Movie Review: Saved! (2004) A Parody of Youth Group Culture

In 2004, I was a youth pastor, and in that same year, a movie came out which was quite controversial among many evangelicals.

That movie was called Saved, and it starred Mandy Moore and Macaulay Culkin. Today I've got

Nick and Parker from the Watch Well podcast, and we're going to be talking about this movie that came out 20 years ago.

So stay tuned. Your Calvinist podcast begins right now. It's your

Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey Beers and boat rides, laughs till sunrise

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey He's not like most

Calvinists, he's nice Your Calvinist podcast is filmed before a live studio audience.

Let's get our Christ on, let's kick it Jesus style. Who's down with G -O -D? Ladies and gentlemen, that was

Pastor Skip from the movie Saved, and I'm going to bring in my friends now. This is

Nick and Parker. They are with Watch Well podcast, and we're going to be talking about that film that we just watched the clip of.

Nick and Parker, thank you guys for being a part of the show today. Oh, I have you muted, sorry.

I will unmute you now. Hey guys. Hey, thanks for having us, Keith. Yeah, thanks.

Absolutely. And I want to say thank you both. Recently you had me on your show to talk about one of my favorite movies of all time, and that was the movie

Superman, 1978 Superman. It was a wonderful opportunity to talk to you guys about some of the theology that we see in that movie.

And so I thought it would be great to have you guys on to talk about a movie that I have addressed many times on my show.

And I address it from the perspective, not that it was a great movie. In fact, we're going to talk about some of the problems with the movie later, but the fact that it does sort of operate as kind of a time capsule regarding youth culture and the youth culture that I grew up in.

I was a youth of the nineties and I was a youth pastor in the early 2000s.

And this movie, which again is called Saved, that was the title of the movie, it represents a time in history and specifically a time in church history where this youth group model had exploded and had really created its own culture in churches.

And that's kind of what we're going to address today. But before we go further, I do want to ask you guys to tell everyone a little bit about yourselves.

Each of you just, how about this? Tell us how long you've been in the Lord, how long you've been doing this podcast and what got you interested in doing this with movies.

So I'll let whoever you guys consider the leader to go first. Go ahead,

Nick. That wasn't the right answer to that question, but okay. So, yeah,

I've already forgotten the questions that you asked us to do. So how long we've been in the Lord? I can say, you know,

I usually say 13 because when I was involved in youth group, so, you know, I was a youth group kid as well.

That's when I accepted the Lord. But even as I think back on my life and things like that,

I can't remember a time in my life where I would have said, I don't believe in Jesus or anything like that.

But I usually point to when I was 13 at a youth group camping retreat, when I came, when

I actually committed my life to Jesus and he became the center of everything.

But so, yeah. And what was the other question that you wanted us to answer?

About the podcast, about how you got started, what made you want to do this particular podcast, which is

Watch Well. Tell us about the show and why you do it. Okay, yeah. So Watch Well, the idea for Watch Well talking about movies was kind of born out of conversations that I had with my college friends.

We would, you know, go to a ton of movies together and we'd have conversations and we were all Christian guys, or the majority of us.

And inevitably our conversations, they sounded different than the conversations, you know, we were having with non -believers, even just about something like movies.

So that just kind of started the idea, why is that? Why do we talk differently about these themes and things like that that are in certain films than somebody who doesn't believe in Christ?

Why are our conversations different? And eventually I became a youth pastor and we took that and had movie nights with our with teens.

And then Parker, a few years ago, was just talking about podcasting and content creation.

And he's like, we should do something together. And we're like, well, what do we do? We have no idea. And I actually was planning at one point to start a

Watch Well blog and do like, you know, movie reviews like that. So I sent him a write -up that I did of the movie

Fences, which is Denzel Washington. That was actually our first episode as the podcast.

And his response to that was, that's our podcast right there. So then from there, we just started to figure out the logistics and how we could make it happen.

But yeah, so that's, that was what, about two years ago now. Nice, nice.

All right, Parker, tell me about your, when did you come to the Lord and also, you know, kind of how you got into loving movies and wanting to do this podcast?

Yeah, sure thing. So I would kind of parallel Nick, Nick's response a little bit.

I don't know if there's a time where I would say that I wouldn't have called myself a

Christian. I grew up in church and yeah,

I went to Christian high school and, you know, all of those things. So I approached my parents,

I think when I was six or seven to get baptized. So I've just kind of grown up in the church and have always considered myself a

Christian and have always kind of, you know, put Christ at the center of everything.

You know, obviously we ebb and flow and learn and, you know, theology kind of changes and we grow.

There's that, but I can't remember a time where I wouldn't have called myself a Christian. As far as the podcast, when

Nick sent me, well, I guess before that, you know, growing up in junior high and high school, my dad and my brother are also big movie buffs.

So as a family, we would always go to the movie theaters on the weekends when we weren't playing baseball.

So we were, I mean, sometimes we were at the movie theater two and three times in one weekend.

We were just, you know, always watching movies and always talking about movies and relating actors.

And, you know, we kind of play different games on who can remember who from what movie and all those things.

So we've always been movie buffs and we've always talked about movies in the way Nick mentioned as well.

So, yeah, growing up, just always in the movie theater. And then when Nick sent me that episode, everything just seemed to kind of fit.

So I definitely was like, yeah, this is it. This just makes sense. Awesome.

Well, I have to do something here, Parker. I got to pull your picture up big. Is that an AR -15 in the background?

It sure is. It sure is. I just,

I thought, I was like, well, I want to see this bigger. My audience will certainly appreciate that. Are you a reformed

Baptist? Because that's the guy in my videos who's always strapped. That's hilarious. No, I don't know.

I don't know really what I am yet in terms of, you know, denomination, but I would say reformed.

Okay. You're moving in that direction. Yeah, definitely moving in that direction.

