Debate Report

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Bart Ehrman, Textual Criticism, and the Claim That Inspiration Requires the Originals

Well, I'm not sure how long ago that was actually I think dr. Irwin's referring to the fact that When he was first contacted about doing debate He had objected to a discussion of Whether the New Testament could be inspired in light of textual variation then a year later When he was contacted again then he raised no objections to that until I'd say about a month prior to the debate and Then sometime in December as I recall We had some correspondence than a phone conversation.

He said look, I did that's not debatable subject. And I think we need to understand why it's not a debatable subject for dr. Irwin it's not a debatable subject because from his perspective theology is a is and and history and facts and scholarship separate things very very separate things and.

That came out very clearly in his debate with William Lane Craig where he says look history does this. Hey, if you want to talk about theology, that's fine. But it's very clear that from his perspective.

That is not really a scholarly issue. You know if you're a bunch of theologians you can sit around but don't let it touch history say and so I found it fascinating that he reacted to This you know, he makes this conclusion.

It can't be inspired because you don't know what the originals were. In other words, you don't possess the originals. The only way you can have inspiration is if you have a photocopy the originals or the originals themselves you can't Pass an inspired text down Through a handwritten transmission.

You can't pass it down in any other way. This is just the way that it is which of course is never the view. He had been taught as a quote-unquote Christian to begin with which is one of the reasons that a lot of Christians go.

Where did you get this idea? That's not what you were taught at Moody. Where did you get this idea that we had the originals? He knew didn't he admitted that he knew about the the textual variant of the woman taking adultery while it's still at Moody.

Before I went to Wheaton. So that's that's what makes it odd but you see it is the use of his material and he knows it's being used that way we're gonna hear that a little bit later on but He kept saying well, you know James keeps bringing this up it's not me as bringing this up and that's because when you make it a part of the introduction of your book and the conclusion of your book and You don't have a big disclaimer says.

Oh, by the way, this is just some, you know personal thoughts of mine. This isn't the result of everything you've read in this book, even though I'm putting it in the conclusion. You know, maybe some folks will listen to this debate now and they go well, you know Ermin doesn't say that's a scholarly result a scholarly result of examining the information he presents.

But just look at page 211 for yourself and you will see where he makes these statements. It's right there and Evidently, he expects people to make a distinction a differentiation Between the scholarly material he presents his book and the conclusions.

He draws from the scholarly material that he presented his book and evidently the scholarly conclusions Don't aren't really scholarly. They're just personal and I found that to be a very very very odd thing, especially in light of the fact That he kept saying I didn't bring this up and yet he brought it up in the opening statement with Dan Wallace.

He brought it up on the unbelievable radio program with Peter Williams he brought up to the infidel guy and It would seem to me that if it's in the opening and closing of your books and you bring it up and almost every talk.

You do it isn't really unfair of me to want to address that issue. Especially when it's the primary issue that people hear you raising and then apply Across college campuses and things like that. That was really interesting.

Travel Woes, TSA Humor, and Arriving Back in Phoenix

Well, welcome to the dividing line today back here in Phoenix, Arizona. Spend all day yesterday traveling literally get up at 6 o 'clock Eastern Time and go through the process of getting off the ship and Then the transportation to the airport and then of course you get there so early that you can't check your luggage.

Because you're there that many hours before you're allowed to check your luggage in and so you've got to drag your luggage around while you're trying to get something to eat and stuff like that and and sit around the Fort Lauderdale Airport and then.

And then you catch your flights and unfortunately I wasn't the same flight as my family was and so that was sort of fun and I had some you know. It's getting scary. There are certain TSA agents that really think that badge they're wearing makes them really bad.

I Got lectured I got scolded yesterday for bringing electronic equipment. Through the thing not I was never told I took my laptop out like I was supposed to but I had too many cables and A guy pulled out a jump drive.

