March 12, 2018 Show with Anthony Uvenio, Bruce Bennett, and Matthew Luke Broderick on “Theological Debates: Hate Speech or Love Speech?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 12th day of March 2018.

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And we have a topic today that is obviously near and dear to my heart because anyone who knows anything about Chris Arntzen and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio knows that back in 1996,

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I began orchestrating annually live theological debates on Long Island, New York, between Dr.

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James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and a host of Roman Catholic apologists who were his opponents in these debates on a whole host of issues ranging from the

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Marian dogmas to the papacy to the priesthood to purgatory to the apocrypha and many other issues that separate

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Roman Catholics from evangelical Protestants and our

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Reformation forefathers. But today we are going to be discussing the theme theological debates hate speech or love speech.

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All these years that I have conducted these live theological debates, I have repeatedly heard that what

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I was doing was a horrible thing, that this is hate speech and so on, which always puzzled me because we had members of both evangelical

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Protestantism and Roman Catholicism participating in the events, so I'm not sure how they could view it as a hate speech event.

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But we're going to be getting more involved into the details of this and to see what our guests have to say. Obviously we are assuming that since all three of my guests are involved in an upcoming debate, they don't view debates intrinsically or in general as hate speech, but first let me welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a returning guest,

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Anthony Eugenio, who is co -founder of New York Apologetics. It's great to have you back on the program,

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Anthony Eugenio. Thanks Chris, I really appreciate it, look forward to diving into the topic and learning some new stuff as well.

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Yes, and if anybody wants to look up the organization where Anthony Eugenio presides as a director, go to NewYorkApologetics .com

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and those words are spelled out NewYorkApologetics .com. We also have joining us

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Pastor Bruce Bennett, who is the pastor at Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

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It's great to have you back on the program, Pastor Bruce. Hey Chris, always a pleasure to be with you, thanks for having me.

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And why don't you just quickly tell our listeners a summary of Word of Truth Church.

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Word of Truth Church started in 2009 as a church plant from Grace Gospel Church, which was a

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Reformed church that belonged to the Evie Free denomination, and we got the blessing to do a church plant in that year.

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I didn't agree with the pre -millennial position of Evangelical Free, so we became a non -denominational

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Reformed church that is continuationist in our pneumatology in a very biblical, conservative way, but we're not strict cessationists, which you'd normally find in Reformed churches.

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We also have a more contemporary hymnody during our worship time, so that would be kind of our distinctives, but a classically

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Evangelical church serving the folks in Mid -Suffolk County, Long Island.

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So Pastor Bruce is a Calvinist pastor who is a continuationist and believes that contemporary music is appropriate in the worship service, and he's also the only

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Calvinist pastor I know of that excommunicated himself. Just kidding, brother.

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And now we have finally to join us for the very first time ever on Iron Shepherd's Iron, Matthew Broderick.

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I'm so excited to have somebody of your worldwide fame on the program, and I must say that although I loved your performance in The Producers, I did prefer

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Gene Wilder's performance. That's fine.

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It's convenient for me because it's, you know, Buehler's day off, so it's my day not doing anything for the day.

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I know, but thank you so much, you know, for having me. I think I have a little flack over there. It is my real name,

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Matthew Broderick, and I do get flack over that, so instead of changing it, I now go by Matthew Jessica Parker. Well, Matthew Luke Broderick is a lay

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Catholic apologist, and he is going to be debating one of the other guests that I just announced,

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Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and why don't you tell us,

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Matthew, what the theme of this debate is? It's basically the debate is

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Scripture alone is the final authority for a Christian, or Scripture plus tradition plus magisterium, similar to what the

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Jewish people had at the time of Christ. Was there a threefold, or is it just the written Scripture?

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So, you know, Bruce was kind enough to allow me to be the opportunity to, I guess, in coming up a few weeks, we're going to have that opportunity to have

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Scripture, whether it's the final authority, the only authority, or is it combined with tradition and a teaching magisterium to interpret properly what the

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Scripture intent was. And that will be Saturday, April 14th, 630 p .m.

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Eastern Time at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and if anybody wants more details, including directions, you can go to wotchurch .com,

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w -o -t, which stands for Word of Truth Church dot com. And tell us briefly,

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Matthew, how you got the bug to be involved in Catholic apologetics.

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Were you raised Roman Catholic to begin with? I usually ask my first -time guests about their spiritual journeys, and by the way,

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I think that everybody on this program may have been raised Roman Catholic. I was. Were you, Bruce? Yes.

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And how about you, Anthony? Yes, yes, Chris. Yes, with a name like Euvenio, I would be shocked if it was anything else.

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And so, Matthew, were you raised a Roman Catholic? Yes, I was raised Roman Catholic.

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I'm the youngest, as I mentioned before, I'm the youngest of eight children. I'm very blessed to have two...

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Well, that's proof right there that you were raised Roman Catholic. I was the youngest of eight children, and I was always just drawn to Catholicism, to Christ and His Church, and the gift of His most precious blood being the most powerful weapon we can have as Christians, and just always drawn to Christ and His Church.

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And I was just always drawn to Church history, you know, from the time that Christ, Jesus Christ our

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God, died and rose, and when He sent out His Apostles, and what happened from there.

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Like, you know, it's amazing how 12 men, He chose 12 men, and here we have Jesus saying to go out and preach to the whole nation.

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It's amazing that, you know, 12 men and how it came to be, the Word of Christ preached everywhere. So I was just fascinated with that.

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And from what I recall from our conversation beforehand, you've been in some level involved in Catholic apologetics for 15 years?

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Yes, yes. I've always loved studying, you know, the Saints, reading about the lives of the

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Saints, and in particular there was this one book, as I was mentioning earlier, it's called The Way of the

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Pilgrim, and I wanted to get it for a few members of my family. It was about this wandering monk who just wanted to kind of understand

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Paul's, I think it was letter to the Thessalonians, I believe it was, about the need to pray without ceasing, pray without ceasing.

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So he was going from wandering and wandering around to be able to understand how exactly that was to take place, how to want to go about doing that, what

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Paul meant by that. It was just a very interesting book. But when I was just reading down a little bit for the book review, I just happened to notice there was an

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Amazon discussion forum, and one of the forums was Mary had other children, biological children other than Jesus, and it just put in the

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Catholic understanding, the teaching of that, and the next day I got about 500 emails, you know, in response to that.

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So I just was hooked from that time on, I guess, for the last, just under 15 years, I believe it is,

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I've been just really heavily involved in trying to understand Scripture and what the Church Fathers taught and what the

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Scriptures meant, and things like that. And I understand that you are the one that actually contacted

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Pastor Bruce to participate in the debate. Yes, I really enjoy watching debates, hearing both sides, trying to pray, to be open to listen to both sides.

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And I was really inspired by Bruce and Christian and their love for Christ, their love for Holy Scripture, and I just wanted to be able to present more.

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I mean, I think Christian did a great job, I thought Bruce did a great job. I just wanted to be able to present the

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Catholic understanding of, you know, so many things, whether it be the

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Blessed Virgin, accountability, salvation, justification, things like that.

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Bruce was kind enough to allow me that opportunity. Well, before I forget, I do want to let our listeners know that this

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Wednesday my guest is going to be Dr. Tony Costa, who is

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Professor of Apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary. He also is a former Roman Catholic.

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When I say also, I mean just like me and Anthony Uvinio and Bruce Bennett, not

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Matthew Luke Broderick, who is still a Roman Catholic. But Tony Costa is going to be reviewing a debate that I had on British radio, the

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Unbelievable program hosted by Justin Brierley there in the UK, back right before Reformation Day, I believe it was, of 2017.

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I was invited to participate in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who was formerly

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Protestant, and I being a former Catholic who converted to Biblical Reformational Protestantism, they wanted us both on to give our stories.

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I had no idea that I was going to be debating Mr. Bogle when it turned into a debate, which was interesting because that was my very first debate that I actually participated in as a debater, and of course it wasn't quite as structured as a public moderated debate would be with the specific timing and so on for each segment.

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This was more of a free -formed debate and a discussion on the radio. But anyway, we're going to be playing that debate slash discussion that I had with James Bogle, who is a

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Roman Catholic attorney, or as they call them, barristers, there in the UK, and he's also the head of a

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Roman Catholic apostolate there in the UK, and I thought it was quite an interesting discussion slash debate, and I hope that you enjoyed as well, and we're going to have

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Tony Costa review that event this Wednesday, God willing, so 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern time, so please mark that on your calendar. But I'm going to give our listeners our email address if they would like to join us on the air with a question of their own.

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Before I go to Anthony and Bruce, I'm going to go directly to Matthew Luke Broderick today with a question about debates in and of themselves.

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Obviously, Matthew, since you contacted Pastor Bruce Bennett to debate him, you actually initiated the challenge or the invitation to debate.

