Radio Debate: James White vs. Dan Barker

I have a couple of guests with me here in the studio who are going to, for the next hour or two, going to go into the subject of fundamentalism, and we're going to find out a little bit about what fundamentalism is, specifically, it's a word that's thrown around a lot, we'll get the specific definition today, and find out just what it is doing for or to America, depending on your point of view.

With us here in the studio is Jim White, the president of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Jim's been with us many times before.

Jim, thanks for being here. It's good to be here again. And Dan Barker, who is with the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

And Dan, as I understand, you used to be a minister, is that correct? That's right. What kind of a minister?

I was ordained at an independent fundamentalist church in California. I was charismatic and Bible -preaching and evangelist, missionary, pastor of three churches.

I pastored a Quaker church, and I co -pastored an Assembly of God church, and then an independent church.

And being that you are with the Freedom From Religion Foundation, I would assume that you are no longer a minister? I've had quite a change, yes, that's right.

You are an atheist, I understand. Well, I guess atheists can have a status of minister. I suppose anyone who talks about atheism can be ministering the good news, a free thought.

Aha, okay. Fundamentalism. I want to get a definition, well, from you,

Jim, and Dan, if you disagree, you can jump right in. What is fundamentalism, Jim? Well, that's a very interesting question, because fundamentalism has taken on meanings over the past few decades that it never had when it was in its infancy, shall we say.

You've got to determine whether you're talking about fundamentalism as a political force, as this whole movement.

Fundamentalism, to me, in its strictest definition, goes back to what happened at the turn of the century when liberalism came into some of the main seminaries in America, specifically

Princeton, and there was a reaction against that liberal thinking. And the liberals denied the things that what the people who became known as fundamentalists believed, such as the authority of the

Word of God, the deity of Christ, virgin birth, salvation, the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

And so since they pushed for the fundamentals, they became known as fundamentalists. And this position is the strictest definition of fundamentalism, dealing with a person who accepts the fundamentals of the

Christian religion as true. Unfortunately, especially recently, fundamentalism has become somewhat different than that, a much wider definition.

I was reading some of the material from Mr. Barker's organization, and fundamentalism in there is using a very wide, wide terminology.

Anyone who basically would stand for a Christian position, no matter what else, is grouped within fundamentalism.

And so one must define their terms a little more closely than they are being defined by the media today. I don't know if that answers your complete question, but to me, fundamentalism in its strictest sense is a theological position, but it has effects, outgrowths in the political spectrum, in social ideas, because if you get a bunch of people together who accept certain creeds or positions as being true, that's going to affect them as a political group, as a social group, and many other aspects.

Dan, don't you think it's true of all fundamentalists, though, that the authority of the Bible is a common denominator?

The authority of the Bible, above every other authority, it is absolute truth. Yes. I would say that's definitely one of the fundamentals that was, quote -unquote, attacked by liberalism at that point, and was the basis for the entire reaction against that liberalism, would be the acceptance of the

Bible as God's word and as the final authority. And that is what has given it its distinctiveness over the years.

All right, let's get down to why we are doing this program today, or where we came up with this idea in the first place.

We have somebody named Pat Robertson running for president. This fellow is a minister.

He does a television program called The 700 Club, which, every time I've tuned in, seems to be asking for money.

Doesn't seem to be doing much else other than that. But the troubling thing about Pat Robertson is not what he does for a living generally.

It is what he would propose to do as president of the United States. He would like to run this country according to the word of God.

As interpreted by Pat Robertson. As interpreted by Pat Robertson would be, I think, fair. Jim, how do you feel about that?

Well, again, they're dealing with the political spectrum idea.

I don't think that it is right to say that because a person holds any religious viewpoint that they are automatically disenfranchised because of that.

And so I know, for example, some of the local people here that are involved in the political scene, in the

House, so on and so forth, who are Christians. They feel that that is what they should do. I personally feel that some people have possibly taken it too far in that they feel that if you're a

Christian and you are not every other day somehow taking part in a political activity, that you're somehow betraying your trust as a

Christian. I certainly wouldn't take that position at all. And in fact, Dan and I were talking before,

I'm probably a little more moderate than some of the extremes on that end. And the interesting thing is the extremes are normally what you end up hearing about.

You rarely hear about the middle -of -the -road people. The extremes are what you end up hearing about. Well, the extremes are more dangerous in most cases.

But they're also not exactly reflective of the actual belief system and beliefs of the people involved.

That's true, but most damage is done by the fanatics on the fringe. And as far as Pat Robertson goes,

Madeleine Murray O 'Hara can run for president if she wants to, and obviously she'd get real press coverage, but she wouldn't get the coverage that Pat Robertson is getting.

She wouldn't get elected. No, she probably wouldn't. And I personally doubt

Pat Robertson's chances of that either, especially due to the fact that there are a number of people who are throwing their hat in the ring that are, quote -unquote, acceptable to the political position that would be characteristic of fundamentalists.

Is it possible to be a person like a Pat Robertson, not necessarily the

Pat Robertson, but is it possible to be a minister and run for office and not have a point of view that you're going to ram your views down the throats of everybody else?

Well, I think A, yes it is, and B, I think something needs to be mentioned here, and I'm glad that Mr.

Barker brought it up before I did, and that is each person that is involved in anything has a particular viewpoint.

He mentioned that he might be called the minister of the good news and free thought. I have here the newsletter we're going to be sending out next week that has an article in it called,

Atheism is a Religion, because atheism makes a statement concerning the ultimate being. There is none, basically.

And you do not automatically disenfranchise a person because they're an atheist, just simply because they don't happen to believe that there's a god, even though that is, in a certain definition, a religious statement of their own.

And so they're going to have certain viewpoints that I, as a theist, I'm not going to agree with, and would rather see someone who has a different viewpoint in that position, but everyone has a viewpoint.

You have a viewpoint. I listen to you quite often. I've tried very many times to break that habit, but I listen to you quite often.

And especially when I'm feeling, you know, especially good that day and I need to get down a little bit more, I give you...

Thank you. You're very welcome. I give you a lesson, and I know that you have a specific position that colors any comments that you're going to make.

Now, that does not mean that you are going to shove your position down someone's throat. But you do have a position.

And why a certain... I wouldn't run for office, though. And the reason I wouldn't run for office...

Well, there are many reasons. One reason being that an honest person could never win. But the main reason is because...

I mean, let's face facts. I have very strong points of view, and I don't know that I could be very tolerant of the point of view of the majority of the people many times.

