Christianity Powerfully Contends with Mormonism

Opening Conversation with a Returning Missionary

Awesome trick just out here talking about God. What's your uh, what's your faith background? That's fair, yeah, that was part of my faith background at one point as well. What's what brought you to Utah?

Have you been around maybe grew up here your whole life or? Okay going to be why you then I'm imagining. Okay, where are you from? California, okay church is a little bit different over there then here.

Huh, let's face facts. I Grew up in the Idaho, Utah thing and for like 33 years had two state callings when I actually left and everything else but having experienced like church outside of The bubble so to speak it is a lot different.

So what what's your what's kind of your thoughts coming into this one and like seeing the differences? But when you say they're different, what do you mean? I guess.

I've only had two days here. Well fair, but. But I know that there are a few differences culturally. Okay, that's cool. Recently I just got off my mission. Fair, where'd you go? I served in two places.

Good. I served in the Texas Dallas West. Okay, you know the country Cape Verde. Yeah.

Okay, what what language they speak there? Yeah, so.

The official language is Portuguese, but they don't speak Portuguese there. They speak Creole.

That is hilarious. So they don't actually speak the language that they actually say they speak. Poor country, okay. So what what would you say? What's the predominance like religion in that country? Okay, so you're used to Probably meeting up with Catholics hearing their version of the gospel and going that have you ever really met with a Protestant and gone through like Differences and things.

Oh, yeah Bible Belt. Yeah, there you go. Okay. Okay, so my my question with that because as you can see so my My objective standard would only be the Bible in the Bible alone. If it doesn't say it in the Bible, I can't convict anybody to the truth that is outside of that.

And it and the cool thing is It's a piece of scripture that actually attests itself. Right and what I mean by that. So the Book of Mormon actually says you should say a prayer and see if this is true, right?

Same thing in the Quran same thing in the Gita, right? The Bible doesn't say that the Bible says this is the God breathed word. Like it never says pray about this and find if it's true. It just goes It's true.

That's quite the statement to make right? So when you have things that are that are in contradiction because there is Such as the King Follett discourse where you have Joseph Smith saying that I got I will show you that God wasn't always God for all Eternity I will pull back the veil and you can show you that how you can become a god one day.

And you have Isaiah 43 10 that says where God says before me. There was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me in 44 8. He says I know no other gods around me which Due to the other theology that it's a direct contradiction because they would say Yeah, there was other gods that we can become gods.

But that that's a direct thing, right?

So what would you. What. So you have two contradicting truths? How do you handle those contradictions? Okay.

Which was transcribed. It's very little what he says is over the. So what I'm saying is that the King Follett sir discourses there was some man made a Harrison and there was no Disputation about. I think that I love is not Joseph Smith, but brother Brigham.

He said a lot of good things. Let's be honest, but a lot of the times he said sorry I was brother Brigham talking last time forgot because the Prophet is just a man called of God who receives revels. We see through the Bible that there are mistakes made by those problems.

And so what I'm saying.

What would you know like this? What would you say the test of the prophets in Deuteronomy? That actually contradicts everything you just said. It actually says that if one if you were to pre if you were to testify of something and it doesn't come true.

That you're not a prophet. Yeah, you're good. I got it.

He said the city of Nineveh will be destroyed.

You mean Jonah. Jonah, that's Jonah. Thank you. Yeah, it's not so sorry. That's okay.

Portuguese is messed up my mind guys. You're good. So you're thinking in two different languages right now. I get it.

Yeah, so Jonah he testified that he didn't put an if-statement in his conscience. People repent.

But why did God send Jonah as a question.

Did he but did he speak as himself for that point God or was God fully ready to destroy those people. Jonah, did he. Did he speak as Jonah when he said the city would be destroyed or was God fully prepared to destroy them?

So he was fully prepared or else he wouldn't had to turn away. So at that time he was still God's mouthpiece because he said this is going to happen now statements that were made By Joseph Smith or things like Jesus will return in my generation.

That didn't happen. Yeah. He said in his generation he didn't say in his life.

We talking about the second coming of Christ, yeah, even 56 years should wrap up the scene is the verbatim. Yeah.

Yeah. We are talking about second coming one, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yes we are. No, cuz this is what I'm saying to be fair. This is where I'm coming from just because I hear this all the time and I'm in conversations 33 years in to stake holdings when I resigned not only that I had to do if actually sitting in one of my Mormon doctrine classes and being like dude, you know your stuff and It's really funny because they come out here and I talked with LDS people and I I find that kind of funny anyway because in the 80s and 90s Like meet the Mormons and all that stuff and now people are like, no, I'm from the church.

Like calm down. I'm like seriously calm down. I'm like you're Mormon get over it like Hinckley said Mormon means more good and it was really funny. Actually if you look at that whole situation The name the name so Nelson under Hinckley tried to do the same thing.

He's like we should no longer use this and Hinckley shot him down. Hinckley's like no no, no Mormons fight and then second Nelson got in power. I doubt that was a prophet thing. I think he was just like I'm finally getting rid of it.

I'm like dude. You've had that pet peeve for a long time. You need to calm down.

I. In high school, I was known as the Mormon. In my high school. I was one of five kids, right? Right.

Right, but even in the even if you go the history of the name it wasn't always the Church of Jesus Christ. It was the church and there's like in so Jesus Christ was always in there. It really it really turns down to a personal like Right in Christian is a thing so Right and so yeah.

I'm trying to find. No, that's fair. I want you to want context that's.

Salvation by the Bible Alone and the Self-Attesting Word of God

What I'm saying about my background so to be fair like we'll say something to the effect of I'm like you need words to Be saved in there. No, we don't and I'm like cool so I can get to the third level celestial kingdom just by believing in Jesus and they're like.

Well, no, I'm like then I'm like, don't lie to me like that. That is a blatant lie. Because you need baptism you need an endowment. You need to be married in the temple to in order in order to meet for the everlasting covenant, which is a third level.

Right, but no when the Bible is talking about that. And It's it's all the same. So that's a language difference. So when we're saying saved when I when I when a biblical Christian is saying we are saved only by the blood of Jesus.

The heaven that we would be referring to in LDS theology is the third level. Like it's complete and utter Salvation now, is there going to be work done in that person even though they're saved to bring them more in line.

Yes, but are those is those works that have been done anything to save that person? No. But. But there it has to be signs and tokens and things that are done to make it to that third level that is third.

That no the first level is the cat the first level. No, I'm talking about the three levels in the celestial. No, I'm not talking about the celestial no, I'm talking about the third level because in the celestial kingdom, there's also three levels.

To get to the third level of the celestial kingdom. You have to have signs and tokens and other things that get you there. Okay. But the question is why so there's a few things. Hebrews 1. You're right.

There used to be prophets. Hebrews 1 says in the past there was prophets. Now I speak through the song. So I have a question. Yeah, but I'm also it also depends on your view of. If you view how you view Daniel 9 and actually how you view Matthew 20.

It's in the history of the church and there's no way I can go through that on my phone. It's hard enough to go through it on a computer much less this thing. This is fair Mormon. I think it's a. I think it's.

Yeah, that's the source of the screenshot. Yeah, it's fair Mormon but Part I guess it's fair Latter-day Saint now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't care I.

Missed that. Hold on. Let me make sure that's the right one. Oh.

Is it bleeding in through? Oh, that's a lot more than I thought it was anyway, so.

Sorry, I just got lost. No. No see. Yeah, I know it's the fair LDS site. It's it's really it's not well done, but it is going through the fair. It is the apologetics or I'm lost and it's yeah, I accidentally click something and it went somewhere.

Okay, but it is the gold whatever but it's the apologetic. It's the apologetics arm of the of the church that do that. Oh, is it well organized? No, it's not well organized. Thank you but. It's but it's their words.

It's off their thing. So this is what this is what we're saying. This is why things are important so we can argue semantics all day long. But the truth of matter is there is works that need to be done now your problem with that.

So not only do you have the Hebrews thing, but what happened? Right, so the Hebrew while the Hebrews thing says that in the past there was prophets. And now he speaks through the Sun. Hebrews 1 1 2.

No, you're fine. No, you're fine. It's Hebrews 1 1 2 before God has spoken to us through his prophets, but now he's spoken. Yeah, you know.

I've in these last days spoken unto us.

Because what was what was the prophets doing in the Old Testament. Well, but what was that what was their point though, what was their purpose. So it's not just being the mouthpiece. What was what was why were there prophets at that point?

No, I know. I'm asking you what the significance of those prophets were. It wasn't just to be mouthpiece during that time. And what. But there was things that they've done is throughout each one. Like you had the Passover right.

What was the Passover pointing to. Right, so everything that they did was telling you who the Messiah was supposed to be. So they're like the Messiah is going to come from this house. The Messiah is going to be doing this.

The Messiah is going to be doing this the Messiah is going to be. But most of them did. Most of them are like he's gonna be coming from the house of David. He's going to like they gave they gave specifics because what there had to be a time.

Well, let's you we don't have to we don't have to play whether or not I'm not saying you're playing it's just but the word I chose but We don't have to go down the road of they did this specific thing in every single prophecy that they spoke.

I think the the point of the matter that he's getting to is. In Hebrews 1 1 and 2 it says in the past God spoke through the prophets and those profit those prophets like you're both saying played a role, right?

They each played both a role in that time and they played a role in providing prophecies about the future Messiah right and then. After that now he has spoken to us through his son Jesus Christ. But hold on we're doing real quick.

Sorry. What comes after that in Hebrews. Does it say he's gonna continue speaking does this is what you're getting at the closing of the cannon? It doesn't say he's gonna continue to speak through us through prophets again after what the prophets in the past Said has already been fulfilled.

It doesn't say that at all.

So I hate to pull this card, but it's a part that was pulled out on me at a lot in the mission.

Where does it say that he wouldn't huh? Where does it say that he would not. That's an argument from silence. It's completely illogical. That's an illogical argument. It's an argument from silence. It's God's word.

It's literally it's literally a logical fallacy. So you can't say. You can't let's say. Oh Just let me pull an example, right? I Can't think I've always got analogies. So just because something doesn't say something Doesn't it doesn't mean it's condoning that thing, right?

So, oh, I got an analogy. So let's say I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and assume you're against pedophilia. Bible says nothing about it. Is it still wrong? Yes on what standard?

Well, what if he married the small child. Well, that's against well, that's against the law, right? And I saw the law of man. And one of the commandments God has given us at least in the Jesus Christ I'd like the Saints is to keep.

But my point is it doesn't specific the Bible doesn't specifically say that so you can go make the argument from the Bible. Based on what you just said that pedophilia is somehow morally wrong in an absolute sense.

You couldn't make that argument. You'd be right in saying it.

But you couldn't make that argument. Agree, but I can't make that argument because it would be.

Somebody could say from silence. So the Bible doesn't say anything about.

It is saying in the past is that he did speak with the prophets.

You three does yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. I'm so great. I know it. No, I know.

Yes, yes very much so it's mostly mayflies, but You three. Yeah, there's a there's only one chapter of Jews. It's first three. Jude has one Jude has one chapter. So when we say Jude three, that is Jude first three.

You're fine.

And so beloved when I gave all diligence, yeah. Okay, keep going to write unto you. The common self of the common salvation was meaningful for me to write unto you and exhort. That you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the sons once delivered.

What translation are you? Hey JV? Yeah. Oh, geez. It's once for all.

Well in the Greek, it's once for all the original language.

That's that's fair. I feel no cool. You want that. No, no, you're just fine. Want context and okay.

You were you were actually just fine cuz like I actually have my master's in divinity and read the Greek and the Hebrew divinity.

So it's it's a seminary it's a seminary degree that well you guys have a different meaning for seminary.

Yeah, we're talking like going to college learning like deep like hermeneutics and everything else. Coming out salvation.

See yes. Was once for all. Hop-hocks, I'm sorry, this is way out of context for me still.

So explain to me what the site is. So the the word that they translated was once In Greek and if you look at it throughout the the scripture as well is translated as from once once for all.

Which was once for all I still feel like that's still talking about the Saints not like.

No, the the grammar if you read it again the grammar clearly points the once Which was once for all delivered to the Saints. What is the which pointing at. It's pointing at the gospel, which was once for all.

Ah Unless So that no or to contend earnestly for the faith which was once delivered the faith. You could you could broaden that and say that that's our faith. That is the totality of our faith. The totality of our faith has the basis of the gospel is Jesus and so all all of what is necessary for the faith has already been delivered in the time of the Apostles and.

Spoken and written for and then we and unlike what it says in the in the Book of Mormon Which I know it says the contention is of the devil. It says you must earnestly contend for that and if you. The faith once and for all delivered to the Saints.

So when you must earnestly contend the Greek there is actually agony to my it is only used in that verse. It's not used in any other Bible verse. Yes, agony to my is the Greek for earnestly content. It's where we get agonized.

It's where we it literally translates to fight hard. So this isn't something that we take lightly. This isn't something that we say Oh, well, lousy fair your truth is me or truth in my truth is my truth as the the current postmodern world would say.

We say that there is one truth that he is the way the truth of life. There's no other and if you don't know him right. Huh?

What do you mean? He said I was just he was trying to figure out what you meant by him. Yes, Jesus.

There's and if you don't know who Jesus was because he actually said in John like if you do not know that I am. It's what he said to the Pharisees then you will die in your sins when he said that that's what caused him to get killed.

Because he literally said I am God. He said I am that's the same as the burning bush. He's like if he lets you believe I am. So here's here's the problem we run into okay, and it comes down to definitions.

And it does come down to some things when we say our objective standards the Bible and what it teaches us. Let's take this pole as an example. Okay, can I worship the pole? Free country, right. Right freedom of religion, okay.

If I were to then turn around and tell you that this pole is Jesus Christ, and that makes me a Christian. Does that make me a Christian at that point? It's not semantics by definition am I a Christian if I tell you that this pole is Jesus Christ, and I'm worshiping it.

Okay, why. Why would you say no because that's fair, but why would you say? That's fair, but but what I'm saying is Good. No, what I'm saying is you have a church who claims that like we're worshiping Christ, right?

The Christ of the Bible though is not the brother of Lucifer. He created everything invisible and visible. He was only he was with God from the beginning has always been God. Okay, he wasn't created. There wasn't a brother.

This is all scripture. This is all Bible so with that in mind. It's a definition and now there's another definition that is given. So we have to say which definition is right and the problem with that and when we get to that realm is What does it say in Matthew?

With the people who come to him because let's let's both being you be honest about the current generation and what we're seeing. Right now There is gonna be plenty of people who willingly go to hell. They'll be like, oh, that's who God is.

I'm cool, dude, like there's like it's torment and I didn't like you anyway, okay. But there's going to be a group of people who are going to approach him and say Great work in your name. Did I do everything and what does he tell them?

Depart from me. I never knew and So our our message to the latter-day saint is you are worshiping by definition a false Jesus who cannot save you and in that written in that realm if you keep going down that path, even though you feel like feel What's Jeremiah 16.

Jeremiah says that your heart is deceitful above all things who shall know it. So feelings don't matter. If you look at the definition of God's word and say he let him tell you. They can't save you in that moment, you'll be like I'm good and you're gonna walk up and Like Why and you'll go wailing and gnashing and teeth away from them be like, but I I did it though.

Because think about it this way. The Old Testament temple when he died on the cross. What happened. Okay, what was the significance. What was the significance of that. What would you say. Okay. Okay, it also separated the it also got rid of the separation between and God.

Right because the Holy of Holies was a place that only one guy could go To sprinkle the blood and he had to do it just right. Had a rope on him because if he did it wrong you die and they had to pull him out.

Yeah. But it's still the same God. Yeah, we still have the same God same God that we worship today. It's the same God who claimed killed man woman child puppies. Thank God. There's some people are like that's not my god.

I'm like then you don't know God.

Same guy during my mission. Sorry during my mission of the opportunity.

So with that in mind though. The real thing was it's separated. It got rid of that separation. He said man can go directly to the throne and It ended that separation. You have a church that literally he's put back up the veil.

Even though it was written to in the New Testament. It says that that veil was torn as Jesus breathed his last.

And so that's what he's talking about. And it's a. The separation is now. And you literally have a faith that is built on something. What were the first two lies the serpent told. He knows you'll become like God.

You'll become like God. And. Did God really say that. Well, God said not to eat the fruit. He's like did God really say that. But did he. But did he actually say that.

Satan actually see what he said was a piece of God said that you were you surely will not die.

He didn't try to say that God Know in Genesis, he said. Did God say that. I'm pretty sure you're right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But the point of the matter is is right now and I know it doesn't feel like it.

And it's an emotional. Okay, but surely think about it because we're not we're not playing like nice. Okay, so if you know what Penn and Teller is you're familiar with them. Magicians, yes, so Penn. Jillette.

It's a second paragraph.

I'm sorry. Yeah, it's fine. You're fine here, but first here so he can pull this 3 -1 3 -1. There you go. Oh, there's a TV I'll just.

Pull it where you're probably pulling it from. Yeah, there you go. He actually pulled up more than half the Mormon tools. So there you go. You can look it up. Three there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah half God said.

Yeah, I've got said you shall not eat of every tree in the garden, yeah, did God say that.

Yeah in modern English didn't really say what the serpent is saying is did God not say. Yeah, did he not say so he said three lines did he say that but that but that's what I'm saying. Is he's saying so Seriously actually said to him.

He's like I feel it's me. Hey, it's any kind of religion, but he said I don't respect any Christian who doesn't cross the lights.

I don't respect any Christian who doesn't cross the lights. Shut up, right.

To not tell me yeah that that's a thing. But but it's so funny because out here we talked to a lot of people like you just hate us. I'm like, no, I don't. Actually I worked I just today I went to work at 730.

I'm out here right now talking. Yeah, if I hated y 'all, it'd be simple for me to be like,.

I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna sit with my family and enjoy this, right?

No recommended to go out. So my call to you is this, is right now, you are following a false Christ and a false gospel that cannot save you, okay? And the only way to go around that is to forget all of the extra, to believe in Christ alone, and through the Bible alone, and through faith alone, only to the glory of God alone, not to any of your glory after this life, but only to the glory of God.

And that is the only way to go around sin. Without that, you're going to fall in sin. And it won't be because you're ignorant of it, but it will be because that's what happens. And I know it's not something, and you'll stand there and be like, yeah, whatever, but it's what the truth is based on the Bible and what it says.

You go to like a synagogue or a church.

I respect the government. This is a hard position to think like. This is a town that is predominantly of the LPSC. To stand here, it's a very poor thing to do, especially in front of a temple, right? No.

Well, Paul spoke, right? We get that all the time. I'm like, yeah, Paul didn't speak out of synagogues at all. I'm like, yeah, let's face facts with that one.

I asked my mission president if I could go inside of other chapels and stuff. He said, let's not stir the pot while it's COVID. Well, yeah.

Although I would You wouldn't be able to understand you anyway. You'd have a mask on. Exactly.

I don't know. And I really do respect that you guys are doing this. I will say that for me, I have tried that. When I'm in my teens, I did kind of fall away from the church, and I did listen to the sermon.

Granted, I didn't live what the gospel of Jesus Christ was, and I didn't believe that any Christian or church would say, here's a thing, too. However, during that time, I was looking for myself and for God, and I tried to search back for him, and I did find him.

And for me, I did find a true Christ in the church of God. Can I put something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead, go ahead. By all means. It's his testimony.

It's how he's gonna try to end everything. That is true. No, no, no. But it's such a Trump card. Like, honestly, if we're being real, like past member, two member, you're gonna say that as a way of ending the conversation.

But it also means that, but what he was probably about to say is, by what standard? Because there still has to be a standard that's met.

And by that standard, I'm gonna just say in Galatians 5, which one is it, which one is it? One of those.

The ones that says the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit, peace, love, patience,.

Joy, kindness, all that stuff. And so, I tried to find the fruit of the Spirit when things go wrong.

Can I ask you something about that? It's not there. Go ahead. Do you know any, have you ever seen an atheist that displays peace, love, joy, patience, and kindness? So, that can't be the only thing. We can't just pick and choose out of the Bible, right?

It's true. I'm not picking and choosing out of the Bible.

I, what, my biggest pet peeve for missionaries is they don't read the New Testament. That was my biggest pet peeve. So, I couldn't tell the world. People there, they cannot read at all. And so, what we had to do is that we had to read through the New Testament, find the verses that they were familiar with, and found them in a context so that they would be able to know what it is that you're looking for in the Bible.

And I love that. I grew to love the Bible. I grew to love the book of Mormon. I grew to love the Bible. I respect that. You guys, you change your opinion based on what you're saying right now. So, I don't know.

I'll think about it. This is the eternal salvation of a soldier.

Because think about it this way. Because if we're looking at it in two different lights, okay, let's, for example, say you're right in the moment. Okay, let's take that as a thing. So, your testimony's right, whatever, and you're right in the moment.

Okay, when I die, that means I will go to spirit prison. When that occurs, no, that's theology. No, that's theology. When I die, I will go to spirit prison, in your theology. So, if I go to spirit prison, I guarantee the family that is currently disowning me and everything else will definitely do my work for me.

Okay? At that moment, if I'm staring at it in the face, if it's all real, it's not like I'm gonna say no. Of course, I'm going to say yes, but when I do say yes, what's going to happen, according to your theology, according to doctrine and covenants, is in that light, because I worship Christ in this life, I will go to the terrestrial kingdom.

But there's two things I want you to say. Hold on a second, let me finish before you complete this. Okay, there is another end to this. So, I will go to the terrestrial kingdom, where that is what Jesus calls, and it is explained that you'll be like angels worshiping Jesus for eternity.

That is actually a pretty good definition of evangelical heaven at that point. Or, now let's flip that same script. Let's say you're wrong, and I am right. In that light, we would believe that you only have this life and that alone, and then you are judged.

You do not have a second chance. You do not have these things. So, it's eternal torment after this life if you're wrong. There is no, and so, in that light, either way, in this conversation, I would have it okay.

You would not. However, you wouldn't, because ultimately, everything comes down to the scary day of judgment. No, God is not just. It's not scary when you understand. I know, I was just being provocative.

But the thing with judgment day is that God isn't just gonna judge us for only the things that we did right and wrong. He's gonna judge us based off of a whole bunch of different kinds of variables that we don't even understand, down to the very brain chemistry.

Of what our natural being is. The only people, sorry, I have to, you're in error, respectfully. The only people that are gonna be judged in that sense is according to their works are the people who do not believe.

The people, everyone else is going to be, the only standard by which we're judged as believers is if we truly believed or not. If we were truly born again, like Jesus says in John three to Nicodemus, you must be born again by water and by spirit, right?

Water in that light means you're born. Yeah. You come out of water. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. So you guys don't believe in baptism? We don't believe in sainthood.

It's an outward showing of an inward. We're Baptists. It's not a self-evident thing. Oh, you're, oh. Yeah, so. That context is not good. No, no, that's fine. I just, I figured that would clear it right up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so yeah, you must be born again. There's a changing of the heart. So in Ezekiel 36, 26 through 27, God tells, speaks to Ezekiel in a dream about the valley of dry bones and all the death of Israel, right?

He says, I will, I will, Ezekiel says, can you make this, can you make these bones live? And God says, I will take out the heart of stone and I will put it in the heart of flesh and I will give new life.

And that's, that's a, that's pointing toward Christ and what he did on the cross. And so when the spirit indwells us, there's a changing of the heart from stone to flesh, figuratively, obviously. But it's not, it's not that we're gonna be judged on our works.

That's a very, very Catholic belief. That's where purgatory comes from.

You know what I mean? And it's also an LDS belief. I'd like to also.

Revelation 2012, because it says that the book of death will be open in that book. Right, the book of death.

But in the context. The book of life, sorry. But the book of life, meaning, so that's, that's the difference when we believe in an intuited righteousness, which is what it talks about in the Bible. Where so God, so God, so God indwells, indwells you.

So when God is judging you, all he sees is the righteousness of Christ on you because he, his blood covers you. So it has nothing to do with right or wrong or anything else you've done. It's a gift of grace because the Bible actually only says the only thing you work for, which is wages, right?