What's this? It's a jump drive for a computer. Oh Didn't you know. Well the next time you go through our airport, you need to take all this stuff out. We won't tell you that but I was just sort of like you know, I Did you travel much way too much really.

Yeah, in fact, I took that very same bag with everything. It's in it right now through the screening at Sky Harbor International Airport and didn't even get flagged didn't get looked at that's not possible.

Yeah, actually, it's very possible, buddy. You know, it was it was just be be warned of the TSA at Fort Lauderdale. That's a little weird.

Did the fellow have a bullet in his pocket. Just one?

I Will probably now be arrested and putting in Guantanamo to for having dared to point out that some TSA guys I don't know. Forgive me, but if you're gonna work at an airport. Screening baggage. May I make a simple suggestion?

You might want to have a general knowledge of the things that business people carry while traveling such as Computer cables and remotes and Jump drives might be a good thing. Maybe the fellow was.

Familiar with all these things and he's sick and tired of having to go through all you business people. You need to change your ways and I'll get you one by one.

Don't take those hard drives with you with your extra video material in it. Ah, you know, it was anyway, so but we we got through eventually and Got it all taken care of and got home eventually. Tired and I don't know.

I just feel icky after long Transcontinental airline flights just sort of feel like me and I was stuck on an airline that I normally do not fly I do not fly like flying in an MD 80. I don't like MD 80s.

They're loud as can be and I was stuck next to the at least in this MD 80. It wasn't the bathroom in the back, but you know how in the back you lose one side of the aisle. And it's only on the other side.

Well, I was around the aisle. I hate aisle seats in the first place. I was stuck in aisle seats all the way back and I was right next to basically the back door where they bring the stuff in where the galley is.

That door had a high pitched whistle when we were at speed. It was like hi I'm the migraine door. But we got back we we got back in one in one in one piece thankfully and that was that was a good thing.

So anyways, we're back here and Obviously Finding the responses to the to the debate quite interesting. I I saw a I'm sorry Basam Zawadi seems like a nice guy, but a pathetic article from Basam Zawadi on the issue of the ermine debate.

Evidently, he he thinks it's just hypocritical of me. To point out that it's just a little bit weird some of the stuff that the Bart Ehrman said he Doesn't he I'm also going to enjoy documenting his error about the error Ermin error, it's the same thing about the the early papyri because I'm sorry, but some of these guys just should not try to play games this stuff as Basam has but He feels like it's somehow odd or something.

That I found it odd that the chair of the Department of Religion But the parent chair of the Department of Religious Studies at UNC Chapel Hill Said that he really doesn't know anything about Islam those knows very little about Islam and nothing about the Quran.

I Did find that strange. Let's let's listen to what what he said about that. Here is the first statement that he made and this was in the cross-examination period.

They can't possibly come from God. Then I'm not drawing a theological conclusion, and I don't really appreciate you likening me to.

To a Muslim now. Let me stop right here. I was simply asking him to be consistent and he knew and He knows the only consistent answer. He could give this question if. And and what is what is his point of view?

Let me play his here's his point of view once again. He stated this over and over again debate. Let's listen to what he says.

So why do you think he inspired the words in the first place. That's my point of view.

Okay, there's his point of view if you do not have a photocopy of the original if there is a textual history to your document. Then it can't be inspired. That's what he just said isn't it sounds like what he said so he said in his books.

We said in other talks. He may differentiate that from historical scholarship, but that's that's what he said, so if you're consistent and If there are textual variants in the Quran and in its manuscript history.

It follows that we could write misquoting Muhammad. Right he agreed about about Suetonius he agreed about Tacitus. But he won't say it about the Quran. Why? Is there some difference now? He's being politically correct.

He's the chair of the department. He doesn't want a brouhaha back there. He's gonna avoid it like the plague. It's okay to tell Christians to be open-minded about their whole religion being wrong. That's all right.

But you dare not mention the Muslims. That's that's why he's doing that so so here's here's in fact. Now No one that I know of has any possible understanding. No one's been able to suggest to me how he came up with the idea that I was liking likening him to a Muslim.

