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Guest #2: MAX DONER pastor of Sovereign Grace Bible Church of Lebanon, OR on: “THE ROSEBURG, OREGON SHOOTINGS: A CHRISTIAN RESPONSE”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you a happy Monday on this gorgeous fifth day of October in 2015 and we've got some very important programs today, very exciting programs I think.
First, for the first hour of the broadcast we're going to have Sam Waldron who is the Dean of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and he's going to be addressing the regulative principle of worship and that is just one of the chapters out of a book that we have already begun addressing with the editor Robert Ventura going beyond the five points pursuing a more comprehensive reformation.
So that will be the first hour is going to be on the regulative principle of worship and then following Sam Waldron on our second hour will be Pastor Max Donor of Sovereign Grace Bible Church in Lebanon, Oregon and he's going to be discussing the Roseburg, Oregon shootings, a Christian response.
He's going to be seeking to give a Christian reaction to this and I know that there are people who are even within the pale of Christianity and even within the pale of reformed Christianity that don't agree 100 on how to react to a tragedy like this, a horrific nightmarish tragedy but we are going to at least have one solidly reformed Baptist pastor on who lives in the local community there in Oregon to discuss this on the second hour.
But as I said for the first hour we're going to be discussing the regulative principle of worship with our guest today, Dr. Sam Waldron and as I said already he is the Dean of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and Professor of Systematic Theology.
He is also one of the pastors of Grace Reform Baptist Church in Owensboro, Kentucky. Dr. Waldron received a B .A. from Cornerstone University, an M .Div. from Trinity Ministerial Academy and a T .H .M. from Grand Rapids Theological Seminary and a Ph .D. from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
From 1977 to 2001 he was a pastor of the Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan and Dr. Waldron is the author of numerous books including a modern exposition of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, The End Times Made Simple, Baptist Roots in America to be Continued and MacArthur's Millennial Manifesto, A Friendly Response.
Dr. Waldron is a member of the Evangelical Theological Society and I'm honored and privileged to welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron but also welcome him for the first time to the all new Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Sam Waldron.
It's good to be back with you, Chris. I remember it was great.
Yes, I do as well, brother, and well first of all before we even get into the discussion why don't you address your seminary that you are the dean at and if you could hold on for a second, we've got temporary, we had some feedback there.
Tell us something about the seminary that you're a dean at, Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary. Some people hear that phrase Covenant Baptist and they think it doesn't make sense, they think it's oxymoronic.
Tell us something about that.
Well, the church is one ten years the same in every age of the theology.
And of course even though you are not dispensationalist and even wrote a book in a brotherly and loving fashion critiquing Dr. John MacArthur, you still hold dearly such men as Dr. MacArthur as brothers and friends and so on.
Absolutely. That's why I made very sure because who cannot or the doctors.
I'm going to right at the outset give our email address if anybody would like to email a question for Dr. Waldron on the regulative principle of worship or even anything else that's uniquely about or specifically about Reformed Baptists, their beliefs and practices, you can shoot off an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. We ask you to please give us your first name at least, the city and state where you reside and the country where you reside if you live outside of the USA.
As I mentioned before, Dr. Waldron, you participated with the book that Rob Ventura has edited called Going Beyond the Five Points, Pursuing a More Comprehensive Reformation. We already had Rob Ventura to give us a broad overview of the majority of the book's contents and now I wanted to systematically go through the chapters with the different authors that contributed to the book whenever we have the ability to interview them and providentially we have you on today to at least discuss one of those issues.
You say something like the regulative principle of worship. A lot of people look at you like a dog might have a crooked head and you can tell they don't have a clue what you're speaking of. Even some of our most conservative Baptist or Bible-believing Christian friends don't have a clue what you mean by that.
What does the regulative principle of worship actually.
Mean?
Well, you have to do what the Bible says, but if you can add to the Bible, as long as you don't contradict anything there. So basically the regulative principle...
So the difference between, another difference between the regulative principle and the normative principle is that it's really, they both have a different approach to the issue of silence, I'm guessing.
Those who agree to the regulative principle, there is a prohibition of all things that are not actually taught to perform or conduct in a worship service, whereas the normative principle, the silence, gives them and their minds more freedom.
Am I right on that comparison?
Yeah, I think that's basically right.
