The 2019 Most Downloaded Episode of NoCo: Tom Buck Discusses Living Out

Ministry Purpose and Biblical Proclamation

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said,.

�But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King. Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth. And it is a rare thing for me to do a show on a Friday afternoon and then post it on a Friday night. But today, our guest and the topic that our guest is going to talk about is important and timely and relevant.

That kind of reminds me of the old �management by objectives� back in corporate America. SMART. Is it specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, and timely? So this is relevant and timely, and we have a special guest today, Pastor Tom Buck.

Welcome to No Compromise Radio.

Well, it�s a privilege to be here, and it�s not unusual for people that interview me to want to do it on a Friday dump, so I totally understand.

Tom Buck’s Ministry Background

Now see, that was not what I was planning to do, but I have another reason for having the Friday issue. Tom, before we get into the topic for today, the same-sex-attracted, living out Sam Albury issues that you�ve been writing about at AOMin .org, I�d like to know a little bit about you and your ministry, your pastoring, and how long have you been the senior pastor there at First Baptist?

It�s been 13 years since March this month, so I�m thankful to have been here, for a little shift there for 12 years prior to coming here. So thankful for the work of the Lord�s ministry that God has placed me in, and thankful for this church.

How about your background? Does any good thing come out of Dallas and Moody?

Well, if you asked them these days, they would say, �Well, not much from my era. But yes, I went to the Bible Institute, Dallas Seminary, back in the day. So thankful for my training that I received, transpired there since, but a logical education and love for the Word of God for both of those institutions.

Tom, did you have S. Lewis Johnson for professor?

No, he was not there by the time I got there, but of course I had some Dr. Toussaint.

I remember Stanley Toussaint telling me once about being in the car riding along with S. Lewis Johnson, and they were talking about ministry, and I would have liked to have been in the car ride for that.

I had a dear friend that just went home to glory, and you probably knew him at your days at Dallas, Chaplain Bill Bryant. Did you know Bill? Oh, I knew him well.

He�s one of the finest men I�ve ever known. My daughter�s multiple. This was after I was a student there, long after I was a student there, and every single time she had to serve, he was right there. He was.

I loved Bill. One time he was really sick a couple years ago, so I called him, and I said, �Chaplain Bill, I know you normally go visit people and minister to them when they�re sick, but you�re sick now, and I can�t get there because I�m up in Massachusetts, but I just thought I�d call, and I want to just encourage you and pray for you and read the scriptures to you.

So, we talked for a little bit, and talking about reading scriptures, and so then he goes, �Okay, it�s time to pray. Go. So, let�s talk a little bit more specifically about pastor�s roles. I know you�re preaching through the Bible verse by verse on Sunday morning every single week, and that�s your main job and passion, showing Christ to the people in all the scriptures.

What about, though, the side of ministry that maybe isn�t as fun, but it�s a duty, where to teach sound doctrine and where to refute those that contradict? How do you kind of balance that, or what makes you tick when it comes to, yes, you have to teach the right thing, but you also have to warn others about things that contradict scripture?

Teaching Sound Doctrine and Refuting Error

Well, you know, to be honest, when I came here, for example, some of those things, and I didn�t even know who Rob Bell was. Is that not stunning? That was in 2006. Now that may be to my shame, but I had no idea who he was at all.

So I began, I had not yet, you know, completely had to clean that teaching up and deal with that here. So the first place that you begin, it arises. I have never found that difficult. I mean, where do you begin, where do you end, what do you speak out on?

So that�s the balance I�m trying to strike.

Talking to Tom Buck today on No Compromise Radio. Tom, when I�m preaching the Bible and dealing with people here in Massachusetts at this small little town, at a small little church, back in the day when I got here, you know, the internet probably existed, but the only thing that people here had access to was maybe we are close to Christian discount books up in Peabody, Mass, or as you might say, Peabody, and they could get those books, maybe radio stations.

But now with the internet, while people can listen to Sinclair Ferguson sermons with a click and be edified and encouraged, they also can receive information from other ministries, and some that have had great track records.

But it�s easy for the people now that we pastor to have access to things, and so I think that lends itself to the Christian clergy, that is the pastors and elders, to make sure we�re addressing some of these issues maybe more than we used to have to.

Does that make sense?