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You obviously don't believe that debates are inherently or innately something that is hateful, and I have heard over the last couple of decades, starting in 1996 when

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I had my first debate that I organized, I heard both from Protestants and Roman Catholics that what

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I was doing was a mean -spirited thing, a hateful thing, a bigoted thing. I actually had the owner of a

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Christian bookstore, when I dropped posters off for him to hang up for my very first debate that I organized on the dogmas of Mary between James White and Jerry Manateeks, the owner of the bookstore said, how dare you?

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And I said, excuse me? And he said, in a day and age when we should be linking arms with our

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Catholic brothers and sisters, when the morality is so dark and evil in our society, when abortion and homosexuality are rampant, we need to link arms with those that have a lot in common with us, and therefore what you are doing is horrible.

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And I reminded him, first of all, we do have representatives of both sides of the issue at this debate, it is a debate.

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And I said, secondly, since when is correcting someone that you believe is an error a hateful act?

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We do that all the time with a multitude of other issues, why would theology, which is really the most important issue of all because eternity hinges on it, why would that be any different?

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Why would not correcting someone, as long as you are doing it in a loving manner, in a compassionate manner, and in a humble manner, why would that be hate speech?

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How would you typically respond, if you have ever even been told that, I don't know, but how would you respond to the same kind of challenge that I received or rebuke or chastisement

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I received from that Christian bookstore owner, Matthew? I guess I would just, in a way, with you, realize that debating doesn't have to be a negative source.

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As a matter of fact, in the early Christians, in the early church, they were debating in Acts 15, it said, after much debate. So the debate is, especially if you're aspiring to find out and seek the truth, seek the truth.

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But the beautiful thing is, too, Jesus Christ, God the Eternal Son, prays for unity among his followers, and hopefully that we could have that or aspire for that, but it's important, like you said, to be able to seek the truth.

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Hopefully not, like Peter said, to do so to be able to prepare a defense for what you believe, but do so with gentleness and reverence, but not to the point where, you know, there's any negative or judgment on the person, because God alone sees the heart.

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But like you said, to be able to, if you find something, the Holy Spirit places in your heart the need to address or correct, debating has happened in the early church, it happened in the

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Old Testament, and I think it's going to continue to happen. So I think as long as it's done in a negative way, I think it's best.

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Well, I guess I would have to have you clarify what you mean by, unless it's not done in a negative way, because obviously there are going to be crucial areas disagreed upon.

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Let me even back up further and let you know a little bit more about myself. I'm not a modern -day ecumenist.

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I believe, because the Council of Trent clearly dogmatically declared that my gospel is a false and damning gospel,

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I would have to conclude as a Protestant that the Roman Catholic gospel is a different one, and therefore

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I do not have an ecumenical attitude towards my Catholic friends.

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I love my Catholic friends. Many members of my family are still Roman Catholic.

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In fact, the born -again Bible -believing Protestants would be a minority since I was raised

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Catholic. But I don't think that that attitude is a matter of hate.

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I am just basing my views upon what is the documentable truth in regard to the gospel, and since the

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Church of Rome has dogmatically defined its gospel as including works that involve merit,

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I obviously cannot embrace someone who is dogmatically faithful as a Catholic as my brother.

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Now, I do say that there are many Catholics who are my brothers because they believe in the true gospel, but that would be in spite of what

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Rome teaches. I have met many Catholics who are completely unaware of the fact that the

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Church of Rome does not believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

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They think that's what their own... That's true. I mean, it is true, because to me, from the scriptures that I've read, that we believe that it was through the blood of Jesus Christ alone.

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Acts 4 .12, in the Lord's name, can one be saved through the blood of Jesus Christ alone. But in terms of faith alone, that term is not used in Romans, that faith alone.

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If we look to see what Jesus Christ is, no one survived except by every single word that comes from the mouth of God.

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So we hear of Jesus, who is God, and says that we must, must, and the term must is used, produce good fruit.

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We must bear good fruit. Right. Right now, you're giving Catholic arguments that would involve a debate today, right now on the show.

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I erratically oppose what you're saying right now. I believe that the New Testament is replete with clear evidence that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

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But as far as me believing that you are not my brother in Christ, is that something that you would believe is a hateful thing?

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Is it something that you believe is bigotry, or what have you? No, it's fine.

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It's fine. I guess what I meant to say in terms of negative, like I said, I also have scripture passages that refute the faith alone.

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That's the reason why we have debates, yeah. Yeah, no, like I said, you said, so there's plenty of also non -faith alone.

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But I guess what I meant to say by negative was, because of, sadly, the passing of Billy Graham, we pray for someone, but there are people out there who are already judging and passing judgment, saying that this is where he's not in heaven, that he's eternally...

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So they're passing judgment, as opposed to waiting for God to see the heart. Right, yeah.

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In terms of negative, for someone to say, okay, this particular person is directly in hell, because he taught something different than the scriptures, which

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I didn't think Billy Graham did teach something different than the scriptures, from when he doesn't need to repent, as John the

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Baptist did, as Jesus did, to believe the good news, to keep the commandments, to obey, but also to hope in the kindness and mercy of God.

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All these things that the scripture teaches as well. But to be able to do, for someone to, that's what I meant negatively, to judge himself.

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Yeah, I just recently had a radio program, after the death of Billy Graham, where we were going, my guest and I, Brad Zell, who wrote a book about Billy Graham.

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Billy Graham was actually raised in the Bible Presbyterian Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, where my guest is a member, my guest

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Brad Zell. And he and I were just discussing some of the very serious errors in Mr.

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Graham's teachings involving ecumenism, especially, which even led to his declaration that many will be in heaven who never actually knew

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Jesus Christ or his gospel before leaving this planet. And basically they, in Dr.

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Graham's opinion, at least when he was alive on earth, of course, was that a

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Muslim who is seeking to the best of his ability, and believing to the best of his ability, and acting upon those beliefs to the best of his ability, was really a

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Christian, and he just didn't realize it. And you can mention any other religion for that matter, Buddhists, Hindus, and even atheists were implied by Dr.

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Graham. But I never, and neither did Brad Zell, ever declare that Billy Graham was not in heaven.

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I am assuming he is in heaven, even though I had those serious disagreements with him, because I know that he, well at least

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I can see from things that he has preached since the 1950s, that he did believe the gospel.

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I just think that he dangerously mishandled how we are to proclaim that gospel to the lost.

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So I do not make any judgment as to whether he is in heaven or hell, and I assume he is in heaven.

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But anyway, now if you could, Anthony Uvino, you're going to be moderating this debate coming up.

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Why don't you let our audience know what you think about this, and what you think about what I said, as far as, is it hate, or is it bigotry, or is it mean -spiritedness to be acting under the assumption that a

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Roman Catholic is not my brother in Christ? Because let me add to that, if anybody were to say yes, that is mean -spirited, hateful, and bigoted, well there's got to be some group that Roman Catholics or others believe are not going to heaven, and if they're not going to heaven, does that mean that you are guilty of bigotry or hate speech in believing that they are not going to heaven, and telling those persons that they must repent of whatever that religion is?

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But if you could just respond to what I said before, Anthony. Sure.

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Well, what I think we need to understand right off the bat is that both sides have a position, and both sides believe that the other side is wrong.

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Now, since we're talking about God, and since we're talking about salvation, which is for all eternity, this becomes a very, very important matter.

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Is the Gospel faith alone? Is the Gospel faith plus works, plus the sacraments, and whatever else the

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Roman Catholic position would be? This becomes a dividing line.

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Now, what I'm expecting at the debate is a passionate plea from both men, and if they believe these things are true, and if they believe that salvation is contingent upon what they're going to teach, then

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I would expect there to be passion. I would expect there to be an emphasis on these things. Now, I'm also going to expect, and hold both of them to, a demeanor of gentleness, and a demeanor of respect, because even though I wouldn't consider...

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Oh, you could count me out then, Anthony. I'm not even paying attention. I'm only kidding. Sorry, pal.

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What I would say, even though we differ theologically, and there's a great divide over that, he's my brother in that he's a human being created in the image of God, as are you,

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Chris, as are you, Bruce, as is every other human being on the planet. And because we're created in the image of God, we have inherent worth and value.

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We cannot, we cannot look down our nose at someone else who does not hold our position and say, shame on you.

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However, because again, if we're saved by grace and God reveals these things to us, we should be the most gracious people on the planet.

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So, I definitely think that this is a situation and a topic that is well worth debating, because the outcome of this could mean someone's soul.

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Now, I just thought I'd once again bring up something that struck me as perhaps something

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I disagreed with, but perhaps I'm wrong. When you said we should never say shame on you, well, I think that there is a, that is a case -by -case situation.

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If someone from within the ranks of my church, for instance, started declaring some damnable, heretical, bizarre teaching,

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I think that I have every right and duty to say shame on you. I think there's a difference between that and somebody who is raised in and coming from a different background, where a more tolerant attitude might be held.