And I do believe a politician does have to be sensitive to what his constituents want. And I don't believe you could be a good politician and not be sensitive to the masses.

Can I say... I think this is a little beside the point. No one is denying people like Pat Robertson the freedom to run for office, or anyone with any particular view, or Ronald Reagan to say a prayer privately, or even say a prayer in a public ceremony.

What our organization is stating is that people who hold fundamentalist and extreme religious views, they are a danger to society in that they want to bring us backwards.

They're anti -progressive. They want to go back 2 ,000 years in thought. Where the liberals in this country, the people who are progressive, want the human mind to advance.

We want society to go forward. We feel, many of us feel, that religion is a stagnation of the human mind.

And anyone who's in a progressive society, anyone like Robertson or Reagan, who thinks that there's an authority higher than the human mind, like the

Bible, is a dangerous person. We see that in Iran right now. And it's not that we're denying him the right to have his views, or even to get elected.

If he did, Ronald Reagan got elected, and we moved the country quite a bit to the right. That's fine. That's America.

That's beautiful. That's our system. But we feel it's time to champion liberal thought, progressive thought, and that fundamentalism in our government is dangerous.

For the main reason that the Bible is held to be the ultimate authority. And this country, being a pluralistic country, is a country of diversity.

There are Hindus, there are Zoroastrians, there are Christians, there are atheists. And we feel that no one small group has the right to impose its morality on the rest of the country by dogmatic means.

And most fundamentalists, I don't know about Jim, but most fundamentalists think that the world should be a theocracy.

It should be run by God, that the principles of the Bible, the principles that Jesus spoke and that God speaks, are those principles that this country should be run by.

And we disagree. We think that's a step backwards. That's the real point. Well, I would respond by saying that I certainly do not think that fundamentalism is a step backwards.

I think the progressive thought that the atheistic societies would engender and would push for is not progressive at all.

It has been around for thousands of years and has led to the downfall of many a civilization.

For example? Well, for example, everyone always brings up the example of the

Roman Empire and the moral decay that ate at it from the inside and the outside. After Christianity came out.

Well, when you say Christianity, you must define what you're talking about. You're talking about institutionalized religion or you're talking about Christianity that's based upon the scriptures.

Well, Christianity, historical, cultural Christianity. Well, see, there you're dealing with a system rather than with the belief itself.

But it is Christianity. It's based on the Bible. It's a theocracy of God. I would definitely disagree with you.

It was not Hindu. It was not Islam. It was not Buddhism. Allow me to finish my point. The point is that very soon, about four or five hundred years after Christ, you have the production of a religious system that, since you said you came from a fundamentalist background and would know this, is not in any way the same faith as a fundamentalist would discuss today.

And many fundamentalists would not even identify it as being the same. But it was Christianity. Culturally, it was

Christianity. If you want to identify that as such, you may. Yes, it was. But I would not identify it as the Christianity which is based upon the scriptures.

On your particular Christianity. Well, let me give you an example. One of the common objections made, common things brought up by atheists and others, and it's happened many times here on the air, is that Christianity is, in some way, a form of slavery for women.

And they will point to this side of the other thing. I recall Ben Ackerley, the author of the

X -Ray Bible, of course, brought up a number of quotes concerning that subject when I spoke with him here on the station.

But the point of the fact is that ignores what we're actually talking about.

Mr. Barker is exactly right. We are talking about the Bible when we talk about fundamentalism, when we talk about Christianity.

And that really ignores the scriptural teaching concerning it. And someone who would say that, for some reason,

Jesus Christ enslaved women, or something like that, or that Christianity is somehow a slam against women, is either very ignorant of the facts or is willfully changing the facts.

We're going to take a break here. Dan, we left off with you. Jim, you said that atheism was a religion. And that could be a true statement if religion is defined as a group that binds people culturally or perhaps philosophically.

If you define religion, as most people do in a popular way, as having some belief in a supernatural realm, then, of course, atheists are not religious.

The members of the Freedom from Religion Foundation in Madison, Wisconsin, are sort of an umbrella group for people who call themselves agnostics, atheists, humanists, secularists, rationalists.

And I would not say that we are a religious group, although we have taken a position on a religious question.

But it is not true to say that atheists are religious. We do not worship some transcendent being or outside of ourselves.

If you want to call respect for the human mind worship, then yes, depending on how you define the word.

I would accept atheism as religious in a very, very narrow sense of the word. Well, the way

I meant it was the fact that atheism does indeed have a supreme power, and that is you yourself and yourself.

Well, that's not true, Jim. It's not supreme. It's very limited. Well, supreme in... I'm not talking about supreme over the universe.

I'm talking about supreme over yourself. And in that realm, atheism is just as much a viewpoint that makes claims concerning the religious issues as any other viewpoint.

That's not necessarily true. Atheism doesn't make a statement. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in God.

Some atheists might believe in astrology. Some atheists might believe in ESP. But atheism does not make a positive statement.

We merely say that we are justified in not holding a belief in God. I don't think that that is a consistent position.

Even the Supreme Court has ruled that humanism can be defined as a religious statement or a religious viewpoint.

For legal purposes, yeah. Well, certainly. And so you do make statements, whether they be negative or positive, it's still a statement.

Confusing my having a positive statement concerning the existence of deity, and your saying a negative statement, there is no existence of deity.

I don't say that. We could change it around. But I don't say that. What do you say? I do not say there is no God. I say that I do not have a belief in God.

There might be a God. I can't prove that there's not. And I would like for you to perhaps try to prove that there is.

And if you do, I will accept your proof. I'm not saying that God does not exist. I'm just saying that I, as a human being, am without grounds for belief and am justified in being atheistic, not a theist.

Well, you came out of a theistic position. Why did you come out of a theistic position? Because there is no evidence for the existence of a

God. None at all? None at all. There is no evidence at all. You can sit here and you can utilize speech, and you can look at me with one of the most complicated instruments that we know of called the human eye, and you can look at the history.

You say you were in a fundamentalist church. You can look at the history of the scriptures and the history of the nation of Israel and things like that and say there's not so much as one bit of evidence.

You can look at prophecy, you can look at all those things, and there's not one bit of evidence. Those things, the scripture and prophecy, are evidence of religion.

No one doubts that there is such a thing as a religious experience. I wasn't saying that. And I believe that religion is a very powerful, very motivating, and to many people a very practical thing.

I don't doubt that it exists. And I know for a fact that the religious experience exists in the human mind. It's very powerful.