I absolutely agree, and that�s what I mean by the balance, that my folks are going home and they�re probably inundated with voices, other than their elders, far more, whether it be somebody they click on on the internet, or someone they.

What�s worse, though, is this, and that is when there are men who have been elevated as being trustworthy voices, it�s even far worse and more needed for us. My people trust certain voices that even in the past I�ve told them to trust, and now they�re saying crazy things.

So it�s multifaceted, what we�re dealing with right now.

Tom, before we get into specifics, let�s talk a little bit about just the general drift. Of course, in the day of Spurgeon, it was the downgrade controversy, and of course, people start off well, and then for whatever reason, they�re tired, they�ve got a big staff, they can�t keep up with everything, they become more liberal, somebody in their life changes a theological position, so they want to continue to love them, so they change or soften on it.

I guess there�s lots of reasons why it happens, but it seems to me these days, with large evangelical ministries, they seem to be cutting corners theologically and philosophically faster than they used to.

Do you have a reason for this, by your own observation, in your opinion?

Of why there�s such a rapid shift taking place?

Yes, just in general, with these larger organizations.

Yeah, I think that�I would say there are probably many, many reasons why it�s taking place. Let me try some charitable reasons, I think, that are not good excuses or good reasons, but to try to think of it.

I think some people are dealing with issues in their own personal lives. Maybe there�s someone at the beginning to see that the position that they held ten years ago that they could hold. I do think that there are a lot of people who do have a heart of saying, �Hey, we want to�.

There are a lot of people adopting the culture�s language, actually, so I do believe we need to be clear. I think we have to be careful about what we say and be biblical. A lot of damage being done.

Well, Tom, thank you for that overview, and I wanted to lead in with that because, of course, our Twitter faces, as it were, I think both yours and mine, via NoCoRadio�s Twitter, may be a little more snarky, may be more direct, may be calling more people out, but that doesn�t really represent the entire ministry that the Lord has either given you or me, but that�s just an aspect of it, and I think with Twitter, by nature, it�s kind of more direct and,.

�Hey, what about this And,. �What about that And so, thank you for that overview. Let's now funnel down a little bit more and talk about your four-part articles, your four-part series on Living Out that was published by James White at AOMin .org.

If our listeners want to read all four of those, and I suggest that they do, AOMin .org, scroll down to the blog and you can read all four of those, Living Out, Part 1, 2, 3, 4. Why did you decide to write that?

Because I�m sure you realized that you were going to receive some flack when you did.

The Living Out Audit and Same-Sex Attraction

Well, I began to notice problems last spring. It began with, I didn�t even know anything about Living Out. I didn�t know anything about any of these issues. I was with Sam Mulberry. I read his book, God Anti-Gay.

What I was thankful for in that he did make it clear that someone who struggled with this particular sin should not adopt it as their identity in a godly way that is submissive to. To say that both the outward expression of the sin and the inward desire of the sin was sinful.

I do think that the church... Yet, you have Matt Chandler and concerns. I then discussed it because people pointed me there and said, �Well, he is more in line with where we think. Well, when I began reading Living Out, it was the audit that they were giving to make sure that your church is LGBTQ inclusive, that we need to make sure churches are not hurting them as a minority, a sexual minority.

The language that is employed for the victimology and all of these things, rather than using biblical terminology, they were using worldly language to talk about all of this. So I began privately going to people within the SBC, throwing the red flag up, saying, �What is going on here

I received from them publicly embracing Living Out. I went to them privately. All of these within the SBC. I went to people with the ERLC block after roadblock. No one was listening. I said, �Enough is enough.

This is too dangerous. I had people in my church, if he was given, they're going to trust. Before I had to say something, and I only had to say something to my church, I felt I needed to make the entire SBC aware.

Talking to Tom Buck today on No Compromise Radio. Tom, the one thing I noticed as well, when Banner of Truth also writes an article about it, January 11th, 2019, LGBTQ Plus Audit, it's not like you're the only one out there and you've just got some ax to grind.

When Banner's writing about it, it needs to be dealt with as well. Excuse me. Tell me a little bit more about the general consensus that many evangelicals have. How could you write this when you're causing upset, you haven't gone to them personally, Matthew 18 is quoted so that you have to go do this, that, and the other.