Nobody knows. I don't know I Was just staring at him going what? But remember there over and over again he misrepresented what I had said in my presentation anyways. Evidently I was going too fast for him or something.

I don't know I was seriously It said when you said they're over 200 manuscripts. I said I said 120. Oh well. And I'm putting it's up on the screen. You know now. I know he's having to take notes and Obviously if he had bothered to actually you know do some study before the debate.

I Have an entire Presentation on YouTube that would have gone through all this if he just listened to it once a lot of the Misrepresentations wouldn't have been there, so you know that's what happens liberals Do not believe that we have anything meaningful to say whatsoever.

So they don't study for debates. They don't prepare for debates because they don't feel like they need to that. How many times has that been proven now. Spong. Well Stravinskis isn't a liberal, but he certainly exemplified the exact same attitude.

People who believe we believe just don't have anything meaningful to say. You don't have to study what they have to say you don't Have to do any type of preparation. So you know that's just that's just how it is so I don't have a clue Why he thinks I was likening him to a Muslim.

I really don't so let's let's listen to that again.

And I don't really appreciate you likening me to to a Muslim. I didn't. Both in your speech and just now I'm not making any stand about the Quran. I don't know anything about the Quran. I'm simply making a very basic point, and I'm not making this as a normative point for everybody.

I'm saying for me. It doesn't make sense to say that God inspired the words because he wanted us to have his words. If he didn't give us his words, we don't have his word because the originals don't exist.

So he makes that presentation everybody to Evangelicals and they need to consider these things they need to be able to be willing to change their viewpoint. But it's actually just for me and So I'm not gonna apply this to Muslims.

If you can make heads or tails out of that if you can have if you can figure out. How even asking the question that I asked likens him to a Muslim, please let me know because I haven't a clue.

I'm having a Dan Brown flashback here. It's just fiction. It's just my truth I'm writing about that I want everybody else to.

Go along with me Dan Brown just wanted that survey else would pay for his book. But and then then in his closing statement, he went back to this this issue and here's here's what he said then. And I'm sorry So if people come to logical conclusions based upon what he writes He's not accountable for that that's what he just said, isn't it?

That's all I could figure out. I have no responsibility here whatsoever. That's base. I I don't have any other way of understanding that I've asked him a logical question. It has a logical conclusion.

He refuses to go there because he's being politically, correct he's protecting his position at a institution of higher learning and Boy, sometimes that is a major problem in our society today. Is it not?

Let's be politically correct. But there you just heard the head of the Department of Religious Studies say I don't know anything about the Quran and I know almost Nothing about Islam. I did it was almost nothing or very little very little.

I think it's very little about Islam I know very little about Islam. Well, that seems really weird to me. I I don't know about you, but one of the first things That caught my attention when I started even having exposure to Islam was okay.

Here's this book now, I'm really interested in textual critical studies and here is a book that has been passed down In in a written format, so would it not follow that one of the first questions that would cross your mind.

Especially you have to know That there are not multiple Versions of the Quran they're claiming this is this is it we have Uthman's, you know Version of the Quran here in essence. So wouldn't the logical question be I wonder I wonder what its textual history is like.

Has he not encountered discussions of these things and all his broad scholarly reading. I Don't know. Yeah, it struck me as really really really I Don't buy it. I think it's pure political correctness.

The answer to the question was very obvious and he just didn't want to go there and the whole reason didn't want to go There is real simple. It was political correctness. It was I don't I don't want to say anything about Islam I'm only gonna say stuff about Christianity and that's that's the problem there.

It's seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number. I know that many of you have now listened to the audio of the debate and Let me before I say anything more about the debate mention this I would highly highly encourage Anyone who hears merely the audio of the debate to wait for the production of the DVD and To just just make a commitment that you're going to pick it up a couple reasons.

