Barker Debate Review

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Reflections on the Barker Debate and the Value of Preparation

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line good to be back here in Phoenix, Arizona it really wasn't gone for a whole long time really, but Very very appreciative to everyone who participated in making the debate Thursday evening.

So successful. Especially those who were there who pitched in and gave of their time and their effort there people like well, I already put everybody on the on the website, but especially Eric Nielsen who had to receive the camera that we shipped back there and Dale and brigands and I'll go and all the guys that were there and assisted in getting the Recording done as you will see here in a few moments.

The recording sounds great and Lord willing later today. You should see something on the blog announcing the availability of the high-quality mp3 recording of the debate and then hopefully not too far beyond that we'll be able to put the DVDs together and What was the mp4 come before the DVD maybe or sound around the same time something like that?

Okay and since we did the recording in fact if you want to add something to your list of things to pray about I haven't been able to say much about this yet, but You may notice that the last about eight debates that I did other than the urban debate we've never made them available because we've never received them and I discovered this past week that that's because The folks who record them can't pay to get them from the videographers and so we may need to put up an item and maybe do it somewhere along the lines of Presales of them to try to raise some funds and make it more than normal.

You know, I don't know what we'll have to do, but we'll have to find some way of being of assistance to get. As I count them eight because I forgot about the the ones nine the ones from California. We've also never received either like with the debate with Farhan Qureshi, so I think there are nine videos of debates That are just sort of in limbo right now because the folks record them cannot pay to get them back from the videographer and so we're gonna have to do something to help out there because you don't do nine debates and let them just disappear because People don't have money to pay for them.

So we got a got to find some way of working that out. But anyway, we did the recording in this one. So we have the tapes and so they'll be available Tootsuite as they say and very high quality as you will see so thanks to all those folks and of course Great amount of thanks those who made it possible we We footed the bill for me on this one.

That is we paid for the hotel and the airport the airline tickets and the rental car and etc, etc. So you Contributed to making that happen and it was a real honor to meet a number of you who were there at the debate.

I heard a number of people say how come you don't come to the Midwest more often? Well, I come I go where I'm invited, you know. You know, I mean this whole debate just came about because and I don't remember.

Excuse me. Now what I? Don't know what caused me to go looking for the Barker Wilson debate. I don't remember what prompted that why I put that on my iPod and was listening to it. I don't I don't recall now, but I I did and it was after that that Eni Olson and channel said hey I just got I was just contacted.

Some students at the University of Illinois are looking for some of the debate Dan Barker. Anybody know anybody around here could do that and I remember saying I will. You will yeah, I think that'd be great.

So that's how that all ended up working out anyway, and So we are so thankful when folks help us to do those things. It's extremely Encouraging when folks stand with us and as a result of the evening was that was a great evening.

Obviously I continue looking forward to that grand day. When I will debate someone who comes from a liberal perspective and that person from the liberal perspective will have The attitude that says, you know.

Maybe I had to do some homework for this debate. Maybe I had to find out what James White actually believes. Maybe I'd like to read one of his books. Maybe just one not all of them, but just one maybe some it's relevant.

Maybe I don't listen to some of his debates. Maybe that he's done with other people. Do something other than just show up and repeat the exact same presentation. I've made over and over and over again.

Now don't get me wrong. I hope that I'm consistent in the presentations that I make and You're gonna hear similarities. I mean if I debated another atheist next year I would probably use many of the same elements of my presentation, but When you use the exact same notes When you're debating Kyle Butts, and I don't know what Kyle Butts his background is.

But I it sounded to me like he was at a Church of Christ. Okay, something along those lines. I could be wrong I haven't looked it up but very clearly Mr. Butts his presentation his perspective is very different than my own.

He's not reformed as far as I could tell him. So when you use the exact same notes the exact same text in the exact same order. For people who are coming from very different perspectives, what do you expect and In this particular debate, even if let's just say for the sake of argument that Dan and I are equivalent speakers with equivalent experience in debate and Dan does not even Google my name when I talked to him before the debate said oh you are the same James White.

So I hadn't even hadn't even looked me. I had no idea where I was coming from if I had published anything if what I'd taught anything like that. What did I do? Well, if you listen to the dividing line, you know over the past month and a half.

You've probably gotten sick and tired of Dan Barker, but I've played numerous debates. We've gone through his points point by point I've gotten his books I've let not only listen to his debates once probably more than once a number of them I know I listened to the Paul Minard and Doug Wilson debates at least three times each maybe more and.

And So if you've got two equivalent people one does their homework and one does not. What do you expect is going to be the outcome of that particular encounter? Well, I think that was the the outcome of that particular encounter and I Look at that.

See London truth just said Kyle Butts is with apologetics press a publishing arm the Church Christ. So he used the exact same argumentation with a Church of Christ Defender as he does with the Reformed Baptist.

Now maybe to Dan it just doesn't matter and and in fact Let me give you an insight from what you don't see on the video or here on the video. The navigators there at the University of Illinois took me out to lunch the day of the debate and I met with a group of them and and Did a lot of talking that's at least I did get to eat frequently when that happens, I don't get to eat and Because there are too many questions being asked but I did get to have some of that yummy Chicago style pizza at a rather famous pizzeria just down the road and so I was just going through what I expected debate to be about and I was telling them about Dan and In essence I Said well, you know, here's some of his favorite arguments.

He's got this list of contradictions. Here's some of the contradictions I talked about John the the John alleged contradiction. My testimony is not true. My testimony is true. I went through that they sort of laughed like people actually that's a contradiction.

I said, yeah, I bet you know He's said it many times. Well, okay, and Then I talked about his one I only believe in one less God than you do. And I said, you know what today is Thursday. I said I have a feeling that he will use his Thursday Illustration today, you know people used to worship the God Thor they heard thunder blah blah so I went all through all through this stuff with the with the students, so when Dan gets up for his opening presentation and Says well, you know today today.

It's Thursday and that's the God Thor and a lot of a lot of a lot and then he he goes through the the Christian the triune God does not exist because. And then he goes to the exact same Contradictions in the exact same order that we've dealt with him here on the program and that he did in the Kyle Butts debate I'm just looking out at the navigators who are sitting I don't know six rows back or so on the right-hand side and they're all just sitting there Smiling broadly because they're like wow it reminded me of the first time I debated Jerry Matitix on Long Island and Chris Arns and I who you know Chris and I just met for the first time and we're sitting at dinner and he says what do you expect this evening?

So I started going through and I started saying well You know Jerry likes to show up and he likes to talk about how those books are in boxes and he he's rushed to get here and and all he's done is had you know a coca-cola and in a cupcake or something and That all he had time to do is scribble some notes on a yellow pad while he was driving here and blah blah blah blah blah and I remember Chris looked at me like really no come on, you know and then I remember the expression on Chris's face when Jerry started his opening statement and it was like I'd written it for him and He knew from that point on that it was gonna get it was gonna be fine.

He was so nervous before that but he knew from that point I was gonna be fine because I had predicted exactly what Jerry Matitix would say in his opening statement and you know That doesn't make me right but it does demonstrate that I do my homework if I'm gonna be debating someone and I can do homework on them if they've published something recorded something I'm I I take the time to find these things out for some reason my opponents do not return that favor and That's their disadvantage, you know someday someone's actually gonna You know debate me and actually have read what I had to say and and that'll that'll be fine.

That'll be wonderful. But anyhow, I Thought the debate went very very well. I have queued up for me just to give you an idea of the quality of the sound I have queued up for me for me and for you the the closing statement that I made where I attempted to make some application and Again, I just I don't feel like my position was seriously Interacted with or or criticized by mr. Barker because he he just Again I'm sorry, but a one-size-fits-all presentation of atheism naturalistic materialism Versus a presuppositional approach that also in this instance presented evidence.

Not as a neutral fact and I blogged about this yesterday. Not as a neutral fact from which we derive the existence of God. But as an evidence of mr. Barker's inability to deal with the reality around him because of his Dogmatic assertion of materialism I had presented evidence from from design and As I expected mr. Barker's responses were insufficient to deal with the realities of the facts that the facts of science point us beyond the natural realm and as long as you just sit there and say I nothing outside the materialistic realm exists and I'm not going to even even consider these things.

Well, you can see the circularity into which that kind of denial forces the naturalistic materialist, so here's. And before I play this I did want to mention one other thing is I'm probably forget it because I've got a million things Going through my mind.

I've got a I've got my Kindle over here. I wanted to read just something I wanted to talk about some other issues. I want to get to here so a bunch of stuff flying through flying through the mind this morning, but As I was heading out to Illinois, I think it's as I got there another illustration here of just how thankful I am to just be one little small part of the body of Christ across the world and I have mentioned before and I don't want to embarrass my brother, but There are there are just people in this world that you just You just get along you just there's a connection.

You know, I was talking to a visitor at church on Sunday and I was talking to him about the ministry and he's followed the ministry for about six years and He's very thankful for it and things like that.

He was just visiting because he's doing some work in Phoenix. And so we had a nice a nice visit and I was talking about well I said, you know, I pointed over and and brother Rich was holding forth About what five ten feet away from me.

You all were talking about something politics as I recall I forget what it was about but rich was holding forth to a group of about four or five folks and. So I pointed over to Rich I said, well, you've got the entire staff the ministry ten feet of each other.

And I could tell he was a little bit surprised at how small the church is. I people I think come and expect some big megachurch and reform Baptist churches do not fit into the megachurch mold very well.

They did just not don't fit their room. Anyway, and I was discussing I was talking about how I was just so thankful that I There are people that you know, you just get along with you have harmony with.

I had talked about pastor Frye and how. Interestingly enough Pastor Frye and I said a lot of the exact same thing Sunday morning, but we never talked about it. It just so happened in the synoptic study that we were in Luke chapter 12 About to contentment and so I had sort of just done a little mini sermonette basically without much in the way of preparation on it about Contentment and covetousness and so on and so forth Sunday school and then pastor Frye was is in the Sermon on the Mount and he was in the same section.

And About how the Lord will take care of us and worry can't add to our stature and things like that. And we ended up saying almost the exact same things. But we had no communication beforehand about that has happened many many times and that's a great blessing to me.

And then I said, you know, look at rich here and I were like an old married couple, you know. We just he does his thing. I do my thing. We know exactly what our jobs are. There's no egos involved and all the rest of stuff and we've been doing that for 20 years and I couldn't do what I do without him and it's just it's just how it works and The same thing is true about my brother Roger Brazier in London.

Roger and I don't get to talk as much as we probably I think I certainly would enjoy doing. That's probably because he's in London and there's a eight-hour difference between us now and so. He had sent me an email I think right as I got to the University of Illinois says I'm sure you've got everything ready to go and say that but I I thought you might find this interesting.

He sent me a PDF of a portion of a book called why us by James Lafayette. And I hadn't seen the book it's a brand new book and I read the PDFs and I was just blown away because Lafayette is not some fundamentalist Christianism.

I don't even get the feeling he's a Christian at all. But in essence what he's expressing is that naturalistic materialism is getting beaten about the head and shoulders by the The scientific advances are taking place in our day specifically focus upon The genome the human genome studies.

Well, actually not just the human genome studies, but the genome studies of you know, the fly and various other animals that have been done the mapping of the the genome of these living creatures and the year of the brain the the explosion of neuroscience study that actually I Have been more in introduced to that.

Because the guests I had on a week before last that was visiting Jamin Huebner graduate of Dort has really gotten into studying that particular area and so he's also one of our channel regulars and has Talked about that a good bit in channel and so on so forth and via other means I have been aware of his study of that particular field anyway.

That's what the book's about. And so I actually was So taken by what I read that and this is another thing to be thankful for. I have an Amazon Kindle to Kindle 2 and So I found out that it's available in that format and voila boom got it in an amazing today.

The technology that we have that I purchased I think three books In one day on my Kindle that I was using for finishing up my presentation for the University of Illinois debate and I'm gonna read some sections from that and you'll hear that in the debate as well when you get it, but it was just So encouraging to me that my brother Roger in in London.

When I first went there within five minutes it felt like we had known each other all of our lives and we just had that connection as as Christians and We think along the same lines and for some reason he will not take credit for my English accent I that's the one thing I don't understand.

I just I've Tried to model it off of him and for some reason he just recoils from that. But other than that we get along really well and obviously think along the same lines. And so I ended up incorporating a whole section into my opening presentation From that book once I had on my Kindle and I could decode it directly.

And I think when I read some that section you'll you'll see that but again just another one of those Very encouraging things the the group of people that met me after the debate. Some of whom have helped in in getting me those resources that I can use very very encouraging all all the way around the line, so It's it's it's great to to see the Lord working in that way.

Let me go ahead and play this this section here. So you can see some of the quality that we were able to get again, thanks to Enielson and Brigand and Dale and and I'll go and everybody making sure that We had the right Sound equipment connected to the camera and all the rest that stuff.

Here's after I gave Dan. I gave Dan a couple of gifts. I gave him the ermine DVD and I gave him a chess book which he said he already had so he could give to a friend of his but again, just demonstrating I knew I Read his book, and I know what he's interested in and was just trying to demonstrate some kind of I know Calvinists aren't supposed to do this but human compassion and nice and Bring those resources for him.

Then after doing that we picked up with the closing statement, which was this the New Testament presents to us a absolutely unique message. All of the pagan religions had no concept of what the New Testament says to us.

That's why it was such an amazing and startling message in its context. As a monotheistic religion Christianity teaches that there is one God who is timeless Who by the exercise of his will created all things time space and matter?

