March 12, 2018 Show with Anthony Uvenio, Bruce Bennett, and Matthew Luke Broderick on “Theological Debates: Hate Speech or Love Speech?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

So one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now, here's our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens

iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 12th day

of March 2018.

And we have a topic today that is obviously near and dear to my heart because

Anyone who knows anything about Chris Arntz and and iron sharpens iron radio knows

that back in 1996 I began

orchestrating annually Live theological debates on Long Island, New York between

dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and a host of other Host

of Roman Catholic Apologists who were his opponents in these debates

on a whole host of issues ranging from the Marian dogmas to the

papacy to the priesthood to Purgatory to the Apocrypha and many other issues

that separate Roman Catholics from evangelical Protestants and

our Reformation forefathers.

But.

Today we are going to be discussing The theme theological debates hate speech or

love speech.

All these years that I have conducted these live theological debates I have

Repeatedly heard that what I was doing was a horrible thing That this is hate speech

and so on which always puzzled me because we had members of both

Evangelical Protestantism and Roman Catholicism Participating in the events, so I'm not sure how They

could view it as a hate speech.

Event.

But we're going to be getting more involved into the details of this and to see what our guests have to say.

Obviously we are assuming that since all three of my guests are involved in an upcoming debate.

They don't view debates intrinsically or in general as hate speech.

But first let me welcome to iron sharpens iron radio a returning guest Anthony Eugenio who's co

-founder of New York apologetics.

It's great to have you back on the program Anthony Eugenio.

Thanks, Chris.

I really appreciate it.

Look forward to diving into the topic and.

Learning some new stuff as well.

Yes, and if anybody wants to look up the organization where Anthony Eugenio

Presides as a director go to New York apologetics calm and those words are spelled out

New York Apologetics calm.

We also have joining us pastor Bruce Bennett.

Who is the pastor at word of truth word of truth Church in?

Farmingville Long Island, New York.

It's great to have you back on the program pastor Bruce.

Hey Chris, always a pleasure to be with you.

Thanks for having me.

And why don't you just quickly tell our listeners a summary of.

Word of truth Church church started 2009.

It belong to

the Evie free.

We got the blessing to do a church plant in that year.

I didn't agree with the pre -millennial position of evangelical free.

So we Became a non -denominational

Continuationist in our

pneumatology

and a very hymn to be.

Ethically.

Evangelical.

Church serving so

pastor Bruce is a Calvinist pastor who is a Continuationist

and that believes that contemporary music is Appropriate in the worship service and he's also the only

Calvinist pastor.

I know of that excommunicated himself.

And how we have Finally to join us for the very first time ever on iron sharpens

iron Matthew Broderick.

I'm so excited to have somebody of your Worldwide fame on the program and I must say that

although I loved your performance in the producers.

I did prefer Gene Wilder's.

Well.

Matthew Luke Broderick is a lay Catholic Apollo Apologist and he is

going to be Debating one of the other guests that I just announced pastor

Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville Long Island, New York.

And Why don't you tell us?

Matthew

what the theme

of this

debate is and

that will be

Saturday April 14th 630 p .m.

Eastern Time at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and if anybody wants more

details including directions You can go to WOT church .com

WOT which stands for Word of Truth Church.

Calm and tell us briefly Matthew how

you got the bug to be involved in Catholic apologetics where you raised

Roman Catholic.

To begin with I usually ask my first -time guests About their

spiritual journeys and but by the way, I think that everybody on this program may have been raised Roman Catholic.

I was.

Were you Bruce?

Yeah, and how about you Anthony?

Yes with the name like Euvenio I would be shocked if it was anything else.

And So Matthew were you raised to Roman Catholic?

Let's proof right there that you were raised.

I just drawn.

Being the most,

you know.

Diet and rose.

Jesus thing.

And from what

I recall from our conversation beforehand.

You've been in some level involved in Catholic apologetics for 15 years.

Yes, yes, I wanted

to get it from

her for a few members of my family.

It was about

Wandering and

wandering

the next

day.

I got about

500 emails.

That time on

I guess for the last time to understand

scripture and with the church fathers toward him.

Thing like that so and I understand that you are.

You are the one that actually contacted pastor Bruce to participate in a debate.

Yes, I was.

I enjoy really enjoy watching debates.

Hearing both sides trying to pray to be open to and I was really inspired by Bruce and Christian

and their love for Christ.

The love for Holy Scripture.

And I just wanted to be able to present a great job with

Salvation justification things like that, right?

Enough to allow me the opportunity.

Well before I forget I do want to let our listeners know that this Wednesday My

guest is going to be dr. Tony Costa who is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist

Seminary.

He also is a former Roman Catholic.

When I say also, I mean just like me and Anthony Eugenio and Bruce Bennett not

Matthew Luke Broderick who is still a Roman Catholic, but Anthony you Tony Costa

is going to be reviewing a debate that I had on

British radio.

The unbelievable program hosted by Justin Briarley there in the UK back

right before Reformation Day, I believe it was of 2017.

I Was invited to participate in a discussion With a Roman

Catholic who was formerly Protestant and I being a former Catholic who converted

to biblical Reformational Protestantism they wanted us both on to give our stories.

I had no idea that I was going to be debating.

Mr Bogle when it turned into a debate which was interesting because that was my very first debate that I actually

participated in as a debater and of course, it wasn't

Quite as structured as a public moderated debate would be with with the specific

timing and so on For each segment.

This was more of a free -formed debate in a discussion on the radio.

But anyway, we're going to be playing that debate slash discussion that I had with

James Bogle who is a Roman Catholic attorney or as they call them barristers there in the UK

and He's also the head of a Roman Catholic

Apostolate there in the UK and If I thought it was quite an interesting discussion slash debate,

and I hope that you enjoyed as well.

And we're gonna have Tony Costa review that.

Event.

This Wednesday God willing.

So 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, so please mark that on your calendar.

But I'm gonna give our listeners our email address if they would like to join us on the air of the question of their own.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of

residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Before I go to Anthony and Bruce, I'm going to go directly to

Matthew Luke Broderick today with a question about debates in and of themselves.

Obviously Matthew since you contacted pastor Bruce Bennett to debate him

you actually Initiated the the challenge or the invitation to debate.

You obviously don't believe that debates are Inherently or innately something that is

hateful and I have heard over the last couple of decades.