First of all, it obviously helps us and We were not the ones who produced the DVD the DVD is going to be produced by American Vision and They're the ones that brought the cameraman down and they're the ones I'm gonna be sending my keynote presentation to us.

They can insert it in there. So it'll be nice and pretty and so on so forth a lot of work a lot of times could go into it. And therefore I I really think this would be something would be very useful to people something you can give to to folks and things like that, so Even if you've heard the debate on the audio and my high high-end recommendation here is to Plan on picking up the DVD.

I think it will be very very useful along those lines. And I don't want to bring the whole program down or like that, but I do feel like I need to make a comment. It seems that there are lots of people especially young guys and even young reformed guys Who have the idea that Everything that is done about the faith should be free and If you do a debate, you should just give it away free.

If you write a book, you should just give it away free. You know in a perfect world that would be wonderful, you know if if this ministry had Was just a ministry of a very well-off church or something like that.

You know, we might be able to do something like that. But the fact the matter is that we have to ask a small amount to you know to keep the lights on to keep the ministry going and when we distribute these these items and It's a little discouraging to me to be honest with you given that what we're asking for this mp3 is what is You you can't go to Arby's For lunch for this a little bit amount I think you might still here be able to get a quarter pound or cheese meal as long as you don't want to size it.

Or biggest size it or gigantic size it whatever it is I think you might still be able to get a quarter amount of cheese fries and a coke. For for just a little bit less than what we're asking for this mp3.

So when people like buy the mp3 and then just start freely giving it out to people. Basically what you're saying is I don't think your work is worth a cheeseburger and fries. And I'm going to steal this and I'm going to in essence very loudly say to you stop doing this.

Don't do this anymore. Don't don't do debates at Bart Ehrman and don't do debates John Dominic Rossman and don't do debates John Shelby's one. Because I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that you can't.

Now if those same people want to come to us and say look Tell you what, I want this debate to be free. So here's my credit card and Ehrman's flight your flight hotels food the videotaping the rental for the for the room and Ehrman speaking fee which he got and It's it's multiple times more than anything.

I've ever received in my life for speaking anywhere I'm gonna pay for all that. That's if everybody starts doing that. Then that's great. But I just have to ask the very simple question. How are we supposed to do this?

How are we supposed to pay for all that stuff when you can't even recover six bucks? For a recording. I don't understand it. So it's very discouraging for me to find people, you know, throwing this stuff up on YouTube and You know just passing it around and and then even worse.

People in even in the chat channel saying We shouldn't have to pay anything for this. It's saying to me. We we don't want you to continue doing this because we're just not gonna we're not gonna help you with it see and That it's it's too much to ask to do a little.

I mean if we are asking 89 .95 for an mp3. Okay, I could understand that I can understand somebody going. Whoa, dude, but we don't do that. So it just strikes me that If you are, you know, one of those folks that that is out there saying hey, I you know I'm just so poor and we give stuff for you away all the time.

Okay, and if someone really just couldn't afford six bucks, I have to wonder how do you afford something to play the mp3 on the first? place. You know your your ISP connection is probably more than that.

I mean, I mean really. But I mean if someone is just absolutely positively destitute they just are barely eating but they have to know something about Bart Ehrman. We'll get him. We'll get him the debate somehow.

I mean. But that's honestly, let's be honest. That's not that's not the situation the situation is people feel like what we do should just be you know, just just throw it out there and and Just trust the Lord.

Well, that sounds wonderful. Until Bart Ehrman shows up at the front desk at the hotel and wants his room and I can't walk up to the guy at The front desk and say we just trust the Lord. He's not gonna be staying there that night.

Okay, that's just all there is to it it involves a sort of ignoring the fact that the Lord uses means and his people are the means and. So it's been a little just disappointing to find out there have been people that are just been going.