And so, in your opinion, because there are, as you know, there are differences of opinion even amongst Reformed Christians who firmly hold to the regulative principle. You, as you well know, there are Reformed brothers, even some, although they would be a minority, Reformed Baptists who are exclusive psalm singers and who use strictly a cappella worship, worship without musical instruments.
And I know that one of the claims that they make is because musical instruments are not mentioned in the New Testament other than in reference to heaven. But if you could give an explanation of what you mean by that, and why you do sing hymns in addition to psalms and use musical instruments.
Oh, well, let me back up and just, people, you're mentioning as a mini-problemity in non-instrumentalism, the rejectors of the non-instrumentalism. The non-instrumentalism in some people's hymns were never stated in the confessional.
I would say that that's an issue that, that's at least a brief survey of the field, brother, and then that's my reaction to non-instrumentalism in general.
Sure, well, first of all, before you pursue them, I'm assuming that you find absolutely nothing in error with those that only sing psalms and do not use musical instruments. I'm assuming that where you find the error is when Christians try to bind those things on the consciences of others.
Unless I'm wrong, perhaps you believe musical instruments are necessary, but I was just assuming the other, if you could...
Oh, sure, thank you for letting me go mandate, and so while I don't think that there's anything wrong with that...
Is some of that because, if you're an exclusive psalm singer, although you are worshipping Christ, you're not worshipping him by name, Jesus Christ, whereas in the New Testament we find that specific name, and those who have more freedom and sing hymns actually worship him by name?
...requirements that we worship God, I think it's the context that when comes, it will declare all things to us. The hour is coming, verse 20, for such people the Father seeks and the context predicts the day we'll no longer worship in the mountain, in Mount Zion.
Now, the point I'm making is, the whole context points according to the full revelation given in Jesus, to the shadows and good revelation of the Old Testament, and when the revelation is given in the Old Testament.
Excellent. Now, I don't want to belabor these issues, but I don't know if you've read John Price's book, Old Light on New Worship, he is a fellow Reformed Baptist, and I was quite amazed that instrumental music seems to be completely absent from Protestantism, other than the Lutheran Church, for many centuries, and even in the United States we didn't have the appearance of an organ in a Presbyterian Church until the 19th century.
That was really astonishing to me. What is your reaction to the fact that it seems that the overwhelming testimony of Protestantism is to sing a cappella? I know that we are a sola scriptura people, we don't allow things that have arisen in history to bind our consciousness to things, but how do you react to that?
So, you're saying that the musical instruments are not a part of worship, they're merely an aid to it?
Compare chapter one, particular application, just expand on that. Reject the argument of those in the covenant worship on the basis of the ceremonial worship of the Old Testament can be thought of as an argument for the use of instruments.
I think this is the forgiveness in John 4, 24, and not according to the forms themselves. And it only makes sense then that when everybody acknowledges, someone starts quoting the Psalms to try to prove that we should have cymbals and trumpets and all sorts of things.
When the cattles are enabled to play fine music. But the fact is, the biblical term was with the fingers. Therefore, the very derivation of the biblical word for psalm reminds us and suggests to us that the accompanying of singing by the playing of some musical instrument is a normal circumstance.
And as long as it only remains a circumstance, as long as it doesn't become the main thing, as long as we don't have it.
We're going to be going to our first break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Sam Waldron on the regulative principle of worship, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the United States. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions right after these messages.
So don't go away. We'll be right back with Sam Waldron and the regulative principle of worship.
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Long Island Galleries is honored to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. See the Long Island Galleries display ad at ironsharpensironradio .com. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, we're discussing the regulative principle of worship with our guest, Sam Waldron, who is the dean of the Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky.
And Pastor Waldron, or Dr. Waldron, what can you say about what you believe the regulative principle permits and what it prohibits that you may find in many modern day worship services?
By the way, anything that you may have done differently when you were speaking, it really.
Enhanced the sound of your voice coming through on the interview, so I would keep doing what you were just doing at the last moment.
Okay.
And so basically, unless I'm misinterpreting you, it sounds like you believe a lot of churches are involved in what the scriptures prohibit, which is called vain worship.
Yes.
Yes, and I'm assuming that you would agree with me that a lot of people make the error of using their emotions as a litmus test to the presence of the Holy Spirit. And, of course, you not only have the folks who are involved in more exuberant and emotional worship, like Charismatics, using that as a litmus test, you have people that have actually returned to Rome for the same reason, because they think that they have a more religious sensation or a more worshipful spirit within them when candles are lit and when chanting is occurring and when bells are ringing and that kind of thing.