Starting in 1996 when I had my first debate that I organized

I heard both from Protestants and Roman Catholics that what I was doing was it was a Mean

-spirited thing a hateful thing a bigoted thing.

I Actually had the owner of a Christian bookstore when I dropped posters off for him to hang up.

For my very first debate that I organized on the dogmas of Mary between James White and

Jerry Manatee X the owner of the bookstore said How dare you

and I said, excuse me, and he said in a day and age when we should be linking arms

with our Catholic brothers and sisters when the The morality is so dark and

evil in our society when abortion and homosexuality are rampant

we need to link arms with those that have a lot in common with us and Therefore

what you doing.

What you are doing is horrible and I reminded him I said first of all, we do have representatives of both

Sides of the issue on at this debate.

It is a debate and I said secondly since when is Correcting someone that

you believe is an error a hateful act.

We do that all the time with a multitude of other issues.

Why would.

Theology when it which is Really the most important issue of all because eternity

hinges on it.

Why would that be any different?

Well, why would.

Why would not correcting someone as long as you are doing it in a loving manner in a compassionate manner and

in a humble manner?

Why would that be hate speech?

How would you typically respond if you have ever even been told that I don't know but how would you respond

to the same kind of Challenge that I received or rebuke or

chastisement that I received from that Christian bookstore owner, Matthew.

As a matter of

fact in the early Christians in the early church they were debating in x -15 it said after much debate.

So the debate is especially if you're aspiring to find out but

the beautiful thing is to Jesus Christ God eternal Son prays for unity

among his followers and Hopefully that we could have that it's important.

Like you said to be able to I'm hopefully not like Peter said to

do.

There's any negative or

Judgment on the person because God alone sees the heart.

Be able to if you find something is Something the Holy Spirit places in your

heart the need to.

In the Old Testament I think it's going to continue to happen.

So I think it's as long as it's done in that negative way.

Well, I guess I would have to have you clarify what you mean by Unless it's not done in a negative way because obviously there are

going to be crucial areas disagreed upon.

Let me even back up further and let you know a little bit more about myself.

I'm not a modern -day ecumenist I believe Because the

Council of Trent clearly dogmatically declared that my gospel is a

false and damning gospel I would have to conclude as a Protestant that the Roman Catholic

gospel is a different one and therefore I Do not have an ecumenical

Attitude towards my Catholic friends.

I love my Catholic friends many members of my family are still Roman Catholic.

In fact the born -again Bible -believing Protestants would be a minority since I was raised Catholic.

But I don't think that that attitude is a matter of hate.

I am just basing my views upon what is The the

documentable truth in regard to the gospel and since the Church of Rome

Has dogmatically defined its gospel as including works that involve merit I

obviously cannot embrace Someone who is dogmatically faithful as a Catholic as my brother now

I do say that there are many Catholics who are my brothers because they believe in the true gospel.

But that would be in spite of what Rome teaches.

I have met many Catholics who are completely unaware of the fact that The

Church of Rome does not believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.

They think that's what their own.

Go ahead.

Faith

alone if

we look at to

see what Jesus Christ

is no one Survived except by and says

that we must prove

must.

Very good food right well right now right keep the commandment right right now.

You're giving Catholic arguments that would involve a debate today right now on the show.

I.

Radically.

Oppose what you're saying right now.

I believe that the New Testament is replete with Clear evidence that we are saved by grace

alone through faith alone in Christ alone, but As far as me believing that you are not

my brother in Christ is That something that you would believe is a hateful thing.

Is it something that you believe is bigotry or what have you?

No, it's fine.

It's fine.

I guess what I meant to say in terms of negative.

I'm like I said I also have scripture passages that.

Um.

That's the reason why we have debates.

Yeah, yeah, I know that like I said you said so there's plenty of also.

I.

Get tell me what I meant to say.

But by negative who's there

already judging and And passing judgment famous.

This is where he's not in heaven that he's eternally

For allowed to God to see the heart right in terms of negative.

For someone to say okay this particular person is directly in

Which I didn't think.

The need to repent as John the Baptist Jesus did to believe the good news.

All these things that the scripture teaches as well.

So that's what I meant negatively to yeah.

I I had just I just recently had a radio program after the death of Billy

Graham.

Where we were going.

My guest and I Brad Zell who wrote a book about Billy Graham.

Billy Graham was actually raised in the Bible Presbyterian Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Where my guest is a member.

My guest Brad Zell.

And he he and I were just discussing some of the very serious errors in Mr. Graham's

teachings involving ecumenism, especially which even led to his

declaration that many will be in heaven who never

actually knew Jesus Christ or his gospel before leaving this planet.

And Basically, they and in dr. Graham's opinion at least when he was

alive on earth, of course was that a Muslim who is

is seeking to the best of his ability and Believing to the best of his ability and

acting upon those beliefs to the best of his ability.

Was really a Christian and he just didn't realize it.

And and and you can mention any other religion for that matter.

Buddhist Hindus in even Atheists were implied by dr. Graham, but I never

and neither did Brad Zell ever Declare that Billy Graham was not in heaven.

I am assuming he is in heaven even though I had those serious disagreements with him because I know that he well at least

I can see from from things that he has preached since the.

1950s.

That he did believe the gospel.

I just think that he dangerously Mishandled how we are to

proclaim that gospel to the lost.

So I I do not make any judgment as to whether he is in heaven or hell and I assume

he is in heaven and but anyway now if you could

Anthony venia, you're gonna be moderating this debate coming up.

Oh.

Why don't you let our listeners know?

Why don't you respond to what I said as far as is is it hate or is it

bigotry or is it mean -spirited nested to Be acting under the assumption that a

Roman Catholic is not my brother in Christ.

Because let me add to that if anybody were to say yes, that is mean -spirited and hateful and bigoted.

Well, there's got to be some Group that Roman Catholics or others believe are not

going to heaven.

And if they're not going to heaven, does that mean that you are guilty of bigotry or hate speech

In believing that they are not going to heaven and telling those persons that they must repent of whatever that religion is.

But if you could just respond to what I said before Anthony.

And what I think we need to understand right off the bat is that both sides have a

position and Both sides believe that the other side is wrong.

Right now and since we're total

eternity, this becomes a very very important matter.

Is the gospel faith alone.

Is the gospel faith plus works? plus

the sacraments the

dividing line.