Way too much man, you know, you can spend hundreds of hours preparing for that stuff. That's what I ain't gonna give you as much as a cheeseburger and a Coke for for what you done there, so What can I say that that's been a little bit of a discouragement, but hopefully I have now made those of you who've been doing that feel so tremendously guilty for doing so that that you'll stop it and We won't see more stuff popping up on YouTube and things like that because it's just sort of silly so anyway That's neither here nor there now.

Hopefully that will be that will be taken care of some of the things that I did want to point out that I Think were extremely important about the debate that I didn't talk about necessarily from the ship and it was a little difficult to do that dividing.

To stick the laptop in the window and stick the modem little thing. Yeah, it's sort of like remember the rabbit ears. Okay, right there freeze, you know I want one one leg in the air and that type of thing to try to get the strongest signal you could but uh, I Really think that it's extremely important and by the way Someone's calling right now, but eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Feel free to comment. I know we've Had a lot of people who have picked up the mp3 and who have heard the debate now and and So if you have some questions you want to comment on it now, it's time to do it eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

One of the things that for me I think people really need to start understanding is The the major movement away from The historical understanding of what textual criticism is to the the What what Bart Ehrman's doing and what Eldon EPP is doing and what DC Parker is doing?

You you sort of almost need to start asking somebody a question So that you can make a differentiation between where people are coming from. Do you believe that the primary function of textual criticism is to Establish and verify the original text of the ancient document in this case New Testament or do you believe its primary function is to Give you a window into the ancient world To where you can each manuscript has a story to tell and is your focus away from the original and on to exegeting variants or Are you one of those folks that's doing this so that We can know what the New Testament text was all about and we can have accurate information about What where the variations are and and so on so forth, but the original is the focus Dr. Ehrman made it very very clear.

That's well modern scholars Almost everybody really working in the field except for some evangelicals aren't even worried about the original anymore. Well, yeah, he's right and that's what we need to recognize is that these folks really aren't working for us anymore.

They may be an institution some of them might be in institutions that were bought and paid for and endowed by believers. But they'll be more than happy to use that money to you know undercut the a Caller just called in donating donating ten downloads for people who can't afford them.

So there you go if if you're one of those because I've heard some of these guys say look I'm a college student, man. I can't afford it. Okay pick up a phone dividing line telethon begins now.

For Jerry's kids. We'll call them parts kids. This this fell is serious, so we were gonna have ten free downloads available.

So if you are are on the brink of of economic collapse like the rest of the world basically then give us a call and talk to rich and We'll we'll get your free download. There you go, so. No excuses now whatsoever.

We'll we'll take care of it, and thank you very much. It's nice to have folks. For Bart's kids yeah for Doc's kids Bart's. I don't know what we'll call him, but we'll we'll call them something. I appreciate that.

So anyways back to the point before we take our break the radical skepticism of this this perspective Was exposed not only the radical skepticism that that in essence, and that's why I asked the question about Enormous ginormous, and now people are sending me cards that have ginormous in it and stuff like that.

Which I know is not a word, but it probably is by now in fact I think someone did stick it in the Oxford English Dictionary. I think it is there now. Well.

Wouldn't that be related to the gigabyte gig enormous ginormous?

Yeah, so it probably is a real-world word now even though mutato will not appreciate that at all because he doesn't feel that should Be a real word, but anyway it's a it ended up in the debate so that makes it a real world.

We're now, but the point is that that's why I was asking us the the. At least he was consistent in saying yeah, we don't know what any of those guys back there originally said. And then I point out and yet when you cite them you don't say that.

Well everybody knows I'm citing the manuscript tradition well do it does everybody know that. Have you explained that when you quote Suetonius and use Suetonius as a source do you say now we really haven't we don't have a clue.

What's the Tony is actually wrote? Because there's this ginormous Distance between what he what he wrote and and what the first manuscript evidence. But that's what they have to do we have to push people to say are you really ready to abandon all of history?

Are you really really willing to abandon everything we've pretended to know? About history from these valuable historical sources and will you explain? How you can have a consistent manuscript tradition if in fact you have this major kind of corruption where you've got?