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But if somebody apostatizes from the truth, especially if they are someone in your midst,

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I think that selling them shame on you could be a great act of love and an act where rescue is being attempted, just as if a parent is saying to a child, shame on you for sticking your finger in an electrical outlet or something like that.

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Yeah, I would agree. I mean, listen, we have an obligation to judge. We judge those inside the church, right?

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It's the people outside the church that we're trying to win to Christ. So my question may be for you, Chris, is would you consider

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Matthew someone who's inside the church or outside the church? If he's inside the church... Go ahead,

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I'm sorry. I was just going to say, from what he has said, I do not believe...

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Okay, if he's outside of the church, well, then we can't judge him, right? We want to win him to Christ.

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If he's inside the church and professing faith in Christ alone for his salvation and comes off with an aberrant doctrine or a thought, then yes.

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And after he's been corrected and still holds to this position, then yes, we can say, hey, shame on you.

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You know the truth. You know better. So I think, you know, we can go back and forth with that.

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What I'm looking to do, especially with these two men, because I know Bruce, I don't know Matthew, but in my very brief conversation with him, he seems like a perfect gentleman.

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I'm expecting to see passion. I'm expecting to see disagreement, obviously. That's why we're having a debate. So I'm going to hold both their feet to the fire in keeping them both gentle and respectful towards one another, because I'm a good moderator.

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How's that? And a humble one. Yeah, I'm proud to be humble,

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Chris. I can actually say without fear of being guilty of exaggeration or flattery that Anthony Eugenio is the best moderator

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I have ever witnessed participating in a debate. Okay. In fact, he participated in...

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And I congratulate you and commend you on the manner with which you moderated the debate that I orchestrated between Dr.

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Tony Costa and Robert St. Genes on the immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary.

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So you did a great job. But Pastor Bruce Bennett, you are the evangelical Protestant involved in this debate.

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If you could respond to the same line of reasoning that I introduced into the discussion just a few minutes ago.

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Yes, Chris. God calls us to stand on truth, and truth is singular.

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Truth is only found ultimately in the Word of God, and the Word of God takes a definite position on the question of authority.

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So where the Bible speaks clearly and loudly as believers in Christ, as His followers, we too need to speak clearly and loudly in love, of course.

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And this debate will be done in love with gentleness and respect, but we're going to present the scriptural truth that proves what

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Christians have held to over the last several thousand years, and that is that the scriptures alone are the final authority.

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So whether it be Acts 15, whether it be Paul reasoning with folks like in Acts 17 on Mars Hill and so on, the whole idea to reason, the whole idea to get people to think about a truth claim.

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And again, like Anthony said, and you had mentioned before, Chris, there is a divergent truth claim being proposed from our

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Roman Catholic neighbors on this question. Then either they're right or we're wrong, or vice versa.

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So this way both sides get to speak their point of view in the debate forum, which makes it a very efficient, a very well -designed opportunity for people who don't know the two different positions to get to see both sides clearly presented in the most efficient, quick manner that can be done with, like Anthony said, passion.

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You want the person not just to give an academic presentation, but someone who really believes it. So I think

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Matthew really believes his position. I know I really believe my position, and whoever comes to debate is going to learn that these divergent views stand opposed to each other, and only one of us is right.

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And hopefully with the proposition defended properly on my side,

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I will be able to prove that. And hopefully the people who listen will get to see that the evidence presented for either side is similar to a trial.

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I mean, we have trials every day in our courts, civil courts, criminal courts, etc. Even the U .S. Supreme Court allows both sides to present their case, because they both have divergent truth claims.

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So at the end of the day, it's the most efficient, it's the most rapid in terms of getting an answer, a way of approaching a significant matter.

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So I think debates are really valuable, and I'm in debt to James R.

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White in terms of inspiring me to debate, because I went to his debate starting in the early 90s over there.

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I remember when I met you, and I believe you were still a member of the

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Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee, weren't you? Yes, I was, yes. I was one of the youth ministers at the time in my

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Church of God, yes. And so honestly, you know, I was familiar with debates a little bit, but getting to see it up front and personal, especially with a man of that skill, that, you know,

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I'm talking about James R. White's tremendous gift for debate and, you know, his oratory skills and his knowledge, it really, really drove me to go deeper in theology and in apologetics, and especially in Catholic apologetics.

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You know, being a former Roman Catholic, I knew the Church had major problems, major issues with it from just an experiential way, but I didn't really know theology when

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I was there, but it really drove me deeper and gave me the incentive to start debating eventually, which this will be my 19th formally moderated debate, public debate.

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Wow, I had no idea it was that many. Well, they're not on YouTube, but Anthony's done quite a few of them, but a lot of those were done and I'm bi -vocational.

34:42

My other job is I'm a high school social studies teacher just outside of New York City, and I used to do the mock trial club for over a decade, and part of that was to have a student's debate, so I used to debate students as well, and we'd have moderated debates within my school, so I'm including those as well.

35:00

Yeah, I had many debates with Muslims, but those were from the backseat of a cab in New York City as to the fastest way to get to the point where I was trying to travel.

35:10

But anyway, we are going... Yours wasn't, mine was open to any student, and one of the debates on atheism actually filled the whole classroom up, so it was a quite interesting debate.

35:22

That's going back not good, probably 18 years or so. All right, we're going to our first break.

35:28

If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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We are back now with our discussion with Anthony Uvino, co -founder of New York Apologetics, Bruce Bennett, the pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and Matthew Luke Broderick, a lay

42:06

Catholic apologist. They're all going to be involved in a debate on Saturday, April 14th at 6 30 p .m.

42:14

at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. And you can get more details about this debate by going to the

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Word of Truth Church website, WOTChurch .com. WOT, which stands for Word of Truth Church, dot com.

42:32

WOTChurch .com. And Anthony Uvino will be the moderator, and Bruce Bennett will be representing the

42:41

Protestant evangelical or evangelical Protestant side of the debate, and Matthew Luke Broderick will be the the

42:49

Catholic apologist involved in the debate. And the debate is on, really, sola scriptura, the

42:56

Reformation principle, that the final and only inerrant and infallible rule of faith for the

43:07

Church is the Holy Scriptures, or are the Holy Scriptures, or is the

43:12

Bible. And obviously the Roman Catholic Church disagrees with that.

43:20

In fact, of all the solas of the Reformation in Matthew, perhaps you could confirm or clarify or disagree with me on this, but of all the solas of the

43:32

Reformation, is it really sola fide and sola scriptura that the Roman Catholic Church more clearly and vociferously disagrees with?

43:42

Yes, exactly. And similar to the Reformation, was what they disagreed with also, that it was not exactly this.

43:51

The Church, from the beginning, we believe, similar to what the Jewish people in the town of Christ had, was a threefold way.

44:00

The Magisterium, the Church, where Jesus Christ refers to in Matthew 23, adhere to and hold fast to what is taught to you from the

44:10

Holy Scripture. The oral tradition from the prophet Elijah, who didn't have a book written, but his oral word, but also the written word of the

44:20

Holy Scripture. Now, just to clarify, you understand,

44:26

I'm sure, well I'm not 100 % sure, but I'm assuming that you understand that Protestants do not believe that tradition has no place in the life of the

44:36

Church. It's just that we believe that the Scriptures are the only infallible and inerrant authority in the

44:44

Church. Yes, yes, I understand. Right. Just out of curiosity, because you're comparing it with the

44:53

Old Covenant Magisterium of the Jews, if you're using that as a model for the

45:01

Church, does it not trouble you that, A, those very same Jews demanded the execution of our

45:10

Savior, Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ himself refuted and repudiated and condemned some of the traditions that arose using that model that you claim is the appropriate one for the

45:23

Church? Oh no, not at all, because not all Jews, Peter, the

45:29

Apostles, the Blessed Virgin, Joseph, not all Jews acted in a way that was without reflection, without prayer, so it wouldn't just orbit.

45:41

No, I'm saying that the Jews that clearly adhered to the model that who added their own traditions that were not

45:48

God -breathed, that were not a part of the Old Covenant canon, they added their own traditions.

45:54

We never see any clear evidence that Jesus Christ agreed with any of those uncanonical, unbiblical traditions, and those traditions actually led the

46:08

Jews to want Christ to die for blasphemy. Well, some of the

46:13

Jews, not all the Jews. Yes, of course, I know that. Yeah, yeah, because as a matter of fact, Jesus Christ, God the

46:19

Eternal Son, did in fact state in Matthew 23, adhere and hold fast to you what is taught to you from the chair of Moses, which is an oral tradition, an oral teaching authority outside of Holy Scripture.

46:31

So He didn't condemn all tradition. He condemned all tradition that was used in a corrupt way or a hypocritical manner to place burdens on...

46:44

He said to listen to what they do, to adhere to what they do and what they teach, but don't do as they do because they didn't always practice what they preach.