Now what I'm expecting plea from

both men.

And if they believe these things are true, and if they believe that salvation is contingent

upon what they're Going to teach there to

be an emphasis on these things now I'm also going to expect and hold both of them to

a demeanor of gentleness and a demeanor.

I wouldn't consider.

Oh, you can count you can count me out then Anthony.

I'm not even paying attention.

What I would what I would say even even though we differ Theologically and and and

it's a great divide over that.

He's my brother in that he's a human being created in the image of God as are you Chris as are you Bruce

as Is every other human being on the planet.

And because we're created in the image of God we have inherent worth and value.

We cannot we cannot look down on nose at someone else who does not hold our position

and say shame on you.

However, and God reveals

these most gracious people on the planet.

I definitely think that is well worth debating

because the outcome of this could mean someone's soul.

Now need to know the truth of the scriptures.

Yes, I was.

I just thought I'd.

Once again bring up something that that struck me as perhaps

Something I disagreed with but but perhaps I'm wrong when you said we should never say shame on you.

Well, I think that there is a.

That is a case -by -case situation if someone from within the ranks of my church for instance

Started declaring some damnable heretical bizarre teaching.

I think that I have every right and duty to say shame on you.

I think there's a difference between that and somebody who is raised in and coming from a

different background where a more tolerant attitude might be held, but if somebody apostatized.

From.

The truth especially if they are someone in your midst, I think that to selling them shame on you

could be a great act of love and an act where rescue is being attempted just as

if a parent is saying to a child shame on you for sticking your finger

in a Electrical outlet or something like that.

Yeah, I would agree.

I mean listen, we have an obligation to judge.

We judge those inside the church, right?

It's the people outside the church that we're trying to win to Christ.

So my question may be for you Chris was would you consider Matthew someone who's inside the church or outside the church?

From what he tried the church.

Okay, I'm sorry.

I was just gonna say from what he has said.

I do not believe the church.

Okay, if he's in if he's outside of the church, well, then we can't judge him, right?

We want to win him to Christ if he's inside the church.

I'm professing faith in Christ alone for his salvation and Comes off with an aberrant doctrine or a

thought then yes, and and after he's been still holds to this position

thing.

Yes, we can say hey shame on you.

You know the truth, you know better.

So I think you know week to week what I'm

looking to do.

Especially with with these two men because I know Bruce.

I don't know Matthew, but in my very brief conversation with him.

It seems like a perfect gentleman.

I'm expecting to see passion.

I'm expecting to see disagreement.

Obviously, that's why we're having a debate.

So I'm gonna hold their both their feet to the fire and keeping them both gentle and respectful towards one another.

I can actually say without fear of being guilty of exaggeration or

Flattery that Anthony Eugenio is the best moderator I have ever

witnessed.

Participating in a debate.

Okay.

In fact, he participated in.

And I and I congratulate you and commend you on the manner with which you Moderated the debate that I

orchestrated between dr. Tony Costa and Robertson Janice on the Immaculate

conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary so you did a great job, but that

pastor Bruce Bennett you are the Evangelical Protestant involved in this debate if you could

respond to the same line of reasoning that I Introduced into the

discussion just a few minutes ago.

Yes, Chris.

God

calls us to singular

of God.

The Bible speaks clearly and loudly.

As Believers in Christ we too need to speak clearly

and loudly.

In love, of course.

This debate will be done in love with gentleness and

respect

the

Paul

Reasoning with folks

whole idea to reason the whole idea to get people to think about a truth claim.

And again, like Anthony said and you had mentioned before Chris, there is a Divergent truth

either they're

right or we're

wrong or vice or a very very

Well -designed Opportunity for people who don't know the two different

positions

to get to

see.

Really believes it.

So Matthew really believes his

position at these divergent views.

Hopefully

I'll be able to prove it to see

that the evidence presented for either side is similar to a trial.

I mean we have trials every day in our courts civil courts criminal courts, etc.

Even the US Supreme Court allows both because they both have

the end of the day.

It's the most efficient are white

to firing me to debate

could only

90s over there.

I remember when I met you that and.

Believe you were still a member of the Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee, weren't you?

If I

was

yes

Church

of God.

Yes and debate

public debate.

Wow.

I had no idea it was

that many.

Well, I they're not on

YouTube, but I used to do the mock trial

club for over a decade and Part of that was so I

used to debate.

Yeah, I had many debates with Muslims.

But those were from the back seat of a cab in New York City.

As to the fastest way to get to the point where?

I was trying to travel but anyway.

We are going.

Your mind was open to any student and one of the debates on atheism actually we filled the whole classroom

the quite.

Interesting debate that's going back.

Not good.

I'll be.

All right, we're going to our first break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris

ar n z n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

We'll be right back.

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We are back now with our discussion With Anthony Eugenio co -founder of New York

apologetics Bruce Bennett The pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and

Matthew Luke Broderick a lay Catholic apologist They're all going to be involved in

a debate On Saturday April 14th at 6 30 p .m. At the Word of Truth Church in

Farmingville, Long Island, New York and You could get more details

About this debate by going to the Word of Truth Church website WOT church .com

WOT which stands for word of truth church .com WOT church .com and

Anthony Eugenio will be the moderator and Bruce Bennett will be representing the

Protestant evangelical or evangelical Protestant side of the debate and

Matthew Luke Broderick will be the the Catholic apologist involved in the debate and the debate is

on really sola scriptura the Reformation principle that the

final and only inerrant and infallible

Rule of faith for the church is the Holy Scriptures or are the Holy Scriptures

or is the Bible and Obviously the the Roman Catholic Church

Disagrees with that in fact of all the solos of the Reformation

in Matthew, perhaps you could Confirm or clarify or disagree with me on this but of

all the solos of the Reformation is really sola fide and sola scriptura That the Roman

Catholic Church more clearly and vociferously disagrees with.

Yes, exactly.

That it was not.

Exactly this from the beginning we believe.

The Magisterium

Jesus Christ

refers to in Matthew 23 Here to and hold fast to what it taught you from the chair of Moses was an oral teaching.

The oral tradition from the Prophet Elijah we

didn't know.

Just just to clarify you understand.

Sure, well, I'm not a hundred percent sure but I'm assuming that you understand that Protestants do not believe.

That tradition has no place in the life of the church.

