Debate Report

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James white Well, I'm not sure how long ago that was actually
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I think dr. Ehrman's referring to the fact that When he was first contacted about doing a debate he had objected to a discussion of Whether the
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New Testament could be inspired in light of textual variation then a year later When he was contacted again then he raised no objections to that until I'd say about a month prior to the debate and Then sometime in December as I recall
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We had some correspondence than a phone a conversation He said look I did that's not debatable subject
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And I think we need to understand why it's not a debatable subject for dr. Ehrman it's not a debatable subject because from his perspective theology is a is and and history and facts and scholarship separate things very very separate things and That came out very clearly in his debate with William Lane Craig where he says look history does this
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Hey, if you want to talk about theology, that's fine. But it's very clear that from his perspective. That is not really a scholarly issue
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You know if you're a bunch of theologians you can sit around but don't let it touch history say and so I found it fascinating that he reacted to This you know he makes this conclusion.
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It can't be inspired because you don't know what the originals were In other words you don't possess the originals the only way you can have inspiration is if you have a photocopy the originals or the originals themselves you can't pass an inspired text down Through a handwritten transmission you can't pass it down in any other way
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This is just the way that it is which of course is never the view he had been taught as a quote -unquote Christian to begin
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With which is one of the reasons a lot of Christians go Where did you get this idea?
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That's not what you were taught at Moody Where did you get this idea that we had the originals he knew didn't he admitted that he knew about the
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Textual variant of the woman taken adultery while it's still at Moody before I went to Wheaton So that's that's what makes it odd but you see it is the use of his material and he knows it's being used that way we're gonna hear that a little bit later on but He kept saying well, you know
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James keeps bringing this up it's not me as bringing this up and that's because when you make it a part of the introduction of your book and the
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Conclusion of your book, and you don't have a big disclaimer says oh by the way This is just some, you know personal thoughts of mine
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This isn't the result of everything you've read in this book, even though I'm putting it in the conclusion
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You know, maybe some folks will listen to this debate now and they go well, you know Ermin doesn't say that's a scholarly result a scholarly result of examining the information he presents
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But just look at page 211 for yourself and you will see where he makes these statements.
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It's right there and Evidently he expects people to make a distinction a differentiation
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Between the scholarly material he presents his book and the conclusions He draws from the scholarly material that he presented his book and evidently the scholarly conclusions
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Aren't really scholarly. They're just personal and I found that to be a very very very odd thing, especially in light of the fact
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That he kept saying I didn't bring this up and yet he brought it up in the opening statement with Dan Wallace he brought it up on the unbelievable radio program with Peter Williams, he brought up to the infidel guy and It would seem to me that if it's in the opening and closing of your books and you bring it up in almost every talk
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You do it isn't really unfair of me to want to address that issue Especially when it's the primary issue that people hear you raising and then apply
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Across college campuses and things like that. That was really interesting. Well, welcome to the dividing line today back here in Phoenix, Arizona Spend all day yesterday traveling literally get up at six o 'clock
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Eastern Time and go through the process of getting off the ship and Then the transportation to the airport and then of course you get there so early that you can't check your luggage
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Because you're there that many hours before you're allowed to check your luggage in and so you've got to drag your luggage around while you're trying to get something to eat and stuff like that and and sit around the
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Fort Lauderdale Airport and then You catch your flights And unfortunately,
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I wasn't the same flight as my family was and so that was sort of fun And I had some you know, um, it's getting scary
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There are certain TSA agents that really think that badge they're wearing makes them really bad.
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I Got lectured I got scolded yesterday for bringing electronic equipment
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Through the thing not I was never told I took my laptop out like I was supposed to but I had too many cables and A guy pulled out a jump drive.
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What's this? It's a jump drive for a computer. Oh Didn't you know
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Well the next time you go through our airport you need to take all this stuff out. We won't tell you that but I was just sort of like you know,
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I Did you travel much way too much really? Yeah, in fact,
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I took that very same bag with everything It's in it right now through the screening at Sky Harbor International Airport and didn't even get flagged didn't get looked at that's not possible
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Yeah, actually, it's very possible, buddy You know, it was it was just be be warned of the
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TSA at Fort Lauderdale. That's a little weird Did the fellow have a bullet in his pocket just one?
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I Will probably now be arrested and putting in Guantanamo too for having dared to point out that some
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TSA guys I don't know forgive me, but if you're gonna work at an airport Screening baggage may
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I make a simple suggestion? You might want to have a general knowledge of the things that business people carry while traveling such as Computer cables and remotes and Jump drives might be a good thing.
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Maybe the fellow was Familiar with all these things and he's sick and tired of having to go through all you business people
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You need to change your ways and I'll get you one by one Don't take those hard drives with you with your extra video material in it.
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Ah, you know, it was anyway, so but we we got through eventually and Got it all taken care of and got home eventually
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Tired and I don't know. I just feel icky after long Transcontinental airline flights just sort of feel like me and I was stuck on an airline that I normally do not fly
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I do not fly like flying in an MD 80 I don't like MD 80s They're loud as can be and I was stuck next to the at least in this
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MD 80 It wasn't the bathroom in the back But you know how in the back you lose one side of the aisle and it's only on the other side
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Well, I was around the aisle. I hate aisle seats in the first place I was stuck in aisle seats all the way back and I was right next to basically the back door where they bring the stuff in where the galley is
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That door had a high pitched whistle when we were at speed.
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It was like hi I'm the migraine door But we got back we we got back in one in one in one piece thankfully and that was that was a good thing so anyways, we're back here and Obviously Finding the responses to the to the debate quite interesting
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I I saw a I'm sorry, but some Zawadi seems like a nice guy, but a pathetic article from some
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Zawadi on the issue of the Ehrman debate Evidently, he he thinks it's just hypocritical of me
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To point out that it's just a little bit weird some of the stuff that the Bart Ehrman said he
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Doesn't he I'm also going to enjoy documenting his error about the error
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Ehrman error it's the same thing about the the early papyri because I'm sorry, but some of these guys just should not try to play games this stuff as Bassam has but He feels like it's somehow odd or something
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That I found it odd that the chair of the Department of Religion The parent chair of the
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Department of Religious Studies at UNC Chapel Hill Said that he really doesn't know anything about Islam those knows very little about Islam and nothing about the
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Quran. I Did find that strange. Let's let's listen to what what he said about that Here is the first statement that he made and this was in the cross -examination period
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And I don't really appreciate you likening me to To a Muslim now, let me stop right here.
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I was simply asking him to be consistent and he knew and He knows the only consistent answer.
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He could give this question if And and what is what is his point of view? Let me play his here's his point of view
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Once again, he stayed this over and over again debate. Let's listen to what he says So why do you think he inspired the words in the first place that's my point of view
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Okay, there's his point of view if you do not have a photocopy of the original if there is a textual history to your document
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Then it can't be inspired. That's what he just said, isn't it? Sounds like what he said, so he said in his books we said in other talks
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He may differentiate that from historical Scholarship, but that's that's what he said.
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So if you're consistent and If there are textual variants in the
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Quran and in its manuscript history It follows that we could write misquoting
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Muhammad Right. He agreed about about Suetonius. He agreed about Tacitus But he won't say it about the
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Quran. Why is there some difference now? He's being politically correct
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He's the chair of the department. He doesn't want a brouhaha back there. He's gonna avoid it like the plague
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It's okay to tell Christians to be open -minded about their whole religion being wrong.
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That's all right But you dare not mention that's the Muslims. That's that's why he's doing that.
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So so here's here's in fact Now no one that I know of has any possible understanding
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No one's been able to suggest to me how he came up with the idea that I was liking likening him to a
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Muslim Nobody knows. I don't know. I Was just staring at him going what? But remember there over and over again he misrepresented what
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I had said in my presentation Anyways, evidently I was going too fast for him or something. I don't know I mean seriously, it said when you said they're over 200 manuscripts.
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I said I said 120. Oh, well And I'm putting it's up on the screen, you know now
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I know he's having to take notes and Obviously if he had bothered to actually, you know do some study before the debate
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I Have an entire Presentation on YouTube that would have gone through all this if he just listened to it once a lot of the misrepresentations
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Wouldn't have been there. So, you know, that's what happens liberals. Do not believe that we have anything meaningful to say whatsoever
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So they don't study for debates They don't prepare for debates because they don't feel like they need to that. How many times has that been proven now?
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spong Well Stravinsky's isn't a liberal but he certainly exemplified the exact same attitude
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People who believe we believe just don't have anything meaningful to say you don't have to study what they have to say You don't have to do any type of preparation
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So, you know, that's just that's just how it is. So I don't have a clue Why he thinks
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I was likening him to a Muslim, I really don't so let's let's listen to that again Both in your speech and just now
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I'm not making any stand about the Quran. I don't know anything about the Quran I'm simply making a very basic point and I'm not making this as a normative point for everybody
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I'm saying for me It doesn't make sense to say that God inspired the words because he wanted us to have his words
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If he didn't give us his words, we don't have his word because the originals don't exist so he makes that presentation everybody to Evangelicals and they need to consider these things.
