August 10, 2022 Show with Roger Salter on “John Gill & Augustus Toplady: Two Compatible Calvinists”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 10th day of August, 2022, and one of my very favorite guests of all time has returned for another interview today.

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His name is Roger Salter, and he is rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, which is a

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Reformed confessional, Cranmerian, and historically Protestant congregation firmly committed to the inerrant holy scriptures and the 39 articles of religion.

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Today we are going to address John Gill and Augustus Toplady, two compatible

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Calvinists, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back, my dear friend and brother in Christ, Roger Salter.

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Hello, Chris. We're delighted to be with you. Well, Roger, I've already given somewhat of a detailed explanation of St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham when I introduced you, but why don't you let our listeners know about some of the elements of your

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Anglican congregation. First, you are Reformed. That would obviously relate to your adherence to the

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Protestant Reformation and the teachings of the Reformers as far as they were faithful to the scriptures, of course, and you're confessional.

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Why don't you comment on that? Can you explain what confessional means in regard to Anglicanism?

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Yes, absolutely. We are very much committed to all things

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Reformational in the Anglican Church. The 39 articles, the scriptural liturgy, the catechism, we interpret these as exactly as they were meant to be by the authors at their time, both historically and grammatically.

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I guess the best abbreviation we can use, without exalting the man over much, is that we are

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Cranmerian in theology, and that puts us in line with the Continental Reformers, many of whom had an input into the development of the

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Church in England during the 16th century. And just to let our listeners know, unless they're

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Anglican, I'm sure very few of them know what Cranmerian means. It's referring to Thomas Cranmer, who was the

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Archbishop of Canterbury under the kingship of Henry VIII, and Thomas Cranmer was a thoroughgoing

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Calvinist as far as I understand. Very much so. And he, unfortunately, after the death of King Henry VIII and when the

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Church of Rome was once again the official state church in England, Cranmer, out of fear of being executed, recanted his

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Protestant views. But then his conscience got the better of him through the grieving of the

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Holy Spirit, and he later recanted his recantation, and not only was executed, but he plunged the hand that signed his recantation of the

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Protestant faith into the flames before the rest of his body was burned. Am I remembering that accurately?

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That's absolutely right, Chris. Yes. He had a lot of hardship and persecution during his imprisonment, which of course weakened him physically and mentally, and he was restored in time to actually beat his persecutors to the stake.

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He got there before them, so he was willing to die as a martyr for the cause of Christ.

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Yes, and if anybody wants to hear a full episode of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on Thomas Cranmer, I have had the privilege of interviewing

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Dr. Ashley Null, who is a Cranmer scholar, and you can hear in much more detail all about the life and legacy of Thomas Cranmer, who has become one of my heroes of the faith.

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And he would be obviously strongly associated with the 39

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Articles of Religion, since he was the one who drafted them. Am I correct there? I didn't quite pick that up,

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Chris, but he was very much the author of the liturgy, the principal author of the articles, and his homilies and the homilies that he sponsored were also part of our confessional stance.

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The first book of homilies contains reformational thought from various authors.

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And now to go into the theme of our actual interview today,

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John Gill and Augustus Toplady, two compatible Calvinists. Perhaps, I mean,

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I'm sure that most of my listeners are Calvinists. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly confident that's the case.

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But in the event that there are some listening today who are not Calvinists, who may be new to the program, would you say that an accurate comparison of Calvinism and Arminianism would be that Calvinists believe that they owe 100 % of the praise, honor, and glory for their salvation to Jesus Christ, and that they cannot even include their own will or decision to come to Christ as a part of a cooperation with God in their salvation.

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Whereas Arminians, in contrast, they believe that man's will was not so damaged by the fall.

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It was tainted with sin, but not so damaged as to be totally depraved.

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And the Arminian believes that man has enough goodness in him to salvifically choose

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Christ prior to his regeneration, prior to receiving a new heart from God, and prior to being filled with the

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Holy Spirit, that man innately has an ability to please God by choosing him in a saving way.

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And, of course, there are other things included in that. They believe that Jesus Christ died for every human that ever lived and ever will live, and a full -blown

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Arminian would believe that man, even if he is truly born again, can lose his salvation. But wouldn't that be a basic summary of the comparison of those two systems of theology?

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That's exactly the contrast, Chris. And the

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Calvinistic Augustinian, classic Augustinianism, which has thrived throughout the centuries from the era of the

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Church Fathers, exhorts us to place all our confidence in God.

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We have no capacity to return to him, no desire to, because after all, he's holy, and we have no holiness or righteous affections within us until the new birth.

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So we're stuck in inability until the Spirit gives us spiritual life, and we are drawn to Christ, and he moves us to give consent to his wooing of us by the revelation of his glory and mercy and righteousness and power.

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It is Christ who saves us from the initial stages of our conversion all the way through preserving us until we gain glory with God.

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Well, these two figures that we are addressing today are great men of God who

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I uphold as heroes. There is a difference of opinion amongst Calvinists in regard to John Gill.

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There are some who refer to him as a hyper -Calvinist. I like to side with my friend

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Dr. Tom Nettles on this dispute. He believes that John Gill cannot rightly be given the label of hyper -Calvinist.

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But why don't you tell us about each of these men individually first, and then any kind of cooperation or meeting or involvement that they have had with one another and how they could be rightly called two compatible

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Calvinists. Well, it's an intriguing topic, and it absolutely enthralls me,

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Chris. And please stop me or interrupt at any time you feel it's right to do so.

