Christianity Powerfully Contends with Mormonism

Apologia Utah

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Gospel Trek? I'm just out here talking about God. What's your faith background?

00:08

How you doing? Can you give me the track? Ah, that's fair. Yeah, that was part of my faith background at one point as well.

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What brought you to Utah? Have you been around, maybe you grew up here your whole life or... This is actually my second day here.

00:20

Okay, going to BYU then? I'm imagining. Where are you from originally? California. California. Okay. Church is a little bit different over there than here.

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Let's face facts. I grew up in the Idaho -Utah thing for like 33 years.

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Had two state callings when I actually left and everything else. But having experienced like church outside of the bubble, so to speak, it is a lot different.

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So, what's kind of your thoughts coming into this one and like seeing the differences?

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When you say they're different, what do you mean, I guess? Well, I've only had two days here. Well, fair, but...

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But I know that there are a few differences just culturally. Okay. But that's culture. But the doctrine and practice are different.

01:09

Recently, I just got off my mission about a month ago. Fair. Where'd you go? I served in two places because of COVID.

01:14

I served in the Texas -Dallas -West mission. Okay. You know the country Cape Verde? Yeah. Yeah, I served in Cape Verde.

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Okay. What language do they speak there? In Cape Verde? Yeah. So, the official language is

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Portuguese. Okay. But they don't speak Portuguese there. They speak Creole. That is hilarious.

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So, they don't actually speak the language that they actually say they speak. It's because that's like the educated language that they learn in school.

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But not all of them go to school because it's a third world country. Poor country. Exactly. Okay. So, what would you say, what's the predominant like religion in that country?

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Cape Verde? Yeah. Catholic. Okay. So, you're used to probably meeting up with Catholics, hearing their version of the gospel and going that.

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Have you ever really met with a Protestant and gone through like differences and things? Yeah. So, like I said,

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I was in Texas. Oh, yeah. Bible Belt. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Okay. I grew to love the Bible.

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Okay. So, my question with that because as you can see.

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So, my objective standard would only be the Bible and the Bible alone. If it doesn't say it in the Bible, I can't convict anybody to the truth that is outside of that.

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And the cool thing is it's a piece of scripture that actually attests itself. And what

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I mean by that. So, the Book of Mormon actually says you should say a prayer and see if this is true. Right? Same thing in the Quran. Same thing in the

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Gita. Right? The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says this is the God breathed word. Like it never says pray about this and find if it's true.

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It just goes. It's true. Now, that's quite the statement to make. So, when you have things that are in contradiction, because there is, such as the

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King Follett discourse where you have Joseph Smith saying that I will show you that God wasn't always

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God for all eternity. I will pull back the veil and show you how you can become a God one day. And you have Isaiah 4310 that says where God says before me there was no

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God formed. Neither shall there be after me. In 448 he says I know no other gods around me.

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Which, due to the other theology, that is a direct contradiction. Because they would say, yet there was other gods that we can become gods.

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That's a direct thing. Right? So, you have two contradicting truths.

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How do you handle those contradictions? So, this is actually something that I was approached about in Texas. Okay. Fair. So, I looked into the

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King Follett discourse. One of the things that I found was very interesting. It's very literal.

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What he says is over the book that he goes through. And one of the things that I also love is, and so what

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I'm saying in that is that the King Follett discourses, there was some man made a heirs in heaven.

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And there was no disputation about that. Another thing that I love is, not

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Joseph Smith, but Brother Brigham, he said a lot of weird things, let's be honest. But a lot of the times he said, sorry,

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I was Brother Brigham talking. Last time I forgot to talk. Because the prophet is just a man. A man called of God who receives revelation.

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And this is true throughout the Bible too. We see through the Bible that there are mistakes made by those prophets. And so what

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I'm saying... What would you, no, like, so what would you say the test of the prophets in Deuteronomy?

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That actually contradicts everything you just said. It actually says that if one, if you were to testify of something and it doesn't come true, that you're not a prophet.

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And so, then I would just like to look at, sorry, Joel. There's a book of Joel, right?

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Sorry, I'm stuck in Portuguese still. Yeah, you're good. I got it. So the book of Joel, he testified that the city would be destroyed.

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And I was, he didn't put an if statement. He said...

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Oh, you mean Jonah. That's Jonah. Thank you. Yeah, it's not Joel. I'm so sorry. That's okay.

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Portuguese has messed up my mind, guys. You're good. You're thinking in two different languages right now. I get it. So Jonah, he testified that.

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He didn't put an if statement in his confession. At times, people repent. Things change.

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But why did God send Jonah is the question. To teach them to repent. And he went out, to the bitter heart, but he went out to do it.

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And he preached and he went. And he really did not want them to repent. The whole last chapter of Jonah is about him being

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PO'd that God didn't kill him. And so, that's one thing that I love, that God, he gives second chances, but he works for imperfect people.

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But did he speak as himself for that point? Or was God fully ready to destroy those people?

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Who is the he? Jonah. Did he speak as Jonah when he said the city would be destroyed?

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Or was God fully prepared to destroy them? And that's the question. So, he was fully prepared, or else he wouldn't have had to turn away.

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So at that time, he was still God's mouthpiece because he said this is going to happen. Now, statements that were made by Joseph Smith are things like,

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Jesus will return in my generation. That didn't happen. And there was an if statement. That's in Doctrine and Covenants, I know.

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And there was an if statement that came along with that. Offhand, I don't know what that was, but he did say that there was a condition that needed to be met in order for that to be fulfilled.

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I think it was that Joseph Smith needed to live until he was 80 years old. That didn't happen. He was martyred.

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So that if statement could not be fulfilled anymore. So therefore, the condition could not be met for that to come back.

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He said in his generation. He didn't say in his life. So what he said was... Are we talking about the second coming of Christ?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even 56 years should wrap up the scene is the verbatim quote. I would love to see that.

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We are talking about the second coming one, right? Yes. Yes. Yes, we are. No, because this is what

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I'm saying. To be fair. This is where I'm coming from. Because I hear this all the time when

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I'm in conversations. 33 years in, two stakeholdings and I resigned. Not only that, I had Uchtdorf actually sitting in one of my

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Mormon doctrine classes and being like, dude, you know your stuff. And it's really funny because I come out here and I talk with LDS people.

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And I find that kind of funny anyway because in the 80s and 90s, like meet the Mormons and all that stuff.

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And now people are like, no, I'm from the church. I'm like, calm down. Yeah, like calm down. I just love doing that because it makes people so mad.

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Seriously, calm down. I'm like, you're a Mormon. Get over it. Like Hinckley said, Mormon means more good. And what's really funny actually, if you look at that whole situation.

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The situation of the Mormon? The name. So Nelson, under Hinckley, tried to do the same thing.

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And he's like, we should no longer use this. And Hinckley shot him down. Hinckley's like, no, no, no. Mormon's fine. And then second

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Nelson got in power, I doubt that was a prophet thing. I think he was just like, I'm finally getting rid of it. And I'm like, dude, you've had that pet peeve for a long time.

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You need to calm down. I have no prophet -like morals with the nickname Mormon. In high school,

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I was known as the Mormon. In my high school, I was one of five kids that Nelson had. Right. But one thing

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I do love is that in Doctrine and Covenants, Jesus Christ did say, my church will be known as the church of Jesus Christ.

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So that's why I like Right. But even if you go into the history of the name, it wasn't always the church of Jesus Christ.

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It was the church. And so Jesus Christ wasn't always in there. So it really turns down to a personal thing.

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Right. And Christian is a thing. So... Right.

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And so... Yeah. I'm trying to find the source.

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No, that's fair. I want you to want context. That's good. But what I'm saying about my background, so to be fair, like I'll say something to the effect of,

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I'm like, you need words to be saved. And they're like, no, we don't. And I'm like, cool, so I can get to the level of celestial kingdom just by believing in Jesus?

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And they're like, well, no. I'm like, then shh.

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I'm like, don't lie to me. Like, that is a blatant lie. Because you need baptism.

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You need an endowment. You need to be married in the temple in order to meet for the everlasting covenant, which is a third level.

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Right. But no, when the Bible is talking about that, it's all the same.

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So that's a language difference. So when we're saying saved, when a biblical

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Christian is saying we are saved only by the blood of Jesus, the heaven that we would be referring to in LDS theology is the third level.

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Like, it's complete and utter salvation. Now, is there going to be work done in that person even though they're saved to bring them more in line?

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Yes. But are those, is those works that have been done anything to save that person? No. But, but, there has to be signs and tokens and things that are done to make it to that third level.

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That is, third. That, no, the first level is the cat, the first level.

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No, I'm talking about the three levels in the celestial. No, I'm not talking about the celestial.

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No, I'm talking about the third level because in the celestial kingdom there's also three levels. To get to the third level of the celestial kingdom, you have to have signs and tokens and other things that get you there.

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Okay. But the question is why? So there's a few things. Hebrews 1, you're right, there used to be prophets.

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Hebrews 1 says, in the past there was prophets. Now I speak through the Son. Yeah, but I'm also, it also depends on your view of, if you view, how you view

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Daniel 9 and actually how you view Matthew 24. It's in the history of the church and there's no way I can go through that on my phone.

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It's hard enough to go through it on a computer, much less this thing. This is fair Mormon. I think it's a,

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I think it's a legitimate. Yeah, fair Mormon is. Yeah, that's the source of the screenshot. Yeah, it's fair Mormon, but.

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Bart, I guess it's fair Latter -day Saint now. Is it okay if I click that link right there? Volume 2 link? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't care.

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I missed that. Hold on. Let me make sure that was the right one. Oh. Is it bleeding in through?

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Oh, that's a lot more than I thought it was. Anyway. So. Hold on. Sorry, I just got lost now.

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No, see, yeah, I know. No, the fair LDS site, it's really, it's not well done, but.

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I haven't gone through the fair LDS site. It is the apologetics arm. No, I'm lost. And it's.

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Yeah, I accidentally clicked something and it went somewhere. Okay. Let's just go with whatever. But it's the apologetics, it's the apologetics arm of the church that do that.

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Oh. Is it well organized? No, it's not well organized. Thank you. Yeah. But, but it's their words.

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It's off their thing. So this is what, this is what we're saying. This is, why things are important. So we can argue semantics all day long.

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Yeah. But the truth of the matter is there is works that need to be done. Now, your problem with that, so not only do you have the

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Hebrews thing, but what happened. Sorry, what is the Hebrews thing? You just threw out the Hebrews thing just saying. Right. So the Hebrew, well, the Hebrews thing says that in the past there was prophets.

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Can I pull up the screen? And now he speaks through the son. Hebrews 1, 1 and 2. Sorry, I.

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No, you're fine. I'm not used to reading scriptures. No, you're fine. And it's Hebrews 1, 1 and 2. Before God has spoken to us through his prophets, but now he's spoken.

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You know. Because what was, what was the prophets doing in the

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Old Testament? But, but what was, what was their point though? What was their purpose?

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So it's not just being the mouthpiece. What was, what was, why were there prophets at that point? No, no,

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I'm asking you what the significance of those prophets were. It wasn't just to be mouthpiece during that time.

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But there was things that they've done throughout each one. Like you had the Passover, right? What was the Passover pointing to?

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Right. So everything that they did was telling you who the Messiah was supposed to be.

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So they're like, the Messiah's going to come from this house. The Messiah's going to be doing this. The Messiah's going to be doing this. The Messiah's going to do this.

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But most of them did. Most of them are like, he's going to be coming from the house of David. He's going to, like, they gave specifics because what, there had to be a time.

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Well, let's, we don't have to, we don't have to play whether or not, I'm not saying you're playing. It's just the word I chose.

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We don't have to go down the road of they did this specific thing in every single prophecy that they spoke.

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I think the point of the matter that he's getting to is, in Hebrews 1, 1 and 2, it says in the past,

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God spoke through the prophets. Those prophets, like you were both saying, played a role, right? They each played both a role in that time and they played a role in providing prophecies about the future

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Messiah. And then, after that, now, he has spoken to us through his son,

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Jesus Christ. But, hold on, real quick, sorry. What comes after that in Hebrews?

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Does it say he's going to continue speaking to us? Is this what you're getting at? The closing of the canon? It doesn't say he's going to continue to speak to us through prophets again, after what the prophets in the past said has already been fulfilled.

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It doesn't say that at all. So, I hate to pull this card, but it's a card that was pulled out on me a lot in the mission.

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Where does it say that he wouldn't? Huh? Where does it say that he would not? That's an argument from silence. That's completely illogical.

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That's an illogical argument. It's an argument from silence. God's word is...

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It's literally... It's literally a logical fallacy, so you can't say... You can't...

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Let's say... Oh, just let me pull an example. Right? Oh, I can't think.

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I've always got analogies. So, just because something doesn't say something doesn't...

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It doesn't mean it's condoning that thing. Right? So... Oh, I got an analogy.

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So, let's say... I'm going to go ahead and assume you're against pedophilia.

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I would hope so. The Bible says nothing about it. Is it still wrong? Yes. On what standard?

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Would that not fall under the adultery category? Well, what if he married the small child? Well, that's against...

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Well, that's against the law, right? Whose law? The law of man. And one of the commandments

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God has given us, at least in the paper Jesus Christ, is to keep the law of man. But my point is it doesn't specifically...

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The Bible doesn't specifically say that. So, you can go make the argument from the Bible, based on what you just said, that pedophilia is somehow morally wrong in an absolute sense.

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You couldn't make that argument. You'd be right in saying it, but you couldn't make that argument. We agree.

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But you can't make that argument. Because it would be... Somebody could say from silence, so the

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Bible doesn't say anything about that. The problem that I'm having with this here is that nowhere here is that... It is saying in the past tense that he did speak with the prophets and had some

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But it didn't say that he stopped speaking. Jude 3 does. Jude 3? Yeah.

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Can I pull that up? Absolutely. Oh, yeah.

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I'm so grateful. Do you have mosquitoes in your town? Yes. Yes. Very much so. Mostly mayflies, but...

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Did you say Jude 3? Jude 3, yeah. There's only one chapter of Jude, so it's verse 3.

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That was my question and then I was Jude has one chapter. So, when we say Jude 3, that is

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Jude verse 3. Okay, sorry. You're fine. And so, beloved, when I gave all diligence...

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Yeah. Keep going. ...to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

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Once delivered? Once delivered, yes. What translation are you reading? KJV. Oh, jeez. It's once for all.

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In the Greek, it's once for all. The original language. And so that would have to be something that I'd like to see again.

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That's fair. I feel... No, you're just fine. I want you to want context and, okay, instead of just sloughing it off.

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You're actually just fine because, like, I actually have my Master's in Divinity and read the Greek and the

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Hebrew. Master's in what? Divinity. This is my first year in college. I don't even know what any of this is.

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So, it's a seminary degree. It's a seminary degree. That, well, you guys have a different meaning for seminary.

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Yeah, we're talking like going to college, learning, like, deep, like, hermeneutics and everything else.

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Coming out, salvation in the... Also, is this guy with the camera with you guys? Yes. Okay. Was once for all.

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Hop hocks. I'm sorry. This is way out of context for me still. So, explain to me what this sign is.

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So, the word that they translated was once in Greek, and if you look at it throughout the

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Scripture as well, is translated as was once for all. All right, let me go...

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earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. I still feel like that's still talking about the saints, not like the general to put to the...

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No, the grammar, if you read it again, the grammar clearly points the once... which was once for all delivered to the saints.

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What is the which pointing at? It's pointing at the gospel, which was once for all.

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It's pointing at the faith, not the gospel. It's pointing at the faith, not the gospel. Let me see. Unless it's rendered as gospel.

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So, the... No, no, no. To contend earnestly for the faith, which was once delivered to the faith, you could...

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you could broaden that and say that... that's our faith. That is the totality of our faith.

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The totality of our faith has the basis of the gospel. It's Jesus. And so all... all of what is necessary for the faith has already been delivered in the time of the apostles and spoken and written for.

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And then we... and unlike what it says in the Book of Mormon, which I know it says the contention is of the devil, it says you must earnestly contend for that.

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And if you... Contend for what? The faith. Once and for all delivered to the saints. So when you must earnestly contend, the

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Greek there is actually agonizomai. It is only used in that verse. It's not used in any other

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Bible verse. This verse right here? Yes. Agonizomai is the Greek for earnestly contend.

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It's where we get agonized. It's where we... It literally translates to fight hard. So, this isn't something that we take lightly.

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This isn't something that we say, oh well, the law is fair, your truth is my truth and my truth is my truth, as the current post -modern world would say.

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We say that there is one truth, that he is the way, the truth, the life. There's no other. And if you don't know him, right?

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Him being Jesus, right? Huh? Him being Jesus, right? What do you mean? Yes. He was trying to figure out what you meant by him.

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Yes, Jesus. And if you don't know who Jesus was, because he actually said in John, if you do not know that I am, is what he said to the

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Pharisees, then you will die in your sins. When he said that, that's what caused him to get killed. Because he literally said, I am God. He said,

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I am. That's the same as the burning bush. He's like, unless you believe I am. So, here's the problem we run into,

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OK? And it comes down to definitions and it does come down to some things. When we say our objective standards of the Bible and what it teaches us.

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Let's take this pole as an example, OK? Can I worship the pole? Free country, right?

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Like in general or just, yeah, you can worship the pole. Freedom of religion. OK. If I were to then turn around and tell you that this pole is

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Jesus Christ and that makes me a Christian, does that make me a Christian at that point? This is just semantics.

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It's not semantics. By definition, am I a Christian if I tell you that this pole is

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Jesus Christ and I'm worshipping it? I would say no. OK. Why? Why would you say no?

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Because. That's fair. But why would you say no? Maybe Jesus Christ is not Pope Jesus Christ. He's the son of God.

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A weird society where definitions are changing.

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That's fair. But what I'm saying with that. The point is. Go ahead. No, but what I'm saying is you have a church who claims that.

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Like we're worshipping Christ, right? The Christ of the Bible, though, is not the brother of Lucifer. He created everything, invisible and visible.

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He was only. He was with God from the beginning and has always been God. OK? He wasn't created.

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There wasn't a brother. This is all Scripture. This is all Bible. So with that in mind. It's a definition.

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And now there's another definition that is given. So we have to say which definition is right. And the problem with that and when we get to that realm is what does it say in Matthew?

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With the people who come to him. Because. Let's both be and you be honest about the current generation and what we're seeing.

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Generation in total or just like in a specific? Right now. OK. There is going to be plenty of people who willingly go to hell.

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They'll be like, oh, that's who God is? I'm cool, dude. Like, it's like it's torment. And I didn't like you anyway.

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OK? But there's going to be a group of people who are going to approach him and say, Lord, Lord. Didn't I do? Didn't I cast out demons in your name?

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Didn't I do great work in your name? Didn't I do everything? And what does he tell them? Depart from me,

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I never knew. And so our message to the Latter Day Saints is you are worshipping by definition a false

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Jesus who cannot save you. And in that realm if you keep going down that path even though you feel like, feel.

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It's Jeremiah 16. Jeremiah says that your heart is the secret above all things we shall know it. So feelings don't matter.

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If you look at the definition of God's word and say, if you let him tell you who he is, if you keep worshipping a false that can't save you, in that moment you'll be like,

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I'm good. And you're going to walk up and he's going to go fling a gnashing of teeth away from him and be like, but I did it though.

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Because, think about it this way. The Old Testament temple, when he died on the cross, what happened?

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What was written to him? OK. What was the significance of that? What was the significance of that?

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What would you say? OK. Fair. OK. It also separated the, it also got rid of the separation between man and God.

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Right? Because the Holy of Holies was a place that only one guy could go to sprinkle the blood and he had to do it just right, had a rope on him because if he did it wrong, he'd die and they had to pull him out.

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Old Testament's brutal. Yeah. But it's still the same God. We still have the same

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God. The same God that we worship today is the same God who killed man, woman, child, puppies and everything in the world.

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Same God. There's some people who are like, that's not my God. I'm like, then you don't know God. Same guy.

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During my mission, sorry, during my mission I had the opportunity to read the Old Testament. I loved every moment of it. So, with that in mind, though, the real thing was it separated, it got rid of that separation.

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It said, man can go directly to the throne and it ended that separation. You have a church that literally has put back up the veil.

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Even though it was rent in two. In the New Testament it says that that veil was torn as Jesus breathed his last.

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And so that's pretty shocking. So the separation is now returned. And you literally have a faith that is built on something.

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What were the first two lies the serpent told Eve? He knows she'll become like God.

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You'll become like God. And, did God really say that? That's what he said.

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They're like, well God said not to eat the fruit. He's like, did God really say that? But did he?

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Did he actually say that? Satan actually didn't say that. What he said was, he said that. He said that God said that you, you surely will not die when you eat it.

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Those were just the two lies he said. No, in Genesis he said, did God say that? I'm pretty sure you're right.

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Yeah. He said, did God say that? Please pull that out. Yeah, I will. Absolutely. So the point of the matter is you have two, and I'm pretty sure that verse is like, right now, an emotional high.

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Because we're not we're not playing like, nice game of engagement. Magicians.

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Yes. So, hands are left. There you go. It's the second paragraph. Sorry? Yeah, it's fine.

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You're fine. Here. What verse? Here. Just so he can pull it. It's 3 -1. 3 -1. There you go. Oh, there you go. There's KJV. I'll just pull it where you're probably pulling it from.

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Yeah, there you go. He actually just pulled up Mormon, the Mormon tools. So there you go. He can look it up.

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Second try? Three, there you go. 3 -1? Yeah.

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Yea, hath God said. Oh, there you go. Yea, hath God said ye shall not eat of every tree in the garden.

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Yeah. Did God say that? In modern English, did God really say? what the serpent is saying is

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Did God not say to not eat of every tree in the garden? Yeah. Did he not say it? Oh, he said three lines.

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Did he say that? But that's what I'm saying. Is he saying that? Yeah, seriously.

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Dude, shut up. I'm going to sit with my family and enjoy this, right?

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But we're commanded to go out. So, my call to you is this. Is, right now, you are following a false

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Christ and a false gospel that cannot save you. Okay? And the way, the only way to go around that is to forget all of the extra to believe in Christ alone.

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And through the Bible alone. And through faith alone. Only to the glory of God alone. Not to any of your glory as of this life.

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But only to the glory of God. And that is what only Christ can save. Without that, you're going to fall in sin.

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And it's, and it won't, it won't be because you're ignorant of it. But it will be because that's what happens.

30:12

And I know it's not something, and you'll stand there and be like, yeah, whatever. But, it's what the truth is based on the

30:19

Bible and what it says. Yeah, and I respect the government.

30:24

This is a hard position to take. But, this is a town that is predominantly of the LPSA. To stand here, it's a very poor thing to do.

30:31

Especially in front of a temple. Well, Paul spoke right. We get that all the time.

30:37

I'm like, yeah, Paul didn't speak out of synagogues at all. I'm like, yeah, let's face facts with that one.

30:42

I asked my mission president if I could go inside of other chapels and stuff. He said, let's not stir the pot while it's

30:48

COVID. You wouldn't be able to understand you anyway.

30:54

You'd have a mask on. And I really do respect that that you guys are doing this.

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But, I will say that for me, I have tried that. What the gospel of Jesus Christ says is that any

31:14

Christian should say is a thing too. However, during that time I learned from this.

31:23

And for me, I did find... Can I put something?

31:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead, go ahead. By all means. It's his testimony. It's how he's going to try to end everything. No, no, no.

31:37

But it's such a Trump card. Like, honestly, if we're being real, like, past member, to member, you're going to say that as a way of ending the conversation.

31:46

But it also means that what he was probably about to say is by what standard? Because there still has to be a standard that's met.

31:53

And by that standard, I'm going to say Galatians 5, 22. The one that says the fruit of the spirit, peace, love, patience, joy, kindness, all that stuff.

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Can I ask you something about that? I'm not there. Go ahead. Do you know any, have you ever seen an atheist that displays peace, love, joy, patience, and kindness?

32:13

So that can't be the only thing. We can't just pick and choose out of the Bible, right? That is true.

32:18

I'm not going to pick and choose out of the Bible. You guys, should we change your opinion about this?

32:56

I'll think about this. This is the eternal salvation of a soul. Because think about, think about it this way.

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Because if we're looking at it in two different lights, okay? Let's, for example, say you're right and I'm wrong. Okay?

33:08

Let's take that as a thing. So your testimony's right, whatever, and you're right and I'm wrong.

33:14

Okay, when I die, that means I will go to spirit prison. When that, when that occurs, no, it's, that's theology.

33:22

No, that's theology. When I die, I would go to spirit prison. In your theology. So if I go to spirit prison, I guarantee the family that is currently disowning me and everything else will definitely do my work for me.

33:32

Okay? At that moment, if I'm staring at it in the face, that that's all real, it's not like I'm going to say no.

33:38

Of course I'm going to say yes, but when I do say yes, what's going to happen according to your theology, according to doctrine and covenants, is in that light, because I worship

33:49

Christ in this life, I will go to this restful peak. But there's two things I've already said. Hold on a second, let me finish before you complete this.

33:58

Okay? There is another end to this. So, I will go to the restful kingdom, where that is where Jesus falls, and it is explained that that is, you'll be like angels worshiping

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Jesus for eternity. That is actually a pretty good definition of evangelical heaven at that point.

34:14

Or, now let's flip that same script. Let's say you're wrong in our life.

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In that life, we would believe that you only have this life and that alone, and then you are judged.

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You do not have a second chance. You do not have these things. So, it's eternal torment after this life if you're wrong.

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There is no... And so, in that life, either way, in this conversation,

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I would have it okay. You would not. However, you wouldn't. Because, ultimately, everything comes down to the scary day of judgment.

34:50

God is not just... It's not scary when you understand... I know. I was just being too bad. But the thing with judgment day is that God isn't just going to judge us for only the things that we did right in life.

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He's going to judge us based on a whole bunch of different kinds of variables that we don't even understand. It comes from the very brain chemistry of what our natural being is.

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The only people... Sorry, I have to... You're in error. Respectfully.

35:17

The only people that are going to be judged in that sense is according to their works are the people who do not believe.

35:23

The people... Everyone else is going to be... The only standard by which we're judged as believers is if we truly believed or not.

35:31

If we were truly born again, like Jesus says in John 3 to Nicodemus, you must be born again by water and by spirit.

35:39

Water in that light means people come out of water. Yeah. And so... We're Baptists.

35:51

Oh, you're Ba... Oh, sorry. That context was not good. No, no, that's fine. I just... I figured that would clear it right up.

35:56

Yeah, yeah. So, you must be born again. There's a changing of the heart. So in Ezekiel 36, 26 through 27,

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God tells... Speaks to Ezekiel in a dream about the valley of dry bones and all the death of Israel, right?

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He says, I will... Ezekiel says, can you make this... Can you make these bones live?

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And God says, I will take out the heart of stone and I will put it in the heart of flesh and I will give new life.

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And that's... That's pointing toward Christ and what He did on the cross. And so when the

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Spirit indwells us, there's a changing of the heart from stone to flesh figuratively, obviously.

36:34

But it's not... It's not that we're going to be judged on our works. That's a very, very

36:40

Catholic belief. That's where purgatory comes from. You know what I... And it's also an

36:45

LDS belief. I'd like to also... How about Revelation 20, 12? Because it says that the book of the dead will be opened in that...

36:52

Oh, right. The book of dead. In the context... The book of life. But the book of life, meaning...

36:58

So that's the difference when we believe in an imputed righteousness which is what it talks about in the Bible. So God indwells you.

37:07

So when God is judging you, all He sees is the righteousness of Christ on you because His blood covers you.

37:13

So it has nothing to do with right or wrong or anything else you've done. It's a gift of grace because the Bible actually only says the only thing you work for which is wages.

37:21

Right? The wages of sin is death. But grace is a gift. You never work for a gift.

37:27

You never do or else it ceases to be a gift. And speaking of... that you're given by a boss isn't a gift.

37:35

You put in work. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of wages, as Jesus breathes His last on the cross,

37:41

He says, It is finished, totelosai. In Greek, it carries a lot more than what our English translation really gives to it.

37:49

Totelosai has a legal ramification to the word meaning that someone is justified in front of a judge.

37:57

So in other words, if I stand condemned before an earthly judge then someone else has taken my punishment for me.

38:06

Also, it has a... if you want to say an accounting or tax accounting context to it to where it also means that something is paid in full.

38:18

And so that the wages of sin is death. Our wages are... what we've earned through our sin has been paid in full by Christ.

38:29

And Isaiah. And so... and so... one of the biggest differences between LDS doctrine and Protestant Christianity is that you guys believe you have to work to some extent.

38:43

Not everybody agrees on how much or how little but to some extent we're saved by God's grace after all we can do 2

38:50

Nephi 25 -23, right? And so there's some of your work involved in your justification.

38:57

But Jesus says no. I justified you on the cross with my work.

39:04

So I have a question. Sure. How is it someone can gain that salvation of that justification of Jesus Christ? By belief.

39:10

Is that not an action? Is that not a work? He sounds like Leighton Flowers. He does sound like That's an inside joke.

39:17

Don't worry about it. Anyway. He's a Protestant Christian. It's not an action.

39:24

I see this a little bitter. It's not a work for the very same reason that are based on what

39:30

I just quoted you from Ezekiel 36. It's God. It's God that gives you that heart.

39:38

The only reason we can believe is because He's changed that way. So when God gives us the heart what if we just go back?

39:45

You can't. You can't. So the moment you get given that heart you can go rape, murder, and kill each other? No, absolutely not.

39:51

You wouldn't do that with us. But see though we do works, right? We're out here doing them right now. Matthew 28, 18 through 20 of the

39:58

Great Commission we're out here doing it right now because they're commanded to. Can I say how my teenager would say it?

40:05

Just like five words. But it's not these works that save us. No, not at all. Or progress us to any other level of heaven.

40:14

Well you that's what the church teaches. The fourth article of faith certainly does.

40:21

The fourth article of faith says that right?

40:32

Those are all gifts. You receive baptism as a gift?

40:40

It is a gift that we receive. We work for it. Well you have to voluntarily go and get it.

40:48

You have to be worthy. Well that's exactly You have to give 10%. Again this it's all works.

41:03

So you just said it's true. No, no, no. I'm saying this is OK. But to some extent works are necessary.

41:10

In the in all of this doctrine works are necessary for justification. Justification as in salvation?

41:17

We have different definitions of salvation. But the if you if you want to reach the highest level you got to do

41:26

X amount of works. There's not a number on it but you got to do everything you can in your power to reach that level.

41:32

In the most basic sense. Right? OK. There's none of that in the

41:38

Bible. None. There's nothing. It says you're saved by faith. By grace through faith.

41:44

Not by works lest any man should boast. Faith but then we get to I'm sure you guys James 1 is the proof text that you're going to pull.

41:50

No, James 2 actually. James 2, 17. What? Sorry. But James 2 is always the proof text that gets pulled out in that situation.

41:57

There's a difference between the internal change and the external test of if they've changed.

42:03

So the difference being is the internal change the thing that actually justifies an individual is done by God. Like what?

42:14

They can be sly and they can be like dude, dude, yeah dude

42:22

I totally believe, man. Like, I'm totally with these guys and then he goes and does stupid stuff. We can honestly say that his heart's not changed.

42:28

Like, well obviously your heart's not changed. Right? Because if your heart was changed you wouldn't do that.

42:34

So that's an external evidence for your internal condition. James says to show me your faith by your works.

42:42

Not to save you. Just like you said you cited evidence of your salvation by the fruit of the Spirit. He says show me your faith by your works.

42:48

I didn't cite evidence of the salvation of my soul. Because for me, I... Persevere?

43:00

Persevere? Yeah. Those who persevere to the end. Yeah, that. Well, yeah, but...

43:06

Because if we don't... In Ezekiel it says that a man that is righteous can live his entire life but at the end if he turns the path it valleys him down.

43:17

Yeah, we believe that too. We believe that but we also believe that he was never in the faith though.

43:23

Because it says in the Gospels it says when I... whoever the Father brings to me I will not lose.

43:30

So they were never brought. It's another distinction that he's making. Basically, you're saying that if someone doesn't persevere to the end then that means they had

43:39

Christ and they gave up on Him essentially. Right? But 1 John 2 .19 says that they went out from us because they were never of us.

43:47

So let's look at King David first. Okay. King David. Yeah.

43:55

And at that point he turned away and God said in that point

44:00

God said to him that essentially he has lost his salvation. Right? I don't know about that but you'd have to give me you'd have to give me a text.

44:09

I'd have to look at it. No worries. But it's kind of getting late. Which of you guys is

44:16

Nick? I'm Nick. Jared? Nicholas. Daniel. Daniel? It's nice to meet you guys. If you guys are out here

44:22

I'm probably going to be here a lot. I don't know. I'm probably going to go to a temple. I like it. But I do respect what you guys are doing.

44:30

You guys are doing it for a thing that you need things to think about.

44:37

Okay. That's what we're saying is think about it. Can I give you do you have any of these? Can I give you some stuff to read over?

44:44

Which one do we give you? We have so many different ones. Like literally we have like I use this one.

44:50

I'm just saying like because I'm a biblical scholar. Okay. Well then I just want to point out one thing

44:55

I'll let you go but it'll be very quick. One thing you said is earlier I never got to get to it really is that I found

45:02

Jesus and essentially I'm fine with the Jesus I have for me.

45:08

Something along those lines. Or I've anyway you based your claim and then you said for me.

45:15

Right? But that makes you a standard or an authority on whether or not the

45:21

Jesus you profess is true or not. And that's not the standard you want to go to. You want to go by. That's all I'm saying.

45:27

You want to go by Scripture. And since in the time

45:32

I know I know the Book of Mormon supposedly happened 600 years before Christ or however that works out but it wasn't revealed to anyone until 1830 or whatever it was.

45:44

Since the Old and New Testament come first in the revelation that was given to everyone.

45:51

You must test the other three to see if Doctrine and Covenants you must test those three by the

45:59

Old and New Testament. And if you truly do that and you don't do it through a specifically LDS lens and you let the text in the

46:07

Old and New Testament speak for itself you will find yourself no longer agreeing with the other three.

46:14

And that's all I want to give you. Jesus is real. We both agree with that. You just have to figure out who Jesus is.

46:20

I can't call him Jesus worship him and say I'm a Christian. Or the Pole. Well he...

46:27

The Pole thing is his thing so I said him. Anyway. I know how the sticks go.

46:35

There's only one Christ. For a lot of people around this area for them to even grasp the concept because they're like no it's the same

46:46

Jesus no it's the same Jesus no it's the same Jesus and they keep saying it over and over and over again like a broken record and I'm like fine. I would say it's the same

46:53

Jesus. Now what? It's like well it's not. Okay. Why not?

47:00

Well definition. Okay so definitions matter. Alright. So. Now we gotta talk about definitions.

47:06

We're telling you about an eternally existent being not that all of us eternally existed but the only eternally existent being which is

47:13

God Father, Son, and Spirit in a triune nature. Right? Creator of all things visible and invisible in Colossians 1 .16

47:21

not the spirit brother of Lucifer not someone who is making you work so that you can exalt yourself to Godhood Not testing you.

47:30

And just to throw it out there the parable of Lazarus and the rich man completely destroys any idea of spirit prison.

47:39

Do you know that parable? I do but there's I know there's not time. There's not time. Think about it.

47:44

I have thought about that one. Another baptism. Think about it more. If I can get asked to pray the prayer a hundred times you can think about that more.

47:55

But anyway, just look. We have two different definitions of Jesus. Sorry, what did you just say? Sorry.

48:01

Is this happening? No, I completely understand. Well, you didn't pray about hard times. You understand that it's a circular argument, right?

48:08

I have had one couple tell me to just watch The Chosen. That was different. Anyway. I love

48:15

The Chosen but they take too much artistic license. The prayer. The prayer that is in Moroni literally says that if you ask with a pure heart, with having a contact spirit and being full of faith you'll be given the truth.

48:28

What that it's a circular argument. Because if you didn't do it If we say no, they're like well, you didn't have enough faith.

48:33

It's like you realize that's a logical fallacy. That is a circular like that is just wrong.

48:40

Seriously. The ways that people explain that scripture for me, I'm going there's a lot that goes on.

48:47

You've been very reasonable. I just I'd like you to think about that. Read Isaiah 43 -46.

48:54

Read John 1 -18. Read those things. And then see if you come away again, try to let the text speak for itself and itself only.

49:06

And try to try to avoid just the LDS lens. And I'm not saying you're the only one guilty of it.

49:11

I've done it too. You just have to try your best to be consistent. Sorry. Go ahead.

49:17

Were you also a member of the church? No, I'm from Texas. Oh. So. From Texas. But it's no,

49:25

I was never this handom purely happened purely by God's providence. I was in Alaska studying for months to talk to the

49:33

Jehovah's Witnesses. And then God put you know, more missionaries than Jehovah's Witnesses that knock on your door dress very similarly.

49:41

I thought I saw they're shrinking a lot. That's probably why, yeah.

49:47

Yeah, they're shrinking. But I thought I saw a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses. I thought I saw a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses in Walmart one morning.

49:54

I was in a hurry. I said, God, put them in my path. You want me to speak to them? I came around the other way and there they were.

50:01

And then I saw the name tags. And it was not Jehovah's Witnesses. So two months of studying down the drain.

50:08

And anyway, that's how that happened. That's why I'm here. But the

50:14

Jesus of the Bible cannot be congruent with the Jesus of LDS doctrine,

50:21

Book of Mormon, any of it. It can't. It can't happen. If you're honest with yourself while reading, it cannot happen.

50:29

And if you just let the text speak, and what I say by that is there's plenty of times where I'll actually read the

50:35

Hebrew and the Greek to the LDS member and they're like, well, that's your interpretation. I'm like, I literally just said what it said.

50:41

And they're like, well, that's your interpretation. I read you the words. You did not like the words. But I did not interpret the words.

50:47

I told you what the words said and you didn't like it. But that doesn't change that that's what the words said.

50:54

So that's what I'm saying is when we believe in sola scriptura, which is the Bible alone, and tota scriptura, which means, no.

51:03

All of the Bible. All of Scripture. All of Scripture. So we don't get to pick and choose. It's going to be like, as Charles Spurgeon said, if you read the

51:10

Bible and you find a verse that you're like, I don't know about, he's like, that's your new friend for a month. Get to reading it and enjoying it because it's still the

51:18

Word. It's still true. You don't like it? Cool. Read it again. Oh, no. Again.

51:24

Because it's still true. You're not. And just to look on the Hebrew point of view, well, it's like, because when

51:39

I met with people in Texas, none of them, all they did was go to church and learn what their pastor taught them in their sermon.

51:50

And so whenever someone, I had to give someone a verse, I had to describe the entire context of the

51:55

Word. That's just something that's not, that's not a definition of a whole.

52:01

What I'm saying about is actually you can look up an interlinear, you can easily download an app that will tell you the

52:07

Greek and Hebrew back end of every verse that you're reading. So you could actually read it in the original language with the actual translation right there and we're not talking about, this is from the original documents like the

52:20

Tanakh and Torah. Here you go. And you don't have to go,

52:25

I wonder if there's a transmission here. No, it's going, here we go. And just, most people don't know about this to be fair, but you can go to several different archive websites as well and what you would see in an interlinear

52:38

Bible where the English is here and the Greek or Hebrew is right below, you can also open, just open another tab and go to these like Dallas Theological Seminary or a couple other places where they have facsimiles of actual

52:51

Greek papyrus transcripts and you can look back and forth and make sure what these people are saying is actually what's on the papyrus from the first second century.

53:02

And we have more, we have more, more transcripts and things.

53:11

In college, you're going to college right now, they will teach you the, we have four copies of that.

53:17

We have no idea if what we're reading now that were spread around, they were never centralized, it was never centralized to change.

53:36

So we can easily go, if a monk was copying and missed like an and, we have three thousand other copies and we're like, there's an and there, okay.

53:47

We know because of this. It's strictly textual criticism of one another. And so, knowing that, we know that the self -attesting nature of the

53:57

Bible is backed up based on the actual original languages. This isn't the telephone game as you've been taught.

54:04

So, the LDS theology has taught that for a long time. The Bible, the reason that you have to watch as long as it's translated correctly is because it's transmission, it was like the telephone game.

54:18

But the telephone game theory is in there. That's nonexistent. We have manuscripts. Let's go.

54:24

If you have, if you have any questions, just, we're out here on Thursday nights. If it's not us individually, it'll be somebody else.

54:30

Jared. Jared. And Daniel. Daniel. Nice to meet you guys. Nice to meet you. Have a good night. Read that stuff. Isaiah 43 through 46.