It's just that we believe that the scriptures are the only infallible and inerrant

authority in the church.

Just out of curiosity because you're comparing it with the Old Covenant Magisterium of

the Jews.

If you're using that as a as a model for the church.

Does it not trouble you that a those very same Jews? Demanded

the execution of our Savior Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ himself

Refuted and repudiated and condemned some of the traditions that arose.

Using that model that you claim is the appropriate one for the church.

No, I'm

saying that

the Jews that clearly adhered to the model that you're.

Who added their own traditions that were not God -breathed that were not a part of the Old Covenant

Canon.

They added their own traditions.

We never see any clear evidence that Jesus Christ agreed with any of those

Uncanonical unbiblical Traditions and and those traditions actually led The

Jews to want Christ to die for blasphemy.

Yes, of course.

I know that.

Yeah, yeah, because the

matter of fact Jesus the 23

adhere authority outside of Holy Scripture.

So he didn't can tell he condemned all tradition.

He said to listen to what they do what they teach but don't

of any tradition,

right?

But it was the majority of those in leadership Were the ones crying out

for his death.

I know that many of the average Jews Were not although they were

still a minority those who were not.

But.

The Pharisees and the Sadducees certainly were among the leaders of those crying out for his execution.

Right.

I know we have Nicodemus and

and others.

Yeah,

well obviously a lot of this what you're saying is going to be a part of the debate.

But I would I would radically disagree that it was not God -breathed Revelation in the New

Covenant that brought an end to the Practice of circumcision as a requirement as we see in

Peter's revelation and so on.

So but that obviously will be those will be things that will be involved in the

content of the debate coming up.

One more question.

Before I go to Anthony and Bruce having been a Roman Catholic myself and having

participated in Roman Catholic debates as the orchestrator of them

I only had one debate as I mentioned as a participant or as a debater I should say.

And it was only a radio debate.

But in all these years Going all the way back to my

Childhood in the Catholic Church as an altar boy until today I have met many

different kinds of Roman Catholics.

They not only will disagree with Protestants on varying

levels of Severity But

they will disagree with each other on varying levels of severity.

How can you as a what will.

First of all perhaps I'm Mischaracterizing you but let me ask you.

Are you one who would follow the the modern Catholic catechism in regard to?

Ecumenist.

Relations or ecumenical relations with Protestants as well as Jews and Muslims.

As the as Vatican to opened up the door for this and which is Included in your

your catechism.

How can you reconcile that attitude?

With the Council of Trent who declared an anathema on people like me and Bruce and

Anthony.

For believing in a gospel that is not the gospel of Rome.

About that, but I know that the church similar to what Christ said he

probably wants us to pray.

And the church has always believed from the first day until now that it's only by the blood of Jesus Christ of

heaven have been opened.

But I don't everyone.

Each person each person should give to each person according to one's conduct.

So it allows for the fact that who are ignorant

and who are not aware Who will be Leslie chastised as opposed to those who know

and don't do the will of God?

Allow it to it open that way to allow God to be the judge of each.

I think we have to just remember that Jesus Christ will get to each and every person each and every person According to one's conduct, so we don't know

the what actually what I was asking though.

Is the stark contrast between the Council of Trent and Vatican to that's really what I'm

talking about.

How can you reconcile those two extremes in your mind and keep in mind.

As you know The Catholic Church was executing not only torturing but executing people

in the ages when not only prior but Following the Council of Trent

for these disagreements.

They weren't looked upon as brotherly disagreements.

They were looked upon as something that was damnable.

And then you haven't.

That's true.

It's happened.

It happens having both people book out by Rodney

Stark.

Well a lot of

Protestant.

Historians and theologians are apostates and leftists and liberals, but.

And keep in mind Protestants don't.

Protestants don't declare that they have an infallible magisterium though.

That is a Very serious difference between any atrocity that occurred at the hands of

Protestants.

But anyway, we have to go to our midway break.

We have to.

You can respond when we return.

We have to go to a 12 -minute.

Yeah, we will take your response when we return because I have to go to a break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with our guests after this 12 -minute break.

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Before I return to our interview with Anthony Eugenio Bruce Bennett and Matthew Luke Broderick I just have a

couple more announcements to make.

First of all the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is

having a debate on.

The.

Sola Scriptura issue the one of the watchwords of the Reformation that Scripture alone is the

sole infallible authority for the church today.

That is going to be held on Saturday April 14th at 6 30 p .m At the Word of Truth Church

in Farmingville, Long Island.

The participants or the debaters involved in that debate are Pastor

Bruce Bennett representing historic Protestantism and Matthew Luke Broderick

representing Roman Catholicism and Anthony Eugenio of New York apologetics is

the moderator or will be the moderator.

If you want more details on this debate go to WOT church .com that's

WOT which stands for Word of Truth church .com and That that will have

all the information that you need.

Also coming up in April from the 13th through the 15th at the First Christian

Reform Church of Byron Center, Michigan the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having

the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology and That includes Daniel Aiken,

Richard Gaffin, Daniel Hyde, Conrad M. Bayway, who is the most powerful preacher I've ever heard in my life, Richard

Phillips, Jonathan Master, David Murray, and Scott Oliphant.

That will also be held April 27th through the 29th at the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn

Mawr, Pennsylvania so all of my listeners who are closer to

Pennsylvania will be able to attend both the debate on Long Island that Bruce Bennett and Matthew

Luke Broderick will be having and Also attend the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology and of course, it's

named Philadelphia Conference only out of a sentimental Attempt to pay

tribute to Dr. James Montgomery Boyce, the late James Montgomery Boyce, who for many

years conducted the Philadelphia Conference of Reform Theology or on Reform Theology at the 10th Presbyterian

Church in Philadelphia.

And now it is no longer being held there and is being held at different locations and states.

So they call it Philadelphia Conference even though It's not being held in that city anymore.

If you want more details go to Alliance net org.

Alliance net org.

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And before the break Matthew Luke Broderick, you were responding to my question where I was

basically trying to get you to Explain how you can reconcile the

harshness of Trent With the openness of Vatican to and the modern -day Catholic

catechism which makes Even some more conservative and especially

traditionalist Catholics very uncomfortable.

If you could explain how those two things can be reconciled in a church that has an infallible magisterium

over time that.

That God does speak through his church Jesus Christ is but reference to

action

ignorance.