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But John Gill, who lived from 1697 to 1771, he was senior to Augustus Toplady, who died at the age of 38.

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Augustus Toplady was born in 1740 and died in 1778.

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But it was a remarkable and very close partnership in the Gospel between these two men.

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And if you look at them theologically in terms of the doctrines of salvation, what are formally called soteriology as part of our entire theological approach, they were absolutely twinned and absolutely compatible.

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And there's a remarkable commonality and correspondence between this great

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Baptist theologian, who I think was the greatest of Baptist theologians thus far, and Augustus Toplady, who happened to be the premier advocate of Calvinism in the

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Church of England in the same era. You had at that point the Great Awakening and preachers like Whitefield and Grimshaw and so many wonderful advocates of the

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Gospel, both Church of England and what we would call dissenters at the time.

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But these two men were like twins theologically, in spite of the difference in their ages.

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And the interesting thing about this is that in their relationship, the denominational differences between Baptist and Anglican were absolutely no barrier whatsoever in their happy accord over the sovereignty and effectuality of divine grace.

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They were utterly in congenial unity in doctrine. A great harmony of thought existed remarkably between them.

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They labored unitedly to conserve the reformational truth on grace and salvation.

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Both of them wanted to ensure that their own ecclesiastical affiliations remained true to their original stance and persevered in these truths against all odds, all invasions of liberalism and unitarianism and Arminianism, which became the great problem in both denominations fairly early on in the 17th and into the 18th centuries.

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But here's what is the lovely thing about it, is it wasn't only a theological accord, it was a personal friendship and relationship, because each was a favorite preacher of the other, and each of them eagerly took every opportunity to hear the other's sermons.

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Guild preaching in Horsley Town, which I think is on the fringe of London, and Toplady, interestingly enough, at the

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Huguenot Church in Orange Street in the center of London, near Leicester Square, the

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French Calvinist chapel, and each of them would attend their places of worship and preaching whenever it was possible.

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And there was a great and evident mutual admiration between the staunch

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Baptist, who I don't think in any sense needs to be deemed a hyper.

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He did recognize, why am I saying that? There's no need to. He recognized that the

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Gospel must be preached to all, and everyone is under the obligation to hear the command of, you know, heeding the

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Gospel and placing their faith in Christ. But there was great mutual admiration between the two men,

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Gil and Toplady, and they had a passion, not just were they theological and very intellectual, but a passion for effective preaching, as informed by Holy Scripture and empowered by the

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Holy Spirit. These men had warm hearts toward the Lord, to Scripture, and to the people to whom they ministered, and both believed in the orthodoxy and necessity of the doctrines of grace.

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There was no other scriptural option. Their intellects and hearts were taken captive, literally taken captive, by the root doctrine of their salvific convictions.

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The fact of divine predestination, they weren't lukewarm on that, they didn't hold it back.

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Toplady said he had more conversions when he preached on predestination and human inability than the times when he held back and simply preached on justification by faith.

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But divine predestination and electing love, effectual calling and provenient grace, these were the great elements in their teaching.

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And I must admit these are the emphases that endear them to me, because electing love and provenient grace, and the grace that preserves us until the end, we're called to persevere, but only because we're preserved.

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These doctrines touch my poor little weak heart too, Chris, and I'm enthralled by them.

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If I can just say this, they move me more than anything that is considered to be romantic.

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I'm not talking about sexual romance, I'm talking about things that enthrall the heart and beckon us to explore further into things like poetry or music or art or nature.

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These things touch me more than anything else is capable of doing. These two men are sweet and dear, but very firm believers in the doctrines that Calvin didn't invent, nor did the

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Reformation. They came from the Church Fathers, and especially Augustine. And both men went back to the first 400 years of the

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Church to show that there was a historical precedence for the belief of these doctrines, that people think somehow that John Calvin, during a night of grave indigestion and sleeplessness, conceived of this wonderful doctrine.

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It's the loveliest doctrine you can imagine, that we were in God's love and affection and care in eternity before creation was, before we even arrived on this planet.

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We were dear to God and redeemed by his beloved Son. Now, let me ask you a question.

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You use the term, Provenient Grace, and I've always heard that connected to Arminianism and even

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Roman Catholicism, in that God gives the sinner, who is not totally depraved, but has enough goodness within him, that God only needs to give him a jumpstart by grace, if you will, and then he can, through his own natural will prior to regeneration, cry out to God for salvation and choose to follow

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Christ. So how are you using that term? I've never heard it used in the context of Calvinism before.

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Yes, I mean, you know, the old word prevent meant going before, and that's where the derogation of provenient comes from.

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Wesley, in particular, made it universal. And the Catholics say, well, it's a bit of help that God gives us when we get to the end of ourselves.

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It actually means, and I think effectual calling sums it up beautifully, is that our call to God, our ability to hear it and respond to it and embrace him is because he's already drawn us to him.

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It's a consequence of regeneration. And Wesley and Arminians and the

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Church of Rome have weakened the sense of Provenient Grace. It's really grace that goes before and awakens the dead and gives us the spiritual freedom to hear the call of God and come to him in repentance and faith.

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It's one of those things that has been diminished, you know, in popular thought and in Arminianism.

