March 12, 2018 Show with Anthony Uvenio, Bruce Bennett, and Matthew Luke Broderick on “Theological Debates: Hate Speech or Love Speech?”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and the Value of Theological Debate

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 12th day of March 2018.

And we have a topic today that is obviously near and dear to my heart because Anyone who knows anything about Chris Arntz and and iron sharpens iron radio knows that back in 1996 I began orchestrating annually Live theological debates on Long Island, New York between dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and a host of other Host of Roman Catholic Apologists who were his opponents in these debates on a whole host of issues ranging from the Marian dogmas to the papacy to the priesthood to Purgatory to the Apocrypha and many other issues that separate Roman Catholics from evangelical Protestants and our Reformation forefathers.

But.

Why Theological Debates Are Not Hate Speech

Today we are going to be discussing The theme theological debates hate speech or love speech. All these years that I have conducted these live theological debates I have Repeatedly heard that what I was doing was a horrible thing That this is hate speech and so on which always puzzled me because we had members of both Evangelical Protestantism and Roman Catholicism Participating in the events, so I'm not sure how They could view it as a hate speech.

Event.

But we're going to be getting more involved into the details of this and to see what our guests have to say. Obviously we are assuming that since all three of my guests are involved in an upcoming debate.

They don't view debates intrinsically or in general as hate speech. But first let me welcome to iron sharpens iron radio a returning guest Anthony Eugenio who's co-founder of New York apologetics. It's great to have you back on the program Anthony Eugenio.

Thanks, Chris. I really appreciate it. Look forward to diving into the topic and.

Learning some new stuff as well. Yes, and if anybody wants to look up the organization where Anthony Eugenio Presides as a director go to New York apologetics calm and those words are spelled out New York Apologetics calm.

We also have joining us pastor Bruce Bennett. Who is the pastor at word of truth word of truth Church in? Farmingville Long Island, New York. It's great to have you back on the program pastor Bruce. Hey Chris, always a pleasure to be with you.

Thanks for having me. And why don't you just quickly tell our listeners a summary of.

Word of truth Church church started 2009. It belong to the Evie free. We got the blessing to do a church plant in that year. I didn't agree with the pre-millennial position of evangelical free. So we Became a non-denominational Continuationist in our pneumatology and a very hymn to be.

Ethically.

Evangelical.

Church serving so pastor Bruce is a Calvinist pastor who is a Continuationist and that believes that contemporary music is Appropriate in the worship service and he's also the only Calvinist pastor. I know of that excommunicated himself.

And how we have Finally to join us for the very first time ever on iron sharpens iron Matthew Broderick. I'm so excited to have somebody of your Worldwide fame on the program and I must say that although I loved your performance in the producers.

I did prefer Gene Wilder's.

Well.

Matthew Luke Broderick is a lay Catholic Apollo Apologist and he is going to be Debating one of the other guests that I just announced pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville Long Island, New York.

And Why don't you tell us?

Matthew what the theme of this debate is and that will be Saturday April 14th 630 p .m.

Eastern Time at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and if anybody wants more details including directions You can go to WOT church .com WOT which stands for Word of Truth Church.

Calm and tell us briefly Matthew how you got the bug to be involved in Catholic apologetics where you raised Roman Catholic. To begin with I usually ask my first-time guests About their spiritual journeys and but by the way, I think that everybody on this program may have been raised Roman Catholic.

I was. Were you Bruce? Yeah, and how about you Anthony? Yes with the name like Euvenio I would be shocked if it was anything else. And So Matthew were you raised to Roman Catholic? Let's proof right there that you were raised.

I just drawn. Being the most, you know. Diet and rose. Jesus thing. And from what I recall from our conversation beforehand.

You've been in some level involved in Catholic apologetics for 15 years.

Yes, yes, I wanted to get it from her for a few members of my family. It was about Wandering and wandering the next day. I got about 500 emails. That time on I guess for the last time to understand scripture and with the church fathers toward him.

Thing like that so and I understand that you are. You are the one that actually contacted pastor Bruce to participate in a debate.

Yes, I was. I enjoy really enjoy watching debates. Hearing both sides trying to pray to be open to and I was really inspired by Bruce and Christian and their love for Christ. The love for Holy Scripture.