I mean, it could be the opposite end of the spectrum, but it's the same thing, isn't it?
Absolutely.
And why do you think that this issue is so extremely important? Some people are going to say that you're really just trying to be a cosmic killjoy here. You're trying to dampen the liveliness and the joy that people are feeling and experiencing in their worship.
And they also say, hey, the things that we do in worship are in the Bible. We dance in our worship, because David danced, and dancing was a part of the Old Testament worship. And they do all sorts of other things, like use incense, perhaps, or other things that they can find in the Bible when people are worshiping.
How do you respond to those kinds of comments?
First of all, it was affirmation that said, no, no.
Well, basically, I was just saying that why is this discussion on the regulative principle of worship such an important thing in Christianity today?
Oh, that is my concern. It's not a problem. You can go back to the Bible, and it may make other people's reactions.
There are some churches, some of them might even be Calvinistic, who think that the only thing that's required in the gathered corporate worship of a local church in regard to the Scriptures are the reading of it and the teaching of it.
And some will say that preaching is something that you would primarily do to those outside of the four walls of your church. They would actually say, some, that preaching is not a requirement of New Testament worship within the corporate gathering of the church.
How do you respond to those who are separating the preaching and the outdoor evangelism and so on from preaching inside the corporate worship?
Second of all, even God's people need to be preached to.
The argument I've heard that I just mentioned is more prevalent in the house church movement, that even some of those people are Calvinistic, where they believe in preaching, like open-air preaching, but when they're in the gathered worship, they basically run their worship services very much like a Bible study, where there's just sitting down around in a circle teaching, and people can ask questions during the teaching and so on.
We have an anonymous listener in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, that wants to know,.
Is it ever wrong for a woman to lead worship? I believe that a woman should never teach or have authority over a man, as Paul clearly taught, but does someone leading the singing or worship violate that?
Okay, that was...
Well, look, brother, in worship, you're talking about by ministers, by men, even though, why can't we do this, why can't we do this? Well, again, that whole question is contrary to the regular principle, which requires that we ask, what does the Bible say that we should and should not do?
In my view, no, I think it's wrong for women.
Now, how would you react? You said some things earlier in a derogatory fashion or a prohibitive fashion against bell choirs and such a thing. Do you believe that it is ever appropriate for the gathered church, when it's outside of the normal worship service that they may have every week, where they may have a fellowship gathering of some kind in the church building and do things like bell choirs and on and.
On?
Well, I want to thank you so much, Dr. Waldron, for being our guest today.
I'm looking forward to you coming back as a guest on The Iron Shepherd is Iron, and I just want to let our listeners know that your website for the Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is cbtseminary .org.
Cbtseminary .org, that's C-B-T for Covenant Baptist, T-S for Theological Seminary. Cbtseminary .org. Thank you so much for joining us on Iron Shepherd is Iron, and we look forward to you coming back.
Thanks, brother. I enjoyed it. Good talking with you.
You too. Well, God bless you. And coming up, as I said earlier, we're going to have Pastor Max Donor. He is going to be giving some insight on the recent horrific shootings in Oregon. He himself is a pastor in Oregon and nearby Lebanon, and we look forward to hearing what he has to say today.
That's Pastor Max Donor coming up right after these messages, so don't go away. We're going to be right back with more of Iron Shepherd is Iron right after this word from our sponsors.
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See the Long Island Galleries display ad at ironsharpensironradio .com. Welcome back, this is Chris Arns. And if you've just tuned us in, for our first hour we had Dr. Sam Waldron of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky.
I kept screwing up the website for them. Let me say it one more time. It's cbtseminary .org. CBT for Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary .org. And we look forward to have Dr. Waldron back in the near future.
But right now we are going to be speaking about something that I'm sure everybody here listening today has heard about and perhaps has heard about at great length, and that is the recent shootings in Oregon.
And we have today with us a local pastor in that area who is going to give his own insights how we as Christians should respond when things like this occur that are often the spark conversations around water coolers and coffee clotches and picnics and barbecues and all kinds of gatherings with not only believers but believers in a mixture of unbelievers.
And it's always good to have a good biblical answer and be ready to give an answer as the Apostle Paul tells us whenever we are confronted to have an answer for our faith. And we have the privilege today for the very first time ever of having Pastor Max Donor on our program.