Well, good deal. Well, before, I'm going to cut to a quick commercial here in a second. But before I do that,

I just want to mention two things. One, I want to ask you to both think about this question because when we come back from the commercial,

I want you to answer it. Before we get into the review of Saved, I want you to answer this question. If you could make any

Bible story into a movie, something that hasn't been done, something that hasn't been done, if you can make any

Bible story into a movie, I want you to tell me what that would be.

And for the audience, right before we cut to this quick break, I do want to mention also that we are, we now have a new sponsor,

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The word gospel means good news. And that good news has to be preceded by some bad news.

And the bad news is this, that we are all sinners. Sin is breaking God's law. So we stand guilty before the

Lord of the universe. But the good news is God sent his son into the world to pay the penalty for everyone who would believe in him.

Jesus came into the world, lived a perfect life, and he died a substitutionary death for everyone who will believe.

And he calls us all to repent of our sin, to turn from our unbelief, and trust in him as Lord and Savior.

And if you've never done that, I encourage you to do so today. Now back to the show. All right, guys, you have your answers.

We'll let Parker go first this time. If you wanted to make any Bible story into a movie, what do you got?

So I don't know if I've seen every movie or every depiction of a

Bible story, so I'm not sure if anything has been created around this. But I think as soon as you said that, my mind went to something to do with Paul and his journey and his mission work.

Maybe something to do with the road to Damascus or writing the letters and seeing the culture or the different issues facing the

Christian church as he was writing those individual letters or something like that. I think that would be kind of fun to watch.

I'd love to see him flip out on the Galatians or really giving it to the Corinthians.

All right, Nick, what about you, buddy? So that's actually funny because we obviously didn't have this question beforehand.

And what I wrote down was adapting any of the epistles. I think adapting what was going on in the

Corinthian church and then them receiving Paul's letters and what was their response to it and how they implemented or didn't implement.

And all the things that were going on in the culture at the time when they received those letters.

So, yeah, that's my answer. That's funny. You guys must be close.

Y 'all are sharing the same ideas without even talking. Well, I want to move now to talking about the reason people clicked, and that was to hear us talk about this movie,

Saved. And if you've never heard of this, I'm going to pull up.

This is a picture of the actual movie poster, DVD cover, whatever. This is the movie

Saved. It was really popular in one sense because it was

Macaulay Culkin's, one of Macaulay Culkin's movies after he became an adult. He was very famous for doing

Home Alone. Everybody knows him. Even my kids know him now, but he's perpetually eight years old for everybody who watches

Home Alone. But he did grow up, and he did go through a time of difficulty and now is doing better, seems to be doing better, at least as far as physically.

I've seen him on some shows and some things more recently, and he seems to be at least have gotten some of the issues in his life worked out.

But I remember this movie coming out, and it was, again, it was 2004. And I was a youth pastor at the time.

And everybody that was in youth culture at that time, youth group culture, was saying this movie needs to be picketed.

It needs to be, you need to warn all your youth not to go see it. You need to tell them that this is a dangerous movie.

And I do want to give a quick, if you will, a quick disclaimer.

I am not endorsing people to watch this movie today. There are a few scenes that are a little rough.

It's PG -13, so that's a real weird line. You guys probably, y 'all are movie guys, you know how

PG -13 even came into existence, right? And, you know, there was a time when PG movies were really crazy because there was no, there was nothing between PG and R.

And so they would skate by. And then PG -13 was introduced.

Was it, what was it, Gremlins that caused it to be introduced? Do you guys know that? I'm not sure exactly what movie caused it to be introduced, but I know it was in the later half of the 80s.

Yeah. And so this movie certainly rides that 13 line, the

PG -13 line. There's no nudity. There's very little bad language. There is some bad language.

But there's a lot of suggestions in the film. And so it's certainly one that I'm not endorsing people go out and watch, especially not to watch with their kids or anything like that.

But my reason, I've brought this movie up a ton of times on my show, and I've asked guests.

I've said, do you remember the movie Saved? And people say no. I say that movie captured the culture that I grew up in.

And it captured the culture of the youth group. I'm from Jacksonville, Florida, but I'm actually from Callahan, Florida.

When I say Jacksonville, everybody knows Jacksonville, Florida. Callahan is a suburb of Jacksonville.

It used to be a one red light town. Now it's a two red light town. It's a very small town.

And I mean, I still live here. I love Callahan. But in Callahan, there was like one church that was like the big mega church.

It was the big First Baptist Church of Callahan. Now there were some other churches around, but that church had the youth group.

And anytime there were events, we'd go to First Baptist Church and do their youth events. And I remember sort of the culture, the youth culture of the time.

And then moving into my adulthood, I became a youth pastor. And I was a youth pastor up until the time that I became the senior pastor of our church in 2006.

And I remember going through a lot of those same activities of youth culture and youth group culture.

And I remember seeing this movie and thinking, again, when I first saw it, I thought, this movie is just attacking the church.

It's just a terrible movie, and it's just telling us, it's saying all these bad things, and it's making fun of the church, and it's making fun of God's people.

And in a way, it is. But as I look back at it now, I say this actually pointed to a problem that I don't think many people recognized, and that is the problem of hypocrisy that was rampant in the church then and continues to be rampant in the church now.

So I want to ask you guys just right off the rip what your initial thoughts were, because you both had never seen this, right?

Like I asked you, check this movie out so you can watch this. And you were probably watching it going, what did this pastor just ask me to watch?

And again, I hope that nobody's offended. I'm not trying to offend anybody.

I'm trying to point out a reality here. But what were your initial thoughts, Nick, when you watched the movie?

So I think I text Parker within the first five minutes of the movie and said, this might be the craziest or most ridiculous movie

I've ever seen in my life, just like the opening however many minutes of the film.

So I had never seen it. But I showed my wife the messages that Parker was forwarding me from you, saying, hey, we want to do the movie saved, you want to talk about it, do like a retrospective on culture.

And she just started laughing because she was familiar with this movie. And in fact,

I found out after the fact that we own it. We own this movie. And I had no idea.

