October 5, 2015 Show with Sam Waldron on “The Regulative Principle” AND ALSO Max Doner on “The Roseburg, Oregon Shootings: A Christian Response”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you a happy Monday on this gorgeous fifth day of October in 2015.

We've got some very important programs today, very exciting programs I think. For the first hour of the broadcast we're going to have

Sam Waldron who is the dean of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and he's going to be addressing the regulative principle of worship and that is just one of the chapters out of a book that we have already begun addressing with the editor

Robert Ventura going beyond the five points pursuing a more comprehensive reformation.

So that will be the first hour is going to be on the regulative principle of worship and then following Sam Waldron on our second hour will be

Pastor Max Doner of Sovereign Grace Bible Church in Lebanon, Oregon and he's going to be discussing the

Roseburg, Oregon shootings, a Christian response. He's going to be seeking to give a

Christian reaction to this and I know that there are people who are even within the pale of Christianity and even within the pale of reformed

Christianity that don't agree 100 % on how to react to a tragedy like this, a horrific nightmarish tragedy, but we are going to at least have one solidly reformed

Baptist pastor on who lives in the local community there in Oregon to discuss this on the second hour.

But as I said for the first hour we're going to be discussing the regulative principle of worship with our guest today

Dr. Sam Waldron and as I said already he is the dean of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and professor of systematic theology.

He is also one of the pastors of Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Owensboro, Kentucky. Dr. Waldron received a

BA from Cornerstone University, an MDiv from Trinity Ministerial Academy and a

THM from Grand Rapids Theological Seminary and a PhD from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

From 1977 to 2001 he was a pastor of the Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan and Dr.

Waldron is the author of numerous books including A Modern Exposition of the 1689

Baptist Confession of Faith, The End Times Made Simple, Baptist Roots in America to be

Continued, and MacArthur's Millennial Manifesto, A Friendly Response. Dr.

Waldron is a member of the Evangelical Theological Society and I'm honored and privileged to welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron but also welcome him for the first time to the all -new

Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Sam Waldron. It's good to be back with you Chris. I remember with great fondness and delight our previous discussions together.

Yes I do as well brother and well first of all before we even get into the discussion why don't you address your seminary that you are the dean at and if you could hold on for a second we've got temporary we had some feedback there.

Tell us something about the dean the seminary that you're a dean at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary.

Some people hear that phrase Covenant Baptist and they think it doesn't make sense they think it's oxymoronic.

Tell us something about that. Well yes and yeah there are a lot of people that if you tell them you're a form

Baptist they'll say you can't be that but no we're Covenant Baptist because we hold a version of covenant theology and that means we reject dispensationalism and classic and modified forms.

We hold the confessional view of the covenant and it's assertions that the church is one in all ages composed of all the elect from every era of the world that the law of God continues in its moral dimensions to be the same in every age of the world and so when we say we're

Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary we're telling people we hold covenant theology but we hold a

Baptist version of that. And of course even though you are not dispensationalist and even wrote a book in a brotherly and loving fashion critiquing

Dr. John MacArthur you still hold dearly such men as Dr.

MacArthur as brothers and friends and so on. Absolutely that's why I made very sure that I put right up front in the title that it was a friendly response because who cannot who loves

God's word appreciate the stands that Dr.

MacArthur has taken against easy believism the stand he's taken for the doctrines of grace and the stand he's taken for conservative view of scripture and the stand he's taken against the extremes of the charismatic movement.

So we really do appreciate him in all those regards. All right I'm gonna right at the outset give our email address if anybody would like to email a question for Dr.

Waldron on the regulative principle of worship or even anything else that's uniquely about or specifically about Reformed Baptists their beliefs and practices you can shoot off an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com

that's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com we ask you to please give us your first name at least the city and state where you reside and the country where you reside if you live outside of the

USA. As I mentioned before Dr. Waldron you participated with the book that Rob Ventura has edited called

Going Beyond the Five Points Pursuing a More Comprehensive Reformation. We are already had

Rob Ventura to give us a broad overview of the majority of the book's contents and now

I wanted to systematically go through the chapters with the different authors that contributed to the book whenever we have the the ability to interview them and providentially we have you on today to at least discuss one of those issues.

You say something like the regulative principle of worship a lot of people look at you like a dog might have a crooked head and they you tell they don't have a clue what you're speaking of even some of our most conservative baptist or bible believing christian friends don't have a clue what you mean by that what does the regulative principle of worship actually mean?

Well to put it most simply it means that the worship of the church must be regulated by the word of God that is to say every part of it must find precedent in the word of God if it's to have a part if it's to be a part of our worship.

Historically it stands against the normative principle that was held by churches like the anglican churches and the lutheran churches which says well you have to do what the bible says but there if you can add to the worship uh specified in the bible any number of rites and rituals as long as you don't contradict anything there so basically uh basically the regulative principle is sola scriptura applied to the church.