He has been a Reformed Baptist pastor for 32 years. He subscribes to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. And Pastor Max began Sovereign Grace Church of Sacramento, California in 1982 and was pastor there for seven years.
In later years, the church was renamed Emmanuel Baptist Church. It is currently pastored by Robert Briggs and Robert Gonzalez, Jr. Max began Sovereign Grace Bible Church in Lebanon, Oregon in 1990 and has pastored there for the last 25 years.
Max has been married to his wife Kathy for 40 years and they have four adult children. And Sovereign Grace Bible Church's website is SovereignGraceBible .com. That's SovereignGraceBible .com. And they have a worldwide listening audience in over 100 different countries through the 2 ,000 plus sermons they have posted on SermonAudio .com where over 1 ,000 sermons a month are downloaded across the globe.
That's very impressive. And it's our honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Max Donor.
Thank you, Chris. It's good to be here and it's a privilege and honor to be on your program.
Yes, and I want to right away give our listeners an email address that if they care to join us on the air for the question of their own. For Pastor Max, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. And please only remain anonymous if it's in regard to a personal or private matter.
Well, first of all, before we even get into the discussion here, Pastor Max, give us an abbreviated version of how you came to Christ personally.
Yeah, I was raised in a Roman Catholic home from the time I was an infant. We were serious Catholics. We went to church every Sunday, first communion conference, and I always knew that Jesus died on the cross because of the church, but I never knew why, and I never realized that there was a substitutionary atonement there.
Yes, and we have to remind our listeners, because I know that I do have Catholic listeners and listeners in various religious groups and some and none, but we have to remind them that this is not at all about hate or bigotry when we speak this way.
It's about wanting to believe in truth and wanting to, if you believe it, declare it. And obviously, even if we believe that such things as the Mass and other things that happen in the Roman Catholic Church are deeply heretical, if a Catholic believes that these are real things, they should realize that the difference that we have with them is significant, and it's not something that should be kept quiet about.
And so obviously, if you believe in what's true, and if you believe what you have as a doctrinal standard, if you believe that is from God, then you shouldn't keep your mouth shut about it, correct?
That's correct, yeah. I certainly didn't mean to offend any of your listeners, but just, Ernie.
Oh, yes, well, that's why I said that is because inevitably, I always offend somebody in some way, shape, or form, whether it's on the left or the right.
Sure.
But anyway, what is the demographic makeup of the area where you pastor and where these horrific shootings recently took place?
Yeah, the demographic area is actually populated. There's only three million people in the entire state, and a million of those are... So the Roseburg area where the shootings take place, people find a better way than them in trying to...
Yes, and obviously, we've all heard, perhaps you could separate some of what actually happened from folklore that has already been discussed, but we've heard that people were being shot deliberately because they refused to reject their faith in Christ.
Is that correct?
That's correct. In fact, the shooter, if they were, he would shoot them. And how many people did lose their lives that day? Nine people lost their lives.
And what have you learned about the shooter himself, about his background?
Yeah, the shooter himself is from a single-parent home, and that's an Islamic jihadi. I know about him at this point in time, and they are going over... There's more information to come out, but that's what we know about the shooter so far.
Right, and there is enough actual Islamic terrorism going around without us inventing it just because somebody with a serious mental problem may have some kind of personal sympathy or empathy with Islam.
That's exactly right. There's no indication this man was an Islamist or a Muslim.
Right, and so here we have this horrific tragedy, and you have all kinds of reactions. And first of all, I have even heard from some brethren in Christ, even some who have theological similarities to you and I, who are theologically reformed.
These particular individuals that I've heard from are from overseas, and they've seen these kinds of things that happen here. At its root, they see as a large cause or reason in their minds is the American love affair with guns.
How do you respond to that?
Yeah, the love affair with guns. A gun is a tool.
You mean in your particular area. Not everybody has a gun everywhere.
That's correct. We use them for hunting, we use them for target practice, and we use them for self-defense. And other than that, the Second Amendment right.
And as Lord Acton said in the 19th century, very appropriately I think, power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If a certain group of individuals, namely the elite in government leadership, are the only ones with guns, that's a very dangerous recipe, isn't it?
Well, it is, and that's exactly what the problem was. They had a gun, the other people, and that's what guns do. I think that there needs to be, that's why it's important to have guns.
And I want to repeat our email address here. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. We do already have a listener in Worcester, Massachusetts, Gary, who asks, where did the pastor get his information that the shooter asked the question if the victims were Christians?