Will be so.

I think that could be at the time I

hope to say that at the time of Trent and to

understand Luke 12 a little better.

I just had a question for you.

I'm sorry Chris.

I was just wondering sure you mentioned before but the two commands of God.

Yeah, what.

No.

What I was saying is that people who were donating people who are donating to my show should never

Disobey the scriptures in regard to supporting not only your church, but your family.

I mean the.

So the point for those who don't do that.

Well, there's a difference between being saved and.

Or being obedient and Even the best of Christians at times In

fact more often than we can count are disobedient and this would be just an area.

I'm not saying that somebody who is not a member of a local church is automatically damned, but they are

in very serious Sin they're they're rebelling against God.

By by seeking to remain independent and not have an authority over them and I think that all three of the

Protestants here Believe that the local elders of a Bible -believing church

are the only authority outside of Scripture.

Where we are to be submissive.

And let me ask pastor Bruce.

Would you agree with that?

And Anthony.

Yes, sir, I would I would hold to the autonomy of the local

church.

One should be right.

And yeah, there are people who.

Who who reject.

The high view the very very high view of the church and the necessity of church that the Roman Catholic

Church claims who run way too far in the other direction.

To a point of being very heretical and dangerous.

That don't see any significance for the church today at all and We would

join you Matthew and saying that that is definitely unbiblical and

very serious.

The difference we would have with Church of Rome is the necessity that is involved

in the administration of the sacraments and so on.

Which is that which is actually I guess a topic for another debate because I Have been

involved in a number of debates with Roman Catholics who are tenaciously

defending a Sacerdotal or a sacramental understanding of salvation and yet where the

modern -day catechism is saying that Muslims Were adore the same true God as we

do.

That leaves us baffled as to why someone would be on the one hand Clinging

tenaciously to the requirement of Roman Catholic sacraments and then saying that not only

Muslims Buddhists and Hindus, but even atheists on at times if they're living according to the light they

have or something will enter into heaven, but

So that's why you believe that Roman Catholic Church has the understanding of invincible ignorance.

Where to me to me the sacraments,

but I was informed before about just what

give Tithing.

Is that something they may be lost.

Is it possible?

I thought it was.

It doesn't matter what they do even if they're not submissive to the elders.

Oh, well, yeah, I think their faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Are you perhaps them?

Yeah, you perhaps are going under the assumption that all Protestants agree with modern -day

evangelicals who are heretics who Believe in something that has been nicknamed

Easy believism or cheap grace where you can go up The aisle of a church

responding to an invitation or an altar call as they call them and Read a prayer or recite a prayer

and then live like Satan himself for the rest of your life.

And you're still going to heaven.

We who are theologically reformed.

Not only do we believe that that teaching is absent from any Reformation

figure of of any note But more importantly it's absent from the scriptures.

We don't believe that people who are living in a way that's

surrendered to sin and are unrepentantly living their entire

lives as if they were Disciples of Satan.

We don't believe that those people will be in heaven one day, but that does not mean.

Those who do have faith in Jesus Christ and his blood alone and but who aren't Submissive in terms of like who don't go to a church and who don't

just who don't tithe.

Will they be saved based on their faith alone in Jesus Christ as their Savior rather than submitting to an elders of a certain church?

Oh, I'll also have Bruce and Anthony reply to that.

But like I said earlier, it would be a case -by -case situation I believe that there are genuinely born -again people

Who have serious very serious and dangerous flaws and sins in their lives.

That will be in heaven, but that doesn't mean that all of those who profess Christ who are living that

way without membership in any church That doesn't mean that that they are

all Saved or born again that there could be many of them and perhaps there are probably are most of

them that are not saved.

That are not regenerate just as Jesus Christ When he

appeared to the soul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, it's interesting how even though Jesus

Had already been crucified and rose from the dead and ascended into heaven was seated at

the right hand of the Father even though he was not physically on the planet Earth when

soul of Tarsus was on the road to Damascus when he When he knocked

Saul off his feet And and cried out to him from heaven.

He said Saul Saul.

Why do you persecute me?

And I think that that shows a very serious Connection that that God has

between himself and the church.

So therefore if somebody has a flippant attitude towards the church, they have no interest in being

connected to Fellowship with the church or to being submissive to the elders of the church.

They don't love the church.

I think that reflects that they have a very serious problem in the way they view God and that and a very serious problem

in Their affection toward God, but if a pastor Bruce perhaps you want to add to that.

One can be justified can't be

properly

sanctification

justly be Truly

justified word of

Baptists table

Would

be to the have to be under that

discipline continue to receive for example the Lord's table to be in good standing.

And and all that and God uses

that all to us

being God's child received

either the Lord's table or you know.

At the fellowship or even the teaching of the church that

receive the gift of faith Was included

the assembly of a truly

been justified and a

pretty good sign that they probably never knew the Lord to begin with.

And Anthony.

Yeah, no, I think this is a very very interesting question in light of Roman Catholic doctrine if a

Protestant has faith in Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of his sins.

And is disciplined by his pastor or he would be in sin.

But this is the point of having a Savior.

Trusting in Jesus for the covering of your sins not so that it's a license to sin.

But in the event you do you you have a Savior which guarantees your entrance into heaven.

We have a definite atonement enter heaven

many of my relatives.

Unfortunately, they make Holy Communion.

They generally don't go to church and then they make confirmation.

And then unfortunately at well some some of them get married so they

they go to church but yet when they die.

The priest stands up in front of everyone and says well, they're in a much better place now.

And these people had really honestly no faith.

They went through the motions and the priest now stands up and at their

funeral says not only

should we pray for them?

We should pray to them.

So now these are people who I know who truly didn't have faith in Jesus they lived their life.

Basically self -centered trusting in Jesus as their Savior trusting in their good

works.

And now the priest gives assurance to everyone listening that they're in a better place to

Matthew would be.

With the Roman Catholic who does the sacraments?

Who doesn't really go to church?

Go to heaven to be honest that forgot to decide but I

know as a Catholic alone.

But it was available

for all to God James for first 21st Corinthians 13 Even as all faith, but

has not loved Jesus says if you wish to enter into life If you break them

to confess our sins first John 1 9 were to for

a priest whose

church we actually pray for the soul.

Right yet.

And.

And of course Anthony.

I'm of course Anthony.

I'm sure it's very interesting.

Anthony.

I'm sure you would agree though that there are a lot of Evangelical pastors that would do the same kind of thing.

Just not to offend the The surviving loved ones of the deceased they might say

all kinds of ridiculous things at a funeral.

To give them comfort.

Wrongly, you know.

We believe uncle Bill is in heaven because you know of this or that or that the other thing.

So, I mean that's not the exclusive backyard of the Roman Catholic Church to do that.

But one thing I can't right.

No, I agree.

I'm just saying in light of the question if if if a Protestant had faith in

Jesus, would he be able to get into heaven.

And.

Again, she would be asked when

it's.

Oh, yeah, exactly.

I told I know I totally understand.

I just want to hear clear with the announcement saying there's a true commandment that God commands.

It must be so as opposed to faith alone.

This is something that must also be done like to you know to you know to.

So that it we must have faith.

We must the commandments of God Jesus Christ.

It's God's grace.

We just have to cooperate it with and if we break the commandments we have to confess our sins.

We have to turn away from sin.

We have to lead a life

where Jesus says we

must so.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Please forgive me if I ever become across the disrespectful or anything.

I apologize.

Oh, not at all.

Not at all.

I you know, and I wouldn't disagree with you We.

As a Christian, I believe that True possession possession of true faith will automatically

probation.

Understanding and correct me if I'm wrong

is on their works in order to get into heaven.

I truly don't believe it because we are

saved by grace.

Truth is a judgment in

Talks about Revelation Matthew 16 1 according to

one's works to in one sense

produce that good food.

If we don't if we don't show mercy

Jesus is blessed or the mercy requirement that we

need that.

We just know that we must.

Like Luke 11, you just know that

we have to put God's Word into

practice,

you

know,

Jesus says section of life not.

You know, it's just something for everyone.

It's just that we need to cooperate like that's why I think you know To

John be from the wrath to

come and he said what must we

do?

What must we give to the needy you must?

Not take advantage of your brothers.

I mean,

so this right.

Well the the huge difference though would be that the Council of Trent.

Specifically condemns with an anathema those that believe that good works are

Only a fruit or evidence of this faith that justifies.

They the Council of Trent clearly believes that works are meritorious not

that they alone Earn salvation the blood of Christ is the Church of Rome

would affirm is absolutely essential.

But they the Council of Trent which was which is dogmatic and is not subject to the whims of

modern bishops and popes even The Council of Trent

clearly states dogmatically that works cooperate with the grace of God to

actually save someone and make them worthy of heaven and

The Protestants.

So do we.

Yeah, well that's just.

Everyone should we judge according to works and for those who did not show mercy to those who did not show kindness.

But if we don't produce that good fruit.

If you know, you just said if you don't well the like I said

that there's a big this is there's a chasm of difference.

Between believing that those works are a required evidence and

fruit and believing that they actually contribute to the death of

Christ in order to save men the latter of which Bible -believing Protestants find

abhorrent and Damning because we are.

Because in a statement and a belief like that You are saying Jesus's death on Calvary is not

sufficient.

That we must do something to earn Salvation in addition to the

treasury of merit that we Are allegedly getting benefit from of the works of Christ

Mary and the Saints and our in our own works.

But there's a difference between the works being in evidence and them being

necessary requirements to merit eternal life or increase the grace that.

That.

Enables us to enter heaven.

And James never says in his epistle That works are in any way involved

meritoriously in our Our gaining or increasing grace to be saved.

It's just saying that faith without works is dead and that's true.

Has not loved who did not produce love.

It's useless, right?

John the Baptist said that if you do not produce to the Catholic Church

understand that

if we don't

to your

neighbor God may not show mercy to you.

Matthew's, you know, it's Jesus's.

For those who do not show mercy.

Not everything will automatically

flow.

Not always ask for change, right?

And that's

why we believe.

That just as the Judaizers insisted on something to be added to faith

Were condemned by Paul as being anathematized and having a false gospel.

That is no gospel at all.

That that one thing that's the requirement of circumcision made Paul

recoil with disgust and he condemned that false gospel of the Judaizers, so we

are just trying to be consistent with any religion that requires works as

Meritorious not as evidence alone, which we believe that they must be they must

be.

There they a good tree will bear good fruit and a bad tree will bear bad fruit.

Right.

Right. We have to go to our

final break.

I would.

Yeah, if you could Anthony respond when we after the final break because we just have to go to our final break.

Okay, no problem.

If anybody likes to join us now is your time to join us with a question at Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE radio

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively Useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because.

Everyone needs a pastor.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Where am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in our guests today.

Have been and will continue to be Anthony Eugenio who is the

founder or co -founder of? New York apologetics Pastor Bruce

Bennett who is the pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and

Matthew Luke Broderick a lay Catholic apologist.

All three of these individuals are going to be involved in a debate on Saturday April 14th at 6 30

p .m.

At the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville Anthony Eugenio is the moderator Bruce Bennett is

representing historic Protestantism and Matthew Luke Broderick is representing Roman

Catholicism.

And if you want more details about that debate Go to WOT church .com.

WOT church .com.

And Anthony if you could you were about to respond before we went to the break.

Yeah, thanks, Chris.

I just also wanted to say not only as Protestants always so list

it's all a scripture.

So when I look in the Old Testament and I read the book, this is

God speaking.

He says.

And I will give you a new heart.

And and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you A heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

Amen.

Cause you to be careful to obey my rules.

So did the fruit that we grow.

That we produce is actually a result of the Spirit of God changing our hearts.

Such that he actually is the reason for the fruit.

So it's not I can't even count on me producing the fruit.

It's the Spirit in me like Jesus is.

It's not me.

It's it's the Father in me.

He does the work.

So my salvation from beginning middle and end is to the glory of God alone.

He graciously saved me such that.

Even the works that I do I'm going to lay down at his feet in thanks for what he's done for me.

Amen.

Yeah that if I could yeah Chris.

Yeah, no, cuz Matthew had to try I

guess.

Post -vatican to idea with where it's almost like the the Catholic Church is

that that that

leaves that

salvation

by grace

by the

individual to receive as Matthew said the the grace that that in

a repudiates the God

and.

Obviously, yeah, did you want to respond?

Okay.

No, sure.

Yeah, I definitely believe and hopes I guess that would Paul would hope to and Peter

would hope but sadly doesn't always happen where we cooperate with the grace of God.