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It's unfortunate, but it really is an Augustinian term that only

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Augustinians have a right to use. Huh. I never even knew that. In fact,

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I don't believe until today I've ever heard a Reformed person utilize

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Provenient Grace as a term in a favorable way. So, in other words, this is a term that the

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Arminians are misusing and redefining, you're saying, including John Wesley and the

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Roman Catholics. Absolutely. They think of it as assisting grace. We say that it's resurrecting grace.

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It is new creation, new birth that enables us to be wooed by Christ to himself.

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It's something that he enables within us. And it bothers me that the term has been so debased.

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Rightly, neither, well, it depends what meaning or significance they put on the word

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Provenient, but it comes from preventing and that means enabling beforehand. We don't have the capacity, so it's given to us by grace that goes before, and we are totally dependent upon it and don't even want it until it gets to us by the mercy of God.

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And by the way, I want to make an announcement before I forget, but since we are discussing

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John Gill today, I have heard from Jordan Stefaniak, and I'm sorry,

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Jordan, if I'm mispronouncing your name, but he is the president of the London Lyceum, and he is editor of Theologia Viatorum, and he is a book review editor for the

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Journal of Classical Theology and research fellow at the SEBTS Center for Faith and Culture.

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Well, we are going to be having an interview. The date has not been yet picked by Jordan, but God willing, we're going to be talking about the

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John Gill Project, which is a project that is the result of a cooperation between the

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London Lyceum, the Andrew Fuller Center, and H &E Publishing, who have partnered together with the mission to republicize the work of John Gill for a new generation.

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And so I just thought I'd announce that right now, so people will keep their ears open and their eyes open for updates on the date when we have this

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John Gill Project discussed on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio with Jordan Stefaniak.

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And who knows, he might be listening now. I just thought I'd let you know about that. That's right.

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Well, I think that's a wonderful project. And I've got my copy of The Cause of God and Truth.

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My problem is that the print is a bit too small for me to read comfortably. But I've dipped into it over the years and been absolutely enthralled by Gill's writing and his theological genius.

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But, yes, and it's likewise with my volume, The Complete Works of Augustus Toplady.

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That has very small print, too. But there's some excellent material in there. But what

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I've got as my guide to John Gill just for this afternoon, Chris, is in the book edited by Timothy George and David Dockery, theologians of the

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Baptist tradition. I've got a quote or two from Timothy in his essay on John Gill, which

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I'll get to in a moment if you think that's a good idea. But, you know, I am just so thrilled to discover this very close union between Gill and Toplady, which means that in the essentials, we

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Reformed Anglicans and all Reformed Baptists are one in the essentials of the

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Gospel. And part of my plea is to people like that, please don't be afraid of us

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Anglicans, because you might just find somebody who loves Gill at Toplady.

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You might have to do a lot of searching to find an Anglican who loves Gill, but if you search long and hard enough, you will eventually find one.

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Of course, Toplady is a no -brainer, isn't Toplady universally loved by Anglicans?

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He gets a rough time, too. Oh, really? Yes. Well, not Reformed Anglicans, but he's been greatly neglected.

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And I'm going to say something I was saving up as a sort of climax, Chris. But in his coverage of Ryle, in his

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Christian Leaders of the 19th Century, Ryle's coverage of Toplady, and I have got a quote for this, but I'll quote it from memory.

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He says that Toplady, among all those great men of the 18th Century, has not had a good biographer.

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There have been a couple of good ones since, but the one I really want to commend is,

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I've got it here, because I've got some quotes from him.

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While you're looking, I'll give our listeners the e -mail address for questions. If you have a question for Reverend Roger Salter, send them in to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N. Give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. So, I'm sorry, Roger, are you ready? Oh, absolutely, Chris. You know this book well.

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It's a mutual friend who has published it, Rock of Ages by Thomas Garrett Isham.

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Yes, that's published by one of our sponsors here, Solid Ground Christian Books. Yes. Well, the more

26:32

I look at this book, I can't commend it enough. It is superb in every way.

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It is by far the best material at the moment available on Top Lady.

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It's superb. If anybody wants to know this, much overlooked man, unjustly forgotten by many, known by one or two hymns, but I'm afraid the sensitivity of the

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Methodists and Arminians to Wesley has meant that Top Lady has been cornered, and he should be up there with Whitefield and other great preachers of the era.

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He was a great preacher, a great scholar, a great advocate of the gospel, and especially the doctrines of the

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Reformation. And my thought of this is very personal, Chris, and I probably shouldn't say it, but the two men

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I love the most among the Anglicans of the 18th century are George Whitefield for his love of the doctrines of grace and his evangelism, and Augustus Top Lady.

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Those two to me are the very summit of the Great Awakening, along with people like Gil and lots of people who weren't

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Anglicans, but as I say, I can't speak highly enough of Tom Isham's book, and I would recommend it without reservation to anybody who was just even wanting to dip their toe into the subject of Top Lady, because once you start the book, you won't put it down.

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Well, I want to repeat the website for anybody who wants to purchase Rock of Ages, which is the title of the biography of Augustus Top Lady, The Little Known Man Behind the

28:24

Well -Known Hymn by Thomas Isham. Go to solid -ground -books .com,

28:30

solid -ground -books .com. Please remember to mention that you heard about this book and solid -ground

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Christian books in general from Iron Sherpins Iron Radio. We're going to go to our first station break, so if anybody has a question for Roger Salter, once again, the e -mail address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

28:52

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Reverend Roger Salter of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Visit royaldiadem .com That's royaldiadem .com today.

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Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife Bronnie, his business partner and manager

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Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And we've got some wonderful news from Royal Diadem Jewelers.