And the idea of the human eye being evidence for God, the human eye is evidence for nature, but if you're saying the human eye is evidence of a transcendent being that exists somewhere, how do you make that connection?

Well, it's rather logical actually when you look at anything. If you look at this control board we're sitting behind here, it is an obvious thing for a human being to realize that someone created that control board.

There was not an explosion in a parts factory, and when they walked in there, lo and behold, they found this control board sitting there which just sort of fell together out of random parts.

You've undoubtedly dealt with the theistic argument concerning the existence of God in relationship to cause and effect.

The cosmological. And the idea that a man can look at nature, can look at the creation around him, and ignore the fact that there is something more involved there than just simply random chance is amazing to me.

And it's been amazing to some of the greatest thinkers down through the entire ages. Atheism is not new, that's true.

But the idea that you can deny the existence of order behind what we see around us.

Well, no, we don't deny that. But you would identify that order as an impersonal, just simply eternally existing universe?

There are about 12 or 13 standard arguments for the existence of God. And atheists, for the last two or three hundred years, have been analyzing and categorizing.

You mentioned Paley's argument, the argument from design. You find a watch, it had to have a designer. The engineer behind this board might disagree with you that such is an amazing machine.

Maybe sometimes it hiccups, but you don't deny that some human being put some effort into that. I don't think anyone would believe it just fell together by random chance.

Atheists, those that I know, are usually naturalists. So when we do try to make positive statements about the world, we make a statement in such a way that nature is the cause.

We don't have to take a further step into mystery to say that the cause was some being. There are laws of nature.

There are certain ways that atoms can combine. There's a lot of randomness in the world. There's a lot of cruelty. We see that life is not such a beautiful thing all the time.

But we do see design in the universe. But it's not necessarily intelligent design. The design of sand dunes.

The design of the way a snowdrop forms. These are designs that are not necessarily intelligent design.

If they are intelligent design, point to the designer. Okay. So naturalism, from your viewpoint then, would you say that nature, what you're attributing this design to, where did nature come from?

Well, first of all, design is a human word. It's a word of ordering. You might see design in something and I may not.

You might see a pattern and say there's a design. Would you see design in a human being? I would see design by nature, by natural selection in a human being.

And where did that come from then? Well, I was just explaining the forces of nature, the laws of science.

They've always been? Well, we assume that uniformitarianism, we assume that they have always been eternal.

We don't know. We can't go back and see. But what I'm trying to say is that since the theist sees a human eye and says, my goodness, how beautiful, how complex, there must have been a designer, does not mean that that designer was intelligent.

For example, suppose, isn't it also true that the mind of God is beautiful and complex and wonderful?

Is that not true? Well, then your argument would require that he also had a designer. No, that is not true.

The theist does not say, when a theist says that God is uncaused, he says that he was eternal.

He does not say, the theist does not say when, in reference to the world and things like that, that the world and nature and things like that are eternal.

When you talk about the mind of God, you're using a human word to describe something that you and I know about.

We have a mind. But since God is completely and totally unique, that analogy fails in applying it to a being who is completely and totally unique, as our language normally does when discussing

God. The point is this, though. Really, there's not all that much of a difference if you are going to say that nature, naturalism, natural laws of nature, uniformitarianism created what we have today, whether intelligent or non -intelligent.

I wouldn't say created. Brought about, formed, whatever English word you'd like to use.

Basically, you are applying the cause to nature and making nature something that, since you would not say we don't know what was before that, is the eternal cause.

You are, in effect, arguing for a theistic viewpoint by making nature, the creator, impersonal as it may be if you look at it that way.

But that is still a theistic argument. I don't think so. To be a theist, you have to have a belief in a supreme being.

Nature in the universe is not a supreme transcendent being. No, we're first starting with cause.

We're first starting with the existence of a cause for what we see around us. Every effect must have a cause.

Exactly, except for God, you mean. He is not an effect. So you do admit that it's possible for there to be an effect which is not caused.

Certainly. Wait, wait, wait. An effect that is not caused, God is not an effect. Well, then you admit it is possible for something to be uncaused.

And what we naturalists say is that the nature is uncaused. Exactly. We agree with you. That's not a theistic position.

And so at that point, you are in effect admitting that there is an eternal, non -ending cause for everything we see here.

It is from that point that the theist then moves into demonstrating the personality of that being. Okay, but that's not theism.

Naturalism is not theism. You have taken a step further and tried to then attribute some kind of a cause for the universe.

No, what I'm saying is that theism must start with the first cause. That is not the complete argument.

Well, there is a first cause, you said. I'm just saying that theism must start with what is this around us?

Is there a reason for what is around us? And it is from there that you go to discuss the personality.

I am not attempting to attribute personality to nature. What I'm saying is you admit there has to be some reason for what is here.

Whether you call it intelligent or not is irrelevant. Well, you're talking about metaphysics then. We both have a metaphysics.

Both of us, since you asked to deal with that, yes. All right, we're going to take a break here, and let's go right to the phones.

Jason's a first -time caller from Tempe. Hi, Jason. Good afternoon, thank you. I will identify myself as a born -again

Christian, and I will say that I have never for an instant been ashamed of my religious convictions.

I, however, am very ashamed of what has happened to the Christian community in contemporary

America. I feel that Christians have become so oppressively intolerant of other people that we have reached a point where Christians want us to have liberties as long as those liberties are those that are approved by the

Christian community, and no liberties that aren't approved by them. I think that is the core of fanaticism, and I think that people like Pat Robertson, even though we are brothers in Christ and sharing our religious conviction,

I think people like him are every bit as dangerous as Islamic fundamentalists like Khomeini.

And I think the sadness of all of this is that the gospel of Christ is losing its impact in this country because people who aren't

Christians can't get past this oppressive intolerance that is displayed over and over and over again today by the

Christian community. Well, I would like to say to that that intolerance is one of the things that I was trying to, when

Tom was asking me about definitions of fundamentalism, was trying to get into at that point. It does seem that in recent years especially, this aspect has grown into the overall umbrella definition of fundamentalism.

And that is not true for all people who identify themselves as fundamentalists. There are fundamentalists who identify me as a heretic and a liberal.

There are some people who believe, for example, the King James Bible is the only true English Bible, and they've come down pretty hard on me for my stand that that's definitely not the case.