46:50

So it's the hypocritical aspect of any tradition, which we know there was traditions in the early church.

46:59

Right, but it was the majority of those in leadership were the ones crying out for His death.

47:06

I know that many of the average Jews were not, although they were still a minority, those who were not, but the

47:17

Pharisees and the Sadducees certainly were among the leaders of those crying out for His execution.

47:24

Sure, but it wasn't, again, all of them. It was some. I mean, it wasn't all of them. I know we have

47:31

Nicodemus and others. Gamaliel, as many know, who some people wonder if he was there.

47:38

Yeah, Joseph Merrimethay, exactly, yes. But it was, at the time, and even in the early church, for me, and some of the early church fathers understood in the book of Acts, Acts chapter 15, there was debating going on, and Peter stood up, and as a sign of authority,

47:56

King David did that in 1 Chronicles. There was debating going on among the church leaders. King David stood up and put an end to the debating, ruling that circumcision was no longer necessary, even though Scripture alone in Genesis 17 -12 said it was.

48:12

So that's where we have, in a sense, the fact that it's not always just a written word, it's always a written word given by Jesus to his apostles, saying, whatever listens to you listens to me.

48:26

Yeah, well, obviously, a lot of this, what you're saying, is going to be a part of the debate, but I would radically disagree that it was not

48:33

God -breathed revelation in the new covenant that brought an end to the practice of circumcision as a requirement, as we see in Peter's revelation and so on.

48:44

So, but that obviously will be, those will be things that will be involved in the content of the debate coming up.

48:52

Sure, sure. One more question before I go to Anthony and Bruce. Oh, sure.

48:57

Having been a Roman Catholic myself and having participated in Roman Catholic debates as the orchestrator of them,

49:06

I only had one debate, as I mentioned, as a participant, or as a debater, I should say, and it was only a radio debate.

49:15

But in all these years, going all the way back to my childhood in the

49:23

Catholic Church as an altar boy until today, I have met many different kinds of Roman Catholics.

49:31

They not only will disagree with Protestants on varying levels of severity, but they will disagree with each other on varying levels of severity.

49:49

How can you, as a, well, first of all, perhaps I'm mischaracterizing you, but let me ask you, are you one who would follow the modern

50:00

Catholic catechism in regard to ecumenist relations or ecumenical relations with Protestants as well as Jews and Muslims?

50:12

As Vatican II opened up the door for this, which is included in your catechism, how can you reconcile that attitude with the

50:24

Council of Trent, who declared an anathema on people like me and Bruce and Anthony for believing in a gospel that is not the gospel of Rome?

50:39

I, you know, I don't know 100%, I want to pray about that, but I know that the Church, similar to what

50:45

Christ said, He promised and prayed for unity, and He also tried to, wants us to pray for those who are outside the

50:53

Church, to pray for all people. And the Church has always believed from the first day until now that it's only by the blood of Jesus Christ alone,

51:01

His name alone, that the gates of heaven have been opened. But it also states, too, when

51:07

Jesus Christ says, I shall give to everyone, each person, each person, He didn't say just each Christian, He said,

51:12

I shall give to each person according to one's conduct. So it allows for the fact that there are people who, like in Luke 12,

51:19

I guess you just said, there are some who are ignorant and who are not aware, who will be lessly chastised as opposed to those who know and don't do the will of God.

51:29

So I think it wants to allow it to open that way, to allow God to be the judge of each person's heart.

51:36

But to declare, in one sense, too, that it is through the blood of Christ alone, Acts 4 .12, 1

51:42

John 4 .14, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole world, His blood alone opened up the gates of heaven.

51:48

But as to far as by faith alone, if it's faith alone,

51:54

Paul says, even one has all faith but has not love, it's useless. So I think we have to just remember that Jesus Christ will give to each and every person, each and every person, according to one's conduct.

52:03

So we don't know the... Well, actually what I was asking, though, is the stark contrast between the

52:09

Council of Trent and Vatican II. That's really what I'm talking about. How can you reconcile those two extremes in your mind?

52:16

And keep in mind, as you know, the Catholic Church was executing, not only torturing, but executing people in the ages when, not only prior but following the

52:29

Council of Trent, for these disagreements. They weren't looked upon as brotherly disagreements. They were looked upon as something that was damnable.

52:37

And then you have... That's true. It's happened, sadly, in both churches, the way the Catholics have been. But also, too, there's a beautiful book out by Rodney Stark, who's a non -Catholic church historian, and he says a lot to determine whether or not it's called bearing false witness about some of these numbers who have been millions and millions of Protestants who have been...

52:56

And he's a non -Catholic, by the way, and he's a church historian, and a lot of these numbers have been exaggerated, he believes. Well, a lot of Protestant historians and theologians are apostates and leftists and liberals.

53:07

And keep in mind, Protestants don't declare that they have an infallible magisterium, though.

53:14

That is a very serious difference between any atrocity that occurred at the hands of Protestants.

53:21

But anyway, we have to go to our midway break. You can respond when we return. We have to go to a 12 -minute...

53:26

No, I just wanted to say when Jesus... Yeah, we'll take your response when we return, because I have to go to a break right now.

53:31

Oh, I'm so sorry. Sorry about that. Thank you. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

53:38

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with our guests after this 12 -minute break.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

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70 % off the retail price. Before I return to our interview with Anthony Uvinia, Bruce Bennett, and Matthew Luke Broderick, I just have a couple more announcements to make.

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First of all, the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is having a debate on the sola scriptura issue, one of the watchwords of the

01:05:29

Reformation, that scripture alone is the sole infallible authority for the church today.

01:05:37

That is going to be held on Saturday, April 14th at 6 30 p .m. at the

01:05:43

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island. The participants or the debaters involved in that debate are

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Pastor Bruce Bennett, representing historic Protestantism, and Matthew Luke Broderick, representing

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Roman Catholicism, and Anthony Uvinio of New York Apologetics is the moderator or will be the moderator.

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If you want more details on this debate, go to WOTChurch .com, that's

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WOT, which stands for Word of Truth Church .com, and that will have all the information that you need.

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Also, coming up in April from the 13th through the 15th at the

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First Christian Reform Church of Byron Center, Michigan, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having the

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Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology, and that includes Daniel Aiken, Richard Gaffin, Daniel Hyde, Conrad M.

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Bayway, who is the most powerful preacher I've ever heard in my life, Richard Phillips, Jonathan Master, David Murray, and Scott Oliphant.

01:06:48

That will also be held April 27th through the 29th at the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, so all of my listeners who are closer to Pennsylvania will be able to attend both the debate on Long Island that Bruce Bennett and Matthew Luke Broderick will be having, and also attend the

01:07:09

Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. And of course, it's named Philadelphia Conference only out of a sentimental attempt to pay tribute to Dr.

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James Montgomery Boyce, the late James Montgomery Boyce, who for many years conducted the Philadelphia Conference of Reformed Theology or on Reformed Theology at the 10th

01:07:29

Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, and now it is no longer being held there and is being held at different locations and states, so they call it

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Philadelphia Conference even though it's not being held in that city anymore. If you want more details, go to alliancenet .org,

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alliancenet .org. Please mention that you heard about these events from Chris Aronson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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01:09:49

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01:10:08

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. That is also the email address for you to send in questions if you have questions for any of our guests today.

01:10:19

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:10:25

and before the break, Matthew Luke Broderick, you were responding to my question where I was basically trying to get you to explain how you can reconcile the harshness of Trent with the openness of Vatican II and the modern -day

01:10:42

Catholic catechism, which makes even some more conservative and especially traditionalist

01:10:49

Catholics very uncomfortable. If you could explain how those two things can be reconciled in a church that has an infallible magisterium.

01:11:00

I do believe that over time that God does speak through his church.

01:11:08

Jesus Christ says, who you, here's you, here's me. But in reference to perhaps this switch, maybe was this an understanding of Luke 12, where Jesus says those who act in ignorance will be punished, but less severely than those who know the will of God and who don't do it.

01:11:30

So I think that could be a sway, perhaps at the time the Holy Spirit placed it on the hearts of the bishops to say that at the time of Trent, and over time perhaps to understand

01:11:40

Luke 12 a little better. I just had a question for you. I'm sorry, Chris, I was just wondering. Sure. You mentioned before about the two commands of God that you brought up on the radio about giving to the church.

01:11:52

Yeah, no, what I was saying is that people who are donating to my show should never disobey the scriptures in regard to supporting not only your church but your family.

01:12:04

I mean, for those who don't do that, but still have faith in Jesus Christ as their

01:12:12

Savior, will they be saved if they don't do that? Well, there's a difference between being saved and being obedient, and even the best of Christians at times, in fact more often than we can count, are disobedient, and this would be just an area.

01:12:29

I'm not saying that somebody who is not a member of a local church is automatically damned, but they are in very serious sin.

