Joseph Smith's Misconception of Grace and Dr. White's Strategy for Upcoming Debate

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This is the Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

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Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And good afternoon and welcome to the Dividing Line. My name is indeed

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James White and it is good to be with you today. We have a lot of things on the plate today and we're going to invite you to participate in the program by calling 866 -854 -6763.

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866 -854 -6763. And that is the number where you can participate.

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Perhaps you have some questions from the past few weeks.

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We can speak about Mormonism. Anything about Mormonism, but really fair game today as long as it's on the subjects that I can address in any meaningful fashion.

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I did the Janet Parshall program a few weeks ago and I heard her as I was waiting to come on say, any question that you have on the subject of Christianity.

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That sort of makes me Bible Answer Man light, I guess. But honestly, there are all sorts of things that I do not, in the least bit, claim to be an expert on and those really would not be issues that you should call in on.

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Please do not call in on eschatology. That would be mockery and it would not be considered kind or profitable either.

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But subjects on Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the

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King James Only, controversy, textual critical issues, textual variations, ancient church history up through the

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Reformation, please don't ask me anything after about 1680 something. Things around those areas.

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Anyways, give us a call. 866 -854 -6763 is the number for you to call today.

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I have a number of things I wanted to mention. About three weeks ago, I got an email right before the program and some of you will recall way back when that I tried to have on the program.

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This was back when we were doing the radio program before we did the webcast. I tried to have on our program, Dr. Joseph Chambers.

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Dr. Chambers appeared on the John Ankerberg shows that we did on King James Only -ism back in 1995 and he's the the

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Gail Ripplinger supporter and that's a terrible thing to call someone a

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Gail Ripplinger supporter. But anyways, he was the one defending Gail Ripplinger and we tried to have on the program and he decided not to be on the program and I called in and some of you heard the attempt at talking to him and reasoning with him when

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I called into his program. A couple weeks ago, I got an email from someone who listens to his satellite broadcast.

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I suppose we call this a worldwide internet broadcast, but it's a webcast and he has a satellite broadcast.

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On that program, which would be three weeks ago today, he identified me and those of you who listen who are

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Roman Catholic, Roman Catholic apologists, maybe people that I've debated before, whatever it might be, will find this most entertaining.

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Dr. Chambers told a caller that I am actually working for the

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Vatican. Yes, I am working for the Vatican. I am a Jesuit plant. So that information is now out there.

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The cover has been blown. I think I had done a really good job.

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I'm married and I've got two children. I thought that you couldn't get a much better cover than debating

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Catholic apologists for years and writing the Roman Catholic controversy and all the rest of this stuff.

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But Dr. Chambers, using the same kind of insightful, brilliant analysis that marks the works of Gail Ripplinger, has uncovered me as a

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Jesuit infiltrator. Yes, indeed, folks. I tell you, sometimes you just have to laugh because there's really not much else to do because these folks are serious.

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The folks in the channel will tell you, especially one of our regulars. I don't see him hiding in there at the moment, but one of our regulars is a fellow by the name of Hendrick.

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Hendrick always tells me when a fellow who uses the nick AV1611 comes into the

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Apologetics channel and I go over and try to talk with AV1611, of course authorized version 1611, and it's absolutely amazing.

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He'll post stuff from David Cloud about me, and he'll talk with other folks. But as soon as I start asking him any specific questions whatsoever, all of a sudden he has to de -tick his dog, he has to repair his phone line, he has to watch paint dry.

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There's some reason why he has to leave and will not engage in responding to anything that I have to say to him.

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It is truly amazing talking to King James Only folks, and it is fascinating to hear them accuse me of being an incipient

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Roman Catholic. Well, anyways, I had wanted to bring that up over the past couple of weeks, and I just kept forgetting to do it, and we were doing the role -playing and stuff like that, and so I just thought

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I'd let you know that Dr. Chambers has identified me as a Jesuit plant, and we are just absolutely positively amazed at that.

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I also get email, and you know, I'd have a lot more interesting email to share if certain people in the ministry were not so quick to make sure that I didn't get them knowing that I would waste my time responding to them anyways.

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And here's a good example, and I'm going to give the guy his email address because what happened was, he sent it to my

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AOL account, which I hardly ever check, and I don't know how in the world he got that. Oh, I know how he got that.

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He got that off of the Brother John Mary debate that we have on the website.

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That's what it was. Anyways, haddad48 at AOL .com.

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H -A -D -D -A -D 48 at AOL .com. Why would I give someone's email address on a webcast?

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Because he's not receiving mail, so it's irrelevant. You can't send him anything anyhow. I made the mistake of actually responding to this, and wasted my time, of course, because it bounced back to me five minutes later.

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But this is just an example, and I'm sure that I could multiply my examples greatly.

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In fact, I think those that receive emails for the ministry probably should send some of these through under Notes for Nuts or Notes for Nuts for the webcast stuff, and then

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I'd have all sorts of fun stuff to read to you.

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But anyways, it starts off the subject line is Luther and Mary, and the only thing that this person wrote was, you know, if you're going to offer

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Luther's 95 theses on your website, you really ought to offer the whole story about Luther, and how much you and your cult or church has drifted from his original beliefs.

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Of course, this was written by Dave Armstrong, and he has demonstrated what a complete fraud you are, so you will probably not read it.

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Bigotry works that way, but you ought to read it and ask yourself, just where did you and your cult or church go wrong?

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The Catholic Church is right, and you know it, comma, no name provided. No name provided.

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Well, I wrote back to HadDad48 at AOL .com, invite him to be on the program, you know, call in, but of course he doesn't accept mail.

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And here's what I wrote, just a few items for you. Number one, I will be reading your note on our webcast today.

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If you happen to get this in time, feel free to listen in, link is at www .aomin .org, or later on the archive.

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If you listen, feel free to call in, it's toll free, 866 -854 -6763, I'd be happy to let all our audience hear us interact.

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Number two, why you would think there is the slightest bit of logical argument in your position is utterly beyond me.

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I'm not a Lutheran. I disagree with Luther on many issues, and Luther's 95 theses, if you have ever bothered to read them, had to do with his objections to indulgence selling.

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He had not at that time even begun to consider the ramifications of his position, and considered himself a faithful son of the church at the time.

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Number three, the Reformed Baptist churches do not trace themselves to Luther. In fact, I would assert we are more consistent with our 1689

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Confession of Faith than most Romanists are to what Rome believed in 1689. And number four, the

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Roman Catholic Church is wrong, and that I know. And when I say that, I sign my name, which you don't seem to have the integrity or guts to do.

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Signed, James. Well, haddad48 at AOL .com will never see that, because he doesn't receive mail.

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But it was sent to him. It's in my outbox, as sent, and then it bounced back to me from AOL, saying that this fellow does not receive mail.

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He sends mail, but does not receive mail. There you go. Don't you just love those kinds of folks?

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Well, anyways, I did get a very interesting email right before the program started, and I suppose you should give credit where credit is due.

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It was an email forwarded to me that speaks of one of the lesser -known

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Roman Catholic apologists on the net, who is pulling from his website the reference to 23 ,000

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Protestant denominations. For those of you who are not familiar with what that is referring to, when you talk with Roman Catholic apologists, you will hear over and over and over again, well, there are 23 ,000

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Protestant denominations, or there are 28 ,000 Protestant denominations, or there are 33 ,830

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Protestant denominations. The number gets larger and larger and larger and larger. And this shows what happens when you believe in sola scriptura.

