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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said,.
�But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you.
By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King. Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.
Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth. And it is a rare thing for me to do a show on a Friday afternoon and then post it on a Friday night. But today, our guest and the topic that our guest is going to talk about is important and timely and relevant.
That kind of reminds me of the old �management by objectives� back in corporate America. SMART. Is it specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, and timely? So this is relevant and timely, and we have a special guest today, Pastor Tom Buck.
Welcome to No Compromise Radio.
Well, it�s a privilege to be here, and it�s not unusual for people that interview me to want to do it on a Friday dump, so I totally understand.
Now see, that was not what I was planning to do, but I have another reason for having the Friday issue. Tom, before we get into the topic for today, the same-sex-attracted, living out Sam Albury issues that you�ve been writing about at AOMin .org, I�d like to know a little bit about you and your ministry, your pastoring, and how long have you been the senior pastor there at First Baptist?
It�s been 13 years since March this month, so I�m thankful to have been here, for a little shift there for 12 years prior to coming here. So thankful for the work of the Lord�s ministry that God has placed me in, and thankful for this church.
How about your background? Does any good thing come out of Dallas and Moody?
Well, if you asked them these days, they would say, �Well, not much from my era. But yes, I went to the Bible Institute, Dallas Seminary, back in the day. So thankful for my training that I received, transpired there since, but a logical education and love for the Word of God for both of those institutions.
Tom, did you have S. Lewis Johnson for professor?
No, he was not there by the time I got there, but of course I had some Dr. Toussaint.
I remember Stanley Toussaint telling me once about being in the car riding along with S. Lewis Johnson, and they were talking about ministry, and I would have liked to have been in the car ride for that.
I had a dear friend that just went home to glory, and you probably knew him at your days at Dallas, Chaplain Bill Bryant. Did you know Bill? Oh, I knew him well.
He�s one of the finest men I�ve ever known. My daughter�s multiple. This was after I was a student there, long after I was a student there, and every single time she had to serve, he was right there. He was.
I loved Bill. One time he was really sick a couple years ago, so I called him, and I said, �Chaplain Bill, I know you normally go visit people and minister to them when they�re sick, but you�re sick now, and I can�t get there because I�m up in Massachusetts, but I just thought I�d call, and I want to just encourage you and pray for you and read the scriptures to you.
So, we talked for a little bit, and talking about reading scriptures, and so then he goes, �Okay, it�s time to pray. Go. So, let�s talk a little bit more specifically about pastor�s roles. I know you�re preaching through the Bible verse by verse on Sunday morning every single week, and that�s your main job and passion, showing Christ to the people in all the scriptures.
What about, though, the side of ministry that maybe isn�t as fun, but it�s a duty, where to teach sound doctrine and where to refute those that contradict? How do you kind of balance that, or what makes you tick when it comes to, yes, you have to teach the right thing, but you also have to warn others about things that contradict scripture?
Well, you know, to be honest, when I came here, for example, some of those things, and I didn�t even know who Rob Bell was. Is that not stunning? That was in 2006. Now that may be to my shame, but I had no idea who he was at all.
So I began, I had not yet, you know, completely had to clean that teaching up and deal with that here. So the first place that you begin, it arises. I have never found that difficult. I mean, where do you begin, where do you end, what do you speak out on?
So that�s the balance I�m trying to strike.
Talking to Tom Buck today on No Compromise Radio. Tom, when I�m preaching the Bible and dealing with people here in Massachusetts at this small little town, at a small little church, back in the day when I got here, you know, the internet probably existed, but the only thing that people here had access to was maybe we are close to Christian discount books up in Peabody, Mass, or as you might say, Peabody, and they could get those books, maybe radio stations.
But now with the internet, while people can listen to Sinclair Ferguson sermons with a click and be edified and encouraged, they also can receive information from other ministries, and some that have had great track records.
But it�s easy for the people now that we pastor to have access to things, and so I think that lends itself to the Christian clergy, that is the pastors and elders, to make sure we�re addressing some of these issues maybe more than we used to have to.
Does that make sense?
I absolutely agree, and that�s what I mean by the balance, that my folks are going home and they�re probably inundated with voices, other than their elders, far more, whether it be somebody they click on on the internet, or someone they.
What�s worse, though, is this, and that is when there are men who have been elevated as being trustworthy voices, it�s even far worse and more needed for us. My people trust certain voices that even in the past I�ve told them to trust, and now they�re saying crazy things.
So it�s multifaceted, what we�re dealing with right now.
Tom, before we get into specifics, let�s talk a little bit about just the general drift. Of course, in the day of Spurgeon, it was the downgrade controversy, and of course, people start off well, and then for whatever reason, they�re tired, they�ve got a big staff, they can�t keep up with everything, they become more liberal, somebody in their life changes a theological position, so they want to continue to love them, so they change or soften on it.
I guess there�s lots of reasons why it happens, but it seems to me these days, with large evangelical ministries, they seem to be cutting corners theologically and philosophically faster than they used to.
Do you have a reason for this, by your own observation, in your opinion?
Of why there�s such a rapid shift taking place?
Yes, just in general, with these larger organizations.
Yeah, I think that�I would say there are probably many, many reasons why it�s taking place. Let me try some charitable reasons, I think, that are not good excuses or good reasons, but to try to think of it.
I think some people are dealing with issues in their own personal lives. Maybe there�s someone at the beginning to see that the position that they held ten years ago that they could hold. I do think that there are a lot of people who do have a heart of saying, �Hey, we want to�.
There are a lot of people adopting the culture�s language, actually, so I do believe we need to be clear. I think we have to be careful about what we say and be biblical. A lot of damage being done.
Well, Tom, thank you for that overview, and I wanted to lead in with that because, of course, our Twitter faces, as it were, I think both yours and mine, via NoCoRadio�s Twitter, may be a little more snarky, may be more direct, may be calling more people out, but that doesn�t really represent the entire ministry that the Lord has either given you or me, but that�s just an aspect of it, and I think with Twitter, by nature, it�s kind of more direct and,.
�Hey, what about this And,. �What about that And so, thank you for that overview. Let's now funnel down a little bit more and talk about your four-part articles, your four-part series on Living Out that was published by James White at AOMin .org.
If our listeners want to read all four of those, and I suggest that they do, AOMin .org, scroll down to the blog and you can read all four of those, Living Out, Part 1, 2, 3, 4. Why did you decide to write that?
Because I�m sure you realized that you were going to receive some flack when you did.
Well, I began to notice problems last spring. It began with, I didn�t even know anything about Living Out. I didn�t know anything about any of these issues. I was with Sam Mulberry. I read his book, God Anti-Gay.
What I was thankful for in that he did make it clear that someone who struggled with this particular sin should not adopt it as their identity in a godly way that is submissive to. To say that both the outward expression of the sin and the inward desire of the sin was sinful.
I do think that the church... Yet, you have Matt Chandler and concerns. I then discussed it because people pointed me there and said, �Well, he is more in line with where we think. Well, when I began reading Living Out, it was the audit that they were giving to make sure that your church is LGBTQ inclusive, that we need to make sure churches are not hurting them as a minority, a sexual minority.
The language that is employed for the victimology and all of these things, rather than using biblical terminology, they were using worldly language to talk about all of this. So I began privately going to people within the SBC, throwing the red flag up, saying, �What is going on here
I received from them publicly embracing Living Out. I went to them privately. All of these within the SBC. I went to people with the ERLC block after roadblock. No one was listening. I said, �Enough is enough.
This is too dangerous. I had people in my church, if he was given, they're going to trust. Before I had to say something, and I only had to say something to my church, I felt I needed to make the entire SBC aware.
Talking to Tom Buck today on No Compromise Radio. Tom, the one thing I noticed as well, when Banner of Truth also writes an article about it, January 11th, 2019, LGBTQ Plus Audit, it's not like you're the only one out there and you've just got some ax to grind.
When Banner's writing about it, it needs to be dealt with as well. Excuse me. Tell me a little bit more about the general consensus that many evangelicals have. How could you write this when you're causing upset, you haven't gone to them personally, Matthew 18 is quoted so that you have to go do this, that, and the other.
The thing is, you have done a lot of that stuff, but still, isn't that just a false canard to say, �You better go talk to them and don't take this public when Living Out has made it public, and Nine Marks has made it public, Ravi Zacharias has made it public, Southern Seminary and a lot of other places, it seems like they're all endorsing in one form or another, the ministry of Sam Albury, which means they're endorsing Living Out, right?
Absolutely. I mean, the clearest connection in the SBC was, we can talk about he's removed overnight, it was removed on today. Russell Moore specifically said that these resources, this was on the Living Out website, he said these resources, he categorized them as being within the Southern Baptist Convention by actually having them hosting the Living Out conferences in their churches and helping facilitate that.
I think that I took a clip from something that someone said, and I think that when people begin to say that if someone says something, and I think that's even more important than a 30-minute speech and then privately that I went to people, they continue to write back to defending Sam Albury.
They told me, well, we've talked to Sam and here's what he said. We talked to Sam and here's what he said. We talked to Sam, he said, you're misunderstanding. So I feel like I already had a good legitimate reason to go public.
These individuals, they were defending Sam, saying that this is what he's saying, therefore I think that me going public is, if Sam's not listening to them, why would he listen to me?
Tom, before we go to specifics on the Living Out website and your article that has pretty much debunked it and exposed it, what about the personal attacks? So first, you're going to post these things, Part 1, 2, 3, 4, which I think was wise to stretch that out some and let people think about it.
But what about the personal attacks? I'm wondering why they want to attack you short of, you know what, we've got to destroy the messenger. And then also explain to our audience a little bit with a G3 tie-in so you can make yourself clear regarding that issue and what you said on the platform.