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We are getting all the profits from any sale that takes place in our listening audience of $100 or more.

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Of course, you have to mention when you contact Royal Diadem Jewelers that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And I hope that you do that today or at least within the first month of their advertising so that we here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio will receive all of the profits for the sale of whatever you purchase.

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And I am really excited and honored that Royal Diadem Jewelers think so highly of this program that they are doing that for us.

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Their website, again, is royaldiadem .com, royaldiadem .com. And I want to thank the son of my guest today,

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Alex Salter, who actually did the voiceover for that commercial. I'm sure you recognized his voice immediately, didn't you?

42:32

I did. I was quite surprised to hear. We had a lot of interruption on our handpiece here, but I recognized

42:39

Alex toward the end. And my guest today also,

42:45

Roger Salter, he recorded the earlier ad for the

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Historical Bible Society. And I'm sure many in our audience made the connection when they heard you being interviewed through that ad.

43:00

And we want to thank you so much for that very valuable ad that you recorded for us. Oh, no, that was a pleasure to do,

43:06

Chris. Well, let's return to our subject at hand about John Gill and Augustus Toplady, two compatible

43:15

Calvinists. Tell us more about John Gill and Augustus Toplady and what makes them stand out in your mind as heroes of the faith and other things that may be unique about them individually and also involving their cooperation with one another and their friendship.

43:35

Well, I've got here, just as an illustration of the bonding between these two men in the

43:43

Gospel, two quotes from Timothy George's chapter on John Gill in the book

43:48

I mentioned. And his very first paragraph in the biography of John Gill reads like this.

43:57

Shortly after the death of John Gill in 1771, Augustus Toplady, famed as the author of the hymn,

44:06

Rock of Ages, gave the following estimate of the legacy of his deceased friend.

44:12

While true religion and sound learning have a single friend remaining in the

44:18

British Empire, the works and name of Gill will be precious and revered.

44:25

So Toplady's sentiment, Timothy goes on to say, was echoed by Christian leaders on both sides of the

44:33

Atlantic who mourned the loss of the great Baptist theologian of the 18th century,

44:39

I should say, greatest theologian of the 18th century.

44:45

And then on pages 24 and 25 of the same volume, there is this comment.

44:54

Gill, like Augustine and Calvin, was drawn into predestinarian polemics when challenged by opposing views that seemed to disparage the grace of God and his sovereignty and salvation.

45:07

It was Toplady's judgment that no one since Augustine himself had written so extensively or so persuasively in defense of the doctrines of grace as Gill.

45:20

After reading Gill's reply to Wesley's attack on the doctrine of perseverance, his

45:27

Anglican friend wrote, this is Toplady again, between morning and afternoon service, read through Dr.

45:35

Gill's excellent and nervous tract on predestination against Wesley.

45:41

How sweet is that blessed and glorious doctrine to the soul when it is received through the channel of inward experience.

45:50

I believe it may be said of my learned friend as it was of the Duke of Marlborough that he never fought a battle which he did not win.

45:59

So there's the high estimate of Gill from Augustus Toplady, which

46:06

I think is wonderful. And I don't know if you want me to continue with any comments at all.

46:14

Sure. In fact, one thing I'd just like to interject is I love these great stories of great heroes of the faith who reach across denominational lines into someone who, to someone who represents a different denomination or fellowship or association, such as this friendship between John Gill and Augustus Toplady, Gill being a particular

46:45

Baptist, today he would be called a Reform Baptist, and Toplady being an Anglican.

46:51

And something similar was demonstrated, I don't know if you're aware of this, but John Gill also had a very close friendship with a

47:02

Seventh -day Baptist named Samuel Stennett, who was also, like Toplady, a hymn writer.

47:08

And they exchanged pulpits because they worshipped on different days.

47:14

Gill, obviously, worshipping on Sunday, and Samuel Stennett, being a Seventh -day Baptist, had his worship services on Saturday.

47:23

And Samuel Stennett preached at John Gill's funeral, at John Gill's request prior to his death.

47:33

Yes. Yes, I have heard of Stennett, but I don't have much information about him, but I do recognize the name.

47:43

The lovely thing to me, Chris, is what Toplady says, you know, between morning and afternoon service, read through Dr.

47:53

Gill's Excellent and Nervous, that sensitivity on predestination, and how sweet is that blessed and glorious doctrine when it is received through the channel of inward experience.

48:07

These men had such a wonderful and close inward experience of Christ, and it was shared among them.

48:13

I mean, I can't think of a closer union than two brethren in Christ, you know, with that obvious love of the

48:21

Savior, His truth, His purpose, and His eternal love.

48:27

I think these things are just of commanding importance to every believer.