But he is not subject to these things. He is not connected to these things in the sense that he is dependent upon them that monotheistic God for his purposes. Chose to glorify himself in a triune fashion dance that I didn't connect the dots for you.

Well, I made it as part of my opening presentation. He never challenged any of it. Specifically the fact that God is triune Demonstrates that the personal relationships of Father Son and Spirit have always been there.

God has always been love. He did not become love in creation. He was the creation was not necessary to him without the Trinity. You have all sorts of issues regarding necessity in the being of God but as I pointed out the Bible reveals this about God and It reveals to us that the Trinity as a whole chose to bring about the drama of redemption.

It was not the father who became incarnate. It was the son. It's not this the son who dwells in the people today. It's the son by the Spirit that does so these are biblical teachings. The New Testament is very clear on and it is absolutely amazing what the Christian is actually saying.

Yes, we are saying That the one who create all things who literally holds all things together. Became a carpenter in Galilee amazing stupid foolish. It's exactly what the New Testament says those who are perishing believe.

It's foolishness. It's foolish. It's a scandal to the Jew who is seeking after signs. It's a scandal the Gentile who is seeking after wisdom. But God has chosen the foolishness of the message that is preached to be the means by which he saves those who believe now.

When I look at creation around me and I was a science major I was a double major in college Bible and biology as department fellow in anatomy and physiology as a senior I raised over 35 ,000 Drosophila Melanogaster fruit flies.

Anybody raised fruit flies in here. Are they still as there's a fly nap still stink as bad as it used to does? Okay. All right I studied genetics and I was fascinated by it and When I look at what happens in our bodies when I look at the complexity I am NOT sitting here going.

Oh. That complexity must mean God is there. I'm not talking about trying to fill God into the gaps. I Am recognizing that the complexity that is there is not a snowflake complexity. It is not a crystal complexity.

It is the same complexity that is containing in the hard drive of that MacBook Pro over there the keynote Presentation that I made at the beginning of this presentation and if I fire keynote up again, guess what it's going to give the same presentation the data has order it contains information and it's repetitive and That's what we see in the design around us.

You know who really introduced me to intelligent design was Dawkins. You see I graduated in 1985. Completed my major in biology and then I read the blind watchmaker. Now. I had gone to a Christian school, but I was the only non Evolutionist in the biology department.

So I had fought this battle for a long time. I've read the best evolution has to offer and I read the blind watchmaker and it was in reading that that I came to the realization that single-step Micromutation cannot create Complex systems, it just can't do it because every single mutation has to give some type of reproductive Help to the being in which it's contained and you can't do that when the most minimal system will require 10 15 20 steps, by the way, the word I was searching for there was advantage.

It just That's what caused I had never even heard of the term intelligent design never even read anything about it. It was reading the blind watchmaker that forced me to recognize that now Dan Barker's a very bright man.

You still remember the Prometheus Society? 99 .997 is that the is that what it has to be? They haven't kicked you out yet. Okay, 99 IQ of in the 99 .997th percentile that makes Dan a very intelligent man.

No one's questioning that this evening I I questioned his exegesis and I can give good grounds of that but that's a different issue. How can he and I look at the same data and come to such different conclusions.

He would say well, it's because you're religious and I say to Dan. Oh, so are you? My you have demonstrated that this evening. There is such a strong commitment on his part. He said I was once a fundamentalist.

I think Dan still is he's just switched gods he has Fundamentalistically clung to his naturalistic materialism and anything that would point beyond the borders of that materialism must be denied and I simply say to you who has borrowed whose worldview this evening Why should Dan as Doug Wilson put it complain that God's pro-choice and Psalm 137?

If that's what he was complaining about if that's what God is. Why should he raise those issues? Why does he tell us this evening? That there is no Transcendent meaning and purpose to life. You know what my hope this evening is.

Very quickly. I met with a young man a number of years ago to University Hill here in Illinois up to the north. We had a long conversation about his atheism and when he left I said to him, you know I think you're gonna take that jacket with you when you leave he had denied whether that jacket really existed or not.

I think you're gonna take that jacket with you leave because it's cold outside. I think you're gonna drive down the right-hand side of the road and I think you're gonna live a life where you're going to every single day have to borrow from my worldview to make yours work and Dan Barker is a brilliant man, and I'm gonna hold him to sending me one of your CDs I want I want to hear your piano playing because I'm sure it's beautiful but my hope and prayer is that when Dan Barker sits down to the keyboard and He produces that which is objectively and transcendentally beautiful He's going to realize that he's doing it.