Did he read this, or did he receive this firsthand from witnesses? Did firsthand witnesses inform him?
Contact with any of the witnesses, I read that information.
And as you were saying that guns are tools, and the majority, the vast majority of people who own them are law-abiding citizens, just like automobiles. We have really frightening statistics when it comes to automobile deaths that occur every day, and obviously it would be a horrible thing if the government of the United States or anywhere else restricted all of its citizens to using public transportation.
That would actually be probably impossible because of the sheer numbers of people in this country. Is that a good comparison?
Yes, it is. There's 108 million gun owners in the United States. And so it's a tiny number, and it's not justified. The focus needs to be, Chris, not on the instrument, using that instrument wrongly. It's just like you can use a knife to do surgery and save someone's life, or you can use that same knife to issue it and why he has it and what purpose for which he's employing it.
And if we don't address what the—and try to—.
And it's also going to be less likely for us as fellow citizens in this country to come to the aid of someone who is being murdered by a crazed gunman if we are ourselves not armed and incapable of using the firearm.
Precisely.
And don't you think, though, there is, having said all that, a very dangerous thing that some Christians have done where they have mingled together Christianity and politics and conservatism and republicanism and Guns Ammo magazine and the American Rifle Association all kind of together in a soup where that is what Christianity means?
Do you follow what I'm saying?
I do, yeah. And I think that, you know, there's a certain segment of people who— and, you know, for the—guns are a tiny part of his life. And how much of it involves that particular fact? You know, it's a tiny part of our faith.
It's a tiny part. Disciples traveled from place to place who wanted to rob them or harm them, and they needed the means.
And I'm going to repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And also, some of the critics of those opposing gun control laws, they are right in some of the accusations they've made about the American culture being fascinated with gratuitous violence in the media and in film and so on.
Don't you think that that can reach a sinful level if somebody is totally enthralled and excited and enthusiastic about witnessing, especially at great length, gratuitous violence in television and movies and that kind of a thing?
Absolutely. We allow our children to watch, on average, seven hours of television a day that's filled with records of murder. And what you have here is an indication of, you know, when I was young, Chris, and you know what?
We didn't have police officers on campus. In our local, they now have a full king of the halls. And it's like, you throw out prayer, you throw out the Bible, truth in my truth is my truth, and then we wonder why they behave the way they do.
We're going to be going to a break right now. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address, again, is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, especially if you live outside of the USA.
And we look forward to hearing from you. That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Are you a Christian looking to align your faith and finances?
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you've just tuned us in, we are interviewing Pastor Max Doner today for a Christian response to these horrific shootings that we have all learned about that did take place in Roseburg, Oregon, very recently.
And I just want to let you know that tomorrow we're going to have also another local pastor in that area from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Roseburg. He is going to address this situation as well from a Christian standpoint and a pastoral standpoint.
And so that we get as much as we can as far as a Christian reaction to this, because so many people are going to be speaking about this in the days and weeks ahead, I'm sure. So make sure you also tune in tomorrow to hear Pastor Jeff Scott of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church discuss that.
That's the Covenant Grace Church of Roseburg, Oregon. And also tomorrow we have Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio for the very first time. Tomorrow he is going to be discussing his book, Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You.
That's Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio. And last but not least, tomorrow, right after Todd Friel, we have Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, letting us know what new things that he has in store for us as far as literary gems that Solid Ground Christian Books has brought back into print.
But once again, our email address here is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks you, Pastor Max, I live in an area where I have encountered a number of Mennonites and Amish people and Brethren in Christ individuals who are pacifists.
And they point to Jesus and the disciples not using violence to counteract the threat of violence that they may receive. They were merely peaceful and nonviolent people, it seems clear from the scriptures.
How do you react to the pacifist argument against things that you have said today?
Yeah, the argument I would make against pacifist priest Erof, and so we don't use the sword, for example, like Islam does, is really a denial of the duty of one's self from...
Right, it would be quite a horrific scene to conjure up in your mind of a father and husband standing there in the living room watching a group of hoodlums who have broken into their home abuse and torture and murder the entire family while he stood by and did absolutely nothing but preached to them.
Or what have you.
That's correct. Yeah, we have a duty of providing shelter but also protection.
Do you think a lot of this immediate reaction that we hear from our president, from liberal politicians, and from others that immediately goes to gun control is the solution because guns are the problem?