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Sola scriptura results in chaos. Patrick Madrid, for example, about the only argument he's ever developed against the subject of sola scriptura is that sola scriptura is ahistorical and unworkable, and it's unworkable because it produces all these denominations as if holding the sola scriptura resulted in all these denominations.

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In point of fact, when you think about it, what results in all those denominations is not holding to sola scriptura.

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It is allowing your traditions and external authorities to override the teachings of the Scriptures. But be that as it may, this is the argument that's used over and over and over again.

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Well, I have often said, let's start thinking of denominations.

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Do you think you can get to 23 ,000 denominations? Of course not!

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I mean, what kind of criteria is being used to come up with, well, now the World Christian Encyclopedia lists 33 ,830.

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Basically what that means is they will take every quote -unquote non -denominational church and create a denomination out of it.

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So if you have a church, if you have a community church that is not a part of a denomination, it is a denomination unto itself.

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Or if you have two churches across a state that cooperate together, they become a denomination if they're not associated.

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I mean, it takes everything and lumps it into one. It doesn't differentiate between cults and isms and schisms and wisdoms and everything else.

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It just throws it all into one lump, and it really is not representative in any way, shape, or form of the actual state of affairs.

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And of course, when you then start saying, now, are any of these particular organizations, you know, how long have they existed?

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What is their historic? Do they have any interest in history whatsoever? Are these groups that do any type of serious biblical interpretation at all?

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Which, of course, would be extremely relevant if you're trying to make an argument against Sola Scriptura to demonstrate that these groups do in -depth biblical exegesis, which these small little isms out there do not anyways.

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But be that as it may, here is at least one Roman Catholic apologist who's saying, you know what,

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I still think that there's a problem amongst Protestants on this issue. However, it's obvious that the mechanism that is being used by the people that are coming up with these huge numbers is not a valid mechanism, and therefore we're not going to promote that.

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And I think that's probably a very good thing. It's nice that someone would recognize that and deal with that as well.

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866, 854, 67, 63. When I disappear like that,

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I'm looking for the little flashing lights that so often I do not see.

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Yes, I do not see. Now, I don't remember the song I was just taught, sadly, just a few moments ago, and that's terrible.

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Oh, okay, I think I remembered it. I think it finally came to me. Today is a special day for some people.

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For other people, it's just another mark on the calendar. Another 24 hours that has passed and will be no more.

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Another 24 hours in which our hair has grown thinner, our waists have grown bigger, and that's a final day, as approached us ever more closely.

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But for quite some time, we have been told by one of the regular participants in our chat channel that once this day arrived, that for some reason, though we don't do this for other folks, we are supposed to treat this particular individual in a special way.

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Now, I think part of this has to do with the fact that this particular individual is an alien, and I don't mean that in the

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X -Files type alien, though that's possible.

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This person actually comes from England. I'm sorry, the United Kingdom.

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He's British, as is British, you know. And so for some reason, this particular individual feels that we are supposed to sing songs to him in recognition of his birthday.

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And I just honestly think that is just an amazing thing that someone would want that to be done for them.

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But you know, the British are very easily offended. Have you ever noticed that? The stiff upper lip stuff just really doesn't mean a whole lot, and it doesn't end up coming across in practice a lot, sadly.

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So we need to do something. So my friend Warren helped me out. He taught me a song right before I came on the air.

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I don't really remember much of it, but Warren taught me this song, and I think it fulfills the demand that has been made upon me that I have to sing happy birthday to this silly

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British person. So as I recall, the song went somewhat along the lines of, this is our birthday song.

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It is not very long. Okay, and that's it. And I think it does, did you hear the clapping? I'm not sure if we caught the clapping on the thing there, because the microphone heads my direction.

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But anyways, that is the birthday song, and you got it? Oh, good, good.

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So we've done it, and it is finished at that particular point.

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Anyways, that has nothing to do with anything else we were doing. However, we did need to do that, just because there is nothing more distracting in a chat channel than a pouting

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Brit. And so hopefully that will avoid the pouting

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Brit look, because that stiff upper lip when it quivers, that's just, it's really tough.

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Anyways, one of the main topics that I would like to talk about today,

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I'm not English. Okay, I'm not English. Fine, okay, you're British.

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Okay, what, Welch, maybe? You want to get down to the specific township or something? The specific topic that I would like to discuss with you today is, you can hear me banging into the microphone here, because I'm dragging the

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Encyclopedia of Mormonism around. There's not a lot of room to put this stuff here. This coming

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Friday evening, this coming Friday evening, we are going to be having a debate.

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In fact, I have the information now. Let me, where did

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I put that information? I actually got the specific information concerning where everything is going to be, and of course now

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I can't find it. That's real good. You want to give the address and everything up there in Salt Lake City.

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We're going to be having a debate in Salt Lake City this coming

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Friday evening. I believe it is at 7 o 'clock, and we are going to be debating the subject of free agency.

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That is the specific LDS term. Oh, here it is. Friday, March 30th, 7 p .m.,

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Christ Orthodox Presbyterian Church will be hosting a debate between myself and Richard R.

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Hopkins. The subject of the debate will be free agency, is it biblical? Then it says something about me, a few of my books, and it says

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Mr. Hopkins is a Mormon apologist and the president of Horizon Publishers. Oh, the president of Horizon Publishers, that explains much.

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I'm not sure if he took it over or what, but that was, Horizon Publishers published Mr. Hopkins' book,

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Biblical Mormonism, as well as another book, How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God.

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That tells me something because there was, I'm not being, I'm just pointing out that the book that I read,

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Biblical Mormonism, was filled with all sorts of stuff that a professional editor would have caught, like spelling isogesis, which by the way is e -i -s -e -g -e -s -i -s, as isogesis, i -s -o -g -e -s -i -s, which has something to do with an isosceles triangle,

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I'm not sure what, but anyways. The debate is free of the public and will take place at the West Valley Family Fitness Center in Community Room A.

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For more information call Christ Presbyterian at 801 -532 -5066.

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801 -532 -5066. That is the number to call for the debate with Mr.

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Hopkins. Okay, so those of you up there in Salt Lake City, I hope to see you

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Friday evening, 7 p .m., this coming Friday evening, for the debate against Richard Hopkins.

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I forgot to ask the powers that be, and some of you know who that is, what we're doing next week.

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My gut feeling is sort of like a best -of program or something, I don't know, but we'll see what is, what comes my direction as to what we're doing next week, because the rest of us best of dead air.

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Yes, the best of dead air will air next week. Actually, no, no, no, no.

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We need to have something other than the best of dead air. We'll come up with something. Next week we will have a best -of program because we're going to be in Salt Lake City, and we're going to be discussing the gospel with all sorts of LDS people on the sidewalks outside of the

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LDS temple. Actually, mainly outside of the big meeting hall there, north of the temple area.