And so, yes, you're right. There is a great deal of that going on, and of course

I am accused of that because my main ministry is dealing with cults. And people automatically figure that since I deal with cults, that means

I don't think they should exist, I don't think they should have rights, I don't think they should do this, that, and the other thing. That is not true. My personal belief is that the best way for the

Church to deal with these issues is not through intolerance, but through dealing with the issues.

Doing your homework, doing your study, as Mr. Barker will tell you,

I personally expose myself, certainly not as much as I feel I should have by the time of my age, but I do expose myself to other positions and why they hold that position and attempt to deal with it from that angle.

And I think that's something that Christianity needs to face up to today, is that if it's going to make a decent presentation to our society, is that Christians need to know what they believe and why they believe it, and realize that other people are going to hold different positions.

That doesn't mean you agree with it, but you should learn to deal with that position in the proper way.

And you can't deal with someone rationally or in the proper way if you don't know what you're talking about.

Someone who doesn't know what they're talking about just ends up arguing about something instead of really dealing with it. Can I ask these guys a question? Go ahead. How would either of you feel about open homosexuality?

Do you think the government should make laws that limit or punish or in some way restrict homosexuality?

A homosexual teacher admitting it to his students. How would either of you feel? Go ahead and let

Jason answer first. I think it's shameful that issues of that nature find their way into the religious community.

The Bible says it's an abomination and they should be stoned. Don't you agree with the Bible? First of all, you're taking that out of context.

That's one of the main things that I've seen amongst atheists is they do not read the Bible in its context, nor the

Bible speak for itself. Well, I certainly did read it in its context as a fundamentalist. Could I respond to that? Please, go ahead.

I would respond to it in this way. Isn't it a shame that today that we as Christians are more judgmental and less tolerant than those who find themselves in the atheist community?

You know, we could mention issues from here until midnight and we probably would not reach resolution.

But I think the shame is that we have to condemn people and present this horribly judgmental posture.

How are we ever going to expect them to want to share in our religious beliefs when we come across as tyrants?

And that is what is happening, hand over fist on such a broad scale that I find it frightening.

Well, my response to the question would be that first of all, you mentioned the Bible calls it an abomination and it most definitely does.

It does in the New Testament also. The Bible also says women should keep their mouths closed in church.

The Bible says a lot of things and you can pick out little issues like that and run them into the ground.

Can't you see the significance in this intolerance we are presenting to the rest of the world?

Well, certainly I can see when you're talking about intolerance if you're talking about a blind position.

And aren't you frightened by people like Pat Robertson? I mean, this scares me. And I am a

Christian and have been for 14 years. Sir, allow me to finish what I was saying. Mr.

Barker first asked about homosexuality I want to respond to that by saying that in the New Testament homosexuality is just as much of a sin as it was in the

Old Testament. But what he didn't mention in his statement was in the New Testament there is forgiveness for that just like there is for anything else.

You're not going out and stoning anyone in the New Testament and that is taking the Bible out of its context to say that. That was the

Old Testament law. But anyone who's read the Bible realizes that we're in a different situation at this moment.

As far as what you're saying to me about Pat Robertson you say he's dangerous.

Well, if you're saying by that that you feel that he has no capability willingness or intelligence enough to allow for any diversity on any issue whatsoever then anyone in that situation is obviously going to be dangerous.

But if you allow him as well as the most rabid atheist who would run for office the intelligence to realize that this is not a monarchy that the president doesn't run everything and that they can push for their ideals yes, but there's going to be other opposition there's going to be other positions then

I don't see him as dangerous as you're attempting to make the Ayatollah Khomeini. Khomeini would cut your arms off if you didn't vote for him.

I don't think Pat Robertson would do that. Let me just close by saying something is very, very wrong with Christianity in America when the atheists are more tolerant than Christians.

Thank you, Jason. That was a good call. This is William. Hello, William. Long wait, Emperor. Well, you're here now.

Yeah, I just thought, you know when I was a child I was thrust into Christianity. I was beaten and subjugated to believe.

I never had a choice until I became a man and then I studied science from anthropology to zoology.

Oh, and by the way, you know the man is zealot. He talks about proof of God in the human eye.

The common octopus, which is a mollusk also has something akin to the human eye and also the scallop.

I'm fully aware of that, sir. Yes, sir. Well, sir, I believe that, you know why don't you tell these people that the

Western Bible that you profess to be God is edited and tailored for Western civilization.

There were other holy writings, sir considered a book of Enoch but we don't have time for that because I believe you're a

Bible idolater. I listen to you people every morning on the radio. You let me have my say like you bully other people.

And you're a Bible idolater when you die and you go to heaven you're going to see a great big Bible with arms and legs coming in and says

Holy Bible and golden words coming to break you because that's your God. Sir, you have mental intercourse with people.

You take little children and you indoctrinate them and mold them in this philosophy of yours.

The intelligent masses that you lead the evidence of their intelligence is in the

TV Guide and the popular shows. That's the kind of people they don't study paleontology ichthyology, herpetology, oceanography physics, social sciences military science and or history.

You would have been born elsewhere, sir say in Bangkok in Rags and you would have been born into suffering. I wonder how much of this zeal you would have, sir.

Well, sir, you're obviously a very mad person. You're very upset with me. I don't think many of your statements are even rational for that matter.

I'm not going to respond in kind, sir. I would just like to mention to you that I have studied anthropology, biology physiology, anatomy

You studied physics? The quantum theory? Sir, would you please allow an intelligent

Are you a fundamentalist? I thought the world was created in 10 ,000 years. Well, sir, you obviously

Sir, you obviously and I understand having an intelligent conversation makes no sense and it's tempting to do that.

Lead on, lead on, sir. First of all, goodbye, sir. There he goes.

I think he was a little upset. What do you think, Tom? I think so. Let's say hi to Well, let's say hi to Jim in Glendale. First time caller to FYI Radio.

Hi, Jim. Hi, I'm not sure how to follow that. I don't know if you can, but give it a try.

Well, okay, well Gee, this is kind of a wrong time to come in but what I wanted to say was one thing is

Tom, I heard you say once that the fall of the Roman Empire was due to expansion.

They outgrew themselves and then this man here says it's due to Christianity and I wanted to throw one more cog in there.

It's actually due to lead. That's right. I've heard that. That's right. Due to what?

Lead. Lead. Yes, the pikes that the

Romans transported their water in was made of lead. The vases that they drank out of was made of lead.

And, of course, it's well documented now that what lead poisoning does to people. And the thing was is that the upper class people were the only ones that drank out of these containers mostly, for the most part.

And it was even noted by the philosophers of that time that the upper class people were growing weak not only physically but mentally and the slaves were still strong.

So that's an interesting comment. Can I say I did not blame the fall of the Roman Empire on Christianity.

I was just saying that Christianity was on the rise then and you certainly could not blame it on atheism whatever you were blaming it on.

It could not be on a lack of religion. Oh, no. I blame it on one chemical element.

Well, there might have been other factors but that's interesting. That's true. The next is

I guess a comment and this is going to sound a little bracy but who cares? We care.

This is important to us. Well We're human beings. There's no one group that's going to take over the

United States. I mean that's what the United States is is everybody has their own opinions. We're a melting pot.

Nobody's going to take over. But if we didn't care it wouldn't be a melting pot. We wouldn't have opinions. We wouldn't bad ideas around.

We wouldn't grow and be pluralistic and try things. I think it's exciting that we disagree and that we can battle it out in the battle of ideas.

That's exciting for America. Some of us care. I think it's good from the

Christian viewpoint too is that I basically agree with what he just said. You've got to have a discourse have an opportunity of communicating or everything stagnates.

Rick in Phoenix has been waiting longer than anybody to get on the air so he's first. Hello Rick. Hi. Yeah, I'm taking a lot of notes while I waited so it gets a little more complicated.

The first thing that comes to mind is that these shows are good because they help people think things through though many people prefer to just stay solidified in their previous views no matter what they hear.

People don't think completely and communication is not clear enough often and this creates stereotyped views of each camp going at each other with fragmented views and so things don't get a fair chance even there to reach a logical conclusion.

I was brought up very religiously. I went to a Protestant parochial school and then after that I found a smaller even more religious church which

I think emphasized law too much and love too little and it gave me a guilt trip I couldn't handle so I still believe basically that I'm a

Christian and I try to live that life but I'm very open -minded about things on Christian science scientific evolution what do they call it in the schools you know creationism.

I can see the logic to that but I'm not 100%. My point mainly is what George Vanderman said. I watched him a few times.

I watch Channel 21 sometimes. He warned against fundamentalism in government in the United States because he sees that it can be very tyrannical and oppressive and restrictive and freedoms.

I think he's a respected TV preacher evangelist and I would concur with him on that.

I think that the danger in fundamentalism one example is in homosexuality which we've talked about and I have a question very quickly

I want to get to is that it tends to create such an anti -homosexual environment that it forces those who are gay and I think the number would be pretty much the same throughout societies whatever the public policies and tone that was set the upbringing and so forth birth of genes whatever it is a combination has promoted promiscuity and almost made impossible a kind of respectability or permittableness to a monogamous marriage type of relationship which would have been a lot more healthy for everyone in all areas than the promiscuity that we've had which has been sort of a result of this good intentions leading to the road to hell as the saying goes.

My question primarily is to Jim White would he promote or approve of or fight against fundamentalists in government trying to force government as a lobby or as a politician to go into the bedrooms and do what the pharisees did when they caught the woman in adultery and wanted to stone her thereby enforcing their ethic of moral laws legislating morality or would he take the

Christian Christ -like approach and say where are your accusers after he told them of their sins and then told the woman that she was free to go and said neither do

I condemn you? I like that question was asked you really left with a lot of choice at that point.

My response to that is that it's interesting you bring that up today considering yesterday's

Supreme Court decision which I have not had an opportunity of reading and all I've heard is Tom yelling about it and I don't know whether Tom's read it or not either.

And you must know all about it by it. That's right, that's right. All I know is that they upheld a state ruling and exactly the extent of that I cannot comment on that and I wouldn't try to because that's certainly not my area.

Concerning the Christian viewpoint of homosexuality I mentioned this earlier and that is if you take a stonem and ask questions later viewpoint you're not dealing with the

New Testament. Well you wouldn't be dealing with it if you had a trial and stoned them either would you? Is that what

Christ did? No, what I'm saying is homosexuality on the basis of scripture unless you're going to throw out the entire thing from the scriptural viewpoint is definitely wrong.

But so are a number of other things. Hate is a perversion that is even greater according to Christ I think.

Okay, let me finish what I'm saying since you asked me a question.

My point is you asked would I be for government somehow going in the bedroom just like that.

Well of course not. But the Christian viewpoint is that is not

God's best. That is against how he has designed mankind to function and to be.

But how would fundamentalism and politics The Christian viewpoint sir would be to condemn the act but not condemn the person who is doing it.

Well what would politicians who are fundamentalists enforce? I am not a fundamentalist politician. Legislating morality that is what

I want to get to. Sir, I am not a fundamentalist politician so I don't know. My hope would be that they would approach that from the realization that the gospel is not grounded in human laws.

That the power of the gospel is not human laws. It is not government. Government is not the power of the gospel.

And the government cannot save people. The government should reflect a concern for our social structure and should not simply allow anarchy to reign but at the same time it cannot as many people have pointed out and many good

Christians have pointed out legislate a lifestyle. That is not to say that I approve of homosexuality.

I do not. And biblically it is wrong. But there are many other lifestyles that are wrong also. So to mark that one out and for some reason attack that more than anything else is to become unbalanced.

But at the same time you are asking me to make a decision for a politician when

I cannot make a decision for him in that realm as to what kind of laws he would or would not support. There would have to be a specific case to go on to be able to make that kind of a decision.

Well let me say as a fundamentalist aren't you pretty much locked to accepting the authority of the law of homosexuality.

And I wanted to tell it to your children in the classroom. Would you try to find some way to limit my freedoms to express myself?

To my children yes. Okay then you would in your law making would try to influence my life according to your morality.

No I would influence your ability to pervert my children. That's not a perversion.

Yes it is. Suppose I disagree with you. That doesn't matter. If you are in a position where you are putting your viewpoints into my children's head then you are the one responsible for that and I would have power over that.

What you want to do is to remove the Christian viewpoint from everything and have only the atheistic viewpoint.

That's not true at all. Which would say well that's fine, this is fine, you have no right to that. That's not what atheists say.

I would encourage a heterosexual teacher to preach his or her lifestyle to children or not to preach it or push it down.

Tyranny is tyranny. But to present it as a valid optional lifestyle. Suppose the student in the classroom is gay.

That's not your teacher's position. But a teacher does talk about going home to his wife or her husband.

Suppose the teacher were to talk about going home to his or her lover that was gay. Not as a tyranny. Realize that to me and I think to a vast number of people, the very idea of for example a child being raised by two fathers or two mothers is not even something that 30 years ago would have entered into a conversation.

But the element does exist in society. It does exist. There's murder and rape and many other things. And that does not make it normal or right.

And you equate homosexuality with murder and rape? No. What I'm saying is if you are going to take a position where you are saying that it is tyranny to not allow a person to present their particular viewpoint in the classroom and when that viewpoint is in my opinion and I think many other people's opinion a perversion is that this doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

But in the opinion of many other people it is not a perversion. It's a natural part of life and it should be encouraged just like we encourage the

American Indians. There's nothing natural about it. But you feel that but if you were gay you wouldn't feel that way.

So you're trying to impose your morality on another person. They feel it's right and you feel it's wrong.

And again we go back to this point where you've brought it up many times before concerning the authority of the scripture. In atheism there is no ultimate right or wrong.

Disagree with that or not my opinion is in atheism there is no ultimate right or wrong. And so all these things that the floodgate has simply opened up to all of these things.

But there is a right and there is a wrong. There is a conscience within you that does bear witness of what is right and wrong. You can ignore it for your entire life until the point where you can't even hear it anymore.

That does not change the fact that we know what is right and wrong within our hearts. That's not true. I believe it is. I'm an atheist and I feel there is not an absolute but there is a solid rational basis for morality and right and wrong in the world.

And what is that basis? That is the value of human life. That which is conducive to human life is good.

That which is not, which is violent, which harms human life that is evil. And homosexuality is conducive to human life?

Yes it is. It is the loving relationship between human beings. That is not love. Two human beings who wish to love each other.

I don't accept that. Well you don't but you're not gay but suppose you were. Suppose you were gay and you had a lover who was the same sex.

To me that's distasteful because I'm a heterosexual. But they live in this world. They're members of a pluralistic society.

They shop where I shop. They go to the schools where I go to school. They're human beings. They have brains. They have love.

They have desires. They have wishes. They want to live in this world. And what they do just simply because they do it does not make it right. It's right for them.

It is right. Well again you're going back to this idea of well whatever is right is right. No I'm not.

If it's for you. If it feels good for you and you don't hurt somebody else then it's cool right? If they harm someone else or themselves then

I can say morally that it's wrong. I would say A. They are harming themselves. B. They are harming their society and C.

If there is anyone who is involved with them in especially the situation where you have a child involved or some way where they are influencing the growing up the life of another person then that person is affected as well.

Suppose that person is gay. What do you mean gay? Suppose the young child suppose the junior high school boy is a gay boy and his teacher is heterosexual and is trying to influence him the other way.

I totally reject the idea that anyone is naturally gay. Well I disagree. A naturally gay person feels differently than you and you're trying to change his or her mind because you have a limited morality of what is right and wrong.

No I realize that there is a right and a wrong. That there is a standard to which you must appeal and I realize that I was created for a purpose and so that's another.

See when we discuss these issues you and I have completely and totally different world views. You and I are completely and totally different bases and unless people realize the difference in that basis they don't realize the reasons why we disagree so violently and that's why so many conversations like this go around and around and around is because the bases, the very world view that is taken is never discussed and there is no possible hope of agreement without a discussion.

But we do disagree and we know that and perhaps we can discuss and maybe even resolve a disagreement but at this point there are people who are gay in this society who have every right to live a free and productive life, free from imposition or from someone else's morality.

No matter how right you feel you are they live in this world. They're human beings and they want to live a full life free from your meddling.

And to say that that meddling is in some way wrong, you call it meddling, I would say that we have laws that outlaw numerous things that none of us would disagree on right now.

Ten years down the road we might disagree on them. It does not make them right. It does not make them wrong. If a person feels that his lifestyle should be one where he steals everybody else's property, we say that's wrong even if that makes them happy.

But that is harmful to humanity. Homosexuality is not harmful to humanity. I would definitely say that it is. It destroys the very foundation of our society, the very family unit.

Alright, we're going to take a break. This is Lisa in Peoria. Hello Lisa. Hi Tom. I see even though that supposedly

Pat Robertson may be running for president I still don't see there being a great surge of fundamentalism in the country.

I'm a Christian. I see a great surge of people who are against morals, against God.

Then there are a small amount of people who are trying to counteract that. But I really don't think that we're going to have this great fundamentalist country.

I really don't. I hope you're right. I wish we did. No, I don't believe that.

I mean, I love everybody. I don't hate people. I couldn't understand that man who called up so rabid at the end of the first hour.

No, I just wanted to say that I really, I don't think that we're heading for a big surge of fundamentalism.

If anything, I think that this country is getting more and more either amoral or immoral. Well, I agree with you at that point.

In fact, you know, it depends on how you look at the subject. It depends on what your basis of thinking is.

And I think the vast majority of people who do not subscribe to Christianity do not see that there is a massive degradation.

And that just simply highlights any type of activity that would attempt to work against that.

And I agree with you at that point. I'd like to comment. You can turn on the TV or radio any time of the day and hear a religious preacher preaching the

Bible, fundamentalism, all these different 57 varieties of faith. How often do you get to hear a free thinker, someone who is a free thinker, present some good reasons for free thought and liberalism?

This woman made a reference, for example. We hear it every day at three o 'clock, right, Tom? Well, okay. Now, wait a minute,

Lisa. Thank you for saying that, Lisa. I appreciate that. No, but really, Tom, you do present, you know, your side.

You're definitely not a religious preacher, right? You're right about that, but how many times do you get to hear this on the radio?

How many other radio stations would allow that? I want to say this woman made a reference to turning away from morals and away from God, as if somehow immorality were equal to godlessness.

There are many godless people in this world. There are 10 million atheists in America who are very moral people.

Oh, I didn't say they weren't. Well, you said turning away from God and away from morals. I have turned away from God, and I am a moral person.

I am highly moral, and most of my atheist friends consider themselves to be very moral and even moralistic.

We feel we should preach values and nonviolence and peace in this world. So it's not true to say that godlessness equals immorality.

I didn't say that. I didn't even say this country was turning away from God. I don't believe this country has believed in God for a long time.

They believed in religion. That's right. I never said the country was turning away from God. Well, it's a very religious country.

Ninety -six percent of Americans believe in God in some form. That's the problem, and I think Elisa would agree with me at this, is that Christianity, one of my pastor's favorite phrases is that Christianity is not a religion.

It's a relationship with Jesus Christ who preaches that sermon. And when you confuse, as you obviously may have done yourself, a religious activity with a relationship, then you've missed all of Christianity.

And for you to doubt the existence of a person that you once had a relationship with, to me, is a logical absurdity, and hence

I do not say it out of a judgmental attitude. I say it out of a simple factual attitude that if you would now deny the existence of Jesus Christ, then you obviously never had a relationship with him.

Well, I thought I did have a relationship with him. I believed very strongly. It was very motivating and deep. It was very uplifting.

It was exciting. I thought it was true just as you think it's true that you have a relationship with Jesus when you in fact do not.

Yes, I do. Well, you think you do, but you cannot demonstrate that you do. Oh, yes. I know exactly where you're coming from. No, I would say that when you talk about rational free thinkers,

I would say that the idea of your discussion concerning the complexity around us, the great amount of information, and that coming from non -existence is irrational.

I would say that the idea of attacking the scriptures... No, you said nature. I didn't say from non -existence.

You said from nature. Okay. Okay, from any type of non -intelligent... complex information coming from a non -intelligent force is an irrational position.

No, it is not. No, it is not, sir. Well, leave that to the listeners to think. Leave that to the listeners to judge whether a non -intelligent force can create a computer, and we'll allow the listeners to think that.

If you want to take that position, that's fine. My point is, in my thinking, that is not rational. In our thinking, it is rational.

Well, if you want to make up a very different form of thinking, then that's fine, but again, the listeners can judge at that point.

Go ahead, Tony. Let's move on to another call here, because we have a lot of people who haven't gotten on the air. This is Jack in Phoenix.

Hello, Jack. Yeah, hello, Tom. Hi. I just want to make a comment on what one of your speakers earlier was talking about gays and all that.

I'm very naive in that situation, but he was saying lovers, two men. Would he kindly elaborate a little bit?

We're not going to use that kind of language on the program here today. lovely. He said they're lovers. All right, well, let's get a response on that.

Well, I'm not a homosexual, and I cannot identify with the homosexual experience, but those people who are are homosexuals, and they express themselves in their own way.

I can't say much more about them because I'm not gay. 258 -KFYI is our telephone number.

Interesting and colorful language today. This is Dan, a first -time caller from Phoenix. Hello, Dan.

Yes, hello. I'm recovering here. I'm a little nervous, but hopefully I'll pull through here. I think the important issue that's being overlooked and not being discussed is the question, is the

Bible the word of God? Christianity, everything else goes down the drain if the

Bible is not the word of God. What I find, I guess you could say amusing, is how fundamentalists when falsehoods false prophecies, errors, false statements, etc.,

are pointed out for everyone to see. They continually violate their own book in Proverbs 30 verse 6, which specifically says,

Thou shalt not add unto his words. It's clear, it's specific, and makes no exceptions.

I would like to point out a few false prophecies to Jim, I believe it is.

I get his reaction. I'm a little nervous, as you can tell. Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 23 verse 3.

Deuteronomy, what was the reference? 23 verse 3. Okay, it says, An Ammonite or Laurebite shall not enter the congregation of the

Lord, even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the

Lord forever. An Ammonite or Laurebite shall not And it's restated in Nehemiah 13 verse 1. On that day, they read in the book of Moses, in the audience of the people, and the rain was found written that the

Ammonite and the Laurebite should not come into the congregation of God forever.

The prophecy there is clear, it is specific, and makes no exceptions. Now, you turn to the book of Ruth.

You find Ruth in the congregation of the Lord. Not only is she in the congregation of the

Lord, but she marries a man named Boaz and gives birth to a child.

And in doing so, she becomes an ancestor of King David and Jesus. Unfortunately, Ruth is a

Moabite. It is clearly stated in, for example, Ruth chapter 2, verse 2.

There is a beautiful example of a false statement, a false prophecy. Now, there is a powerful statement.

If the Bible or any other religious book contains just one false prophecy, one false statement, one error, then that book is not,

I repeat, not the word of a perfect being. It is just another book on the bookshelf.

And I hope everybody can read it.

And I hope you can read it.

And I hope you can read it. And I hope you can read it.

And I hope you can read it. And I hope you can read it.

And I hope you can read it. And I hope you can read it.

And I hope you can read it.

And I hope you can read it. And I hope you can read it. And I hope you And I hope you And I hope you can read it.

both. Whereas, when you allow the whole thing to speak for itself, you read it in its context and do not automatically take a position that says it's going to be wrong.

You realize that King James VI of Scotland became King James I of England in 1603 or 1604, whichever one it was when

Elizabeth died. And so, in other words, the whole context, the whole amount of information is not allowed to enter in.

I have been receiving this little periodical for quite some time and have not found so much as one example of a real contradiction in there.

He ignores the rules of context, he ignores logic, he especially ignores the original languages, a whole mess of things like that.

And this is a very common attack upon the scriptures. This is Robert in Deer Valley calling us long distance. Hello, Robert.

Yes, hello. Can you turn the radio off over there? Yeah, yeah, I'll turn it off. Thanks a lot. Okay. Go ahead. I just want to say a few things right off the bat.

I listen to your show every day. I think it's a good one. Thank you. I don't agree with almost anything you say.

That's okay. I like the controversy. We keep you listening. That's all I care about. Okay.

I have a comment to the Christians that listen to your radio station because, from what I've noticed, there's quite a few of them.

And that's for them to stop harping on you and trying to convert you because they're not buying it.

He's not buying it, guys. Call off the dogs. Yeah, call off the dogs.

Yeah, that's right. Actually, it's scriptural because the word says, if you... Now, I'm not exactly right on this, okay, but if you preach to someone and they don't accept it, then you should wipe the dirt from your feet and go on.

We're all going to hell. Okay, so... Or change the radio station. Whatever. Uh -huh. No, it's your choice.

I don't condemn anybody for what they believe. And the Bible also says...

Actually, if Christians followed what the Bible said, then there wouldn't be so much anger and violence.

Are you kidding? The Bible is an angry, violent book. Pardon me? The Bible is an angry and violent book.

Well, which part of it? We're talking about the New Testament now. I think that... Well, even Jesus believed in hell. Are you Bill White? Yes. Yes.

Am I talking to Bill White right now? No, I'm Dan. This is Dan talking. You're talking to Dan right now. Okay, I'm talking to Dan. Well, one thing

I wanted to say to Jim is, I can't... You are totally... You're the most brilliant Christian I've ever heard.