I had no idea that this was in our shelf. So, yeah, it was the first time that I had ever seen it.

So my first reaction, you know, thinking about the film as a whole,

I agree with you. And I don't know, I think I might say it differently than saying it just perfectly captured that culture.

I think it perfectly captured all of the negative aspects of that culture.

So it didn't, I don't, because there's, you know, it was obviously done with some intent behind it.

And I'm sure, I don't know, have you ever looked up the, the director's backstory? No. So, so I did just because I was interested because like the undertone, even though there's a lot, there's actually a lot of things that I laughed at that I thought were pretty funny.

Some things that I thought were kind of not because they went a little too far, but so the director, his last name is

Danily. I think it's Brandon Danily, but Brian, I've got the,

I pulled up right here. Okay. So it's Brian Danily. So this is from Wikipedia that I don't know how, how reliable you want to, you want to make this out to be, but it says he was raised

Catholic. He attended a Catholic elementary school and then went to Arlington Baptist high school in Baltimore and a

Jewish summer camp. He was expelled from first grade for hitting a nun and later expelled from high school, which he described as one of the strictest schools in the nation for excessive demerits.

So he was expelled for excessive demerits. He started questioning his sexuality in high school saying, I remember

I'd pray every night that I wasn't gay and please God, please God, anything I could do. Just don't make this happen.

And he came out at the age of 17 and was thrown out of his house by his parents. And then this says who eventually came to accept his sexuality.

So the undertones of the film that I kind of picked up on, it was like either the writer or director, somebody involved in making this had to have a backstory of being hurt and having some trauma in, in relation to the church.

And so that was, I think the biggest thing that I picked up on and then went and kind of did some research and found that little bio for the director.

Yeah, no. And I appreciate you looking into that. I had no idea about that, but you're, that's very insightful.

The fact that you recognize somebody, this, this is a product of hurt. And yeah, yeah, exactly.

And you can walk through the movie in your mind and think how many, how many of those references are, are, are there.

I mean, and again, this movie is 20 years old. I'm going to say from now on spoiler alert is up and we can talk about whatever we want.

Nobody, if you get mad at us, spoiling a 20 year old movie, just make sure to go buy blockbuster on your way home and pick it up because apparently you're still in 19 or it's still in 2004 and you can go buy blockbuster.

But, but in this movie, there is a lot of overt pointing to homosexuality as, as something that is is, is hated by the church, but should be accepted.

It seems like that. That's, that's, so it's, it's not surprising that you would say the director himself was, was somebody who identifies as a homosexual.

So that's, that's interesting. Parker, what were your thoughts? I guess you were maybe surprised as well.

Yeah. So I, I have never even heard of this movie before you brought it up for us to do like a review and come on.

So I, I had no idea that this movie was a thing. And when I started watching it, uh,

I, uh, was actually watching it with my wife and she turned to me and she goes, it's crazy how accurate this is as like a depiction of what even us in the two thousands, uh, saw early two thousands saw.

So, you know, if I'm, if I'm not mistaken, I, I took it as a, uh, uh, how youth group was in the nineties, you know, and then obviously, uh, obviously it was exaggerated, right.

Uh, a little bit, but, uh, but even so the spillage of that into the early two thousands, uh,

I thought was pretty, it was pretty accurate as well from what I remember. Now, what, what year,

I'm not going to ask your age on camera, but what years were you in youth group? Uh, I mean, you can ask me,

I don't care. I was, I was young enough. He doesn't care. Yeah. I was born in 92.

So, uh, this movie came out and I think I was, uh, I think I was 12, 12. Is that right?

Did I do the math? I don't know. You weren't, you may not have even been a teen like, so youth group age yet.

Right. Right. Maybe not. Yeah. Would you have even, so would you have even been in Christian school yet?

Uh, I started my freshman year, I think was 2008, 2008, 2008 so that was nine.

Okay. So rel relatively early two thousands. Um, so, so yeah,

I just, just from some of the things that I remember in, in different youth groups that I've, I attended and, and was a part of, um, there was definitely still, you know, a lot of accuracies.

Yeah. The, one of the things that I, I, I think the movie, you know, and again,

I, I, I, I hope that when people hear this, they don't think that I'm endorsing the movie.

I'm not, I'm, I'm looking at the movie as a time capsule, but I do think there are certain aspects of the movie that were like you said,

Nick, that were funny. There were things like when they went to the gun range, I don't know if you remember it was Emmanuel gun range,

I for an eye that was on the Emmanuel and she's, you know, um, and, and so there were these, uh, these, you know, just sort of funny, uh, jabs at, you know, the, the, the

Christian right and right -wing culture, but also there were the, the like pastor skip, for instance, if we, if we want to talk about breaking down characters for a moment,

I've met pastor skip, not, not the, not the character, but I've met guys who are pastor skip who, who, who, who they're, they're, they're, their entire persona is, is, is, is being, uh, uh, being, uh, putting on a show.

And I, I didn't have, I, I didn't throw, I didn't put this in the clip in the initial thing, but the first thing he does when he walks out on, on to the stage is does a flip.

Uh, if you remember that party, he did like a front flip landed and then did the whole who's down with God.

I have said, who's down with God for years, referencing big Eva, referencing that.

And if you don't know what big Eva is, that's my, when I do my videos, I talk about the different characters and the denominations pastor skip is big

Eva. Pastor skip is that guy for sure. And, um, he's representing a certain type of Christian leader that so much of the world thought was what was really there.

And I appreciate what you said, Nick earlier. It's, it's, it's not true of everything. It's, it's not, this movie is, is really a parody of what was bad.

Um, but as, as we look back at in a new time period and we, we see a change in culture, can we not see where there were in the culture of that, that, that, that youth group model, the production of some of these bad things.

And, and let me give you an example, I guess, uh, cause it seemed like maybe I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm being a little odd with my questions.

Let me, let me be more specific when you guys were younger, when you were in youth group, what were some of the things that this movie brought out that reminded you of some of the things that were true that were not good?