The thing is, you have done a lot of that stuff, but still, isn't that just a false canard to say, �You better go talk to them and don't take this public when Living Out has made it public, and Nine Marks has made it public, Ravi Zacharias has made it public, Southern Seminary and a lot of other places, it seems like they're all endorsing in one form or another, the ministry of Sam Albury, which means they're endorsing Living Out, right?

Absolutely. I mean, the clearest connection in the SBC was, we can talk about he's removed overnight, it was removed on today. Russell Moore specifically said that these resources, this was on the Living Out website, he said these resources, he categorized them as being within the Southern Baptist Convention by actually having them hosting the Living Out conferences in their churches and helping facilitate that.

I think that I took a clip from something that someone said, and I think that when people begin to say that if someone says something, and I think that's even more important than a 30-minute speech and then privately that I went to people, they continue to write back to defending Sam Albury.

They told me, well, we've talked to Sam and here's what he said. We talked to Sam and here's what he said. We talked to Sam, he said, you're misunderstanding. So I feel like I already had a good legitimate reason to go public.

These individuals, they were defending Sam, saying that this is what he's saying, therefore I think that me going public is, if Sam's not listening to them, why would he listen to me?

Why Public Rebuke Was Necessary

Tom, before we go to specifics on the Living Out website and your article that has pretty much debunked it and exposed it, what about the personal attacks? So first, you're going to post these things, Part 1, 2, 3, 4, which I think was wise to stretch that out some and let people think about it.

But what about the personal attacks? I'm wondering why they want to attack you short of, you know what, we've got to destroy the messenger. And then also explain to our audience a little bit with a G3 tie-in so you can make yourself clear regarding that issue and what you said on the platform.

Well, I think that people want to kill the messenger for a variety of reasons, but I think that for some people it's just, hey, this is unkind. We shouldn't say things that are unkind. You know, the fruit of the spirit doesn't include, you know, the way that they want to express kindness.

It's ridiculous how they, niceness, I think is probably the word. They want to equate kindness with being niceness. What's not nice is if you call someone. I do believe there are people that want to discredit what I say because they don't want to deal with the substance of it.

People probably feel that there's an agenda behind it to just go after me that knows me or follows me, knows that I do not have hijacking of the pro-life movement. At the G3 conference, I made a statement publicly, speaking passionately, and I was calling out Russell Moore by name and the fact that he, I believe, he's a political operative in the way that he, a variety of issues to shift what the convention thinks.

I mean, everybody knows that. I mean, that's not a, to whom I did vote, but pro-life issue, equated prison, pro-life issue is prison in the ERLC issue. That's what I was saying at G3. So what I said there is this.

I said that I, I've had ERLC, in, for those in the SBE, come to me every day, believes that animal rights is, they can't be trusted on that issue.

The Case for Warning as Well as Teaching

Talking to Tom Buck today on No Compromise Radio. You can follow Tom on Twitter. It's at Tom Buck, right? That's correct. All right. Tom, one of the things I've noticed in evangelicalism especially is this mantra that people use.

We want to be known for what we're for and not what we're against. I'm preaching through the book of Hebrews on Sunday mornings here at Bethlehem Bible Church. And one of the things I've noticed is the writer, the author of, to the book of Hebrews, and by the way, just to let you know, Tom, the author is not Mary.

Some people say the author's Mary, but that's not quite right. And that actually, there is someone that believes that, but. For Miller or Quillen? And he is for the supremacy of Christ Jesus. He is for Christ Jesus' great high priestly ministry.

And that means he's against the most beloved, the apple of the eye for those Jews. And that is the priestly system and the temple and everything that goes along with it. He is against that. And they, who are the recipients of that letter, can quickly discern what he's for and what he's against.

And so to me, with propositional truth, whether it's Paul or Peter or our Lord Jesus, when you're for righteousness, you're against sin. When you're for truth, you're against error. And I just find this whole mantra, the tone police, and you shouldn't try to police everyone and you should tone it down.

I just think it does not hold any water at all. When we, and I think you as well, are in particular concerned about the purity of the Lord's church. We don't care what happens to Mike Ebendroth or Tom Buck or anything like that.

It doesn't matter. But the Lord's church, she is worthy to stand up for and take the heat for. So anyway, I just want to commend you for taking the shots. Was it not Spurgeon that said, if they knew our real sins and problems, the critique and criticism would be a lot worse?