The way you express your... The way you explain things and you back yourself up. And I think that I would pit you against anybody.

Excuse me, let me move over while Jim's head swells here. Even Phil Donahue, who I've watched for years, who advocates somewhat

Catholicism, but gets in an argument with every Christian he has on the show. Well, I appreciate that.

I'm not sure how brilliant I am, but I appreciate your feeling. The point I'm trying to make, I guess, a lot of points, but Christians are very angry and very judgmental today.

I've been a Christian for about eight years, and when I first became a Christian, I was very much so, and especially towards Catholics.

Because, of course, organized religion, there's a lot of things that don't accord with the Bible, and particularly Catholicism with, you know,

Christians are going wrong. So that's my point. My question to you is,

I just tuned in not too long ago, so forgive me, but I'm trying to understand why you turn from, this is to Dan, I believe, turn from Christianity to atheism.

I used to believe the Bible was God's word, and I believed that I had been born again, I confessed my sins,

I had read the Bible, I had accepted the death of Jesus Christ as propitiation for my sins.

I accepted a call to the ministry, to go into the whole world and preach the gospel. It was very real, it was very powerful, it was very motivating.

I thought I was part of God's army, and hundreds and hundreds of people accepted Jesus Christ as a result, indirectly or directly, of the ministry that I was involved in.

But as I began to study these things that we were asserting in Christianity, I discovered that they cannot be said to be true.

The Bible cannot be said to be a reliable book. The members of the Freedom from Religion Foundation in Madison, Wisconsin, there are many ex -religionists and some ex -ministers who are convinced, using rational process and using any type of scientific inquiry, there are liberals, there are even some religionists in our group, who are convinced that Christianity cannot be said to be true.

And I had to be made painfully aware of that fact. I wanted it to be true, I loved my Christian life.

I thought it was the most exciting thing, it gave me purpose, it gave me meaning, it gave me something to do, it gave me eternal life and all the joy and all that.

I wanted it to be true, and I fought every inch of the way against what I was learning. And as I study, as I look at philosophies,

I look at science, I look at creationism, as I look at textual criticism in the Bible itself,

I find out that there is more faith involved, motivating people who are defending the

Bible, than rationality. I have to throw out Christianity as a valid factual religion.

As an example, this weak defense that Jim just gave for this biblical contradiction in the book of Deuteronomy.

He failed to mention the fact that this passage is a very discriminatory passage. Handicapped people and women are excluded from the assembly of God.

He brought up sexism. We have a book in our organization called Woe to the Women, The Bible Tells Me So, which documents how the

Bible is a very sexist, very patriarchal book. Jesus had no female members of his group, he was the son of God, God is a man, women are discriminated against.

He even brought up a point here in Deuteronomy. Women were not allowed to be in the assembly of God for various reasons.

Many reasons is that Christianity is one of the patriarchal religions that tries to suppress women, and in our American culture, we are suppressing women...

Well, this is what we feel, and Jim... You're so wrong, there's not a basis for that. But Jim, we feel there is a solid basis because of our study of the history.

The church has consistently resisted rights for women. Elizabeth Cady Stanton said that the Bible and the church are the greatest stumbling blocks.

I'm well aware of what Elizabeth Cady Stanton said. Can I ask you something? In Susan B. Act, where we started before we got on feminism, what training did you have in Christianity?

I went to Azusa Pacific University, I went four years in Bible school, and of course I was raised in the church and read the

Bible just about every day. I prayed, I studied... You said you're familiar with textual criticism?

Well, I'm moderately, because when I went to school, we touched... but I was a soul winner. Greek? I had two years of Biblical Greek, New Testament Greek.

I just touched on Hebrew, but I had enough Greek and Hebrew, and of course you can look at the books and the lexicons and study what words mean.

So when you started studying, when you started studying about these things that convinced you to leave Christianity, what were you studying?

Well, when I was reading the Bible itself, I started looking at liberal scholarship. I started looking at people, for example, way back in the time of Thomas Paine, one of the first...

he was not an atheist, but of course Thomas Paine was an anti -Christian who brought up some of the contradictions, the obvious contradiction of the two different conflicting genealogies of Jesus Christ, which no

Christian has been able to answer in spite of your expression. I'm really amazed that you would say that. I'm amazed that you would think that that contradiction has been explained.

You studied the backgrounds of these passages, you studied the way that they wrote these things, and you actually think they conflict.

They do conflict. That's truly amazing. Most Christians don't realize that the father of Joseph and Luke and Matthew are two different names, and the two different genealogies are of different lengths.

Not only do they contradict with each other... They weren't meant to be the same length. Well, they're both from the father Joseph. In spite of your claim that they go through the mother, there is no reason for believing that Luke's genealogy goes through the mother.

None at all. Why do you say it doesn't? Because it says at face value that Jesus was the son...

No, no, no, wait a minute. In other words, you will not allow for harmonization, right? See, that's the problem in discussing contradictions with fundamentalists.

In other words, you approach it with the viewpoint that it's already wrong, and so you won't allow it to be an ancient document.

No, that's not true, Jim. An ancient document that, for example, Matthew clearly divides the genealogy into certain sections, deleting certain people that everybody knows he's deleting.

He made no attempt to say this is a complete genealogy, and yet you point to that, and don't let people know that the historical backgrounds, the way that they wrote at that time, the whole nine yards completely gives the lie to your argument.

You see, the problem we have here in discussing biblical contradictions with fundamentalists is that a priori, a fundamentalist cannot accept even the possibility of an error in the

Bible. I am not limited by that narrative. And a priori, you automatically assume that it is... That's not true. I have changed my mind on many points that I thought were contradictions, and I've said

I'm sorry, you're right, your explanation suffices. But there are far too many contradictions in the Bible to be overlooked.

And that explanation does not hold water. Why? We can debate that. Why? Because Luke says that the genealogy of Jesus...

I thought you were talking about this one in Deuteronomy. All right, let's take a break here, because we have to get one more break in before the end of the hour.

Let's say hi to John in Phoenix, a first -time caller. Hi, John. Hi. You know, I wanted to say that I agree with everything that Dan is saying, but I'd like to just read one quick passage, and it's not from the

Bible. Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe, a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we, with our modest powers, must feel humble.

Those words are written by Albert Einstein. So basically what I'd like to say is, don't believe in Christianity nor the

Bible. It's 2 ,000 years old. It's very condemning. It's almost to the point where I would see it being horrid in this day and age.

But I do think you should believe in God or some... let's call it the force. All right,