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They need to be able to be willing to change their viewpoint but it's actually just for me and So I'm not gonna apply this to Muslims If you can make heads or tails out of that if you can have if you can figure out
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How even asking the question that I asked likens him to a Muslim, please let me know because I haven't a clue
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I'm having a Dan Brown flashback here. It's just fiction It's just my truth
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I'm writing about that. I want everybody else to go along with me
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Dan Brown just wanted that so everybody else would pay for his book But and then then in his closing statement, he went back to this this issue and here's here's what he said then
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I don't know anything about the Quran. I don't know very much at all about Islam I'm not connected with Muslim apologists that he's in contact with I do know that they use my work
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And I'm sorry that People don't appreciate the fact that they they use my work.
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It's not really my fault. I haven't given my work to anybody I simply write the books and let people read the books
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So if people come to logical conclusions based upon what he writes
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He's not accountable for that that's what he just said, isn't it? That's all I could figure out
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I have no responsibility here whatsoever That's base, I I don't have any other way of understanding that I've asked him a logical question.
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It has a logical conclusion He refuses to go there because he's being politically correct. He's protecting his position at a institution of higher learning and Boy, sometimes that is a major problem in our society today.
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Is it not? Let's be politically correct But there you just heard the head of the Department of Religious Studies say
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I don't know anything about the Quran and I know almost Nothing about Islam. It was almost nothing or very little very little.
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I think it's very little about Islam I know very little about Islam. Well, that seems really weird to me. I I don't know about you, but one of the first things
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That caught my attention when I started even having exposure to Islam was okay
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Here's this book now, I'm really interested in textual critical studies and here is a book that has been passed down In in a written format, so would it not follow that one of the first questions that would cross your mind
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Especially you have to know That there are not multiple
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Versions of the Quran they're claiming this is this is it we have
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Uthman's, you know Version of the Quran here in essence So wouldn't the logical question be
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I wonder I wonder what its textual history is like Has he not encountered discussions of these things and all his broad scholarly reading?
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I Don't know. It struck me as Really really really
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I don't buy it. I think it's pure political correctness The answer to the question was very obvious and he just didn't want to go there and the whole reason didn't want to go
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There is real simple. It was political correctness. It was I don't I don't want to say anything about Islam I'm only gonna say stuff about Christianity and that's that's the problem there
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It's seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number I know that many of you have now listened to the audio of the debate and Let me before I say anything more about the debate mention this
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I would highly highly encourage Anyone who hears merely the audio of the debate to wait for the production of the
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DVD and To just just make a commitment that you're going to pick it up a couple reasons.
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First of all, it obviously helps us and We were not the ones who produced the
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DVD the DVD is going to be produced by American Vision and They're the ones that brought the cameraman down and they're the ones
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I'm gonna be sending my keynote presentation to as they can insert it in there so it'll be nice and pretty and so on so forth a lot of work a lot of times could go into It and therefore
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I I really think this would be something would be very useful to people something you can give to to folks and things like that, so Even if you've heard the debate on the audio and my high high -end recommendation here is to Plan on picking up the
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DVD. I think it will be very very useful along those lines And I don't want to bring the whole program down or like that, but I do feel like I need to make a comment
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It seems that there are lots of people especially young guys and even young reformed guys
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Who have the idea that Everything that is done about the faith should be free and If you do a debate, you should just give it away free if you write a book.
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You should just give it away free You know in a perfect world that would be wonderful, you know if if this ministry had
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Was just a ministry of a very well -off church or something like that. You know, we might be able to do something like that But the fact the matter is that we have to ask a small amount to You know to keep the lights on to keep the ministry going and when we distribute these these items and It's a little discouraging to me to be honest with you given that what we're asking for this mp3 is
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What is? You you can't go to Arby's for lunch
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For this a little bit amount I think you might still here be able to get a quarter pound or cheese meal as long as you know
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What a size it or bigger size it or gigantic size it whatever it is I think you might still be able to get a quarter amount of cheese fries and a coke
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For for just a little bit less than what we're asking for this mp3 So when people like buy the mp3 and then just start freely giving it out to people
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Basically, what you're saying is I don't think your work is worth a cheeseburger and fries And I'm going to steal this and I'm going to in essence very loudly say to you stop doing this
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Don't do this anymore Don't don't do debates at Bart Ehrman and don't do debates John Dominic Rossman and don't do debates
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John Shelby's one Because I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that you can't Now if those same people want to come to us and say look
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Tell you what. I want this debate to be free. So here's my credit card and Ehrman's flight your flight hotels food the videotaping the rental for the for the room and Ehrman speaking fee which he got and It's it's multiple times more than anything.
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I've ever received in my life for speaking anywhere I'm gonna pay for all that.