We're Christ in us.

Sure, but someone could pass me on the road and as a Christian I may not listen to the Christ within me and I

may cut the person off and so we have to cooperate with that grace.

And to allow Christ to flow within us.

That's why Jesus Christ said if you don't you talking to believers.

He said if you don't forgive others neither be forgiven.

It's something that we need to do.

We need to cooperate with that grace each day.

But as regards to purgatory if we look at 2nd Corinthians 5 verses 10 It says we will receive recompense

not just for the good that we've done in the body But also for the bad that we've done in the body.

Why won't we receive recompense for the bad that we've done in the body when Christ already received that recompense on the cross?

Jesus says we shall be held accountable for every careless word that we utter but why should we be held

accountable for before them and First Peter says love one another for love

covers a multitude of your sins.

But how can we our love for others cover multitude of our sins in Christ?

So I think it's similar to the Old Testament David

sinned.

Yes.

Well, you just said a very key thing.

There are eternal and temporal punishments.

God is Both a father who chastises his children and he is a judge

who will condemn the lost.

We who have been given the gift of eternal life will only receive the first and not the

latter.

And one can only wonder How do you ever know or?

Excuse me.

Well, we're not gonna be we're not gonna be condemned

and receive the wrath of God if we have the been given the gift of eternal life.

But my point how do you know?

How do you know Matthew?

Well, obviously this is a again another reason for reasons for a debate.

Which we're not going to do right now.

But there's obviously as we were saying from the beginning a different gospel here that the Church of Rome

and historic Protestants Have two different gospels.

Only one can be correct.

And how do you know that you have?

Appeased God with enough repentance and good works and all that.

Can you ever know on this earth that you have received?

Eternal life because you have done enough.

I don't know it.

Made manifest.

And after death some shall indeed be saved but suffer loss and be saved but only as through fire.

So that so you can never know on this earth if you are going to heaven or hell.

Oh to heaven or hell.

Yeah, I believe we can if we hope but like Jesus Christ.

Those who cooperate with the grace those who take up their cross each day.

But especially I'm just hoping in the kindness of God but allowing to know that God will judge the wiccan.

You know Jesus.

If you look at the first book of John John says is so that you may know that you are saved.

But John uses the word if over ten times.

If we forgive others if we keep the commandments.

If we love one another if we put his word into practice.

So we can't have that assurance if we keep all the if yeah, but nobody can do that.

Nobody can keep all of the F's.

Can you love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and strength?

Every moment of every day.

Can anybody do that?

We don't know but some people say well, no one could ever keep the commandments.

But yet it's before God and her keeping the commandments because she cooperated with that grace.

So Paul says you even given every supernatural gifts under heaven, but for me, I just when you had referenced.

It's not an insult to Christ.

But it's just an understanding that the book of Hebrews talks about.

We should each have to give an account for our lives.

No, I'm not where Jesus Christ.

You know, it is also second couldn't be five centuries to recompense also for the bad also.

Well.

We would believe that purgatory is really one of the most dangerous heresies ever developed.

Because you are.

It is a mockery of the complete and sufficient work of Christ on Calvary.

Again because first Corinthians 315 Paul said our work shall be tested and after death some shall be lost and be saved.

But only as through fire, right?

Well, I would disagree that that has anything.

Let me direct my listeners to a debate that dr. James R. White conducted with father Peter Stravinsky's

on The matter of purgatory.

You could see it on YouTube in its entirety.

You could see it.

You could get it from Alpha and Omega ministries website a o m i n org.

Now this obviously I keep saying is not supposed to be a debate but that it proves what I have been saying from the very

Beginning we have different Gospels.

We have different Ways of entering into heaven.

So therefore I think that these events like debates even though One

side may be saying of the other you are not my brother.

That does not mean that we Hate you or that we think that we are innately superior to you.

I Have Roman Catholic friends that I believe are superior to me in a host of

ways.

And the way that they live and conduct their lives.

There are Roman Catholic men that are far better husbands than I ever was there are Roman Catholic

children who are far better Children to their parents than I ever was.

We could go on and on citizens neighbors.

But that so it's not the issue of we're better than you.

It's just that we who are Bible -believing Protestants believe that we have

the truth from the God -breathed scriptures and the true gospel and it's clear that

there are two radically different understandings of salvation that are

being held to and the reason for me reiterating this is I don't understand the ecumenist whether the

ecumenist is a Protestant like Billy Graham or the Roman Catholics such as yourself or

Most of those in fact probably all of those that Catholic answers.

How they could say that their Protestant friends are separated brethren who will go to heaven

possibly?

When it is clear the gospel is different that we hold to.

Quickly want to add something because I think in listening to what Matthew says and trying to to understand his position.

He says that works are not meritorious.

But if you don't have them you're going to be judged and Potentially knock it in into

heaven, which would which would you mean?

They are meritorious and I think this is a fundamental difference between what a Protestant belief

when I use the word faith I use it as trust.

I'm trusting for my sins.

In other words should to satisfy all me

for all of my sins.

Once I do that, I'm placed in prop and now I work out my salvation

with fear and trembling.

Based upon the Spirit of God in me that writes his law upon my heart and compels me to do good works.

The works flow from a changed heart.

I don't change my own heart.

God change it changes it.

Such as such that we can say like Paul quoting David in Romans says Blessed

are those who walk whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.

This is the gospel when you truly trust in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.

You are now in right relationship with him and if in repentance

this will naturally flow

from that relationship.

From that changed heart so that you will have good works on the day of judgment and those good works are going

to be judged right,

and I think

and Matthew perhaps

you could.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you said that the that works of men are meritorious, but they by themselves

Can never merit heaven that the death of Christ is required and so on.

Am I right on that?

We have to cooperate

with great, you know, it's a to merit salvation good works.

Well, no, no, it could.

Works automatically flow.

Paul would have no need to you know in quarantine Galatians and saying,

you know, don't do certain things.

You're Christian.

But I've heard you're doing certain things.

So in other words if you have children if you have children.

In order for them to remain your children They have to obey you.

Is that what you're saying that a parent should never say to a child?

Don't run out in the street.

Don't smoke drugs.

Don't have sex before marriage.

A parent Shouldn't have to tell that child those things because that child will always be

the child of the parents.