And I just wanted to be able to present a great job with Salvation justification things like that, right? Enough to allow me the opportunity.

Well before I forget I do want to let our listeners know that this Wednesday My guest is going to be dr. Tony Costa who is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary. He also is a former Roman Catholic.

When I say also, I mean just like me and Anthony Eugenio and Bruce Bennett not Matthew Luke Broderick who is still a Roman Catholic, but Anthony you Tony Costa is going to be reviewing a debate that I had on British radio.

The unbelievable program hosted by Justin Briarley there in the UK back right before Reformation Day, I believe it was of 2017. I Was invited to participate in a discussion With a Roman Catholic who was formerly Protestant and I being a former Catholic who converted to biblical Reformational Protestantism they wanted us both on to give our stories.

I had no idea that I was going to be debating. Mr Bogle when it turned into a debate which was interesting because that was my very first debate that I actually participated in as a debater and of course, it wasn't Quite as structured as a public moderated debate would be with with the specific timing and so on For each segment.

This was more of a free-formed debate in a discussion on the radio. But anyway, we're going to be playing that debate slash discussion that I had with James Bogle who is a Roman Catholic attorney or as they call them barristers there in the UK and He's also the head of a Roman Catholic Apostolate there in the UK and If I thought it was quite an interesting discussion slash debate, and I hope that you enjoyed as well.

And we're gonna have Tony Costa review that.

Event.

This Wednesday God willing. So 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, so please mark that on your calendar. But I'm gonna give our listeners our email address if they would like to join us on the air of the question of their own.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

The Nature of Debate, Correction, and Christian Charity

Before I go to Anthony and Bruce, I'm going to go directly to Matthew Luke Broderick today with a question about debates in and of themselves. Obviously Matthew since you contacted pastor Bruce Bennett to debate him you actually Initiated the the challenge or the invitation to debate.

You obviously don't believe that debates are Inherently or innately something that is hateful and I have heard over the last couple of decades. Starting in 1996 when I had my first debate that I organized I heard both from Protestants and Roman Catholics that what I was doing was it was a Mean-spirited thing a hateful thing a bigoted thing.

I Actually had the owner of a Christian bookstore when I dropped posters off for him to hang up. For my very first debate that I organized on the dogmas of Mary between James White and Jerry Manatee X the owner of the bookstore said How dare you and I said, excuse me, and he said in a day and age when we should be linking arms with our Catholic brothers and sisters when the The morality is so dark and evil in our society when abortion and homosexuality are rampant we need to link arms with those that have a lot in common with us and Therefore what you doing.

What you are doing is horrible and I reminded him I said first of all, we do have representatives of both Sides of the issue on at this debate. It is a debate and I said secondly since when is Correcting someone that you believe is an error a hateful act.

We do that all the time with a multitude of other issues.

Why would.

Theology when it which is Really the most important issue of all because eternity hinges on it. Why would that be any different? Well, why would. Why would not correcting someone as long as you are doing it in a loving manner in a compassionate manner and in a humble manner?

Why would that be hate speech? How would you typically respond if you have ever even been told that I don't know but how would you respond to the same kind of Challenge that I received or rebuke or chastisement that I received from that Christian bookstore owner, Matthew.

As a matter of fact in the early Christians in the early church they were debating in x -15 it said after much debate. So the debate is especially if you're aspiring to find out but the beautiful thing is to Jesus Christ God eternal Son prays for unity among his followers and Hopefully that we could have that it's important.

Like you said to be able to I'm hopefully not like Peter said to do. There's any negative or Judgment on the person because God alone sees the heart. Be able to if you find something is Something the Holy Spirit places in your heart the need to.

In the Old Testament I think it's going to continue to happen. So I think it's as long as it's done in that negative way.

Well, I guess I would have to have you clarify what you mean by Unless it's not done in a negative way because obviously there are going to be crucial areas disagreed upon. Let me even back up further and let you know a little bit more about myself.

I'm not a modern-day ecumenist I believe Because the Council of Trent clearly dogmatically declared that my gospel is a false and damning gospel I would have to conclude as a Protestant that the Roman Catholic gospel is a different one and therefore I Do not have an ecumenical Attitude towards my Catholic friends.

