How Do I Effortlessly Submit to An Imperfect Husband? | An Interview with Hannah Maz

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Reading 1 Peter 3 on Wives and Husbands

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we're joined by Hannah Maz as we answer the age-old question, how do I effortlessly submit to my imperfect husband?

Now Tim, as we get into this episode, what have you got to read for us?

Yeah, all right. Well, I wanted to read 1 Peter 3, 1 -7, and that will get us started. So 1 Peter 3, 1. Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

Do not let your adorning be external, the braiding of hair or putting on a gold jewelry or clothing you wear, but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord, and you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything that's frightening.

Now Hannah, we wanted to have you on because you seem like an example of someone, particularly that you can find on Twitter, who is regularly tweeting on the subject of the patriarchy in general, which is somewhat odd.

Most people are pretty embarrassed or ashamed or humiliated at this word, but then your Twitter handle is PatriarchyHannah, so we thought, based on that fact alone, that we would have you as a guest and that you could set us straight about why you're doing this in the type of world that is dead set on trying to smash the patriarchy.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Well, I didn't start off on Twitter intending to just talk about patriarchy all the time, and I do like to always clarify that we're talking about biblical patriarchy, which is not the same as whatever is going on in the world, but I think it's important, and I think following God's commands to have biblically set up homes is something that's really going to make a huge difference in the state of our country, in the state of the church.

It's kind of something that we've lost sight of, and a lot of women struggle with the idea that they know that they are supposed to submit to their husband, but they don't know how to do that, and they don't know what that looks like.

So part of what you're doing on Twitter is trying to help let them know that it's not this deathly terrifying concept, that it's actually kind of a normal thing that they should be embracing?

Yeah, it's just normal. It's not terrible. It's actually awesome.

So why patriarchy, and why not complementarians? So you're intentionally choosing this word patriarchy instead of maybe the more milder term complementarian, which most of your big-name evangelical people are going to try to prefer complementarian over patriarchy.

So why your specific choice of the word patriarchy, and what do you think about the complementarian movement in general?

So complementarianism basically was kind of developed in the 80s, I think, by John Piper, and he wrote a book and kind of purposefully avoided the hierarchical language, and it was just kind of to appease feminism in the church in a lot of ways.

And I believe in being bold, so let's not beat around the bush. We're not talking about male authority, but then they can't really use the authority, so they're kind of neutered. This is patriarchy. He rules the house.

It's still awesome.

So you're wanting to lean into that word, and you basically consider complementarianism to be kind of a weakened, neutered, effeminate kind of form of patriarchy? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, it's like egalitarian light, pretty much.

So what I'm curious about is, though, how did you come to those kind of convictions? So what got you to the place where you like is there some sort of story behind this or is this just something that seemed obvious to you from the start?

Or is this related to some kind of church circles you're running in? How did you get to a place where you've embraced this word that must not be named? Many people, when they hear this word, they basically assume that you hate women.

They do.

Why do you hate women, and then why are you using this word?

Well, I don't know how long you want this podcast to go, but I can list a lot of reasons why I hate women. No, just kidding. Love women. But I mean I got here because my husband told me this is where we were going to be.

But I'm not associated with anything. I just realized that when I was doing normal Twitter posts about my husband leaving our home in a way that seemed extremely normal to me, the replies I would get were just like out of control.

And so I was like, you know what? I'm just going to tweet about it more. And now I just tweet about like our normal, everyday, very boring life. And I don't know. It seems like amazing to a lot of people.

It's fascinating to me personally.

That's pretty funny, your response after getting pushback from people. I'm curious to hear what this pushback was, but I want to make this comment first. It seems like your response when people were basically coming at you and I assume telling you that you were wrong for the way that you were living your life, your response was to say, well, okay, I guess I'll just talk about it more then.

It seems like a lot of people, what they do is you read the Bible and then you say, okay, I'm going to follow what the Bible says. Obviously Tim read the passage just a few minutes ago that clearly says, wives submit to your husbands.

I mean it's not like there's no words minced in any of that. It's pretty clear what the command is. But then a lot of times it seems like people, especially some evangelical leaders, when they get pushback on these kinds of things, they try to back off of it.

But then you decided to just talk about it more. I find that pretty interesting. What's the thought process behind wanting to talk about it more? And then also I would love to hear just some anecdotal, what were people saying to begin with?

I don't know. I guess I'm just a rebel. I was like, I'm just going to patriarch harder. I just found it fascinating and I just was like, okay, I guess I'll just talk about it more. Maybe people will understand that I saw my husband bashing me over the head with anything.

It's just literally just normal. But I get a lot of messages about how I'm abused, how I promote abuse. A lot of the initial pushback was like, this is not normal. This is what we call abusive relationships.

You've been brainwashed. You have Stockholm syndrome and all of these things. And it was like, yeah, I just don't think that that's true. But maybe I do have Stockholm syndrome. We'll see.

She's confessing. Maybe we could help her figure it out. It is funny because this is one of those topics that I've noticed, particularly in church circles, where my impulse has always been just to talk about gender roles in a fairly straightforward way.

To do so without apology, just to talk about husbands have a responsibility to lead their wife. Wives have a responsibility to submit to their husbands. One of the things I've noticed is that almost every single sermon that I've ever heard on this topic in general has always been the kind of sermon where there's very, very few exceptions to this.

But almost every single one, you have the nervous pastor who's talking about this topic, who is basically just spending most of his time apologizing for what he's about to say and giving all these qualifications.

And I know this is going to be hard. I know that this has potential for misunderstanding. And we don't want to get carried away with this and that kind of thing. And so in the vast majority of sermons I've actually listened to, most of the pastors, they're trained to talk about patriarchy, complementarianism, male-female roles, whatever word they're using.

They're trained to talk about it in such a way that it's scary. It's dangerous, right? So it's scary. It's dangerous. They spend most of their time apologizing about it. And personally, I've never respected those kind of guys.

The moment they start doing that, that's like a cue to me to say that, man, their home probably is pretty unhealthy, actually. Because you can't embrace something that you're just deathly afraid of. If you're going to treat this as if it's just a plague or something like that, then don't expect me to think that you're actually living it out and you're actually living it out with a good attitude and you actually know what it's talking about.

Because that's just not the way you talk about good things in general. You don't talk about good things as if they're just these scary, dangerous, be careful, be afraid kind of dialogues. But then with me, I've been in denominational meetings with different denominational leaders.

And if I just talk about authority and submission in a very straightforward way, they just look at me as if I'm just some monstrous dictator or something like that, or if I'm just some kind of tyrant who's just probably ruling my wife with an iron fist or something.

And maybe I don't even let her wear shoes or something like that when she cooks or something. But that's essentially their perspective out of it. But then it's interesting to see that on your end, you seem to whatever your life history has got you to where you're at, you've gotten to a point where you've just fully stepped into talking about this topic in a very straightforward way.

And I mean, I even see you regularly posting pictures of yourself making your husband a sandwich. And so it seems like you've stepped into the woman make me a sandwich joke pretty fully there. So do you have any thoughts about that?

Why do you post pictures of the sandwiches you make for your husband?

Yeah, the sandwiches are it's just the running joke to make me a sandwich. We need to get women back in the kitchen, back into the sandwich making. That is pivotal to turning this country around. So it's like women, you too could be making sandwiches like this.

I don't know if I've ever quite heard it put that way, but I think that's a beautiful way to describe it. If we want to fix this country, it doesn't come down to who we elect into office. It doesn't come down to what policy that we push through our government.

It comes down to who is making the sandwiches. That's beautiful. I really appreciate that.

And I would like to point out that it's not just the egalitarians that get upset with me. I think I get more I probably get more DMs about how my relationship is not healthy from people that identify as complementarian.

Yeah, so can you give some examples of that? Like give some if you have any off the top of your head, like of things that seem like perfectly normal to you but then that trigger complementarians. And so I mean I know that most complementarians are basically just closet egalitarians.

But then maybe do you have any examples that you could give for the sake of us having some entertainment?

Yeah, well, I made a post one time about how my husband would not let he did not want me to go on like a girl's trip. And that he was fine with me going, but he was we had less children then, and he was going to rent a condo in the same building because he didn't think it was a good idea for all of us to just be running around Florida.

So he was like, I'll just stay in the same building, and I'll just be there. And my friends that were going, they freaked out, and so I just ended up not going. And I got a bunch of DMs about that, that it was like, he has to let you go.

He shouldn't say no. And it's like, how does this work? Like does your husband just never say no to you? You just do whatever, and he makes it work? That doesn't seem like the way that a healthy household works.

But that was one that got like a ton I got a ton of messages about that in particular. But any time I post anything about him saying no to me or doing something that I may not like 100 love, that's you know, the messages are going to come pouring in that he's just terribly mistreating me.

That we should totally be in alignment all the time before he makes a move. But it seems like the message is that he should align with me and not the other way around. And I don't understand how you reconcile that biblically, but that's what they tell me.

It seems like in the minds of many people, submission is kind of this idea that particularly complementarians. And so like in the complementarian world, submission seems to be this hypothetical idea that functionally should almost never happen.

So it seems to be this idea where the husband technically has some sort of tie-breaking authority. Like he has some kind of tie-breaking authority that functionally he should probably never use. And so if he's going to live with his wife in an understanding way, essentially what he needs to do is he needs to figure out what she wants to do.

And his responsibility kind of as a servant leader is to figure out what his wife wants to do in any given situation and then do that. And then maybe in some rare situation, like there might be some rare scenario where they're just they don't agree and then he's going to have some tie-breaking vote.

But then he probably should that probably should never happen. And so in the minds of many people, it seems like that's their view of authority to where functionally if a husband is loving his wife like Christ loves the church, what woman wouldn't as they say, what woman wouldn't want to follow that kind of guy?

And functionally he should never be asking her to do anything that she's remotely troubled with. But it seems like that's your experience too based on what you're saying. But do you have any more examples of that?

I've gotten messages about him he approves my clothes. And I'm not a guy. I don't know what dudes look at. It's not really that serious. But that's another one. I've spoken about how I don't think women should wear two-piece bathing suits in public.

And I'll get messages about that. And he's super controlling. And that's terrible because I guess I should be allowed to just run around with all of my body parts out that I want out. And I mean it's pretty much just a lot of that.

It's a lot of

Isn't that weird though? Isn't that weird? Like that one? Because most women dress men.

I feel like it's pretty weird. Wait, what's weird? That my husband approves my clothes?

No, it's weird to think that on the other end, most women wouldn't bat an eye to tell their husband that they're not liking something that he wears, right?

I would think so, yeah.

I mean most of the women I know, when they've gotten married to people like I know, essentially all of a sudden their wardrobe just radically changes. Like the guy goes from dressing like a slob to all of a sudden he's dressing a lot different.

And I know it's because the lady is exercising some kind of input in the very clothes that he's wearing at this point.

Right.

But then when you reverse the roles, it's like if a guy were to say, hey, you're showing off too much there. It's like, oh man, like handmaiden's tale. Like what's going on here?

Right.

And so isn't it kind of weird double standard there?

Get the burqa. That's it. Don't tell your wife what she can't wear or you might as well put her in a burqa. It is strange and it's a lot of, it's all about, I feel like it's just all about appeasing the woman.

It's fine for her to, you know, tell you that that sweater is ugly and that you should throw it away. But don't tell her that she can't wear a string bikini. You know, if you have to make a decision that she doesn't like, you should be really sad about it and sorry that it has to happen and find another way to appease her.

All of this like compromise everywhere, which compromises, of course, important within a marriage. But it's just it doesn't make any sense. And it's all very woman centric. And I don't understand it.