Is that what you're saying?

Well, that's what really it's.

I think it's a perfect parallel.

Well, no, actually it's not really because Paul says to those who have faith in Jesus Christ But who act in a way that's immoral

and impure he says you shall not enter the kingdom of God.

He's not saying oh, you know, you really shouldn't do that.

He said if you do such things, you're not gonna enter the well.

Well, obviously even your hopefully even your church believes even your church

believes.

That there are immoral disobedient Catholics in their millions, but they go to

Receive the sacrament of penance in order to get out from under that condemnation.

We believe as Bible -believing Protestants that the finished work of Christ is.

What has removed that curse and that enslavement?

From us that the death of Christ alone and even though Christians do commit horrible

sins.

The difference between somebody who's born again and somebody who is a false Professor is the area of

repentance if a person is surrendered to sin and lives that way.

For the rest of their are their lives and they never repent.

That person certainly will be in hell.

But any final words from you Bruce and Anthony?

Yeah, I just

wanted this is eternal life that they may know the the only.

So what what is justification?

What is salvation knowing God?

Personally it's knowing God Intimately that word.

No, there is no experiential relational level

where the Anthony said before the Holy Spirit actually Changes your heart you

a new heart in

a hunger and thirst.

For as Anthony said before When we

stand before the judgment of Christ, it won't be unto damnation.

The areas that we were disobeying of the unto a loss of reward.

So I think that

the most in

regards to the Christ.

And Anthony you have anything to add in closing.

No, I think that was a great point, you know this is eternal life that they may know you the one true God in Jesus Christ whom you've sent.

If you know Jesus as Savior, you know that his death on the cross was sufficient for your

sins otherwise Christianity is just turned into any

other religion on the planet.

There's only two really two religions in the world human accomplishment or divine achievement.

Human accomplishment.

All those religions teaches this is what you do to work your way into heaven.

Christianity's the only one that says you.

You cannot work your way into.

Having your works are not going to merit you heaven.

In fact, you're sick to leave heaven come down to earth and rescue you

from beginning middle

Defies you and eventually will will glorify you which is the essence of wrong.

And Matthew.

Do you?

Admit here that there are two different Gospels the the gospel of Rome and the gospel that

the Reformation Historically has stood for that.

They are in very stark contrast to one another in many ways that that

really Determines on the eternal destiny of those that are adhering to one or the other.

Again speaking about Luke 12 those in ignorance, but yes, definitely an absolute.

Whereas Catholic Christians, we believe that it was Christ's blood alone that opened up the gates of heaven.

We just don't believe it's through faith alone.

We believe that we need to not just Hear the Word of God, but put into practice.

We have to bear that good fruit.

We have to.

If we don't forgive we won't be forgiven.

There are some that say well Paul's writing to the Ephesians and Galatians those who have faith in Jesus Christ.

And he's warning them if you don't act if you don't cooperate with grace.

If you don't walk the way of the Lord, he says you're not worthy.

They have faith.

What is needed and what is needed is obedience and

Cooperation with God's grace in order to serve him and to love him and in order to inherit the kingdom of God by

repenting of our sins.

But you would have to say That those that have really studied the issue I mean you're

talking about you know, if you want to even include men whose intellects and Hours and years of

study far exceed any Protestant on this show today that those people

According to what you keep repeating about ignorance.

Those people will certainly be in hell unless they repent if they are adhering

Continually in spite of what you say is evidence to the contrary.

That they until their deaths adhere to a Protestant gospel I'm assuming to be consistent you must believe that

they will be in hell to God.

But like in Trent the same is for ignorance.

Luke 12 as it knows who act in ignorance knows.

It's not but some of the Protestants who believe that you know.

The persons of Rome who believe that we do

show mercy in order to be forgiven.

Not just hear the Word of God But put in to forgive others

and cooperate with the grace

of God and hope in his mercy.

Which one of us is right.

Which church to show mercy to us all but?

Amen well.

He's obviously not going to show mercy to us all.

I Mean there is a hell and I know that the Roman Catholic Church believes in that.

I'm not sure if Pope Francis believes in a eternal conscious state of torment.

But.

That that is actually a debate that I hope to Organize at some point in the future.

I want to Organize a debate on whether or not Pope Francis is a faithful

shepherd.

I don't know if anybody involved here can can find a

apologist that a Roman Catholic apologist that wants to defend that thesis that Pope Francis is a faithful shepherd because that is

The next debate that I would like to orchestrate with dr. Tony Costa here in in Carlisle, Pennsylvania

but I Want to thank all of you.

I especially want to thank Matthew Broderick because he was outnumbered today and

It really turned into more of a debate than I wanted it to but it was it was nearly

impossible to prevent entirely this becoming a debate because There were constant Proof

texts being brought up to defend specific issues, so I couldn't just lay them Let them

lie there without being responded to.

But I want to thank you so much Matthew.

You've been a gentleman and you've been very gracious and polite and I look forward to God willing meeting you.

I don't know if I can make it out on the 12th of March, but I'm going to try to and

Actually, you never sounded distressed you never sounded disrespectful.

Right, yeah, you never sounded disrespectful once that I can recall during this entire discussion so.

But I know that the New York apologetics The website of Anthony Eugenio is

New York apologetics calm and that's spelled out with two words any w y o r k

Dot.

I'm sorry, New York apologetics calm and

Pastor Bruce Bennett's website for Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is WOT

Church.

Which stands for Word of Truth Church calm.

WOT Church calm and The debate once again is going to be held on

Saturday April 14th.

Yeah, I misspoke earlier when I said March 12th, that's today.

The debate the debate is actually Saturday April 14th 630 p .m. At

the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island and We hope that as many of you

who can travel to Farmingville can attend that debate but between

our guests Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church and Matthew Broderick.

Matthew Luke Broderick a lay Catholic apologist with Anthony Eugenio serving as moderator.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I want to Urge you to listen not only tomorrow and every day to iron sharpens

iron radio.

But listen to the program on Wednesday this Wednesday the 14th of March.

When I interview dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary who's going to be giving an assessment

and critique of my debate with James Bogle who is a Roman Catholic

barrister in Great Britain and I want you all to always remember for the rest

of your lives That Jesus Christ is a far far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.

I look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow and every day Monday through Friday 4 to

6 p .m. Eastern Time on iron sharpens iron radio.