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And so that's what we're going to be doing. So I've got the debate Friday night, and then the outreach all day

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Saturday, and then just a few weeks after that we start, well actually it's not even full week after that, we start the outreach at the

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LDS Easter pageant in Mesa as well. So we're going to be busy, busy, busy during the next couple of weeks in doing outreach.

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And I'm going to be extremely busy because sitting here on my desk, before we get to free agency, sitting here on my desk is the galleys of the

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God who justifies. The God who justifies. And that is my next book.

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It will be published by Bethany House hopefully by about May or so, Lord willing. And it is a, right now, without bibliography, without index, and without any of the other editing that's supposed to go on, it's right at 380 pages, so it should be right around 400 pages when it is all completed.

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And it is a extensive discussion, primarily exegetical discussion of the doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone, not through anything else, not through works of merit, not through works performed in a state of grace, but by grace through faith alone.

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So that is sitting here on my desk, which means that over the next week or so, I'm going to be very, very busy looking very closely at it because there is a large amount of original languages in it that we need to examine very closely and make sure they are accurate.

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So that is coming up as well. And for those of you who are interested in such things as calendars, first of all, don't go to our website and look for a calendar, because that would be an exercise in futility, actually.

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But anyways, don't forget, May 24th and May 31st are the big debates in Huntington, Long Island, the 24th against Barry Lynn on homosexuality, and the 31st against Father Peter Stravinskis on purgatory.

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So I have a lot to be doing between now and then. Please pray for us, support us with your prayers.

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Rich did mention to me, there have been some of you, in fact, someone in the chat channel just last evening asked if it would be possible to set up a regular giving option on the webpage, and I mentioned to that person that that is actually something that Mr.

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Pierce is working on. And so please remember that we are supported by you folks that listen and you folks that are aided and assisted by this type of work.

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Now, with all of that said, we turn 866 -854 -6763.

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I just want to mention I sent a caller packing because the subject would only have had interest to me and the caller at best, and didn't think it was really an appropriate topic for a general audience.

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And so anyone else who'd like to call in, 866 -854 -6763.

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Free agency in Mormonism is a term that you need to understand.

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It is analogous in many ways to the subject of free will in the debate between Reformed people and Arminians, between Reformed people and Roman Catholics.

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It is analogous, but it's more than that.

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And that's going to be one of the challenges that I'm going to have in the debate this coming

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Friday evening. The challenge I'm going to have, first of all, it's going to be a very short debate. Mr.

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Hopkins doesn't want it to be a long debate, doesn't want to be an in -depth debate the way we do many of the debates that we do on Long Island.

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It's not going to be a three, three -and -a -half -hour thing. It's probably about 2 .15 at the most. But I think

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I have like 15 -minute opening statements, as I recall. And in that period of time, what

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I'm going to have to do is not only present, fairly briefly probably, a biblical presentation of the deadness of man and sin, but I also have to include in that a presentation of the fact that man is a creature of God.

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Not the offspring of a God who is of the same species as he is, which is what you have in Mormonism, but that man is the creature of God.

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I'm going to have to press the potter and the pots analogy of Scripture, which is so very foreign to the

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Mormon system. And in so doing, attempt to communicate why it is that Mormonism, as a system, has no foundation for understanding the biblical doctrine of sin, and hence the biblical doctrine of grace.

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Now why can't Mormonism understand sin or grace? Well, I'll tell you about that right after we take our first break 866 -854 -6763 is the number.

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Why don't you give us a call and we'll be right back. Is the

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Mormon my brother? Bethany House Publishers presents James White's book Is the Mormon my brother?

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In television campaigns, para -church events, and clergy fellowships all across the United States, Mormons are presenting themselves as mainstream

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Christians. Is it unloving or backward to say they aren't real Christians? In contrast to Christian monotheism, the belief in one

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God, Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who lived on another planet and was exalted to the status of God, and that Mormon men can also become gods upon death and resurrection.

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In his book Is the Mormon my brother? James White demonstrates how this fact alone means Mormons and Christians are irreconcilably at odds at faith's most basic level.

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Is the Mormon my brother? is now available from Alpha and Omega Ministries Book Ministry. You can order Is the

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Mormon my brother? from our website at www .aomin .org.

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The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

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The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with us this coming Lord's Day. Our morning

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Bible study begins at 930 a .m. and our worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m.

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on Sunday and Wednesday prayer meeting is at 7. We are located at 3805

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North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 26 Grace or look us up on the web at www .prbc

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.org. And welcome back to Dividing Line.

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My name is James White. The number is 866 -854 -6763. Feel free to get involved in the conversation today.

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Free agency is going to be the subject of the debate this coming Friday evening.

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And as I was saying, one of the greatest challenges I have is really speaks to the challenge that we have regularly in sharing the gospel with LDS people.

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And that's basically goes along these lines. How do you impress upon someone the necessity of sovereign and free grace when they believe that God is an exalted man of the same species as we are?

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That the real difference between God and man is that God has progressed farther than we have, but we too may progress to become gods.

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And if any LDS man, either listening to this program or that you're speaking to, believes that they too can become a god someday, then it will be true that the

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God of their planet was once in a fallen state. That he was once in a position where he had to be redeemed.

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And so in light of that, you have no potter making the pots.

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You don't have a sovereign God who creates man. You don't have a meaningful foundation for law to be transcendent.

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In fact, I don't have the quotation in front of me. I could probably dig it up fairly quickly. But there is a quotation from Skousen where he talks about the fact that if God ever did anything that violated the sense of justice of the intelligences in the universe, that they would withdraw their support from him and the power of God would collapse.

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Now, Skousen is not a general authority in the sense that's not LDS scripture, and there may be

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Mormons who reject that, but it is perfectly consistent with the idea that is presented once you have an anthropomorphic

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God, or as Mormons actually say, a theomorphic man is the way that many of them like to put it.

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Once you have a theomorphic man, you have no basis for transcendent law, hence you have no basis for true condemnation for sin, and the whole concept of sin becomes completely muddled.

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That is why the whole concept of sin in Mormonism, especially in the

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Book of Mormon, is extremely difficult to follow. That is, you think of what the

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Book of Mormon states and compare it with scripture, and it is so far removed from what the

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Bible says. Now, what's interesting about that from a number of ways, and for example, I refer to a 2nd

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Nephi 225, Adam felt that men might be and men aren't, they might have joy. This idea of the necessity of the fall, that Adam was placed in a position by choice, where he was placed between two different conflicting commands, and he made the right choice.

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He fell upwards, in essence, is how it has been expressed to me. That this doctrine of sin found in the

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Book of Mormon is one of the earliest departures on the part of Joseph Smith from biblical

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Christianity. Those of you who are familiar with the history of Mormonism know that such things as the plurality of gods was a later development.

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The Book of Mormon doesn't teach it. The Book of Mormon has no concept of eternal progression and all the things we've talked about over the past couple of weeks in regards to the

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Mormon concept and Mormon beliefs. But the Book of Mormon does clearly present what

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I can only describe as a Pelagian view of man. A Pelagian view of man.

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Fully Pelagian. In that while the Book of Mormon speaks of the grace of God and the grace of Christ, it always does so in such a way as to make grace something that meets us only after we have expended our own best efforts.

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One of the most important passages at that point is Moroni chapter 10 verse 32, a passage that we frequently quote in talking with LDS people.

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And Moroni 10 32 in the Book of Mormon says, "...yea, come unto Christ and be perfected in him and deny yourselves of all ungodliness and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love

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God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you that by his grace you may be made perfect in Christ and if by the grace of God you're perfect in Christ you can in no wise deny the power of God."

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So you love God perfectly, you rid yourself of all ungodliness, then the grace of Christ is sufficient for you.

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Now that obviously cannot possibly be understood within the context of a belief that man is dead in sin, that man is an enemy of God, that man is enslaved to sin.

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Any of these things simply cannot possibly fit within the context of LDS anthropology.

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And so that's why you have 2 Nephi 25 23 where we notice by grace we're saved after all we can do.

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And that is not interpreted by Joseph Smith or Mormon leaders as, well you do everything you can, everything you can do is nothing.

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It's finally by grace that you're saved. No, you do all you can do and then grace meets you there.

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That's consistent with Deuteronomy 1032. That's certainly how the church leadership interpreted it in the

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LDS Bible Dictionary. I know that there are folks at Brigham Young University who have attempted to in some way inculcate a higher respect for the grace of God into Mormonism, but they they can't do it.

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They can't do it because Joseph Smith, his mark is too deeply inscribed on the very surface of what

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Mormonism is. And Joseph Smith did not understand the grace of God. He rejected its necessity.

37:11

He perverted its meaning. And until you remove the effects of Joseph Smith, which would require rescinding your belief that he was a prophet, then you simply cannot squish grace into his

37:26

Pelagian system. It just is not possible in any way shape or form. So once you have that in mind, once you see that Mormonism does not have a sovereign

37:37

God, it has no creator. There is no creator in Mormonism. And its doctrine of sin is completely without meaningful basis and in fact is so watered down, then the idea of free agency and the idea of free will, you can understand how absolutely definitional it becomes of the

38:06

LDS position. Now another thing to try to bring up in the debate, and in fact my opponent could listen in, and that would be fine.

38:17

I wouldn't care if he did. I've always thought that it's just fine to let your opponent know where you're going to go. I would prefer that my opponent had actually read my materials.

38:25

I sort of doubt very much that that has taken place, but it would actually,

38:31

I think, improve the debate greatly if he had read the materials that I've produced on this particular subject.

38:36

I think it would make for a better debate anyways. But one of the things, one of the points

38:42

I'm going to make, and I think will, I'm going to say, here's an indication of why

38:48

I need to be declared the winner of this debate. Because the question is, is free agency biblical?

38:56

And if you have to change the Bible to insert your concept into the

39:04

Bible, then you're obviously proving that your concept is not, in fact, biblical, right?

39:11

I mean, if I said that the Book of Mormon preaches double predestination, and then went into the

39:21

Book of Mormon and changed all sorts of verses to insert it, and to take out those places where it denies that, that would pretty much prove that my assertion that it's in line with the

39:34

Book of Mormon is false. Well, Joseph Smith was very much opposed to the concept of man's deadness and sin, and to the concept of predestination and election.

39:49

I'm going to give you biblical evidence of that in a moment, but I think there's a reason for this. And those of you who know about Joseph Smith's history probably know why he was.

40:01

I think the reason that Joseph Smith Jr. was so personally opposed to the

40:08

Reformed position, opposed to the belief in predestination and election,

40:13

I'd be interested in seeing if anyone in the chat room right now could guess what I'm moving toward here.

40:19

Why do you think Joseph Smith was so opposed? What in his early life would give you an indication that, in point of fact,

40:29

Joseph Smith detested the the Reformed perspective and would lean toward more of a free will view?

40:38

Well, the answer is pretty clear if you're familiar with his history. Joseph Smith had an older brother named

40:46

Alvin, and Alvin died, and when, at least there's, you know, we don't know exactly what was said, but the documentation that comes from Joseph Smith's family and acquaintances is united on the fact that the

41:07

Presbyterian minister who performed the funeral broadly hinted, at the very least, or directly stated, according to some, that Joseph's brother went to hell.

41:29

Right there, as a part of the funeral, this man went to hell.

41:35

And I know some Presbyterian ministers who might do that. And that probably was the exact truth because it was well known that Joseph Smith's family was involved in magic and in the occult and all sorts of wacky stuff like that.

41:52

So, as a result, Joseph Smith's father would never go to the

41:57

Presbyterian Church, had a strong animus against the Presbyterian Church, and isn't it interesting that documentation has turned up?

42:05

In 1826, which, for those of you, again, who are familiar with Joseph Smith's history, this allegedly is a number of years after the supposed

42:16

First Vision, but just further evidence there was no First Vision. His name appears on the

42:22

Sunday school rolls of the Methodist Church. Now, of course, the Methodists, as a denomination, are very much on the other side of the fence when it comes to the issues of predestination, election, and the will of man.

42:38

They are thoroughly Arminian and promote a very strongly man -centered perspective.

42:46

Even though we did have a caller last week who is part of the United Methodist Church and is

42:52

Reformed, he will tell you, historically, that he is very much alone most of the time when it comes to those particular discussions that take place amongst the

43:05

Methodists, be that as it may. Joseph Smith had a strong predisposition against the

43:15

Reformed position, which would mean a predisposition against the concept of predestination, election, the deadness of man and sin, so on and so forth.

43:24

Now, I think that then will explain why you have in the

43:30

Book of Mormon, which, as I said, is written 1829, so a good bit before Joseph Smith begins to develop his really weird ideas in regards to polytheism and things like that.

43:45

And, in fact, the Book of Mormon attempts to be Trinitarian. It attempts to explain the Trinity.

43:50

It fails. It presents a modalistic viewpoint. But, you know, it gives an explanation very much like that which you would have from a frontier

44:03

Methodist in 1829 who isn't overly educated and isn't familiar with a lot of these things.

44:10

But the Book of Mormon presents a very non -Reformed view of man.

44:17

And then, a few years later, when Joseph Smith started actually believing his own claims of being a prophet, he decided to give us the inspired translation of the

44:27

Bible. Now, Joseph Smith couldn't read a word of the biblical languages.

44:33

He, you know, took some Hebrew and, you know, memorized a few vocabulary words. That hardly makes you much of an expert.

44:41

He made some changes in the text of Scripture. Now, I can't imagine,

44:48

I can't imagine what the Bible would have looked like had

44:55

Joseph Smith done the inspired translation at the end of his life rather than the beginning of his quote -unquote ministry.

45:03

The changes would have been incredibly radical. And why do I say that? Well, look at the Book of Abraham. Look at the gods did this and the gods did that and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

45:12

They would have been a huge change. But John 644,

45:18

John 644 is a passage that most people are aware is central to the presentation of the bondage of man in sin.

45:33

In fact, I just finished a couple days ago a length subject of John 6, primarily 37 to 39, but 44 came up in the discussion.

45:58

That is on our website. In fact, there is a, the main article on our website right now links to this.

46:06

And it's 211 K long. It's huge. 31 pages if you print it out just to warn you.

46:12

It's not short. But there's a lot of discussion and one of the things that came up there was the issue of John 644.

46:21

Jesus said, No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

46:29

Now there are no meaningful translational questions concerning this passage.

46:36

The Greek language is very straightforward. There are no real issues in regards to the transmission of the passage.

46:44

That is the Greek manuscripts of John, whether they are P66 and P75, which date to around the year 200, to as late as the manuscripts underlie the

46:57

Textus Receptus, all the way up to the time of Erasmus. The Greek manuscripts of the

47:02

Gospel of John all say the same thing at John 644. There really isn't any translational issue.

47:10

And yet Joseph Smith changed John 644 and he changed it radically.

47:16

Now remember, here's what John 644 actually says. No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

47:24

Fairly short, fairly straightforward. Here is the Joseph Smith version, the inspired version of John 644.

47:35

No man can come to me except he doeth the will of my father who hath sent me.

47:41

And this is the will of him who has sent me that she receive the son. For the father beareth record of him and he who receiveth the testimony and doeth the will of him who sent me,

47:51

I will raise him up in the resurrection of the just. End quote. Now that's about three times longer than the real

48:03

John 644. But you'll notice what's missing. Instead of what the scriptures say, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him.

48:17

That is, there is a fundamental inability in the fallen man. No one has the capacity in and of themselves to come to Christ unless, unless the father, the father draws that person to the son and then the son raises that person up.

48:39

In other words, John 644 continues the same thought as John 637. All the father has given me will come to me and the one who comes to me,

48:47

I will never cast out. Those who are given by the father to the son, all of them come to the son and they're never cast out by the son.

48:55

These the same ones who the father draws to the son and the son raises up in John 644. However, there is no corresponding section to the divine action of the father in the

49:10

Joseph Smith version. No man can come to me except he doeth the will of my father who has sent me.

49:17

So in other words, instead of a divine action being that which fulfills the inability in Joseph Smith's version, the inability is removed because the assertion is made that men have the ability to do the will of the father and that by doing the will of the father you can come to the son.

49:35

So here's one last time. Here is the John 644 in the Joseph Smith version. No man can come to me except he doeth the will of my father who has sent me and this is the will of him who has sent me that you receive the son for the father bareth record of him and he who received with the testimony and doeth the will of him who sent me.

49:51

I'll raise him up in the resurrection of the just. Now, in case I haven't made it clear, there is no evidence whatsoever that the

50:03

Apostle John wrote anything of the kind. It would have nothing to do with the context. There are no manuscripts to support it.

50:10

Joseph Smith chose the wrong book of the Bible to try to pervert in that way because it is the Gospel of John that without any question we know has the earliest manuscript evidence available to us.

50:24

And so Joseph Smith is just sitting around and Joseph Smith doesn't like John 644. He doesn't like what it says and so he changes it.

50:35

He changed a number of passages like that because he didn't like what it had to say.

50:41

So if you have to change the Bible to fit your beliefs in that probably means your beliefs are not biblical in the first place.

50:50

And that will be one of the things that we we present there. All righty 866 -854 -6763.

50:58

We have one caller online at the moment. I saw some discussions in in the channel about the influence also of Sidney Rigdon upon Joseph Smith.

51:10

Sidney Rigdon was a Campbellite. And so let's talk with John up in Salt Lake again.

51:16

Hi John. Hey how you doing. Doing pretty good. My question is when you brought up Joseph Smith being actually the influence of Methodism in Joseph Smith's younger years and why he didn't like predestination.

51:31

I'm not for sure whether Sidney Rigdon I think Sidney Rigdon I can't recall my Mormon history but influenced

51:37

Joseph Smith in the later years. Well I think he had an influence on him during the thirties and Sidney Rigdon was a

51:47

Campbellite. Hence early quote unquote Church of Christ which of course is thoroughly

51:52

Pelagian as well. And so there would be a similar influence there at least especially on the main issue and that being the concept of man's will and and sin and the sovereignty of God and and all the rest that kind of stuff.

52:09

OK. Because I wasn't certain whether or not I was just curious on how much you think

52:15

Sidney Rigdon actually influenced. I realized the book was already published prior to that. Right.

52:21

Yeah. Well I think that's I think he did have an influence on Joseph Smith. I think

52:26

Joseph Smith though once he began to take his own claims seriously which is an amazing thing.

52:33

Once he started to do that he he found a way to be influenced without showing that he was influenced.

52:41

That is if someone were to give him an insight he would find a way of announcing that insight but doing it in such a way that it wasn't obvious that it had come from someone else.

52:52

So I think that he was influenced by Rigdon I think he was influenced by a lot of folks but I think external influences were only relevant maybe up through thirty five thirty six because by that point he starts going so far out of the beaten path that he's really got to start making stuff up on his own the book of Abraham and you know the gods did this and the gods did that and all the rest that kind of stuff.

53:18

Okay. All right. Thank you. Hey thanks for calling. God bless you. 866 8 5 4 67 63 8 6 6 8 5 4 6 7 6 3 is the phone number if you'd like to join in.

53:31

Last week I actually it wasn't me someone else elder elder

53:38

Han read from the book Mormon Doctrine by Bruce Conkey.

53:46

I almost caught myself there didn't I. And the section that he read started off churches which teach that men are predestined to gain salvation or damnation according to the election of God regardless of the acts the individual of course that's a false statement right there regardless of the acts of the individual damnation is always based upon the acts the individual and their union with Adam and his fall.

54:13

But anyways find no place in our theology for the true doctrine of agency. And the reason I want to mention that is the fact that in Mormon thinking free agency predestination election grace all of these are tightly bound together very tightly bound together and as a result we have to keep that in mind when we are attempting to explain to the

54:43

Mormon the necessity of grace the sovereignty of grace a number of years ago and I should have actually brought this up and I'm kicking myself for not having to do so for not having done so I did a radio program with a van hail up in Salt Lake it was just he and I in this little studio in that time the radio station and the studio really close to where Motel six is the airport

55:13

Motel six is also walking distance and we didn't get a lot of phone calls so it was just he and I feel like I don't remember how long it was like two hours or something like that and we just discussed

55:25

Calvinism we discussed reformed theology and Mormonism and I remember very clearly

55:31

Mr. Hale saying you know given the presuppositions you start with which would include things such as a

55:40

God who is utterly unlike man creator God is eternally been God the inerrancy of Scripture things like that is the beginning you know starting with the presuppositions you have your system makes sense and I remember pressing a van very strongly on the subject of Romans nine because all of the objections that he raised to that to the reformed doctrine is pretty much exactly what

56:09

Paul responds to in Romans chapter nine and so it really is a part of Mormon thinking on this particular subject and predestination and this issue of the calling and the issue of free agency they're all bound together in LDS theology in the encyclopedia of Mormonism there is an article on predestination and I just realized that instead of reading that it probably best to go ahead and take time out for our break and then then

56:48

I can read it without having to rush through it and so we'd like to get you online at eight six six eight five four six seven six three eight six six eight five four six seven six three will be right back answering those who claim that only the

57:12

King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt

57:21

Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author

57:27

James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611 you can order your copy of James White's book the

57:40

King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomin

57:45

.org the conference on Rome over 13 hours examining major doctrines and issues that separate

57:51

Roman Catholicism from biblical Christianity featuring the leading Protestant apologists on Roman America today listen to dr.

57:58

Eric Fenton's presentation Rome has spoken the matter is debatable when the Roman Catholic apologists insist that the principle of sola scriptura has resulted in over twenty -five thousand denominations we should in turn insist that the principle of Scripture plus an infallible interpreter has resulted in an even greater number of religious cults pastor

58:18

Rob Zins addresses the evangelical romance with Rome there was not a Roman Catholic Church in the first five centuries there was just to be sure a

58:26

Catholic Church but this is the universal designation of the body of Christ it is not

58:32

Romanism pastor David King the impact of Romans 117 on Martin Luther how is one himself to have that righteousness which

58:41

God requires gay demands and which is utterly indispensable to salvation it is by and by faith in the

58:53

Lord Jesus Christ and we lay hold of the Lord Jesus by faith alone and dr.

59:00

James White examines the venerate and images do you think of such a person were brought before Moses having just been caught bowing down before a statue and lighting candles and rocking back and forth in prayer do you think

59:13

Moses would have accepted the excuse I wasn't giving Latria Moses I was only giving

59:19

Julia other topics addressed in this tape series is there something about Mary scripture sufficiency the Roman versus Protestant view canonizing the apocrypha an assault on scripture

59:28

Rome sacraments an assault on Christ's gospel and purgatory an assault on Christ's perfect atonement look for this tape series and many others at a omen org that's a o m i n dot o

59:39

RG the conference on Rome and welcome back for the last half hour yes that means you only have 30 minutes if you too want to join in today and that means that certain people who who said they would call in if I if I sang and I did sing

01:00:11

I no one ever told me what I was supposed to say only have 30 minutes in which to do so eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three the encyclopedia of Mormonism under predestination says the

01:00:25

Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints rejects the belief in predestination that God predetermines the salvation of the damn nation to every individual the gospel teaches that genuine human freedom and genuine responsibility individual agency in both thought and action are crucial in both the development and the outcome of a person's life church doctrine rejects the strict dual option providing only heaven or hell is an outcome since people very widely in their levels of spiritual attainment at the same time

01:01:00

Latter -day Saints recognize both the indispensable need for the grace of God manifested through Jesus Christ and the effective spiritual guidance that comes through divine for ordination for ordination the

01:01:13

LDS position is based in part on the teachings of Paul that God will render to every man according to his deeds and there is no respective persons with God in other words they don't understand what respective persons mean and in fact end up making

01:01:24

God a respective persons because they say that God will respond to what a person is in and of himself rather than freely and by his own will these two principles provide a basis for understanding

01:01:34

Paul's use the term predestination the term apparently connoted to be ordained beforehand for godly labor that's put in quotes and no reference is given because I can guarantee you there's no

01:01:47

Greek lexicon on the planet that gives that as the meaning but hey what the Greek means is pretty much irrelevant in the sense that one's potential or calling has been recognized and declared this interpretation conforms with the

01:01:59

Greek term Paul used pro or Rizzo and does not denote an irreversible or irresistible predetermination if you're wondering how they get that from the text there is no way to get that from the text so predestination is to a a role to a job in essence not relevant to salvation of course he's just chapter one has a little bit to say about that then under the section of agency there is a much longer longer than predestination much longer entry in agency in the first section and in essence just simply to sum it up the the fundamental assertion being made by the passage this particular section is quite simply this that the action of sin can be said to enslave us to its desires but every single individual has the ability in and of themselves to free themselves from the influence of sin through repentance so you have at least a semi

01:03:26

Pelagian perspective and probably even more so a Pelagian perspective being expressed in both of these particular passages.

01:03:37

So this is the position of free agency that is found in Mormonism it is actually consistent in Mormonism I would suggest that that the concept of human autonomy is inconsistent for a theist a

01:03:54

Christian theist but it is not inconsistent for a Mormon who is not a

01:03:59

Christian theist he is not a Christian anything and he is a polytheist so it's consistent in Mormonism it is inconsistent in a

01:04:11

Christian theistic system so it'll be an excuse me a very interesting debate coming up this

01:04:16

Friday evening in in Salt Lake City and I hope those of you up in that area will join with us we have some folks online and we start by going to the capital of the light the state where the lights blink and we need to go actually both are calling from California which might mean that the light is still on I'm not sure but Sacramento which is spelled

01:04:45

S. A. C. R. A. M. E. N. T. O. Sacra Mento is the capital of California that's where Daniel is.

01:04:54

Hi Daniel how are you? How are you? I'm doing just great. Great. First of all

01:04:59

I just wanted to thank you very much for your ministry and I just finished reading the Forgotten Trinity. Oh great.

01:05:05

I was blown away. Very excellent book. Well wonderful. I'm glad you got a chance to see it. Yeah it's great. My question was

01:05:10

I've heard a couple of different takes on the Mormonism the

01:05:16

Mormon's perspective on Michael the Archangel and I was curious as to I understand that we are all

01:05:24

I guess part of according to them part of the same race or whatever right to the level of God but Michael the

01:05:32

Archangel is curious to say that he is that he's now exalted or well you're right there have been all sorts of different views that have been taken regarding Michael the

01:05:44

Archangel in Mormonism the main reason there's a lot of confusion is due to the fact that Brigham Young and other early

01:05:52

LDS leaders taught a doctrine that identified Adam as our

01:05:58

God the Adam God theory and today Michael is identified with Adam and so polygamists say all sorts of things about Adam slash

01:06:09

Michael and all the rest that kind of stuff so there's there's there's a lot of argumentation it goes back and forth so on so forth

01:06:17

Bruce R. McConkie says concerning Michael our great

01:06:23

Prince Michael known in mortality as Adam stands next to Christ in the eternal plan of salvation and progression in pre -existence

01:06:30

Michael was the most intelligent powerful and mighty spirit son of God who was destined to come to this earth accepting only the firstborn under whose direction and pursuant pursuant to whose counsel he worked and so obviously it says in the creation of the earth

01:06:44

Michael played a part second only to that of Christ when Lucifer rebelled there was war in heaven it was

01:06:49

Michael who led the host of the faithful in casting Satan out et cetera et cetera et cetera now as to the problem of exaltation this is really you might ask the question

01:07:01

Well how could he not be exalted but there was no temple yet and so if he's become an archangel then he is not exalted the status of a god now there are

01:07:12

Mormons who speculate that Jesus likewise will have the opportunity during the millennium to come to earth and to take wives and you have children and become fully exalted himself so I don't know if that opportunity would it all be offered as far as Adam because he's already

01:07:35

Michael the archangel so I guess that he would not have obtained the highest level of exaltation now when they say when they the individual reaches a level of exaltation when they're

01:07:47

God a god now that God of a planet or of a universe or or how do they actually view that good question originally it was

01:07:59

God of a planet and planets in the universe but I at the beginning a few weeks ago read from a church manual achieving a celestial marriage where in speaking of exaltation of Godhood they used the phrase universe says and that is a way that modern apologists are trying to get around this idea of having this one universe that is filled with all sorts of gods is to postulate that there are literally billions and billions of universe says that I guess would exist on some different plane of existence or something along those lines it's difficult to deal with and you know when you get into the end of the

01:08:43

Internet and you start with all the apologists running around it's very difficult to get a handle on exactly where they're coming from exactly what their little different viewpoint is but it's certainly certainly keeps you on your toes but that way

01:09:00

OK thanks thanks Daniel. All right. You have a good day. All right. Bye bye. Bye. Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three let's talk with Johnny also in Whittier California I'm going to the

01:09:12

California calls first we'll go to Clayton here in a moment because like I said we could be in the middle of talking with Johnny when lights go out and Johnny could just disappear and that's because Johnny you live in in a state filled with fruits and nuts and you all haven't allowed yourself to build any electric plants for a long long time and you'd be running out of electricity.

01:09:34

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it happened right now being the technical difficulties you've had with me in the past but my question today and it's a pleasure to speak with you again

01:09:44

James yes sir my question has to do with subordinationism and I'm sure you're familiar it's got to do in part with Mormonism and in part with Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm pretty sure you're familiar with a pamphlet or a little magazine that the

01:10:00

Jehovah's Witnesses give out for free whenever they talk to Trinitarians called should you believe in the

01:10:06

Trinity right OK well there's a section there and I'm sure you've read it where it talks about the Anthony seen father where they say that men like to Julian and I believe

01:10:16

Clement and Ignatius and I believe Justin Martyr actually they skipped Ignatius in that one.

01:10:21

Are you sure. Oh well anyway they they did go to Justin Martyr and they said to Julian I'm not sure if they mentioned origin or never in front of me but they all they're saying that all of these men denied that Jesus Christ had an equal essence with with the father or something like that and I've also heard this from Mormons that basically you know one of the

01:10:43

Mormons on the email list I have he goes on to say that your

01:10:48

Julian was not a Trinitarian was not because he was subordination is then the problem

01:10:55

I have is that I don't know what your view is on this one because I've listened to a lot of men like Dr.

01:11:00

Walter Martin for example whom looked at passages like proverbs chapter eight verse twenty two where it's that where wisdom is being personified in the female gender and it says the

01:11:10

Lord or Jehovah possessed me but the Hebrew I think also can mean produced or created well

01:11:16

I think Athanasius was right to point out that if you attempted to render it that way that would mean that there was a time when

01:11:23

God was not wise which is sort of silly but you're actually talking about page seven of that particular pamphlets and yeah they did skip

01:11:31

Ignatius you're thinking of Uranus the reason that they skipped Ignatius for obvious reasons was because Ignatius has so many testimonies the deity of Christ that they did do a hack job on him later and I've written an article a very lengthy paper demonstrating their hack job on Ignatius which may be on our

01:11:48

Web site I'd have to look really quickly but they have Justin Martyr they forget about the fact that Justin Martyr is one of the earliest people who used the passages about Jehovah in the

01:11:59

Old Testament identified Jesus as Jehovah in the New Testament Aaron as the Clement of Alexandria and if anyone can figure out what

01:12:05

Clement of Alexandria believe about anything I will I'll give them a nickel to tell

01:12:10

Ian to tell Ian had all sorts of problems remember to tell him became a montanist and to tell him was not a very not a very wise man and what he believed concerning Christ is very much up in the air but he really

01:12:24

I think is is more unstable than he was stable origin obviously a complete whack job as far as theology goes and they then quoted from Lamson who of course was a

01:12:38

Unitarian and doesn't deal with the vast majority of the Orthodox testimony but basically let's just put it this way the the

01:12:47

Antonine seen fathers would when you look at what's available and I'm sitting here

01:12:52

I've got the ten volumes next to me here on my left and my desk when you look at that that is in essence a snapshot of the writings that have survived over the period of say two hundred and fifty to not not not a full three hundred twenty five years because of course church starts are so about about two hundred and seventy to two hundred ninety years now it would be similar to going down to your local

01:13:19

Christian bookstore and attempting to determine orthodoxy on the basis of what you could get out of your

01:13:28

Christian bookstore you would find some good books in your Christian bookstore I would hope but you'd also find all sorts of of abject silliness in a

01:13:39

Christian bookstore I mean eschatologically speaking there's a really popular series these days that I think is abjectly silly but it but but it's based on popularity is would would appear greatly in in various under Christian bookstores you would find books by T .D.

01:13:56

Jakes who is a modalist you would find books by people who would be subordination is the early church fathers one of the main problems that people have one of the main problems that Roman Catholics have is that they invest in them the idea that each one of these individuals is described by the scriptures as being a taught and stable individual and they leave no room for the fact that the

01:14:23

New Testament teaches us that there are many who are untaught and unstable who distort the scriptures their own destruction who are they did they write are there going to be people who wrote books who were untaught and unstable so the the writings of early church fathers aside from being uninspired only give us pretty much the same breadth of viewpoints that we find at your local

01:14:45

Christian bookstore that does not mean that God's truth is unknown unless you think that it has to be channeled through those sources and once you recognize the the lack of of training that many of these people had many of them could not read the original languages many of them did not have any backgrounds concerning the

01:15:04

Old Testament anything like that the amazing thing is actually the the the fact that there is not a wider view a wider number of perspectives that are expressed not that there is a wide view of perspectives that are expressed so it's really easy for someone to attempt to pick and choose and say well here's someone who believed like I did now the

01:15:27

Mormons have a real problem with that the Mormons in reality their their attempt to use theosis and demonization all the rest that stuff fails there just simply wasn't anyone before Joseph Smith that ever ever came up with his ideas but other people who are subordination as to people like that can find their favorite individuals in early church fathers and just as I could if I went to a

01:15:49

Christian bookstore today that if a person's view of truth and depend upon that then you're pretty much up a creek without a paddle because the fact that that's not where truth is defined so what you're saying is that many of these church fathers being that they were influence were not really as informed in the the writings of the of the

01:16:10

Jewish understanding of God that they came up with some heretical ideas well well let me not necessarily that was just simply one aspect that was one glaring aspect of the interpretations offered of various things by a number of the early church fathers was that separation that took place between Christians and Judaism to such an extent that allegorical interpretation of the

01:16:34

Old Testament the role of the Old Testament the New Testament was definitely deeply impacted by that that's one aspect of it but there are also a number of numbers of other aspects to where for example

01:16:47

Augustine his entire doctrine of justification was deeply influenced by the fact that he primarily read the

01:16:53

Latin and was unfamiliar of the background of the Greek term to kind of soon a decay and so when he looked at the

01:17:02

Latin word to make just he misunderstood what it was in the

01:17:07

Greek and let the Latin override the Greek. Now if he had been in a position where there were people to provide correction or in exchange or or you know any reality there it might have helped but he wasn't and so you have a complete error in regards to the meaning of that word in in August and now you might find in August and great things which you can the simple fact matter is early church fathers are a mixed bag and the and an individual early church father can be a mixed bag as well.

01:17:38

OK well what I was referring to more specifically is because of the issue of Proverbs 822 because I do know and I don't know if I remember off the top of my head

01:17:47

I think the New American Standard Bible not the one before you

01:17:53

I haven't read the one you have but translates Proverbs 822 as produced

01:17:58

I believe possessed possessed yes the Lord possessed me at the beginning of his way before his works of old so so why is it that we have certain translations being produced are we looking at subordination as translators or something not necessarily you may be referring to the

01:18:17

NIV that says the Lord brought me forth as the first of his works there is a footnote that says or the

01:18:24

Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work or the Lord brought me forth the beginning of his work etc etc it doesn't necessarily mean that the individuals are subordination is because they may not believe that this is even slightly relevant to the issue of the deity of Christ or the eternality of Christ and I would agree with them at that do you believe that in Proverbs 822 it is speaking of Christ I think that you can do the best that you can you can say is that the

01:18:50

New Testament identifies Christ as with the term wisdom the idea however that you go to an old

01:18:57

Testament wisdom book to come up with the ontological teaching about the eternality of Christ rather than going to the plain didactic teaching of Paul in Colossians or John and John one demonstrates pure is a

01:19:14

Jesus it is it is a demonstrates a person who doesn't actually want to say

01:19:19

OK let's go to where the scriptures plainly reveal something instead I want to go someplace where I can just try to make a case and that kind of interpretation can be used to prove anything there is plain teaching inscription the subject you don't overthrow the plain teaching in behalf of something like this you just don't do that I mean it's possible but we can't really build the doctrine on it you can't build any doctrine on any if the

01:19:46

New Testament writers do not make the direct and plain connection by quoting this passage and saying that Christ is being spoken of here then now you can say well we can see echoes of this maybe there is a there's an allusion to this something along those lines but to read into that and say well then we we need to look at at cannot and we need to we need to come up with a meaning for cannot that means to create to bring into existence rather than possess all the rest this type of stuff given that the scriptures are clear on the eternal nature of Christ and Colossians one and John one in Hebrews one why do all that doesn't make any sense all right

01:20:24

OK all right. Thanks Johnny Hey you all enjoy the darkness out there. God bless you.

01:20:30

All right. Those of you listening in California I'm not mocking you. Well actually

01:20:35

I am. OK. Let's talk with Clayton down in Clayton's down Nolens. Is that how you say it

01:20:41

Nolens. Yeah Nolens on New Orleans. Just sort of run it all together it's not it's not two words is it's

01:20:49

Nolens. No it's Nolens. Where you at. Right. Right down here.

01:20:54

That's right. There's that and the other. But anyway you kind of touched a little bit on the question

01:21:00

I had it seems when I've looked at all these pseudo Christian faiths that all they do is take the

01:21:10

Bible or what they believe and tell us no this is what scripture really says in other words let me tell you what it says and do you really think that someone needs to be a well studied theologian or a special student of scripture in order to see obvious misrepresentations like we see in Mormonism and calling it calling it a

01:21:29

Christian faith. Well no I think a very simple Christian faith can see the difference between Mormonism and Christianity however when the when you engage the apologetic task and engage

01:21:47

LDS people in discussions of these issues that's when you cross into a little bit of a different realm simply because the fact that there are scholarly

01:21:56

LDS people who will utilize scholarship to attempt to defend a lie and those defenses are not successful but they can look very good if you're not familiar with what the backgrounds are the language they're using things like that there excuse me there is absolutely nothing that man has ever thought up no matter how wacky or strange it might be that man cannot also find a way of defending and so you can have extremely intelligent well read individuals people that you would you'd trust your taxes to or you'd trust your surgery to who can be just extremely smart on an intellectual level who believe the most incredible things on a spiritual level so keeping that in mind then when you engage the

01:22:50

Book of Mormon be aware of the fact there's a group out there called the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies and they crank out big thick books that talk about all sorts of things that be perfectly honest with you have nothing to do with the issue at hand but they look like their defenses of the

01:23:08

Book of Mormon and they'll talk to you about alleged parallelisms that they've discovered in the language the

01:23:14

Book of Mormon to the Hebrew language and and have you ever heard about the this thing and that thing that's been discovered archaeologically and all the rest of stuff and they can make it sound really good it doesn't have anything really to do with it but they can make it sound really good make it look really good and for a person who wants to continue to believe they'll they can find a reason to do so right

01:23:36

I remember in college it was that way when I ran into I was raised

01:23:43

Roman Catholic in the time I was in college I wasn't any particular faith I was pretty much agnostic but if you had someone with letters behind their name and they began to use dates numbers and quote things then you know you thought wow this guy knows everything and you would easily follow it never never once thinking to go check it out right you know and then you would easily and so I became full blown atheist simply from attending philosophy classes where they ripped

01:24:10

Christianity to shreds with intellectualism behind it and just kept saying all these different things and I remember a girl in class one day being laughed at because she believed no in the ark and you know you could have filed any other thing you wanted but don't even claim to be a biblical

01:24:24

Christian that was just silly you know right right and they attacked it with all the P .H .D. and whatnot so that makes a lot of sense well it's it's very sadly you're you're describing our society to to a

01:24:34

T. and just because there are letters after a person's name does not mean that they are freed from the effects of sin upon the mind of man and there's many a person who utilizes their quote unquote scholarship so as to express their rebellion against God that is the society we live in and Christians need to de mythologize scholarship they need to recognize that scholarship can be used for good or for evil and that fundamentally the mind of man is meant to reflect the thinking of God the beginning of the fear of the

01:25:12

Lord is the beginning of wisdom without that fear the Lord there is no wisdom no matter how many degrees you have behind your name and Christians fall for that all the time there are many

01:25:22

Christians that are afraid to express their faith in our society because they think that you have to have those degrees behind your name before you can say anything meaningful and it just isn't true.

01:25:31

So we need to we need to keep that in mind so so no you don't have to be a scholar to deal with the

01:25:36

Book of Mormon but you do if you're going to be engaging the apologetic task of dealing with the

01:25:42

Book of Mormon and responding to it say in the Internet and in chat rooms and stuff be aware of the fact that there is quote unquote scholarship that will be used in defending it well that scholarship is sound is another issue but there will be that that is that is thrown at you and you need to know what your resources are to respond to it.

01:25:59

So basically we need to be be aware of the unregenerate many degrees. That's right.

01:26:05

That's a good way. OK. Thanks for calling. All right. God bless. All right. Well you know we we had someone who who promised to call in because I fulfilled my side of the bargain but they didn't fulfill theirs and I'm going to try to look past that I'm going to try to not let it bother me.

01:26:28

But you know it is it is hard to to have people tell you they're going to do something and then they don't do it but I would like to say to Daniel and to Johnny and the

01:26:36

Clayton thank you very much for for calling in today for having excellent questions. I don't know what next week is going to look like but I would hope that no matter what we end up having if we have anything at all

01:26:47

I suppose is it possible. Oh ye of great great power on the other side of the wall.

01:26:55

Is it possible there won't be be anything at all because it's going to be there is it is not it is not possible there will be something.

01:27:02

Oh that's never mind. You can just simply upload it earlier can't you. Never mind. There will be something here and it will be fascinating.

01:27:09

It'll be well worth your time to call not to call. Don't call. Do not do not call next week.

01:27:15

Thank you. Thank you do not call next week. But it'll be well worth your time to listen to the program next week. And when you listen next week please keep in mind the fact that while you're listening to this program the folks who are normally here bring it to you will be standing on the streets of Salt Lake City passing out tracks and praying to have the opportunity of sharing the gospel with LDS people so will you pray for us and will you remember that doing this kind of outreach it isn't free.

01:27:45

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01:27:52

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01:28:03

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01:28:18

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