01:12:38

They're rebelling against God by seeking to remain independent and not have an authority over them, and I think that all three of the

01:12:48

Protestants here believe that the local elders of a Bible -believing church are the only authority outside of Scripture where we are to be submissive.

01:12:59

And let me ask, Pastor Bruce, would you agree with that? Yes, absolutely.

01:13:04

One can be justified apart from the church, but one cannot be sanctified apart from the church. The church plays a critical role in our sanctification, and those authorities, as you mentioned, the elders in particular of your local church, would be those that you'd be held accountable to, 1

01:13:22

Peter 5, Hebrews 13, etc. But yeah, absolutely. And Anthony?

01:13:29

Yes sir, I would hold to the autonomy of the local church, although there is also an association of churches that can gather together to talk.

01:13:40

One should be submitted to the local church, I believe in local church autonomy. Right, and there are people who reject the high view, the very, very high view of the church and the necessity of church that the

01:13:56

Roman Catholic Church claims, who run way too far in the other direction, to a point of being very heretical and dangerous, that don't see any significance for the church today at all.

01:14:11

And we would join you, Matthew, in saying that that is definitely unbiblical and very serious.

01:14:20

The difference we would have with the Church of Rome is the necessity that is involved in the administration of the sacraments and so on, which is actually,

01:14:31

I guess, a topic for another debate, because I have been involved in a number of debates with Roman Catholics who are tenaciously defending a sacerdotal or a sacramental understanding of salvation, and yet, where the modern day catechism is saying that Muslims adore the same true

01:14:53

God as we do, that leaves us baffled as to why someone would be, on the one hand, clinging tenaciously to the requirement of Roman Catholic sacraments, and then saying that not only

01:15:05

Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, but even atheists at times, if they're living according to the light they have or something, will enter into heaven.

01:15:15

I guess it does go back again to Luke 12, when Jesus talks about those who act in ignorance.

01:15:20

So that's why you believe that Roman Catholic Church has the understanding of invincible ignorance? To me, the sacraments, to me, are biblical as opposed to what you say are unbiblical.

01:15:34

But I was just wondering before about, just wondering about, for those who disobey their elders, for those who don't just give tithing, is that something they may be lost?

01:15:44

Is it possible? I thought it was, it doesn't matter what they do, even if they're not committed to the elders. Oh, well,

01:15:50

I think that their faith alone in Jesus Christ. You perhaps, yeah, you perhaps are going under the assumption that all

01:15:57

Protestants agree with modern -day evangelicals who are heretics, who believe in something that has been nicknamed easy believism or cheap grace, where you can go up the aisle of a church responding to an invitation or an altar call, as they call them, and read a prayer or recite a prayer and then live like Satan himself for the rest of your life and you're still going to heaven.

01:16:22

We who are theologically reformed, not only do we believe that that teaching is absent from any reformation figure of any note, but more importantly, it's absent from the scriptures.

01:16:37

We don't believe that people who are living in a way that's surrendered to sin and are unrepentantly living their entire lives as if they were disciples of Satan, we don't believe that those people will be in heaven one day, but that does not mean...

01:16:59

But those who do have faith in Jesus Christ and his blood alone and who aren't submissive in terms of like who don't go to a church and who don't just, who don't tithe, will they be saved based on their faith alone in Jesus Christ as their savior rather than submitting to the elders of a certain church?

01:17:13

Oh, I'll also have Bruce and Anthony reply to that, but like I said earlier, it would be a case -by -case situation.

01:17:19

I believe that there are genuinely born -again people who have serious, very serious and dangerous flaws and sins in their lives that will be in heaven, but that doesn't mean that all of those who profess

01:17:34

Christ who are living that way without membership in any church, that doesn't mean that they are all saved or born again, that there could be many of them and perhaps there are probably or most of them that are not saved, that are not regenerate.

01:17:51

Just as Jesus Christ, when he appeared to Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, it's interesting how even though Jesus had already been crucified and rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and was seated at the right hand of the

01:18:09

Father, even though he was not physically on the planet Earth when Saul of Tarsus was on the road to Damascus, when he knocked

01:18:20

Saul off his feet and cried out to him from heaven, he said,

01:18:27

Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? And I think that that shows a very serious connection that God has between himself and the church.

01:18:40

So therefore, if somebody has a flippant attitude towards the church, they have no interest in being connected to fellowship with the church or to being submissive to the elders of the church, they don't love the church,

01:18:53

I think that reflects that they have a very serious problem in the way they view God and a very serious problem in their affection toward God.

01:19:01

But Pastor Bruce, perhaps you want to add to that? Yes, as I said before, Chris, and I'll use the thief on the cross as an example, one can be justified apart from the church, but one can't be properly sanctified.

01:19:15

I meant to insert the adjective properly before the word sanctified. In other words, sanctification and justification are two different aspects of salvation.

01:19:24

Of course, the person who is justified will eventually be sanctified, in a proper sense, if he's truly justified.

01:19:32

And of course, word of baptism, which is administered through the church, the sacraments of the

01:19:38

Lord's table, and baptism would be two physical manifestations of the power that Christ has invested in the church in terms of authority, and of course the discipline that goes with the members who are baptized members of that local assembly have to be under that discipline, under the authority of that church to continue to receive, for example, the

01:20:04

Lord's table, to be in good standing. And all that is included under the teaching of the church, and under the fellowship of the church, and so on.

01:20:12

And God uses that all to help sanctify us and bring us into maturity as one of God's children, so we can become a pleasing child.

01:20:22

But the fact of us being God's child remains, in and of itself, a thief on the cross, certainly with a child of God, was never word of baptized, never received either the

01:20:31

Lord's table or, you know, at the fellowship, or even the teaching of the church, necessarily, but certainly because he was graced, and he did receive the gift of faith by the

01:20:42

Holy Spirit, was included in, you know, the assembly of the and went to heaven.

01:20:50

But I agree with you, Chris, if someone is a true believer, if they've truly been justified and they renounce the church, they walk away from the church, it's a pretty good sign that they probably never knew the

01:21:02

Lord to begin with. And Anthony? Yeah, no, I think this is a very, very interesting question in light of Roman Catholic doctrine.

01:21:11

If a Protestant has faith in Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of his sins and is disciplined by his pastor or disobeys his pastor, he would be in sin.

01:21:22

But this is the point of having a Savior, trusting in Jesus for the covering of your sins, not so that it's a license to sin, but in the event you do, you have a

01:21:33

Savior which guarantees your entrance into heaven. We have a definite atonement. Jesus paid the price for our sins such that we will enter heaven sanctified.

01:21:44

Now, in light of Roman Catholic doctrine, many of my relatives, unfortunately, they make

01:21:49

Holy Communion, they generally don't go to church, and then they make Confirmation, and then, unfortunately, well, some of them get married, so they participate in the sacrament of marriage and generally don't go to church, but yet when they die, the priest stands up in front of everyone and says, well, they're in a much better place now.

01:22:12

And these people had really, honestly, no faith. They went through the motions with the sacraments, and the priest now stands up and at their funeral says, well, they're in a much better place.

01:22:25

In fact, I've heard a priest say, not only should we pray for them, we should pray to them.

01:22:32

So now these are people who I know who truly didn't have faith in Jesus, they lived their life basically self -centered, not trusting in Jesus as their

01:22:42

Savior, trusting in their good works, and now the priest gives assurance to everyone listening that they're in a better place.

01:22:49

So my question to Matthew would be, would the Roman Catholic who does the sacraments, who doesn't really go to church, go to heaven?

01:23:02

I think, to be honest, that's for God to decide. But I know as a Catholic Christian, we don't believe it's our good works alone.

01:23:09

I guess we as Catholic Christians believe it was the blood of Jesus Christ alone that opened up the gates of heaven, one closed due to sin. His blood was available for all people to embrace.

01:23:17

But since faith alone doesn't justify us before God, James 4, 1 Corinthians 13, that even if one has all faith but has not love,

01:23:24

Jesus says if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments. You must keep the commandments, but if you break them, we're to confess our sins, 1

01:23:30

John 1, 9, we're to repent of our sins, turn away from sin. We're to hope in the kindness and mercy of God.

01:23:36

And that's just, for a priest to say that is his own individual opinion, not the proclamation of the

01:23:44

Church, we actually pray for the souls. Right. And of course, Anthony, I'm sure you would agree, though, that there are a lot of evangelical pastors that would do the same kind of thing, just not to offend the surviving loved ones of the deceased.

01:24:06

They might say all kinds of ridiculous things at a funeral, to give them comfort wrongly.

01:24:12

You know, we believe Uncle Bill is in heaven because of this or that or that, the other thing.

01:24:19

So I mean, that's not the exclusive backyard of a Roman Catholic Church to do that.

01:24:26

But one thing I can say... Right, no, I agree. I'm just saying, in light of the question, if a

01:24:32

Protestant had faith in Jesus and sinned by disobeying his elder, would he be able to get into heaven?

