

01:42:52

It's really easy to go. Well, there's this apostolic teaching see and it was passed down this way and that way I don't really have to prove it because it you know, it comes from the

01:43:00

Apostles and and Blah blah blah. I've heard that before And I've challenged it for a long long time

01:43:09

But you're still wrong bah humbug James you also seem to be unaware of the historical situation in the second and third century that the apostolic

01:43:21

Churches were dealing with are you ignorant to the fact the Marcian mutilated the Gospel of Luke?

01:43:27

Redacting passages of Scripture he considered to be Jewish Does not John Burgeon and Bart Ehrman both cite that the anti -jewish sentiment of the second and third?

01:43:37

Centuries as a major factor for this passage being removed from some biblical texts

01:43:43

That is one theory and it's a theory that I would disagree with both Bergen and Ehrman on and don't have any problem doing that I think again just as Philip Comfort points out there's just as just as much a reason to believe that the insertion be based upon a desire for Jesus to be as gracious and forgiving as Stephen was the

01:44:05

Language is very similar to what Stephen says in in that and if you want to start talking about theology of text

01:44:12

You want to start speculating on? things So you're saying? Let's let's let's let's just let's just apply this

01:44:22

Prove that there is more anti -jewish Bias in p75

01:44:32

Based upon this it has something to do with Marcion here's your problem p75 is

01:44:39

Contemporaneous with Marcion, but it's readings because of its relationship to Vaticanus probably go before Marcion That'd be sort of hard to make it the result of Marcion wouldn't it?

01:44:50

Oh, and why wouldn't there be a consistent anti -jewish bias through the rest of it? Why aren't there other? Massive textual variants like that You see these this is the conspiracy theory

01:45:01

These are the ninjas Okay, you've got a tradition. So you do with the facts what you need to do with the facts to make them fit your theory

01:45:09

Or you're well, actually it's not your theory. It's your conclusion You can do this with anything

01:45:16

You know the the Mormons do it with to come up with their view of early church history and everybody does it unless you have some kind of control and That's what

01:45:28

New Testament scholarship is supposed to provide to you is that kind of that kind of control

01:45:33

You also blind to the fact that the first corrector on your precious text

01:45:39

Sinaticus removed Luke 23 34 from the text clearly demonstrating an instance where this specific

01:45:46

Passage was removed from a biblical edition That was about 700 years after the time of Christ Which would have had nothing to do with Marcion.

01:45:56

I guess they guess they forgot about that so so here you have a Fact it's true that the

01:46:07

Sinaiticus 2 if you look at the UBS text Well Sinaiticus 1 actually

01:46:15

Which is about 700 years after Christ removes at Sinaiticus 2 about 1200 years after Christ reinserts it

01:46:24

What would be the purpose 700 years after Christ Marcion's dead and gone narcissism is dead and gone

01:46:31

What Does that have to what what that really shows When you don't play the games of trying to come up with speculation to support your theory is

01:46:42

That even as late as 700 There were manuscripts that did not contain this as we have in Washingtonianus and that in that Scribes handling of Sinaiticus You have that alteration

01:47:00

But again, that doesn't explain the conjugation of p75 and B in not containing it

01:47:07

At this particular point and none of that explains W There's certainly there's nothing in Washingtonianus to even begin to substantiate the idea of an anti -jewish bias or an influence from Marcion none

01:47:19

None it's just it's just not there. These are assertions that in scholarship would require

01:47:25

Foundation, but you're you're not given a foundations in cartoons. I also wrote that the followers of Marcion also adduced an unspeakable number of apocryphal and Spurious writings which they which have nothing to do with New Testament manuscripts, which do not contain these spurious writings

01:47:42

We know what these spurious writings where we know what the Gnostic Gospels were and things like that I've read to you some of the Gnostic Gospels in our story time with uncle

01:47:49

Jimmy and You can tell that that there is a completely different Context and a completely different style to those things has nothing to do with what we have here

01:47:58

The selves have forged to be willed with the minds of foolish men and of such as are ignorant of the scriptures of truth

01:48:06

Are you such a man as this James? Being deceived by these apocryphal texts that cannot be shown to trace back to any official apostolic church

01:48:16

Now notice the conflation of the Gnostic writings with a textual variant witnessed by numerous different sources that do not show any influence of Gnosticism notice the conflation of the two in a

01:48:30

Attack upon me personally as being foolish or deceived so and so on again from a scholarly perspective laughable but this is what we have people putting out sadly within reformed circles and a large not a large number, but but Gaining an audience.

01:48:50

I don't know why it is But gaining an audience from some people anyways,

01:48:55

I guess the idea is well, you know looking for something new. I don't know But you see the conflation of completely unrelated things into a personal accusation

01:49:07

These are false things they're dishonest Refuted stand refuted now, but that's why we're doing this.

01:49:13

No, no never I leave you with these parting words

01:49:19

James as I need to be off Why when we appeal to the textual tradition of Luke 23 34 that has down in the ecclesiastical texts

01:49:29

Which was guarded by the successions of elders in the apostolic churches you which is exactly

01:49:35

Exactly Rome's claim for her oral tradition it's exactly her claim and Just as they cannot document the substance of that oral tradition

01:49:45

These people cannot document this claim of some type of apostolic control of the text of some later textual tradition

01:49:52

They can't do it. They can make the claim They can't do it. It's it's a false claim

01:49:57

Pose these textual traditions. Do you feel you are wiser than the elders of these churches?

01:50:04

Yep, there you go. Do you feel you're wiser than the elders of these churches that is a false conundrum Very common for people to use that it was used against the

01:50:11

Reformers Are you wiser and all the people have come before you Luther? Are you wiser and everybody can be? Very easy to use that kind of argumentation.

01:50:18

There are very few topics on which it is actual valid argumentation and I Would claim that for example when

01:50:27

Irenaeus teaches the recapitulation theory Not that I am wiser but that the

01:50:33

Reformers were wiser than Irenaeus and their understanding of the atonement. Yes. Yeah. Mm -hmm and But I don't think

01:50:40

Irenaeus Is even relevant to this. He's just a Person that's been put into this you cannot demonstrate again from a meaningful perspective going back to this time period manuscript wise

01:50:54

That in some way shape or form he's he's relevant to Establishing some kind of apostolic text or the

01:51:01

Corinth and Rome and all the rest of these well, he leaves Rome out Corinth the Greek Apostolic churches somehow are the repository of some type of a text that can be identified in the 2nd century

01:51:13

It's just fantasy. Are you answer sleep on it now off to bed?

01:51:18

repent James White You're wasting time

01:51:39

James White get up No, not again, I won't go with you you have no choice

01:51:46

I have to show you how your theory fails stop I don't have my coat

01:51:52

James run over with me to the apostolic churches in which the very thrones of the Apostles are still preeminent in their places in which their own authentic writings are read see we have the churches of Corinth Philippi Thessalonians Ephesus and Rome James Can't you see that the biblical scriptures that have come down through these historic churches to include other ancient witnesses all?

01:52:17

independently testify to Luke 23 34 as the original reading in their texts come

01:52:23

Take a look James. We have before us the historical ecclesiastical texts of the

01:52:29

Greek Orthodox The Latin Vulgate of Jerome the Syriac Pashita the

01:52:34

Harklian the Palestinian some of the Coptic Boharic the Slavonic the

01:52:40

Georgian to catch that they said some of the Coptic Boharic at least

01:52:46

What that means is they're responsible for their errors Because they recognize it's only some it's only partial and So they're only giving you a part of the evidence don't give you the other evidence

01:53:00

They don't want to weigh this evenly. This is not a matter of scholarship. This is this is what supports our perspective

01:53:06

We're going to ignore everything that goes against it and we are going to invest in our data and in our side

01:53:13

Some kind of special spiritual significance and we're gonna claim that goes back to the

01:53:18

Apostles and therefore make you an opponent of the Apostles We're not gonna bother documenting that we're just going to present this to you and you need to accept it because that's how all traditionalists are you accept our ultimate tradition and You you make that the lens through which you interpret everything else and that's

01:53:36

Rome's argument and evidently It's an Anglican argument at least on this subject from this fellow the

01:53:42

Armenian and the Ethiopian These texts were all publicly read and all basically witnessed to this passage in Luke 23 34

01:53:51

James Wouldn't this evidence be conclusive in any normal court of law?

01:53:56

but you don't understand Tertullian down through the ages the churches corrupted the text of the

01:54:02

New Testament and readings such as Luke 23 34 and others were Interpolated into the text over time.

01:54:10

Don't you get it Tertullian? We there were a few instances where especially what would be called

01:54:18

Dominical traditions such as the Pericope adultery could be described in that way, but the reality is that any honest balanced

01:54:31

Reading of modern scholarship even modern critical scholarship that wouldn't be described as believing critical scholarship

01:54:40

Recognizes that well, for example in CBGM you you sort of cut off Making Coherence relationships at a percentage around 85 %

01:54:57

Simply because all manuscripts have that level of similarity There's what

01:55:04

CBGM is documenting. Is it on one level the New Testament's the New Testament?

01:55:10

Even as Bart Ehrman has admitted We're playing with the particulars now The particulars are important to us because we believe that scripture is inspired

01:55:17

We believe that if God's given it to us, he wants us to have it And that's why we take these things very seriously and why our side doesn't make cartoons

01:55:26

About this kind of stuff We actually do entire programs where you you call people to a higher level to discuss the actual issues and things like that We don't you know turning into cartoons means you don't take it nearly as seriously.

01:55:38

You may be absolutely Devoted to it traditionally, but I don't think you're taking it nearly as seriously

01:55:47

So We we handle these things very very differently, but the reality is the

01:55:55

New Testament text is established and The idea there's a bunch of this going on.

01:56:02

This is this is just one of of a rather rather small number of Serious textual variants that have

01:56:12

Theological significance that must be analyzed in a

01:56:18

Honest fair fashion now, do I think my Muslim friends do it in honest fair fashion?

01:56:24

No, they're extremely biased Do I think they? Wanted one of the differences between myself and my my

01:56:31

Muslim friends Especially those who do textual criticism is I try to apply the same standard fairly both directions

01:56:39

I don't think they do that And in fact, I don't think their texts tell them to do that to be honest with you at least how they interpret their texts

01:56:49

But you know, these folks don't do that kind of interaction with Muslims, they're not gonna they're not gonna engage in that kind of thing

01:56:56

And if they do they're gonna find themselves I think in a in a in a world of hurt. So it's it's Trying to restore the text back to the original writings of the

01:57:06

Apostles James you seem to have forgotten that Marcion made the same accusation against the apostolic churches in the second century and This is the same accusation.

01:57:18

You are charging the apostolic churches off for Marcion argued in his Antithesis that the

01:57:24

Gospel of Luke that was current among the apostolic churches was interpolated by the defenders of Judaism Marcion also claims that he too was trying to restore the text to the original writings of Paul But Marcion was a

01:57:38

Gnostic we can tell by his theology that his text was incorrect

01:57:43

Who was fooled you into believing that the text of Scripture is determined by one's theology?

01:57:49

We get our theology. There's think about that one for a second I I think they could I think we could argue that these guys

01:57:56

Actually have that circular Reasoning going on text not the other way around James for in the case of Marcion each side claimed to possess the true gospel text of Luke and Presently James we find ourselves in the same situation

01:58:11

Now by the way, just just in case anyone's confused if you take p75 and You take the most traditional

01:58:20

Byzantine text of the Gospel Luke They have the exact same message which is not what

01:58:26

Marcion had You must understand that we're talking about alterations in Luke by Marcion.

01:58:31

You're talking about massive alterations. You are talking about Removal of of not a line but entire chapters.

01:58:39

Okay, you're talking about total rewrites here connecting a

01:58:45

What is probably a pre Marcionic text in p75? With Marcion's anti -jewish

01:58:54

Material here is a huge reach. It's a massive reach. It's being taken as a factual issue here

01:59:02

But it's all based upon the idea that these people can mind read what the scribe of p75 was actually

01:59:09

Intending or what their motivations were which doesn't explain why? The second scribe for Sinaiticus 700 years later would have a thing close that or why

01:59:18

Washingtonianus which was does not have any Does not seem to have any direct genealogical relationship to p75 were to be

01:59:28

Why why it would do that or why the others other translations? Why the various portions portions of the

01:59:35

Latin or the Syriac or the Coptic or Braharic? Would would have the same variant doesn't explain any of those things

01:59:41

Because this this kind of excision Would require some type of commonality that those all those different manuscripts would not share together

01:59:51

Though it's much easier to explain how a very popular phrase put upon the lips of Jesus on the cross

01:59:57

Notice they themselves gave evidence to this. How dare you speak against the last words of Jesus from the cross?

02:00:03

I see once it becomes established then Traditions like this you can use emotion

02:00:10

And it becomes something that can be very easily understood as to why it would be included rather than excised but see that requires you to approach it from a fair balanced perspective rather than cartoons in this passage in Luke 23 34

02:00:31

So who's rending of the text is correct and by what criteria do we solve for the original reading?

02:00:37

Tartaglian we have developed a reasoned eclectic approach to determine the original readings of the text look

02:00:44

I have the book right here in my back pocket Please tell me James.

02:00:49

How do you get reasoned eclecticism from solar script Torah? Hmm? How did

02:00:58

Erasmus get it oh he didn't necessarily believe in it because You mean the originator of the traditional text was a

02:01:06

Roman Catholic priest. Well, okay. How about Beza? You know this demonstrates a confusion as to the origination again, the difference between the sufficiency of scripture and then the utilization of the textual methodology that you're using and how you're examining manuscripts

02:01:27

This shows that you're coming from a primarily theological perspective and trying to put your theology on to the analysis of the text

02:01:34

Which is exactly what you were just saying a few moments ago. You can't do you can't derive your your Text from your theology, which is exactly what they're doing right now

02:01:42

But they don't see it because traditionalists can't see it's just it's the circularity of the King James only system Coming out here as well.

02:01:51

I Can't seem to find it. I Guess it's not in my handbook

02:01:57

Come see James. Yeah, that's exactly how I'd handle it again I'm gonna need to let more of this go because we're already well past the time.

02:02:05

I wanted to go on this. I apologize But that's obviously not how it respond to it

02:02:11

There is a confusion here. I believe in solo scriptura But nothing has been argued as to how my belief in solo scriptura is inconsistent

02:02:21

Withholding to the same view of textual criticism that the vast majority of people present solo scriptura in reformed seminaries

02:02:28

And every place else does today It is asserted. It's not it's not proven the art.

02:02:34

No argument is actually given. How do you say it's consistent? How do you say it's inconsistent? What's inconsistent about using reason to collecticism analyzing the manuscripts analyzing internal probabilities?

02:02:45

Even utilize utilization of CB GM, which is a part of reason to collecticism and CB GM is a tool

02:02:50

But there are editorial decisions that must be made even in the application of CB GM.

02:02:57

So it's a part of an expansion of reason to collecticism

02:03:02

How is that a violation of? soloscriptura, how is how was the methodology used by Erasmus or or by Augustine or by Jerome in Analyzing their texts quote -unquote consistent or inconsistent with soloscriptura.

02:03:16

It's thrown out there But it's not explained And hence should be rejected how our methods are not only historic but are also grounded in the sure warrants of Scripture For when

02:03:29

Irenaeus states that the tradition of the Apostles made clear in all the world Can be clearly seen in every church by those who wish to behold the truth

02:03:38

It takes on the same meaning as when Paul exhorts the Thessalonians to stand fast and hold the traditions

02:03:45

Which he have been taught whether by word or our epistle Now I need to stop here because I need to refute this.

02:03:52

This is a dangerous error, and I want everyone to call mr Sheffield on it.

02:03:57

This is a capitulation to Rome and Here's why first of all Irenaeus does talk about apostolic tradition and the first apostolic tradition

02:04:06

He mentions as Jesus is more than 50 years old when he dies, which we all reject and recognize was not an apostolic tradition

02:04:12

Secondly, that is a gross misapplication Second Thessalonians 2 15 which I have argued against in every single debate on soul scripture against Roman Catholics So this man's on the

02:04:21

Roman Catholic side of this issue Because what's in second Thessalonians 2 15 is about the gospel. It's not about some external tradition

02:04:29

It's not about a tradition about canons It's not about a tradition about the text of scriptures not about a text about the Byzantine text anything else.

02:04:34

It's the gospel that's what's being spoken of there so to connect the two is to connect gospel truth with error that Irenaeus held and Capitulate to Roman Catholicism.

02:04:45

That's why this that's why traditionalism when it when it becomes a part of Apologetics is extremely dangerous.

02:04:52

It's extremely dangerous and self -destructive Tradition Paul and Irenaeus speak of is the scriptures which were commonly received by the apostolic churches

02:05:02

And I've come down to us today This is why I appeal to Marcion in my fourth book to examine the textual

02:05:09

Tradition that was commonly received by the official churches of Paul naming the apostolic seas of Corinth Galatia Philippians Thessalonians and Ephesians Because the churches of God basically witnessed to the same text whereas Marcion's text that was shorter yet Not better was unknown for this is the faith as Jude states that was once received by the

02:05:34

Saints that we can see the danger of the Connecting things that have no connection now, you're connecting the very gospel with your textual tradition

02:05:43

See the danger of this this could be utilized to bring people right into Roman Catholicism Right out of meaningful orthodoxy right into error

02:05:53

See once you become imbalanced once you have your your tradition and your your your crusade you're on It always ends up causing problems for this is the method that ruled out

02:06:06

Marcion's shorter biblical edition And this is the same method that defines the canon and this same method validates

02:06:13

Luke 23 Edition and this is the same method that defines the canon and the same method that defines the canon

02:06:30

How so? How so what what what do you mean?

