Convo with "Church of Christ" EXILES | w/ Everett Young ...an old friend of @AaronGallagherTV@GBNTV

Contending for the Gospel of Grace Against Legalism

Well, hello and welcome to The Apologetic Dog, where it's our heart's desire to contend for the truth, the gospel of grace, and we do this with love and grace. We stand firmly on God's word at every point and turn, and we rival against those ideologies, that pagan philosophy that tries to couch itself within a biblical worldview.

The Apologetic Dog is grounded in 1 Timothy 6 .20 that says, Oh, Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you, and avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge. Knowledge is important, and knowledge presupposes truth, and where do we get truth?

The word of God, and so thank you for joining The Apologetic Dog. My name is Jeremiah Nortier, and I serve as a pastor and elder at 12 .5 Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas, so if you're in the Northeast Arkansas area, please come check us out.

We'd love for you to come visit and be a part of our fellowship. So today, I have a co-host with me, The Fishbone. Trey Fisher, where are you at, man?

I want to talk about something real quick. You know you got a lot going on. You're married. You've got the apologetic puppy at the house waking you up every night crying, and you've got stuff like this going on, bam, a free will debate with AK Richardson, who happens to be a Church of Christer, right?

Yeah, that's a little bit more on the DL, but AK came to the James White event at 12 .5 Church back in the fall, and we got to talking. I've seen the debates that he's done on Donnie's channel at Standing for Truth and Marlon's channel The Gospel Truth, and I went up to him, Trey, and I said, AK, when are we going to square off, man?

And he goes, well, let's debate about Calvinism. I was like, all right, there's five points. What are you going to do, limited atonement? And he goes, no, let's do free will. I said, let's do it. So he told me he wanted to make it live in person, so it'll be at 12 .5 this month, June 24th, which is a Saturday at 6 p .m., so I just want to tell your audience, if you want to come be a part, message me.

We can reserve a seat. We can house to about 130, but it will be live streamed at the Apologetic Dog YouTube channel as well.

That's what I'm talking about.

Can I say one more thing?

Hurry up, dog. People.

I have 1 ,000 subs, so you can send in Super Chats, and we're going to give Super Chats priority, and so me and AK, even though we're going to be in person, we will still answer Super Chats that come from YouTube, so I want to encourage people to go and support the channel in that way.

Well, I just want to say I can't get Super Chats just yet.

Not yet. Hey, you're on your way. You have a few hundred subscribers. I'm really proud of you, Fishbump.

Hey, whatevs, dude. I'm in it to go to Nineveh. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

I've got a buddy who's been taking me there, but look, you've got this one going on, too. What? Another baptismal regeneration, but this is with some Baptist?

I think an Anabaptist, and someone commented when Marlon posted this. They said, Jeremiah, you're the CEO of Baptism Debates. I was like, I kind of like that ring to it. So, Trey, the hard thing about baptismal regeneration is there's a lot of different groups that say they believe in baptismal regeneration and mean different things.

Like I debated a Lutheran earlier this year, I think it was January, and it essentially came down to their version of baptismal regeneration. So this is coming up in August, so keep this on your calendar.

Here's what I'm looking forward to. So this next one reached out to me, and it was kind of an honor. I mean, it was a really good conversation, it really was. It's been getting a little shady ever since, but our initial conversation was really good, and he asked me to come over to Dallas and debate him, and I said, man, you've got to get in line because right now I'm doing this stuff with Aaron Gallagher.

We were supposed to do, me and Aaron were supposed to do, I mean, he called. He wanted to do baptism, faith, and then total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

But I think he's bowing out of the election, predestination, irresistible grace part. We were supposed to do them weekly, and they were supposed to be discussions. He turned them into these debates where they had to be timed and all this stuff, it's like, whatever.

And I even told him, I said, man, are you going to back out of these because I'm worried that you will? He's like, no, I'm not. But I think he's out. He says he'll do it months and months later from now.

He's so busy.

Well, you better let Gallagher know that I'm ready for me and him to square up.

He won't do it. He ain't going to debate you. I wish he would, but I think he's scared. But this guy right here, when I told him he'd have to wait, I said, look, I can get the apologetic dog. He's like, no, I want you.

I'm like, why do you want me? I said, because I feel like I'm the most hated guy in the church of Christ. And he said, well, I would say you're number two. Number one is still Mike Slakedo. I was like, wow.

Okay.

That is a badge of honor, sir.

Yeah, I do. But here it is. Bam.

Michael Hysall. Your stepdad, a .k .a.

That is your real dad. So when are y 'all going to be doing this? October of 2023?

Yeah, we don't have a date set in stone, but me and him have been talking. We like the month of October. We did talk about him potentially flying me out. To Texas and us doing the whole thing. But the more we talked about it, I think he was interested in coming to Arkansas.

And I just said, hey, that'll be a really good deal because we can film it at twelve five church and it'll be awesome. So he just said, let's let's kind of pursue that route. So people just be be on the lookout for a date set in stone.

But this if you notice, Trey, this is the same proposition or the same question.

I was looking at that topic. I'm like. Most people don't even say that, you know, but I mean, they just come down and say it. So, I mean, hey, good luck.

Water baptism necessary for our justification before God? No.

Oh, but Michael says yes.

Yeah.

It's going to be a showdown.

Have you ever read Acts two thirty eight, Jeremiah?

You know, I thought about flowing over there, but I'm kind of scared of the book of Acts.

Here we go. Here it is. There's your next one. How then shall we live? Eschatology matters. Conference like the this is mine. This is when I should be.

You want to know what, Trey? I blame you. I blame you while I'm speaking at this conference because I was comfortable in my premillennial dispensationism.

Right.

And you're just like you're like hashtag that postmill. And I said, Trey, I need your help because I have some full preterist hyper preterist and you're like unicorns. They don't exist. I said there's two churches in my backyard that are starting to preach it.

And so anyway, you and I started talking about this and lo and behold, now I'm invited to speak on the resurrection of the dead at this awesome conference in September. So this is a little bit ways away, but I want to encourage people to be on the lookout for this conference.

So many amazing speakers. These are pastors, theologians, and we're covering a wide range of topics concerning eschatology.

Church of Christ Exiles and the Purpose of the Interview Series

Good deal. So now you're ready to introduce our guest who this guy reached out to me after, I think, my first conversation with Aaron Gallagher.

Before we bring our guest in, I just want to remind people that we have a Facebook group called Church of Christ Exiles. And so the more you and I started interacting with people coming in after watching our cultish episodes and just other things, you had a fantastic idea and said, Jeremiah, what if we start interviewing these people and hearing their testimonies, how they either want to help Church of Christ people come out and leave the community or those that have left and now they don't know what to do.

And so that's what we're getting to do today.

Yeah. And I mean, my conversations with cultish ever since then, we get phone calls and emails, but especially since the Aaron Gallagher discussions. And I don't think it's coming from my page, I might have like five or seven hundred views on it.

He has like thousands of them. So I would say I think it's from his side that they're hearing these conversations, they're calling. We've had four preachers get out, Church of Christ preachers. Praise God for that.

But anyway, this guy right here, we've become good friends. He's called me, I think, since our first episode, maybe our second. But he has he has a tie with Aaron Gallagher. You want you ready?

Right here. We just bring him in.

Who is this guy? There he is.

Yes, sir.

There he is. Everett.

Everett Young.

He lives up to his namesake, does he not?

Yes. You have the fountain of youth going on over there. I'll say this, Everett, if I shave the beard, I lead the youth group at twelve five and they get mad and say, you better not shave your beard because then you'll look like one of us.

And I'm like, you're right. I'll look about 16 if I shave my beard.

Everett, are you excited about this?

Oh, yeah. Come on.

All right. I'll let look. So here's the deal. If you you have. But if you watch my conversations, I don't have a lot of prep time. I don't I don't have time to prep. I've got a lot going on. So, Jeremiah, I'm sure you got some good interview questions, I'll think of some in a Everett's way.

But how do you want to start this thing off?

Everett, tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do for a living. And I want us to kind of start to transition into your testimony. But where are you from and what do you do?

Everett Young’s Testimony and First Contact with the Church of Christ

Yeah, so I'm from Birmingham, Alabama. I work for an industrial supplier. I'm in sales. But yeah, I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, grew up in a Baptist church, got saved at the age of six, believed, was baptized.

Yeah, I grew up 13 years old, start realizing what it means to be a Christian. In high school, drifted away for about five years. College, God brought me to my knees and made me kiss the sun. As it says in Psalms 102, I believe, and have been radically changed ever since, man.

Nice. That's amazing.

So go ahead and tell them. You want to say roll tide or you want to say Oregon?

Oregon, man.

Oregon.

Don't make me call the hogs over here.

I'll do it.

Stop it. Do they even have a football team? Anyway, back to this. So converted early and God really just tore your heart down and showed you who you really were in college. And you met a guy, somehow, this guy I've been talking to, somehow you got involved with him.

How did that happen?

Yeah, so I first got introduced to the Church of Christ right after God brought me to my knees in my college years. And that's when I came to repentance, full repentance, and laid my life down, followed Jesus with everything I had.

And we were talking one night and he told me he was in the Church of Christ. And I was like, man, what does that mean? He said that you got to repent, you got to be baptized to be saved, got to be baptized into the Church of Christ.

And I was like, okay, that sounds a little off. That doesn't sound like what I've been taught before.

A little spooky.

A little spooky. That was my first introduction. But later on, I was listening to a podcast because I was just seeking the Lord. I was driving around, worship music, podcast. But I was listening to this podcast and it was called The Authentic Christian.

And sounds good.

Yeah, I was agreeing with everything they said, everything they said. And then they started talking about baptism. And I was like, that's a little off. But me not knowing much about the Bible, like I knew what was said in the Bible, but I didn't really know it truly.

I reached out to him and I was like, hey, what is this? Like, I want to know the truth.

What's the truth? Just to be clear, you reached out to Aaron Gallagher?

I reached out to the podcast group. And I think me and Aaron or I think the other guy's name is Trey. I think we switched numbers, started texting back and forth, kind of like me and this Trey.

Did.

Okay, good. It's a different Trey.

Different Trey.

Okay.

But yeah, we started texting back and forth, and that's kind of how our relationship grew. But yeah.

So you started reaching out, you know, this podcast that you heard, The Authentic Christian, and you said you have to be baptized in the church of Christ in order to be this authentic Christian, right?

To truly be saved. So I'm curious, how did that continue to transpire? Did you know eventually you're talking to a guy named Trey or eventually Aaron Gallagher himself?

Hey, can we call this Trey somebody else so people aren't confused who he's talking to here? Let's call him Ronnie. Not that there's anything wrong with Ronnies, but it's not Trey. So you're talking to Ronnie and Aaron.

Go ahead, Gemma.

And so baptism gets brought up. And so that was the thing that they really started pushing. Were you baptized in a church of Christ?

Yeah, I told them I was baptized at seven, and they were like, well, do you know why you were baptized? And I was like, well, because Jesus commanded us to be baptized. And obviously, I didn't know every single implication at seven years old that I knew Jesus commanded us.

But we got on a call, and I think I had the whole cast with me from the Authentic Christian. I think there's three of the guys, me, Aaron, Trey, and the other guys. But we walked through the scriptures, and I had a huge question.

I was like, hey, what is Ephesians 1, 13 through 14 mean in comparison with what you guys are saying? Because it clearly states that when I believe, I'm sealed with the Holy Spirit, and it's the guarantee of my salvation.

So what did they say to that? I'm curious.

They told me to go look at Acts, and they told me when, I think it was Paul went to the Ephesians. They hadn't been baptized into the name of Jesus, and so they really weren't saved. And I'm kind of butchering this, but that was basically the gist of it.

So they would say, so time out. Now, I think they would probably say, we never said that. But your takeaway from their answer to Ephesians 1 was that they weren't quite Christians yet because they hadn't been baptized.

So Ephesians 1 is not written to Christians per se because they hadn't yet been baptized. And I know they would totally say, no, we never said that. But that was your takeaway from what they were telling you?

That was my takeaway. They were—my takeaway is that they were saying since they had not been baptized into Jesus, they'd only known the baptism of John. They haven't received the Holy Spirit, and that's when they received the Holy Spirit is when they got baptized.

But Ephesians 1, 13 through 14 does not say that.

Yeah.

Do y 'all mind if I read the Scripture? I don't know if you're able to pull it up, but I do want to talk about this, and then I want us to make that transition into Acts because I've had very similar conversations that people say, well, what did the saints at Ephesus do, Jeremiah?

And I'm like, I probably got baptized, if I had to guess.

Ephesians 1.

So let's look at Ephesians 1 first with—and I want us to just look at verses 13 and 14 because we know this is addressed to the saints, okay? So, you know, for anybody that communicates that they weren't actually saved yet, well, you've got to deal with the words of Paul.

These are saints, those that are set apart, and the Spirit is very much involved here. So verse 13 says, in him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and like Everett says, believed in him, right?

Firm trust. When we look to pastuo, what it means to truly look upon Christ from a heart of faith. He goes on to say, and we're sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of—Trey, not your glory, but to God's glory, right?

Sully Dale. Gloria, baby.

And here's the other thing I'd like to point out. This word right here, believe, does not mean baptism. It just doesn't. As much as they want you to believe, believe means baptism and everything else in the bucket.

That's just one of the five steps.

It's a synecdoche. It's just a synecdoche.

What have you called a synecdoche before? A get-out-of-jail-free card?

Get-out-of-jail-free card. Everything's a synecdoche. But yes, in him you also, when you heard—I think that they probably—does this ring a bell with you, Acts 19? Does this ring anything with you, what they were talking about, possibly?

And it happened while Paul was at Corinth. Paul passed through the inland, came to Ephesus, right? And he said, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed, right? They said, no, we've never heard of it.

That was John's baptism, right? They received John's baptism, which here's what I always say for a Church of Christ person or a Pentecostal, because both of those fundamentalist groups, both of those restoration groups claim they started in Acts chapter 2, right?

The Church of Christ and Pentecostals. But then they part from there really quick, and they are nowhere close to anybody. But they both say that they're the original Church. But this is the dumbest question ever for either one of those people who have that view is Paul asking, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

Because neither one of those groups believe that you actually receive the Holy Spirit when you believe. They, you know, both say, well, one, the Church of Christ is when you're baptized is when you receive the Holy Spirit, and the Pentecostal is when you're baptized in Jesus' name and speak in tongues is when you receive the Holy Spirit.

So why did he ask, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? Which is a good question, and this is a very proper question to follow up with that when they said they never heard of the Holy Spirit.

He said, and to what then were you baptized? Because you should have heard the name of the Holy Spirit when you were baptized, because we baptize in the authority of Christ, the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

It's another lesson for another day. But is this maybe what they were talking about? You think, Aaron, I mean, Everett?

Yeah, it's for sure the same passage.

But they were correlating that back with Ephesians 1?

They were.

That is so bad to the saints who are in Ephesus, who are faithful in Christ Jesus. So anyway, so you had that conversation. Was that like your first initial conversation that you had with them?

Yeah, that was my first initial conversation I had with them. I think that we had DMed back and forth or texted, but that was like the first initial conversation that we had.

And where to go from there? Were you kind of scratching your head? Were you curious?

I was thinking, yeah, it got me. It got me thinking like really hard because here I am. I'm an infant in Christ. I don't know anything, never even read through the book of Acts before. So I think at that point, all I had read was like John, Matthew, like just the Gospels.

I think that's it. But I knew that it just wasn't right. But I was pretty much convinced that they were right. Holy Spirit inside of me, I can say now, was guarding me from them. But I was pretty much convinced and they sowed seeds of doubt, a thousand different seeds in my head.

Aaron, at one point, we had texted back and forth. I almost drove to a church of Christ and got baptized because I thought I wasn't saved. And he even offered to come down from Tennessee or I think that's where he lived at the time.

But he even offered to come down and baptize me himself. That's just how far it went.

You know, that's where I came from. We had some pretty famous people, way, way more famous than Aaron Gallagher. And that was the sales pitch for a lot of people was like, hey, you come out here and I'll baptize you.

You know, it goes completely against what Paul was saying in Corinthians, right? That why couldn't somebody else baptize you? Why did he need to make the trip?

But anyway, yeah.

So go ahead. So he offered to come down there. So I mean, how long has it been since he offered to come down and baptize you from when you had that first initial conversation?

Maybe a week or two.

Don't know.

It could have been that same week. I really am unsure of the timelines. It's been a couple of years ago, three years ago, probably three years ago. And we had talked back and forth for about two years.

But yeah, I think it wasn't long after we started talking.

So, Everett, I have a question. As you're going through all this, all the seeds of doubt, and I loved how you brought up how the Holy Spirit that guarded you from error. I've been teaching through 1 John, and I'm reminded of how Christians in 1 John 2, we have an anointing that teaches us all truth, brings us to the word, and guards us from the spirit of antichrist, false teachers.

And so I love hearing that from you. And so I'm curious, as you're going through this, this doubt, having to constantly talk with Aaron Gallagher, what really made you put on the brakes and say, OK, I actually don't want to pursue this anymore?

I just knew in my heart that it was wrong. And really, it was the Holy Spirit. Like, I don't have a single Bible verse. I guess Ephesians 1.

Now, let me just go ahead and say this real quick, because you just said that, right? I didn't have a single Bible verse. This is the part where they stop this video, they chop it up, take it completely out of context, because they take the Bible out of context.

So they'll take your words in this video out of context, and they will show this video 10 ,000 times and say, see here, look at him. He says that he didn't have one single verse, right? He didn't have one single verse.

That's what they'll do, right? Not bringing in the context that, at the time, you didn't know the Scriptures that well. You just knew that the Spirit of God was speaking to you, saying, like, this is wrong, right?

But that would be the context, is at that time in your life of your Christian walk, you didn't have a lot of Scripture understanding and memorization and those things. But they chop it up. See, they don't have one verse.

Jeremiah, is that right?

You're right. But what we're going to get into is Everett has been growing in the faith. So I'm really curious to see where you're at now. We've even talked a little bit over Facebook Messenger of how Jesus said, it is finished.

And so that has massive ramifications, right? I've heard a really good illustration. If you look at a masterful art piece, right? The artist has done. We see what it is. If you try to add your own paint and add your artistic flair, you actually take away from the masterpiece.

You know what I mean? It's finished and you ruin it with just a little stroke, a little bit of your own effort of artistic ability. And so this is the thing. We don't add our works to the already perfected work of Christ at Calvary.

And so I loved it when you said that, Everett, when we were messaging earlier. So tell me some more about your journey since then, because you maybe didn't have a whole lot of verses back then, praise God, that something in where we're saying this doesn't feel right.

But now you're probably at a much different place and you can probably articulate some of the problems that you've been able to see with the church of Christ.

Growing in the Faith and Seeing the Problems with Baptismal Regeneration

Yeah, so what I was saying before is like at that time, I didn't have a single Bible verse. I can go back and point to millions or not millions, but lots of different passages.

Chop that up and they'll say, there's no such thing.

Now he's a liar. Maybe a little bit of an exaggerator. But no, I have lots of different passages I can look back now, just because I've been growing in faith. But really, I'm so thankful that I got in touch with Aaron and I got in touch with the people at the Authentic Christian podcast is because it made me search the scriptures, made me read the scriptures and see for myself, just like in Acts that I haven't read, they did the same thing.

At the time.

Right.

Right. You got to be careful when you're dealing with them. I'm not kidding you. They're very legalistic and they'll take everything. And so here's what I want to know. What when you were studying with him for those two years, did it get you?

How did it make you feel in your heart? Like what was in your heart and your mind? What was it? Good? Bad? What was it?

It was terrible.

Struggling with anything?

Yeah. Yeah. So many things I was struggling with. The main thing that I was struggling with is like, what if they're right? Because the Jesus that they know is not the Jesus I know. And there's only one Jesus on the throne and we have to know the right one.

And that was the main thing I was struggling with, is the devil would come at night and he would just whisper on the ear, like, what if they're right? What if they're right? And the Holy Spirit would guard me and point me to this scripture and point me in prayer and confirm that they are not right.

That it is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Amen.

Yeah, Everett, I was going to say, I can relate to something you said there about the being challenged. This has happened a number of times in the past decade of my life, especially putting myself out there and sharing the gospel with people that I meet in the community.

And I had one friend that, you know, I was really talking to him about the gospel of grace and I knew he attended Church of Christ and I knew that they had this understanding that you had to be baptized in order to have your sins washed away because in their mind, it's their past sins.

And so he said, will you be willing to talk with some of my elders? And so you've got to think this is like pre-apologetic dog days. So I was very zealous, but wasn't equipped yet. And so I stepped into an arena that I was challenged majorly.

And I remember I was talking to a few Church of Christ elders. We were all really cordial with one another. We said at the outset, hey, we don't want this to turn bad. Let's just ask questions to one another, ask about verses and how we would understand that.

And in that conversation, they brought up Acts 22, 16. So I don't know if you want to bring that up. This is one of the verses that challenged me personally. Like I remember this elder was just like, it says what it says, it means what it means, right?

And I just remember looking at that, thinking, because I want to read it real quick. Acts 22, 16 says, and now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name. And so I was challenged.

I remember thinking, I don't have an answer right now. That is a good point. I got some studying to do. And so just over time, Everett, I just want to encourage you. I've had similar experiences. God has just shown me the clarity of his word and renewed my heart to trust in Jesus alone, truly in his finished work, in faith, not adding my own works, not my ceremonial baptism, not my works that I continue to do in obedience.

None of those things declare us right before God. And so this verse, Trey and I, we've talked about this a lot. I've done public debates. And so this gets brought up. And what I tell people is this is Ananias declaring the gospel, saying, hey, this is, I'm being faithful to the great commission, baby.

And you need to repent and believe the gospel, Paul. And so earlier in the context, Paul already called upon the name of the Lord. And when I started seeing the context, because context is king, I'm just like, oh, this is a demonstration of faith.

And then how would Paul understand the words of Ananias? We go over to somewhere like Romans 10. And he says, if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart, then you are present tense justified.

Confessing with the mouth is worshiping from the heart. And that manifests with not only what you say, but also how you live the rest of your life. And so when I started looking at Acts 22, I'm like, this is so rich.

And Trey started pointing out other things like, well, we see that Paul was already praying as solitars. Last I checked, God only hears the prayers of those who are regenerated and are his, the righteous, his children.

And so we see, and you talked about this with Aaron Gallagher, Trey, Ananias called him brother. And this is in a Christian context, right? Not just they looked alike because they probably didn't, but there's a spiritual connection between Ananias and Saul of Tarsus at the time.

But yeah, Everett, I just wanted to mention that that's one of the verses that challenged me many years ago.

Now, and yeah, this is the one that Aaron told me first and still today that that's the verse he can't get around. If he could get around that one, he wouldn't be in the church of Christ, which I painted out.

I showed him all the verses in the New Testament and the Old Testament that God does not listen to the prayers of the wicked, but only to the righteous, you know? And you have to jump through a lot of verses and say the Bible contradicts.

And that's the problem with it because they love baptism. It's their idol, you know? And, but from that conversation I had with Aaron on this chapter right here, I cannot tell you how many people called me from the church of Christ who said, I'm getting out, you know, just from seeing the breakdown of that right there, of all the verses that you have to jump through and convince yourself that the Bible actually does contradict and you have to sleep well at night, but good luck if you're trying to say that it doesn't, right?

So, yeah.

What do you think, Everett?

It's a good exegesis right there.

Yeah, and you know, we keep going because you can't hold the book of Acts kind of as the number one book above everything else. No, scripture is a unfolding revelation. I mean, it's a closed canon now, but the book of Acts is a narrative book that flows out of the harmony of the gospels.

This is a book of what we would say, descriptions, describing the birth of the early church. And it's the church of Christ that more often than not deny the indwelling, ontological indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And so it's interesting because they're going to look at the book of Acts and pretty much say, well, that don't apply to me. That don't apply to me. And it's funny because some of these things, I would say, yeah, it's a narrative.