I love my Catholic friends many members of my family are still Roman Catholic. In fact the born-again Bible-believing Protestants would be a minority since I was raised Catholic. But I don't think that that attitude is a matter of hate.

I am just basing my views upon what is The the documentable truth in regard to the gospel and since the Church of Rome Has dogmatically defined its gospel as including works that involve merit I obviously cannot embrace Someone who is dogmatically faithful as a Catholic as my brother now I do say that there are many Catholics who are my brothers because they believe in the true gospel.

But that would be in spite of what Rome teaches. I have met many Catholics who are completely unaware of the fact that The Church of Rome does not believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.

They think that's what their own.

Go ahead.

Faith alone if we look at to see what Jesus Christ is no one Survived except by and says that we must prove must. Very good food right well right now right keep the commandment right right now.

You're giving Catholic arguments that would involve a debate today right now on the show. I.

Radically.

Oppose what you're saying right now. I believe that the New Testament is replete with Clear evidence that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, but As far as me believing that you are not my brother in Christ is That something that you would believe is a hateful thing.

Is it something that you believe is bigotry or what have you?

No, it's fine. It's fine. I guess what I meant to say in terms of negative. I'm like I said I also have scripture passages that. Um. That's the reason why we have debates. Yeah, yeah, I know that like I said you said so there's plenty of also.

I.

Get tell me what I meant to say. But by negative who's there already judging and And passing judgment famous. This is where he's not in heaven that he's eternally For allowed to God to see the heart right in terms of negative.

For someone to say okay this particular person is directly in Which I didn't think. The need to repent as John the Baptist Jesus did to believe the good news. All these things that the scripture teaches as well.

So that's what I meant negatively to yeah.

I I had just I just recently had a radio program after the death of Billy Graham. Where we were going. My guest and I Brad Zell who wrote a book about Billy Graham. Billy Graham was actually raised in the Bible Presbyterian Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Where my guest is a member. My guest Brad Zell. And he he and I were just discussing some of the very serious errors in Mr. Graham's teachings involving ecumenism, especially which even led to his declaration that many will be in heaven who never actually knew Jesus Christ or his gospel before leaving this planet.

And Basically, they and in dr. Graham's opinion at least when he was alive on earth, of course was that a Muslim who is is seeking to the best of his ability and Believing to the best of his ability and acting upon those beliefs to the best of his ability.

Was really a Christian and he just didn't realize it. And and and you can mention any other religion for that matter. Buddhist Hindus in even Atheists were implied by dr. Graham, but I never and neither did Brad Zell ever Declare that Billy Graham was not in heaven.

I am assuming he is in heaven even though I had those serious disagreements with him because I know that he well at least I can see from from things that he has preached since the.

1950s.

That he did believe the gospel. I just think that he dangerously Mishandled how we are to proclaim that gospel to the lost. So I I do not make any judgment as to whether he is in heaven or hell and I assume he is in heaven and but anyway now if you could Anthony venia, you're gonna be moderating this debate coming up.

Oh. Why don't you let our listeners know? Why don't you respond to what I said as far as is is it hate or is it bigotry or is it mean-spirited nested to Be acting under the assumption that a Roman Catholic is not my brother in Christ.

Because let me add to that if anybody were to say yes, that is mean-spirited and hateful and bigoted. Well, there's got to be some Group that Roman Catholics or others believe are not going to heaven.

And if they're not going to heaven, does that mean that you are guilty of bigotry or hate speech In believing that they are not going to heaven and telling those persons that they must repent of whatever that religion is.

But if you could just respond to what I said before Anthony.

And what I think we need to understand right off the bat is that both sides have a position and Both sides believe that the other side is wrong. Right now and since we're total eternity, this becomes a very very important matter.

Is the gospel faith alone. Is the gospel faith plus works? plus the sacraments the dividing line. Now what I'm expecting plea from both men. And if they believe these things are true, and if they believe that salvation is contingent upon what they're Going to teach there to be an emphasis on these things now I'm also going to expect and hold both of them to a demeanor of gentleness and a demeanor.

I wouldn't consider. Oh, you can count you can count me out then Anthony. I'm not even paying attention.

What I would what I would say even even though we differ Theologically and and and it's a great divide over that. He's my brother in that he's a human being created in the image of God as are you Chris as are you Bruce as Is every other human being on the planet.

And because we're created in the image of God we have inherent worth and value. We cannot we cannot look down on nose at someone else who does not hold our position and say shame on you. However, and God reveals these most gracious people on the planet.

I definitely think that is well worth debating because the outcome of this could mean someone's soul. Now need to know the truth of the scriptures. Yes, I was. I just thought I'd.

Once again bring up something that that struck me as perhaps Something I disagreed with but but perhaps I'm wrong when you said we should never say shame on you. Well, I think that there is a. That is a case-by-case situation if someone from within the ranks of my church for instance Started declaring some damnable heretical bizarre teaching.

I think that I have every right and duty to say shame on you. I think there's a difference between that and somebody who is raised in and coming from a different background where a more tolerant attitude might be held, but if somebody apostatized.

From.

The truth especially if they are someone in your midst, I think that to selling them shame on you could be a great act of love and an act where rescue is being attempted just as if a parent is saying to a child shame on you for sticking your finger in a Electrical outlet or something like that.

Yeah, I would agree. I mean listen, we have an obligation to judge. We judge those inside the church, right? It's the people outside the church that we're trying to win to Christ. So my question may be for you Chris was would you consider Matthew someone who's inside the church or outside the church?

From what he tried the church. Okay, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say from what he has said. I do not believe the church.

Okay, if he's in if he's outside of the church, well, then we can't judge him, right? We want to win him to Christ if he's inside the church. I'm professing faith in Christ alone for his salvation and Comes off with an aberrant doctrine or a thought then yes, and and after he's been still holds to this position thing.

Yes, we can say hey shame on you. You know the truth, you know better. So I think you know week to week what I'm looking to do. Especially with with these two men because I know Bruce. I don't know Matthew, but in my very brief conversation with him.

It seems like a perfect gentleman. I'm expecting to see passion. I'm expecting to see disagreement. Obviously, that's why we're having a debate. So I'm gonna hold their both their feet to the fire and keeping them both gentle and respectful towards one another.

I can actually say without fear of being guilty of exaggeration or Flattery that Anthony Eugenio is the best moderator I have ever witnessed. Participating in a debate. Okay. In fact, he participated in.

And I and I congratulate you and commend you on the manner with which you Moderated the debate that I orchestrated between dr. Tony Costa and Robertson Janice on the Immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary so you did a great job, but that pastor Bruce Bennett you are the Evangelical Protestant involved in this debate if you could respond to the same line of reasoning that I Introduced into the discussion just a few minutes ago.

Yes, Chris.

God calls us to singular of God. The Bible speaks clearly and loudly. As Believers in Christ we too need to speak clearly and loudly. In love, of course. This debate will be done in love with gentleness and respect the Paul Reasoning with folks whole idea to reason the whole idea to get people to think about a truth claim.

And again, like Anthony said and you had mentioned before Chris, there is a Divergent truth either they're right or we're wrong or vice or a very very Well-designed Opportunity for people who don't know the two different positions to get to see.

Really believes it. So Matthew really believes his position at these divergent views. Hopefully I'll be able to prove it to see that the evidence presented for either side is similar to a trial. I mean we have trials every day in our courts civil courts criminal courts, etc.

Even the US Supreme Court allows both because they both have the end of the day. It's the most efficient are white to firing me to debate could only 90s over there. I remember when I met you that and.

Believe you were still a member of the Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee, weren't you?

If I was yes Church of God. Yes and debate public debate. Wow. I had no idea it was that many. Well, I they're not on YouTube, but I used to do the mock trial club for over a decade and Part of that was so I used to debate.

Yeah, I had many debates with Muslims.

But those were from the back seat of a cab in New York City. As to the fastest way to get to the point where? I was trying to travel but anyway. We are going.

Your mind was open to any student and one of the debates on atheism actually we filled the whole classroom the quite. Interesting debate that's going back. Not good. I'll be.