Do you think that a lot of times, and I don't want to broad brush because I said earlier there are Christians even, even some good and faithful theologically sound ones that have a problem with the rampant gun ownership and gun violence in America, but do you think that all too often this is a way to deflect the issue from the sinfulness of men and treat men as if we are somehow...
It's not sin that is responsible for these horrific acts, it's the possessions that the sinner has in his hands.
Yeah, that's exactly correct. As I said earlier, evil, the problem isn't with the instrument, but with the individual who is wielding it. And the trouble with politicians is that when all you have is a hammer, the only tool they have in their arsenal are making laws, and so if there's a problem they think, oh, we'll make another law.
And making another law isn't meant to be addressed by denigrating, and we have these kinds of... The reason for that, in the Garden of Eden when Satan sees that, when he had that young man become a Christian, he recognized the authority of the law of God over his life.
Now how do you respond to those who would very quickly say in reply to you to what you just said, are you kidding me? If he was a Christian, he wouldn't have done these things? We have a history filled with centuries of the streets running red with blood because of Christians murdering other people for not being Christians.
How do you respond to that kind of thing?
Well, I think you have to ask yourself, we don't have eternal life abiding in them, and so the people who claim to be Christians and practice non-Christian...
Right.
And in fact, I guess this is a time for we who are Baptists to pat ourselves on the back, because historically we have never been involved as a people in the shedding of blood in order to gain converts or to punish heretics.
I'm not talking about individual Baptists who may be insane or evil and may not even be Christian just because they call themselves Baptists, but I'm talking about as a movement, the Baptists were never involved in that type of persecution.
Well, you seemed like you were about to say something.
No, go ahead.
And so we have already established that the total depravity of man is at root here. All men, according to what we believe as theologically reformed Christians, Calvinists, we are born totally depraved, and the only reason why men aren't as bad as they could be is because of this restraint of the Holy Spirit and God in the lives of even those who are not Christians.
I mean, God in His sovereignty is obviously restraining even the evil of this earth, because if He were not, we would not even be able to walk outside our doors without being murdered, or we wouldn't even be safe in our homes.
Yeah, yeah, thank the Lord.
Yes, and perhaps I misused the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, in regard to the lost. I would assume this would be more. The restraining of the evil of lost individuals would be more of just the act of a sovereign God restraining them rather than particularly the Holy Spirit.
Sure, fine.
And so what is the thing that we really have to convey to people when they are talking about this, which prevents us from coming off like, well, we're better than you. We're Christians and we're better than you, and you have to become like us, because if everybody were more like us, then there'd be less people being murdered.
That's the way very often liberals or just those who are content in their sin and do not want to have their conscience stirred by us, they will often, you know, look at us like we're all just a bunch of hypocritical Pharisees who think that we're better than everybody else.
But that can't be the message that we are giving off, even if unintentionally, can it?
No, it can't, and the thing of it is, is we are not better than others, and as a result, we have a spirit. I'm not my own. I'm bought with a price. I have to serve God with my body and my spirit. I can't do what my impulses tell me to do.
I need to do what His will tells me to do. As far as the unsaved, we're no better than embracing Jesus. He has transformed our lives, and this is why, when you go into prison, clearly laws, is it taking away guns?
They don't have us to say, oh, we need more laws. That's not a solution to this problem. The solution to this problem, ultimately, is the transformation of the human heart through the grace of God.
Amen. And one of the things that we inevitably will be discussing when we are sitting around the barbecue or wherever we are, talking with believers and unbelievers alike. They may be believers who are less Calvinistic than we are, or anti-Calvinist, but the issue of the theodicy comes into play.
We were talking before about God even restraining in His sovereignty the evil of lost sinful men. Otherwise, we could be nowhere on this planet and be safe. And yet, God only at some times restrains completely violence, but He often will release that grip of restraint and let the wicked person act violently and freely, perhaps not to the extent that He would have otherwise if God were not present.
But you have all these horrific murders and massacres and so on happening all over the globe for centuries, and right through our present day, you can't turn on the news without hearing about murders and so on, and wars.
How could a good and loving God and a holy God and a righteous God who is supposed to be in control of all things really exist in light of all these things happening?
I think God is all good and God is all powerful, but I want to just simplify it. And I think we have to say this, God has morally sufficient reasons for the evil that exists. And when we say God doesn't supply us with an answer to that question, He simply says to us, and my character, and so what I say to people when they ask the question,.
Why?
I say to them, you know, I don't think you're going to get an answer to that. I think what you can't do is the right thing, like not doing the right thing. So it's God who does know all of those. The explanation we need to have the attitude of the answer to the without demanding an explanation out of God as to the whys and the wherefores of every situation.
And the reason why God gave us His only begotten Son, He demonstrated His love beyond dispute and beyond question. When He provided redemption and goodness, and therefore when these kinds of events occur, instead of saying why God or how could you God, is one of humility, it's one of trust, and it's one of patient waiting on God, and also for Him to bring justice to those situations that seem so absent.
We need to have a humility. We need to have the problem of evil not trying to explain it.
Right, and at the end of the day, will not the judge of all the earth do what is right?
Amen.
And you very often will have the Arminian Christian or apologist, those who do not believe that all events in heaven and on earth took place due to the divine ordination of God, the plan of God, and so on.
Those who reject that will say, when they explain these things, well, God doesn't want us to be robots, therefore He gives us free will, and He therefore allows those to exercise that free will, and unfortunately, since we're sinners, those here on this earth very often wind up murdering each other and doing all kinds of horrible things, and God will not intervene all the time, because that will violate our freedom, and they will very often speak of the free will of man almost in an idolatrous sense, as if that's the most important thing that God has gifted to His creation in the human race.
But that is not the correct way of explaining it, because it's not even true, is it?
No, it certainly isn't. You know, when people talk about free will, they don't even have a free will. The point is, is our will chooses with God, you know, His nature dictates, and that's why we need a new nature, so we'll make better decisions.
And I really want you to unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave this program, in the wake of this really horrific tragedy that has occurred in Oregon.
You know, what I want to leave with my first John 3, is these kinds of events are going to come to an end, and that Jesus Christ is going to wear and dwell His righteousness, and within which there will never be any of these harmful symptoms.
And I'm sure that inevitably, eventually, some folks there in Oregon are going to, either through this live broadcast, or through these subsequent podcasts that are archived on my website, they're going to want to refer people to a good Bible-believing church in that area.
And I know that I can trust Sovereign Grace Bible Church for the recommendation that was given to me by men of God that I trust and know. And I know that your website is SovereignGraceBible .com, SovereignGraceBible .com.
Any other words of invitation that you'd like to offer for people in the area?
Yeah, we're just south of Salem, just north of Eugene, just east of Albany.
Great, and once again, that website is SovereignGraceBible .com, SovereignGraceBible .com. And don't forget that tomorrow we're going to have some more Christian insight on this specific horrific tragedy that has occurred in Oregon with the Orthodox Presbyterian pastor in Roseburg, Oregon, giving us some of his own wisdom from the Word of God that he has gleaned from the Scriptures.
And so please tune in tomorrow for our program, not only with the Orthodox Presbyterian pastor, which is Covenant Grace Church in Roseburg, Oregon, but also remember that Todd Friel will be on tomorrow, right after him.
Todd Friel, we're going to be speaking about his book, Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You. And immediately following Todd Friel, we're going to have Mike Gaydosch of Solid Ground Christian Books on the program.
Also tell your family, friends, and loved ones that on Wednesday we are going to have Michael Haken for the very first time on this broadcast. Michael Haken is a very well-known Christian historian and author, and he is also particularly a Reformed Baptist, and he will be on this Wednesday.
We're looking forward to that. And we've also got an interesting program on Thursday where we have people from both sides of the two kingdoms debate that has arisen within the Reformed faith. We will have folks involved in both sides of that argument, including my dear friend Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, New York.
He will be on that program with others as well on Thursday. And then we're going to have Pastor Jeff Durbin, who has been on this broadcast before. He is the pastor of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona.
He also has several black belts in martial arts and in some ways in a very similar vein to what we were discussing today that not only is gun ownership completely acceptable with Christianity, and so is the learning of defending yourself through martial arts as long as none of the false Eastern religions are mixed with that.
But anyway, we hope you tune into all of these programs, and we look forward to having you, Pastor Max Dohner, back in the very near future. And once again, I know your website is SovereignGraceBible .com.
We look forward to having you back, brother.
Well, thank you, Chris. It's been great. It's been a delight, and hopefully we'll be talking again soon.
And we want you all to always remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner. Please tune in tomorrow to Iron Sharpens Iron. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions.