April 19, 2017 Show with C. Matthew McMahon on “The Calling of the Ministry”

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Good.

Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this

19th day of April 2017 before I go to our

interview today or two before I introduce my guest today I have a prayer request

For the family of a dear friend of mine a dear friend of mine who went home to be with the

Lord last week.

In fact, it was April 12th of this year last week That

my friend William Norman Grigg went home to be with the Lord at 54 years of age

after a heart attack.

William Norman Grigg Will be a name recognizable for those of

my listeners who happen to be Christian libertarians, especially who are politically

libertarian or constitutionalists.

William Norman Grigg was the former senior editor of the New American magazine

and quite a brilliant man quite a genius a former Mormon who

converted to Biblical Christianity when he discovered the true Christ and true

gospel of the scriptures and I had quite a number of occasions where

I was blessed to have William Norman Grigg on this program on the old iron sharpens

iron radio that was broadcasting out of New York on WNYG and WGBB

radio and Norman leaves behind a wife and six children.

Please pray for them.

This is obviously quite devastating since Norman was such a young man.

As I said 54 years of age.

He went home to be with the Lord, but thankfully obviously He as I mentioned he

was a Christian before leaving this planet.

He loved his Lord dearly and put his full trust in the finished work of Christ alone

for his redemption and salvation and pray for his Mormon

parents.

I believe his parents may still be alive and I believe they were alive when I was interviewing him a number of years ago.

And I know that he has other he has siblings.

He was an adopted child and so he does still obviously

have Mormons in his family pray for their salvation pray that as they.

They hear about more and more about William Norman Grigg's testimony of conversion that the Lord

uses.

The rehearing of that testimony as it echoes in their ears to Finally draw

drive them to their knees and repentance and cry out to the true God and the true Christ of Scripture.

I plan on at some point airing some reruns of William Norman Grigg

interviews in memory of him and I hopefully will soon have At least

a couple of those posted on Facebook and other places so you can hear Those interviews

one in particular which he is giving the account of his Salvation and his

coming to the true Christ and true gospel of Scripture where he actually breaks down in tears during the interview it's quite

a moving interview and So God willing I will be able to share those with you the

public very soon.

So keep that family.

The immediate family and also the larger family of the Grigg Family in your prayers

and especially those Mormon relatives and Perhaps even more

especially his wife and six children Who are mourning very?

Severely very deeply after this loss.

Well today we have on the program again Someone who's becoming

quickly one of my favorite guests on iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. C Matthew McMahon founder of a Puritan's mind.

And we are going to be addressing The calling of the ministry and this is actually

also the title of a book by William Perkins who is

a 16th century figure from church history and his

book the calling of the ministry has been brought back into print by Puritan publications, which

is Also an organization founded by my guest see Matthew McMahon.

That's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to orange opens on radio.

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.

Happy to be here Chris.

Glad to be here.

Great topic great Puritan.

Great discussions.

We always have so I look forward to it and in studio with me is my co -host the Reverend buzz Taylor and good

morning.

Good morning afternoon.

That's right.

You're the one that's supposed to mess up the times.

And let me announce right now our email address, it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And before we even go into the subject at hand Dr. McMahon, I'd like to know something about William Perkins

who?

Wrote the content of what we will be discussing today.

Well.

Capable treats on number of great

contributions wrote a number of Fantastic works almost everything that you read by

him.

And when I

say that I mean that he has a pastorally tender heart in the way that

he deals with the subject matter.

Well at the same time being an eminent scholar

early age.

You keep in mind that his years are a bit earlier than most of the Puritans that

one would study generally Puritanism is going to reach from about

The mid 1550s all the way 1660s.

Perkins he was born in 1558 he died at 1602.

But he was one of what we would

these these early

Puritans are amazing.

They were the ones

who are information

all that doctrine That was coming to light out of things like Luther's writings

and Calvin's Institutes

and

such

and

inside

of circles

that were then

connected

happens if you

are

lost

is

Teaching them take their fingers and follow along

these so he

wrote all sorts of great expositions on

Galatians

of

men,

you know

melancholy depression happiness that is all in in The

early days they put inside

of a

three individual books.

We've done the order of the causes of salvation and

damnation we've foundation of the Christian religion Gathered in six

principles.

That's another one we should topping

people

leave

just as

you were

just

talking

about leave this planet and Enter heaven in an amiable way

and how that should be done.

You can see that Perkins was one of

those very much known what

it was that

he was supposed to be For

reading

books

yet did

it so

known as

Lorraine

that

way had no.

We know of you

read in many of his

treaty you you want to get to know.

And so you

didn't a

little bit of

a background of Perkins, so

you don't really think very highly of this Perkins

Writing

Cleanest of the gospel

of heaven with all

of his writings and all in

connecting the mind Acting it with the

intention of the Holy Spirit and whatever it is that he's teaching.

That's why I said,

I mean you just

read just it would

never have.

I would never

have seen that reading that on my own and It's amazing

all things out of the air they thoughtfully deal with the text and when they

do that, that's where they mine out Apple and.

His parents or it at the very least his grandparents Certainly would have been around

during the Reformation.

What kind of a family life is in regard to religion and faith that he grew up in.

He grew up in a pious house sometimes when you deal with.

Having information about the Puritan even some of the really really great.

One of the last Conversations and interviews that we did a month ago or so

was on Thomas Hodges.

But you know, there's just not a lot of information on Thomas Hodges.

You just don't have all that we would like.

We we know just a little bit.

He grew up in a godly household and we don't really start having.

A.

Lot of information until after his conversion because he he was actually

Very devoted to the sin of inverted.

And while he was walking through the town He heard a young woman say to her child hold your tongue or I'll

give you to drunken Perkins Wow, and and so they used that as as something

that was baby heard that and as a result of hearing that Seeing that he was a byword in

that way among the people his conscience began to grip him and he became so deeply impressed.

But to conversion so it wasn't long after he became a very

strong exponent of Calvinism and Became a fellow

at the college that he attended at the age of 24.

And then

it wasn't until the age of ordained to the ministry began his

ministry and preaching.

He actually began preaching in prisons

in one room and

he wound up be

by God

to bring

salvation

to a

number of people.

Diversity.

And then he was chosen.

Amen.

Let me announce our.

Email address again, Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

If you have a question for dr. C Matthew McMahon about the calling of the ministry or about

specifically William Perkins and There is

Already a kinship I feel with Brother Perkins because I was delivered from the same addiction

myself by the grace of Christ I was I too was an alcoholic who?

reached Unfortunately scandalous levels of drunkenness that were known to the public and so on.

So I I am very thankful to God that he has delivered me and I'm also

thankful to discover other brethren in Christ both from the

present and the past who were delivered from that same sin.

We have a Question that I normally wouldn't perhaps go to

questions this quickly, but this I think will help set the tone of Our discussion since it

is related to this the subject.

Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire says I have often heard the call to ministry

distinguished between an internal call having a God -given burden for ministry and an

external call Having the necessary character and gifting and having this affirmed by leaders of the

church.

Did you speak on the importance of?

Aspiring pastors to pay close attention to an external call to ministry.

This seems vitally important.

Especially since I have seen many Lone Ranger men enter ministry without the affirmation of elders

without having their gifts Evaluated and sadly without the proper character, but they proceed to ministry

because of their own Subjective feelings that's excellent question actually.

Yes, that's a great question.

That is the heart of this work by Perkins and That is what he's he's

showing and what he's explaining based on both the Joe passage

And the Isaiah 6 passage we can talk about those in a moment.

But as he just asked This is the desire itself is

Something that is a noble desire.

First Timothy 3 1 if a man decides the office of a bishop he desires a good work.

So the desire in and of itself is a good thing now whether or

not that person is necessarily first fit for the office and What his

inclinations are as to why he wants to go into the ministry.

Those things have to be hashed out.

John Newton said no one but God can make a minister of the gospel and that's an important

note Perkins is going to agree with him 250 years before Newton was around and

It's not repugnant in any way to desire the office.

That means that there's a There's a there's a pious desire there which a

man Voluntarily devotes himself to the church, but then he is going to

commit the judgment Concerning himself to others and he'll wait for a lawful

call.

So there's there's two part and call to the ministry.

There's the internal call and there's the external call and

when you deal with both

Perkins when he talks about.

The.

Ministry begins by Dealing with the text first he deals

with and he deals with chapter 33 more in particular

verses 23 and 24 and just so let

me read that to you 3

and 24 if there is a Messenger for him a mediator one

among a thousand to show a man his uprightness.

Then he is gracious to heaven says deliver him from going down to the pit.

I have found a ransom.

So that's the first also the

second text because he deals with first three

speaks directly to the one that God places as a mediator between

him and the people and then he also talks about the confirmation of

Isaiah in Isaiah 6 and let me just read that just so that's out there as well and the year

that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting on a throne high and lifted up and the train of his robe filled the temple.

Above it stood seraphim each one having six wings with two he covered his face with two he covered his feet with two he flew.

And one cried to another and said holy Holy holy is the Lord of hosts the whole earth is full of his glory.

The posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out and the house was filled with smoke.

So I said woe is me now.

This is Isaiah.

Woe is me for I am undone because I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell in the midst of a people of

Unclean lips for my eyes have seen the king the Lord of hosts and one of the seraphim flew to me.

Having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar and he touched my mouth with it said behold

This has touched your lips.

Your iniquity is taken away and your sin is purged.

Also, I heard the voice of the Lord saying whom shall I send and who will go for us?

Then I said here am I send me and he said go and tell his people keep on

hearing.

But do not understand keep on seeing.

But to Perkins uses both of these two texts to

explain What it means to actually be inward and outwardly called He

and he begins it by showing that The point of the

passage in his mercy

God uses means

Mediator concerned with the means and the remedies

that God uses in Rescuing his people.

Demonstrating how they can be righteous and how they can be delivered from the pit.

And so he says that these words in Job contain a valuable

Description of a true minister.

They describe him in five ways.

By his title.

He's a messenger and an interpreter by his rarity or he'll say

Scarcity, he is one of a thousand now that in and of itself

Eliminate a Number of people who immediately think well, I

desire the office so I should be in the office.

There's more to it than the desire I'll give let me give you a pause there on number two and just give you an

instance of what I mean.

You are and this is actually

a true thing.

I went to college he loves sport

and he knew

he knew all the players patterns.

He knew the

runs and

you every anyone

King wet yet.

It's hard all the

necessary skill while

him on the team

even though someone desires that particular

and so

as much as there must be.

Harkin says

there's a messenger and interpreter number one.

He's ray a blessing

that God

gives to his labors and

number five by his Commission and Authority

in the last Words God

will say the

title of that.

He's an interpreter as

my friend

talking.

He said when I was going to

college Or right

before and one of the elders in the church had a conversation with him and

Said they got into reading the Bible and he said yeah I've read the Bible and the elder was like

you've read the Bible.

Yes.

I've read the Bible the whole Bible from cover to cover.

Yes, I've read the whole Bible from cover to cover it never but you should be at the ministry.

You should be in the doctor that you you're in In some way to that elder in

the midst of the church that he was attending.

He was doing more Religiously speaking or in some pious

way who had not done that and so that seemed to be the

qualification to send him off to Bible College and

Intended and that's what they initially began to do with them reading your

Bible from cover to cover is something that Every Christian should be yearly doing.

One of the things that I think People lose in thinking about a minister is that

everything that the Christian ought to be doing the minister should be doing.

Already.

Not that the Bible that suddenly makes him fit to be in the ministry

because then you have the exact opposite of that of another friend and he has

Been in the ministry for so

called the time that he went to then he went to

Seminary got his MDIV his Masters of Divinity Sent by his church

to be able to do that.

I kid you not.

This was the conversation not but a month ago that I had with him.

And I was like, well, why don't you we were just talking about something.

So why don't you preach from?

You know the minor prophets.

Well, I haven't read the minor prophets.

What.

Well I haven't read the minor prophets yet.

Let me ask you a question.

Have you read your Bible all the way through?

No, I have not read my Bible all the way through.

I'm like, okay, let's back the truck up for a second.

So you you've gone through.

College.

Christian college who've gone through seminary.

You have an MDIV and you've not read the Bible all the way through at one point.

I haven't read the minor prophets.

I've not read Chronicles or Kings.

I haven't read through parts of Hebrews.

I haven't read Revelation.

It's like thinking about this

inclination we're like pushing people

into that particular position without having them be Qualified for the actual office.

It says first thing we need to understand is

a messenger and an interpreter.

He's a messenger.

He's a messenger of the Lord of hope and in Thinking through that just

that thought alone should cause every minister to shudder.

You're going on behalf of God to the people to be the

mouthpiece.

For God to those people you are to be in that particular manner

the of their never

-dying soul to

do that

speak not the Word of God, but as the Oracles of God not only the Word of God.

But as of God themselves speak

God's Word family and what happened

last Christmas and and then tie it up a lot of time.

Even in our sermon is to be nice

instead the minister ought to be showing their faithfulness to the message.

Which God has as Perkins has honored us, too.

And it therefore must be purely studied and delivered

but all those who are God's messenger to be

honored as Ambassadors of God to fulfill the responsibility of God's messengers

because if they don't do that They take away the power and majesty of God's Word in the way that they

deliver it.

They have to be

take the Word of God and expound it.

They didn't need to know how to do that.

They need to be familiar with the word before they can even expound it.

They need to be familiar with it because what if you preach in one particular Area out of the

gospel of John, but you don't know that.

For some reason you don't know that Isaiah said something contrary to the particular message that you think should come

out of John chapter 12 and you have a contradiction, but you don't know that because you haven't read Isaiah

familiar skill.

And we have to go to a break right now.

And by the way, Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire, you have won a free copy of the book that we

are Addressing the calling of the ministry by William Perkins.

Compliments of Puritan publications and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible book service will be shipping that out

to you.

So look for a package from CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service.

Calm CV BBS.

Calm.

And I'm gonna read a question For you and allow you to answer it after the break.

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island wants to know.

I know that all Christians in the ministry worth their salt.

Would have a high level of importance on hermeneutics.

But did William Perkins also have a high level of importance placed on hermeneutics.

The manner in which the Word of God is preached.

And you could answer that when we return from the break and.

Anybody else who'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with dr. C. Matthew McMahon.

And more of our discussion.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours as dr C Matthew McMahon founder of

a Puritan's mind today We are addressing the calling of the ministry.

If you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And before I repeat the question that was asked by Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island.

It's interesting.

Dr. McMahon that my first pastor founder of

solid ground Christian books actually He years ago, I would say probably over

20 years ago.

Perhaps even 30 years ago.

He was on a review board of a man who was seeking ordination into

the ministry and he was really

Soundly rebuked by the other men on the review panel merely because he was

questioning the candidate on the minor prophets and

Was disturbed that the the man had little knowledge of them.

So it was kind of it's kind of interesting that you brought up that analogy there.

But anyway, that's a pretty sad commentary, I mean obviously he was just doing what was expected.

I'm only was interviewing a man that was entering the one of the most important callings

that a human being can enter into On this earth and they were lambasting him for being

too harsh, but anyway.

Right.

Before we went to the break Ronald in eastern Suffolk County said did Perkins put As high

of you as high a view of importance on homiletics as he did on hermeneutics.

The answer to that question is yes and That's why you

sermons is

an everyday task a

tremendous responsibility and by no means.

Easy, in fact, it is doubtful if there is a more difficult challenge in the

theological disciplines and that of homiletics.

Sermon preparation.

Subject matter which is a higher gift indeed whether we

think about it dig without getting to

sidetracked.

Yeah, her homiletics was exceedingly

important and At the end of that particular work what he does is he puts he?

He puts a little summation at the end where he shows

teaching.

Involves this if you want to boil it down to just four points.

This is what it is.

And this is where homiletics comes into play as the sister of hermeneutics.

Number one the preacher is going to read the text clearly from the canonical scriptures.

I can't tell you how many times I've sat in sermons and the preacher has not read the scripture that they're preaching on.

It's odd that they would even think that way explain the meaning of it.

Once it has been read in light of the scriptures themselves.

Number three Gathering a few profitable points of doctrine from the natural sense of the passage

and number four applying the doctrine explained to the life and practice of the congregation and so he

combines both patient and of

the sermon and All the puritans did this all this is this exact same thing read the

text you open it.

It give me the doctrine from these

upon the kind of sermon it in it is it might be of auditory Sermon some kind of encouraging sermon

it might be a doctrinal sermon.

It might be something that comes out of it historical narrative.

But they're still going to do that and that they're going to apply it they all did the same thing.

This is not like some reason what people

are learning today in seminary are the application sermon as if

Compartmentalizing in taking this information and structuring it in such a way as to

precisely deliver it.

That was one

of the reasons

why all of

these because they

wrote everything

out and all of it.

Not only do you

have to get the

passage?

We also have to communicate it in a way

into men's mind as Richard Baxter.

You could be really good at hermeneutics and be terrible and homiletics and that's not going to

help the people.

I think I mentioned Samuel Willard.

He was a in Boston during his nephew

came in one one week and he preached in a day that Samuel Willard could not be at the

church and The nephew then on that Monday said to him it didn't go over very well.

I don't think they received it very well, and so Samuel Willard took his sermon and He

preached that same sermon word for word and it went over very well.

So it's all in in that particular instance.

It was all how he was saying it how he was.

Emphasizing it emphasized how he was loud how he was soft all of those

things fall under the rubric of Homiletics, and so if you could be a great interpreter, but if you

don't wind up.

Being able to communicate what it is that you've just interpreted.

You're not going to be a very good messenger entering that briefly in that way

yes, perkin being able to preach well and

That's what he says in terms of titles out of this Job passage.

He has to be a messenger.

He's going on behalf of God to be this.

God says people should seek the law from his mouth that is the minister.

That's Malachi 2 7.

They're doing that then he ate that

information.

So not only does he have to interpret, but he has to take

that word and Be able to deliver it to the people as a messenger.

The homiletics is it is just as important as her minute X and a number of ways and.

Perkins was very hardy on that Ronald an Eastern Suffolk County.

Thank you for the question and you are also getting a free copy of The calling of the ministry by William Perkins

compliments of Puritan publications and compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Cv

bbs .com.

So keep your eye open and in the mail for a package from CV for Cumberland Valley BBS

for Bible Book Service.

Calm.

We have RJ and White Plains New York who has a similar question.

He says I know fundamentalists who don't think that a sermon is real preaching unless the

pastor is Shouting as loud as can be and shaking the rafters and

others from the Presbyterian and other reformed backgrounds barely go

above the level of a whisper and sometimes preach with all the enthusiasm and passion

as if they are a trigonometry.

Teacher is The tone of voice and the volume of voice at all important according to

Perkins and according to your guest.

Yes, and yes you

we talked about John Brinsley, and he

should be preached

plainly.

Homiletics, you don't shout for the sake of shouting you or speak

loudly just because you.

Things are tools

and the creature's voice is.

Extremely.

Useful in the proper way, which means some things should be

made plain and But he shouldn't be monotone At the same time he shouldn't be screaming from the top of

his lungs at the same time that's just as as Distracting he wants to be able to

communicate most effectively Which means in writing out his sermon in knowing what it

is that he's going to say he's going to place.

This is what for me personally This is what I would do or

I will put asterisks where I need certain.

There are useful tools with the voice and

Dabney talks about it Vinay talks about it.

In.

Dealing with your voice in the right way.

Talk about how to raise your voice or lower your voice.

He's utilizing homiletics in the way of how to rightly communicate

these and be able to Send it out in a way that

it's understood.

But it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to yell your sermon that that would in many ways be Distracting and you'll

lose many people by just shouting your sermon.

That doesn't mean that many of the preachers didn't shout or didn't raise their voice.

Had to shout.

He was in the field to see that the practical application when you have 10 ,000 people Surrounding you

and you need all of them to hear you and you have no microphone and you're in the middle of a field up On a small hill.

You have to shout so everybody could hear you.

Spurgeon did the same thing.

Yeah, you have to shout.

Which field it says in his bio that many times.

He came in and he would be spitting up blood because he was.

Sure, but I know that Benjamin Franklin was absolutely

astonished by the loudness of his voice.

Yes, he he attended a number

of.

Why are you here?

You don't believe any of that?

Excellent answer.

Yeah, excellent answer, but at the same time a rebuke to him.

Yes, of course.

So in any case you're you want to use your voice in the right way.

You don't want to be so low that no one can hear you.

You want to be able to speak boldly and plainly but at the Same time you're not screaming your sermons.

You're going to be wise in the way that you use.

Yeah, if you want to highlight an important fact by raising your voice if everything is yelled.

Nothing is gonna be highlighted because everything is gonna be lost in the same volume.

But anyway, we have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an Hour to

go is dr. C. Matthew McMahon Founder of a Puritan's mind we are addressing the calling

of the ministry.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arns and at gmail .com Chris Arns and at

gmail .com.

Before I return to our discussion. I have a couple of important announcements.

The Alliance of confessing Evangelicals wants me to remind you that this is the

last week for registration for the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology Which is going to be held April

28th through the 30th at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.

The featured speakers include Richard Phillips Carl Truman and Daniel Doriani.

If you would like to register go to Alliance net org Alliance net org click on

events and then click on the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology 2017 the theme is

Reformation recovering the essence of the gospel.

Once again, that is April 28th through the 30th at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr,

Pennsylvania.

Go to Alliance net org Alliance net org also

the banner of truth, which is well known as being one of the finest publishers of

Christian literature from the past and present Around today as well as being a

ministry that sends out speakers to Preach at

conferences and so on they are having their 2017 ministers conference

Tuesday May 30th through Thursday, June 1st in Elizabethtown Pennsylvania

at Elizabethtown College.

The theme is the living and enduring word and the speakers include. Dr Joel Beakey

Jeff Thomas William Vander Ward Mark Johnston Jonathan master Carlton Wynn

and Ian Hamilton.

And if you are a minister or leader in your church and you'd like to register for that go to banner of

truth org banished banner of truth org and click on events then click on US

ministers conference.

Of course if you live in the United Kingdom, and I know that many of our listeners do live in the UK.

Click on any of the several UK ministers conferences that they list Under the

events section if you'd like to attend one of those events but once again go to banner of truth org

banner of truth org and I believe I forgot to Give

our last questioner.

The good news that he is also won a free copy of the book the calling of the ministry by William Perkins

compliments of Puritan publications.

If you'd like to join us as well, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and we have pastor sterling van der Worker of Shepherds Fellowship in

Greensboro, North Carolina.

He says Perkins is my favorite Puritan.

He says ooh Is this is the chart for double predestination?

In the book it is my favorite resource on the sovereignty of God and salvation.

Does the guest know of other Perkins works that relate to the same subject and I'm assuming he's talking about

double predestination.

Great Puritan exciting.

He also adds.

Yes, all around I'll agree with them and.

Yes, and no we we reproduce the chart and the chart

is in Downloadable fashion when you get the e -book

from if you get the print book Then it is in there.

But you have to keep in mind that because of the size of a six by nine book What we did is

we broke up the chart on various pages as he dealt with that the

tick the e -book side.

We actually included the PDF chart.

It's like an 11 by 17 Size chart you'd be able to you know, use it print it out.

What have you but in the printed book?

It's in pieces half dozen depending upon which way you want to go.

But yeah Perkins is great and I would agree with them.

One of my favorite great.

We have Daniel in Bakersfield, California.

My question for Matthew McMahon is how does a minister know for certain they are

called to the ministry?

Feelings can be very subjective and fluctuate over time.

You hear stories about pastors Burning out and one wonders if they were called to the

ministry in the first place.

Yeah.

Great question in dealing with that particular point.

Perkins is going to explain the idea of calling is

Revolted you have to have it and I wouldn't enter you then not

make it subjective.

It's it's an Impossibility on the end

not be subjectively affected by the internal call in some way because

it is You so you don't want to be

thrown off from the idea that oh, it's a subjective experience now that

doesn't.

Speak to what happens to someone later in their ministry when they've been thinking

about what it means to be called I think We often think

well, I'm called to be an engineer I'm called to be

An artist or I'm called to be a policeman.

You know when we apply the word called to some kind of profession of

what we would consider a temporal order We only understand it as

equivalent to like talents.

We have or aptitude that we have in that particular thing or taste to it.

But when we when we talk about it in lieu of the ministry

It's legitimately the ministry as a minister as a messenger and interpreter.

We have to be called someone says well

well, there's a difference between taking somebody in a church and Saying

hey to be a minister.

Well, sure.

I would like to be a minister.

Well, let's place you in that position and see how you do in comparison to the one who has a

voluntarily consecrated ministry and is

demonstrating that ministry naturally in their inclinations.

With those in the church, but that doesn't mean that they push the path.

But in the very three in

Titus other scriptures that talk about

how they're to come out

of them will confirm that to them because the idea of calling

is really the idea of consecration

like God has

given

builders

or

pastor

are

able to convene with that person and Cultivate the

gifts that they they need

to be.

Having an eye to have those abilities.

They think you are.

How are these people gifted or topic but the

one who?

Desires those tied

to that office.

He has to be sent

terms of

Isaiah with

Perkins dead.

He said here am I Lord?

Send me to the pastor

is a charge.

It is a ministry, but it implies ascending so one can no more be a minister without a call.

Than anyone else that has no you

can't just get on the Supreme Court.

You have to be called to it.

You have to be examined all of those things they have to have an eye to making sure that it's the right person and such.

In this case, it's even elevated higher because it is God who does the sending subjectively

and yet at the same time.

It is something that outwardly both those things have to work together in order to see that so

it's going to still remain in the subjective realm personally,

but it's also going to be something in which you cannot do anything else

other than That when he says but his word was in

my heart like a burning fire shut up in my bones.

I was wearing of holding it back and I could not someone who

want who desires the tap of a minister can do

and Has the ability to do anything else and is okay to do something else as well as do

this.

Then subjectively they should see this has not yet been applied to them in that

convicting manner.

They should be thinking.

This is what God has called me to do.

This is what I'm going to do and now I'm going to wait for and all of my Exercising of these

particular gifts.

I'm going to wait for a lawful call from those people outside of me in my church.

Call me then to his and having that

in a subjective way Really starts with the way that

Perkins when he says listen.

You need to think is that you're getting yourself into because one.

You got to be a messenger on behalf of God too you have to have the skill and

then in the next chapter he talks about the scarcity of ministers, so

three you have to be thinking about hey, am I that guy and

When we say that guy, I mean, I think every single church on the planet should devour

Job 33 and really think about this when in lieu of needing a pastor

that they Want to see visibly before them as they interview people.

What that person's reaction is when they ask them a simple question.

Like are you one in a thousand?

Are you that guy and How that

person well, you know.

Because if you answer it boldly, then you're really not being humble and that could be a point against you so to speak.

But then if you go into the humble zone and you kind of go well.

That's also a good way to deal with that question.

But the minister who is one in a thousand is going to be able to handle that question in a way that

answers it in the affirmative while at the same time.

Difficulty of the way the question is posed as Perkins is the one who's asking the question throughout that entire

second chapter.

Because the subjective experience of a person going into the ministry.

I can't

remember which

one of

they both

wrote books.

One of them was he

said You know we were

talking about so nitpicky

about everything that you know would be really needed.

For a minister to be a minister with every single candidate.

Well, we would hardly have enough people to you know.

Be pastors in our churches where the minister replied and he said well I think though that

it would be better than to have

the minister.

He has a particular He has a particular directly

to God's sending and So in doing that There has to

be a particular perspective that that he has.

He has to be the guy who thinks to himself.

I'm the one that God is giving authority to rescue such -and -such people

from damnation.

I'm the one that has to be the herald be the messenger and communicate the message in such a way as to

Demonstrate how this person can be righteous in the sight of God how God will then pity them deliver

them from the pit.

I'm that guy and so I think every search committee should be asking that question.

Are you one in a thousand and I think everyone should be

able to say.

I'm not trying to be prideful here, but I want to answer your

question in a way that coincides with what God's Word specifically says and I

believe that I am one in a thousand and here's the reasons why come

out of the minister's mouth and Deal with that in a biblical manner.

Because it's such an unusual phrase in an unusual thought.

We just want to make sure that the minister can shake people's hands in the right way and has a smile on his face.

No, no.

We want him to be one in a thousand.

Are you that guy and so Perkins takes a whole chapter in Dealing with

that idea, you know, Paul said who is Sufficient for these things in 2

Corinthians 2 16 now who's deficient, you know.

It's not a surprise then Perkins will say it's not a surprise then.

When someone says I'm not sufficient.

That's an okay thing.

Then God is calling you don't want to force

you for that.

You're not sent to because no one should want to get into that particular position.

Whom God is not sending God is not with them then in that particular position in that particular

way.

They're not they're not or called and confirmed as Isaiah was

in Isaiah 6 I'll go.

Isaiah says no no, no and the Lord then sends him

and confirms in both

these ministers.

Thousand being able to I mean you got to be one in a thousand in so many different ways and that doesn't mean that a Minister

doesn't have strength and weaknesses, but he should be

Overabundant on this that are non -negotiable.

There are whole denominations and I'm probably getting trouble for saying that there are whole denominations of ministers.

Who have elders that are not required to be apt to teach in which they can go

online and pull down a? Sermon that somebody else has written and read that in

their church because they don't have the skills to be able to put together.

Their own sir.

I don't even understand.

Yeah, some people or some churches might just think that it'd be great to have an elder who has vast experience

in the corporate world.

Making money so they think you can be qualified for an elder or something like that a lot

of times.

I think in churches find the term

elders who's involved with the church.

That's been there for a long time who's been a faithful member or maybe even an older

person.

They define elder in that particular manner.

Well, I mean if that's the case that you're going to a

number that were not very

great died when he was in his 20s.

And and to read any of Andrew Gray's sermons.

There's some of the best sermons you'll ever read in your entire life.

Robert Murray McShane.

Robert Murray McShane died at 29.

Exactly McShane Gillespie.

Who are we going to.

X does it mean?

Oh

because

they're

all

their

numbers

to be increased

trained them.

And so he places the

ministers in a church being able to train up the Paul to the Timothy

Diligently being able to take those that they're spying out seeing their giftedness and be able to

train them up in the faith.

I mean, I remember spending personally spent five years in a church and asked them

You know, what do you have ends up young ministers?

And after a year of asking the elders finally said no, we just we just don't have that

but that should be.

That is that is a commanded prayer that Christ says pray the Lord of

the harvest.

Send out workers plentiful the workers are few we should be

cultivating solid ministers and yet at the same time we should

be thinking that there one in a thousand and

universities and Cranking out one in a thousand all the

time sending those people out instead of here you go.

You can have an MDiv here.

You go.

You can have an MDiv.

They don't even know if the person's read their Bible yet.

It's it's amazing what we will allow live in that way

in such when

we look at history.

People wouldn't die.

They would

be burned

at the we

have to get a

break

right now.

And by the way.

Daniel in Bakersfield, California you have won our last copy of the calling of the ministry by William

Perkins and We thank you for your question and keep your eye open in the mail.

For a package from CV BBS comm that CV for Cumberland Valley BB for

Bible book s for service comm CV BBS comm we also thank Puritan

publications For giving us these books to give away and if you'd like to join us on the air

You better send in your email now because we already have Quite a number of listeners who are waiting to have their questions asked

and answered.

So our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And before I go to the break, I'm gonna read a question for you.

Dr. McMahon BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania wants to know.

I know that sometimes a Pastor's qualifications or lack thereof to be in the

ministry may be The root cause of a church not growing or even

shrinking.

But don't you think that sometimes it is the very reason that he is a faithful Proclaimer of biblical

truth that the church is not growing and and perhaps even shrinking because of the

unpopular Level of Truth the unpopularity that

truth has in the 21st century.

And we're gonna go to the break and we'll have you answer that when we return.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back after these messages with dr. C Matthew McMahon, so don't go away.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 25 minutes to go Is dr C

Matthew McMahon founder of a Puritan's mind and We have been addressing the calling of the ministry.

Our email address If you have a question is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And before the break We had a question from BB in Cumberland County,

Pennsylvania as to the issue of whether or

not a pastor should automatically Be judged as unworthy of his calling just because

there is a lack of church growth or because the church is shrinking.

The answer to that is no.

Not immediately that way you you have to think of it biblically in the sense that

the ministerial success

on divine Sovereignty

secular note knowing that God's will is going to be

accomplished.

No matter what there is a certain Idea that the

minister should have that they should earnestly desire and expect.

Success.

Success doesn't mean 10 ,000 in attendance

a large auditorium millions of dollars that

the outlook itself the fulfilling of the Commission itself and Doing

as God requires is first and foremost success.

So if the person is called if the minister is called and he is doing what God requires him to do It may be because

God never says.

This is an important point.

God never says that a particular church in a particular local geographical area is ordained

to be.

Never says that.

Example number one.

Jonah is sent to Nineveh.

He does not want to go say it

lightly to go.

He spends three days in the belly of the fish and he's spewed out of the fish's

mouth onto the beach at a city Where they worship fish.

God he starts walking through the midst of the city and says repent.

And in the course of his preaching According to

the scripture the city repents from the king down to the lowest.

Now it was a particular person in A particular situation that needed to

be done in a particular way in order for success in that particular city.

May not have been that if the Apostle Paul if he had lived at

that time just to use the illustration Walked along the sandy shore happened to come upon and

everyone started walking to the street and said the same thing.

God may not have blessed that particular preacher in that particular manner the

extraordinary circumstances of Jonah.

Being.

Puked onto the beach in front of them probably looking quite terrible

being in the belly and acids of the fish's stomach for three days and.

Not only that it wasn't a turtle. It wasn't an octopus.

It was a fish.

And all of those things and all of those are in doing at that particular

point once you know He repented from his rebellion to go do what God wanted him to do and preach to the

city and God blessed that now.

Turn the corner go back a few hundred years and we have Joshua going into the city of

Jericho.

We God must not have been very missionary.

Minded for the for the people of God to go into the city of Jericho and only get one convert out of it.

Which was Rahab.

How do those things work themselves out?

The size of a congregation is.

To the overall idea of now that doesn't mean that we

don't want to see certain things occur under our ministry.

It does want.

It does mean though that the minister should be faithful to do what God has instructed them to do.

Knowing that divine sovereignty is that which attests to ministerial success?

So it may be a whole.

Whole.

Various different ideas.

There are different circumstances where the town is located.

Maybe a minister goes in.

This was the case with a number of ministers during the Puritan era where they went into a

town and the town was flooded with Jesuits and It took many

years many many laborious years to get few converts.

So we don't suddenly say well just because the church doesn't have you know 200 people 300 people

and it didn't grow to 500 people and That doesn't mean that that minister is not being

successful yet.

At the same time we discern.

What's going on in those particular places?

What if the minister says?

Listen, I've been a minister of the church for 10 years and

The church has not grown at all.

He's canceled the evening service.

He doesn't want to teach anything during the week.

Because he has too much on his plate to preach one time a week.

He wants to do some evangelism.

But that's been far and few between going out in the inner city to preach here or there yet.

He wants a raise because he's only making $90 ,000 a year and he'd like a hundred.

Situation.

Interestingly in situations like that they're vain

and why is it?

Why are they?

Losing people instead of gaining people.

Are the people being abused.

Are the people being fed?

Are they being catechized or is he visiting them?

Is he taking care.

Is he their cure thing?

Right

is the one that

you don't

know anything up

that what God is doing coming out of a

small congregation of you know 10 or 15 people but that job was was

called sent congregation for the good of those people.

Maybe he's the one that God wants to use to raise up that next person who might and.

We have a word of encouragement from Linda in Hilltop Lake, Texas.

Today with dr. McMahon has confirmed so much of what we believe about being in the ministry.

I'll be sharing the recording with others in my family who need this confirmation.

Prayers for continued blessings for my beloved iron sharpens iron radio broadcast.

Thank you so much Linda.

That means the world to me and I'm sure it means a lot to dr. McMahon as well.

Yes, very much.

So and let's see we have a Bunch of other people here and I don't know

if we're gonna be able to get to all of them.

But we have let's see.

We have.

Oh We have Joe in Slovenia.

And Joe in Slovenia.

I have to quickly enlarge his question because his typeface is font is

microscopic and Joe in Slovenia says.

Please ask dr. McMahon to disclose to us.

What in his assessment is the most prevalent?

Common denominator shared by William Perkins and the other great Puritans that he speaks so passionately about.

As he describes Perkins and those like him in terms that are at such distressing odds with those in our

pulpits all over the planet.

Who gain a paycheck but give little else?

I'm wondering what did they have that is absent in many preachers today?

What is the essence of the thing that we need that they had that is largely

missing today?

How can Perkins live again in our pulpits today?

Thanks for serving us today in a sharpening fashion.

Hmm.

That's a great question.

The answer to that is multifaceted.

But if you ask me what we should at least start with I would say

Eminent is that you

will think you'll see that with the

Reformers eminent height the basics of what a Christian should be doing

as a Christian and then Heightened in the sense that the minister ought to be

doing those things Eminently if the minister in

a life there is no possible way that he's going to be effectively shake

people's hands and have a great smile and Lots of people might like them.

Sanctifying effect of the spirit through spirit is using

he's using human beings.

He's using these men to bring his word and all

them up to Dislodge them from earthly mindedness

Into heavenly mindedness, so I would say first and foremost when you look at all of these

guys you're looking at eminently pious godly

Zeal for Christ

if you have high level of Fire in your bones in and that zeal

and all of the other things are going to start to fall into place because you're going to be Extremely concerned

about the way that you study turned about the way as a minister

that you Pray in the public meeting you're going to be very concerned about the way

that you structure your sermon The

children and how you visit the sick all of those things are going to over

Closeness in which if he is not close to the throne of grace

How is he going to bring other people close to the throne of grace even if he has?

The right mental ideas of what ought to happen if He's not doing those

things and if he's not engaging in those

they have

to be

among

them in

order

to minister to

that

Idea that

the

old

of God

and

sent by

it in these

other

though I think

they

graduated early and

they were all smart and they were all.

Utilized it if I'd

be able to we have another listener in Greensboro,

North Carolina.

This is Seth from Greensboro, North Carolina.

Excellent topic today, mr. Arnzen.

Would dr. McMahon, please advise us at what point in a new converts life?

Would he recommend him accepting the call into ministry?

How long or how many years it seems to me in a and neglected epidemic.

Neglect a negligent. I'm sorry.

Epidemic among many Baptist churches to allow anyone to step into the ministry of preaching God's Word.

Regardless of how long they've been saved.

Last year I saw a young man make a profession of faith and within two weeks. He was preaching at a church.

Across the state that churches across the state.

This is Seth and Greensboro, North Carolina.

Great question my heart in many ways to see the

inability of the novice.

Trying to fulfill that role then they don't have one of the

non Non -negotiable Qualification that Paul lays out in 1st Timothy

is that he is not a novice.

In Titus it also says that he has to have the ability to silence the gainsayer.

Which means the minister has to know a lot of stuff now, that doesn't mean that

Committed like we

they're young men, but they were not not, you know

fire on you're going to be a marksman.

What makes you not a novice.

Lots of lots of training?

Daily all of the time giving yourself over to it.

So it's not necessarily Chosen

qualifications that ultimately come out of that now the whole two -week thing.

So that's ridiculous.

It's going to take a certain amount of time for someone not to be a novice because there's a lot of things to learn.

Even if you were to say you don't want to be a novice in the Word of God That there's a lot to

learn in that particular way because the minister is the surgeon for the people you walk

into if you said this is a practical example because it relates to everybody you walk into a doctor's office

and you need to have surgery and The doctor says I just started medical school.

I've been in medical school for two weeks.

And so are you okay with me?

Providing some kind of surgery for you.

No.

What would you say you would be like no, why are you even sitting here you.

Why are you eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the in the surgery room here.

Actually, it's like no.

Why would you then put yourself in the same position as as a Christian in a church

with a minister?

Who's unqualified as well?

They're supposed to be taking care of your soul making sure that they're snatching you from the fire.

You're not going to do that with a novice it's not going to have the ability to do that and so in thinking

about that.

No, it's not going to be a short period of time.

There's good.

I mean even Paul.

He spent years having known the law inside out and backwards spent a number of

years before he even went out on his missionary journey and no doubt Acquainting

his mind with the way that you should be thinking about the gospel as a result of what Christ had done for him and

You know.

Consideration of what he understood the law to be and of course have to do that.

And of course and Paul's letter to Timothy.

1st Timothy 5 22 Paul says do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and

thereby share responsibility for the sins of others.

Keep yourself free from sin.

Yeah, and You know, I have been I think

misunderstanding Paul's words to Timothy to Not let anyone despise

him because of his youth.

I was thinking for a long time.

He was saying to Timothy.

Hey, you know, don't let anybody mock you because you're young and you're preaching I think I've been hearing lately from men.

I respect that Paul was actually saying Don't let your youthfulness bring reproach

upon you because you're acting like a child or something.

Is it which which way do you exegete that?

I?

Lean to the youngness of Timothy this speaks exactly to what we're talking about.

The the idea of despises is To think little or nothing up to

disdain him because he's a young man.

Not because Timothy was like a

young Paul with the elder.

He was the younger now the exact age not sure.

However, if you he was taught the script

he was mighty no doubt at the particular point that he had hands laid on him and

he was ordained into the ministry and yet he has to deal with people

who are older and.

So what were they thinking?

Oh, you haven't been you know in the church for a long time.

You haven't been part of us for 25 30 years.

No, I think Paul is saying the exact opposite of that that

Timothy being a younger man should not be despised simply because he is young.

Otherwise if that's the case, then we need to despise Georgia Gillespie and we need to despise Rutherford and

despise Andrew Gray and those those younger men who were used.

Mightily, I would see that in that particular manner.

Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana says would you have support to share that one who

is called to ministry should also have experience sitting faithfully under a

faithful pastor hearing faithful preaching and putting himself under a faithful churches

Authority for an amount of time in addition to college and or seminary.

Schooling is not enough for pastoral ministry, correct?

In other words should this person also have been a member of a faithful church for a reasonable period of time before

they are rushed into a pastoral position.

They should be Christians first which requires all of those things.

Converted again.

This is that short period of time doesn't we get converted and then say well I want to be in the ministry.

Oh, you seem to have a few gifts because we've watched you over the period of the last two months.

Yeah, let's send you to and to the school and get you a seminary degree and you should be good to go.

No, they need to be faithful as a Christian for a period of time.

That's why I think I think it's really a dangerous thing where we can just go to

seminary.

I don't need to check with anybody.

So if I had decided or maybe I've got a couple of friends that they

just decide I want to get up but I want To go to seminary.

I want to get a degree.

They don't need to check with anybody so to speak to go do that.

I remember being in Work study at the seminary that I went

to all of the applicants surveyed

want to come to the school.

Why do you want to come and get a degree?

Not one of them said I want to come to seminary because I want to know the Lord Jesus

Christ better and I want to sit under these people and have a closer relationship with Christ as a result of learning more about

him and Then if God calls me to go be a minister.

Well, we'll deal with that at that particular time.

But this is going to be my first step to draw closer to Christ.

Not one person said that every single one of them said the same thing.

I want to be a minister.

I want to go to school to get my MDiv.

I want to be a minister and so in thinking about that In your in the question that was

asked.

I think it is an.

Indispensable.

Requirement I'm going to say requirement based on inference.

Paul and Timothy relationship.

That you really need to have

by godly pastors who have already been proven faithful.

So that you can learn those things that you are never going to learn in seminary because it's not a chance.

That you're going to learn everything that you need in any seminary position.

You're you may go to a really good seminary in a really good school and there may be really

theological Minds there and there may be even great pastors.

They're guiding each of them yet.

You still need that you need to go into the hospital room with the wife who just lost her

baby.

The husband and the wife are there with the pastor and see how to deal with that.

That was one of the things that Perkins did.

Cases of conscience.

How do we deal with all of these different kinds of people?

Where do we get that practical experience?

We get that from the Paul and the Timothy relationship.

I don't I think that's.

Okay.

Well, I want to thank you so much Dr. McMahon for being on the program and I know that we already have some other

future Interviews lined up with you and I'm looking forward to those interviews.

And I want to make sure that our listeners have your website URLs.

We have Puritan publications calm.

Puritan publications calm and we also have a Puritan's mind calm.

A Puritan's Mind calm obviously no apostrophe in that.

Thank you so much for being on the broadcast.

I look forward to your return and to your a frequent return to this program.

Well, I appreciate it very much.

I want to thank the Reverend buzz Taylor for being in studio.

I want to thank everybody who listened.

Especially those who took the time to write in and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your

lives That Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.