Well, I think that people want to kill the messenger for a variety of reasons, but I think that for some people it's just, hey, this is unkind. We shouldn't say things that are unkind. You know, the fruit of the spirit doesn't include, you know, the way that they want to express kindness.
It's ridiculous how they, niceness, I think is probably the word. They want to equate kindness with being niceness. What's not nice is if you call someone. I do believe there are people that want to discredit what I say because they don't want to deal with the substance of it.
People probably feel that there's an agenda behind it to just go after me that knows me or follows me, knows that I do not have hijacking of the pro-life movement. At the G3 conference, I made a statement publicly, speaking passionately, and I was calling out Russell Moore by name and the fact that he, I believe, he's a political operative in the way that he, a variety of issues to shift what the convention thinks.
I mean, everybody knows that. I mean, that's not a, to whom I did vote, but pro-life issue, equated prison, pro-life issue is prison in the ERLC issue. That's what I was saying at G3. So what I said there is this.
I said that I, I've had ERLC, in, for those in the SBE, come to me every day, believes that animal rights is, they can't be trusted on that issue.
Talking to Tom Buck today on No Compromise Radio. You can follow Tom on Twitter. It's at Tom Buck, right? That's correct. All right. Tom, one of the things I've noticed in evangelicalism especially is this mantra that people use.
We want to be known for what we're for and not what we're against. I'm preaching through the book of Hebrews on Sunday mornings here at Bethlehem Bible Church. And one of the things I've noticed is the writer, the author of, to the book of Hebrews, and by the way, just to let you know, Tom, the author is not Mary.
Some people say the author's Mary, but that's not quite right. And that actually, there is someone that believes that, but. For Miller or Quillen? And he is for the supremacy of Christ Jesus. He is for Christ Jesus' great high priestly ministry.
And that means he's against the most beloved, the apple of the eye for those Jews. And that is the priestly system and the temple and everything that goes along with it. He is against that. And they, who are the recipients of that letter, can quickly discern what he's for and what he's against.
And so to me, with propositional truth, whether it's Paul or Peter or our Lord Jesus, when you're for righteousness, you're against sin. When you're for truth, you're against error. And I just find this whole mantra, the tone police, and you shouldn't try to police everyone and you should tone it down.
I just think it does not hold any water at all. When we, and I think you as well, are in particular concerned about the purity of the Lord's church. We don't care what happens to Mike Ebendroth or Tom Buck or anything like that.
It doesn't matter. But the Lord's church, she is worthy to stand up for and take the heat for. So anyway, I just want to commend you for taking the shots. Was it not Spurgeon that said, if they knew our real sins and problems, the critique and criticism would be a lot worse?
Well, absolutely. And let me address what you just said about that is for and against. It is easy to get caught up in that. It sounds so good, doesn't it? But yet, let's just take an easy example. If we're for our children, then we're against anything that could threaten our children, hurt our children.
So let's just bring this down to a very simple thing that we see that we can use to illustrate this in everyday life. There are people today, and they're very concerned, and rightly so, about everything about their children.
They want to make sure that everything that they buy, their children couldn't harm them. They want to make sure that everything they eat, they want to make sure that, you know, we have organic this, organic that, because we want to protect the health of our children.
Recalls, we want to make sure that. And there are parents who will read the ingredients of every box of Cheez-Its and will get online to make sure that every toy, that there hasn't been a recall, that can't hurt or harm their children because they care for them.
They want to be against what can harm them. But they don't care about what's written at Living Out and what could not only harm their children if they go there if they're same-sex attracted, but could harm every other person that they don't even know.
So it's absolutely absurd. If we're going to check the ingredients on a Cheez-It box to make sure that it's not going to harm our child physically, we ought to be caring enough about what's on Living Out of whether it could damn one of our children's soul to hell because they become confirmed in their orientation and begin to live that way.
Amen. Well put.
Let's now move, Tom, to the series of articles, Living Out articles, that are posted on aomin .org. So you're going to get me in trouble. You get James in trouble. What are you doing? Anyway, we're going to address those issues.
So let's start at a high level. In summary, at kind of like the distilled form, what's the main issue that you have with the Living Out site?
The main issue I have with their site is the fact that they give counsel and they direct people in how to respond to the sin struggles of their life that does not teach to mortify those desires, that tries to, whether it be philosophical hoops or it be whatever it may be, to tell them that there's other ways that they can deal with these things rather than radically seeking to mortify that desire in their life.
Tom, as I read 1 Corinthians chapter six, verse nine and following, it says, or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Of course, the Corinthians were know-it-alls and they thought they knew everything.
And so Paul really presses them. And then he says, do not be deceived. And the reason why he says that is because it's easy to be deceived. And then he goes on to say, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.
There's actually two Greek words there that the ESV combines into one, I think, sadly. But nonetheless, nor thieves, nor greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And then, of course, those glorious words that Paul writes that are true for every kind of sinner, whether it's an unrighteous sin or self-righteous sins and everything in between, and such were some of you.
And then he gives that language of just the benefits of the Lord Jesus in his work and what he does, the Lord Jesus, to sinners. He washes them. He says, you are washed, you are sanctified, and you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
And then he goes on to talk about sexual sin. And he says in verse 18, flee from sexual immorality. He talks about why it's so bad. Both you and I rejoice that Sam and the living out people, well, I don't know if I can speak for the living out people, but Sam certainly addresses that homosexuality is sinful and can be forgiven and the Lord Jesus can cleanse that.
We're not arguing about that, are we? No, not at all. So what's the real argument when you talk about mortifying and what do they want to place the person who says, I'm a Christian, I'm not going to practice homosexuality, but I'm not going to then get married to someone of the opposite sex, maybe like a Rosario Butterfield.
We're just going to kind of be content to live in this realm of we won't be homosexuals in our sexual practice, but we can still live with some kind of lifestyle that's associated with homosexuality. Is that what they're saying?
No, I don't think that's what they're saying specifically. I mean, if we just deal with what they're saying, let's just take the same sex attracted person saying that there are more ways, potential ways to deal with this responding to these issues than just flee from sexual immorality.
So let's give an example. The first article I dealt with was, what do you do if you have a same sex attracted couple who is sexually active and practicing the homosexual lifestyle and they get saved? Do they have to quit living together?
I think you and I would say unequivocally, yes, they should stop living together. This is no brainer. This is something you do not need an article on. You can tweet. You can accomplish that in a tweet.
You may have to have some nuance to help the person walk through that, obviously, and explain to that individual. But as far as giving an answer to that, it does not require a lengthy article. But what they do is they begin to introduce emotionally charged issues like, what if they have a child together?
And obviously they even skip over the fact that they couldn't have a child through the natural means. They've adopted a child and introduced that child into a godless situation, teaching that child that homosexuality is a good and profitable way to live and an OK way to live.
So they never address that. They just introduce it for an emotionally charged issue. And then they say, well, if they're together, maybe they could continue to live together and they could experience intimacy that is non-sexual.
Because we're all meant to experience intimacy. You don't want to break this, this quote unquote family up. There's other ways to address it, saying this relationship is an abomination before God. And every single sign of that relationship needs to be admitted.
It doesn't need to take love. And it's going to apply that truth to a physical and unobserved.
I think every one of our listeners, Tom, would say if there was a man and a woman living together, they're not married. They're fornicating. They both come to faith. Our counsel would not be the revoice type of living out counsel that was being stay together and still do this, that and the other.
I think of an illustration that's a true one. There was a brother and sister in Russia and they slept together and there was a baby involved. And then they decided they would just move away and act like a married couple and raise the child and still be together.
They got saved and went to the pastor and the pastor gave the right advice. Listen, you can both see the child. Obviously, the child needs a mom and a dad, but you don't live together. You don't act this way.
You have to renounce this because this is improper and wrong and sinful. And you need to run from this. And why would we give that couple that advice to fornicators, that advice? But we now don't give that advice to people who have been homosexually involved.
It just does not make any sense to me pastorally.
Well, I'll tell you why they would give the advice, I think. I think that they're giving the advice because they know that there is not an option that we would have for that other couple. That other couple can move out, not live together, and then get married and live together, creating a level of sympathy, which may be something we at least need to have a tender heart towards, that these two men or two women don't ever have the ability to get married.
And so, family up, that can never be reunited or never be made right by coming back together. So they're playing on that sympathy, I think, and they're giving, and that's why these categories are being created that have never been there before.
Because they're saying, what do we do with that? Well, what we do with that is we obey scripture. And we believe that the power of the gospel has not only the ability to change their hearts, but also the ability to comfort them.
The God of all comfort can comfort them even in that affliction that they're going to feel from doing what's right in carrying out full repentance. So I think that's why a lot of people are saying that.
Don't you feel this situation that this couple can never be able to live together, but the other couple you can tell to get married. So I think that's what. I think that's exactly right. By the way, this is my show.
So I ask you the questions. Just kidding. Well, people say that when it comes to Tom Buck, it's his way or the highway.
Well, when I took my biblical counseling classes at seminary, and I'm sure when you had your classes, one of the things that they drove into our minds was make sure you tell people that you're dealing with, that there's hope.
If you do things the Lord's way, you sit down with a Christian man or a woman or a couple and they're struggling and you say, you know what? There's hope if you do things in light of who you are in Christ and for his glory, guilt, grace, gratitude, and there's hope for you, right?
There's maybe that hope is only eternal hope, but there's hope for you. I think if we tell people what living out is telling them, there's really no hope for a temporally fulfilled life. And I'll prove it by saying with the church audit, the living out audit, number 10, quote, no one would be pressured into expecting or seeking any healing or change that God has not promised any of us until the renewal of all things.
True, false, not sure. I know people don't like it and some people can say experientially, well, I could never have an attraction sexually towards the opposite sex because I am born homosexual and I'm going to stay that way.
And even though I'm forgiven and I'm not going to act out on it, I could never be attracted. I look at somebody like Rosaria Butterfield. I'm sure she initially didn't say when she got saved, I'm attracted to men.
But correct me if I'm wrong. I think she's a pastor's wife and has several children. And I think and I know people are going to blister me for this, but I think God can give new appetites for lots of different things.
For instance, I used to hate the Bible. I now love the Bible. I used to love people for what they could give to me. And now I can love them in a sacrificial way. What I used to love, I hate. And what I hate, I now love by the power of the grace of God.
I think living out is saying you can, you know, you're just going to be this way the rest of your life and you can't act out on it, which further exacerbates the problem because these people don't have the gift of singleness.
And so they have sexual desires and they have no way to exercise those sexual desires. I think that's going to be a disaster. Am I right?
Am I thinking rightly, Tom? I think you're thinking exactly right. And this is, I mean, this is a lot to talk about because there's so much that is there. But even with what you said about gift of singleness, I'm hearing them talk about someone who is same-sex attracted, becomes a Christian who continues to have the same sex attraction to desire that they're saying, well, I have the gift to sing.
I must have to have the gift of singleness since I can't act on this. So they're even now defining gift of singleness to include someone who has a desire that can't be mortified. And that's an issue as well.
But yeah, you're absolutely right. When I've dealt and I've dealt with multiple people that I never called it same-sex attracted, but because that's a new terminology, but I would talk about those who struggle with the desires of home.
And I've dealt with multiple people in my ministry that way. And I have encouraged them to mortify that desire that they don't have that desire at all and would transform their unnatural desire for one that is natural.
Now, I also tell them, I'm not promising that that'll happen overnight. I'm not promising that, I'm not even promising that'll ever happen. But you're going to continue, you need to continue to battle against the outward expressions of that sin.
And you also need to continue to pray and battle against the inward desire. And that Colossians chapter 3, verse 5, Paul says, put to death what is earthly in you. Now, there's five words that he gives there.
All of them are modifying or moving further closer to the heart from the first one, which is the outward expression of sexual immorality. Then he moves towards the heart to eventually say, this is all idolatry.
But in the middle of that is evil desire. So Paul's saying, put to death the evil desire. Well, how is a desire to be attracted to someone of the same sex, which is unnatural, which did not exist before the fall?
How is that not an evil desire? If it is an evil desire, then it has to be mortified. We should have be gracious to our brothers and sisters as they battle against that and seek to put to death what is earthly in them.
But to tell them that they shouldn't do that is wrong and unbiblical. I am being told secondhand by friends that he does not agree, or that he does agree with what I've just said right now, that they do need to seek to put to death.
If that's true, I'm praying that he'll come out and say that. And if he doesn't come out and say that, then we have bigger issues.
Tom, let's have a couple of quotes. I'll read a couple of quotes that you brought up in your articles on AOMN .org, that if a person's listening and they're thinking, you know what, maybe Mike and Tom, they just have an ax to grind and there's discernment ministry and blogging.
I don't know who could listen to these quotes that are on the Living Out website and somehow say, you know what, they need to stay up there and this is right and this is good and this is healthy and this is Christ honoring.
One of the men who coordinate that website, Living Out, we've got Ed Shaw, Sean Doherty and Sam Albury in reverse order. Here is Doherty in an article, quote, holding back from sexual intimacy doesn't spell an end to physical intimacy, not for a moment.
There are wonderful ways to be physically close to other people without being sexually close to them. We hug and kiss our friends and relatives in non-sexual ways. We hold hands with children. Some people love to play fight, especially guys, question mark.
My sons love to do this with me. Personally, I'd rather prefer to cuddle them, but I have to play fight with them because it is a way they give and receive physical affection. None of these things necessarily have anything to do with sex, but they have much to do with physical affection and intimacy.
As St. Paul puts it, greet one another with a holy kiss. Um, I'm not even going to read the rest there. When we, when we say, you know, two men who have been saved and struggle with homosexuality can continue to have physical intimacy and he equates it to a holy kiss.
That rubs me the wrong way.
It should cease. And so we're thankful. And let's clarify for everybody. We're thankful that they say that no homo, no person who is same sex attracted should practice. So we're thankful for that. But what they're doing is they're saying, but you could, even, even for people that have already been sexually active with one another, you could continue to live together without doing the, the sexual part.
And you could have other expressions of physical intimacy. And then he uses wonderful, beautiful things that we, uh, experience in church life and family life to then say, well, they could be doing all of those things without crossing the line of doing the other things.
However, earlier in that article, I think it's that same article. He says that as they work to do this, there'll be trial and error periods, which means that you're going to sometimes slip and do some of the sexual stuff while you're trying to figure out all the other stuff you could do that's not sexual.
But he says it's worth it to be able to keep this family together. That's repulsive. And he's taking something that's beautiful and pure and wonderful, like a church love for one another with a holy kiss and family intimacy between a father and their children and trying to transport that into this relationship that's herded and, uh, and godless and figuring out a way to be a halfway house to get them to be able to still live together and experience that kind of intimacy.
I find that gross.
Well, that's exactly right. And what happens is we forget about the heart. And our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 5, you have heard that it was said you shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
And then he gives some very radical advice to make sure that sin is dealt with. Tom, I'm sure you do the same thing that I do. I have to be very, very careful because I know how wicked I still am and the sin that still dwells in me.
I am very careful how I deal with people of the opposite sex. I don't. When I walk into the church building, I don't hug the secretary. I don't. When I do hug people on Sunday morning in the sanctuary, whether that's a grandma or someone else of the opposite sex, I'm very careful on how I hug.
Right. It's an upper body hug. I'm careful who I go in the car with. I do not counsel ladies alone. I will always bring my wife in there. I have to set guards up because I know my own heart. I know people that were more godly than I am have fallen into that.
And I also have to be careful about the other person thinking about them. While I might want something, I think, oh, I can't have them fall. And what I was thinking about is with these people here who want all the physical intimacy, I have to be very careful.
I don't say to other women, you look pretty today, even though I might think it because I just don't need to do that. I say that to grandmas. Oh, you look nice today. I say it to a lady who's getting married and I'm officiating and in front of her groom, I say, you look beautiful today.
But those words and those actions are reserved to my daughters only. You look pretty. I love you. I'm proud of you. And physical things to my wife and my wife alone. Do you think I'm going too far when I talk this way or think this way?
No, I do the same thing that you're saying, maybe not exactly to every single detail, but I fear myself more than I do anything else. I fear my own heart. And I don't think we, what strikes me about the advice they give is they don't have a healthy concern or a healthy fear of fear of sin itself.
They don't have a healthy fear of sin itself. They don't have a healthy fear of the depravity that still lurks in the hearts of all of us. And I don't understand that. So let me give you an illustration.
I think this will resonate with people. Um, I didn't put it in the article that I couldn't do a 12 week series. Uh, well, I could have done a 12 week series. If you go to living out, you could have. Um, but here's the illustration I would use.
Let's not say a couple living together, but let's use their same principles in another situation. Let's say we have a man in the church who God forbid commits adultery with another woman. And let's say they repent fully.
And then we started to say, but you know, we don't want your brotherly sisterly affection. And you know, you're going to probably have a trial and error period. You know, we understand that might happen, but you've got to find a way to be able to hug each other when you see each other, uh, give each other a holy kiss when you see each other.
Uh, you need to still have intimacy that we would want to have with other brothers and sisters in Christ. Even though you've slept together in the past, committed adultery together in the past trial and error period to figure out how you can now continue to.
You would drive me out of the church saying you're nuts and you're not worthy of being a pastor, given that kind of counsel, but there's exactly no difference in what I just said and what living out gives to that couple.
Tom, don't you think that, uh, at least it seems to me, in my opinion, that the church is wanting to make sure they don't just ostracize the homosexual community. I don't know if they don't want to get picketed.
I don't know if they want to come across as nice and kind and, and, uh, loving sinners of all stripes, but it seems like, you know, it's like with this particular topic, we, we lose our sanity as church leaders because we don't want to maybe offend, uh, unregenerate homosexuals, or we want to just be extra careful and we walk around with kit gloves.
But as we do that, then we throw out our biblical principles that we would use for two fornicators or, or any other kind of sinner. Does that, does that seem right?
I think, yes, I think there's a variety of reasons that people are doing it. Some think it's a better form of evangelism. Some think, some are reacting, uh, to years of mistreatment that's taken place in how homosexuals have, some, I think are reacting because they have, as I said earlier, they have a family member, maybe even a child that's struggling with these particular issues.
And they're wanting to keep, uh, keep the church from quote unquote, driving away. Um, you know, um, I think that a lot of that's going on. Um, and I think it's wrong because we need to speak the truth, speak the truth in love.
Paul said, we, we, uh, make everyone mature in Christ, Colossians 128, by proclaiming Christ, warning and teaching them. So we, we cannot draw back from warning people. We can't just say we're going to teach, but we, you're not going to warn.
We shouldn't just warn and, and, and not teach. We've got to be doing both of those things, but if we fail to do both of those things, they will not become mature in Christ as Paul says.
Tom, we probably should wrap up pretty soon. And so let me read you the quote that, uh, you put on your article, uh, in your article that to me is the worst quote of all. And this is the one that I think Sam needs to take down immediately.
And why he has not, I don't know. Someone told me he's going to address your articles this weekend. Uh, I don't know what he could do besides taking things like this down. Uh, one of the living out, um, directors, his last name, Shaw said this part of this, I think a growing is a growing realization that my response to male beauty is at one level, very natural in desiring a beautiful man and wanting to become one with him.
I am responding to real beauty as all human beings tend to whenever, wherever they discover it in any overwhelming form, end quote. And you've got that quoted on your article. Now, when I look at a girl and I say to myself, do you know what, uh, she's pretty and I don't do a second look and I don't look at inappropriate places, um, and just move on, just, it's time to move on.
I don't say to myself, Oh, she's an ugly old hag. I think, Oh yeah, she's pretty. That's a pretty girl. But I've tried to train myself and my son, uh, and other men that I disciple here at the church that, you know what, it's the second look and it's the lingering look.
And it's the look that would say, do you know what? She's so pretty. I want to become one with her. Um, that's sin. According to the Lord Jesus, I D I have to guard against that. And that's, that's when it goes wrong.
It doesn't go wrong. Or even if I said that guy's handsome and I've said to men before, you know, you know, you're, you're one handsome man. Um, but now with any, sorry. No, but this whole thing is this.
He uses natural and desire. This is the stuff that needs to be repented of, not put on a website. And therefore, whether it's white horse in Ravi Zacharias, nine marks, Southern Baptist, uh, uh, and there's a bunch of other people who are promoting this one.
Look at that. It makes my jaw drop. I look at someone of the opposite sex and I'd like to become one with them. And if that's not my wife, it is in every single case, a gross freight, uh, uh, flagrant violation of, of, of purity and, uh, how the Lord has ordained the marriage bed is not to be defiled.
Hebrews chapter 13. But now with a guy, I can do that. If I'm, if I'm homosexual, did I read that rightly?
Now you read it in the other way. I mean, I keep, keep being told it's misinterpretation, but I'll tell you this much. If I were to give that excuse to my wife, it wouldn't just be my jaw to drop. So, um, the, the bottom line is, is that these answers they're being given are circumventing scripture and they're going to, why do we need to pull from C. S. Lewis?
Who's talking about beauty that God created for all to observe that's objective. It's the beauty of a sunset. The beauty of, I think that he's talking about when you see something that God has created for everybody to see that is beautiful, you want to be a part of that.
You feel yourself drawn into that. Okay. He, C. S. Lewis, wasn't talking about sexual things there. And as he's trying to take that philosophical, he doesn't need the words of C. S. Lewis in that situation.
He needs the words of Christ that said, cut off your hand, pluck out your eye. That's the issue. And that's what I keep putting, uh, pulling people back to the living outside is light on scripture. When it comes to these types of things, sometimes totally absent in these articles of scripture and they go with all these types of argumentation.
So this is extremely dangerous that you would use that kind of language that I want, you know, I see that I want to be united with this man, which we know what that means that ought to, I mean, where's the yuck factor at all?
Tom, if, I mean, it's all over the places where it is, but, but I just thought I'd ask this question before you kind of make some summary statements. If I, uh, knew my son was attending a church where there was a pastor that said, you know what, uh, I used to be homosexual, uh, in my practice, I'm no longer doing that.
I'm not, I'm, I'm still attracted to other, the same sex and I'm not going to get married, but now I'm an elder or, you know, a leader. Would I want my son doing one-on-one discipleship there? And I don't think it's a, I don't think it's an unfair question to ask.
I love to disciple men. We have a group of 10 men here at the church. Every Sunday morning we meet and we're teaching them, uh, how to study the Bible and how to preach the Bible and do evangelism, and sometimes I'll meet with men privately.
Do I want someone who says, you know what? I have, I don't have the gift of singleness, at least according to the Bible, uh, and I'm going to meet with someone else. I mean, they don't want me to ask that question and they're going to say, I'm really, you know, uh, unkind for asking it, but I would tell my son, I don't think he should be meeting privately at the guy's house with somebody when, when this is a, uh, when this is going on in his mind, when he has no way to, uh, act out his desires, that is, he's just going to burn with passion and I don't think he should be around him.
Am I crazy?
I certainly think that is a question that we're going to have to answer. Uh, so let me answer it on two different levels. One is my concern about, uh, an elder who is there, and I, I voiced this to Sam, we had a good conversation about it.
Uh, I voiced this to him and I don't understand how someone who is an elder who's required to disciple younger men or men, period, that's the job responsibility, um, if he, uh, struggles with this particular desire.
I don't, I don't see, I don't think that there's wisdom in that, the very bottom level of the discussion. Now, Sam Albury came back and said that his answer to that is that we all need accountability, that he has accountability and that he chooses to relate to that person who needs counseling as a biological male and doesn't allow his, and how he relates to that person.
Now, here's what I think he means by that. I think what he means is I'm a biological male. God has ordained that biological males only be related physically or sexually with, I choose when I meet with another male to relate to him as a biological male, and even if I have a level of attraction, I choose to not allow that attraction to control how I relate to him, but cannot do that.
Yeah. But do you know what, you know what I would do, Tom? I would not counsel privately a woman who had been a lesbian or who is a lesbian and struggles with that and say to myself, I don't have to be attracted to her even though she's pretty because she's a lesbian and she doesn't have any attraction to me, a man, she's only attracted to women.
So therefore it's okay for me to counsel her and disciple her privately.
Oh, I, I agree with that. And that's my question that I was, have been asking all along. I asked this question six or nine months ago and I've not been able to get a legitimate answer now. I'm thankful for what Sam Albury, at least he answered it.
And I have appreciated that about Sam. Sam will answer the questions, uh, many of them when you ask, I may not agree with his answers, but he interacts with you on it. Let me say one other thing about that in this category though, and I do think this is a fair question that we're going to have to figure out how to answer.
I had a person ask me, but what about, okay, if, if I'm the same sex attracted male, does that mean, and I'm not an elder, but does that mean I can't ever disciple anyone? I can't ever disciple another male person, uh, because I'm same sex attracted.
Does that mean, and I haven't, you know, been able to, uh, that traction has not been altered or changed. Should I never disciple another man?
Well, when I, uh, my initial reaction is, uh, if you believe the methodology and philosophical ideas that underpin a living out, the answer is no, you should never disciple. Uh, but if you have a different approach to sanctification and isn't that really what this big picture is about?
Uh, I have a book called five views of sanctification and are we Keswick in our sanctification are Wesleyan, uh, you know, holiness, uh, reformed. What does the Bible really say about sanctification? And so to me, Tom, years ago, the big sanctification debate came out and how does it relate to justification and, and two separate categories, but one follows the other, Tulian, et cetera, et cetera.
To me, this is just one more, uh, attack slash, uh, an area we need to address when it comes to the doctrine of biblical sanctification. If we got that right, I think we could then answer those type of questions that come up in pastoral ministry because we'd have the right framework.
I think that's spot on. And I appreciate you saying that because I think a lot of people think that there's, you know, only two positions we either go with, you know, or the rest of us are on a, uh, Hey, you're just going to hell because you have these desires.
Even if you are not acting out, out upon them. I, I think that what we're trying to say here is that someone, even a Christian after they've professed Christ, renounced the lifestyle, admitted and confessed that the desire that they have for the same sex is rooted in, in itself and in an evil desire that needs to be mortified.
Uh, that even if they continue to battle with that, and even if they continue to seek to mortify that desire, we're not saying, uh, we're not saying that those individuals are headed to hell, but there are some who say that.
Uh, and we certainly as pastors need to lovingly come alongside of those who are seeking to be transformed and sanctified fully, uh, from every temptation and every sin that they have got to be dealing with what the very nature of this same sex attraction is.
It's an in, it's a disorder desire rooted in the fall and mortified by God's grace. And until we can say that, we can't even begin to have these other conversations about how we, how that works out and how that's applied in a day to day basis.
Great, uh, analysis, Tom. And I think they're also afraid, uh, the people on the other side of this argument are afraid of if they do say that what's next and what's next is in the paradigm of, uh, the new Testament is you put off and you put on.
And, and I think they're afraid that if you have to put off slash mortify, what do you put on? And I think they're trying to put on things, uh, that do not include, I might have to marry somebody, uh, that I might not be attracted to.
Uh, but that's, that's maybe for another show. Uh, uh, I almost called you Sam. Tom, anything you'd like to say as we wrap things up, something you wanted to, you were, you were hoping I ask you, but I didn't ask you summary statement.
Any, anything else as we close?
I think that the biggest thing I would say is pastors that are out there listening to this, we have got to be, uh, working at developing our understanding on these things, theologically and quickly, because we are going to need to be helping our church members think through this people who are coming out of a world that has a philosophy that endorses this lifestyle endorses it.
And we've got to be prepared to give answers that are loving, that are pastoral, that are biblically sound, that are willing to come alongside of those who find themselves struggling with sin in a way that gives full obedience and allegiance to our Lord.
What we cannot afford to do are two things. We cannot afford to capitulate to the culture and just give into this language and give into this the way that they are portraying. On the other side, we cannot give into simply just ignoring this and sticking in our, sticking in our heads.
We have got to be prepared to deal with this in the most godly, pastoral, loving and biblically.
Wise words from Tom Buck. If you'd like to hear his preaching, you can go to FBCLindale .com, that's F-B-C-L-I-N-D-A-L-E dot com. Or if you'd like to read the four articles, you can go to aomin .org, is it .org?
Yeah, I think it's .org. And if you want to follow Tom, although those, that's, that's the nice side of Tom is the Lindale side. And then you've got the writing side of Tom on AOMIN, and then you've got the kind of the Twitter Tom, right?
Add to Tom Buck. See, Tom, you should do what I do. And that is, you know, if you hear Mike Ebendroth, hopefully you think he's preaching Christ from Hebrews. He's a pastor. So then I just hide behind the no compromise moniker for my screeds online.
See, that's how I do that. Tom, thanks for being a guest today on No Compromise Radio. I want you to know in the 2 ,500 shows that I've done, this is the longest show that I've ever done. One hour and seven minutes, but it's an important topic and you're articulate regarding that.
I thank you for your courage and your desire to hold the line when it comes to biblical fidelity. And I hope our listeners today, even if they disagree with us, they can hear the tone of this as two pastors who want the best for those who struggle with all kinds of sins and who desire the purity of the Lord Jesus's church.
Thanks again, Tom Buck. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Ebendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.
Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.