01:24:39

And again, it's odd that that question would be asked when it's typically the same on the other side.

01:24:51

Oh yeah, exactly. No, I totally understand. I just want to hear quickly, with the announcement saying there's two commandments, that the

01:24:56

God commandment must be... as opposed to faith alone, this is something that must also be done, so that it's apart from...

01:25:05

similar to what we believe is we must have faith, we must also keep the commandments of God. Jesus Christ said that,

01:25:11

Paul says that. Right. So in terms of, like, it's God's grace, we just have to cooperate with it.

01:25:16

And if we break the commandments, we have to confess our sins, we have to turn away from sin, we have to lead a life where Paul says,

01:25:22

Jesus says, we must produce good fruit, we must produce good fruit, and he will separate those, the trees, the fruits, that's all.

01:25:30

It's God's grace alone, we just have to cooperate. That's the difference, I think. So thank you for the opportunity, and please forgive me if I ever become a cause of disrespect or anything,

01:25:38

I apologize. Oh, not at all, not at all. And I wouldn't disagree with you. We, as a

01:25:43

Christian, I believe that true possession of true faith will automatically produce good fruit in the way of works.

01:25:52

I wouldn't rely on my works, because those are the fruit of my salvation, not the root.

01:25:59

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is maybe it's a misconception.

01:26:05

A lot of Catholics are relying on their works in order to get into Heaven, no? No, I truly don't believe that, because I know the

01:26:13

Church doesn't even teach that. I think the Church teaches we are saved by grace, through faith, working, and love.

01:26:19

But the thing is, what Christ Himself said, whenever there's a judgment, in talks about Revelation, Matthew 16, 1

01:26:27

Peter 1, 17, the Father shall give to everyone according to one's works. It's just the fact that we need to, we need to, in one sense, produce that good fruit.

01:26:37

If we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. If we don't show mercy,

01:26:42

Jesus says, blessed are the merciful. For those who show mercy shall be shown mercy. So I think it's a requirement that we need to, we just know that we must, like Luke 11,

01:26:52

Jesus Christ said, blessed are those who not just hear the Word of God, but put it into practice. So we just know that we have to put

01:26:57

God's Word into practice. We rely on His blood. We rely on His grace. We also rely on the kindness of God.

01:27:04

We just know that we have to produce good fruit. We have to have, like Paul says, we have to put on that new man.

01:27:10

We have to do something different. We have to, you know, we have to imitate Christ.

01:27:16

We have to, we have to, you know, Jesus says in John 5, to those who do good, He's going to the resurrection of life.

01:27:24

Not, you know, it's just, it's Christ's blood alone. His blood alone opened up the gate to heaven for everyone.

01:27:29

It's just that we need to cooperate with grace and bear good fruit. Like, that's why, I think in, I think it was the book of Luke or Mark, when they said to John, John says, who's, who want you to flee from the wrath to come?

01:27:43

And he said, what must we do? What must we do? And he didn't say have faith alone. He said, you must change your lives.

01:27:50

You must, you must give, so I mean, you must give to the needy. You must not take advantage of your brothers.

01:27:57

I mean, so this is something I believe, as Catholic Christians, we're more aware of the need that we must have faith in Christ.

01:28:03

We must also put His words into practice and do the will of the Father, which is love God and love neighbor. That's all.

01:28:08

Right. Well, the huge difference, though, would be that the Council of Trent specifically condemns, with an anathema, those that believe that good works are only a fruit or evidence of the faith that justifies.

01:28:27

The Council of Trent clearly believes that works are meritorious, not that they alone earn salvation.

01:28:36

The blood of Christ, as the Church of Rome would affirm, is absolutely essential.

01:28:42

But the Council of Trent, which is dogmatic and is not subject to the whims of modern bishops and popes even, the

01:28:54

Council of Trent clearly states, dogmatically, that works cooperate with the grace of God to actually save someone and make them worthy of heaven.

01:29:07

And the Protestants... Trent also affirmed that faith without works is dead, similar to what

01:29:12

James said in Matthew 25, where Jesus said that, yes, exactly.

01:29:18

So James said to have faith, but to walk past your neighbor who's cold and not to give him a blanket, that faith without works is dead.

01:29:26

Yeah, well, that's just... Jesus said that everyone should be judged according to their works. And for those who did not show mercy to those who did not show kindness to God.

01:29:34

So the Church, Jesus said, it's grace, the blood of Christ. But if you don't produce that good fruit,

01:29:41

Jesus said, if you don't believe, you won't be forgiven. Well, like I said, there's a big...

01:29:47

there's a chasm of difference between believing that those works are a required evidence and fruit and believing that they actually contribute to the death of Christ in order to save men, the latter of which

01:30:05

Bible -believing Protestants find abhorrent and damning. Because we are...

01:30:11

because in a statement and a belief like that, you are saying Jesus's death on Calvary is not sufficient, that we must do something to earn salvation, in addition to the treasury of merit that we are allegedly getting benefit from of the works of Christ, Mary, and the saints and our own works.

01:30:34

But there's a difference between the works being an evidence and them being necessary requirements to merit eternal life or increase the grace that enables us to enter heaven.

01:30:49

And James never says in his epistle that works are in any way involved meritoriously in our gaining or increasing grace to be saved.

01:31:00

It's just saying that faith without works is dead, and that's true. And it's true. So one can have faith, but even like Paul says, even if one has enough faith to move the mountains, but has not love, who does not produce love, it's useless.

01:31:13

John the Baptist says that if you do not produce good fruit with your repentance, so the

01:31:18

Catholic Church understands that it needs not just grace, but they need to cooperate with that grace. And two, if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven.

01:31:26

Jesus says, blessed are the merciful, and it will be meritorious for you because you will be shown mercy. So if we don't, it's the blood of Christ alone, how does one inherit that?

01:31:37

By repenting of one's sins, and by turning to God in hopelessness, but also in showing, if you don't show mercy to your neighbor,

01:31:45

God may not show mercy to you. Matthew, you know, Jesus says, for those who do not show mercy, not everything will automatically flow.

01:31:53

Like you said, there are some Christians who sadly do not always produce that good fruit, who do not always pray, who do not always ask for guidance, who do not always ask for a change of heart.

01:32:03

But Paul says you must put on the good man. You must put on the new man. You must. It's not something that will automatically happen.

01:32:10

So that's why it's something that is just a need for the Catholic Church to understand that we cooperate with grace. Right, and that's why we believe that just as the

01:32:19

Judaizers insisted on something to be added to faith, were condemned by Paul as being anathematized, and having a false gospel that is no gospel at all, that that one thing, the requirement of circumcision, made

01:32:36

Paul recoil with disgust, and he condemned that false gospel of the

01:32:42

Judaizers. So we are just trying to be consistent with any religion that requires works as meritorious, not as evidence alone, which we believe that they must be there.

01:32:58

A good tree will bear good fruit, and a bad tree will bear bad fruit. Yeah, you're right.

01:33:05

They must be there. It must be there. That's what I mean. I think that's what Jesus said. Not everyone requires

01:33:10

Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of the Father, and the will of the Father is to love God and love neighbors. Right. And that's why

01:33:16

Paul says, even if one has all faith, enough faith to move the mountains, but does not love, it's useless. So it's not just the faith, faith alone, it's faith put into practice.

01:33:25

Right. Well, we have to go to our final break. I would like to... Yeah, if you could, Anthony, respond after the final break, because we just have to go to our final break.

01:33:33

Sure, absolutely. Okay. No problem. If anybody likes to join us now is your time to join us with a question at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:33:41

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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do, than how men view these things.

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01:35:46

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, our guests today have been, and will continue to be,

01:35:56

Anthony Uvino, who is the founder or co -founder of New York Apologetics, Pastor Bruce Bennett, who is the pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and Matthew Luke Broderick, a lay

01:36:13

Catholic apologist. All three of these individuals are going to be involved in a debate on Saturday, April 14th at 6 30 p .m.

01:36:21

at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville. Anthony Uvino is the moderator. Bruce Bennett is representing historic

01:36:28

Protestantism, and Matthew Luke Broderick is representing Roman Catholicism.

01:36:34

And if you want more details about that debate, go to wotchurch .com, wotchurch .com.

01:36:43

And Anthony, if you could, you were about to respond before we went to the break. Yeah, thanks,

01:36:49

Chris. I just also wanted to say, not only as Protestants are we sola scriptura, we're tota scriptura, so it's all a scripture.

01:36:56

So when I look in the Old Testament, and I read the book of Ezekiel, chapter 36, verse 26, this is

01:37:03

God speaking. He says, and I will give you a new heart and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh, and I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and cause you to be careful to obey my rules.

01:37:21

So the fruit that we grow, that we produce, is actually a result of the

01:37:26

Spirit of God changing our hearts such that He actually is the reason for the fruit.

01:37:32

So it's not, I can't even count on me producing the fruit, it's the Spirit in me. Like Jesus says, it's not me, it's the

01:37:39

Father in me. He does the work. So my salvation from beginning, middle, and end is to the glory of God alone.

01:37:47

He graciously saved me such that even the works that I do, I'm going to lay down at His feet in thanks for what

01:37:55

He's done for me. Amen. Yeah, that... If I could add... Go ahead, go ahead. Chris.

01:38:02

Yeah, no, because Matthew had tried to present this sort of,

01:38:07

I guess, post -Vatican II idea, where it's almost like the Catholic Church is trying to borrow, you know,

01:38:15

Protestant doctrine here, and he kind of insinuated, and he believes it, that the Catholic Church officially believes that, you know, faith alone, and Christ alone, is actually sufficient.

01:38:28

But I would argue, at least the inference that he is intending there, is not the case.

01:38:36

That Rome, in fact, explicitly denies salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone.

01:38:43

In many ways, I'll just give one chief evidence, and that would be purgatory being necessary for the average

01:38:49

Catholic to go through, and that suffering becomes redemptive, in the sense of adding merit or works, as it were, to qualify the individual to receive, as Matthew said, the grace that Christ provided on Calvary.

01:39:04

And I would say that that, in and of itself, repudiates the gospel of God's grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, that's clearly taught in Scripture.

01:39:15

And obviously... Go ahead, did you want to respond? Okay, no, sure. Yeah, I definitely believe, and hope,

01:39:23

I guess that would... Paul would hope to, and Peter would hope, but sadly, it doesn't always happen where we cooperate with the grace of God, where Christ is in us, sure, but someone could pass me on the road, and as a

01:39:35

Christian, I may not listen to the Christ within me, and I may cut the person off, and so we have to cooperate with that grace and to allow

01:39:41

Christ to flow within us. That's why Jesus Christ said, if you don't... He's talking to believers, and he said, if you don't forgive others, neither will you be forgiven.

01:39:48

It's something that we need to do, we need to cooperate with that grace each day. But as regards to purgatory, if you look at 2

01:39:54

Corinthians 5, verses 10, it says we will receive recompense, not just for the good that we've done in the body, but also for the bad that we've done in the body.

01:40:02

Why will we receive recompense for the bad that we've done in the body when Christ already received that recompense on the cross? Jesus says we shall be held accountable for every careless word that we utter, but why should we be held accountable for our careless words when

01:40:13

Christ was already held accountable for them? And 1 Peter says, love one another, for love covers a multitude of your sins, but how can our love for others cover a multitude of our sins when

01:40:22

Christ already covered them on the cross? So I think it's similar to the Old Testament, where there was

01:40:28

David sinned, but was forgiven, but had the temporal punishment of having, sadly, his newborn baby passed.

01:40:39

So there's eternal and temporal punishment. Yes, well you just said a very key thing. There are eternal and temporal punishments.

01:40:46

God is both a father who chastises his children and he is a judge who will condemn the lost.

01:40:55

We who have been given the gift of eternal life will only receive the first and not the latter.

01:41:02

And one can only wonder, how do you ever know? In 2 Corinthians 5,

01:41:09

Paul says we shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ and receive recompense for both the good but also for the bad.

01:41:17

We're not going to be condemned and receive the wrath of God if we have been given the gift of eternal life.

01:41:24

And my point, how do you know, Matthew? Well obviously this is, again, another reason for a debate, which we're not going to do right now.

01:41:39

But there's obviously, as we were saying from the beginning, a different gospel here. The Church of Rome and historic

01:41:45

Protestants have two different gospels. Only one can be correct. And how do you know that you have appeased

01:41:54

God with enough repentance and good works and all that? Can you ever know on this earth that you have received eternal life because you have done enough?

01:42:05

I don't know, I believe. I don't think until Judgment Day when Paul says, our works will be tested and made manifest, and after death some shall indeed be saved, but suffer loss and be saved but only as through fire.

01:42:18

So that's... So you can never know on this earth if you are going to heaven or hell. Oh, to heaven or hell?

01:42:25

Yeah. I believe we can if we hope, but like Jesus Christ says, to those who persevere to the end, those who cooperate with the grace, those who take up their cause each day.

01:42:34

But especially just hoping in the kindness of God, but allowing to know that God will judge the work of Jesus.

01:42:40

If you look at the first book of John, John says, this is so that you may know that you are saved. But John uses the word if over ten times.

01:42:48

If we forgive others, if we keep the commandments, if we love one another, if we put his word into practice. So we can't have that assurance if we keep all the ifs.

01:42:57

Yeah, but nobody can do that, can they? Nobody can keep all of the ifs. Can you love the

01:43:03

Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength every moment of every day? Can anybody do that?

01:43:11

We don't know, but some people say, well, no one could ever keep the commandments. But yet it's in the book of Luke, it says Elizabeth was blameless before God in her keeping the commandments because she cooperated with that grace.

01:43:20

So Paul says, you've been given every supernatural gifts under heaven. But for me, I'm just, when you had reference to the purgatory that Pastor Bruce had mentioned, it's not an insult to Christ, but it's just an understanding the book of Hebrews talks about, we should each have to give an account for our lives.

01:43:36

The word of Jesus Christ. You know, it is also second Corinthians 5 .17, which he recommends also for the bad, also for the bad, that's each person.

01:43:46

Well, we would believe that purgatory is really one of the most dangerous heresies ever developed, because you are, it is a mockery of the complete and sufficient work of Christ on Calvary.

01:43:57

Well, it isn't, again, because 1 Corinthians 3 .15, Paul says, our works shall be tested, and after death some shall suffer loss and be saved, but only as to a friar.

01:44:05

Right. Well, I would disagree that that has anything, let me direct my listeners to a debate that Dr.

01:44:11

James R. White conducted with Father Peter Stravinskis on the matter of purgatory.

01:44:17

You could see it on YouTube in its entirety. You could see it, you could get it from Alpha and Omega Ministries website, aomin .org.

01:44:24

Now this, obviously, I keep saying is not supposed to be a debate, but it proves what I have been saying from the very beginning.

01:44:31

We have different gospels. We have different ways of entering into heaven. So therefore,

01:44:38

I think that these events, like debates, even though one side may be saying of the other, you are not my brother, that does not mean that we hate you, or that we think that we are innately superior to you.

01:44:53

I have Roman Catholic friends that I believe are superior to me in a host of ways, and the way that they live and conduct their lives.

01:45:03

There are Roman Catholic men that are far better husbands than I ever was. There are Roman Catholic children who are far better children to their parents than I ever was.

01:45:14

We could go on and on, citizens, neighbors. So it's not the issue of we're better than you.

01:45:20

It's just that we, who are Bible -believing Protestants, believe that we have the truth from the

01:45:28

God -breathed scriptures and the true gospel, and it's clear that there are two radically different understandings of salvation that are being held to, and the reason for me reiterating this is

01:45:42

I don't understand the ecumenist, whether the ecumenist is a Protestant, like Billy Graham, or the

01:45:48

Roman Catholics, such as yourself, or most of those, in fact, probably all of those

01:45:53

Catholic answers. How they could say that their Protestant friends are separated brethren who will go to heaven, possibly, when it is clear the gospel is different that we hold to.

01:46:07

Well, Chris, I just quickly want to add something, because I think in listening to what Matthew says and trying to understand his position, he says that works are not meritorious, but if you don't have them, you're going to be judged and potentially not get into heaven, which would mean they are meritorious, and I think this is a fundamental difference between what a

01:46:30

Protestant believes by faith and what a Catholic believes by the word faith. When I use the word faith,

01:46:36

I use it as trust. I'm trusting, relying on Jesus as the propitiation for my sins.

01:46:43

In other words, his death on the cross was sufficient to satisfy all the wrath of God against me for all of my sins.

01:46:53

Once I do that, I'm placed in proper relationship with God, and now I work out my salvation with fear and trembling based upon the

01:47:02

Spirit of God in me that writes his law upon my heart and compels me to do good works.

01:47:07

The works flow from a changed heart. I don't change my own heart. God changes it such that we can say, like Paul quoting

01:47:17

David in Romans says, blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered.

01:47:24

Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. This is the gospel.

01:47:29

When you truly trust in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation, you are now in right relationship with him, and even repentance for a

01:47:39

Protestant is a gift of God. If God is in your heart, good works will naturally flow from that relationship, from that changed heart, so that you will have good works on the day of judgment, and those good works are going to be judged, but for rewards, not your justification before God.

01:48:00

In fact, in James, he specifically says, this is not for your justification before God, but before men.

01:48:07

That's all I would like to add. And I think, and Matthew, perhaps you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you said that the works of men are meritorious, but they by themselves can never merit heaven, that the death of Christ is required, and so on.

01:48:23

Am I right on that? Right, it's through his blood alone. It's through his blood alone that the gates of heaven were opened.

01:48:32

But we have to cooperate with grace. To merit salvation.