Um, maybe I'll start with you, Parker. What were, was, was there anything in this movie you said, yeah, I remember how that worked and it wasn't good.

Um, I guess the thing that jumps out for me was how, how, uh, the tendency to believe that the more emotional you were about your faith, the closer to Jesus you were.

I think that that would be kind of the, the main thing that I pulled out. And it seems to, uh, take away from biblical knowledge.

And I also know that there's, there's ditches on both sides, right? So like you can be overly emotional about your faith and have no knowledge of scripture, but then you can be overly knowledgeable and not actually have a relationship with Christ either.

So there's, I mean, I, I, you know, totally upfront with the ditches on both sides, but there's gotta be, you know, a little bit of knowledge of God and, and, and, and walking in scripture, uh, for that relationship to know.

Right. I would think. Yeah, no, I think that's great.

Nick, your thoughts. Um, so one of the things that really sticks out, um, as one of those negatives is, so I can't remember

Mandy Moore's character's middle name, um, Hillary, Hillary Faye, right.

Which is probably, is that a, uh, wasn't there an eighties televangelist wife who had the middle name

Faye or something like that? I think Tammy Faye. That's Tammy. Yep. So I'm sure that's a play on that.

So, um, but so the, I do think youth groups had a tendency, and this is,

I think something I experienced to, to place kids on a pedestal as if they're leaders and, um, they're, they're spiritually mature and they're still just teenager.

And it create, it created this kind of environment where people had to pretend to, to feel like they're as accepted as somebody else.

So you have to, you have to pretend to, um, want to go on missions trips.

Because if you, if you go on the missions trip, then you have a status that people who don't go have, or they, that they don't have.

Um, so you, you have more access to the leader and you have like this, um, this image, this image of, of holiness that is purely based on your own works.

Like this is purely based on you doing something to appear right and good in front of people.

And it's ultimately not a fear of God, but rather the fear of your peers and fear of man that ultimately, um, is driving that.

And so just that aspect of thing, how things, how she's put up on a pedestal as, as this image of, of, of righteousness.

This is what, this is what other students should be attaining to, right?

She's the one who's holy. She's evangelizing and she's doing all of that, but her heart is not right.

Right. She's, it's an, it's just a facade. It's artificial. It's surface level. Um, and it's not really genuine.

Yeah. The, one of the funny parts, um, when the pastor wants the

Mary character and she's the one who has, um, and by the way, I guess we didn't do a plot synopsis, but the plot synopsis is there's a young girl who goes to a

Christian school who gets pregnant and she does so because she thinks she's trying to win her boyfriend back from being gay by allowing him and her to have, have, uh, uh, have sex together.

And, um, that's sort of the plot that gets the movie going. And, um, when the pastor sees this girl straying, he goes to the

Mandy Moore character. He goes to Hillary Faye and you need to win her back. You need to be a warrior for Jesus.

I had that. I think I had that written down here. Uh, yeah. As a, you know, be a warrior for Jesus. And so they decide they're going to perform an exorcism and go and her and two other girls are going to kidnap her, pull her into the van.

Yeah. And again, this seems, this is like parody, but I remember and this is to your point,

Nick, I remember a very specific moment in my life. Um, because I wasn't a believer until I was 19.

I, but, but I would have fit in with the kid with the Christian kids. Okay. Because I wasn't, you know,

I wasn't carousing and doing foolish, a lot of foolish stuff, but I did have one thing that didn't fit in well.

And that was, I, I had a very bad mouth. I would, I would say a lot of ugly words.

And that was, that was something that just was, it was just, it never bothered me until I got saved.

And, um, so I remember going to a youth event and, um, it was being put on by another church.

I was invited and I remember going to the event and I just start talking like I normally talked.

I talked like a sailor. I mean, I just, it just didn't bother me again. I was 17.

I, I, I was standing next to my friend. I remember his name is, his name was Jimmy Smith and he wasn't, he was a

Roman Catholic. So he wasn't part of the group either. And he was my best friend. And, but, but he looked at me and he goes, don't talk like that.

You can't talk like that here. I'm like, Jimmy, I talk like this everywhere. This is just like, this is the way

I talk. And I remember him just like, but you can't do it here. This, there's rules here.

This place is, this is, this is the Christians. And I'm like, yeah, but these are the same kids I go to school with. And when

I'm at school, they don't ever say anything, but I can't do it here. It was just, to me, it didn't register.

And again, I'm not promoting, you know, my, I was, I was in the wrong, but at the same time, they wanted me to behave in a certain way because of where I was.

They wanted me to behave in a certain way because of the atmosphere that I was in. And when I didn't, I, I was like, it was like, nobody wanted to talk to me.

They just want to walk away. And I was like, looking back, I was in the wrong. I shouldn't have been using my mouth to, to, to say shameful things.

But at the same time, no one came to me and shared the gospel. No one came to me and said, Hey, you know, this, the, here's the issue.

It was just, you know what, you say those bad words. I don't want to hang around you rather than trying to talk to me about it.

And looking back again, I'm not, I'm not shaming those kids. I mean, those, those kids are, you know, they are who they are. And many of them are good, faithful believers now.

And I know them now. And, and, but, but looking back then it could have been different. It could have been different.

There's a certain piety. I think this movie pulls out the idea of false piety that, that, that, that, this, that, that, that we're, we're, we're, we're going to, rather than be genuine, we're going to have this fake behavior that is that that's everybody knows is fake, but we're going to promote it like it's, like it's genuine.

And then the ones who are the, the characters who are kind of cast out.

So Mary and the Macaulay Culkin's character, and then the other,

I can't remember her name, but they call her Sandra. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So they're kind of the ones who decide to stop being fake and they're cast out because they don't fit anymore.

They have to be cast out. Like they can't, they can't be a part of the in crowd anymore because they decided to stop faking it.

It's, it's interesting to me, the, all of the different viewpoints of this movie. So Nick, Nick just talked about the people who decided to live genuinely were casted out.