Well, you know, personally, I think it makes perfect sense. Biblically, you know, if you go back and you look at the fall right after creation with Adam and Eve, you know, God, God tells Adam that, you know, Eve is basically going to try and and rule over him.

Right. And that was how it was going to be as a, you know, people, people like to always say that, you know, a wife having to submit to her husband is a consequence of the fall. Right. But, you know, if you read Genesis, if you read the first few chapters of Genesis, it actually seems like the consequence of the fall is that the wife will try to rule over the husband instead.

You know, so I think so in terms of the reaction that you're getting, I think it makes perfect sense that people are, you know, messaging you. And essentially, it sounds like trying to, you know, trying to smuggle you out of that out of that relationship through the, you know, the patriarchal underground railroad to get to get you to safety because you've obviously been brainwashed by your husband.

And so I think it makes perfect sense why they're bringing up those objections and and claiming that, you know, obviously your your relationship is is completely and totally abusive and terrible in every way.

So I guess, you know, I would just want to ask you, you know, is that true? Is your is your relationship, you know, with with your husband as like as a relationship that's trying to pursue, you know, the patriarchal biblical view?

Do you feel like your relationship is a terrible, miserable mess that you desperately wish you could escape?

What does your husband allow you to say?

Yeah, my husband says no. I don't feel that way.

Blink twice if you if you think that you need escape.

No, I mean, I don't know how anyone who professes to be a Christian can say that God's way is abusive. And I, I totally agree with you. And people take this kind of Namby Pamby approach to discussing gender roles as if they're apologizing.

This is God's word. This is what God said. And it doesn't have to the ins and outs don't have to look exactly like my relationship. But the overall, you know, vibe, I hate to use that word, but that's what it is.

That's what God said it's supposed to be. And if you're if both sides are doing their part in that, right, your relationship is going to be happy. It's going to be great. And it's not abusive.

Humor, Fear, and the Female Aversion to Joking About Submission

When I think it's interesting, you know, listening to your tweets and are reading your tweets and listening to you. You talk about the subject in general is it seems like you have some kind of sense of humor about it in general.

So it's something that you like you joke about. So, you know, you lean into the woman, make me a sandwich joke by posting your pictures of sandwiches that you've made for your husband online and things like that.

But it seems like you have a you have a sense of humor about this topic. And, you know, it's one of those topics that, you know, I've I've noticed that most ladies are, you know, just speaking frankly, they're wound up pretty tight about it.

So they're wound up pretty tight about this topic. And it's the last thing that they would ever think to joke about. Because it's this thing that is supposed to be treated with like this, like, like this fear.

So so like gender roles or something that primarily like the pastors feed into this. And, you know, people's attitudes in general, like women's attitudes in general seem to be primarily that this is a topic that is supposed to be dominated by fear.

So it's not something you're supposed to laugh about. And like joking about it is fundamentally just absolutely inappropriate. You shouldn't be doing that. And, you know, as I've taught on this subject in general, like in, you know, church settings, the standard kind of comment that I'll get from, you know, ladies in general is that, hey, we got to be really careful when we talk about these things, because like these things can be abused and, you know, all that.

And it's just like fear, fear, fear. And, you know, I one of the things I notice is that like in relationships, I do a lot of counseling. Like if a lady can't joke about this topic, I like at all. Like if there's no humor related to it at all, if it's just this like there's there's no laughter, there's no whatever.

I just I've kind of trained myself to kind of assume that it must be something that she really struggles with. Whereas when I see ladies that joke about it, my operating assumption is that they're they're able to joke about it because they've made their peace with this topic, like at a pretty fundamental level.

And it's something they view as good. And and they're not at war with the concept. But then, you know, you know, as a as the representative woman in the podcast right now, would you say that that that assumption that I'm making, you know, bears itself out in reality with the women, you know, like, do you assume with women who are able to laugh and joke about the topic in general?

Are they the ones that have like an easier time in it than the ones that are, you know, just no humor whatsoever related to this topic at all?

I would say that you are pretty spot on. You know, classic patriarchal move there. Spot on. But yeah, though, my little, you know, biblical wife corner of Twitter, we all like to kind of like joke about it.

There are a lot of women that are really uptight about it. They always want to asterisk everything with like, okay, but if this and what that is, like, okay, that's not what we're doing here. We're talking about normal, healthy relationships.

And I'm not ashamed of living the way that God says that I should live, which is in submission to my husband. And I'm not going to pretend like I'm ashamed of it. And if you're not ashamed of something, then why can't you joke about it?

So this is a conviction that you've developed, like a conviction that I'm not going to be ashamed about this. And I'm, you know, if I'm not going to be ashamed about it, then that's going to affect even the way I'm talking about it.

You put some thought into what that means, basically. Is that what you're saying?

I didn't I guess it just to kind of like an intuitive. Yeah. Like, is it just an intuitive? I love this. So why wouldn't I, I just like to laugh and I think that things are funny. And so, and this is how I live and I'm not ashamed of it.

I really never intended to be the avatar face of biblical patriarchy on Twitter. But here I am. Because we don't talk about it in just like a normal way. It's always, you know, like you said, talking about, you know, this can be abused and that can be abused.

And what if your husband, you know, does something that you don't like or is harsh with you one day or something? And it's like, my goodness, like, you guys, you know, just live normal lives with normal, normal stuff happening.

It doesn't always have to be this like big drama.

God's Commands, Shared Vision, and the Reality of Submission

Well, that seems like the primary posture that most people seem to have about this topic in general is that they're looking for ways out, like they're looking for ways to wiggle out of just the plain, obvious sense of what they're talking about.

So it always leads with like the exceptions. And if you just, you know, you try to present some kind of positive vision of what this looks like, then everyone kind of loses their mind. But, I mean, is that essentially what you're saying is that most of your experience is that people are just trying to find a way out of it?

Yeah. And isn't that the way that it is with everything, though, when it comes to God's commands? Like where there's always a lot of like, did God really say, or did he really mean this? Or in this situation?

Or would he really want you to submit to your husband when he's, you know, telling you that you're going to move across the country when all your family is here? Or, you know, these situations like, yes, that is what he would want you to do.

And that's what he's told you to do. And all of the exceptions, you know, or the, you know, the times when it's not good, like if a husband is abusive, or something like that, I just don't, I cannot believe that that's the norm.

Right.

In the marriages that I know of, that operate similarly to mine, those husbands are like the best husbands. Women would kill to have a woman, a husband like mine. And so I have to believe that those things go hand in hand, though, he is fully able to, to love me as Christ loves the church, to, to work with me and live in, in understanding with me as the weaker vessel, because I have accepted that that's who I am.

He doesn't have to tiptoe around that fact. He can just be like, okay, she's being emotional, weaker vessel, let me deal with this and then move on. He doesn't get mad, you know, and so I don't know, I just think you have to accept that that's who you are.

Even conservative women, they want to say, well, I'm weaker physically, but not in any other way. Well, that's not what it says. And that's also not true. So I think a lot of it is just, it's pride. It's a pride issue.

The world definitely is telling women that they're, you know, strong and powerful and courageous and, you know, basically a better man, you know, in every way.

Yeah, be a boss, babe.

Yeah. So, I mean, that's essentially what, you know, society is intent upon portraying it every single level. And so it's almost like some duty that a woman has to prove that she absolutely needs her husband for nothing, right?

So like the competent woman, like the good wife is the wife who could basically do without you and would be perfectly fine if you were dead and doesn't need you in any way at all. But that, I mean, that's essentially what they're telling women.

Yeah, I get that comment a lot whenever I post about how I don't do home repairs. There's always at least two or three women who are like, I do the home repairs of my home. My husband wouldn't know where to find the toolbox.

And it's like, that's cool. But you still should need your husband and you actually do. So, yeah, that is like a very popular attitude. And it's very anti-woman. And, you know, and from my point of view, women are awesome.

What do you mean? You know, we definitely have a lot of positive traits that men have, too, but maybe less so. Women are courageous. We give birth. You know, that's very physical. I've personally never done it, but it's very physically difficult thing to do.

So women are tough and courageous, but in a very different way than men are. And so when you tell women that they need to act like defective men to be successful in the world, you are denying the beauty and awesomeness of what women are.

Effortful Submission, Leadership, and the Husband's Authority

Fair enough. Well, so Hannah, our main question for you today, and we've kind of talked about a lot of things related to this topic in general, but our main question for you today is how do I effortlessly submit to an imperfect husband?

And so we're looking to you to give us an answer to this. And we're emphasizing the word effortlessly there. So the ladies want to know, you know, how do you effortlessly submit to an imperfect husband?

What do you got?

Well, if you want to do it effortlessly, I would say look into a lobotomy, perhaps. That would make it easier to do it effortlessly.

I can say I wasn't expecting that answer.

I mean, it takes.

Hey, human 2 .0 is on the, is on the horizon. Maybe they'll, they'll develop like step for wife friendships.

Maybe Neuralink will help with that. Maybe so. Yeah, no, it's probably not going to be effortless. You're probably going to have to put some work and prayer and a little introspection in it. And sometimes it's hard not to say that one thing that you just really feel like you need to say.

And instead just say, yes, sir. Yes, my Lord, little L, you know, you know, but the effortless part. I don't know. I could, we can look for some psychiatrists. Maybe they can give you some, some advice.

So you don't, you're not, you can't tell the women how to do it effortlessly, but how do you do it with effort?

You pray and you, you practice self-control and you also recognize that your husband, why did you marry him? If you can't trust him, you know, God, God has given him this authority in your home and, and you just have to recognize that that's what it is.

And, you know, read your Bible.

What do you think most women are looking for in a husband? Because, I mean, it doesn't seem to me to be obvious that most women today are looking for a leader, like, like they're looking for something else.

And so they're not looking for someone that they're going to like to follow. They're looking for other things. So what do you think they're looking for?

In a lot of ways, I get the impression that they're looking for a roommate, almost just someone that they, it's like two people live in a house. Cause they, they don't have the same goals. Like he has a life, she has a life and they bring the life together under the same roof.

I don't know. It's opposite sex, bestie, something like that. Yeah.

With benefits.

Yeah. I mean, it sort of seems that way.

But, but that, is that not what you were looking for? Like, was there a moment, like, were you, like, from the start, were you wanting, like, I want a husband, I want a leader, you know, I want a lowercase.

L Lord, you know, is that what you were looking for from the beginning? Or is there, you know, at some point you just transitioned into seeing that as what you needed, like what was right? Does that make sense?

Yeah. I just thought that that's what husbands were supposed to be like always. And so when my husband and I started seeing each other, it, I mean, it was obvious from the beginning that he was someone that could handle his business that would lead us properly, that he had a vision for how he wanted his life to go.

And he wanted like a help me along the ride with him. And it just never occurred to me to look for other things in a husband. So I don't know. I just, I didn't read enough complementarian books, I guess.

To be corrupted.

To be brainwashed.

Right. To be corrupted.

Well, you know, and it sounds like because you committed to trying to, you know, you basically were trying to seek out what God, you know, has said is good for a husband to be right. And it sounds like you're basically asking yourself what sort of characteristics match or enable a man to fulfill the things that God or the responsibilities that God gives to husbands.

And it seems like because you were looking for that, you know, as far as I can tell, it sounds like you found a good husband, you know, by all accounts, a good husband. But then on the flip side, for people who are who are looking for the sort of, you know, roommate bestie with with benefits kind of situation, essentially, they're setting those women are setting themselves up for failure because they're they're ultimately looking for husbands who are, you know, to put it to put it politely, in a lot of ways, they're subpar.