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Sola Scriptura and the Roman Catholic-Protestant Divide

We are back now with our discussion With Anthony Eugenio co-founder of New York apologetics Bruce Bennett The pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and Matthew Luke Broderick a lay Catholic apologist They're all going to be involved in a debate On Saturday April 14th at 6 30 p .m. At the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and You could get more details About this debate by going to the Word of Truth Church website WOT church .com WOT which stands for word of truth church .com WOT church .com and Anthony Eugenio will be the moderator and Bruce Bennett will be representing the Protestant evangelical or evangelical Protestant side of the debate and Matthew Luke Broderick will be the the Catholic apologist involved in the debate and the debate is on really sola scriptura the Reformation principle that the final and only inerrant and infallible Rule of faith for the church is the Holy Scriptures or are the Holy Scriptures or is the Bible and Obviously the the Roman Catholic Church Disagrees with that in fact of all the solos of the Reformation in Matthew, perhaps you could Confirm or clarify or disagree with me on this but of all the solos of the Reformation is really sola fide and sola scriptura That the Roman Catholic Church more clearly and vociferously disagrees with.

Yes, exactly. That it was not. Exactly this from the beginning we believe. The Magisterium Jesus Christ refers to in Matthew 23 Here to and hold fast to what it taught you from the chair of Moses was an oral teaching.

The oral tradition from the Prophet Elijah we didn't know.

Just just to clarify you understand. Sure, well, I'm not a hundred percent sure but I'm assuming that you understand that Protestants do not believe. That tradition has no place in the life of the church.

It's just that we believe that the scriptures are the only infallible and inerrant authority in the church. Just out of curiosity because you're comparing it with the Old Covenant Magisterium of the Jews.

If you're using that as a as a model for the church. Does it not trouble you that a those very same Jews? Demanded the execution of our Savior Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ himself Refuted and repudiated and condemned some of the traditions that arose.

Using that model that you claim is the appropriate one for the church.

No, I'm saying that the Jews that clearly adhered to the model that you're.

Who added their own traditions that were not God-breathed that were not a part of the Old Covenant Canon. They added their own traditions. We never see any clear evidence that Jesus Christ agreed with any of those Uncanonical unbiblical Traditions and and those traditions actually led The Jews to want Christ to die for blasphemy.

Yes, of course. I know that.

Yeah, yeah, because the matter of fact Jesus the 23 adhere authority outside of Holy Scripture. So he didn't can tell he condemned all tradition. He said to listen to what they do what they teach but don't of any tradition, right?

But it was the majority of those in leadership Were the ones crying out for his death. I know that many of the average Jews Were not although they were still a minority those who were not.

But.

The Pharisees and the Sadducees certainly were among the leaders of those crying out for his execution.

Right. I know we have Nicodemus and and others. Yeah, well obviously a lot of this what you're saying is going to be a part of the debate.

But I would I would radically disagree that it was not God-breathed Revelation in the New Covenant that brought an end to the Practice of circumcision as a requirement as we see in Peter's revelation and so on.

So but that obviously will be those will be things that will be involved in the content of the debate coming up. One more question. Before I go to Anthony and Bruce having been a Roman Catholic myself and having participated in Roman Catholic debates as the orchestrator of them I only had one debate as I mentioned as a participant or as a debater I should say.

And it was only a radio debate. But in all these years Going all the way back to my Childhood in the Catholic Church as an altar boy until today I have met many different kinds of Roman Catholics. They not only will disagree with Protestants on varying levels of Severity But they will disagree with each other on varying levels of severity.

How can you as a what will. First of all perhaps I'm Mischaracterizing you but let me ask you. Are you one who would follow the the modern Catholic catechism in regard to?

Ecumenist.

Relations or ecumenical relations with Protestants as well as Jews and Muslims. As the as Vatican to opened up the door for this and which is Included in your your catechism. How can you reconcile that attitude?

With the Council of Trent who declared an anathema on people like me and Bruce and Anthony. For believing in a gospel that is not the gospel of Rome.

About that, but I know that the church similar to what Christ said he probably wants us to pray. And the church has always believed from the first day until now that it's only by the blood of Jesus Christ of heaven have been opened.

But I don't everyone. Each person each person should give to each person according to one's conduct. So it allows for the fact that who are ignorant and who are not aware Who will be Leslie chastised as opposed to those who know and don't do the will of God?

Allow it to it open that way to allow God to be the judge of each. I think we have to just remember that Jesus Christ will get to each and every person each and every person According to one's conduct, so we don't know the what actually what I was asking though.