Well, absolutely. And let me address what you just said about that is for and against. It is easy to get caught up in that. It sounds so good, doesn't it? But yet, let's just take an easy example. If we're for our children, then we're against anything that could threaten our children, hurt our children.

So let's just bring this down to a very simple thing that we see that we can use to illustrate this in everyday life. There are people today, and they're very concerned, and rightly so, about everything about their children.

They want to make sure that everything that they buy, their children couldn't harm them. They want to make sure that everything they eat, they want to make sure that, you know, we have organic this, organic that, because we want to protect the health of our children.

Recalls, we want to make sure that. And there are parents who will read the ingredients of every box of Cheez-Its and will get online to make sure that every toy, that there hasn't been a recall, that can't hurt or harm their children because they care for them.

They want to be against what can harm them. But they don't care about what's written at Living Out and what could not only harm their children if they go there if they're same-sex attracted, but could harm every other person that they don't even know.

So it's absolutely absurd. If we're going to check the ingredients on a Cheez-It box to make sure that it's not going to harm our child physically, we ought to be caring enough about what's on Living Out of whether it could damn one of our children's soul to hell because they become confirmed in their orientation and begin to live that way.

Amen. Well put.

Mortifying Sin and the Problem with the Living Out Website

Let's now move, Tom, to the series of articles, Living Out articles, that are posted on aomin .org. So you're going to get me in trouble. You get James in trouble. What are you doing? Anyway, we're going to address those issues.

So let's start at a high level. In summary, at kind of like the distilled form, what's the main issue that you have with the Living Out site?

The main issue I have with their site is the fact that they give counsel and they direct people in how to respond to the sin struggles of their life that does not teach to mortify those desires, that tries to, whether it be philosophical hoops or it be whatever it may be, to tell them that there's other ways that they can deal with these things rather than radically seeking to mortify that desire in their life.

Tom, as I read 1 Corinthians chapter six, verse nine and following, it says, or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Of course, the Corinthians were know-it-alls and they thought they knew everything.

And so Paul really presses them. And then he says, do not be deceived. And the reason why he says that is because it's easy to be deceived. And then he goes on to say, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.

There's actually two Greek words there that the ESV combines into one, I think, sadly. But nonetheless, nor thieves, nor greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And then, of course, those glorious words that Paul writes that are true for every kind of sinner, whether it's an unrighteous sin or self-righteous sins and everything in between, and such were some of you.

And then he gives that language of just the benefits of the Lord Jesus in his work and what he does, the Lord Jesus, to sinners. He washes them. He says, you are washed, you are sanctified, and you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

And then he goes on to talk about sexual sin. And he says in verse 18, flee from sexual immorality. He talks about why it's so bad. Both you and I rejoice that Sam and the living out people, well, I don't know if I can speak for the living out people, but Sam certainly addresses that homosexuality is sinful and can be forgiven and the Lord Jesus can cleanse that.

We're not arguing about that, are we? No, not at all. So what's the real argument when you talk about mortifying and what do they want to place the person who says, I'm a Christian, I'm not going to practice homosexuality, but I'm not going to then get married to someone of the opposite sex, maybe like a Rosario Butterfield.

We're just going to kind of be content to live in this realm of we won't be homosexuals in our sexual practice, but we can still live with some kind of lifestyle that's associated with homosexuality. Is that what they're saying?

No, I don't think that's what they're saying specifically. I mean, if we just deal with what they're saying, let's just take the same sex attracted person saying that there are more ways, potential ways to deal with this responding to these issues than just flee from sexual immorality.

So let's give an example. The first article I dealt with was, what do you do if you have a same sex attracted couple who is sexually active and practicing the homosexual lifestyle and they get saved? Do they have to quit living together?

I think you and I would say unequivocally, yes, they should stop living together. This is no brainer. This is something you do not need an article on. You can tweet. You can accomplish that in a tweet.

You may have to have some nuance to help the person walk through that, obviously, and explain to that individual. But as far as giving an answer to that, it does not require a lengthy article. But what they do is they begin to introduce emotionally charged issues like, what if they have a child together?

And obviously they even skip over the fact that they couldn't have a child through the natural means. They've adopted a child and introduced that child into a godless situation, teaching that child that homosexuality is a good and profitable way to live and an OK way to live.

