December 2, 2020 Show with Paul Viggiano on “One Church’s Journey out of Pentecostalism into Reformed Theology”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on

the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday

on this second day of December 2020.

And I'm thrilled to have back on the program for a second time, Pastor Paul

Vigiano of Branch of Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Torrance,

California.

And today, we're going to be expanding on something that we began just

in part during a recent interview we had with Paul and Bill

Shishko during a five -part tribute, a five -day tribute

to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson.

And that was in order to promote the Bonson Project.

And we'll have Paul reintroduce that ministry to our listeners today as well.

But the story of Paul and his not only personal

transformation theologically, but the transformation of the congregation where he pastors, Branch of Hope,

from a Pentecostal church into a theologically reformed church was so

fascinating.

I wanted to have him back to be more in -depth and more in detail about this.

So today, we are addressing one church's journey out of Pentecostalism into Reformed Theology.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Paul Vigiano.

Thanks, Chris.

Let me give our listeners our email address right away, in the event that you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own

for Pastor Paul.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Well, before we go into the discussion at hand, Pastor Paul, why don't you tell us a little about

Branch of Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Torrance, California, today, just to whet the

appetite of those who may either live near Torrance, or may be visiting Torrance,

so that they can come pay you a visit.

Yeah, that'd be great.

Yeah,

Branch

is

kind

of a big

place,

and

we'd

love to

have

anybody

in the area.

Great.

Now, for those of our listeners who missed any of those five days

that we paid tribute for an entire week to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson,

why don't you tell our listeners, in summary, who Dr. Bonson was, and tell us

about the Bonson Project and your role in it.

Yeah, we, uh, a year ago,

uh, got a Ph .D.

in philosophy out of

USC.

So,

many

of us,

there's a lot.

I

mean,

he wrote numerous

links, where

they have

to make a

payment.

You go

online,

you can

go

free.

And

one

of the

things

along...

Well, uh, once again, that website is BonsonProject .com, BonsonProject .com.

If anybody wants to listen later on to the five -day tribute

we paid to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson on Iron Trumpets Iron Radio, which included an interview with

today's guest, Pastor Paul Vigiano, and a number of others.

Uh, just go to IronTrumpetsIronRadio .com, IronTrumpetsIronRadio .com.

Click on Podcasts Past Shows, and there will be a search engine.

If you type in B -A -H -N -S -E -N, that

five -week, or should I say five -day, one -week tribute to Dr. Bonson

will appear, in addition to an interview that I did with his son, David Bonson.

But I hope that you all will enjoy those interviews and get to know Dr. Bonson better,

and begin to make use of the great wealth of resources

that he has gifted to the body of Christ, and how he still speaks today

in writing, and in recording, and video, to bless the body of Christ

with the wisdom that God gave him, even though he has departed from this earth and is

now in eternal glory with Christ.

And again, that's BonsonProject .com, or the website B -A -H -N -S

-E -NProject .com.

Well, let me just say a word of caveat here

before we begin our discussion.

I just want our listeners to know, especially if you happen to be Pentecostal, or Charismatic, or

Continuationists, or Continuous, however you like to describe yourself, I am not

one of these Christians that may be typically found amongst fundamentalists,

but even amongst my fellow Reformed brethren, who

discounts the genuineness of the regeneration,

the Christianity of many, many in the body of Christ who

are Pentecostals, or Charismatics, or Non -Cessationists, or

Continuationists, or Continuous, those that believe that the sign gifts

are still available to the body of Christ today, those that

believe that tongues especially, and perhaps even the gift of healing,

of course Reformed people believe God still heals when it is his will, but

typically Reformed folk do not believe that people today have the gift to heal.

But I just want to say that I do not discount the genuineness of the regeneration,

or the Christianity of our brothers and sisters from those backgrounds.