And then the, the, the, the phoniness or the, the facade of the faith of Christians, and then the confrontation with reality and and Mary, sorry,

I'm looking at my notes to get the names right as well. It's interesting to me because in scripture and stop me,

Keith, if I'm going way off here, but it's interesting. The, the,

I think this movie does a good job at coming square toe to toe with scripture when it says, you know, we are to cast certain people out so that, you know, the, the, the whole

Levin in the loaf and keeping the church safe and guarding against wolves and sheep's clothing.

And then also, you know, being a light to the world and being hope, you know, preaching the gospel and doing the thing.

So I think that the movie really touches on, on those issues really, really well.

And I was actually interested to see what you guys thought of that because I think it, it's important to know the difference between when like you really have to sort of judge someone's heart on if they're truly seeking the

Lord. And that's a different person because you know, the process of sanctification and, and continually growing in Christ as opposed to someone who is just completely closed off and corrupted.

And then I also, you know, just, these are just kind of where my thoughts were when I was watching the movie.

And and you know, I understand it's a school and not necessarily a church and that there may be a different protocol there.

But I was, I wanted to open that up to you guys and kind of get your thoughts on that because I think the movie touched on that like really, really precisely.

Yeah. And I, I think that's, that's very insightful and it's a very good question because that's the, that that's the hard part when

I, when I think about what the movie is representing because the movie is representing just like what you said,

Nick, it's representing these people who've been outcasted and they, they're the genuine ones and they're the heroes.

I mean, at the end of the movie, they're the ones getting the photograph and they're the ones that, that, you know, and when we look at that group,

I mean, there's obviously some very moral issues going on. There are some moral compromises and some major problems.

And so when we look at it, there's, that's why I said, I'm not promoting that aspect of it.

I think that the, the hardest part as believers and particularly in the modern church is how we apply first Corinthians five, which says that if a person has the name of brother and they are continuing in these sins, that they are to be put aside or removed.

But if a person is in the world and they are doing these things, then they're not. And that's,

I can pull out the passage. You guys know what I'm talking about, right? We're talking about the man who is with his mother's wife, right?

This, this, this, or his father's wife, this, this very odd sin that's described. And Paul says, you should have done something about this guy.

You should turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. So that his soul can be saved in the day of the Lord. We know that he's talking there about church discipline and we know that church discipline matters and church discipline is important.

But then later he says, I didn't tell you to come out of the world, because if I told you to come out of the world, you never have a relationship with anybody, right?

Like you gotta, you gotta engage with the world. He says, but if anyone bears the name of brother, and that's where Paul's line seems to be.

And that's why I will say this, the Macaulay Culkin character is probably the most honest of all the characters in the movie.

Cause the very first thing he says to the, the girl, the Jewish girl is

I'm not a Christian. He just said, I'm not, I'm not that. And that's, that's, you know,

I'm not even sure. And again, I'm not making this about me, but when I was, when I was 17, 16, I don't know,

I wouldn't have said I wasn't a Christian. I probably would have said I was cause I grew up in a church. I grew up going to church.

So I probably would have said I was a Christian, but at least he recognized I'm not,

I'm not that. I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not trying to fake it. And so I think that it does, it addresses the issue of fake versus real.

I mean, the one, the one, the one who's put on the pedestal, the one who's the most popular, the one who's the most attractive of, you know, among the, you know, the makes herself the most out there is, is the

Mandy Moore character and she's the most fake because at the end she's shown to be a hypocrite and a liar.

And it's almost a, it's almost like a idolization and like self -worship,

Trojan horse through faith in Christ is what it seems like.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. And then what you're talking about with, so with that there is definitely a tension between, okay, here's real sin happening and people, people have, are, you know, living in very real sin versus, okay, the, the, how do

I actually engage? So it's like, yes, I want to evangelize non -believers, right?

I want to share the gospel with them. Or if, or if one of my friends or somebody that I know well is stuck in some type of sin, whatever, whatever it is, like I want to try to bring them back if they're a

Christian, I want to try to bring them back. I want to, you know, confront them in a, in a, in a love, hopefully in a loving way that will bring them back into the faith and bring them back into, you know, walking with the

Lord. But then for non -believers, I want them to turn away from their sin. Right? And I want to be honest with them about what is sin and what is, what's the answer like repentance and turning in faith to Christ because he paid your penalty, he paid the penalty for sin.

So like there, there is a tension there and there is a very real threat.

And I don't know if threat is the right word of being, even if I communicate it well, even if I approach in love, the person on the other end still might respond in a way that they feel attacked or hurt.

Right? So I can, so there were times in the movie where I'm like the motivation to go like bring back.

So like in this, in the example, bring back your sister in Christ, right? It is a good motivation, but to go throw them in a van and try to exercise the demon from them is probably not the way to do that.

I think we need to define those terms. Yeah. But even, even if they would have done it right, she might have still felt attacked.

Right? So she still might feel like the church and Christians are attacking her and against her and all of those things, even if they're not because there can be those misinterpretations and there is tension there like, and there is a level of confrontation that that is present when you're addressing sin.

So yeah, I think that tension is definitely in the film and they do display it well.

But then that also comes back to the importance of having qualified shepherds.

Right. Right. The people who are shepherding, like, so, you know, Pastor Skip is not qualified.

Like he is, he does not meet the biblical qualifications of an elder or pastor.

He's not, he's not living his life in accordance with the scriptures. He is, he's as, or at least more hypocritical than anyone else in the story.

Right? Because he's the one presented as an authority, as a leader, somebody who is teaching them about Christ, teaching them how what

Christ expects of them and what a Christian life looks like. And yet he's the one having an affair. His marriage is falling apart.

He's not engaging with his son like, and his son sees through it all. Right. Yeah. His son calls him on it for sure.

Yeah. So what, so that, then that's kind of one of the other questions that came to mind is what would have been different if the

Mary character had an actual loving person, pastor, or shepherd that was willing to actually guide her through the situation she was in rather than just view it as you have sinned, you're an outcast until we, until you, until you come back.

Like this is not right. And you can't be a part of this group. Like if she would have had an actual pastor, qualified person who's lovingly addressing the issues that are present in her life, but while still showing her that biblical love and shepherding her to the truth.

And that's really important. And, and honestly, this is why as Christians we see this movie differently because the,

I think this, this movie has three audiences in that you know, going back to 2004 when it was made, the first audience is obviously the audience that is just, you know, popcorn and sodas and wanting to watch a movie, right?

They don't, they're not cared. They don't care about the moral aspects of the film. They just think it's sort of like for them, it's just any nineties teen, you know, romp.

Right. But then there were those who had been hurt by church and there were those who have been.

And, and I, and, and honestly, the even the term church hurt bothers me because I think a lot of times when people talk about church hurt, it's, it's, it's a difficult subject.

I know a lot of people, you know, I've been in ministry now almost 20 years in the same church.

And, and there's a lot of people who, who, who might say that there have been at times where they've, you know, experienced difficult things in our own church.

And, and, and I know that that's real and I, and I would never discount that. But at the same time, it's a difficult subject all the way around.

But some people would look at this movie and say, okay, I've been hurt by church. All Christians are like Pastor Skip.

All Christians are, you know, all pastors are, you know, men who are cheating on their wives or they really don't care about the

Lord. They really don't care about these things. And I think that's, that's, that's the second audience. And then the third, third audience is the church, which again in 2004, remember when this movie came out is, you know, holding up signs, you know, and, and, and, and people talk about cancel culture.

Christians invented cancel, cancel culture, right? Like, like we, like we created, like we were the ones holding signs outside of Harry Potter and all that stuff, right?

Like, like we did that. And, and, and so we, we know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, and, and, and, and, and that's where I'm stepping back and I'm saying, okay, what is the, um, what's the reality here?

And what you just said, man, Nick, that was, that was really thoughtful because how the whole thing would have been changed if it was a biblical model, would this whole situation have been different?

Even the way that the young man was, was treated, who was the homosexual at the beginning, right?

Um, what does his parents do? We don't know how to handle this. So we're going to send him to, uh, uh, you know, uh, this place to be where they say, you know, pray the gay away,

I think is what the phrase that may get me, that may get this, uh, this whole video taken down. Just the fact that I just said those words,

YouTube note does not like that, but, but, um,

I'll make a mark at that note. There were 46 minutes now, but, um, but no, that's, uh, uh, that's one of those realities that, um,

I know there are cultures where that happens. I know there are places where, where those very therapies have been, um, you know, have been tried to be applied and, and, and, and various things.

So, um, a lot of this is, is, is parody of things that have occurred.

Um, but on that, sorry, please.

So I was just going to say on, on that, that kind of that, um, the pastor skip character kind of reveals another problem in the youth culture of that time.

It seemed like churches would just place anybody with the youth group.

It's like, here's a young guy who's entertaining and fun. We don't care about anything else.

He's entertaining and fun. Lead the youth group. And there are people that they would never, if they actually had to go through a process of being found qualified to be an elder and all of those things.

Um, they just, they would have never stood a chance, but because they're young and entertaining, they're like,

Oh, you could hang out with the kids. And yeah. And on that, it seems, uh, it seems as if they're trying to win the unbeliever with everything but the gospel.

It's flashing lights. It's fun. It's entertainment. And I wouldn't say all of those things are inherently bad.

I think we can, I mean, I don't, I mean, God gives us modes of entertainment. God gives us different techniques and strategies that we can use and we have our brains and we can tap into that.

But how, I guess, I guess what I'm kind of thinking about is how, how of the world is our strategy to reach the world instead of relying on, uh, the gospel as it is and teaching it true and then letting that power go forth and, and, and cause change.

Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting. Just, just thinking of the idea of, of again, that culture, unqualified leadership, as Nick just said, and then an unbiblical method for, for, for bringing people in.

I mean, just think, think, you know, going back to that one scene, that one scene encapsulates everything for me when he does the flip and he comes in, who's down with God.

Somebody in here has backslidden over the summer. Somebody needs to come forward. And of course one kid hang dog, you know, hangs his head and gets up and walks down for it.

Oh, now we're going to pray over this guy. I've, I've seen that this year. I had to go to an event and I saw everything in that step part of the movie

I saw at an event. It was a youth event. I had to attend and I was there as just as a spectator that the guy went up on stage.

He's, he acted the same way, behaved the same way. So this culture hasn't gone away. It's just evolved.

Like all things change, right? It's not the same as it used to be, but it was the same tactics. It was the same methodology.

Just, you know, new, you know, new dress, uh, kind of thing. Where, where, where did it originate from?

Do you guys know? I have my thoughts, but I don't, I don't, I can't give you a, a, a, a distinct, um, answer, but, but I'll, I'll tell you what

I think, Nick, do you have a, uh, an absolute answer to that? Cause I can go for it.

All right. So, um, 20th century, 20th century church culture was, it was a major shift.

Um, and this is just from teaching church history, where we see, um, things like the rise in the crusade movement with Billy Graham, which of course he was influenced by people who came before him,

Billy Sunday and others who had created this, this new atmosphere of what it means to be a Christian and what it meant to be a

Christian was to respond to a, to an overt gospel message and come forward. And, and even, even the idea of coming forward that was introduced, um, in the, in the time of the second great awakening with what was called the mourners bench.

It was a, it was a bench that was up in front. And that's where people who came who wanted to mourn over their sins, they would come forward, they would mourn over their sin and they would be prayed for.

And that was, that was sort of like a, uh, it was an, it was an introduction that wasn't there before. The whole idea of coming forward, the whole idea of walking the aisle didn't exist for 1800 years of church history, but it, but it became a thing.

It became a product of this new way to witness how witness conversion and action.

How do you see conversion in action? You see people move, you see people get up. Right. And I remember Billy Graham popularized this so much that it was, you know, come.