So they never address that. They just introduce it for an emotionally charged issue. And then they say, well, if they're together, maybe they could continue to live together and they could experience intimacy that is non-sexual.

Because we're all meant to experience intimacy. You don't want to break this, this quote unquote family up. There's other ways to address it, saying this relationship is an abomination before God. And every single sign of that relationship needs to be admitted.

It doesn't need to take love. And it's going to apply that truth to a physical and unobserved.

I think every one of our listeners, Tom, would say if there was a man and a woman living together, they're not married. They're fornicating. They both come to faith. Our counsel would not be the revoice type of living out counsel that was being stay together and still do this, that and the other.

I think of an illustration that's a true one. There was a brother and sister in Russia and they slept together and there was a baby involved. And then they decided they would just move away and act like a married couple and raise the child and still be together.

They got saved and went to the pastor and the pastor gave the right advice. Listen, you can both see the child. Obviously, the child needs a mom and a dad, but you don't live together. You don't act this way.

You have to renounce this because this is improper and wrong and sinful. And you need to run from this. And why would we give that couple that advice to fornicators, that advice? But we now don't give that advice to people who have been homosexually involved.

It just does not make any sense to me pastorally.

Well, I'll tell you why they would give the advice, I think. I think that they're giving the advice because they know that there is not an option that we would have for that other couple. That other couple can move out, not live together, and then get married and live together, creating a level of sympathy, which may be something we at least need to have a tender heart towards, that these two men or two women don't ever have the ability to get married.

And so, family up, that can never be reunited or never be made right by coming back together. So they're playing on that sympathy, I think, and they're giving, and that's why these categories are being created that have never been there before.

Because they're saying, what do we do with that? Well, what we do with that is we obey scripture. And we believe that the power of the gospel has not only the ability to change their hearts, but also the ability to comfort them.

The God of all comfort can comfort them even in that affliction that they're going to feel from doing what's right in carrying out full repentance. So I think that's why a lot of people are saying that.

Don't you feel this situation that this couple can never be able to live together, but the other couple you can tell to get married. So I think that's what. I think that's exactly right. By the way, this is my show.

So I ask you the questions. Just kidding. Well, people say that when it comes to Tom Buck, it's his way or the highway.

Well, when I took my biblical counseling classes at seminary, and I'm sure when you had your classes, one of the things that they drove into our minds was make sure you tell people that you're dealing with, that there's hope.

If you do things the Lord's way, you sit down with a Christian man or a woman or a couple and they're struggling and you say, you know what? There's hope if you do things in light of who you are in Christ and for his glory, guilt, grace, gratitude, and there's hope for you, right?

There's maybe that hope is only eternal hope, but there's hope for you. I think if we tell people what living out is telling them, there's really no hope for a temporally fulfilled life. And I'll prove it by saying with the church audit, the living out audit, number 10, quote, no one would be pressured into expecting or seeking any healing or change that God has not promised any of us until the renewal of all things.

True, false, not sure. I know people don't like it and some people can say experientially, well, I could never have an attraction sexually towards the opposite sex because I am born homosexual and I'm going to stay that way.

And even though I'm forgiven and I'm not going to act out on it, I could never be attracted. I look at somebody like Rosaria Butterfield. I'm sure she initially didn't say when she got saved, I'm attracted to men.

But correct me if I'm wrong. I think she's a pastor's wife and has several children. And I think and I know people are going to blister me for this, but I think God can give new appetites for lots of different things.

For instance, I used to hate the Bible. I now love the Bible. I used to love people for what they could give to me. And now I can love them in a sacrificial way. What I used to love, I hate. And what I hate, I now love by the power of the grace of God.

I think living out is saying you can, you know, you're just going to be this way the rest of your life and you can't act out on it, which further exacerbates the problem because these people don't have the gift of singleness.

And so they have sexual desires and they have no way to exercise those sexual desires. I think that's going to be a disaster. Am I right?

Am I thinking rightly, Tom? I think you're thinking exactly right. And this is, I mean, this is a lot to talk about because there's so much that is there. But even with what you said about gift of singleness, I'm hearing them talk about someone who is same-sex attracted, becomes a Christian who continues to have the same sex attraction to desire that they're saying, well, I have the gift to sing.

I must have to have the gift of singleness since I can't act on this. So they're even now defining gift of singleness to include someone who has a desire that can't be mortified. And that's an issue as well.

But yeah, you're absolutely right. When I've dealt and I've dealt with multiple people that I never called it same-sex attracted, but because that's a new terminology, but I would talk about those who struggle with the desires of home.

And I've dealt with multiple people in my ministry that way. And I have encouraged them to mortify that desire that they don't have that desire at all and would transform their unnatural desire for one that is natural.

Now, I also tell them, I'm not promising that that'll happen overnight. I'm not promising that, I'm not even promising that'll ever happen. But you're going to continue, you need to continue to battle against the outward expressions of that sin.

And you also need to continue to pray and battle against the inward desire. And that Colossians chapter 3, verse 5, Paul says, put to death what is earthly in you. Now, there's five words that he gives there.

All of them are modifying or moving further closer to the heart from the first one, which is the outward expression of sexual immorality. Then he moves towards the heart to eventually say, this is all idolatry.

But in the middle of that is evil desire. So Paul's saying, put to death the evil desire. Well, how is a desire to be attracted to someone of the same sex, which is unnatural, which did not exist before the fall?

How is that not an evil desire? If it is an evil desire, then it has to be mortified. We should have be gracious to our brothers and sisters as they battle against that and seek to put to death what is earthly in them.

But to tell them that they shouldn't do that is wrong and unbiblical. I am being told secondhand by friends that he does not agree, or that he does agree with what I've just said right now, that they do need to seek to put to death.

If that's true, I'm praying that he'll come out and say that. And if he doesn't come out and say that, then we have bigger issues.

Physical Intimacy, Holy Kisses, and the Heart of Sin

Tom, let's have a couple of quotes. I'll read a couple of quotes that you brought up in your articles on AOMN .org, that if a person's listening and they're thinking, you know what, maybe Mike and Tom, they just have an ax to grind and there's discernment ministry and blogging.

I don't know who could listen to these quotes that are on the Living Out website and somehow say, you know what, they need to stay up there and this is right and this is good and this is healthy and this is Christ honoring.

One of the men who coordinate that website, Living Out, we've got Ed Shaw, Sean Doherty and Sam Albury in reverse order. Here is Doherty in an article, quote, holding back from sexual intimacy doesn't spell an end to physical intimacy, not for a moment.

There are wonderful ways to be physically close to other people without being sexually close to them. We hug and kiss our friends and relatives in non-sexual ways. We hold hands with children. Some people love to play fight, especially guys, question mark.

My sons love to do this with me. Personally, I'd rather prefer to cuddle them, but I have to play fight with them because it is a way they give and receive physical affection. None of these things necessarily have anything to do with sex, but they have much to do with physical affection and intimacy.

As St. Paul puts it, greet one another with a holy kiss. Um, I'm not even going to read the rest there. When we, when we say, you know, two men who have been saved and struggle with homosexuality can continue to have physical intimacy and he equates it to a holy kiss.

That rubs me the wrong way.

It should cease. And so we're thankful. And let's clarify for everybody. We're thankful that they say that no homo, no person who is same sex attracted should practice. So we're thankful for that. But what they're doing is they're saying, but you could, even, even for people that have already been sexually active with one another, you could continue to live together without doing the, the sexual part.

And you could have other expressions of physical intimacy. And then he uses wonderful, beautiful things that we, uh, experience in church life and family life to then say, well, they could be doing all of those things without crossing the line of doing the other things.

However, earlier in that article, I think it's that same article. He says that as they work to do this, there'll be trial and error periods, which means that you're going to sometimes slip and do some of the sexual stuff while you're trying to figure out all the other stuff you could do that's not sexual.

But he says it's worth it to be able to keep this family together. That's repulsive. And he's taking something that's beautiful and pure and wonderful, like a church love for one another with a holy kiss and family intimacy between a father and their children and trying to transport that into this relationship that's herded and, uh, and godless and figuring out a way to be a halfway house to get them to be able to still live together and experience that kind of intimacy.

I find that gross.

Well, that's exactly right. And what happens is we forget about the heart. And our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 5, you have heard that it was said you shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

And then he gives some very radical advice to make sure that sin is dealt with. Tom, I'm sure you do the same thing that I do. I have to be very, very careful because I know how wicked I still am and the sin that still dwells in me.