I just happen to strongly disagree with them on these areas of the sign gifts, and

also other teachings that typically, but not always, especially not always in the 21st century, there are

soteriologically Reformed Pentecostals and Charismatics today, but for the most part,

I mean even for the most part amongst evangelicals in general, the Pentecostal

movement would be dominated by Arminian theology, or

non -Reformed and sometimes even very anti -Reformed theology,

typically full -blown Arminianism that would even teach that a truly born -again person can

lose his or her salvation.

So I do believe these are important issues, and I don't shy away from them, as

anybody who listens to this program knows, I don't shy away from controversial issues or issues that

divide the body of Christ, but I try to do it with charity whenever possible.

And I just wanted to make sure you knew of my motives if you are in a Pentecostal or

Charismatic background, and if you have anything to add to that, Paul, maybe you disagree with some of what I said, but I just wanted

to make sure that my opinion was known here.

Well, I'm glad you said that, because that was going to be kind of my preamble to this.

You

know, I

do think

it's important to

say that even in my...

Of course, we

even have our

Hyper -Calvinists among us.

Absolutely.

And

so I

think,

it wasn't

so much,

for example, years

ago,

community people, you

know, I think of

somebody, you know, pretty soundly...

Yes, and some would even say that Wayne Grudem is far more than just pretty sound.

They would view his works, even those outside of

the non -cessationist world, there are even cessationists who highly

view him and utilize greatly his commentaries and works, and so on.

And as do I.

Yes, and that would be the same for C. Samuel

Storms, who has written a number of things that are very beneficial to the body of Christ,

although I do have my strong differences with him on those views,

where he defends charismatic teaching, uniquely charismatic teaching.

And in fact, I would like to have a debate on this program with Dr. Storms at some point, if

you have any recommendations for a good opponent for him, because his publisher, probably close to

a year ago now, I'm sad that I dropped the ball on that, but they contacted me

asking me...

First, they asked me to have Dr. Storms just on the program alone to promote his book,

which is a promotion of the validity of tongues today, and I told them, since I am

very opposed to that notion and that teaching or that phenomenon,

that I would not have him just come on to promote the book and discuss that in a positive light, but

I would have him debate, and they seemed very intrigued, but due to the busyness of life, I dropped

the ball on that, so I hope to return to that discussion with his publishers and get Dr. Storm on.

That would be valuable.

And by the way, folks, I also want to add to this discussion that I have many friends who are Pentecostal,

charismatic, and those that choose to call themselves continuists or continuationists or

non -cessationists, who have been very valuable brothers and

sisters in my life, who have benefited my life greatly, who have taught me very often

by their godliness and their Christ -like example in their lives.

They have taught me a great deal of things that I find invaluable and

precious things that I cherish and that I have grown from,

and some of them are theologically reformed.

So I just wanted to make sure I said that.

Well, I'm going to have you do a little bit of repetition from our last

discussion, because you did give your testimony in an abbreviated form the last time you

were on, even though that was not the subject, it was Dr. Bonson who was the subject, but we always

have first -time guests whenever possible give a summary of their salvation story and

how they came to the Reformed faith, if indeed they are Reformed.

And if you could repeat that story, just so we get some background on you, and then we'll go

more deeply into the transformation of your entire congregation.

Sure, sure.

In

my study,

for

some

reason, I

think

it

might

have been the flannel

school,

you know, the Moses there.

I went there for a

year

when I

turned

eight.

But still a surprise coming from a PCUSA member.

But for our listeners, that is one of the most liberal denominations

that exists in Protestantism.

It would be perhaps a little bit to the right of the United Church of Christ today.

And there are, though, having said that, still biblically Orthodox,

evangelical, scripturally faithful pastors and congregations within that

denomination.

That is the denomination that actually excommunicated J.

Gresham Machen, who is the founder of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and one of the founders of Westminster

Seminary in Pennsylvania.

But it is interesting to hear that somebody from the PCUSA was presenting the Four Spiritual Laws.

Yeah, and like you say, some of those PCUSA churches

were trying

to

hang in

there

every

Sunday.

Okay, we're going to pick up where you left off there.

We return from our first break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address again is ChrisArnzen

at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Paul Vigiano and more on our discussion on

a church's journey from Pentecostalism into Reformed Theology.

We'll be right back.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the entire program is Paul Vigiano, pastor of Branch

of Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Torrance, California.

We are addressing the theme, One Church's Journey Out of Pentecostalism Into Reform Theology.

If you have a question of your own, you can send it in by email to chrisarnzen at gmail

.com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Give us, as always, your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I could readily believe that a subject like this might

compel some listeners to send in personal questions because they are going through a

journey of their own, and they don't want to draw attention to their identity

at this point in time.

Perhaps you're still a member of a Pentecostal or charismatic church, you don't want to unnecessarily

offend your leaders and your fellow members who you may deeply love.

Perhaps you're even a pastor, and you are starting to reconsider many of the tenets

of Pentecostalism or the charismatic movement.

And I've known quite a number of pastors who fit that description.

Some of them who have made the full exodus out of an official Pentecostal denomination

or just the charismatic movement in general.

And that would include Pastor Paul Vigiano.

So we would understand a personal and private question like that.

But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

So, Paul, we basically came to the point before the break

on how you came to truly believe that you had

been saved by the grace and mercy of Christ.

And if you could pick up the story on how you were called into the ministry and how you actually came to

found Branch of Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Torrance, California.

And then tell us about that journey as well.

Yeah, certainly, Chris.

The Calvary

Chapel came out

of that.

Absolutely.

It really grew from that.

And

at

the

time,

I

was

a member

of the

DCUSA

church.

And the way you want, we just want it.

Basically, what they wanted was I could

run the program at

DCUSA.

Kind of met him,

stations, and kind of there.

And this piece, just not to interrupt you, but the PCUSA congregation that you were in, judging from

your description earlier that they were presenting the four spiritual laws, I'm assuming that even though

they were Presbyterian, they were not reformed.

And I have met some PCUSA pastors who

are evangelical, even though they're in the tiny minority in that denomination.

But some of them, a good number of them are Arminian.

Right.

Yeah.

And that

would

have

been the

generally

speaking

nation that a lot of them went into.

But none of that really.

In fact, a hero of mine, Dr. John Gerstner, remained in the PCUSA for

many years until he finally had to make the break over what he felt was just total

apostasy regarding the gospel.

But it was interesting how long he held on in that denomination.

You

know, I think

Gerstner

was 1990,

while I

had gone to

seminary.

Yeah, he was reasonably sound.

Yeah, yeah.

But very much in that camp.

He authored the hymn, Majesty.

What's that?

He's the author of the hymn, Majesty.

Worship His Majesty.

That's right.

Yeah, that's right.

He's got to preach.

The time I

had got

there, I

didn't know

that going

in.

And I didn't realize what kind of...

the evolution.

So I take the position...

And that is a richly Calvinistic book.

Yes, it is.

Especially in chapters five and six.

And

go

to

them first.

In fact, you know what I want to do?

I want to go to a break right now before I cut into a more crucial part of the discussion, because we have to go to

our midway break.

And I don't want to unnecessarily interrupt you right in a very heated moment.

Okay.

So just remember, you were talking about using the commentary and we'll pick up right there.

And folks, this is the longer break in Iron Sherp and Zion Radio in the middle of the show,

because Grace Life Radio, who airs this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format, both in morning

drive and in the evening, they are required by the FCC to air their own

public service announcements and other local things in order to localize this show to Lake City,

Florida.

And while they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

So please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the information as possible for as many of our advertisers as possible, so that you can more

frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers, even if that just means reaching out to them to

thank them for sponsoring the show.

That will hopefully result in our advertisers wanting to remain our advertisers and renew their advertising

contracts, because we absolutely depend on the advertising dollars that come in from our

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

We'll be right back after these messages, so please don't go away.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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I just have a couple of announcements before we return to our guest, Pastor Paul Vigiano in our

discussion on one church's journey out from Pentecostalism into

Reformed Theology.

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Also, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, a biblically sound church, no matter where in the world you

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And right before the break, you were discussing preaching on the Gospel of John and you were discussing

commentaries and you could pick up right where you left off, brother.

Okay, Chris.

Yeah,

I had

preached

through

gender's

value to

it.

And are their conclusions similar to my conclusion?

Or is my conclusion completely isolated?

I'm the only

guy who's discussed

shows about how we've moved.

If you recall correctly,

Lindsay

and

and

even

though

I did

not

see

if his

conclusion had dawned on

me, I don't see it.

See, the value of a commentator.

Now you see it.

It's like when somebody tells you a riddle.

I remember I was talking to.

A nickel every time somebody said it to me.

And I said, well, that may be true.

And maybe I am a blockhead, but I'm constrained.

This wasn't even because I hadn't seen the position clearly.

And this was again about that at about

that time.

And

where

do

we belong?

Well, I don't even know the lyrics to that.

You know, our Father I've sinned whole thing.

And what

about what do you mean by that?

That had, by the way, a copy of the

Westminster Confession.

And he looked at me and he says, I've never been manager of it.

I've been hiding this

from

him.

We

read

that,

praise

of God.

And yeah,

Ken's a

brilliant

guy

through

that.

Well, praise God for that.

And we do have some listener questions for you.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I am in a

Pentecostal church.

It is not one of the more crazy ones or a fringe group.

Seems to be very solid.

And the worship services are reasonably orderly.

But I am feeling more and more uncomfortable remaining there because of the fact that

the teaching is basically in opposition to the Reformed faith.

I was wondering what your opinion is, judging from what the scriptures teach you, on

when it is time to definitely leave a church, whether it be Pentecostal or not.

But please be more specific about when it is time to definitely leave a Pentecostal or

charismatic church.

Yeah, that's a great, because whenever

people,

I'm not

sure if we're going

to move in

that direction,

teaching

all the

days

when we begin

to think.

Well, thank you, Anonymous.

And we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who

wants to know, what do you think are the primary dangerous teachings and practices

of Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement in general?

Yeah, that's also really, you don't want to...

Oh, you don't have to worry about exposing heretics like that on my show.

Okay, all right.

It's your show, and I just wanted to be careful.

But those guys are so...

They're in the realm of being satanic, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah,

I mean,

it's

just

these

ministries,

to

say

that

which

was...

Yes, and we have Orny in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says that he personally

believes that the belief in new revelation that is divinely

inspired and God -breathed is the worst of the heresies that can come out of the Pentecostal and

charismatic movements.

Do you agree?

So he's sort of dovetailing on that.

Yeah,

talking

about you

decide a

whole

mess.

Now, I don't know if you've experienced this, but I have met people who are

in actual historic Pentecostal denominations, as well as those who are in the

charismatic movement.

And if you could, for a little segue here, would you say I am correct in

differentiating Pentecostalism from the charismatic movement in that Pentecostalism typically

involves actual denominations that have some history behind

them, and the charismatic movement is a phenomenon

where other denominations that historically were not

believers in the perpetuity of the sign gifts started

to adopt those gifts, like you had Baptists like Pat Robertson.

A lot of people don't realize he was a Southern Baptist, or is perhaps even still today a Southern Baptist.

And you had, I can't remember his name right, Oral Roberts was actually

a United Methodist.

And you have others from all different denominations.

You have the Sovereign Grace Ministries movement who are Reformed, Reformed and Baptistic, if I'm not

mistaken, who are charismatic.

So you have other denominations, and you have also independent churches

that have adopted some of the teachings of the Pentecostal denominations, but perhaps not all.

And the other thing that they usually divide over is not all charismatic churches believe that

the gift of tongues is the sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Am I correct in the way I've described that?

I think it's pretty accurate.

Here's the deal

with me, but

yeah, you do

have certain...

I don't

really

see

charismatic

on the

verb and

monolithic

position.

The actual thing I was going to ask you before I went on that segue was I have experienced

Pentecostals and charismatics who have told me that they do not believe

in new extra -biblical revelation, and that they would say

that tongues is only a prayer language that's

angelic, and is not anything that is new, that is

not included already in the canon of Scripture, and that any kind of prophetic

word that anyone would get is something only in the Scriptures.

They are Scriptures that are brought to memory by the Holy Spirit.

They're not receiving new teaching or new

words.

And I don't know how common that is, but I have met people from both traditional

Pentecostal denominations like the Assembly of God and others, and charismatic churches or non

-cessationist churches who have taken that opinion.

Have you ever experienced that, and how prevalent is it in your opinion or according to your knowledge?

Well, yeah,

there are variations of

that

because it

begins, and I

say, well,

God

told

you it's

almost

like

you've

got

another

problem

there.

Here is

my general

thesis

on that, is that

we have

Christopher.

From Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, I haven't heard you

get around to the point of whether or not you completely shed your views of the sign gifts that

you held previously as a Pentecostal, and I was also wondering if

indeed when you spoke in tongues as a Pentecostal, you now believe that

you were just faking it or trying to please everyone around you, or if it was something

satanic.

Yeah, that's a good question.

Ken Gentry, I ask him a lot.

Well,

let

me

speak

in

tongues.

And it had nothing to do with their prior belief that these tongues were real

or were expected.

Absolutely, yeah, it was almost.

In fact, if

you could pick up on that list,.

Because I don't want to interrupt you while you're giving that list, we have to go to our final break right now.

This is going to be a lot more brief than the last breaks.

If you have any questions, send them in now to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, don't go away.

We'll be right back.

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I'm Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to

clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of

our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes,

or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will

join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org, that's gracechurchatfranklin

.org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ, today and

always.

Was your business shut down during the COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any

money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good.

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your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor,

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And Paul Vigiano, you were in a list that Ken Gentry had shared with you

involving this phenomenon of tongue speaking, if you could.

Our church, ministry,

just

pound

the

key.

It feels kind of good to hit the key.

But you're saying things and you're...

I don't immediately assume

synagogue

of

Satan

category

that...

Yeah.

In fact, I remember even seeing many years ago an interview

with a rock singer who...

He must have been very, very, very briefly filling in for Ozzy Osbourne after

Ozzy Osbourne left Black Sabbath because he claimed to be a lead singer of Black Sabbath.

And I don't remember being a very huge Black Sabbath fan when I was a teenager.

And even in my early 20s, I don't remember this person whose name escapes me.

But he was the...

He portrayed the role of Jesus Christ in a Broadway or at least a

theatrical performance of Jesus Christ Superstar.

And he on the 700 Club, even though he was a charismatic and even though obviously

the 700 Club is hosted by charismatics, he said that when

he was hanging on the cross in that play that he began speaking

in demonic tongues, this is something that he alleges happened before he was born

again.

And in fact, the fear or the terror of that is what led him according to his story

to Christ.

Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know.

But...

Yeah, you know,

it's hard to...

Well, I want you to basically summarize in about two minutes what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today on this

subject.

And we would be thrilled to have you come back on at some point in the future to continue this subject if you like.

But if you could please give us a summary of what you most want our audience to remember today.

I think, Chris, if I could convey some...

And he had

come moving

in that

direction

where

on

Sunday

morning...

And then you need to

be a noble...

My dad was a boxer.

Praise God.

Well, I want to remind our listeners about the Branch of Hope

in Torrance, California and their website.

It's branchofhope .org, branchofhope .org.

And once again, the Bonson Project that our guest has been a part of

launching and maintaining.

That website is bonsonproject .com, B -A -H -N -S -E -N

project .com.

Thank you so much, Pastor Paul Vigiano.

I was thrilled with our discussion today.

You had exactly the spirit and knowledge I was hoping for.

And I look forward to you coming back on this program many times.

And in fact, even continuing our discussion on this topic if you'd like.

That's my pleasure.

My pleasure, Chris.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are

a sinner.