April 19, 2017 Show with C. Matthew McMahon on “The Calling of the Ministry”

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Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 19th day of April 2017 before I go to our interview today or two before I introduce my guest today I have a prayer request For the family of a dear friend of mine a dear friend of mine who went home to be with the Lord last week.

In fact, it was April 12th of this year last week That my friend William Norman Grigg went home to be with the Lord at 54 years of age after a heart attack. William Norman Grigg Will be a name recognizable for those of my listeners who happen to be Christian libertarians, especially who are politically libertarian or constitutionalists.

William Norman Grigg was the former senior editor of the New American magazine and quite a brilliant man quite a genius a former Mormon who converted to Biblical Christianity when he discovered the true Christ and true gospel of the scriptures and I had quite a number of occasions where I was blessed to have William Norman Grigg on this program on the old iron sharpens iron radio that was broadcasting out of New York on WNYG and WGBB radio and Norman leaves behind a wife and six children.

Please pray for them. This is obviously quite devastating since Norman was such a young man. As I said 54 years of age. He went home to be with the Lord, but thankfully obviously He as I mentioned he was a Christian before leaving this planet.

He loved his Lord dearly and put his full trust in the finished work of Christ alone for his redemption and salvation and pray for his Mormon parents. I believe his parents may still be alive and I believe they were alive when I was interviewing him a number of years ago.

And I know that he has other he has siblings. He was an adopted child and so he does still obviously have Mormons in his family pray for their salvation pray that as they. They hear about more and more about William Norman Grigg's testimony of conversion that the Lord uses.

The rehearing of that testimony as it echoes in their ears to Finally draw drive them to their knees and repentance and cry out to the true God and the true Christ of Scripture. I plan on at some point airing some reruns of William Norman Grigg interviews in memory of him and I hopefully will soon have At least a couple of those posted on Facebook and other places so you can hear Those interviews one in particular which he is giving the account of his Salvation and his coming to the true Christ and true gospel of Scripture where he actually breaks down in tears during the interview it's quite a moving interview and So God willing I will be able to share those with you the public very soon.

So keep that family. The immediate family and also the larger family of the Grigg Family in your prayers and especially those Mormon relatives and Perhaps even more especially his wife and six children Who are mourning very?

Severely very deeply after this loss. Well today we have on the program again Someone who's becoming quickly one of my favorite guests on iron sharpens iron radio. Dr. C Matthew McMahon founder of a Puritan's mind.

And we are going to be addressing The calling of the ministry and this is actually also the title of a book by William Perkins who is a 16th century figure from church history and his book the calling of the ministry has been brought back into print by Puritan publications, which is Also an organization founded by my guest see Matthew McMahon.

That's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to orange opens on radio. Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.

Happy to be here Chris. Glad to be here. Great topic great Puritan. Great discussions.

We always have so I look forward to it and in studio with me is my co-host the Reverend buzz Taylor and good morning.

Good morning afternoon. That's right. You're the one that's supposed to mess up the times.

And let me announce right now our email address, it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And before we even go into the subject at hand Dr. McMahon, I'd like to know something about William Perkins who?

Wrote the content of what we will be discussing today.

Well.

Capable treats on number of great contributions wrote a number of Fantastic works almost everything that you read by him. And when I say that I mean that he has a pastorally tender heart in the way that he deals with the subject matter.

Well at the same time being an eminent scholar early age. You keep in mind that his years are a bit earlier than most of the Puritans that one would study generally Puritanism is going to reach from about The mid 1550s all the way 1660s.

Perkins he was born in 1558 he died at 1602. But he was one of what we would these these early Puritans are amazing. They were the ones who are information all that doctrine That was coming to light out of things like Luther's writings and Calvin's Institutes and such and inside of circles that were then connected happens if you are lost is Teaching them take their fingers and follow along these so he wrote all sorts of great expositions on Galatians of men, you know melancholy depression happiness that is all in in The early days they put inside of a three individual books.

We've done the order of the causes of salvation and damnation we've foundation of the Christian religion Gathered in six principles. That's another one we should topping people leave just as you were just talking about leave this planet and Enter heaven in an amiable way and how that should be done.

You can see that Perkins was one of those very much known what it was that he was supposed to be For reading books yet did it so known as Lorraine that way had no. We know of you read in many of his treaty you you want to get to know.

And so you didn't a little bit of a background of Perkins, so you don't really think very highly of this Perkins Writing Cleanest of the gospel of heaven with all of his writings and all in connecting the mind Acting it with the intention of the Holy Spirit and whatever it is that he's teaching.

That's why I said, I mean you just read just it would never have. I would never have seen that reading that on my own and It's amazing all things out of the air they thoughtfully deal with the text and when they do that, that's where they mine out Apple and.

His parents or it at the very least his grandparents Certainly would have been around during the Reformation. What kind of a family life is in regard to religion and faith that he grew up in.

He grew up in a pious house sometimes when you deal with. Having information about the Puritan even some of the really really great. One of the last Conversations and interviews that we did a month ago or so was on Thomas Hodges.

But you know, there's just not a lot of information on Thomas Hodges. You just don't have all that we would like. We we know just a little bit. He grew up in a godly household and we don't really start having.

A.

Lot of information until after his conversion because he he was actually Very devoted to the sin of inverted. And while he was walking through the town He heard a young woman say to her child hold your tongue or I'll give you to drunken Perkins Wow, and and so they used that as as something that was baby heard that and as a result of hearing that Seeing that he was a byword in that way among the people his conscience began to grip him and he became so deeply impressed.

But to conversion so it wasn't long after he became a very strong exponent of Calvinism and Became a fellow at the college that he attended at the age of 24. And then it wasn't until the age of ordained to the ministry began his ministry and preaching.

He actually began preaching in prisons in one room and he wound up be by God to bring salvation to a number of people. Diversity. And then he was chosen. Amen. Let me announce our.

Email address again, Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. If you have a question for dr. C Matthew McMahon about the calling of the ministry or about specifically William Perkins and There is Already a kinship I feel with Brother Perkins because I was delivered from the same addiction myself by the grace of Christ I was I too was an alcoholic who? reached Unfortunately scandalous levels of drunkenness that were known to the public and so on.

So I I am very thankful to God that he has delivered me and I'm also thankful to discover other brethren in Christ both from the present and the past who were delivered from that same sin. We have a Question that I normally wouldn't perhaps go to questions this quickly, but this I think will help set the tone of Our discussion since it is related to this the subject.

Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire says I have often heard the call to ministry distinguished between an internal call having a God-given burden for ministry and an external call Having the necessary character and gifting and having this affirmed by leaders of the church.

Did you speak on the importance of? Aspiring pastors to pay close attention to an external call to ministry. This seems vitally important. Especially since I have seen many Lone Ranger men enter ministry without the affirmation of elders without having their gifts Evaluated and sadly without the proper character, but they proceed to ministry because of their own Subjective feelings that's excellent question actually.

Yes, that's a great question. That is the heart of this work by Perkins and That is what he's he's showing and what he's explaining based on both the Joe passage And the Isaiah 6 passage we can talk about those in a moment.

But as he just asked This is the desire itself is Something that is a noble desire. First Timothy 3 1 if a man decides the office of a bishop he desires a good work. So the desire in and of itself is a good thing now whether or not that person is necessarily first fit for the office and What his inclinations are as to why he wants to go into the ministry.

Those things have to be hashed out. John Newton said no one but God can make a minister of the gospel and that's an important note Perkins is going to agree with him 250 years before Newton was around and It's not repugnant in any way to desire the office.

That means that there's a There's a there's a pious desire there which a man Voluntarily devotes himself to the church, but then he is going to commit the judgment Concerning himself to others and he'll wait for a lawful call.

So there's there's two part and call to the ministry. There's the internal call and there's the external call and when you deal with both Perkins when he talks about.

The.

Ministry begins by Dealing with the text first he deals with and he deals with chapter 33 more in particular verses 23 and 24 and just so let me read that to you 3 and 24 if there is a Messenger for him a mediator one among a thousand to show a man his uprightness.

Then he is gracious to heaven says deliver him from going down to the pit. I have found a ransom. So that's the first also the second text because he deals with first three speaks directly to the one that God places as a mediator between him and the people and then he also talks about the confirmation of Isaiah in Isaiah 6 and let me just read that just so that's out there as well and the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting on a throne high and lifted up and the train of his robe filled the temple.

Above it stood seraphim each one having six wings with two he covered his face with two he covered his feet with two he flew. And one cried to another and said holy Holy holy is the Lord of hosts the whole earth is full of his glory.

The posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out and the house was filled with smoke. So I said woe is me now. This is Isaiah. Woe is me for I am undone because I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell in the midst of a people of Unclean lips for my eyes have seen the king the Lord of hosts and one of the seraphim flew to me.

Having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar and he touched my mouth with it said behold This has touched your lips. Your iniquity is taken away and your sin is purged. Also, I heard the voice of the Lord saying whom shall I send and who will go for us?

Then I said here am I send me and he said go and tell his people keep on hearing. But do not understand keep on seeing. But to Perkins uses both of these two texts to explain What it means to actually be inward and outwardly called He and he begins it by showing that The point of the passage in his mercy God uses means Mediator concerned with the means and the remedies that God uses in Rescuing his people.

Demonstrating how they can be righteous and how they can be delivered from the pit. And so he says that these words in Job contain a valuable Description of a true minister. They describe him in five ways.

By his title. He's a messenger and an interpreter by his rarity or he'll say Scarcity, he is one of a thousand now that in and of itself Eliminate a Number of people who immediately think well, I desire the office so I should be in the office.

There's more to it than the desire I'll give let me give you a pause there on number two and just give you an instance of what I mean. You are and this is actually a true thing. I went to college he loves sport and he knew he knew all the players patterns.

He knew the runs and you every anyone King wet yet. It's hard all the necessary skill while him on the team even though someone desires that particular and so as much as there must be. Harkin says there's a messenger and interpreter number one.

He's ray a blessing that God gives to his labors and number five by his Commission and Authority in the last Words God will say the title of that. He's an interpreter as my friend talking. He said when I was going to college Or right before and one of the elders in the church had a conversation with him and Said they got into reading the Bible and he said yeah I've read the Bible and the elder was like you've read the Bible.

Yes. I've read the Bible the whole Bible from cover to cover. Yes, I've read the whole Bible from cover to cover it never but you should be at the ministry. You should be in the doctor that you you're in In some way to that elder in the midst of the church that he was attending.

He was doing more Religiously speaking or in some pious way who had not done that and so that seemed to be the qualification to send him off to Bible College and Intended and that's what they initially began to do with them reading your Bible from cover to cover is something that Every Christian should be yearly doing.

One of the things that I think People lose in thinking about a minister is that everything that the Christian ought to be doing the minister should be doing.

Already.

Not that the Bible that suddenly makes him fit to be in the ministry because then you have the exact opposite of that of another friend and he has Been in the ministry for so called the time that he went to then he went to Seminary got his MDIV his Masters of Divinity Sent by his church to be able to do that.

I kid you not. This was the conversation not but a month ago that I had with him. And I was like, well, why don't you we were just talking about something. So why don't you preach from? You know the minor prophets.

Well, I haven't read the minor prophets. What. Well I haven't read the minor prophets yet. Let me ask you a question. Have you read your Bible all the way through? No, I have not read my Bible all the way through.

I'm like, okay, let's back the truck up for a second. So you you've gone through.

College.

Christian college who've gone through seminary. You have an MDIV and you've not read the Bible all the way through at one point. I haven't read the minor prophets. I've not read Chronicles or Kings. I haven't read through parts of Hebrews.

I haven't read Revelation. It's like thinking about this inclination we're like pushing people into that particular position without having them be Qualified for the actual office. It says first thing we need to understand is a messenger and an interpreter.

He's a messenger. He's a messenger of the Lord of hope and in Thinking through that just that thought alone should cause every minister to shudder. You're going on behalf of God to the people to be the mouthpiece.

For God to those people you are to be in that particular manner the of their never-dying soul to do that speak not the Word of God, but as the Oracles of God not only the Word of God. But as of God themselves speak God's Word family and what happened last Christmas and and then tie it up a lot of time.

Even in our sermon is to be nice instead the minister ought to be showing their faithfulness to the message. Which God has as Perkins has honored us, too. And it therefore must be purely studied and delivered but all those who are God's messenger to be honored as Ambassadors of God to fulfill the responsibility of God's messengers because if they don't do that They take away the power and majesty of God's Word in the way that they deliver it.

They have to be take the Word of God and expound it. They didn't need to know how to do that. They need to be familiar with the word before they can even expound it. They need to be familiar with it because what if you preach in one particular Area out of the gospel of John, but you don't know that.

For some reason you don't know that Isaiah said something contrary to the particular message that you think should come out of John chapter 12 and you have a contradiction, but you don't know that because you haven't read Isaiah familiar skill.

And we have to go to a break right now. And by the way, Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire, you have won a free copy of the book that we are Addressing the calling of the ministry by William Perkins.

Compliments of Puritan publications and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible book service will be shipping that out to you. So look for a package from CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service.

Calm CV BBS. Calm. And I'm gonna read a question For you and allow you to answer it after the break. Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island wants to know. I know that all Christians in the ministry worth their salt.

Would have a high level of importance on hermeneutics. But did William Perkins also have a high level of importance placed on hermeneutics. The manner in which the Word of God is preached. And you could answer that when we return from the break and.

Anybody else who'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with dr. C. Matthew McMahon. And more of our discussion.

One.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours as dr C Matthew McMahon founder of a Puritan's mind today We are addressing the calling of the ministry.

If you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. And before I repeat the question that was asked by Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island.

It's interesting. Dr. McMahon that my first pastor founder of solid ground Christian books actually He years ago, I would say probably over 20 years ago. Perhaps even 30 years ago. He was on a review board of a man who was seeking ordination into the ministry and he was really Soundly rebuked by the other men on the review panel merely because he was questioning the candidate on the minor prophets and Was disturbed that the the man had little knowledge of them.

So it was kind of it's kind of interesting that you brought up that analogy there. But anyway, that's a pretty sad commentary, I mean obviously he was just doing what was expected. I'm only was interviewing a man that was entering the one of the most important callings that a human being can enter into On this earth and they were lambasting him for being too harsh, but anyway.

Right.

Before we went to the break Ronald in eastern Suffolk County said did Perkins put As high of you as high a view of importance on homiletics as he did on hermeneutics.

The answer to that question is yes and That's why you sermons is an everyday task a tremendous responsibility and by no means. Easy, in fact, it is doubtful if there is a more difficult challenge in the theological disciplines and that of homiletics.

Sermon preparation. Subject matter which is a higher gift indeed whether we think about it dig without getting to sidetracked. Yeah, her homiletics was exceedingly important and At the end of that particular work what he does is he puts he?

He puts a little summation at the end where he shows teaching. Involves this if you want to boil it down to just four points. This is what it is. And this is where homiletics comes into play as the sister of hermeneutics.

Number one the preacher is going to read the text clearly from the canonical scriptures. I can't tell you how many times I've sat in sermons and the preacher has not read the scripture that they're preaching on.

It's odd that they would even think that way explain the meaning of it. Once it has been read in light of the scriptures themselves. Number three Gathering a few profitable points of doctrine from the natural sense of the passage and number four applying the doctrine explained to the life and practice of the congregation and so he combines both patient and of the sermon and All the puritans did this all this is this exact same thing read the text you open it.

It give me the doctrine from these upon the kind of sermon it in it is it might be of auditory Sermon some kind of encouraging sermon it might be a doctrinal sermon. It might be something that comes out of it historical narrative.

But they're still going to do that and that they're going to apply it they all did the same thing. This is not like some reason what people are learning today in seminary are the application sermon as if Compartmentalizing in taking this information and structuring it in such a way as to precisely deliver it.

That was one of the reasons why all of these because they wrote everything out and all of it. Not only do you have to get the passage? We also have to communicate it in a way into men's mind as Richard Baxter.

You could be really good at hermeneutics and be terrible and homiletics and that's not going to help the people. I think I mentioned Samuel Willard. He was a in Boston during his nephew came in one one week and he preached in a day that Samuel Willard could not be at the church and The nephew then on that Monday said to him it didn't go over very well.

I don't think they received it very well, and so Samuel Willard took his sermon and He preached that same sermon word for word and it went over very well. So it's all in in that particular instance. It was all how he was saying it how he was.

Emphasizing it emphasized how he was loud how he was soft all of those things fall under the rubric of Homiletics, and so if you could be a great interpreter, but if you don't wind up. Being able to communicate what it is that you've just interpreted.

You're not going to be a very good messenger entering that briefly in that way yes, perkin being able to preach well and That's what he says in terms of titles out of this Job passage. He has to be a messenger.

He's going on behalf of God to be this. God says people should seek the law from his mouth that is the minister. That's Malachi 2 7. They're doing that then he ate that information. So not only does he have to interpret, but he has to take that word and Be able to deliver it to the people as a messenger.

The homiletics is it is just as important as her minute X and a number of ways and.

Perkins was very hardy on that Ronald an Eastern Suffolk County. Thank you for the question and you are also getting a free copy of The calling of the ministry by William Perkins compliments of Puritan publications and compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Cv bbs .com.

So keep your eye open and in the mail for a package from CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service. Calm. We have RJ and White Plains New York who has a similar question. He says I know fundamentalists who don't think that a sermon is real preaching unless the pastor is Shouting as loud as can be and shaking the rafters and others from the Presbyterian and other reformed backgrounds barely go above the level of a whisper and sometimes preach with all the enthusiasm and passion as if they are a trigonometry.

Teacher is The tone of voice and the volume of voice at all important according to Perkins and according to your guest.

Yes, and yes you we talked about John Brinsley, and he should be preached plainly. Homiletics, you don't shout for the sake of shouting you or speak loudly just because you. Things are tools and the creature's voice is.

Extremely.

Useful in the proper way, which means some things should be made plain and But he shouldn't be monotone At the same time he shouldn't be screaming from the top of his lungs at the same time that's just as as Distracting he wants to be able to communicate most effectively Which means in writing out his sermon in knowing what it is that he's going to say he's going to place.

This is what for me personally This is what I would do or I will put asterisks where I need certain. There are useful tools with the voice and Dabney talks about it Vinay talks about it.

In.

Dealing with your voice in the right way. Talk about how to raise your voice or lower your voice. He's utilizing homiletics in the way of how to rightly communicate these and be able to Send it out in a way that it's understood.

But it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to yell your sermon that that would in many ways be Distracting and you'll lose many people by just shouting your sermon. That doesn't mean that many of the preachers didn't shout or didn't raise their voice.

Had to shout. He was in the field to see that the practical application when you have 10 ,000 people Surrounding you and you need all of them to hear you and you have no microphone and you're in the middle of a field up On a small hill.

You have to shout so everybody could hear you. Spurgeon did the same thing. Yeah, you have to shout. Which field it says in his bio that many times. He came in and he would be spitting up blood because he was.

Sure, but I know that Benjamin Franklin was absolutely astonished by the loudness of his voice.

Yes, he he attended a number of. Why are you here? You don't believe any of that?

Excellent answer. Yeah, excellent answer, but at the same time a rebuke to him. Yes, of course.

So in any case you're you want to use your voice in the right way. You don't want to be so low that no one can hear you. You want to be able to speak boldly and plainly but at the Same time you're not screaming your sermons.

You're going to be wise in the way that you use.

Yeah, if you want to highlight an important fact by raising your voice if everything is yelled. Nothing is gonna be highlighted because everything is gonna be lost in the same volume. But anyway, we have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

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