02:06:36

You you go to see here again once you start once you start

02:06:43

Creating an extra biblical tradition that is held by these churches now You're now you're making canonization based upon the process church.

02:06:51

This is an absolute repudiation of Any meaningful defense of reformed theology the man says he's a

02:06:58

Calvinist Well, you're on your way to Rome if you actually follow this the rest of the way May I suggest you?

02:07:04

Take a look at the works of dr. Michael Kruger on the subject of canonization and issues like that If you're actually gonna take this as far as you pretend you're taking it a method validates

02:07:16

Luke 2334 as the original reading and the gospel text. None of these things are true

02:07:22

He just he says all these could confirm this how have we been given a single?

02:07:29

Manuscript a single fact that we can hang a hang a hat on here No, we've just been that's what traditionalism believe what we say.

02:07:38

This all confirms what we said We've thrown so much stuff at you, but where's that? Where's the evidence?

02:07:43

Where are the facts haven't been given any facts Leave you with this James if you accept the canon of the

02:07:49

New Testament Which is validated by this method being attested by the independent apostolic churches

02:07:55

Why then do you reject this same method and these same churches in regards to the text of the canon?

02:08:01

Can you see your hypocrisy and how inconsistent you are? No connection made here whatsoever.

02:08:07

None I've done a lot of study on canon than a lot of study on New Testament actual criticism

02:08:13

What you just heard is pure blather Blather has no

02:08:20

Good luck making the connection In any meaningful fashion other than using cartoons and just repeating yourself documented historically

02:08:29

Show me Put let's talk about Muratorian fragments. Let's let's let's talk history here

02:08:35

Let's get something that comes from this time period rather than just a bunch of claims

02:08:43

You're calling me the heretic You're associating me with Marcian. You haven't given us a single meaningful fact yet that actually establishes the

02:08:54

Particularities of your claim nothing. Yeah, they're

02:09:19

I'm tearing stuff out of the Bible. They're just That me Lies are easy in cartoons,

02:09:29

I guess please please Spirit I don't want to see this, please.

02:09:36

Take me away David we must be honest about the corruptions in the

02:09:43

New Testament Father forgive them is a very intriguing the enemies of Christianity have a right to know

02:09:50

It's true whether I say it or not. They have a right to know they already know

02:09:57

Hello, it's simply a matter of whether we'll be honest or not You know whether you're gonna follow him who is the truth and be honest that's all it is

02:10:09

Good grief spirit. Why am I not providing the evidence for the other side?

02:10:15

It's my bias preventing me from seeing the truth Spirit, please.

02:10:21

Take me away Spirit why have you brought me here?

02:11:18

See that That Luke 23 34 is there the seat right up in the corner murdered by James White reason to collecticism.

02:11:29

So I I Simply you know, you know, I the funny thing is I pointed out when

02:11:35

Alan Kirschner and I and I I wonder I'm wonder I haven't talked to Alan about this. Yeah, I don't think

02:11:42

Because he's publishing on this at least that's what he's told me he's supposed to be publishing on this eventually I Did not break this news to anybody

02:11:54

I If you were to if you're to go to the big names in New Testament Textual criticism right now.

02:12:03

They would only know about me generally. He's just an apologist over there someplace Wasserman and and people like that.

02:12:11

They don't they don't care about what I say on this program or anything like that. I Is Because we have a global audience this program.

02:12:23

And so when we talk about these issues, I explain them to people who have a real interest but murdered by James White, so the fact that I point out the existence of the textual variant the fact that we have

02:12:44

Unrelated we have some related p75 Vaticanus unrelated Washingtonianus Bezekander Burgensis Manuscripts very early manuscripts that do not contain this text and that it raises the question

02:13:00

In light of the context of the second century church as to what's going on what the issues are

02:13:09

That means I've murdered it. This is not how you do scholarship Okay, this is how you

02:13:17

Garner disciples for yourself. This is how you push a perspective a position. This is not how you do scholarship it's not a

02:13:26

Scholarship will never take this seriously. It can't because this is there are no controls here you're not you're not applying the same standard to one side you're applying to the others and So, yeah, you know

02:13:38

I on one on one hand I'd like to go well, you know, thank you for thinking so highly of me Which you don't

02:13:45

But I had nothing to do with it. I just simply spoke the truth.

02:13:51

That's all it was done interpolation and there are many more Interpolations just like this passage in the

02:13:59

New Testament text. No, actually there there aren't that many others There, you know, we've talked about a number of texts, but they're all known that this

02:14:11

This is nothing new In fact, most of these things have been discussed literally for over a millennium

02:14:17

But but certainly since the time of the Reformation every single one of them has been has been discussed rather rather thoroughly

02:14:23

Maybe not as in -depth as we can now with papyri papyrological information and now with CBGM and stuff like that But but no

02:14:34

Spirit you agree with me Spirit, do you think we can restore st.

02:14:41

Luke to its original form? Spirit this is amazing.

02:14:53

You're handing me a second -century copy of st. Luke's gospel Wow, the text is shorter

02:15:01

I knew it Shorter and earlier are better I'm going to be the envy of my peers and finally everyone will have to listen to me

02:15:14

Members is not for the enemy rules that the church interpolated the New Testament scriptures

02:15:20

Spirit I can't thank you enough. Can I at least have your name so I can properly.

02:15:26

Thank you for all your help Marcian of Pontus this can't be

02:15:34

I'm nothing like you my methods are different I'm using a different approach

02:15:40

Spirit get me out of this nightmare Spirit let me out. I don't want to be here anymore

02:15:46

It was just a dream

02:15:57

None of it was real. I'm okay. Now. It was just a dream

02:16:03

When will James White actually wake up from the dream world that he is living in and deal with the historical evidence?

02:16:10

That clearly demonstrates that father forgive them is the original wording in st Luke's gospel, which was handed down in the texts of the

02:16:17

Greek Latin and Aramaic Apostolic churches. I guess we will never know Wow humbug

02:16:30

Forgive them So there you go so If you look at p75 that supposedly

02:16:41

Marcian's text that's I don't even know What language to use to describe how stupid that is?

02:16:50

It's the only language I can use. I'm sorry, but P75 is not

02:16:56

Marcian's text p75 teaches the truth about Jesus Christ and about the

02:17:03

Jews and To assert there is a consistent now there is one

02:17:10

Manuscript that has been accused of having an anti -jewish element to it and it would make some sense.

02:17:17

That's Bezet Canterbury Jancis But Bezet is long after p75 and long even after Marcian There is no basis from that accusation against either

02:17:30

Vaticanus or p75 so to associate that with Marcian It's just a lie. It's it's

02:17:40

Imbalanced dishonest as Is the alleged attack upon David Wood? So you have you know, so so let's try to put aside the clear imbalances almost cultic imbalances

02:17:51

In in what's been presented here? Hopefully in taking all of this apart

02:17:57

We've been able to see how Factual information can be abused even by Christians even by people who?

02:18:06

get especially by people who get caught up in a tradition and Are willing to do anything with the facts to support the tradition we've seen this for a long time with King James only ism now we're seeing it amongst people who claim to be reformed and It's no less disturbing when it's amongst those who claim to be reformed than those who those who do not so There you go.

02:18:33

We went well beyond the time frame almost two and a half hours. Oh my goodness. I apologize It's a mega jumbo jumbo mega.

02:18:40

I don't know what it is. It's very very long, but Again it was very very well done

02:18:49

Animation wise I had again I had people I could do better than that. Whatever. I don't care I've never seen anybody invest so much time and energy for something that was a slanderous pack of lies

02:19:04

It's it's sad to see it really is. So anyways, we hope mr Sheffield will turn his attentions and his skills to something meaningful and worthwhile in the future

02:19:12

He says he's going to but he hasn't so far As far as the videos that have been produced they've all been aimed at me and Dan Wallace and things like that and So we'll we'll see what happens in the future but Something tells me once you've got once these folks get the bit in their teeth

02:19:30

It's it's hard to dissuade them from continuing after that. So we will see what happens

02:19:36

Thanks for listening to the program today on wait a minute. Wait a minute on Thursday I'll give you the time because we haven't figured out the thing the the

02:19:46

Time thing dr. Nick Needham Author of the early church fathers edited by Nick Needham and of course two thousand years of Christ's power four or five volumes four volume series

02:19:57

On on church history will be joining us via Skype Lord willing He's he's not really the big techie guy.

02:20:05

And so he says it's all set up. We'll find out But we're gonna try to get together on Thursday But we need to figure out the time

02:20:14

Differences and when he's available and things like that between now and then we will let you know on Twitter and Facebook and things like that.