And, and I remember this phrase, Billy Graham would say it, I can almost do his voice. He goes, others are coming. Right.

Like, like, like that was the phrase like others are coming, you know, cause, and, and, and what they wouldn't tell you is that the

Billy Graham crusades. And I know this because they had one in Jacksonville and some friends of mine worked at it is they actually had the, the, the people in the, in the stadium that worked for the, they were, they were volunteers who were counselors.

They would get up and go first. So to prime the pump so that other people would come forward, it was, it was a method to get people to come forward.

And so that model of church changed the face of the church forever because now it became about what

I would say is, is how do we get people to make decisions and you get people to make decisions through large emotional appeal and something that they need to do today.

You can't wait for tomorrow. You cannot wait. Today is the day of salvation. They're going to take second Corinthians six and they're going to ram it down your throat because it's got to be today.

And we're going to make this happen and we're going to do this thing. And the youth group model that grew up out of that is the model of when is the best time to get people to make decisions when they're young.

I've been told this I've actually, because as a youth group, as a youth pastor, I would go to youth training things.

And one of the things I would say is if you don't get a person to commit to Christ before they're 20, you, you, like I said 90 % chance that they'll never commit to Christ.

Right? So like you, you've only got this short window to get people to come to Christ and it's in their teenage years.

And if you wait until after their teenage years, the window is so much lower. And so therefore we've got to do all that we can to get them at this age.

And so this, this youth group mentality, and again, I'm not anti -youth. I'm not anti -youth group necessarily, even though our church is family integrated.

I'm not here to promote that. I'm just saying that we don't have a quote unquote youth group at our church, but we used to back when

I was the youth pastor. And one of the things that happens is we were told as youth pastors, you got to get them while they're teenagers, that you've got to get them to come to Christ.

And so it becomes this huge manipulation factor. And how do you manipulate? You manipulate through parties, you manipulate through entertainment, you manipulate through music and you manipulate through all of these things that we see in that culture.

And again, I kind of went on a rant there and I apologize. I didn't mean to. No, I love learning all that stuff.

Yeah. So as I knew of Billy Graham, I just, I didn't know like prior to that.

So go ahead. Sure. Yeah. And that's kind of, it's probably gotten to the point and by 2004, even by that point.

So by the time this movie came out, there are so many people who grew up in that style of doing ministry that it's no longer even like intentional manipulation.

Like it's people who have grown up in that style. They just think it's the right thing to do. And so they're genuinely trying to win people to, to the

Lord. And they just think this is the right way to do it because you've had, that's kind of just all they know.

And so there's a lot of people who have grown up in, and not all mega churches are bad, but you know, that typical, stereotypical mega church model who would feel the same way.

Like this is how you do church, right? This is the way to do it. This is all I know. And maybe they grow up and become a pastor and they don't, you know, they don't know any different way of doing it at that point because they're just not equipped.

So at some point it goes from that manipulation to now this is just the, what we do. Right. And I I've seen,

I can say I saw some of that in my youth group experience, you know, that emphasis on standing up now, making a decision.

And I think a lot of the decisions to follow the Lord were probably genuine ones.

Like people actually standing up because they, there was a real, real desire.

And a lot of those people are still walk with the Lord today and they're still you know, they're still Christians.

And but at the same time, so we had in my youth group and I don't want to go,

I'm rambling a little bit. We had no place. We had a wall. So we met our youth group met in the basement of our church of the, our church had two buildings and one building was called the fellowship hall.

And we had a basement in that building and that's where the youth group met. And on one of the walls, when somebody would make a decision to accept

Christ, you signed the wall, right? You signed the wall and put the date on there. And there's, there's a couple of different ways to take that.

You could say, wow, praise God that these students are making this decision, that they're committing their lives to the

Lord, that they're hearing the gospel and that they're making this decision. But then the other side of that is how many students did that because their name wasn't on the wall yet, right?

Like how many students did that just because they wanted their name on the wall and they didn't want to be left out from that.

So it's just like, right. Because it looks, it looks good. Right. And it looks bad if your name's not on the wall.

Right. Right. You know, so, yeah. And so when I, I, you know, I mentioned at the top of the episode that, you know,

I kind of, when I usually give my testimony, it is that youth group moment where the youth, the youth pastor asked people if they wanted to accept

Christ. And I stood up and we prayed together and you know, that was a genuine decision in my life.

But then now as an adult, as I look back, don't get me wrong, the youth group was still impactful, but I think more to how impactful my upbringing in a

Christian family was with parents who, who loved the Lord and parents who were following parents who were praying for me.

And I attribute more of that sustaining walk with the

Lord to that, to having my parents engage in that rather than to that youth group moment that was, that was that instantaneous decision, because it's a high emotional moment, even if it's genuine, right.

Even if it's a genuine decision, it was still made in that type of emotional environment.

So I attribute more of that kind of that perseverance in the faith to having a family who was also walking with the

Lord at the time. Yeah. And, and I read somewhere recently, and I think that it went out across Facebook and Twitter.

So you guys may have seen it too, that talked about the value of a father in the home being a believer and how much that affects the wife and the children.

So it's like, if the children become a believer, there's a very small percentage that the parents will. But if the mother becomes a believer, there's a better chance that the kids will.

But if the father becomes a believer, then the father is going to affect the mom and the children and we'll, we'll lead.

And I don't know, was your dad and mom a believer, Nick? Were they both believers?

Yep. Yeah. And, and I would say based on just first Corinthians seven, right?

It says that having believing parents put you in a position of sanctification that was different than children who don't have that blessing.

And so praise the Lord for your parents. And that's, that's a, that's a wonderful, wonderful thing. How about you, Parker? Are your parents believers?

Yeah. So both of my parents are believers. I remember being in is the summer and this is a little bit of a little bit into my testimony where I played a lot of baseball in my life and I we, my dad got a promotion.