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That's if everybody starts doing that Then that's great, but I just have to ask the very simple question.
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How are we supposed to do this? How are we supposed to pay for all that stuff when you can't even recover six bucks?
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For a recording. I don't understand it. So it's very discouraging for me to find people, you know, throwing this stuff up on YouTube and You know just passing it around and and then even worse people in even in the chat channel saying
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We shouldn't have to pay anything for this It's saying to me we we don't want you to continue doing this because we're just not gonna we're not gonna help you with it see and That it's it's too much to ask to do a little bit.
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I mean if we were asking 89 95 for an mp3 Okay, I could understand that I could understand somebody going.
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Whoa, dude, but we don't do that So it just strikes me that if you are
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You know one of those folks that that is out there saying hey, I you know I'm just so poor and we give stuff for you away all the time
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Okay, and if someone really just couldn't afford six bucks. I have to wonder How do you afford something to play the mp3 on in the first place?
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You know your your ISP connection is probably more than that. I mean, I mean really
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But I mean if someone is just absolutely positively destitute They just are barely eating but they have to know something about Bart Ehrman.
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We'll get him. We'll get him the debate somehow I mean, but that's honestly, let's be honest.
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That's not that's not the situation The situation is people feel like what we do should just be you know
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Just just throw it out there and and just trust the Lord Well, that sounds wonderful until Bart Ehrman shows up at the front desk at the hotel and wants his room and I can't walk up to the guy at The front desk and say well we just trust the
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Lord He's not gonna be staying there that night Okay, that's just all there is to it it involves a sort of ignoring the fact that the
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Lord uses means and his people are the means and So it's been a little just disappointing to find out there have been people that are just been going
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Well, that's just way too much man. You know, you can spend hundreds of hours preparing for that stuff
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That's what I ain't gonna give you as much as a cheeseburger to cook for for what you've done there, so What can
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I say that that's been a little bit of a discouragement, but hopefully I have now made those of you who've been doing that feel so tremendously guilty for doing so that that you'll stop it and We won't see more stuff popping up on YouTube and things like that because it's just sort of silly.
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So anyway That's neither here nor there now Hopefully that will be that will be taken care of some of the things that I did want to point out that I Think were extremely important about the debate that I didn't talk about necessarily
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From the ship and it was a little difficult to do that dividing line To stick the laptop in the window and stick the modem little thing.
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Yeah, it's sort of like remember the rabbit ears Okay, right there freeze, you know one one one leg in the air and that type of thing
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Try to get the strongest signal you could but I Really think that it's extremely important and by the way
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Someone's calling right now, but eight seven seven seven five three three three four one feel free to comment.
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I know we've had a lot of people who have picked up the mp3 and who have heard the debate now and So if you have some questions you want to comment on it now, it's time to do it eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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One of the things that for me I think people really need to start understanding is Is The the major movement away from the historical understanding of what textual criticism is to The the what what
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Bart Ehrman's doing and what Eldon Epp is doing and what DC Parker is doing You you sort of almost need to start asking somebody a question
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So that you can make a differentiation between where people are coming from. Do you believe that?
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The primary function of textual criticism is to establish and verify the original text of the ancient document in this case
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New Testament or do you believe its primary function is to Give you a window into the ancient world
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To where you can each manuscript has a story to tell and Is your focus away from the original and on to exegeting variants or Are you one of those folks that's doing this so that?
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We can know what the New Testament text was all about and we can have accurate information about What where the variations are and and so on so forth, but the original is the focus
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Dr. Ehrman made it very very clear that well modern scholars Almost everybody really working in the field except for some evangelicals aren't even worried about the original anymore
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Well, yeah, he's right and that's what we need to recognize is that these folks really aren't working for us anymore
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They may be an institution some of them might be in institutions that were bought and paid for and endowed by believers
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But they'll be more than happy to use that money to you know undercut the a
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Caller just called in donating donating 10 downloads for people who can't afford them So there you go if if you're one of those because I've heard some of these guys say look
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I'm a college student man. I can't afford it. Okay pick up a phone dividing line telethon begins now for Jerry's kids
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We'll call them parts kids this this fell is serious, so we were gonna have 10 free downloads available so if you are are on the brink of economic collapse like the rest of the world basically then give us a call and talk to rich and We'll we'll get your free download.
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There you go, so No excuses now whatsoever We'll we'll take care of it, and thank you very much.
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It's nice to have folks For Bart's kids yeah for Doc's kids
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Bart's I don't know what we'll call him, but we'll call somebody I appreciate that So anyways back to the point before we take our break the radical skepticism of this this perspective
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Was exposed not only the radical skepticism that that in essence, and that's why I asked the question about Enormous ginormous, and now people are sending me cards that have ginormous in it and stuff like that Which I know is not a word, but it probably is by now in fact
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I think someone did stick it in the Oxford English Dictionary. I think it is there now Well wouldn't that be related to the gigabyte gig enormous ginormous?
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I think it is So it probably is a real -world word now even though Mutato will not appreciate that at all because he doesn't feel that should be
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A real word, but anyway, it's a it ended up in the debate so that makes it a real world We're now, but the point is that that's why
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I was asking us the the At least he was consistent in saying yeah, we don't know what any of those guys back there originally said
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And then I point out and yet when you cite them you don't say that Well everybody knows
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I'm citing the manuscript tradition well do it does everybody know that Have you explained that when you quote
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Suetonius and use Suetonius as a source? Do you say now? We really haven't we don't have a clue What's the
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Tony is actually wrote? Because there's this ginormous Distance between what he what he wrote and and what the first manuscript evidence
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But that's what they have to do we have to push people to say are you really ready to abandon all of history?
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Are you really really willing to abandon everything we've pretended to know? About history from these valuable historical sources and will you explain?
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How you can have a consistent manuscript tradition if in fact you have this major kind of corruption where you've got?
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Suetonius saying X and not X and and This this these massive changes, which just aren't there that came out and that was very very important I think people need to understand that we need to start pressing that and I'll continue with the other things that came out in the debate and your phone calls 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
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We'll be right back Answering those who claim that only the
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King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true
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Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611
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You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomen
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.org The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith
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Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the
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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme
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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute
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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith
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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.
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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words
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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org
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Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha -Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you Back here in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona, it's going to be getting up into the low 70s this week
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I was I was on the flight back. I was listening to folks Like before we take off they're calling home.
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They're going well, so Ice storm, I mean is there where's the ice right now? How much is there?
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Is there snow on the ground? Just sitting going I bet they're not going to Phoenix They're in Fort Lauderdale going to Dallas.
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So yeah, that's that was that was the case, but no, no, no ice here It is it is it's very very very nice here and so anyway
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We are talking about the Bart Ehrman debate and taking your phone calls. I guess it's cuz it's
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Tuesday morning I don't know sometimes Tuesdays, you know, you get lots of folks to maybe they thought The cruise is gonna be longer than it was or something like that It was pretty short one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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I actually I've got an email I need to respond to before I get out of here from From David Wheaton.
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He wants to have me on his program and I think that Chris Arntzen wants to be on the program to talk about the urban debate as well
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So I need to get hold of them and let them know that I'd be very very happy to do those programs because they reach a group of people that we do not so That will be very good
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And I did also get my my version of Bible works 8 I need to get installed so I can start telling folks about it
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And new new things and changes and things like that. So we'll try to get around to that as well also, my sincere thanks to folks for Giving me an encouragement to press forward with writing the book on these subjects and much wider than just these subjects
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Because one of the issues, you know, one of the things I mentioned in the blog article was I studied a much wider variety of Topics I was prepared for for dr
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Ehrman to go a number of different directions pretty much any direction that he had gone in his New Testament class synoptic issues allegations of contradiction
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I I Thought about pointing out some of the some of the whoopses I found in his book, but I I didn't do that I I I hope he fixes it.
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He is doing another edition the orthodox corruption of scripture so I hope he fixed some of the some of the problems in there, but Just small things, but I was prepared to deal with a pretty wide variety of things
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So what I had not expected was to be dealing with the current leading French textual critical scholars that was
35:46
But that actually leads me to the next next point that I had on my list here. And that was The what we had seen in the infidel guy discussion
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Really came out again and he seems to do this with with people that he feels he can do this with And evidently felt that that was the best way to go here.
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And that is the argument from authority I'm Bart Ehrman for crying out loud. I've been doing this forever. Well, he hasn't been doing it forever.
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He's not that old and there have been people who've been doing it just as long if not longer than he him and But it's the argument from authority
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I'm a part of this small cadre of folks and I I sip lattes at SPL with these people and that is
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Why you should believe what I have to say I'm I'm in charge. I'm large and in charge and and therefore, you know here's the argument from authority and it and it's just just believe me because I say it and My my view is look if you really know your field and if you really know the facts in your field
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And if you actually are confident enough to listen to what the other side is saying and to hear them accurately
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You don't need to use the argument from authority. You don't need to go there you can say well here are the actual facts and that's why
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I was really lost when He couldn't seem to see what I was saying
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And I think this goes to another point that when you when you dwell only in one area and You don't get out in essence and do other things and you don't have to communicate to a wide variety of audiences.
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I Just don't understand why Dr. Ehrman could not understand
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The argument that I was presenting concerning how very much alike the manuscript tradition is
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How good it is he's so focused on variants. He's so focused on differences That he just doesn't even seem to want to admit the existence of the fact that if you take the most
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Byzantine manuscript you have and then you take the most Alexandrian manuscript you have and you apply the same rules of exegesis and Interpretation to the two of them.
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You're not going to come up with different religions. You don't have part of the manuscript tradition saying that that Jesus Was an
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Asian guy who lived in the 14th century Who was into painting?
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Okay, and that's what some people think when you're saying well, we don't know what it originally said
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Well, then it could said it could have said anything, right? That's not the case. And when
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I showed graphics where I asked Bible works To mark the differences between the two ends of the spectrum.
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He didn't argue that those weren't the two ends of the spectrum The the Byzantine on the one hand the
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Alexandrian on the other hand and When I when I show where you have an entire text like in the book of Hebrews We can go verse after verse at first and there's no difference
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Absolutely, no difference in wording in these printed texts That draw from these two ends of the spectrum.
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He just didn't seem to even begin to understand why I was even raising the point But I had to raise the point because a lot of folks don't think that that's the case
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They listen to him and they they figure that if you look at every single manuscript, they're all telling different stories and that's not the case and so he couldn't understand once I pointed out the number of differences between the majority text and the modern critical text
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He thought I was talking about percentage of agreement of variance I Had never said that Anybody looking at the screen wouldn't have gotten that and I really expected someone with his expertise to at least understand what
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I was saying But he didn't Now again, he had taken the time to you know, prepare for the debate might it might have been rather obvious but not only that what really
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Made it odd. Is that Dan Wallace had said made the same things. He didn't do this the thing about the Byzantine text
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With him, but he mentioned the same pretty much the same numbers that that I did and He never said a word to Dan Wallace about those things never questioned any of that stuff
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So I think it goes back to this argument from authority that that he was presenting and This disconnection that he seems to have and when you're just so focused upon, you know
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You know just your small cadre of scholars were these the only people really have anything meaningful to say
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I don't worry about anybody else Then I think that led to some of the the miscommunication and and the confusion on his part in that particular instance and I just again,
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I don't find that to be much of an argument believe me because I am who I am and I've got the credentials.
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So I say so well, okay, that's that's nice. You've you've you've done, you know in -depth work in these areas
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It is ironic that I'm gonna be it's gonna be very interesting to see how he changes the next edition orthodox corruption of scripture because I quoted
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Moises Silva and Silva's referred to the orthodox corruption of scripture as one of the best modern testimonies that he knows of of The necessity of speaking about the original text because he says you every page makes reference the original text
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Well, if he's moved away from even speaking that way major portion the argumentation that books gonna have to change and It's gonna have to the book is going to have to change
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Substantially and I think just charting how those changes appear and what form they take is going to be
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Very very useful I think in demonstrating the Moving away from a historical view of textual criticism, which is involving establishing the original text to now this
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Exegesis of the variants themselves. I was a I Was impacted shall
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I say? When he got up for his rebuttal period and he starts talking to the audience about all the stuff that you threw out and I think this is where he comes from in his authority kind of approach because You've commented in the past about the ivory tower
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Environment of scholarship and the fact that you've done something with King James only controversy and in other places that is not supposed to be
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Done where you communicate this stuff to folks like me The regular folks and you make it put it in an understandable form and somehow that's anathema to these guys
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I think it's anathema to him I think that came out in his rebuttal as he's admonishing the audience of you know
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He he threw out a lot of stuff. This is really complicated stuff And I I just don't know that you understand it.
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Yeah. Well, and he's trying to lull you Yeah, it's a little bit like the magician thing, you know when you're a magician you never tell your secrets
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You're not supposed to tell how these things are done because that involves other Magicians as well who do similar tricks and you're never supposed to reveal this stuff
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Well, there isn't some of that in scholarship where it's it's sort of like We should we should never really
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You know let the lay people in on our special vocabulary because then they might discover that they can think about these things too instead of having to depend on us to do all this and they're unfortunately that is a part of how a lot of scholars think and that's that's that's rather sad, but yeah, we are into demythologizing scholarship and and trying to make these things understandable to folks and That's sort of how
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We do things around here but that that also will get you the kind of response you get well He's just trying to lull you into Remaining Christians.
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I mean, let's face it when he was saying you need to be willing to accept another viewpoint What is what he's really saying is you need to be willing to?
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Accept the viewpoint that the Bible is not the Word of God. He doesn't want to say that He certainly doesn't want to say about the
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Quran. He's not gonna not gonna go there for anything, but That's That's the result of what he's trying to lecture and it did seem like a lecture and and I'm sorry
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There are many times. I thought dr. Ehrman was absolutely grossly condescending
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To the audience at the Greer heard forum and he did some of that in this one
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No, so some of this other stuff. We're gonna have to getting into some scholarly textual critical stuff and you know,
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I you know Well get into it, that's what the debates for you know, call people to a higher standard not to the least common denominator
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But I thought he was grossly Condescending to the people the Greer heard for him, you know
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He'd put a slide up and he was using the same slides had the same errors on the same slides. It was it was weird But he'll say well, this is actually a portion of John rather than mark nothing
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You've been able to tell that but You know, and I was I just there are so many times for me as a speaker, especially
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It caught it caught me to listen to that and to realize just how little you're thinking
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Your audience is able to follow in that type of a context now. This is some complicated stuff. You can lose folks
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Especially if you use particular vocabulary, that is not a part of the average person's vocabulary
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But if you actually explain things and especially if you take the time to make a presentation, it's gonna show these things nicely
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It's amazing what lay people can understand, you know, which did it anyway?
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But yeah that that definitely definitely came up He wasn't
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I don't think he was quite as condescending in in our debate Certainly toward me.
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He was trying to be he was really trying to by the way He wouldn't even look at me during the cross -examination, even though I'm facing him you and I've got my little
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Casio cam Video of the debate and you can see he will not even look at me
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It's a little bit like Tim Staples and in our debate during the cross -ex You know, he's looking and looking that direction.
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I mean go look at you. That's fine. No, no, no worries I mean sometimes things are set up in such a way that You you can't really see people overly well,
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I understand that but that that wasn't the situation in this there was a wide open space between dr.
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Room and myself and He just didn't want to Did just didn't want to be there at that point was really more concerned to think about How the basketball game was going then then the questions
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I was asking But anyway that just sort of comes from that One other thing
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I wanted to mention and Calls just aren't coming in today. I think people are I think people are more interested in what my thoughts were because I was there but I I'm I am really looking forward to seeing what the
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The videos picked up Regarding dr. Ehrman's behavior while I was speaking Because the people at the debate and this is another reason
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I told folks I told folks a long time ago You'll want to be at this debate.
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This is going to be Very very important and what's more is there's just something about being there
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Those that were there when they watch the videos are going to remember this stuff Even if some of the stuff isn't on it specifically whether the cameras are picking up what dr
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Ehrman is doing behind me now at one point I could tell he was doing something behind me because when
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I quoted him There was a little bit of a delay and then everybody laughed and I could tell they're looking past me
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So I knew Ehrman had done something I had made some Gesture or done something.
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I guess he had put his thumbs up or something like that In regards to my quoting him on this particular issue of the scribes and the job that they were doing and things like that But I was told that And I've seen some of the some of the single camera shots, you know still shots
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I have one on my on my computer on my Mac of him just giving this befuddled stare at my screen probably during the
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Presentation I was had the computer markup where you can see the differences between the Byzantine and Alexandrian text
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That's that's probably where it was coming from. I don't know but he was making faces He was quite to put it in the words of the people
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He was quite animated in his response to while I was speaking and Especially when when things get really weird
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I can be animated too But generally I think most people would say that I just sit there and I take notes
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Even though during his opening presentation, I didn't have to take any notes because I had already heard this presentation Literally dozens of times before in the exact order it was given in the exact words exact examples exact jokes
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I could I could tell you exactly which jokes were coming up, you know Most described layers only tell us that ancient writers didn't know how to spell any better than my students at Chapel Hill And they've got spell check.
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I've never understood that. There's a reason it's underlined in red That means it's misspelled but they still turn papers in with misspelled words
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I don't get that see how many times I've heard that it's just you know
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Stanford and New Orleans and Fort Lauderdale and it's just the same thing over and over again and it's true
49:48
I suppose but you know, I'd sort of come try to come up with other ways of saying it. But anyway One of the things that I was told was that When I ever
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I mentioned something about persecution About a risk the scribe risking his life
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To own a manuscript that dr. Ehrman responded basically by rolling his eyes as if Persecution has nothing to do with the early context the
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Christian Church Now I would be very interested in knowing if he has some radical radically skeptical view about the reality of the persecution of Christians Up through the pieces of church in 313, maybe he does.
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I don't know But it was interesting that That that was the case because this didn't come up but the morning of the debate.
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I Purchased an online journal from this is this is the the journal of the early
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Christian studies from John Hopkins University and I was reading a particular text a
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Particular article in in this text. This is a papyri from the great persecution
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Roman and Christian perspectives by Anne -Marie Leuchten dieck You want you want a interesting spelling l -u -i j -e -n d -i -j -k
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That sounds either Icelandic or Swedish or something I don't remember which one is but It was it was quite interesting.
51:30
Anyway, I was reading this article the morning of the debate Despite the fact that it's about persecution and it is talking about Papyri evidence we have
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About the dissolution of churches during the great Empire wide persecution
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That was the last portion of the persecution the last 50 60 years of the period of persecution prior to the rise of Constantine and There was a document
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Dated May 19th 303 we know exactly where it is exactly when when it was written
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May 19th 303 and There are there's a discussion of some of the things that were found in in this material
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In this church because these churches would be dissolved. They would come in and they would basically
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You know, these are the things we took and we anything precious they had we sold and of course, they would destroy the manuscripts
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They would destroy the manuscripts and I was noting some of the things that were said here and when
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I scrolled back up to get it I lost my place. Isn't that wonderful? There it is. There it is
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Upon closer inspection and those silver lamp and a silver box appear and also four large jars and six barrels in the dining room as Well as one large codex.
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So there was one large codex and the Imperial persecuted
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Imperial decree was that Those were to be burned they were to be destroyed in Addition listen to this the officials visited the homes of seven readers because not everyone could possess the scriptures.
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So you had readers people had the ability and they would then read the scriptures out during during the during the course of worship, so They would go the readers listen to this.
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They visited the seven readers confiscating in total 37 37 manuscripts which the readers had hidden This is in one church one church 37 manuscripts how many of those 37 manuscripts and This is an
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Egypt by the way, that's where most of our papyri come from because of climatological conditions You can't have 20 inches of rain a year or 40 inches of rain a year.
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Whatever you have in many places in Europe And have papyri survive for 2 ,000 years ain't gonna happen
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It needs to be dry it needs to be if it's buried in the ground if it's
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Put in a such situation where it's not going to be constantly wet or it's just simply going to disintegrate
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What would what would would maybe one or two of those have survived?
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These are fourth century manuscripts at the latest because this is 303 So they would have actually been produced when?
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in the second century Which is the time period that were even had to dispute about in regards to the dozen manuscripts
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Here's 37 in one church destroyed in what in the persecution So don't tell me
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I mean, I don't know why he's rolling his eyes and stuff it is an established fact of church history anyways that you had the lapsed and And part of the lapsed were the
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Trotters and the Trotters were those who gave over the scriptures during times of persecution and So here we have papyri evidence of a in a single church 37 if you include the large codex taken of the church itself 38 manuscripts
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Now do we know that every single one of these manuscripts was of the New Testament? No, because we do know we do have some stories from church history that since Roman soldiers were not always the brightest bulbs in the pack
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When it comes to literary stuff that some people tried to get away with turning over like maybe
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Non -canonical writings or secular writings things like that and get away with that rather than giving up the scriptures
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But these were the readers these were the ones who read the scriptures And so it's it's pretty highly probable that at least the vast majority if not all of these manuscripts were in fact
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New Testament or Septuagint Greek translations the Old Testament that were turned over and as a result were burned and destroyed
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They aren't going to come down through history to us persecution did impact
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The early copying of the New Testament. There's no question about that and There that very morning
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And and here's another little inside story real quick when I first met dr. Erman at the hotel I went up to him after I had eaten dinner and and I introduced myself and As soon as we shook hands he said well
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I don't know what you're doing down here shouldn't you be in your room reading the apparatus and se on 27th edition Now, I don't know what that was meant to I you know
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I could take that negatively and maybe given how things went. I probably should have taken it negatively, you know
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I'm not looking always to be Insulted I didn't really understand it along those lines but the fact the matter is he was watching a basketball game and I was studying and Even the morning of the debate was reading articles like this that talk about what it was.
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I had said Now I didn't get to you know, bring that out in the in the debate so much
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Because he said nothing about persecution during the debate But I did find it odd that the people especially in the front couple rows that had the best view of him
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Which was over on the right hand side The podium was sort of in the way of people on the left hand side to be able to see him very well while I was speaking
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But they all made the comment that it seemed he was taking real exception To what
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I was saying on the subject of persecution and here's just one example. There are many others but just one example were very clearly and this is by the way that page 351 of The Journal of Early Christian Studies if you want to take a look at it where this is discussed
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That's what I was looking at the morning of the debate along with other things as well
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So there you go a little more background a story a little background information on the subject of the debate
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We will be back Lord willing Thursday afternoon move on to other subjects actually, but taking your phone calls as well here on the dividing line
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Thanks for listening. We'll see you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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