So the difference between another difference between the regulative principle and the normative principle is that uh it's really they both have a different approach to the issue of silence i'm i'm guessing those who agree to the regulative principle uh there is a prohibition of all things that are not actually taught to to perform or conduct in a worship service whereas the normative principle the silence gives them in their minds more freedom am i right on that comparison yeah i think that's basically right for the regulative principle silence means you don't do it or the normative principle silence means you have permission to do it right and uh so uh in your opinion because there are as you know there are differences of opinion even amongst uh reformed christians who firmly hold to the regulative principle uh you know you as as you well know there are reformed brothers even some although they would be a minority uh reformed baptists who are exclusive psalm singers and who use strictly acapella worship or worship without musical instruments uh and i know that one of the claims that they make is because musical instruments are not mentioned in the new testament other than in reference to heaven but if you could uh if you could give an explanation of what you mean by that and why you do uh sing hymns in addition to psalms and use musical instruments oh wow let me uh let me back up and just set the playing field here and then i'll come right back to that issue because i think it's a great some of the most important issues here but let me just analyze your question a little bit and parse it and and we'll come back the whole issue of exclusive psalmody and non -instrumentalism um one of the reasons i think this issue is so important is because you do have as you said a number of reformed reactions to the regulative principle in our day uh you have you have men who uh in the in the reformed resurgence of reformed theology like uh gore and schlissel who have re -examined the issue of the regular principle and outright have rejected the regular regulative principle in their writings you have you have redefiners of the regulative principle like john crane who uh who wants to say he holds the regulative principle but um but but actually so redefined anything like what it was historically you have you have uh reactors like the people you're mentioning i think that that have said no the regulatory principle uh has a many top places in the past and that exclusive psalmody and non -instrumentalism so we're we're going to really hold the regulative principle and so that's what we must hold i'm among one not the rejecters or the redefiners or the reactors i'm among the reaffirmers i want to reaffirm the regulative principle but then i want to say look it's um it's a principle it's it's not an application and exclusive psalmody and the non -instrumentalism are applications in some people's minds of the regulative principle but those applications were never stated in the confessions uh in the confessions of faith certainly not in the baptist confession of faith and some of the other confessions it's arguable but they certainly were stated in the 1689 baptist confession but the principle was stated and so i think we have a right to say we've got to make a distinction between the principle and the application what we hold is the regulative principle of worship and not the regulative applications of worship and uh and so that's my response to the whole matter of exclusive psalmody and non -instrumentalism i believe that the regular principle requires the singing of songs songs besides those contained in the uh old testament i i would argue that the regular principle actually requires us to sing more than that and i would i would say that there is biblical precedent uh for the use of musical instruments and worship to accompany the singing of god's people although that's uh that's an issue that needs to be uh i think uh talked about with some discrimination um so maybe uh maybe we can pursue that but that's a at least a brief survey of the field brother and then that's my reaction to exclusive psalmody and non -instrumentalism in general now if you want me to pursue those i'll be happy to sure well first of all before you pursue them uh i'm assuming that you find absolutely nothing in error with those that only sing psalms and do not use musical instruments i'm assuming that where you find the error is when christians try to bind those things on the consciences of others unless i'm wrong perhaps you believe musical instruments are necessary but i was just assuming the other if you could uh oh sure thank you for letting me clarify that no there's there's nothing sinful there's nothing sinful about not using musical instruments um uh and now when you ask me the question just that way i'm going to have to say that i believe there is a biblical mandate for saying more than uh and they sing beyond the old testament revelation and so while i don't think that there's anything wrong with singing psalms in worship i think to i think there is something wrong with the with saying that we may only sing the old testament biblical psalms i do think there's something wrong is some of that because if you're an exclusive psalm singer although you are worshiping christ you're not worshiping him by name jesus christ whereas in the new testament we find that specific name and and those who have more freedom and sing hymns actually worship him by name yeah well that's right here's the way i would approach it brother one of the premier if not the classic new testament text on worship says that it's john 424 very familiar to everyone uh god is spirit and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth now uh i'm going to have to assert what i think uh what i what i actually prove in my chapter in the book and what i try to prove elsewhere when i preach that this is a requirement that we worship god and spirit and truth that we work according to the new revelation of grace and truth given us in jesus christ that though of course a grace -centered interpretation of the psalms is appropriate though i certainly would hold that in a dim and um uh a dim way even the trinity is revealed in the old testament the fact is that everybody uh acknowledges that in terms of the specific and in terms of the doctrine of the trinity and a number of other the full revelation of those things only comes when grace and truth are given in jesus christ was given by moses which were revealed by jesus christ now john 424 i think is picking up on that if you read the context it's all about the eschatological fulfillment the coming of the messiah the fact that uh the messiah is coming he was called christ and when that one comes he will declare all things to us the hour is coming verse 23 when the true worshipers will worship father spirit and truth for such people the father seeks to be his worshiper jesus the context predicts today we're no longer worshiped in the mountain uh and in mount zion now the point i'm making is the whole context points to this eschatological fulfillment that john elsewhere talks about in terms of grace and truth being realized in jesus christ so the the this the language of his worshiping of spirit and truth picks up on this as well as a thing and and tells us that we must worship god according to the revelation the fulfillment revelation given us in jesus christ i think this is an explicit command to worship him according to the full revelation given in jesus christ and not merely according to the shadows and good revelation of the old testament and when it comes to music that means i think that we have to sing more explicitly about the identity of the messiah and more explicitly about the trinity than is possible in terms of the uh the revelation given of the in the old testament at an earlier point in progressive revelation excellent um now i don't these issues uh but uh i don't know if you've read uh john price's book uh old light on new worship he is a fellow reformed baptist and i was quite uh amazed that uh instrumental music seems to be completely absent from protestantism other than the lutheran church for many centuries and even uh in the united states we didn't have the appearance of an organ in a presbyterian church until the 19th century that was really uh astonishing to me uh what is your reaction to the fact that it seems that that the the uh overwhelming testimony of protestantism is to sing acapella i know that we are a solo scriptura people we don't allow things that have arisen in history to uh bind our consciences to things but uh how do you react to that well yeah i read john price's book in fact i read it before it was published someone asked me the publisher asked me if i wouldn't like to endorse it and one of the few occasions in my life in which i finally turned uh my good friend the publisher down and because i just feel like uh i think john's strongest argument is the historical argument um and uh and i think that i wouldn't uh claim at this point to have the knowledge to dispute into the things he says historically and and for me uh uh that i think i can i understand that historical situation because uh in my view the uh the whole matter of uh instrumental music is not a part of worship i i agree with him about that by the way it's another point i think i agree with him about uh i don't think that instrumental music is a part of worship and i think it's a mistake when it is treated as if it were a part of worship for me um uh and and i want i can say several things about that um but instrumental music i think in the new covenant is simply a circumstance of worship and not a part of worship i would agree i agree with that i think like this he says he argues that that instrumental music was a part of temple worship i think he's right he says but there's no evidence that instrumental music is part of new covenant worship and i think he's right but we must remember that the confession admits that there are some things that uh that uh in terms of the circumstances of church government the worship of the church that are to be uh dealt with in terms not simply of the regulative principle but in terms of in terms of the circumstances we've got to deal with those things in terms i'm going to i'm going to summarize the confession there in terms of sanctified common sense and so in my view instrumental music is not a part of worship not a part of new covenant worship anyway uh it is it is a circumstance of new covenant worship i think that's a really really important principle to remember and so uh if i'm summarizing historically there's a lot of evidence for the use of instruments uh my response to that is okay but the main thing has never been instrumental music the main thing has always been of the the instrument of the human voice giving giving expression to the human heart in worship to god and for me if the instruments are simply a secondary accompaniment in circumstances of the singing and not and not a part of worship so you're saying that they are the the musical instruments are not a part of worship they're merely an aid to it yes there's a circumstance a confession and and and when you compare chapter one paragraph six of the confession in chapter 22 paragraph one you have uh you have there the statement of 22 -1 with regard to the regular principles about the parts of worship the state but if that is qualified in in chapter one paragraph six uh to say that uh the regular principle deals with the parts if not the circumstances or applications or particular applications of worship um let me just expand on that a little bit tell you what i mean by it i reject the argument of those who argue for the use of musical instruments uh in the covenant worship on the basis of the old testament i don't think that the ceremonial worship of the old testament can be fought as an argument for the use of instruments in the covenant worship i think this is to forget the same principle we just talked about in john 424 that those who worship god must now worship him in spirit and truth and not according to the forms and ceremonies of the old covenant old covenant worship and new covenant worship are very different because the old covenant church and new covenant church are very different and it only makes sense then that when the when the church uh changes so much from the old to the new covenant that it's worship would change and everybody acknowledges that the old testament worship was ceremonial and so when someone starts quoting the psalms to try to prove that we should have uh symbols and trumpets and all sorts of things i just think that they're forgetting that there's a big uh there's a big hermeneutical uh leap they're taking there because the the new covenant worship is very different and there are very great christian theologians who said that the fulfillment of the old of use of those kind of many musical instruments in temple worship uh is spiritual in the human voice and i think charles adams virgin is among the people who said that so if you read carnell's uh uh treatment of him in his recent book about anyway um so so the question comes um well then how do you know it can be a circumstance of worship well the fact is that i i would base that first of all that somebody has to get the pitch the you always have to pitch the singing of the truth and use a pitch pipe or something else or a human voice and i would i would argue that uh that uh that that's all a person is that that plays the piano in a way that isn't showing and doesn't dominate uh the singing i'm not saying pianos can be used by the way but uh that that's all that someone is doing is playing the piano they're enabled by labeling the church to stay on the same pitch that the singing uh is uh is edifying music but the fact is the biblical term for for psalm is is in its derivation based a word that means to twang a string with the fingers uh and uh and therefore the very derivation of the biblical word for song reminds us and it suggests to us that that that the accompanying of singing uh by the playing of some musical instrument is a normal circumstance of human singing and as long as it only remains a circumstance as long as it doesn't become the main thing as long as we don't have bands that are playing so uh so loudly or displayed so prominently that everybody thinks they're at a rock concert rather than at church then i think i think the use of musical instruments is false as a circumstance of worship we're going to be going to our first break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for sam waldron on the regulative principle of worship our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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welcome back this is chris arnz and if you just tuned us in we're just we're discussing the regulative principle of worship with our guest sam waldron who is the dean of the covenant baptist theological seminary in owensboro to kentucky and uh pastor waldron or dr waldron uh what can you say about what you believe the regulative principle permits and what it prohibits that you may find in many modern -day worship services oh that's a great question um well i think in positions of gallery there's things that i think are absolutely prohibited uh or absolutely commanded that are not practiced and then there are some things that uh that the regular principle i think uh tells us should be prominent in worship and other things that if they should be in worship it should be much less prominent and and and so you can kind of you can kind of kind of put them both in terms of what is uh in terms of precept and that priority um i think that uh some of the things that the regulative principle prohibits is of course a lot of the nonsense that uh you get in churches which bring in uh mimes and clown clown acts and um bell ringing uh bell ringing choirs and all sorts of things into worship and they're brought into worship of of simply to attract crowds and and there's and there's no thought and there's no there's no thought no service uh they're like the people that have fallen that max 19 who did not know whether there was a holy spirit a lot of supposedly even local churches out there that don't have a clue they don't know or that they're not supposed to uh bring things into worship that aren't uh commanded by the word of god so just i'm not sure about that on the other hand how some things that the bible requires five by three steps that are law or deified uh that says to be sent for the exposition proclamation of the word of god um is clearly uh the centerpiece of of the biblical uh command for worship and of the of the regulative principle and and as the preaching becomes more and more abbreviated and less and less centered on the word of god uh more and more than the regulative principle is being ignored and its requirements are being defied uh similarly so the bible is clear the bible's very clear about the need for reading and worship large portions of the word of god i'm sadistic of course people say how large well i'm not in a position to say but i think it's more than one or two verses calling it correct i think that we have to be active active worship it's both of the principles and precepts it's clear that the public reading of scripture is a part of worship another thing that i think is being de -emphasized and let's move more to the idea of priorities is congregational singing the congregational singing is is when it comes to what people call music and what people call uh the congregational singing is the priority of what is the priority of biblical of biblical worship uh and not and not not the band not the organ uh not that not that special music the singing of the whole congregation in praise to god is crucial and that singing um uh has to be rich and and and biblical uh in its content so uh you have uh you have those kind of principles but our day you can you can show up at some worship services and people literally don't seem to know whether they're there to sing or listen to a concert well look at uh biblical worship is not a spectator sport it's participatory and i think it's participatory at every part of it in understanding that in the right way so where where uh uh the uh gospel band or gospel team is so prominently displayed that it looks like a concert uh and where people are out there wondering whether they they should sing or listen where where the the music is played so loudly that you can't hear yourself sing where um the kind of music even if it's it may be in a general sense scriptural the kind of music that's played and sung is more performance type music not the kind of uh the kind of music that can be sung by a congregation this is this all of this uh if it doesn't quite defy the absolute precept of the word of god although in some ways it does it certainly is um is a terrible misplacement of biblical priorities so those are some of the things i would i would emphasize i suppose by way of the necessity of keeping the precept and not i'll just say precept of scripture and by way of some of the clear priorities of scripture by the way anything that you may have done differently when you were speaking it really enhanced uh the the sound of your voice coming through on the interview so i would keep doing what you were just doing at the at the last moment um and um so basically uh unless i'm misinterpreting you it sounds like you believe a lot of churches are involved in what the scriptures prohibit which is called vain worship yes yes yes i do and some of this is done just because they've inherited traditions that that uh somehow they think are biblical of other such traditions are interrupting worship to have a session of glad handing one on one another and in the middle of worship and shaking everybody's hand and greeting everybody i mean uh yeah let's greet one another with a holy kiss but but not in the middle of uh of the worship of god when our focus should be theocentric you know and uh so uh i think that uh that uh there is a lot of vain worship out there uh a lot of it is what can i say um since i've maybe sent a sense of ignorance a lot of it's in a sense of ignorance and and while there's some of it is is a sin that simply is fully ignorant of of the biblical uh doctrine of the regulative principle and of the biblical doctrine of worship and and some of it is uh kind of smug modern contemporary ignorant uh of of contemporary pride that doesn't think we can learn anything from all the churches worship and former generations and we've got the whole thing figured out now yes and i'm assuming that you would agree with me that a lot of people make the error of using their emotions as a litmus litmus test to the presence of the holy spirit yeah and that's of course that's a that's a problem that rages far and wide and creates all sorts of theological and practical problems but the litmus test for the presence of the holy spirit is the word of god and not how we feel about it right and of course you not only have the the folks who are involved in more exuberant and emotional worship like charismatics using that as a litmus test you have people that have actually returned to rome for the same reason because they think that they have a more religious sensation or a more worshipful spirit within them when candles are lit and when chanting is occurring and when bells are ringing and that kind of thing i mean it could be the opposite end of the spectrum but it's the same thing isn't it well yeah a lot of what what's happening here is the rejection of the regulative principle with the emphasis on you know the kind of dimming up the lights the kind of of using of the smoke machines happening is is is not no more no less than a return to rome and their their view you know you know we have to do things that to make the worship more devotional you know and uh john owen a long time ago uh said the right thing about that what will god leave us with a worship and scripture that's not sufficiently devotional um my my it's just uh it's just it's just like that and uh the thing why do you think that this issue is so extremely important some some people are going to say that you're really just trying to uh be a cosmic kill joy here uh you're trying to dampen the the uh liveliness and the joy that people are feeling and experiencing in their worship and they also say hey the things that we do in worship are in the bible we dance in our worship because david danced and dancing was a part of the old testament worship and they do all sorts of other things like use incense perhaps or other things that they can find in the bible and when people are worshiping how do you respond to those kinds of comments first of all it was rome who went back to the old testament to find the right way to worship it was the reformation that said no no the old testament ceremonial worship was done away in christ and replaced with a more simple and spiritual form of worship so let's not forget where rome got a lot of its ideas and where's where's dance coming from where's incense coming from where all the loud bands and music coming from coming from the old testament well i mean there's something very similar about where the two are coming from i think i think some people should pause and think about that for a while before they just plunge one time along in that direction and adopt a hermeneutic that just kind of thinks you can funnel everything from old testament worship and pile them up top of new testament worship so i mean that that's uh that's why i kind of my reaction to that um you know oh but i'm sorry brother i i lost the first part of your question i didn't want to respond to something else there too but i'm trying to remember what you said well basically i was just saying that uh why is this this uh discussion on the regulative principle of worship such an important thing in christianity today oh well here's where i'm coming from here's my concern brother and i think it touches on what you're asking about um there's been this uh this uh flood of uh of uh new forms of worship um coming in via the charismatic movement which has been uh which is a global movement and very popular and of course not uh even in its best forms uh very scriptural and um and and so there have been these new forms of worship in this very popular global movement with more and more been infecting more traditional churches and uh and so i think uh that's something of where it's coming from and and you see my concern for in terms of uh talking about and preaching on writing about the regulative principle my concern is is is to say look uh i don't i don't think we want to um equate the regular principle with traditionalism i don't want i don't want conservative christians saying we're rejecting all of this we like our we like our traditions better we're just going to stick with our traditions okay or or i don't want other people coming from a new calvinist direction saying all of this stuff is just traditional that's all it is we're tossing it out and there's nothing wrong with adopting what amounts to very charismatic forms of worship and what i'm trying to do in my chapters and beyond going beyond the five points what i'm trying to do is say hey this whole thing is not about traditionalism either accepting it or rejecting it what we need to do is go back to the bible you need to go back to the bible and and and and take a fresh look at the biblical basis for the historic regular principle of the reformed tradition and when we've done that that may that may not leave us completely in our our nice conservative baptist traditions that may not leave us with our nice conservative evangelical unity it may take us it may take us someplace a whole lot better uh and it may make us uh a qualified way at some point except uh certain objects in contemporary hymns that are rich scriptural and gospel centered and it may another point admit other places cause us to reject trends that are going on but the key thing and what i'm pleading for is let's go back to the bible and back to the reformed tradition with it and the biblical basis of it let's see what the bible actually says about what worship is supposed to be and let's not just engage in this either throwing the baby out with the bath water or refusing to even consider if our bath water needs to be replaced and let's let's let's look at what the bible says this is why in my going beyond the five five points i i have to take issue with exclusive psalmody and with uh with non -instrumentalism because i i believe that that is uh a traditional reaction uh and um i i don't think you've been supported biblically on the other hand it's why i'm saying that some of the redefiners uh and rejecters of the regular have have really uh systematically ignored a whole slice of biblical teaching that that's crucial and i think it's inexcusable there are some uh churches some of them might even be calvinistic who think that the only thing that's required in the gathered uh corporate worship of of a local church in regard to the scriptures are the reading of it and the teaching of it and some will say that preaching is something that you would primarily do to those outside of the four walls of your church that they would they would actually say some that preaching is not a requirement of of new testament worship within the corporate uh gathering of the church well how do you respond to that to those who are separating the preaching and outdoor evangelism and so on from preaching inside the corporate worship you know um paul's description of of of the preaching of god's word um first of all christian would never argue that preaching is only for the church but once you say that you haven't said that preaching is not for the church all the biblical words for preaching meaning meaning to herald and announce god's message in an authoritative way uh and and that kind of heralding and announcing is very contrary to to the dialoguing that is so popular in my day the heralding and announcing is is monological it's not dialogical okay um and similarly the preaching has a likeness authenticity and directness that is not it's not drama either some people want to argue for drama on the basis of of uh being a way of teaching and preaching but look at uh preaching and teaching as a directness and a uh and an authenticity that is contrary i'm all i like drama but but the bible but drama is not one of the elements of parts of worship drama is ruined if as you say it becomes preaching all right preaching and drama are two different things two different methods of communication preaching uh specifies a certain method of communication that's direct authentic and and and in some sense monologically um now having said all of that uh paul in first timothy 4 13 tells them at the end i think he's clearly talking about public worship continuing the reading and the exhortation and then the teaching well um i wouldn't deny that that may be used as a proof that for the public reading of scripture i do think that it's clear that he is saying that the public proclamation of the word of god has to have uh essentially about elements it has to have the reading and explanation of scripture it has to have doctrine or teaching based upon that scripture that is to say you must you must raise from that particular scripture uh a general truth or doctrine of the word of god and then you have to exhort on the basis of it which contains both warning and admonition as well as consolation and encouragement well that's preaching uh and i i'm not sure what kind of uh definition of preaching people are working with um when they when they say we shouldn't be preaching to god's people oh first of all they're not all god's people second of all even god's people need to be preached with the the argument i've heard that that i just mentioned is is more prevalent in the house church movement that even some even some of those people are calvinistic where they believe in preaching like open air preaching but when they're in the gathered worship they believe they basically run their their worship services very much like a bible study where there's just sitting down around in a circle teaching and people people can uh ask questions during the uh the teaching and so on well i i just i just don't think that's justifiable i think christianity 14 is clear i think actually in 41 or 42 uh 43 it's clear that they continue to be apostles preaching uh what what that what that means is the apostle got up and he taught people he didn't sit around a table and share and ask them their opinions and how they interpreted he got up and authoritatively taught and uh and so i just think there is um a rejection of the christian ministry in the house church movement that uh will build terrible people we we have an anonymous listener in cumberland county pennsylvania that wants to know uh is it ever wrong for a woman to lead worship i believe that a woman should never teach or have authority over a man as paul clearly taught but does someone leading the singing or worship violate that yes okay that was look brother um the key passages here are presumably 2 8 to 12 1st corinthians 14 34 and 35 and um yeah you know if you have if a lot of the way you're going to answer this question depends upon your view of worship and your view of the church if you're trending in a very informalist kind of view of worship if you don't see worship as the worship of the church as a specific event that that has a different characteristic qualities and spiritual dimensions than other events in the world and even other so -called spiritual events you're going to say what's wrong with a woman doing this but but um when you talk about leading worship you're talking about uh you're talking about something that in the reformed tradition is mainly led by ministers okay uh and uh and i and while i wouldn't insist on that i do think the bible is clear that it should be mainly led by men and ministers and secondly i think the bible is clear that that it should be by men uh uh even when it comes to leading in prayer in the formal meetings of christ church paul says i want the male i want the adult males in every place to pray that's the literal translation i want the adult males in every place to pray lifting up holy hands without wrath and dissension and the whole passage there is based upon a distinction between men and women and that implies that he doesn't want the adult females uh leading it leading in prayer in the public bishop of god's people uh and so uh and and to put women in that place of prominence even though uh we live in egalitarian society that more and more ask why can't we do this why can't we do this why can't we do this well again that whole question is contrary to the regulative principle which which requires that we ask uh what does the bible say that we should do and and requires us to respond to god's word as as sons and not defensively so uh in my view no i think it's wrong for women to be put in a place of leadership when it comes to public prayer when it comes to the the reading of the tiny actual saying when it comes to reading the scripture and people can say well you're way out of the charge of our time uh my response is i'm way in accord with the whole reform tradition for the last 400 years now how would you react you said some things earlier in a derogatory fashion or a prohibitive fashion against bell choirs and such a thing do you believe that it is ever appropriate for the gathered church when it's outside of the normal worship service that they may have every week where they may have a fellowship gathering of some kind in the church building and do things like bell choirs and on and on oh that's great that you asked that because it's a crucial issue everything i'm saying about a regular principle is based upon a fundamental distinction between the formal meeting of the church and informal gatherings of the community of the church um i believe i would not want personally uh things like that which i think are entertainment driven or sentimentalist driven children and bell ringing and so forth done in the public worship of god in a formal meeting of the church i don't think there's any precedent or basis for doing that but in in a community gathering uh after the evening service on a sunday evening where you have a meal uh and then you may have a sacred concert one of the children's god children's choir that rings bells all over the place it's not a problem not a problem uh just just like it's not a problem for the church community to show up at a softball game or the for the church community to either have a picnic all of that's fine but it's not it's not the formal worship of god's people so as long as it's not in a formal meeting of the church i think we have to be really careful we're going to if we're going to say we believe the regular principles but that's going to require us to make a very clear distinction between what the church is and what the church is not and the church is not every informal gathering of churches well i want to thank you so much dr waldron for being our guest today i'm looking forward to you coming back as a guest on the iron sharpens iron and i just want to let our listeners know that your website for the covenant baptist theological seminary is cbts i'm sorry cbt seminary .org

cbt seminary .org that's cbt for covenant baptist t .s

for theological theological seminary cbt seminary .org thank you so much for joining us on iron sharpens iron and we look forward to you coming back thanks brother i enjoyed it good talking with you you too well god bless you and uh coming up as i said earlier we're going to have pastor max donor he is going to be giving some insight on the recent horrific shootings in oregon he himself is a pastor in oregon in nearby lebanon and we look forward to hearing what he has to say today that's pastor max donor coming up right after these messages so don't go away we're going to be right back with more of iron sharpens iron right after this word from our sponsors linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

that's linbrookbaptist .org thrive in financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics contact me mike gallagher financial at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the thriving difference we know we were made for so much more than ordinary life lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story we were made to thrive charles headings burgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio attention coin collectors and investors long island galleries of wading river new york has brilliant uncirculated 19th century morgan silver dollars for only 54 dollars per coin with free shipping and handling for a limited time there's a 40 coin limit so order now while supplies last call 888 -260 -8111 888 -260 -8111 visa mastercard discover and american express welcome price is subject to change so call now at 888 -260 -8111 888 -260 -8111 if you prefer ordering your brilliant uncirculated 19th century morgan silver dollars by check mail it today to long island galleries 9 susan drive wading river new york 11792 that's long island galleries 9 susan drive wading river new york 11792 remember they're only 54 dollars per coin with free shipping and handling and a 40 coin limit new york state residents must add sales tax long island galleries is honored to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio see the long island galleries display ad at iron sharpens iron radio .com

welcome back this is chris arns and if you've just tuned us in uh for our first hour we had dr sam waldron of covenant baptist theological seminary in owensboro kentucky and i kept screwing up the website for them let me say it one more time it's cbt seminary .org

cbt for covenant baptist theological seminary .org and we look forward to have dr waldron back in the near future but right now we are going to be speaking about something that i'm sure everybody uh here listening today has heard about and perhaps has heard about at great length and that is the recent shootings in oregon and we have today with us a local pastor in that area who is going to give his own insights how we as christians should respond when things like this occur that are often the the spark conversations around water coolers and coffee clotches and picnics and barbecues and all kinds of gatherings with not only believers but believers in a mixture of unbelievers and it's always good to have a good biblical answer and be ready to give an answer as the apostle paul tells us whenever we are confronted to have an answer for our faith and we have the privilege today for the very first time ever of having pastor max donor on our program he has been a reformed baptist pastor for 32 years he subscribes to the 1689 london baptist confession of faith and pastor max began sovereign grace church of sacramento california in 1982 and was pastor there for seven years in later years the church was renamed emmanuel baptist church it is currently pastored by robert briggs and robert gonzalez jr max began sovereign grace bible church in lebanon oregon in 1990 and has pastored there for the last 25 years max has been married to his wife kathy for 40 years and they have four adult children and sovereign grace bible church's website is sovereigngracebible .com

that's sovereigngracebible .com and they have a worldwide listening audience in over 100 different countries through the 2000 plus sermons they have posted on sermonaudio .com

where over a thousand sermons a month are downloaded across the globe that's very impressive and it's our honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron pastor max donor thank you chris it's good to be here and it's a privilege and honor to be on your program yes and i want to right away give our listeners an email address that if they care to join us on the air for the question of their own for pastor max our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

that's chrisarnson at gmail .com and please give us your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the usa and please only remain anonymous if it's in regard to a personal or private matter well first of all before we even get into the discussion here pastor max give us an abbreviated version of how you came to christ personally yeah i was raised in a roman catholic home from the time i was an infant we were serious catholics we went to church every sunday i went to um you know first communion confirmation confession um i served as an altar boy uh for a short period of time uh and i always feared god and had a sense of wanting to have a relationship with god um however i didn't have any idea how to achieve that um and so i was uh 16 years old i was working for an individual um and um he asked me uh if uh you know what was the most important thing in the world to me and i said well you know the most important thing in the world to me is is is to go to heaven and he says well um you know do you uh do you have any confidence that you're going to achieve that and i said well uh i said i'm trying hard if that counts for anything and he said well that doesn't count for a thing and he began to share the gospel with me and over a couple of weeks we talked back and forth about you know what the catholic church taught and what my understanding of that was and he shared with me what the gospel was and and you always knew that jesus died on the cross because he was always on the crucifix in the front of the church but i never knew why and i never realized that there was a substitutionary atonement there for my sins and so at the end of the time i um felt convicted of my need to be reconciled to god through faith in christ and so i prayed and repented of my sins and asked the lord jesus to save me from my sins and you know i was was born again as a result of the grace of god and things have never been the same since eventually i left the catholic church as i read my bible and saw that their teachings were not congruent with the teachings of the scripture and ultimately the lord led me into the ministry and here i am today yes and we have to remind our listeners uh because i know that i do have catholic listeners and listeners in various uh religious groups and some and none uh but we have to remind them that this is not a but all about hate or bigotry when we speak this way it's about wanting to believe in truth and wanting to if you believe it declare it and uh obviously even if if we believe that such things as the mass and other things that happen in the roman catholic church are deeply heretical uh if a catholic believes that these are real things they should realize that the difference that we have with them is significant and it's not something that should be kept quiet about and so obviously if you believe in what's true uh and if you believe what you have as a doctrinal standard if you believe that is from god then you shouldn't keep your mouth shut about it correct that's correct yeah um i certainly didn't mean to offend any of your listeners but just we're chronicling my own spiritual journey oh yes well that's that's why i said that is because inevitably uh i always offend somebody in some some way shape or form whether whether it's on the left or the right uh sure uh but anyway uh what is the uh the demographic makeup of the area where you pastor and where these horrific shootings recently took place yeah the demographic area is rural um oregon is sparsely populated there's only three million people in the entire state and a million of those are concentrated in portland um so the roseburg area where the shootings took place is a rural area roseburg is a small town um and um the primary industry around there uh used to be logging um logging has fallen on hard times due to environmental restrictions uh and as a result um you know it's uh it's a community that is trying to through education help its uh people find a better way of life um than uh then you know the industry that they used to rely on and i think that um core community college is at the center of that effort and at the heart of the town and it's very sad to me that this occurred when you know people are going there to try to get an education to um get a new vocation and you notice that uh several of the people who were killed in the shooting were older people um you know some in their 30s some in their 40s um and trying to uh to make a better life for themselves yes and obviously uh we've all heard perhaps you could separate some of what actually happened from uh folklore that has already uh been discussed but uh we've heard that uh people were being shot deliberately because they refused to reject their faith in christ is that uh correct that's correct um the shooter um would uh ask people if they were christians or not and if they said they were he would shoot them in the head uh if they remained silent or said that they weren't then he shot them in the legs and so apparently his intent was to single out christians in particular and having identified them his intent was to kill them in particular and how many people did lose their lives that day nine people lost their lives and then the shooter took his own life and uh what have you learned about the shooter himself about his background yeah the shooter himself um is from a single parent home um he um was young 26 years of age um he is um someone who uh has severe psychological problems he wasn't able to be in regular school and so um he wound up uh going to uh an alternative school in order to try to uh get through he went to the switzer learning center in torrance california for a while and that's a school that teaches students with emotional disturbances and special needs and autism and those kind of things so apparently he was um socially and or psychologically disturbed and um he was somewhat of a loner on his uh myspace uh website he only had two friends one of which was a female the other of which was um a sympathizer with islamic jihadi um causes and um so um that's kind of what we know about him at this point in time um he um delivered a manifesto of some kind through one of the students to a police officer um and they are going over that but they've not released that so as far as his motives go um you know we don't know the whole story yet there's more information to come out but that's what we know about the shooters so far right and there is enough actual islamic terrorism going around without us inventing it just because somebody with a serious mental problem may have some kind of personal sympathy or empathy with islam that's exactly right there's no indication this man was an islamist or a muslim right and uh so here we have this horrific tragedy and you have all kinds of reactions and uh first of all i have even heard uh from some brethren in christ even some who have theological similarities to you and i uh who are theologically reformed uh these particular individuals that i've heard from are from overseas and they've seen these kinds of things that happen here uh at at its root they see as a as a large cause or reason in their minds is the the american love affair with guns uh how do you respond to that yeah um american love affair with guns a gun is a tool um you know i have guns everyone i know has guns guns are a part of our life um um just like everyone has a shovel everyone has a rake everyone has a wheelbarrow everyone has a gun uh we use them for hunting you mean in europe in your particular area not everybody has a gun that's correct yeah we use them for hunting we use them for uh target practice and we use them for self -defense and uh other than that they lay where they where they are put uh in a safe place and um so yeah americans um have a second amendment right to keep and to bear arms uh we have enjoyed that right since the beginning uh in fact the american revolution was sparked by an effort at gun control when the british were going to come to concord and seize the the weapons of the local militia and uh you know it's been the case that um tyrants have always tried to take the guns away from the people and disarm them so that then they could oppress them and or slaughter them and so we are very uh much committed to keeping our guns not because we want to use them to harm people but to prevent people from harming us if and when they choose to do so and um as lord acton said in the 19th century very appropriately i think uh power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely if if a certain group of individuals namely the elite in government leadership are the only ones with guns that's a that's a very dangerous recipe isn't it well it is and that's exactly what the problem was at umpqua college is one person had a gun the other people didn't you had a tremendous imbalance of power and therefore the man with the absolute power used that absolute power to oppress and to destroy and to injure those who didn't have that power power needs to be evenly distributed among the people and uh if everyone had equal power then you wouldn't have a situation where one person would be using superior power to hurt a person who had inferior power and that's what guns do is is they make everybody unequal you know you have an 80 year old grandmother that weighs 96 pounds and you have a 28 year old thug that weighs 180 pounds and has been working out how can she ever defend herself against such a person if she doesn't have the means of self -defense and i i think that the listeners need to understand that the sixth commandment says thou shall not kill and what that commandment does is it gives us not only a responsibility not to kill other people but also a right to our own lives and if the right to life means anything it means that you have to have the means to defend that life that are appropriate to the situation in which you're in and so therefore in order to create an equality of power so that one group or individual don't oppress or harm the other group or individual there needs to be an equal ability to use a force to defend oneself and so that's why it's important to have guns evenly distributed among the people so that no one feels superior to others and therefore they would be much less likely to try to initiate um a regime of harm against them and i want to repeat our email address here if you'd like to join us in the air with a question our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com we do already have a listener in worcester massachusetts gary who asks where did the pastor get his information that the shooter asked the question if the victims were christians did he read this or did he receive this firsthand from witnesses uh did firsthand witnesses inform him um i have no personal contact with any of the witnesses i read that information that information was reported widely in the media from one of the victims who was in the room and who was shot she reported that this individual was asking people if they were christians and then upon receiving a reply shot them in the fashion that she reported so a firsthand witness uh said that this is what happened and the newspapers and the media picked it up and reported it and that's where i got my information from and as you were saying that guns are tools and the majority the vast majority of people who own them are law by law abiding citizens uh just like automobiles we have uh really frightening statistics when it comes to automobile deaths that occur every day and obviously it would be a horrible thing if the government of the united states or anywhere else restricted all of its citizens to using public transportation that would actually be probably impossible because of the sheer numbers of people right and in this country and is that a good comparison yes it is there's 108 million gun owners in the united states and you know less than one -tenth of one percent of people use guns uh to harm other people with and so this it's a tiny minority of people who use guns inappropriately and um you know somehow the uncontrolled psychiatric symptoms of one man who inappropriately uses a gun should not justify curtailing the liberties of the other 108 million people who have them and use them lawfully it's just like a drunk driver will use a car to kill someone does that mean we should take cars away from everybody the focus needs to be chris not on the instrument the focus needs to be on the motive of the person using that instrument wrongly it's like you can use a knife to do surgery and save someone's life or you can use that same knife to stab them in the heart and kill them and the issue isn't the knife the issue is the motive of the man holding it and using it and why he has it and what purpose for which he's employing it and if we don't address what the motive of the person was who did this and try to um solve what's driving it taking the instruments away isn't going to solve the problem and it's also going to be uh less likely for us as fellow citizens in this country to come to the aid of someone who is being murdered by a crazed gunman if we are ourselves not armed and incapable of using the firearm precisely and uh don't you think though there is having said all that a very uh a very dangerous thing that some christians have done where they have mingled together christianity and politics and and conservatism and republicanism and guns and ammo magazine and the american rifle association all kind of together in a soup where that that is what christianity means if you follow what i'm saying i do yeah and i think that um you know there's a certain segment of people who you know god god america and guns you know they that's that's the new trinity and you know for the biblically thinking christian guns are a tiny part of his life if they're any part of his life whatsoever i mean it's an area of christian liberty a person may choose to own and use or to not do it um the vast majority of what we're involved in is preaching the gospel it's trying to lead people into reconciliation with god through repentance of sin and faith in jesus christ and um you know we as christians recognize that um jesus said you know if you don't have a sword so your cloak can get one he authorized his disciples to possess the means of self -defense but how much of the gospel of jesus involves that particular fact you know it's a tiny part of our faith it's a tiny part of our of what we have to do and it's just simply you know christ recognition that we live in a depraved world that as the disciples traveled from place to place they would be beset by highwaymen you know who wanted to rob them or or or harm them and they needed the means of self -defense and so um i think it's important for us to understand that uh weapons are not what we're about it's just a tiny part of implementing um the sixth commandment as we go through life and uh i'm going to repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air it's chris arnzen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and also uh some of the critics of uh those opposing gun control laws uh they are right in some of the accusations they've made about the american culture being fascinated with gratuitous violence in the media and in film and so on don't you think that that uh can reach a sinful level if somebody is totally enthralled and excited and enthusiastic about uh witnessing especially at great uh length gratuitous violence and television and movies and that kind of a thing i absolutely believe that i mean when we allow our children to watch on average seven hours of television a day that's filled with sex and violence you know that isn't fit for adult consumption it's it's no wonder that they think that this is appropriate behavior i think it's imperative for us to uh recognize that um uh the violent video games the violent movies um normalize and desensitize people to the evil of murder and what you have here is an individual who uh had some sort of a of a sense of uh disgruntlement i'm not sure exactly what it was but he had some sort of a sense of disgruntlement and he felt like the appropriate way to satisfy that was to grab a gun and kill people um you know when i was young chris um we had the ten commandments and we had prayer we had bible reading in my public school and you know what we didn't have we didn't have school shootings we didn't have police officers on campus uh in our local high school um they now have a full -time resource officer they call him and what he is is a cop with a gun walking the halls and it's like okay so you throw out the ten commandments you throw out prayer you throw out the bible and what do you have to bring in to replace it a cop with a gun because now kids don't have any moral uh standards or guidelines by which to live their lives um we teach our children that there's no laws of morality that transcend us we teach them that everything's relative we teach them actions don't have consequences we teach them that you know your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth and then we wonder why they behave the way they do we're going to be going to a break right now and if you'd like to join us on the air our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence especially if you live outside of the usa and we look forward to hearing from you that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back hi i'm chris arnson of iron sharpens iron radio are you a christian looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thrive in financial they're not your typical financial services provider they're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps their nearly 2 .4

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charles haddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid ground books .com

that's solid -ground books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio welcome back this is chris arnds and if you've just tuned us in we are interviewing a pastor max donor today for a christian response to these horrific shootings that we have all learned about that have uh what did take place in roseburg oregon very recently and i just want to let you know that tomorrow we're going to have also another local pastor in that area from the orthodox presbyterian church in roseburg he is going to address this situation as well from a christian standpoint and a pastoral standpoint and so that we get as much as we can as far as a christian reaction to this because so many people are going to be speaking about this in the days and weeks ahead i'm sure so make sure you also turn in tune in tomorrow to hear pastor jeff scott of the orthodox presbyterian church discuss that that's the covenant grace church of roseburg oregon and also tomorrow we have todd freel of wretched tv and wretched radio for the very first time uh tomorrow he is going to be discussing his book jesus unmasked the truth will shock you that's todd freel of wretched tv and radio and last but not least tomorrow right after todd freel we have mike gadosh the founder of solid ground christian books letting us know what new things that he has in store for us as far as literary gems that solid ground christian books has brought back into print but once again our email address here is chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com we have arnie in perry county pennsylvania who asks you pastor max i live in an area where i have encountered a number of mennonites and amish people and brethren in christ individuals who are pacifists and they point to jesus and the disciples not using violence to counteract the threat of violence that they may receive they were merely peaceful and non -violent people it seems clear from the react to the pacifist argument against things that you have said today yeah the argument i would make against pacifism um is simply that pacifism um is a misinterpretation of some of the things jesus said for example when jesus was in the garden of gethsemane and peter drew out his sword and struck the high priest erof jesus told him to put the sword away and the point that jesus was making there is not that self -defense was inappropriate but that the use of the sword is not the means whereby the kingdom of god is advanced the weapons of our warfare are spiritual weapons weapons like prayer and the word of god and the preaching of the gospel and so we don't use the sword for example like islam does to advance the kingdom of god um nevertheless the use of the sword is appropriate uh in terms of personal self -defense against an aggressor who is attempting to take my life or that of my families and the prohibition of the commandment is against committing murder it's not against killing in fact god has authorized the state in particular to kill people as an act of capital punishment god has also authorized the state to use instruments of war in order to defeat enemies who would try to conquer the nation and so government rights are just collective rights and individuals have that same right to defend themselves and prevent themselves or their loved ones from being killed by evil people so pacifism is really a denial of the duty to protect one's family and oneself from an evil person who wants to take your life right it would be quite a horrific scene to conjure up in your mind of a father and husband standing there in the living room watching a group of hoodlums who have broken into their home abuse and torture and murder the entire family while he stood by and did absolutely nothing but preached to them or what have you that's correct yeah we have a duty to provide for our own and among the things we are to provide for our own is not only food and clothing and shelter but also protection do you think a lot of this uh immediate reaction that we hear from our president from liberal politicians and from others that immediately goes to gun control is the solution because guns are the problem uh do you think that a lot of times and i don't want to broad brush because i said earlier there are christians even even some good and faithful theologically sound ones that have a problem with the rampant gun ownership and gun violence in america but do you think that all too often this is a way to deflect the issue from the sinfulness of men and treat men as if uh we are uh somehow uh you know it's not sin that is responsible for these horrific acts it's the possessions that the sinner has in his hands but yeah that's that's exactly correct as i said earlier you know you can use an instrument for good or you can use it for evil the problem isn't with the instrument with the individual who is wielding it and the trouble with politicians is that when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail and so the only tool they have in their arsenal are making laws and so if there's a problem they think oh we'll make another law um and making another law isn't necessarily the solution to a problem sometimes the problem can't be addressed by laws and one of the great problems is that we have a president and we have a culture that is constantly denigrating christian morality and is constantly denigrating principles of behavior and self -restraint and as a result the culture is constantly being coarsened and the culture is constantly moving away from any transcendent sense of accountability to god or any recognition that self -restraint is required and so as a result what you have is is people expressing their depravity without restraint and we have these kinds of eruptions like we had at umqua community college and the reason for that is because in the garden of eden when satan tempted adam and eve and we fell and became depraved we begin to function according to the will of satan and satan is a murderer from the beginning we see that when cain killed abel and murders have been happening ever since and so the solution to this problem really is the gospel had that young man become a christian you know he would have never behaved in that fashion if he feared god and if he recognized the authority of the law of god over his life um you know he would not have committed that horrific crime and so um you know when they try to blame the instrument what they're saying is the individual isn't responsible and that is moving directly away from the proper solution to the problem now how do you how do you respond to those who would very quickly say in reply to you what you just said are you kidding me if he was a christian he wouldn't have done these things we have a history filled with centuries of the streets running red with blood because of christians murdering other people for not being christians how do you respond to that kind of thing well i think you have to ask yourself just because someone professes to be a christian doesn't mean that they are um and the bible says that you know murderers don't have eternal life abiding in them and so the people who claim to be christians and practice non -christian violence on that scale i think one has to question whether they legitimately are in fact christians right and in fact i guess this is a time for we who are baptists to pat ourselves on the back because historically we've never been involved as a people in the shedding of blood in order to gain converts or to punish heretics right now i'm not talking about individual baptists who may be insane or evil and may not even be christian just because they call themselves baptist but i'm talking about as a movement the baptists were never involved in that type of persecution right right exactly and well you said you seem like you're about to say something uh no go ahead and uh so we have already established that the total depravity of man is at root here uh all men according to what we believe as theologically reformed christians calvinists we are born uh totally depraved and the only reason why men aren't as bad as they could be is because of this restraint of the holy spirit and god in the lives of even those who are not christians i mean god and his sovereignty is obviously restraining uh even the evil of this earth because if he were not uh we would not even be able to walk outside our doors without being murdered or we wouldn't even be safe in our homes yeah yeah thank the lord for the restraint of evil on the part of god uh in in the hearts of depraved humans and you know i think that's one of the reasons why god brought the flood was because you know there was just this uh violence filled the earth it says and um and so you know god cleansed the earth and and established the new age covenant and human government in order to restrain be an instrument in god's hand to restrain evil and thank the lord for our police officers thank the lord for a civil authority that puts awe and fear into the hearts of of men who have no fear of god and restrains them from committing evil yes and perhaps i misused the third person of the trinity the holy spirit in regard to the lost i would assume this would be more the restraining of the evil of lost individuals would be more uh of just the the act of a sovereign god restraining them rather than particularly the holy spirit sure fine right and uh so what is the thing that we really have to convey to people when they are talking about this which prevents us from coming off uh like well you we're better than you we're christians and we're better than you and you have to become like us because if if everybody were more like us then there would be less people being murdered that's the way very often liberals or just those who are content in their sin and do not want to have their conscience stirred by us they will often you know look at us like we're all just a bunch of hypocritical pharisees who think that we're better than everybody else but that can't be the message that we are giving off even if unintentionally can it no it can't and the thing of it is is we are not better than others it's just that god has regenerated our hearts he's put his law into our hearts and minds and as a result we have a spiritual transcendent motive for restraining the evil that remains in our own hearts um you know we're all tempted to lie and to steal and yes sometimes to kill uh when people make us angry and rage rises and yet what is it that um you know speaking from my own personal experience keeps me from acting on those sinful impulses and desires it's the grace of god it's the word of god it's the threatenings of god and it's the promises of god it's a desire to please him and to serve him and to say i'm not my own i'm bought with a price i have to serve god with my body and my spirit i can't do what my impulses tell me to do i need to do what his word and his will tells me to do and as far as the unsaved goes um you know as we speak to them you know what we tell them is look um we're no better than you we're just redeemed by christ and as a result of humbling ourselves before him repenting of our sins and embracing jesus christ as our lord and savior he has transformed our lives and this is why um we believe that this is the solution to problem i mean when you go into prisons and you have prison ministries those who embrace christ those who follow the christian teachings have a much much lower recidivism rate than those who do not clearly christianity restrains evil behavior and therefore uh it's not a matter of superiority it's just a matter of saying here's the solution to the problem of human depravity um unsaved person what is your solution to the problem of human depravity is it more laws is it taking away guns is it psychotropic drugs um they don't have a solution uh they're thrashing around trying to say oh we need more laws that's not a solution to this problem the solution to this problem ultimately is the transformation of the human heart through the grace of god through jesus christ and apart from that this problem is only going to get worse and that's why the gospel is the solution to america's social problems amen and uh one of the things that we inevitably will be discussing when we are sitting around the barbecue or wherever we are talking with believers and unbelievers alike they may be believers who are less calvinistic than we are or anti -calvinist uh but the issue of the theodicy uh comes into play uh we were talking before about god even restraining in his sovereignty the evil of lost sinful men otherwise we could be nowhere on this planet and be safe and yet god only uh at some times uh restrains uh completely violence but he often will release that grip of restraint and let the wicked person act violently and freely perhaps not to the extent that he would have otherwise if god were not present but you have all these horrific murders and massacres and and so on happening all over the globe for centuries and and right through our present day you can't turn on the news without hearing about murders and so on and wars how could a good and loving god and a holy god and a righteous god who is supposed to be in control of all things really exist in light of all these things happening yeah you know i think we have to go back to the character of god you know god is all good and god is all powerful and yet evil exists and the question is why and the answer to that why uh can get very complex but i want to just simplify it and i think we have to say this god has morally sufficient reasons for the evil that exists and when we say well what are those reasons god doesn't supply us with an answer to that question he simply says to us you need to trust me and my character that the judge of all the earth is doing what is right and though men engage in evil behavior and they mean it for evil god means it for good and so what i say to people when they ask the question why i say to them you know i don't think you're going to get an answer to that question this side of eternity but i think what you can do is trust god's heart when you can't trace out his reasons god can be trusted to do the right thing even when it seems like not doing the right thing so it's not so important to know all the answers as it is to know the work person who does know all of those answers and to simply trust him that in his goodness and in his wisdom he has valid reasons for doing what he is doing and therefore what we need to do is trust him instead of demanding an explanation out of him an explanation which by the way he does not owe us and so i think we need to have the attitude of job when he says though he slays me yet will i trust him and so i think the answer to the problem of evil in this world is simply learning to trust the character of god and the goodness of god without demanding an explanation out of god as to the wise and the wherefores of every situation and the reason why we can trust the character and the goodness of god is because he has displayed it beyond dispute in the giving of his son on the cross as god gave us his only begotten son he demonstrated his love beyond dispute and beyond question when he provided redemption for us out of his love and mercy and goodness he displayed his character to us beyond dispute and beyond question and therefore when these kinds of events occur instead of saying why god or how could you god our proper response is one of humility it's one of trust and it's one of patient waiting on god to in the day of judgment vindicate himself in for the reasons why he did what he did and also for him to bring justice to those situations that seem so absent in this point in history and so we need to have a humility we need to have a patience and we need to have a trust and that's the proper response to the problem of evil not trying to explain all the wise and the wherefores right to how it comes to pass right and at the end of the day will not the judge of all the earth do what is right amen and you very often will have the arminian christian or apologist those who do not believe that all events in heaven and on earth took place due to the divine ordination of god the the plan of god and so on those who reject that will say when they explain these things well god doesn't want us to be robots therefore he gives us free will and he therefore allows those to exercise that free will and unfortunately since we're sinners those here on this earth very often wind up murdering each other and doing all kinds of horrible things and god will not intervene all the time because that will violate our freedom and they will very often speak of the free will of man almost in an idolatrous sense as if that's the most important thing uh that that god has gifted to his creation in the human race but um that that is not the correct way of explaining it because it's not even true is it no it certainly isn't um you know when people talk about free will um god doesn't have even have a free will in the sense in which they speak the scriptures tell us god cannot lie right god cannot deny himself and so the point is our will is in bondage to our mind and to our affections and what our mind sees is reasonable and affections is desirable our will chooses and you know with god you know his nature dictates his choices with us our nature dictates our choices and that's why we need a new nature so we'll make better choices and that happens in his gracious act of regeneration amen and uh i really want you to unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave this program in the wake of this really horrific tragedy that has occurred in oregon you know i what i want to leave with my listeners is this is that all of these events in fact every event in life needs to be interpreted in light of the cross um we need to bring all of these events to the cross and recognize that number one the cause of these events is the fall the solution to these events is the redemptive work of christ and it says in first john 3 8 that for this cause with the son of god manifested he might destroy the works of the devil and the good news of the gospel is that these kind of events are going to come to an end and that jesus christ is going to bring a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness and within which there will never be any uh murders or or or lying or stealing or or any of these harmful sinful acts so keep your eyes not on the event but on the cross keep your eyes not on the present but on eternity and recognize that god has provided a solution to these problems in and through the gospel amen and i'm i'm sure that inevitably eventually uh some folks there in oregon are going to either through this live broadcast or through these subsequent podcasts that are archived on my website they're going to want to refer people to a good bible believing church in that area and i know that i can trust sovereign grace bible church for the recommendation that was given to me by men of god that i trust and know and i know that your website is sovereigngracebible .com

sovereigngracebible .com any other words of invitation that you'd like to offer for people in the area yeah we're in central oregon we're just south of salem just north of eugene just east of albany and we have people coming from all those cities to our church and so we would invite anyone who hears and needs a good local church to attend to to come and visit us and my phone number is on the website and they can feel free to call me and ask any questions they would like great once again that website is sovereigngracebible .com

sovereigngracebible .com and don't forget that tomorrow we're going to have some more christian insight on this specific horrific tragedy that has occurred in oregon with the orthodox presbyterian pastor in roseburg oregon giving us some of his own wisdom from the word of god that he has gleaned from the scriptures and so please tune in tomorrow for our program not only with with the orthodox presbyterian pastor which is covenant grace church in roseburg oregon but also remember that todd freel will be on tomorrow right after him todd freel we're going to be speaking about his book jesus unmasked the truth will shock you and immediately following todd freel we're going to have mike gadosh of solid ground christian books on the program also tell your family friends and loved ones that on wednesday we are going to have michael haken for the very first time on this broadcast michael haken is a very well -known christian historian and author and he is also particularly a reformed baptist and he will be on this wednesday we're looking forward to that and we've also got an interesting program on thursday where we have people from both sides of the two kingdoms debate that has arisen within the reform faith we will have folks involved in both sides of that argument including my dear friend pastor bill shishko of the orthodox presbyterian church in franklin square new york he will be on that program with others as well on thursday and then we're going to have pastor jeff durbin who has been on this broadcast uh before he is the pastor of apologia church in tempe arizona he also has several black belts in martial arts and in some ways in a very similar vein to what we were discussing today that not only is gun ownership completely acceptable with christianity and so is the learning of defending yourself through martial arts as long as none of the false eastern religions are mixed with that but anyway we hope you tune into all of these programs and we look forward to having you pastor max donor back in the very near future and once again i know your website is solid is i'm sorry sovereign grace bible .com