01:48:37

If good works, well, no, no. If good works automatically flow, I would have no need to, you know, talk to those in Corinth and Galatians, and saying, you know, don't do certain things.

01:48:49

You're a Christian, but I've heard you're doing certain things. So, in other words, if you have children, if you have children, in order for them to remain your children, they have to obey you.

01:49:04

Is that what you're saying? That a parent should never say to a child, don't run out in the street, don't smoke drugs, don't have sex before marriage.

01:49:14

A parent shouldn't have to tell that child those things because that child will always be the child of the parent.

01:49:21

So is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying... Well, that's what really, I think it's a perfect parallel.

01:49:27

Well, no, actually it's not really, because Paul says to those who have faith in Jesus Christ, but who act in a way that's immoral and impure, he says, you shall not enter the kingdom of God.

01:49:36

He's not saying, oh, you know, you really shouldn't do that. He says, if you do such things, you're not going to enter the kingdom of heaven. Well, obviously, even your church believes that there are immoral, disobedient

01:49:51

Catholics in their millions, but they receive the sacrament of penance in order to get out from under that condemnation.

01:49:59

We believe, as Bible -believing Protestants, that the finished work of Christ is what has removed that curse and that enslavement from us, that death of Christ alone.

01:50:13

And even though Christians do commit horrible sins, the difference between somebody who's born again and somebody who is a false professor is the area of repentance.

01:50:23

If a person is surrendered to sin and lives that way for the rest of their lives and they never repent, that person certainly will be in hell.

01:50:33

But any final words from you, Bruce and Anthony? Yeah, I just want to add quickly that the essence of the gospel is expressed in John 17, 3, in my opinion, where Jesus said, and this is eternal life, that they may know thee, the only true and living

01:50:50

God, and Jesus Christ, in that sense. So what is justification? What is salvation?

01:50:56

What is eternal life? It's knowing God personally. It's knowing God intimately.

01:51:03

That word know there is gnosko in the original language, and it means to know on an experiential, relational level, whereas Anthony said before, the

01:51:10

Holy Spirit actually changes your heart. The Holy Spirit actually takes residence in your heart, gives you a new heart.

01:51:17

Not that it's perfect, but it's different. It's empowered by the Spirit. It's given a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and it puts you on that path for sanctification.

01:51:27

As Anthony said before, when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, it won't be unto damnation the areas that we are disobedient, it will be unto a loss of reward.

01:51:36

So I think that the most damning thing Matthew said today in regards to Rome's gospel that he's representing is the fact that he admits that he does not know

01:51:48

Jesus Christ personally. He doesn't have a personal assurance. He doesn't have a personal relationship with Christ, which gives him that knowledge of God, which is, in and of itself, salvation.

01:52:00

John 17, 3. And that's what really divides us. And Anthony, do you have anything to add in closing?

01:52:07

No, I think that was a great point. You know, this is eternal life, that they may know you, the one true God, in Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

01:52:14

If you know Jesus as Savior, you know that his death on the cross was sufficient for your sins.

01:52:22

Otherwise, Christianity is just turned into any other religion on the planet. There's only really two religions in the world, human accomplishment or divine achievement.

01:52:34

Human accomplishment, all those religions teaches this is what you do to work your way into heaven. Christianity is the only one that says you cannot work your way into heaven.

01:52:42

Your works are not going to merit you heaven. In fact, your situation is so grave, so dangerous, that God has to leave heaven, come down to earth and rescue you from beginning, middle to end.

01:52:53

He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it. God finishes what he starts.

01:52:59

When he starts that good work in your heart, he sanctifies you and eventually will glorify you, which is the essence of Romans 8, 28.

01:53:08

And Matthew, do you admit here that there are two different gospels, the gospel of Rome and the gospel that the

01:53:17

Reformation historically has stood for, that they are in very stark contrast to one another in many ways that really determines the eternal destiny of those that are adhering to one or the other?

01:53:34

Again, speaking about Luke 12, there's an ignorance, you know, in terms of the councils. But yes, definitely an absolute, whereas Catholic Christians, we believe that it was

01:53:43

Christ's blood alone that opened up the gates of heaven. We just don't believe it's through faith alone. We believe that we need to not just hear the

01:53:50

Word of God, but put it into practice. We have to bear that good fruit. We have to. If we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven.

01:53:56

There are some that say, well, it will automatically happen. Well, Paul's writing to the Ephesians and Galatians, those who have faith in Jesus Christ, and he's warning them, if you don't act, if you don't cooperate with grace, if you don't walk the way of the

01:54:07

Lord, he says you're not worthy and you shall not enter the kingdom, even though they have faith in Christ. Sadly, faith doesn't always produce what is needed, and what is needed is obedience and cooperation with God's grace in order to serve him and to love him, and in order to inherit the kingdom of God by repenting of our sins.

01:54:26

But you would have to say that those that have really studied the issue,

01:54:32

I mean, you're talking about, you know, if you want to even include men whose intellects and hours and years of study far exceed any

01:54:40

Protestant on this show today, that those people, according to what you keep repeating about ignorance, those people will certainly be in hell unless they repent.

01:54:49

If they are adhering continually, in spite of what you say, is evidence to the contrary, that they, until their deaths, adhere to a

01:55:00

Protestant gospel. I'm assuming, to be consistent, you must believe that they will be in hell. I guess, no,

01:55:07

I don't, because I leave it to God. But, like, in Trent, the same is for ignorance, Luke 12, as those who act in ignorance and those who do not.

01:55:14

But some of the Protestants who believe that, you know, the persons of Rome who believe that we do need to cooperate with grace, we do need to show mercy in order to be forgiven, we do need to not just hear the word of God, but put it into practice.

01:55:29

So we may be also assigned to be in hell for something that we need to, something we must do.

01:55:37

Repent, keep the very good fruit, and forgive others, and cooperate with the grace of God and hope in his mercy.

01:55:44

So hopefully we just allow God to determine which one of us is right, which church is right, and to hopefully show mercy to us all.

01:55:53

Amen. Well, he's obviously not going to show mercy to us all.

01:56:00

I mean, there is a hell, and I know that the Roman Catholic Church believes in that. I'm not sure if Pope Francis believes in an eternal conscious state of torment.

01:56:11

But that is actually a debate that I hope to organize at some point in the future.

01:56:18

I want to organize a debate on whether or not Pope Francis is a faithful shepherd.

01:56:25

I don't know if anybody involved here can find an apologist, a

01:56:31

Roman Catholic apologist that wants to defend that thesis, that Pope Francis is a faithful shepherd, because that is the next debate that I would like to orchestrate with Dr.

01:56:40

Tony Costa here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. But I want to thank all of you.

01:56:47

I especially want to thank Matthew Broderick because he was outnumbered today, and it really turned into more of a debate than I wanted it to.

01:56:58

But it was nearly impossible to prevent entirely this becoming a debate because there were constant proof texts being brought up to defend specific issues, so I couldn't just lay them or let them lie there without being responded to.

01:57:14

But I want to thank you so much, Matthew. You've been a gentleman, and you've been very gracious and polite, and I look forward to,

01:57:20

God willing, meeting you. I don't know if I can make it out on the 12th of March, but I'm going to try to.

01:57:27

I appreciate the opportunity very much. Like, again, I do have a passion and sometimes a side to me that gets very heated, or hopefully not disrespectful.

01:57:35

But actually, you never sounded disrespectful. Anthony and Chris, I'm so grateful for the opportunity.

01:57:41

Right. Yeah, you never sounded disrespectful once that I can recall during this entire discussion.

01:57:47

But I know that the New York Apologetics, the website of Anthony Eugenio is

01:57:53

NewYorkApologetics .com, and that's spelled out with two words, N -E -W -Y -O -R -K,

01:58:01

I'm sorry, NewYorkApologetics .com. And Pastor Bruce Bennett's website for Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is

01:58:13

WOTChurch, which stands for WordOfTruthChurch .com,

01:58:18

W -O -T -Church .com. And the debate, once again, is going to be held on Saturday, April 14th.

01:58:27

Yeah, I misspoke earlier when I said March 12th, that's today. The debate is actually

01:58:35

Saturday, April 14th, 6 .30 p .m. at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island.

01:58:42

And we hope that as many of you who can travel to Farmingville can attend that debate.

01:58:50

Between our guests, Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church and Matthew Broderick, Matthew Luke Broderick, a lay

01:58:59

Catholic apologist with Anthony Eugenio serving as moderator. I want to thank everybody who listened today.

01:59:07

I want to urge you to listen not only tomorrow and every day to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, but listen to the program on Wednesday, this

01:59:15

Wednesday, the 14th of March, when I interview Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who's going to be giving an assessment and critique of my debate with James Bogle, who is a

01:59:30

Roman Catholic barrister in Great Britain. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

01:59:40

Savior than you are a sinner. I look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow and every day,