Suetonius saying X and not X and and This this these massive changes, which just aren't there that came out, and that was very very important. I think people need to understand that we need to start pressing that and I'll continue with the other things that came out in the debate and your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three.

Three four one we'll be right back.

Book Promotion, Justification by Faith, and Ministry Support

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Post-Debate Updates, Upcoming Programs, and Final Thoughts on Textual Criticism

Back here in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona, it's going to be getting up into the low 70s this week. I was I was on the flight back. I was listening to folks. Like before we take off they're calling home.

They're going well, so I storm. I mean, is there where's the ice right now? How much is there? Is there snow on the ground? Just sitting going. I bet they're not going to Phoenix. They're in Fort Lauderdale going to Dallas.

So yeah, that's that was that was the case, but no, no, no ice here. It is it is it's very very very nice here and so anyway. We are talking about the Bart Ehrman debate and taking your phone calls. I guess it's cuz it's Tuesday morning I don't know sometimes Tuesdays, you know, you get lots of folks to maybe I thought The cruise is gonna be longer than it was or something like that.

It was pretty short one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I actually I've got an email I need to respond to before I get out of here from From David Wheaton. He wants to have me on his program and I think that Chris Arntzen wants to be on the program to talk about the urban debate as well.

So I need to get hold of them and let them know that I'd be very very happy to do those programs because they reach a group of people that we do not so That will be very good. And I did also get my my version of Bible works 8 I need to get installed so I can start telling folks about it.

And new new things and changes and things like that. So we'll try to get around to that as well also my sincere thanks to folks for Giving me an encouragement to press forward with writing the book on these subjects and much wider than just these subjects.

Because one of the issues, you know, one of the things I mentioned in the blog article was I studied a much wider variety of Topics I was prepared for for dr. Ehrman to go a number of different directions pretty much any direction that he had gone in his New Testament class synoptic issues allegations of contradiction.

I I Thought about pointing out some of the some of the whoopses I found in his book, but I didn't do that. I I I hope he fixes it. He is doing another edition the orthodox corruption of scripture so I hope he fixed some of the some of the problems in there, but Just small things, but I was prepared to deal with a pretty wide variety of things.

So what I had not expected was to be dealing with the current leading French textual critical scholars that was. But that actually leads me to the next next point that I had on my list here. And that was The what we had seen in the infidel guy discussion Really came out again and he seems to do this with with people that he feels he can do this with.

And evidently felt that that was the best way to go here. And that is the argument from authority. I'm Bart Ehrman for crying out loud. I've been doing this forever. Well, he hasn't been doing it forever.

He's not that old. And there have been people who've been doing it just as long if not longer than he him and but it's the argument from authority. I'm a part of this small cadre of folks and I I sip lattes at SPL with these people and that is Why you should believe what I have to say.

I'm I'm in charge. I'm large and in charge and and therefore, you know here's the argument from authority and it and it's just just believe me because I say it and my my view is look if you really know your field and if you really know the facts in your field and if you actually Are confident enough to listen to what the other side's saying and to hear them accurately.

You don't need to use the argument from authority. You don't need to go there you can say well here are the actual facts and that's why I was really lost when He couldn't seem to see what I was saying.

And I think this goes to another point that when you when you dwell only in one area and You don't get out in essence and do other things and you don't have to communicate to a wide variety of audiences.

I Just don't understand why? Dr. Ehrman could not understand The argument that was presenting concerning how very much alike the manuscript tradition is. How good it is he's so focused on variance he's so focused on differences that he just doesn't even seem to want to admit the existence of the fact that if you take the most Byzantine manuscript you have and then you take the most Alexandrian manuscript you have and you apply the same rules of exegesis and Interpretation to the two of them.

You're not going to come up with different religions. You don't have part of the manuscript tradition. Saying that that Jesus Was an Asian guy who lived in the 14th century. Who was into painting? Okay, and that's what some people think when you're saying well, we don't know what it originally said.