48:34

I have a quote of my own, which I'm hesitant to use, and perhaps I shouldn't. It's a rather strong one on the approach of these two men, but they shared a very strong,

48:48

I'll take out the word I was going to use, but had a very strong and negative approach to Arminianism, because they saw it as a variety of rationalism that undermined

49:02

Christian faith and hope in a perfect and eternal redemption. You see,

49:07

I find the doctrines of Arminianism diminish the effectual working and glory of the

49:14

Savior. When He saves, He saves entirely and forever. And Arminianism, to me, is ruled out, of course, as a heresy, because everything that God says,

49:27

I will do, I shall, man pipes up and says, yes, if I agree with you,

49:32

I give you permission, of course. You know, it's not only a matter of sovereignty, of the divine will over ours, it's the fact that human nature hates

49:42

God. And I don't think evangelicals get that point, that we are opposed and at war with God until He tames us down, mellows us by His grace, and whips the sword out of our hand, because we defy

49:58

God. And we realize that more and more after the new birth, I think. We are so blind before our regeneration that we don't even realize how much we hate the

50:11

Lord. Yes, in fact, we as Reformed Christians, when we say, and we repeat, the often quoted phrase, probably, which became most popular in the 19th century and perhaps even during the

50:33

Jesus movement in the 20th century, but Jesus saves. When we say that, we say that as an emphatic declaration of truth, and we do not mean

50:46

Jesus tries to save, but frequently fails. As an Arminian must logically conclude from his own theology, we dismiss that as a falsehood, and we believe

50:58

Jesus saves. In fact, right now, I want you to pick up where you left off there, because we have to go to our midway break right now.

51:07

Folks, please be patient with us as we take our midway break, because it's the longer break in the middle of the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

51:17

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the

51:22

FCC requires of them to localize geographically all of their programming, including

51:29

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, with their own local public service announcements and other local announcements.

51:35

We simultaneously, on the other hand, air our globally heard commercials. Please use this time wisely.

51:42

Write down as much of the information as you possibly can that our advertisers provide in their commercials, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers, and we hope that that often means that you purchase their products, that you use their services, that you support their parachurch organizations, that you visit their churches.

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But when you cannot do any of those things, there's something that you definitely can do. Respond to our advertisers and thank them for sponsoring

52:15

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio. If indeed you are grateful that there are individuals and businesses and corporations and ministries and churches who love this show so much that they share some of the money that God has blessed them with with us so that we can survive, that we can remain on the air.

52:37

If you really love this show, you have our advertisers largely to thank.

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Next to God himself, it's our advertisers that keep this program going.

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So please, at the very least, respond to our advertisers and say thank you for sponsoring Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

52:55

Also, send in your questions to Roger Salter, to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

53:02

Don't go away. We are going to be right back, right after these messages, with more of Roger Salter and our discussion on John Gill and Augustus Toplady, two compatible

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Calvins. Attention all men in ministry leadership.

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You never have to refrain from saying something humorous on this show. But I do want to, before I return to our discussion,

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I want to remind our listeners that if you really love this show, and you don't want it to disappear, go to ironsharpensironradio .com

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click support, then click click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

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I want to take this time to thank you, Roger, and your lovely bride

01:15:42

Maureen for the moving and encouraging and comforting generosity financially that you both have shown me over the years and I will never be able to adequately thank you for your benevolence to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:16:02

Well, send in your emails if you have questions, folks, for Roger on John Gill and Augusta Stoplady and anything on the broad spectrum of Anglicanism as well.

01:16:12

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com and give us your first name, your city and state, and country of residence.

01:16:23

So, Roger, let's pick up where you left off there about more reasons why our listeners should know about these two great heroes of the faith,

01:16:35

John Gill and Augusta Stoplady and why their friendship and their collaborating for the kingdom of God was so touching to you and so inspiring to you.

01:16:46

Well, I've got a book in front of me which is a biography of Stoplady by George Lawton.

01:16:54

It was published in 1983 but I've been looking for quotes that show the agreement and the unity both of character and of theological conviction between these two great men, mutually supportive, mutually appreciative, and I've got in front of me a paragraph that I'm going to try to reduce,

01:17:17

Chris, if that's alright, because I'm trying to highlight this wonderful relationship between Gill and Stoplady and Lawton says the second star dominant in the

01:17:33

Stoplady firmament because the first man that he admired and loved was his fellow

01:17:38

Anglican George Whitfield and then he says, of course, the second star dominant in the

01:17:45

Stoplady firmament because he awaited orders, that is ordination to a parish in,

01:17:52

I suppose, London was Dr. John Gill who was then in his early 60s and I skimmed down the page to Stoplady kept in touch with Gill right up to his death in 1771 whenever possible on his trips to London from Devonshire after he was beneficed, that is he was granted a parish to minister in he heard

01:18:18

Gill preach he read and re -read Gill's works, delighting especially in his sermons doctrinally he valued

01:18:27

Gill's tracts on predestination justification and final perseverance he considered that the cause of God and truth stood unanswered after 30 years five years after meeting

01:18:42

Gill he set down in his diary something of what the Baptist scholar preacher meant to him and so he goes on I've already given this quote from another context he's saying how much he enjoyed reading the sermons and another writing of Gill's of which

01:19:02

I'm not aware called The Watchman's Answer Stoplady is often regarded as not being a very amiable or genial kind of man but he was he was on the guest list of soirees held by Dr.

01:19:20

Johnson in London and the literati of that time he was very approachable and very kind in his conversation with others but I have a quote here

01:19:32

I'm turning to the book, I was going to leave it a bit later on but it's from that wonderful book by Tom Isham and it's something that I think a lot of ministers would share this is from Rock of Ages that we've been recommending just shows again this lovely warmth between the two men despite his success as a preacher and his popularity generally

01:20:02

Toplady remained largely disappointed in the spiritual caliber of most of his parishioners though duty bound to engage them socially as well as religiously a journal entry from December 9, 1767 makes clear his impatience with their superficial discourse the quote a good deal of company dined here he wrote in the wake of hosting the parish gathering how unprofitable are worldly interviews by contrast he reported that he spent the latter part of the evening much more advantageously reading a sermon and a tract by John Gill.

01:20:47

Toplady was a fervent admirer of Gill as mentioned earlier and a great reader of sermonic literature generally.

01:20:55

He was not equipped with social skills but the lure of theological reflection ordinarily trumped his desire for social intercourse and those who were less interested in or inarticulate concerning spiritual and religious concerns so you can see he was an avid reader and took every advantage of an opportunity to receive edification especially from John Gill and having mentioned

01:21:25

Gill's worth to Toplady, I wanted to read briefly if that's alright

01:21:31

Chris, a quote from Ryle on Toplady and his ministry and I can keep it brief but it was

01:21:45

Ryle's assessment of his predecessor of a century before he says but I go further than this

01:21:53

I do not hesitate to say that Toplady's controversial works display extraordinary ability, for example and this is what

01:22:03

I wanted to emphasize as an encouragement to Baptists to befriend

01:22:08

Reformed Anglicans and for us to be congenial towards our Baptist friends

01:22:14

I didn't say in the previous quote that Toplady was reading a sermon by Gill which was very firmly against infant baptism but they never crossed swords on that particular issue it doesn't in any way equal the importance of agreement in the

01:22:36

Gospel and the way in which we are restored to God and the way in which we benefit from Christ's atonement but here is something that I wish

01:22:45

Anglicans would recognize and become familiar with for example his historic proof of the doctrinal

01:22:53

Calvinism of the Church of England this is the popular Dr. Ryle whom people perhaps do not realize just how

01:23:02

Reformational he was is a treatise that displays a prodigious amount of research and reading it is a book that no one could have written who had not studied much, thought much and thoroughly investigated an enormous mass of theological literature.

01:23:20

You see at once that the author has completely digested what he has read and is able to concentrate all his reading on every point which he handles the best proof of the book's ability is the simple fact that down to the present day it has never been really answered it has been reviled smeared at, abused and held up to scorn but abuse is not argument the book remains to this hour unanswered and for the simplest of all reasons that it is unanswerable.

01:23:54

It proves irrefragably irrefragably whether men like it or not that Calvinism is the doctrine of the

01:24:03

Church of England and that all her leading divines until the

01:24:08

Archbishop Lord's time were Calvinists. All this has done logically, clearly and powerfully.

01:24:16

No one I venture to think could read the book though through and not feel obliged to admit that the author was an able man.

01:24:26

And you see I might sound a bit harsh here and I'm not really harsh toward other

01:24:32

Christians who think differently about the reformed faith and the true faith of Anglicanism but strictly speaking and I say this no

01:24:42

Armenian no Anglo -Catholic who is not an Augustinian should occupy an

01:24:49

Anglican pulpit without absolute and literal and complete loyalty to the 39 articles.

01:24:59

It was like the wonderful Scotsman John Rabbi Duncan who was a very dear and tender man said to his

01:25:12

Presbyterian colleagues never let an Armenian in your pulpit. You see I think it is rationalism.

01:25:19

I think it is counter to the Gospel. I think it undermines the Gospel. I think it stops people from seeking the mercy of God because they think that's in their power at any time that suits them.

01:25:33

It is not. And so I have and I'll use the word now I didn't use before like Gil and Top Lady a detestation of Armenianism.

01:25:44

We all start that way usually when we become Christians but it is something that we must not entertain or in any way support.

01:25:53

That is my strict private view. I would be polite and courteous to Armenian believers that when it comes to vows for ministry and what we subscribe to I think that should be done with integrity and honesty and I would say the largest percentage of those who are ordained to Anglican ministry have no fondness whatsoever for the doctrines of grace.

01:26:21

So he wrote this book about the historic Calvinism of the

01:26:27

Church of England. Some people want to be more polite and say Augustinian and it's the same thing.

01:26:34

That's where Calvin went to Scripture and Augustine and he also wrote a marvelous piece that is more brief.

01:26:41

The Church of England vindicated from the charge of Arminianism written in 1769.

01:26:49

So there's a sense without being discourteous and probably people would think

01:26:56

I was a little too severe on this. It's not Arminians that I have a dislike for.

01:27:05

It is Arminianism. I think it is so disgraceful to even hold up that banner before the living

01:27:12

God who does everything that is essential to our redemption and eternal well -being.

01:27:19

And I can say this, I would never want to have one thing to boast about in the presence of God.

01:27:26

If he translates me from this earth to his heavenly abode

01:27:31

I would rather know and praise him for the fact that he did it all.

01:27:37

Amen. By the way, I want to give you a couple of words of encouragement from listeners.

01:27:44

We have Chuck Collins in Cyprus, Texas, who is director for the

01:27:54

Center for Reformation Anglicanism. Yes. He has some kind words here.

01:28:01

He says, thank you Chris for having Roger Salter on your program. Roger is one of our best

01:28:08

Anglican minds and I look forward to this not knowing much about John Gill.

01:28:16

And we also have Donald Philip Veatch who is always eager to promote

01:28:24

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, especially when we have reformed Anglicans on the program.

01:28:32

He is the one who operates the Twiss House Facebook page, named after the prominent

01:28:42

English theologian in the 16th and 17th century, William Twiss. And he responded to Chuck by saying that's a fact, referring to you being one of the best

01:28:55

Anglican minds, scholarly and pastoral. So I just thought I'd pass on those two encouraging words to you by two fellow

01:29:05

Anglicans. Well, those comments are extremely generous and not deserved,

01:29:11

Chris, because I make a bungle of everything. It's like that minister

01:29:18

I heard of who used to, after a sermon, throw himself on the floor in the vestry and say, one day,

01:29:24

Lord, I'll preach a sermon. Well, I think you're your own worst enemy,

01:29:30

Roger, because nobody shares that opinion of you. So they do share, however, the opinion of Chuck Collins and Donald Philip Veitch, that you are one of the best

01:29:43

Anglican minds, and I would like to say one of the best Christian minds in general.

01:29:50

We have a listener in let's see here,

01:29:56

I was just looking at the question. Robert in Westchester County, New York.

01:30:03

Robert says, why do you think it is that so few are aware of John Gill today, other than those who are theologians and scholars, and so few are familiar with anything significant about Augustus Toplady other than his world -renowned, beloved hymn,

01:30:27

Rock of Ages? Yes. It's a tragedy concerning both men, that they're not as well -known.

01:30:36

Not that they deserve in themselves, but because of the worth of their teaching of the Gospel, and the way in which they magnify the majesty and mercy of the

01:30:47

Lord Jesus. I've been in touch with both Chuck and with Donald, and they are very fine men, very astute and able advocates of reformed

01:30:59

Anglicanism. So, I look to them as brothers and mentors, but there is somewhere, and I won't attempt to look it up in my current disarray on my desk press, but somewhere in Tom Isham's book, there is a comment about this, that neither men have the recognition and nor is there awareness of their wonderful ministries in our time, especially in the

01:31:32

Church. These men, they were weak and fallible and had their flaws.

01:31:40

I think every eminent Christian, their flaws shine through to indicate that anything they do have and impart is of grace alone.

01:31:51

But these two men, and I think there are attempts now, I think there's a new version, a new edition of The Cause of God and Truth by Gill coming out, which has convenient print and a nice approach to the attractiveness of a volume that won't turn people off squinting at the print, and I think that others are now working on making

01:32:20

Top Lady better known. But both men are superb, so edifying, so uplifting, and I think in their tenacity for the faith and their thoroughgoing convictions that something like their ministries are very necessary and would be very beneficial in our time, because I think we're too milk and watery, even in a

01:32:47

Reformed camp. We hold back because we're afraid of offending people.

01:32:53

They think Calvinism is a swear word that is something indicative of that we ought to avoid it.

01:32:59

We don't make an idol out of Calvin. Everything that he taught he derived from Augustine, the

01:33:05

Church Fathers, his fellow Reformers, especially Martin Busser and Peter Martyr.

01:33:12

These men, he was a second generation Reformer. He was taught by Luther and his predecessors.

01:33:19

But Calvinism has become a sort of curse word that people don't like to hear.

01:33:24

I think we should say, yes, I am a Calvinist. Amen. And of course he was primarily influenced by the

01:33:31

Holy Scriptures, which are inerrant. Yes. Yes. I mean, this is precious truth given to us by God.

01:33:40

It's everywhere evident in Scripture. We can't back off from it. And we know that human nature is offended by the truth of God and God's verdict upon us as sinners.

01:33:53

And this idea of having to rely on him totally, it makes people mad. I've heard people muttering in the corners of the church.

01:34:01

You mean we can't do anything? No. Bless God for it. He extends the mercy that he has towards us and we appeal to him for mercy on the basis of his invitation and our need.

01:34:13

Have I lost you, Chris? No, you have not. I'm still here,

01:34:19

Roger. Well, you see, I originally came against the doctrines of grace in a little group in Tasmania.

01:34:29

And we Tasmanians, as everybody knows, I'm not being jocular about this, we are little devils like everybody else.

01:34:37

And we're rather aggressive when it comes to contending for things we believe.

01:34:42

And I just don't think that like Luther and the others, and especially

01:34:48

Top Lady, we lay things clearly on the table and defend them without backing off, without taming our, you know, advocacy of this wonderful truth of God.

01:35:02

It's as if God is unwise in placing these doctrines in his revelation.

01:35:08

I have never heard an Arminian in a sermon or discussion even mention the word of election, because it means nothing to them, because their view of election, based on foreknowledge of the ability to choose

01:35:21

Christ in our own strength, negates the whole doctrine of election. It's self - election, not divine election.

01:35:30

I had a friend once who preached to a group of brethren in Tasmania, and he started to elucidate the doctrine of election.

01:35:37

You mean the actual denomination, the Plymouth Brethren, or one of the affiliated brethren sects?

01:35:45

Sorry, yes. When you said brethren, you weren't using that generically, like Christian brethren.

01:35:51

You were talking about the specific Plymouth Brethren. Yes, there's a

01:35:56

German group. This is the Plymouth Brethren. And all the men got up, put their hats on, and walked out.

01:36:02

You see, human nature, in its raw state, in its fallen state, does not have any affection for God, or desire for His holiness, or His ways.

01:36:14

And that comes as a shock to us when God reveals to us, I believe, after regeneration, just how alien and hostile our hearts are to Him.

01:36:24

We don't preach that. We preach a God of convenience, who fulfills our desires and wishes.

01:36:31

We don't have, as Jonathan Edwards says, any of the affections that drive us to God, and to holiness, and to the way of life that He implants within us through His grace.

01:36:44

And I don't think we should back down. It's the offense of the Gospel, not the offense of Calvinists, that is the cause of any trouble.

01:36:54

And I have good Arminian friends. We'll finish up laughing with each other. We'll disagree.

01:37:00

I know they're children of God. I know it's because people misperceive the doctrine of election that they rejected.

01:37:07

But if only they could get that balanced view from Scripture. Our need, our helplessness, our utter dependence upon the mercy of God, which must initiate even the first step, the first breath that takes us towards God.

01:37:25

Otherwise, it's an idol we're worshipping, a God of our own invention. I just, you know,

01:37:33

I anguish, if I can put it that way, that we tend to be too tame in our proclamation of the

01:37:42

Gospel. As Toplady said, when he preached predestination, he got conversions, and so have so many other in the ministry.

01:37:52

We back down, and we sort of criticize God for even equating us with this doctrine.

01:37:59

We hide it, and we shouldn't, because sinners need to be humbled. They need to know that they have no right of negotiation with God, that they have been offensive to Him all their lives.

01:38:12

They need to repent and cry to Him for mercy. Hallelujah. Couldn't have said it better myself, brother.

01:38:20

We are going to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question for Roger Salter, please send it in right away, because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:38:31

Our email address, again, is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:38:37

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away.

01:38:43

We'll be right back, right after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my long -time friend

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

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01:53:01

Word magazine advertising contract is quickly approaching their expiration date, which means

01:53:09

I have to renew their contract if I want to continue to receive the financial benefit for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio from this wonderful magazine publisher.

01:53:20

So if you haven't already, please subscribe to Ignited by the Word magazine at ignitedbytheword .org

01:53:27

ignitedbytheword .org and even if you have already subscribed, why not subscribe for some gift subscriptions to those that you know and love who have children of their own or grandchildren or nieces and nephews, etc.

01:53:44

Go to ignitedbytheword .org ignitedbytheword .org and subscribe today.

01:53:50

And always mention of course that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and God willing if enough of you do that they will renew their advertising contract with us.

01:54:00

They are one of our largest sponsors so we're really hoping that they do obviously renew that contract soon.

01:54:07

We are now back with Roger Salter and he is Rector of St.

01:54:13

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama and we have a question for you from Mike in Monroe, New York.

01:54:25

Brother Salter, Gil and Top Lady are two of my beloved briders of all time. These were men of great faith and both were above all devoted to truth, consequences notwithstanding.

01:54:38

Is the Lawson biography still available? I'm assuming he perhaps means

01:54:43

Stephen Lawson and he also has a follow -up question. Are the Anglicans here affiliated with the

01:54:51

Anglican Church in the United Kingdom? What was the first question Chris? Was there a biography?

01:54:57

Yeah, he wants to know if the Lawson biography is still available and I'm assuming he's talking about Top Lady.

01:55:05

I didn't know that Stephen Lawson wrote a biography of either one of them to my memory, but do you know anything about it?

01:55:13

I think the Lawson was, I've missed it for a moment, I think it's out of print.

01:55:20

It's probably available second -hand through a specialist explorer. No, the

01:55:28

Reformed Anglicans here, most of them would be associated with the Anglican Church in North America.

01:55:35

We're not recognized by England in this country if we are not in the Episcopal Church.

01:55:41

So, we're a little bit on the outside but that doesn't matter.

01:55:47

You don't want communion with them anyway, do you? Well, I just want to say quickly,

01:55:54

Chris, this is time. I'm not going to read anything more from Tom Isham's excellent book.

01:56:01

It is superb. Nobody should hesitate in buying it. It is really a tremendous biography of a great man of God.

01:56:11

So, I commend it heartily. I can't say just quickly perhaps that Top Lady took six weeks to write his book about Arminianism not being the teaching of the

01:56:24

Church of England. It was a response to a clergyman by the name of Noel who contested that the

01:56:31

Anglican Church was Arminian. Can I just tell a brief story humorously?

01:56:37

Yes. Dr. Gill's cravat is scarf. I heard this story long ago and I can't remember the source or as to how reliable it was but John Gill apparently loved to wear colorful cravats.

01:56:54

John Owen used to love bright clothing incidentally but one lady in his congregation did not think that this was proper for a minister of the gospel to read such a colorful item to wear such a colorful item.

01:57:08

So she asked Dr. Gill may I cut off your cravat? And Gill replied, certainly madam if you will vacate your tongue and allow me to cut that off.

01:57:19

Ha ha ha ha ha ha The implication being that her tongue was too loud.

01:57:26

Ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha Anyway that's how

01:57:32

I'll wind up Chris and thank you for your kindness today and your guidance.

01:57:38

Oh my pleasure You know the door of my studio is always open to you and I look forward to your frequent return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio In fact if you could hold on when we go off the air

01:57:50

I'd like to schedule our next interview. And I want to remind our listeners you can easily find more information about Roger Salter and St.

01:57:59

Matthew's Church of Birmingham Alabama at rogersalter .com rogersalter .com

01:58:06

and remember that Salter is spelled S -A -L -T -E -R not like the hymnal from the

01:58:14

Hebrew Scriptures It's Roger Salter without the P S -A -L -T -E -R dot com.

01:58:22

Thank you so much Roger. I want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to write in and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater

01:58:35

Savior than you are a sinner and keep in mind folks tomorrow we are going to be interviewing

01:58:44

Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker the co -hosts of the Just Thinking podcast and we're going to be talking about the upcoming

01:58:53

G3 conference in Washington D .C. and we are got a lot of other things that we're going to be talking about in regard to when denominations go wrong so you don't want to miss that broadcast