That he's not going to cheapen it by saying. Oh, well, this is only beautiful because the certain Reactions in my brain that that beauty is real beauty. Meaning is real meaning. Purpose is real purpose and after you and I are gone Those things will still be true valid beautiful and right.

I submit to you that no society will last long. It doesn't believe those things and no person will ever find true fulfillment until they know those things. Thank you very much for being here this evening.

And I should note that as I checked out of the Union Hotel the next morning to come home. There at the front desk was Dan Barker's CD, which he had left for me as he had promised to do and If you were listening to the pre feed before the program, that's what you were listening to was Dan Barker and yes, he's very good as I expected him to be and That story that I told about the young man that was from Bradley University I've told that story on the dividing line before I think I talked about when I got back Was a young atheist with whom I had a lengthy conversation and and once again, I I with him demonstrated The nature of the presuppositional commitments He was making and how he would not live in accord with them.

That he could not live in accord with him and it bothered him to no end and I hope it continues to bother him to this day unless the Lord's had mercy upon his soul and has drawn him to his son since then and so there was the the end of of the debate and I again, very thankful for everyone who made it possible for us to do that as I haven't heard anything from these folks for a couple days, but There is a Real probability possibility anyways that I'll be debating Dan again in September and what I have suggested to the the folks who are doing putting the material together the conference together.

And to Dan at this debate was that we go through his list that list that he has put in print I put it in multiple debates. He's put it in print. Let's go through that list. Let's give him a certain amount of time to present the alleged contradictions.

Give me more time to respond because obviously on any rational level It takes more time to respond to an accusation of error than it does to make an accusation of error. But let him present his best shots and I'll respond to them that's what I would like to see done because He said actually he did that with somebody once.

I've never heard it. I've not heard that particular debate. He said it took three days or something like that, but I would Obviously from my perspective I have never heard Dan Barker present a meaningful alleged contradiction.

I just haven't He you have to use a very simplistic surface level form of Eisegesis to make his alleged contradictions work. And I don't believe they do and I would be willing to demonstrate that so we'll see if that if that comes up Got more to say good to get to the Le Fanu book here after we take our break.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We're right back.

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Meeting Father Zachariah Botros and the Challenge of Islam

And welcome back to the dividing line before we get back to the fun new and a few things like that just real quickly. I had a quite a privilege of Saturday evening Saturday evening to Meet and listen to speak father.

Zechariah buttress now some of you know who he is. Some of you do not if you get world magazine you saw that he was the 2008 Daniel of the year. He is basically known as father. Zechariah in the Arabic speaking world.

He is one of the most Recognized faces and names in Middle Eastern countries. He has a television program on the life satellite channel and He certainly has the largest Muslim audience of anybody in the world.

Why. Because as a Christian he knows the Quran and the Hadith like the back of his hand and he speaks in Arabic and He drives the Muslims crazy. I Understand there is I Think the world magazine article set as high as a 60 million dollar bounty on his head provided by al-qaeda mainly Saudi oil money and Even though al-qaeda and Saudi don't seem to go together, but things are always mixed up over there.

They can all get together in their detestation of Zechariah buttress. He is an elderly Coptic priest and Because of the bounty on his head there has to be a great Care taken in where he goes and where he speaks in the security.

We had to have tickets to this event. There wasn't a bunch of discussion of it beforehand and I was very thankful that when I got there most of the people who were putting on the program knew who I was.

That always surprises me. They were aware of what we've been doing in regards to Islam. That was very exciting and I had brought a few things to give to him or at least have given to him. I didn't know how things were working that evening the entire evening was in Arabic and I didn't pick up one of the little translation thingies.

I just used it as an opportunity to practice. So I had mentioned that I had the two books. I had my book on the trinity and but my book on justification. I had the ermine debate and one of the Shabir Ali debates on DVD and so while the singing was going on and I was Transfixed on the digital projection because I was trying to read the Arabic.

And what wasn't doing half a bad job? I didn't know what half the words meant. But some people were singing. I was able to go. Okay there. There's that you know, and so I'm just following on I'm just doing lots of Arabic practice is what I'm doing and While that was happening One of the leaders came up and said you have your books the things you have with you.

Yeah, grab them and they took me back alone into a into a back room where I had a few moments to talk with the father Zechariah and I gave him the materials explained what they were and I was Again rather surprised that he had any idea who in the world I was maybe they just told him.

But I didn't get that feeling. I thought he actually had heard of what we were doing and he specifically said we need many more people in the West who are Doing what you're doing exposing Islam? And in debating these issues and providing the the kind of debates and so on so forth.