So for those that don't know, Nick and I are actually cousins. So I'm from Indiana and then my dad got a promotion, which moved our family to Ohio where I live now with my wife and kids.

And that actually kind of started my kind of journey where through travel baseball,

I got on this travel baseball team through the move and switching States and teams and not knowing anybody.

Well, my parents came across this baseball team, this travel baseball team and every single one of those players for the most part went to the

Christian school. And that led me into Christian high school. And I went to my parents and said, you know,

I want to do that. My parents actually picked the town that they they bought a house in for the school system.

And then I went to the public school system or the public school for a year, my eighth grade year, and then switched to the the

Christian high school that was pretty depicted in the movie that we watched give or take.

And yeah. So having, having that foundation of Christian parents that are willing that were willing to sacrifice when it wasn't planned monetarily and you know, creating an environment where that foster that relationship and, and Christian education was invaluable.

That's great. That's great. I do want to just quickly circle back to something that Nick said a minute ago.

You were saying about how a lot of the youth leaders became pastors and the churches became like the youth groups.

That's actually something I have said many, many times in conversations with people. I've said a lot of modern church ministries are the youth groups of the nineties grown up because the people who enjoyed going to youth group in the nineties and the early two thousands, they didn't want to lose that atmosphere.

So they expected the church to just continue to be that. And so now we see that in a lot of, especially non -denominational sort of evangelical, you know, kind of, you know, light style churches.

It is very much like a grownup youth group. And so I just, I just wanted to circle back to that, that you had said that.

And it's interesting, Parker, that you went to a Christian school because Nick, did you go to a

Christian school? I did not. Yeah. So of the three of us, Parker, you have the most insight into this film is accuracy and you're saying it's fairly accurate.

It was, yeah, it was fairly accurate to a degree. I mean, obviously it's, it's every dramatic, comedic in some areas, but I mean,

I will say there are, I looked at my wife in a couple of scenes and was like, man, they got that right.

And your wife went to the same school. Yeah. I married, I married my high school sweetheart. So she, she enjoyed it.

Yeah. How old were you when you met? I think we were,

Oh, you put me on the spot. I'm gonna get in trouble now, Keith. I think, I think, so we met freshman year, but I don't think we really like met, met until junior year, but I'm probably wrong and I'll get in trouble.

And then I'll come after you, man. Well, does, does your wife actually listen to the podcast you're on?

For the, she's actually very supportive. So yeah, she'll probably listen to this. Okay. Well, hello to Parker's wife.

And I, he, he loves you in spite of forgetting. I remember I met my wife on, on October 26th, 1997.

So, that's awesome. I actually took her to homecoming.

I think I took her to homecoming sophomore, junior year. I forget. Nice. Nice.

Well, the only reason I have you that day is actually my wife's sister's birthday. So every year on her birthday, we celebrate the day we met.

So it's sort of a fun little memory. It is fun. I mean, when you look over at your wife and you have two screaming children and she's the only person that you've ever dated, that's awesome.

Like one and done, man. That's the way to go. That's right. That's right. Well, brothers,

I, I, I want to say thank you first of all, just for taking the time out to be on my show. I really appreciate what you guys do.

And I'm a lover of film, as you can tell by my wall behind me, I love movies. And so I'm sure that the three of us could, could just have a good time talking about a bunch of different movies.

And so maybe you guys could come back one day and we do this again, maybe with a film that's not so controversial.

I would love it, man. Yeah. But do you guys have any final thoughts? I have one final thing

I'm going to say about the movie, but if you guys have anything final you want to bring out before we, before we end out,

I'll give you that. I'll give you each a minute. And then we'll we'll draw it to a close. No, just how thankful and grateful we are for you having us on.

And you know, your hospitality. So thank you very much. We appreciate it. Yeah.

I'm not going to take a minute either. Just echoing what Parker said, very thankful to be on the, on the show and on the podcast.

It's I really enjoyed the conversation, enjoyed watching the movie as controversial and kind of shocked that I was to, to see it.

But I guess just the takeaway is the maybe just to faithfulness does not have to just be an appearance thing, right?

Like we just not just an image of holiness. There, there's a faithfulness and in learning, asking questions and for, as far as leaders go, being willing to engage those questions.

And when, especially if you're working with teenagers or kids, when they have doubts, engage those things, don't just say,

Oh, well, if you don't know that, you don't have enough faith. Like just engaging those things is very important and taking the risk and taking the responsibility to continually learn so that you can do that.

You put yourself in the best position to do those, to, to, to help at those moments. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Well, my, my final thought on this is just something my wife said while we were watching the movie together.

She looked at me and she said, I truly don't want to be that person.

And she was talking about the, the, the Hilary Faye character, the one who was the biggest hypocrite.

And she says, I don't want to be that. And if, if, if that's, if, if, if that is something a

Christian can take away from this movie is we don't want to be hypocrites. What was, what was the, the most, the most dangerous and the most sorrowful woe that Jesus proclaimed was a woe on the scribes and Pharisees.

And what did he call them? He called them hypocrites. And so is there things in this movie that aren't true?

Is this things that in this movie that are parody and that exaggerate? Absolutely. But if, if it causes us to say,

Hey, you know what? We don't want to be fake. We don't want to be hypocrites. We don't want to put on a show, but we want to be genuine in our love for Christ and our love for our neighbor.

Then then at least that's something positive that we can take away from it. So again, guys, thank you so much for being a part of the show.

And if people want to watch you guys, it's the watch well podcast. And you guys are on YouTube. All they got to look up is watch well.

Is that correct? Yup. YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcast. We're pretty much everywhere if you want to listen and then

YouTube, if you want to watch. Awesome. Well, thank you guys again. And thank you all for being a part of your

Calvinist podcast. Remember my name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist. May God bless you.

Gee. So I mix a manly drink.

Then I hit the YouTube link. And I feel my troubles all melt away.

Oh, it's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey.

Beards and bow ties. Laughs till sunrise.

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey. He's not like most

Calvinists. He's nice. Your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey.