Does BAPTISM now save us? PT.2 w/@theparishreformed @AaronGallagherTV

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Go ahead. Any chance you can put Shane Fisher's last question? To me, this is awesome. This is actually one of the verses that Full Federalist will take out of context and I noticed he, yes, he skipped a huge verse about obedience in Romans 6 and in Romans 10.

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So I do want to kind of go down these because the Church of Christ would use this verse along with, what's the verse in is it 1st or 2nd

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Thessalonians about those who disobey the gospel? 2nd Thessalonians 1, 8 and 9. It's like you had to memorize that for 18 years or so.

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But this is why, remember my sixth definition that I gave and defined in my opening statement, it was the word obey.

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Because what I want people to understand is obedience when it means to hearken to or follow a list of commands or there's a lot of words that just say to be in allegiance with.

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This doesn't always mean your works. I just want to say to obey a command in the

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New Testament, we are commanded to believe in Jesus. And that doesn't mean do something.

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That doesn't mean do something in your works. It's so ingrained in their head. I'm just telling you Jeremiah, it's so ingrained in their head that I can't be justified by just believing in Jesus.

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No, I have to prove myself to him and that is works. That goes back to Romans 4 that now it's no longer grace.

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You earned it. It's not something you got graciously. You've earned it. You've proved yourself to me.

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Therefore now you get a reward. And so that's the sad thing. And so but once you understand what is the obedience of faith?

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Well, he's contradicting against, he's fighting against the obedience of the law versus obedience of faith. So obedience of the law is do this, do this, do this, and then you get rewarded in the end.

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Right? And so obedience of faith is I'm gonna do these things not so that I'm rewarded in the end. I'm doing it because I'm rewarded now.

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I'm doing it because I am a Christian. I'm not doing it so that I will be a Christian. And so now my obedience is preceded with faith.

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It's Hebrews 11 that it's the visible things that you see are happening is evidence that I truly have faith.

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That's my faith in God produces obedience to him. Faith produces obedience.

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Obedience does not produce saving faith. Saving faith produces obedience. So the obedience of faith is

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I'm still obeying God, but religion says you obey God so you will be saved. Christianity, the gospel says you you're obedient to God because you are saved.

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And so I do want us to stay on Shane Fisher's comment here. But when Gavin just simply quotes the verse that says, you know, to those that disobey the gospel,

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I want people to understand if you are adding your works to faith, then you are disobeying the gospel.

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That's why Galatians 1 is there. You don't add, this is the thing, when you look at Galatians, the

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Judaizers were not just believing in a wrong system of faith. They were adding the ceremony of circumcision along with the law of Moses to faith.

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They are adding works with faith, and that's the whole thing. We are justified by faith, not works of law or anything you do by your works.

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And that is where if you add, Trey, if you add works, then you are severing yourself from the gospel of grace.

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You are denying it. That's what's been, that was the Galatian heresy. Right, and so I would argue even if you're trying to add a different work than the works of law, in principle, you're trying to go back to the old covenant of works that never saved, only condemned.

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Now, I do want to briefly go back to his comment. I got 2

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Thessalonians 1 .8 right now. It says, "...on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our

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Lord Jesus." Okay, again, we've done a whole video, and thank God we had a longtime

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Church of Christ -er watch that video of us explaining what it means to obey the gospel here, given the

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Greek definitions of the words, the context of it all, and he left the Church of Christ. Thank God, praise

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God for that. Because if you go back to Romans 10, verse 16, right?

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Okay, so that's the thing. I want us to look at Romans 1 real quick, and then notice in Shane's comment, he skips over Romans 6 .17

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and Romans 10 .16 and 17, which kind of tell us what obedience in terms of our justification actually looks like.

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So Romans 1 .5 says, "...through whom we have received grace and apostleship,"

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Paul says, "...to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations."

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I want to say, he tells us in Romans 16 and 17, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, verse 17, "...for

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in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith."

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That's the obedience, right? Those who are justified by faith live out the rest of their lives in obedient commands in their works to glorify

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God, to demonstrate this to the watching world. So that's the further context of Romans 1, and then before we go to Romans 10, can we go to Romans 6 .17?

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I debated a hard right. I debated a

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Church of Christ, which I don't know if you remember, at a university on this very verse. And so, "...but

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thanks be to God that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient, not from your works, but from the heart to that standard of teaching to which you were committed."

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Now, you probably preached this all day long, Trey, when you were back in this world, but to that standard of teaching, they want to go back earlier in Romans 6, it's baptism, it's baptism.

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They'll say it's the gospel, and then you obey the gospel through through Romans 6. So the standard of teaching is the gospel, and the gospel, how do you obey the gospel?

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I mean, you got to put all these verses together. So, yeah, but thanks be to God, not thanks be to y 'all, because y 'all did it, but thanks be to God, because he did it.

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This is a spiritual baptism. We would never say thanks be to us. You're misrepresenting us. But the point is, of course, you have to say that, but you have opened up the door to say that.

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We're saying that's the implication of your system. So the reason why we're bringing this verse up, it says, obedience from the heart, heart of faith.

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That's what Paul has been laying the groundwork for. So now, if you want to tackle this one, Romans 10, 16.

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I hope Shane... Before we go there, just because, I don't know if we'll even get to Gallagher's part on Romans 6, but if I asked

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Shane, or Gavin, because I know we got like a little lag here. Just tell me, when do you die to your sins?

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When do you die to sins? I want to answer that. Tell me when you die to your sins, and then we will come back and look at something.

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But right now, you want to look at Romans 10? Be looking for when do we die to our sins?

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I want to also add, Carl's already trying to change the subject to something else, because I think he's running out of sauce.

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Mm -hmm. So here, so obey the gospel, but they have not all obeyed the gospel, right?

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We say that obey the gospel is to believe, is to hearken to, to give ear to, is to be in awe and admiration of.

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Oh great, but you're doing your works. That's not obeying. That's what obey means in its context in the

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Greek here. So not all have obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, so look what

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Paul uses to back up his statement, obey the gospel. Look what he refers back to.

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He says, remember what Isaiah says? Who has believed what he has heard from us?

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Because that obey there, hypekouo, means to believe, to hearken to, to trust, to be in awe of, to be in awe like, oh, you know, because you believe it.

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That's what obeying is. And so this is what Paul even equates. Obeying the gospel, he equates it to who has believed what he's heard.

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Not all have obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, who's believed what he's heard from us? Faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ.

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So, yep, when do you die to your sins? Carl? Watery graves of baptism.

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I'm just waiting. I doubt they'll answer, but until they answer, we'll save that one for later.

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Maybe if you and Aaron get to debate. I think Carl's getting a little bit heated in there.

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He's telling me to stop. Good grief. Hey, come on. Hey Carl, let's debate it, my guy. I don't mind.

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So this is something else, Trey. I think if people go back and watch the debate after they listen to a lot of what we've talked about, this is why.

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There's about six terms you really need to define with the Church of Christ. You got to define faith.

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You got to define works. You got to define justification and sanctification. You got to define the word baptizo for baptism, and you have to define the word obedience or obey.

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Mm -hmm. So, there's what Gavin says here. It went away.

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Okay, yeah. Yeah, so can I make a comment first before you do on this? Because there's assumption, there's assumptions in this statement that I want to tell people.

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Obeying the gospel according to the Church of Christ is from the heart. Let me back up. Well, what does obey mean?

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What does the Church of Christ mean, and what does from the heart mean? So, internal to external, we believe you got to repent, confess, and be baptized.

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But in what way? Because, and I encourage people to go listen to the debate with me and Gavin. He tried to take me down this trail, and I tried to say, yeah, but it don't mean that, according to what you're trying to say, because you're trying to work in confession as literally the words that you say and come out of your mouth.

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Well, good luck if you think that that's what Romans 10 9 means when someone who is mute, because they're not gonna be able to do that.

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You're gonna have to pull out a synecdoche, or say that it's normative, and all these things. But confess means a heart of faith.

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Repentance is a heart disposition, and believe is faith. And so, when people say this and say, oh, that seems harmless, that's what all

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Christians believe. What they mean is you must do these things in order to be justified.

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That's the thing, like Gavin right here, is not defining. And so, I really want to encourage people.

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You have to define your terms. You have to look at these proof texts in their context.

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Right. Let's go to another. Let's just jump around here. Thank you,

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Ruby. The gospel is so simple. Look to King Jesus in faith apart from works.

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Beautiful. Do you want to do believe as a work? Oh, in John 6.

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Yes. I got a yes. I'm going somewhere. So, okay.

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So, let's shift gears to James chapter 2. James 2 21, referencing

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Abraham. I want to see how much continuity our justification, which sounds like the works of God being obedient to command.

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It sounds like I'm gonna get another yes here. I'm hoping. Was not Abraham our father justified by works?

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And so, I think, tell me if I'm understanding your interpretation. This would be the works of God because he was being obedient to God's command when he offered up his son,

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Isaac. Yes, it is obedience to the command to offer up his son,

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Isaac. That's the works in that particular passage. So, we're justified like Abraham because we have an obedient faith.

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When God gives a command, we respond in obedience. In your position, it's not a human work. It's the it's the working of God or the works of God, right?

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Yeah, you can give that definition. So, once again, I think it's gonna be a moot point because what

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Jeremiah is saying is, hey, Colossians 2 11 12 says, now, when you look at Colossians 11 and chapter 2 11 and 12, notice what

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Colossians says. It's your faith in the working of God. So, when you're baptized, God is the one that is working in baptism to cut away your sins.

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Now, I think it's a little bit different from John 6 28 29. What is the work of God that you believe?

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Because that is the work of God or from God. And what is that that you believe? So, that's a work you do, believing that is necessary for salvation.

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So, this idea, well, no works are included. Well, that's not what Jesus said. So, you can you can say all you want. Well, if you think works are included, you're a heretic and it's works.

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It's man's salvation. You can say all those accusatory things, but it's like the quote that was attributed to maybe

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Aristotle, but there's no evidence he said it. It says, when the argument is lost, slander becomes the tool of the enemy.

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You're slandering now. I guess, you know, what does he consider a slander when all those people called him and Mike, I saw from the old

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Church of Christ I came to and was dogging me and telling me all these things about me. Well, what was that slander?

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Was that gossip? He's not understanding that we're talking about the

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Church of Christ theology is heretical. It's pharisaical. It's trying to work to God. Now, to use what he said earlier, if the shoe fits, we're trying to tell you to repent.

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It's not meant to be slanderous and accusatory, but we are making a biblical case that there is a right gospel.

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Do you see this tattoo I got? Galatians 2, 5? Yep, quote it for us. Galatians 4, my other one, where Paul says right after that, am

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I now your enemy because I tell you the truth? I mean, that's what we're trying to do. It's like, man, don't be mad.

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I'm trying to tell you, you believe in a false gospel. You believe that your faith plus works equals salvation.

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Faith plus a ceremony. That's what the whole book of Galatians is about. Faith plus a ceremony. You're not gonna make it, bro, and you're not good enough.

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Like, stop. Just look to Christ in faith. But go ahead with John 6, 28 and 29.

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Because you've never heard of this. I've never heard of this. Have you? Yeah, well, you know, they think this is a slam dunk, and this is what he does.

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And I will say Gallagher does this well. He has his axiomatic verses that are untouchable.

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Acts 22, 16, right? You either believe what Amos says there, or he's wrong.

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And we're like, well, that's a false dichotomy, right? How about we just examine context like we do to Acts 2, 38.

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Remember? Because he says, oh, if you can explain that away, you can't explain away what Amos said to Paul.

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It's like, or we just keep examining context, you know what I mean? And so John 6, I just want to reread this verse again.

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Because this is one of those axiomatic verses in Gallagher's mind that the context, let's ignore all of that.

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Let's just look at what Jesus is talking about with these gungus -mooing crowd that he just performed miracles with, right?

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And so I do want us to look at 28 and 29 together. But this has to, this is the longest chapter in John, John 6.

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And so there's so much rich context that comes before and after it. So, if we start back in even 27,

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Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the

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Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.

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I do believe this is the first time that the Father is referred to as God. So awesome verse there. And Jesus does say that you must labor for the food that does not perish.

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And so what is Jesus trying to get them to do? Think transcendently heavenly and not earthly.

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Okay, and so verse 28, They said to him, what must we do to be doing the works of God?

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Trey, guess what? They are thinking earthly and not heavenly. They are literally saying what works must we do to be made right with God, to find favor, with him.

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And the idea is you can't by your own merit, by your own effort, and your own accomplishments.

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That's what they're thinking. That's what Nicodemus, Trey, just a few chapters earlier, he was confused by the same thing.

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Born again, born from above. I can't crawl into my mother's womb again. He's thinking earthly, right?

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He's probably thinking about John's baptism, earthly, right? And not understanding the spiritual truths that John was ultimately pointing to, and that Jesus was explaining to him from the old covenant that promised the new covenant to come.

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You're a ruler of the Jews, and you don't understand these things? Well, that's because Ezekiel 36 is super clear.

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And here's my point. If you think Nicodemus wasn't understanding these things, do you think these gungus moving, grumbling crowds that just wanted their tummies full, do you think they really understanding, they really understand that they must believe something that is from above?

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Do you think they understand that truth? No. So, they said to him, what must we do to be doing the works of God?

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Jesus answered to him, answered to them saying this, this is the work of God. Not that, not what you do, right?

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But there must be a belief that you believe in him whom he has sent.

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And I want to, I want to say this next point, because this is the, this is the subtle bait -and -switch that the

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Church of Christ do. Well, you must believe. That's the work of God. That's your obedience.

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So, the work of God must be code for your obedient works to a list of commands.

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That's not what Jesus is saying. He is saying you can't do anything. The work of God must put belief in you.

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That's literally what he says. This is the work of God that you believe. Now, I would for a moment say the

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Scripture is very clear that this is a gift from above that God grants. The Holy Spirit, remember,

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God says I will take out that heart of stone and I will give you a heart of flesh. So, this is the thing,

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Trey. Belief, the work of God is a miracle. How do I know that? Trey, any idea?

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What works of God happened earlier in John chapter 6? Any idea? I bet Carl, I would, I don't think

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Carl could answer this as fast as I'd need him to. I think he fed some people. Oh, man.

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Now, let's think about this. He did feed a multitude of people, more than 6 ,000.

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That's probably just the men that are represented there, right? And so, is it verse 11?

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Let's see. Jesus then took the loaves and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated.

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So, also the fish, as much as they wanted. This was a miracle.

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This was the work of God in their midst. That's why Nicodemus said, we know that you are from God based on all the signs and mighty works that you do.

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We know that you are of God. The work of God, Trey, is a miracle. So, that's the context.

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When Jesus says, this is the work of God, think what miraculous thing has to happen.

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Oh, that you believe. That's a work of God, not your participation or something that you can conjure up.

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That's what this, I keep saying Gungus moving, this is this groaning crowd that are following Jesus for the wrong reasons.

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When he says, labor for the food that doesn't perish, he means you need to believe, right?

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Because ultimately, the bread of God is Jesus. He says, I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me, not in your work, but whoever comes to me in faith, believing who he is, shall not hunger, and those who believe in me shall never thirst.

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This laboring for a food that doesn't perish, this doesn't mean by your labors and by your efforts.

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This is all in the context of saving faith. Now, I'll throw it over to you in a second, but if we look at verse 37, verse 44, and verse 65, this is in the context where Jesus says, all that the

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Father has given me will come to me, and I'll lose none of them, right? No one, in fact, can come to me unless they are drawn by the

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Father, right? And when they come to me, when God has granted that this happen, I'm gonna raise them up on the last day.

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And this is where the Church of Christ theology falls flat. Yeah, I want to give a hard verse that Aaron says we take hard verses that people don't, aren't able to understand, and we twist them.

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Jesus Christ says, truly, truly, I, Jesus, say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

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Not will have it, not might have it, not whoever believes and is baptized, not whoever believes and does this, whoever believes has eternal life.

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The question is, do you believe that? Go ahead. Okay, so Carl is saying, works of God in Colossians 2, is that earthly?

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I don't believe it is, but the Church of Christ make the works of God earthly. That's the whole point.

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Y 'all believe that the works of God. They turn the gospel back into law, is what they've done. Yes, it's the

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Galatian one here. They've taken the law, they've taken the law and the gospel, and they've taken the gospel and they've turned it back into law, something you have to do for it.

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And it's just like, what are y 'all doing? But I mean, they really can't see it. I mean, he, but Carl's probably been raising this his whole life and this is all he's ever heard.

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And it's just so, I mean, when I tell you, it's just drip, drip, drip. Everybody else is wrong. Everybody else is wrong. Everybody else is wrong. This is why so many people who leave the

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Church of Christ never come back. And they just like, they're gone, off the reservation, because it's like Mormons, right?

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When Mormons leave, they typically, a lot of them just never, they say, I won't have nothing to do with it because I know everybody else is wrong. And so I'm out, you know, and it's just so heartbreaking.

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And Carl, Carl is saying this, like it's a big point. He says, believe, not just believe, Jeremiah, believe in Him.

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What do you think we're talking about, man? That's what I mean, believe in Him. That's what the word believe means.

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We just showed you the Greek definition, to trust in someone, to put your trust, someone who's worthy of your trust in that person.

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That's what the word believes, to believe in Him, that He did all the work for you, that He accomplished it all on the cross, that you cannot add anything to it.

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And here's the deal. Carl, here's the deal. Yeah, and let me tell you why. See this right here?

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This is what I've always said, Jeremiah. Like, this is what I've always said. The easiest person for a

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Church of Christ to really get tied up in a knot is not, not this guy, not the 1689

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London Baptist Confession, not the OG Baptist, but you get a good old American Baptist, Arminian -American

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Baptist, with a Church of Christ -er. And if the

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Church of Christ person is just a little nice, just a little nice, they'll get the

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Baptist, because the good old American Baptist says, no, you have to say the sinner's prayer. And they're like, well, that's not in there.

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You see, they say that to us, and we're like, yeah, I know it's not in there. I know it's not in the

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Bible. But the good old American, Arminian Baptist, Southern Baptist, says, no, you have to ask

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Jesus in your heart. You have to confess him. You have to do this. You have to do that, right? You have to walk the aisle. You have to do something.

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You have to ask him in your heart. And then the Church of Christ person says, well, okay, I'm with you. But you also have to get baptized, too.

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And they're like, no, no, no. Then you show them all these verses, because they don't understand doctrine, theology, and stuff like that either.

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And they're just tied up in a knot. They're like, oh my goodness. And it's the same thing if you read Galatians.

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It's the same thing the Judaizers did. They said, you see Leviticus. You see Deuteronomy. You see it says the dietary laws.

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You see it says the circumcision. You see that? And they're like, oh my goodness. It does say I have to do that. Then let's do it.

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We have to do it. And so they're like, oh my gosh. Yeah, Paul knows what he's talking about a little bit, but he's really bad off, because look in Deuteronomy.

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It says you got to do this. And they're like, oh my goodness. It does say I have to do that. And so they do it. It says you got to do all the law, too, right?

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And so then they're just what in the world has happened? And so Paul comes in there and says, y 'all, no.

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And then he says, you know what? To the ones who fell from grace, you know, you think this is the way to do it?

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Cut it all off. So it would be like John, it would be like Paul saying to people today who are taking not the

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Old Testament words. It's taking Paul's words and twisting them and saying you have to be baptized to be saved now. It would be like, okay, if you want to do that, then go full varsity and drown yourself in the water.

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Like he told the people who were in circumcision, cut it all off if you're going to do it. Well, if you think baptism is going to save you, then you need to drown yourself in it.

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If you think the water and you doing that is going to be making God like, oh, wow. So anyway, go ahead.

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Do we have any future clips? Because I want to save this where he brings up Rahab with the works of law and so forth.

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I don't know if he has Rahab. I got some original sin stuff. Ergon, you twisting the scriptures.

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Is that it where you're twisting things? Dying moments. That's a good one. How do you, Romans 6, how do they obey?

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Yeah, I'll wait because there's something I want to add to Rahab and the law written on her.

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Gavin, I'm not going to answer you or Shane's questions anymore until you answer the simple one. When do you die to your sins? You keep asking questions,

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I think it's fair. I've answered, me and Jeremiah has answered quite a few of your You know, it's wild. They're not asking us new questions either.

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No, no, they're not. We've already answered some new ones. So Gavin and Shane, answer the question.

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When do you die to your sins? And we'll answer your next one. Okay. So let's go to your

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You want to do the, let's just do the, I got your twisting scripture, whatever. Ergon, he gives the definition of ergon.

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We've already hit that. Let's do the Jeremiah believes you do nothing. You want to do that? Yeah. So you wouldn't get me a definition for what works.

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I mean, it's something done. Yeah, I think that's okay. Sure. See, neither me or Mike are disagreeing with the definition of what is something that will work or a deed, something you do.

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There's no problem. The problem is Jeremiah's presupposed theology, which is that nothing you do has anything to do with salvation.

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That's reformed theology. That's Calvinism. That's not what any early Christians believe. It's not what the text of the new Testament take, uh, teaches.

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What must we do? Acts 9, 6, Paul asks Jesus. What must I do? Jesus didn't say nothing. He said, go to the city and a man is going to tell you what you must do.

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I mean, that's from Jesus himself. I'm telling you, you will never have peace with the entire new

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Testament until you get rid of reformed theology. Yeah, you know, I want to say, you know why you're never going to have peace with the whole new testament until you get rid of reformed theology is because you have no answers for it.

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And you have no peace with it and you're at war with it because you know that what you're saying, you can't, like, we're not your typical

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Baptist. That's the problem. I think that you're going to talk to a typical Baptist and it's just that, but you're talking to a reformed

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OG Baptist? Ain't happening. It's just not. And so like, yeah, you're not going to have peace. You're right.

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You won't have peace. His audience is a bunch of Church of Christ people and I promise you there is no peace when you come and talk to us about this stuff.

28:45

Go ahead. Gavin just conceded that he doesn't want to answer your question. What did he say? He just, he gave a

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Bible reference so he didn't want to explain his position. Yeah. So while he's rethinking about actually giving an answer, he's not under, so Gallagher's not understanding.

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When we say you don't have to do anything, we mean by your works, by your accomplishments. Jesus said to Telestai, it is finished.

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He doesn't want to answer the question. He wants the verse. Well, they can't.

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I mean, because they already know they're going to get caught in the watery graves of baptism and so forth. But we've already kind of touched on this is reformed theology is simply being consistent with the reality that we are justified by faith apart from works.

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And then this is what would really help the Church of Christ, understanding this, the just shall live by faith.

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And so this means the justified by faith live out their lives and their works in sanctification, to obedience, to commands.

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It's not a perfect obedience, but we're becoming more and more into the image of Christ and less and less like the world.

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That's why, and you know, we interviewed Paul Day in a lot talking about if you understand essentially just four basic words, faith, works, justification, sanctification, you,

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Church of Christ usually don't understand what those mean. It was nice talking with someone like Mike Heisel who definitely understood, yeah, yeah, yeah, we want to be specific with terms.

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And so he said, you know, to me, I appreciate that you're talking about the initial point of justification because for him justification isn't just a one -time act.

30:23

It's ongoing and it can be lost. But that's why we need to use the terms that the

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New Testament teaches. That's why, Trey, I don't like saying baptism is necessary for salvation, because what do you mean by baptism?

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And what do you mean by salvation? Because salvation is a process one of regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification, right?

30:44

And somewhere on that spectrum, works fits perfectly. It's in your just or it's in your sanctification, not your justification.

30:52

So I'm over here trying to talk with Shane. Yes, so Shane finally came out and said, and Paul Day, I put this up here, the irony of the

30:58

Church of Christ appealing to church history is just mind -boggling. It really is. And so I want to talk about this.

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Y 'all didn't do that when y 'all were in it? Even with Shane? No, no. I mean this is, well, I mean you did, but you just google, you know, church fathers baptism and you pick something up out of context, completely out of context, just like Aaron Gallagher did and does.

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You know, Aaron says he's going to write a book on early church fathers and stuff. Oh my goodness. Well, he's going to have a lot to, a lot to say.

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I mean, but it's all going to be really bad out of context. And uh, but you know, it's, that's what they do.

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But I mean, look, they take the Bible out of context. Of course, they're going to take me and you and everybody else and everything else out of context.

31:35

So I'm going to keep this up here. The irony of the Church of Christ appealing to church history is just mind -boggling. It is. Back to the question, when you've got your sins, when

31:43

Gallagher, Gallagher says Jeremiah's position that doesn't give you peace is you can't do anything.

31:50

Well notice, he's already assuming faith means faithfulness to commands and obedience.

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And that is your works. That's why you can't let them define terms.

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Remember how you appeal to second Timothy chapter two, the irreverent babble, right? We're called to rightly handle the word.

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And so if you don't define your terms, your enemies will. So that's why he who defines the terms wins the debate.

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Remember what, what Paul Day says here, the irony of the Church of Christ appealing to church history is just mind -boggling. And so now

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Shane said, you know, he died of sin, you know, Romans six. I'm like, well just finally, are you saying it's when you're baptized?

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He said yes. Yes. Then Gavin finally comes in and says I did, oh, no, he says I died to sin when I was baptized into Christ.

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Romans six, two through three. Watery graves. Let's just go there and see.

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Let's just see what church history says. See what origin says about it. What do you think, Paul Day? Romans six.

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Yeah, because if the early church said it, it must be fact, right? According to Gallagher. Here's the deal. Guess what, though?

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Just like you didn't die, your sins were not taken care of in the watery graves of baptism.

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Gavin and Shane, look slowly here. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin?

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So who's the we? What shall we say? Are we to continue in sin?

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Who's the we here? These Christians. By no means, how can we who died to sin still live in it?

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How can we who died to sin still live in it? Don't you know? All of us who are baptizing to Christ, we're baptizing to his death.

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Now, this is very important here. This is where you're going to see the Catholicism in the church of Christ. These people have already died in their sin.

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Their sins, they've already died to sin. They've already died to sin and now he's reminding them of their baptism.

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It's a picture. This is a spiritual thing. Even Aaron Gallagher says this is talking about spiritually. I can play it for you here in a minute.

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But yet he wants to make it physical. No, this is obviously a spiritual thing. We were buried therefore with him, right?

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See, you died to your sins with Christ. Christ died on a cross. Gavin mentioned it earlier in Galatians 2 that Paul was crucified with Christ, right?

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But go ahead. You had your hand raised up and then I'll finish this. Yeah, because this is talking about the unity that we have with Christ.

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I would actually piggyback off what you said. The first five chapters of Romans talk about how we are unified, immersed, identified in Christ by faith.

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You know what I mean? But verse 5 says, for if we have been united with him in a death like his, then we have certainly been united with him in a resurrection like his.

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So I do think this is good evidence to show that this is talking about how we've been immersed into Christ by faith, right?

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Now, can we show other theologians that have understood this to be the ceremony of baptism?

34:57

Well, great. Guess what baptism does? It signifies that reality. In church history, there's a term called metonymy that just says everyone understands when you hold up the picture, the thing signified, no one is confused if you were to say,

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I was saved in baptism. No one would think that, oh, their actual participation is what washed away their past sin.

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Everyone would already understand. Oh, well, of course, right? It signifies the work that God has already done.

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We're going to go back a long way to look at that. So here it is. And your baptism is a picture.

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See, you've already died of sin. See, for the one who has died has been set free from sin. So he's going up here to say right here, look, we've already died to sin.

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How can we live it any longer? Don't you know that we were look, we were baptized into his death.

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So Jesus was not in the water. Whatever water you got baptized in, he was not dead there. So you're doing what the

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Catholic church does. The Catholic church crucifies Christ every time they take the Eucharist because they say this is his body.

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This is his blood and you're taking it. It's every week they're killing him. And just like we know that Christ died once for all, once for sins, one time.

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But what the Church of Christ does is they crucify him every time somebody gets baptized because they say that's where his blood is.

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It's in that water. Like I love what Ferguson said is it's, it's, it's, they're both liquids, you know?

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The Roman Catholics have it in wine. The Church of Christ have it in water. But they were baptized into his death. We were buried therefore with him.

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Where was he buried? Not in the water where you got baptized. We were raised with him. Look at Colossians 2.

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With him. Look at Colossians 3. With him. Look at Galatians 2. You died crucified with him.

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Where was he crucified? Not in your baptism. He was not crucified with you. You were crucified with him.

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And so when you die to sin, look here, see what you got to understand is Romans 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 come before 6.

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And look here in chapter 5. Let me ask you something. This is what Mike Hysall could not answer when we were having a little zoom call when we first talked.

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It says right here. I said, look, answer me this. I said, when are we made in right relationship and reconciled to God?

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He said when we're baptized. Of course he's going to say that. But since therefore we've now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

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For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled, made in right relationship to God by the death of his son, not by baptism, while we were enemies.

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So are we enemies when we come up out of the waters of baptism? Because that's when we're made in right relationship while we're enemies.

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Are you saying that when we come up out of the water of baptism that we're still an enemy? No, you wouldn't say that.

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Because you don't understand this right here. We've been justified by faith. By faith. And we heard the good news. We were made in right relationship with God by the death of his son.

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It's the doctrine of the atonement. And so then when we heard the good news and we believed in that news, we believed it to be true, we put our faith in Christ who paid our debt, then we're justified.

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We just didn't know that we were reconciled already 2 ,000 years ago. It took the news to come to us.

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And we heard that news, which Paul says later on, it's the stench of death to some people. And so it's the beautiful fragrance of life unto life for others.

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When we believers heard the news of the good news of what Christ has done for us, we put our faith in him, we were justified.

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When we heard that Jesus Christ has already paid for our sins, if we believe in him, then we're one of his sheep. And when

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I heard that, I was like, oh my goodness, you saved a wretch like me. Thank you, God. And so I died with Christ.

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See, this is what Origen says. If you want to talk about church history, because, you know, they want to pull up church history just like everything else, scripture, out of context to try to prove their point.

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Origen used the idea of dying and rising with Christ from Romans 6, 3 through 4 to interpret the meaning of baptism, teaching through these things that if someone has first died to sin, he has necessarily been buried with Christ in baptism.

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But if the person does not die to sin beforehand, he cannot be buried with Christ. You got to first be dead before you're buried, dead to your sins, not we're all dead in our sins and our transgressions.

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Everybody's that way. What his point is saying, you have to first come to faith, true faith in Christ, dead to your sins, you're done with, because now

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I'm freed from those sins. Verse 7, for one who has died has been set free from sin. So we got to know we have to stop doing that.

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And once we understand these things, then their baptism takes place. Then we're buried with Christ, this picture, this sign and the symbol, the seal.

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So the death to sin must precede the baptism because it's to bring you into the covenant community of God.

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We can go through a lot of church history on this to show you that. Go ahead. I digress. Yeah, so, you know, one verse that usually gets skipped.

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I loved how you brought up Romans 5 about, you know, the blood of Christ, but Romans 3 talks about that God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith.

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That usually gets skipped in this conversation. And then, you know, I got some pushback from one of our last episodes.

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When we accused the Church of Christ being like Roman Catholics re -crucifying Jesus, they said, well, are you re -crucifying

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Jesus when you put your faith in Christ? I said, the Armenians are. The Armenians are.

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They're conjuring up faith, right? And then they're contacting the blood based on what they do. But in our circles, no,

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Jesus paid for the sins of all who would believe in him. That's why our faith is an instrument, not the grounding of our justification, right?

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Because Jesus already paid for our sins, those that would believe. The blood is to be received by faith.

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And then here, when Aaron breaks down Romans 6, he says very snidely this comment, and I'm going to go ahead and play it so we can listen to it.

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And we'll just do that real quick. So Gavin just admitted that your working participation is also a part of the instrumental means.

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There you go, baptismal regeneration. That gets us right back to square one of saying, yes, faith plus works is a gospel that cannot save.

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Right, here we go. And then he goes to chapter 6 and he launches right into baptism. And notice what he doesn't say about baptism.

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He doesn't say that you were saved already and then you were baptized. He literally says, hey, quit sinning.

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And then he says, do you not know, he's calling them back to when they were cleansed of their sins. Do you not know as many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death?

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We were buried with him through baptism into death. That just as Christ was raised from the dead by glory of the father, we should walk in newness of life.

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You're buried. You rise to walk in newness of life. You don't have new life before you're baptized.

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You're dead in your sins and trespasses. You're baptized. You contact the blood of Christ spiritually. You rise to walk in newness of life.

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And this is obviously not talking about Holy Spirit baptism, because if it was, number one, are you baptized into the

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Holy Spirit and you come up out of it? No, you're baptized into water. And you come up out of it.

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Look at verse 17. Verse 16. Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey?

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You are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death or obedience leading to righteousness.

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Okay, then he says verse 17. But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, what happened?

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You were slaves of sin, but what happened? Yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, tupon, pattern of doctrine you were delivered.

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What's the context? Baptism. You obeyed baptism. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

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If this is spirit baptism, tell me how you obey it. I'll wait. Okay, let me tell you.

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Are you still waiting? Watch this. Let's read the text. How do you obey it? How do you obey it? Here we go.

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Just read it slowly. Verse 17. But thanks be to God that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart.

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Not from the flesh of works, not from doing anything, but obedient from the heart.

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You are obedient to the heart. You believed it. You trusted. Go ahead.

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So he obviously, he doesn't understand the reformed doctrine of baptism in the Holy Spirit, because when he says you're baptized in the

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Spirit, do you come out of it? He doesn't understand reformed theology doctrine of X. You just name it blank. I have to remind him, being baptized into the

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Holy Spirit, is God working to bring you out of the darkness into the light?

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You know what I mean? Are you saying it's like 2 Corinthians 4? Oh, yeah, that's a great message.

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Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah. In their case, the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel, the glory of God, Christ, who is the image of God, for what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as servants for Jesus' sake.

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For God, who said, let light shine out of darkness, has shone in their hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

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That's what God does. He does it. He opens our eyes and our hearts. Uh -oh,

44:04

Trey, you were accused of a straw man. Let's investigate this. Tracy, I don't even know you,

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Tracy, but I love you. What's the straw man, Tracy? Tracy, tell us, please. Tell me, please.

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Come on, come on. I almost said sister. Oh, I think we're getting accused of being smirky.

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Hey. Smirky? Did you just see what he just said? He goes, okay, I'll wait. Like, I'm just like, read the text.

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It says you're obedient from the heart. Tracy, we have invited

44:36

Gallagher to debate me multiple times, and so we are waiting. We invited Gallagher on this right here so we could talk.

44:43

So Mike Hysaw is in the house, Mike. Do you think the Pharisee and the tax collector, do you think they were both saved because they were

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Jews? Great question. I bet he didn't answer it. I don't think he's going to answer it.

44:56

Just for peace's sake, he's not going to answer it. This is my guess if he does answer it, Trey. It doesn't tell us.

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I don't think he'll say what Gallagher says that obviously - He won't say what Gallagher said, but I think for peace's sake amongst the

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Church of Christ, he doesn't want to cause any more like, so he's not going to really say anything. At best,

45:15

I think you're right. He'll say. Yeah, it doesn't say. Please, Mike, tell us. Were both men saved that went up to the temple to pray?

45:24

In Luke 18. We'll be waiting on that. So in the meantime, shall we continue onward?

45:31

I still got half a cup of coffee. Okay. Let's go to you do nothing.

45:39

Okay, false humility. Ready? This is something Calvinism, they frequently do.

45:44

They act like, it's almost like a false humility. Now, I don't mean that they are false in what they believe, but I mean, they try to act like they're the most humble people ever and that you are arrogant.

45:56

But why are they accusing you of being arrogant? Because you said, this is what God said and I did that.

46:02

You know, so it's almost like if you think that you did anything, you are so arrogant.

46:08

It's a man -centered salvation. No, the only thing our salvation centered on is Jesus and Jesus said to do

46:13

X. And so we did X. I mean, literally, what is the debate about? When is a person justified?

46:19

It's about what the Bible says, what Jesus said, what the inspired apostle? I just read you what Jesus says, whoever believes in me has a time in his theology.

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Yeah, he's assuming it, but I just read what Jesus says, whoever believes in me. You know, they don't mean that.

46:33

They don't mean that. Who are writing, speaking through the whole inspiration, the Holy Spirit, what God said, that's what the debate's about.

46:39

So the debate is about what does the Bible say someone needs to do to be forgiven of their sins? And Mike's done a great job with that.

46:46

And Jeremiah, and this is not just Jeremiah. Many guys do this. They say, and I think that's why a lot of people are drawn to reform theology.

46:52

It sounds very humble. It sounds like you, it's all about God.

46:59

It's like, well, it's not though, because they say, okay. When I heard this,

47:06

I was driving back from Baton Rouge and I really laughed. I really laughed at that.

47:11

You know why? He said, what's drawing people to reform theology? You know what the draw is?

47:18

It's a very humbling, you know, theology. Because that's what fallen man's looking for.

47:23

You know what I'm saying? Like that's what they're looking for. You know, fallen, unregenerate person out there who is a God hater, who hates

47:29

God. They're like, you know what I'm looking for? They're like, what? What? Well, I'm looking for something very humbling that gives

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God all the glory. That says I'm a wretched sinner and there's nothing good in me. That's what

47:42

I'm looking for. That's the last thing fallen man's looking for. This is what people, this is why

47:50

I think Aaron hates reform theology, because it says, Aaron, you're not good enough, bro. There's nothing you can do.

47:57

I bet he's trying his best. Oh, he's trying his best, but you know, he's, believe me,

48:03

I know Aaron better than he thinks I know Aaron. I think you're assuming something. Isn't man born perfect, right?

48:11

Is born without any sin, corrupt nature like Adam? No, we're born into this world like Adams.

48:17

Perfect. Upright. And this is why it's a good thing to study Augustine and original sin. Because he was a thinker, you know what

48:25

I'm saying? So you gotta think, why were they baptizing babies if it's for the forgiveness of sins? Why are they baptizing babies?

48:32

Like, why are they baptizing babies if they have no sins on them? Before like hundreds and hundreds of years before Augustine came.

48:40

And to be clear, Church of Christ believed that man is born perfect, not tainted with sin.

48:45

That's the whole deal. They are heretical on another front. Not just denying the only gospel that's saved, but they deny original sin.

48:54

They think man in his natural state can actually seek God. And I mean that has been condemned all throughout church history.

49:02

Oh, yeah, and we got some old dudes older than Augustine talking about some of these things. Brought these things up.

49:10

But he says that Augustine's the one that formulated and made it understandable. But they were all around it the whole time, you know?

49:18

And this is the development of the history of the church. So back to the false humility.

49:27

They say it's all about God, but then God speaks and they ignore what he says. Like in Acts 2 .38.

49:33

There you go. Let me go to my little Acts 22 .16, you know, first page of 3 .21. 22 .16.

49:39

God makes the rules. God is sovereign. Both groups say that. The group that really believes God is sovereign is the group that lets

49:46

God speak for himself and doesn't ignore many passages. And I say ignore. They would say they don't ignore him, but they just go say, well, this is what it says, but they change it, right?

49:55

So anyway, this is something. He's just spewing narrative.

50:00

Like he didn't give anything of substance when he said that. He was assuming his theology.

50:05

I want to address this. This is what Aaron always goes to, but you know, so you got to get baptized and all your past sins are forgiven, right?

50:15

But not your future sins. But in your future sins, if you confess our sins, he's faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

50:23

That's what the Bible says to do to be forgiven. And I don't know if you're

50:29

Church of Christ or not Church of Christ, but this is the verse that they use for their future sins. But the problem is in Hebrews, it says without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

50:38

So you can say you're sorry all you want. If Jesus Christ didn't die for every one of your sins, then you're going to have to go back into that watery grave of baptism to contact the blood, even though that verse is nowhere in the

50:47

Bible. It says that you receive the blood of Jesus Christ by faith. But that's the problem they're going to have with this right here.

50:54

But anyway, you got to do that perfectly to confess perfectly. Repent perfectly.

50:59

You can't do any of that. They will accuse us of misrepresenting them. We're saying no.

51:06

Think about being consistent here. You have to repent of your sin. What if you forget about a sin?

51:13

Then it's not accounted for. You can't put it at perfection and you can't do it.

51:20

And not only that, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

51:26

So you can say you're sorry all you want if the blood of Christ was only for your past sins. You can say you're sorry all you want and you can do it perfectly, too.

51:34

But guess what? It doesn't matter. You still need blood. So you better go back in that bucket of water and dunk yourself.

51:40

Like Paul said, this is why Paul would have said, just like he told the people who said circumcision, the ceremony of circumcision plus faith, you might as well cut it all off.

51:48

This is why he would say today, you might as well drown yourself because you can't do it. Drown yourself. So let's go to the how about the dying moments?

51:58

Dying moments. What do you think he's going to say about dying moments? He disagreed with my song. I don't know, but I really want to answer

52:05

Tracy on Facebook when you get okay. Tracy is says Romans 5 12 last part because all sinned you must actually sin before you're a sinner.

52:13

An infant doesn't sin. Oh, let's talk about that. Let's just so I have a question for for Tracy. Then why do infants die?

52:22

Why do babies reason? What is the reason I really want Tracy to tell me why and give me a biological reason

52:30

You're going to tell me the only reason that infants die when scripture tells us the wages of sin is death

52:37

I agree. I don't think infants have personal sin, but tell me why did they die? Read the whole verse of Romans 5 12.

52:45

There's a reason why sin and death is universal It's because of the sin of one man

52:51

And the church of christ are in a pickle because are they really going to concede that infant death is because of someone else's sin

52:59

Well, how is that fair in your system? Right because you can't receive a condemnation that someone else first started you can't be represented by the first man

53:08

Why do infants die? Tracy in the church of christ theology tell me please tell me it was something biological only

53:18

Okay, I had to I had to throw that out there and shane shane's got the um let's use israel and the serpents in the in the order trust

53:27

Healed looked or trust looked healed Which one is it?

53:36

What was the question again? Sorry? I'm waiting here. We're gonna wait on tracy, but we'll put this one right here

53:44

Here we go. We still we fighting for we got to do it. We can find something here. He says By the way, tracy didn't answer the context.

53:53

I asked you explicitly Why do infants die, please tell me she just answered Well, she said the wages of sin is death and that's spiritual death

54:03

And that's actually wrong because you have to go back to genesis 2 and 3 to understand what death is

54:09

And tracy guess what it involves returning back to the dust to ground. It's physical. It's not just spiritual only

54:14

So tell me we're still back to square one. Tell me why Why why is it when infants die in infancy and it's it's terrible.

54:23

It's tragic What is the reason because they do not have personal sin Well, I want to um bring this up, too

54:31

Therefore just as sin came into the world through one man I've been into the world through but i'm gonna get it on this one.

54:38

I'm gonna show her this death through sin So death spread to all men because all sinned

54:44

For sin indeed was in the world before the law was given See, this is what a lot of them will go to romans 7 7 to try to prove that you're born innocent

54:51

There's no law there's no sin once I was alive apart from the law But when they forget to say that paul said that there was the sin inside him

54:58

He already had sin in him. That is what deceived him But anyway, we can discuss that later, but sin is not counted where there is no law yet Death reigned from adam to moses

55:07

But look there was sin indeed was in the world before the law was given But sin is not counted because there's no law that says don't touch so I don't like I don't know not to touch but I know that it's

55:19

Something's telling me that's not right. I shouldn't have done it So it's not counted Yet death reigned like a king from adam to moses

55:27

Even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of adam. So you had adam had a law moses had a law and everybody in between Died spiritually and physically even though neither the ones there was no one adam.

55:39

There's no law, but they still died Why because sin? Because yep now and adam tracy Tracy for the third time is not answering me.

55:48

She says you're putting physical death equal to spiritual death You can die spiritually without physical death.

55:53

But number one, she's not answering me. What is the reason why some infants die? physically

56:00

In in infancy i'm asking for the reason why they don't have personal sins. So what's the reason? Okay, that's number one and the point of dying spiritually

56:10

Guarantees that you will physically return to the dust of the ground. That is what scripture calls the death

56:15

It has a spiritual element and a physical element and they cannot be separated God created man from the dust of the ground which was physical and god breathed into adam the breath of life man is both

56:28

Physical and spiritual so when he says the day that you sin, you will surely die Okay, and so the point is when adam did sin

56:36

He Plunged all of the cosmos into an evil day of death and adam

56:42

Should have been terminated his physical life gone, but god made a sacrifice with animal coverings

56:48

There was physical death of that 24 hour day should have been adam, but god showed mercy

56:54

There was physical death because the soul that sins shall die and life is in the blood

56:59

There was a physical death and adam began to die physically Right surely you will die.

57:06

It's a guarantee 930 years later. He returned to the dust of the ground. So spiritual death guarantees

57:14

Physical death that is the death death in an article that scripture talks about so She says but say also also do

57:25

She see this is what i'm getting at and I just I wanted to see if she would do this She won't answer the question when an infant dies physically

57:33

What's the reason Tell me Right, and so romans 5 12 tells us but it contradicts their entire theology.

57:41

That's why she won't do it And this is what like when shane puts this up here It's such a sneaky thing and this is what

57:48

I don't respect about uh this shane I just being honest with you because you don't believe this verse.

57:55

I know you're going to say you believe it. I get it But as the son of man was lifted up in the wilderness So must the son of man be lifted up in the and whoever believes on him

58:03

Right should not perish but have ever eternal everlasting life. You don't believe that but you're gonna say you but you don't like whoever believes on him like So I don't have to get baptized.

58:15

So you agree with us No, you don't agree with us But see here's why I don't like people in the church of christ trying to take me anywhere in the book of john

58:23

You know, why don't you jeremiah? Oh, yeah, that's that's our look I do not like people in the church of christ because you don't even believe the book

58:33

Before they take me somewhere in the book of john always ask them first Tell me if you even believe why the book was written

58:39

Now jesus because the the baptism of jesus christ is nowhere mentioned In the book of john as much as you want to try to make it fit into john chapter three

58:48

It's not there that there's no mention of the baptism of jesus christ in the book of john

58:55

But it says now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples which are not written in this book

59:00

But these are written so that you may believe That jesus is the christ

59:05

Okay, this book was written so that you may believe that jesus is the christ the son of god And that by believing you may have life in his name my question to you shane

59:16

Do you believe? The reason this book was written. Do you believe that if you believe that truly?

59:22

By the definitions of these words Right that believe means believe to trust to say here is the greek word

59:31

Here it is right here. Bam. Bam This is what that word means

59:38

To believe trust and trust be confident about think consider believe trust put faith in put faith in christ be in christ

59:45

Put faith in christ. That's what it means Do you believe that that's why this book was written? And if I do that if somebody does that that they'll have eternal life

59:52

If you say yes to that without being baptized then i'll go to john wherever you're wherever you want to go

59:58

Uh, yes, I believe the purpose of john's gospel now. Look at john 336. Hold on Here we go.

01:00:04

This is see I want you wanted to go to john 3 see you see how that I told you he's going to try to Make john 3 about the baptism of jesus and we can talk about that I'd love to but so you're telling me that I don't have to believe so Yes, shane, you believe that I don't have to be baptized in order to have life in his name

01:00:21

Is that what you're saying shane fisher? That I do not have to be baptized I don't mean that Ultimately, that's what he's gonna have to say

01:00:32

And that's sad But yet we're the ones right but yet we're the ones who takes like hard scriptures

01:00:40

And we twist them Like how hard is that? That this book was written that you may believe that you like so when you tell your son.

01:00:47

Hey, believe me Just believe in me, bub We're gonna go we're gonna go shopping today, we're gonna go play golf. Hey, hey, son, we're gonna go fishing

01:00:54

I don't know dad. I don't know if you're really gonna go you might get busy. No, just believe me. We're gonna go What does that mean?

01:01:00

That means get baptized in me son Like nobody thinks that no look at john 336.

01:01:07

See look, there you go. No, no, no, no, so anyway Anyway, yeah, so john,

01:01:12

I mean that's not gonna help either because I mean we already know about that's doing the will The father does not mean pull yourself up by your bootstraps and do good works

01:01:22

Doing the will the father Is believing in the son? I mean, I just I just want to plead people to hear us on that one

01:01:28

Oh, there's orange okie. He loves you. I'm certain the only way trey knows how to speak is in a condescending way

01:01:36

How am I being condescending by saying that you don't believe john 20? I'm, sorry, you just done it.

01:01:41

I don't know how to say it like orange okie is He is a church of christ full preterist and i'm like he's a full preterist

01:01:51

What really? He's a full preterist Oh, yeah, we go running around all the time orange Would you just put in this text thread right now that you believe that the resurrection has already happened?

01:02:03

Is that what you believe? the second coming orange okie I dare you I bet he'll ask you.

01:02:10

I don't believe I do not believe that he believes the second coming of jesus has already happened He says ha ha that's condescending um

01:02:20

So shane says I asked jeremiah some personal questions on messenger that I will put here. Okay?

01:02:27

Oh, he said yes Where you got it orange okie? No, I want him to put it.

01:02:32

I want not just yes. I want him to yeah Orange okie. I want you to admit if you really do believe that the second coming of jesus christ has already happened

01:02:40

I want you to type I believe and trey your favorite your favorite part is this is the new heavens and new earth right now

01:02:46

Stop it. Stop it where there's unicorns Okay orange okie

01:02:53

I dare you To type out what you believe that you believe the second coming's happened and we are right now in the new heavens in the new earth

01:03:02

Totally if you really if you really believe that Just say it. Oh my oh

01:03:10

No way, um christopher doesn't like the doctrines of grace And I just want to tell people you don't have to Hold to the doctrines of grace to be saved.

01:03:21

I know what I would love for people to that's the theological framework that grounds the gospel of grace, but If if somebody believes in christ alone

01:03:32

By faith alone, then I have a lot of charity in my heart for us to talk through other hard doctrines

01:03:38

But please don't add works to the gospel of grace So do you agree with the asv of 1901 on john 3 36?

01:03:47

He that believeth on the son hath eternal life, but he that obeyeth Not or trust not because that's what the word hippie kuo means in the greek

01:03:55

Trust not Uh does not look and hearken to Christ shall not say yeah,

01:04:02

I agree then We see what shane's already doing is does faith include obedience from this first see they're going to assume a definition for obedience

01:04:11

Which means works that's why you have to define To to heed right to be subject to doesn't always entail works.

01:04:18

You can obey In faith, and so that's the language barrier. You've got to do with these guys It's not

01:04:28

I don't think I don't do this let's do this last one real quick. Um, you're you're a nice guy I thought jeremiah was cordial for 95

01:04:35

I thought there was a couple jabs in there a couple interrupting mike, but overall I thought those guys handled Can we interrupt him real quick?

01:04:43

So This to me i'm pretty sure gallagher knows this if he doesn't he needs to understand debate

01:04:50

But you have 25 minutes to control your time Now you got to be careful. You don't want to constantly be interrupting where people are going to be like well, man

01:04:58

He won't even let him answer But you let him give an answer and if they answer it sufficiently Then and to keep them from keep going on and on and on you have to be shrewd you have to say, okay

01:05:09

I appreciate the answer. I want to move on and so To me, it's an unfair critique. Um, i've had many church of christ actually tell me

01:05:16

That they thought I was charitable throughout the whole debate So me interrupting is not out of meanness.

01:05:22

This is my responsibility as an interlocutor to control my time Well, sorry gallagher.

01:05:27

I have about eight questions. I want to ask mike and depending on how he answers I may let him explain a little bit more but again if he gives a short answer that's missing the point

01:05:36

I'm going to cut him off or if I want to build upon that I'm going to cut him off and ask him another one and this was actually a compliment.

01:05:43

I got from mike himself. He said Jeremiah has a lot of experience in cross examination and that is where You know,

01:05:52

I was able to show some not expertise but just some experience of how to control your time Um, i'm just thinking what shane said but here i'll go ahead and play it themselves really well um

01:06:07

I think I think jeremiah. I think I think what I don't know if I said this earlier in the video I think reform theology calvinism

01:06:14

They take hard passages That no one has seen and they impose they use those to teach their theology and then when they get to very simple passages

01:06:22

They say well, that's not what that means Whereas I think the truth is you read acts 2 and it says repent be baptized for the remission of your sins

01:06:30

And you say okay. That's what it says. It's simple. It's clear But you don't do what it simply says, right?

01:06:36

It says to be baptized in jesus in the name of jesus christ But yet you baptize people in the name of the father the son holy spirit

01:06:41

So you don't even hold up to your own standard. Go ahead. Jeremiah Well, just to echo what you said and clearly in his own debate review

01:06:50

He differed on mike hysaul on this point and I told hysaul on the debate There are many church christs that disagree with you on what acts 238 says what it says

01:06:59

Let me tell you something. I'm excited about train I have a clip saved. It's unlisted on the apologetic dog.

01:07:05

Do you remember brock kendall? Um your best friend that I debated two years ago. Yep You know, he doesn't baptize in the triune name he baptizes in the name of jesus christ, yep

01:07:16

Legalism there's no end And guess what if you don't baptize in the triune name or if you baptize in the name of jesus

01:07:22

Or if you don't do that, then you're disobeying acts 238 So the whole point is you have to interpret acts 238

01:07:30

We may agree to disagree but quit saying it says what it says and it means what it means you have to Explicate within the context a consistent interpretation

01:07:40

I will say mike hysaul gets that Gallagher, he's a hard right wing.

01:07:45

And so he's just you know doing the alexander battle cry of it says what it says We speak where the bible speaks, right?

01:07:55

Let's just to hit here to listen harken to so the future future tense of that word that shane's bringing up in john 3

01:08:02

Is to listen hearken give ear to make answer when called to listen or hearken to give ear to attend to answer to submit to yield to uh answer one's expectations to be subject to Anyway back to this now saves you first peter 321.

01:08:17

Okay, that's great. Well, this first says belief save you so Again, you want to take simple passage as he says and he throws out first peter 321 that baptism saves you

01:08:27

Well, let me ask you a question Uh does and i've done this I was in arizona I had a church of christ preacher called me up and he said first peter 321 baptism saves you

01:08:35

I said well I'm gonna ask you a question and I want you to really answer me But I want you to think about it before you answer. It's a simple question

01:08:41

Do you believe that baptism saves you or does jesus christ save you? He was like well it saves you when you're baptized i'm like but it doesn't say that it says baptism saves you see now

01:08:53

We have to have some understanding See you want to act about like a simple verse That's not really simple when the whole bible is very simple that jesus saves us

01:09:01

But now when you see a verse that says baptism saves you you might want to pause and say wait a second Hold up.

01:09:07

What what does this mean? Because it can't mean baptism saves me because we know that jesus saves me So what is this verse actually saying go ahead?

01:09:16

I just want to say um Miss leeanne ferguson does a great job explaining the context of first peter 321

01:09:23

And I try to explain to people This is a hard verse to interpret because when you are analyzing the context before and after meaning with noah

01:09:32

The suffering that he went through the suffering of christ before that and also looking at verse 22

01:09:37

Where everything is now subject under jesus I think the best way to approach first peter 321 like I would just want to encourage people

01:09:44

Um, check out this book christ rescued me from the church of christ amazing Has an amazing testimony that god has um

01:09:54

Given her opportunity and the courage and boldness to explain that story and she's a theologian

01:09:59

She she gets into the context. She has a whole What as a whole? She has a whole man.

01:10:06

We didn't do it the same time like last time She has a whole Mine is like just perfectly clean

01:10:13

I have a few marks in it because mine's on if I showed you my ipad It's marked up everywhere.

01:10:19

It's so good because I have the pdf Well, I just want to encourage people to look in that book because she explains the proof text

01:10:26

She gets into first peter 321 And I love macarthur I love old johnny mack

01:10:33

He is saying hey, it's clear. Peter says not the removal of dirt from the flesh

01:10:38

It's almost as if he is saying don't twist what I said at pentecost. It's not the ceremony of baptism

01:10:44

That now saves you and i've always appreciated that interpretation It's not the ceremony.

01:10:50

There is an immersion that saves us through You know as an appeal to god for a good conscience through the resurrection of jesus and that would be

01:10:58

By faith when we look earlier in the context of first peter or and I always say or it's not the ceremony that saves you

01:11:06

It's the faith in the ceremony that's already justified that person demonstrating their faith

01:11:11

So even though there can be good conversations, um, I think it was mike. I saw one of his kool -aid videos

01:11:17

I laughed at his series named, uh, the what was it the kool -aid? Um, you know talking about the verses or the the videos that he made a while back

01:11:27

He told me that jeremiah is on an island jeremiah Does it jeremiah thinks this is not the the ceremony of baptism?

01:11:34

No one believes that he's on an island I said look i'm on an island with everyone else that Affirms justification by faith alone and we're talking about how to understand the ceremony here.

01:11:44

Is he telling us? That's not the thing i'm talking about a removal of dirt from the flesh or is he saying there's something deeper within?

01:11:51

The ceremony that signifies this truth and it would be faith Thank you, jake thank you um, so I want to show you this clip real quick of his um,

01:12:03

Original sin deal and he brings up some old church history stuff And I thought that was pretty pretty funny when they go to church history just like paul

01:12:12

Day says it's very mind much as mind -boggling that they would go to church history to try to prove their points

01:12:17

Because they can't go to scripture to do it. I mean they're gonna they got like five verses they can go to and then

01:12:22

Jake quit laughing at me It's just a right revolving door of just that but watch this real quick and we're gonna look at something

01:12:29

Everybody before gustin was wrong, right? Here's the epistle of barn of barnabas. Listen to this

01:12:35

This is first century sources. These are first century Epistle of barnabas chapter six and I have this blue link because if I click this

01:12:42

It should pull up for me the epistle of barnabas. I'm trying to look see which screen it's going to bring it up There we go epistle of barnabas so I can show you this is straight from it

01:12:50

Since therefore having renewed us by the remission of our sins. He has made us after another pattern

01:12:56

So when our sins were forgiven, what did that make us like? We should possess the soul of children

01:13:02

In as much as he had created us anew by his spirit i'll go back to my note So what does the epistle of barnabas say first century that whenever our sins are forgiven?

01:13:09

We were made just like the soul of children innocent All right, perfect. So he's trying to prove that you're born innocent and perfect, right?

01:13:16

And so i'm glad he finally got logos But i've got that little blue thing too. I click on you know, watch this bam.

01:13:24

This is the part. He's just quoted Who shot and this is for so his point is like this is first century.

01:13:30

I mean, this is first century This is first century. Okay Okay Okay, you know, we're we're the dudes who say scripture alone

01:13:38

But if you want to go here, I mean we can because we're going to read it in context We're going to see if it's first centuries Therefore you should believe it because it's first century who shall understand the parable of the lord except him who is wise and prudent

01:13:48

Quit misrepresenting train. That's not always said and who loves his lord since therefore having renewed us by the remission of our sins

01:13:55

He has made us After another pattern it is his purpose that we should Possess the soul of children as much as he created us new by his spirit not by baptism

01:14:04

But by his spirit once again spiritual baptism But it's his first century. You got to believe it, right?

01:14:10

What do you think he would believe everything that it's in the uh, the epistle of barbus? I'm gonna be back in just one minute

01:14:16

Okay, let's see if he'll agree with everything in the epistle of barmas just in this little section right here Okay, this is the suffering of christ and the new covenant

01:14:23

It says I cast down for the foundations of zion a stone precious elect a cornerstone honorable next

01:14:29

What says he and he shall uh, and he who shall trust in it shall live forever

01:14:35

It's barnabas first century. Do you believe that that whoever trusts in jesus christ will live forever?

01:14:40

Kind of like what the end of the book of john says whoever believes that he's the christ will have eternal life He goes on to say what then says the knowledge learned trust she says in whom?

01:14:51

Who is to be manifested to you in the flesh that is jesus Blessed be our lord who has placed in us wisdom and understanding of secret things

01:14:59

Oh, wow, it's placing us secret things, right? Behold says the lord. I will take away from these that is from those whom the spirit of the lord foresaw that's

01:15:09

Foresaw it's like a predestination thing. They're stony hearts and I will put hearts of flesh within them

01:15:14

See he's going to change our heart. God does that we don't do it. Then he says we

01:15:19

Then are they whom he has led into the good land What then mean the milk and the honey this that as the infant is kept alive first by honey and then by milk

01:15:30

So also we being quickened and kept alive by faith Of the promise and by the word shall live ruling over the earth.

01:15:38

So that's barnabas. This is the first epistle. I mean he See reggie this little part to try to prove his point, but he would not agree with anything else

01:15:45

The epistle of barnabas said but that's the crazy thing like they will they will Google anything church father and it said this therefore

01:15:54

That's what it means and that that's it. So we're not going to go to the bible We're going to go find something somewhere else.

01:16:01

Go ahead So jay cassaw in the side chat. He said historically i'm on an island

01:16:07

And i'm studying church history and i'm learning that you got to let the early church fathers be the early church fathers

01:16:13

We can all quote different parts. I don't think they were unified and they even admit their theology changes over time

01:16:20

And so a couple thoughts There are many church fathers that say like john chrysostom in his homilies throughout acts, especially when he talks about cornelius and Acts 15 with the jerusalem council how we're cleansed by faith

01:16:35

They say in their letters that we are saved by faith alone

01:16:40

That's something that would never come out of jake or mike's mouth and i'm saying oh I give you a time

01:16:46

I believe in justification by faith alone. That is a kind of quote that I would say See church history.

01:16:53

Uh Cyril of jerusalem will say things like this now. Do I agree with how they're articulating baptism?

01:17:00

Also, maybe not but i'm saying I can see many portions where they're still working these things out.

01:17:06

That's something Yeah, well, well, um, here's clement of rome he was mentioning clement of rome he he quoted some things of pseudo clement

01:17:13

Here's what clement actually said So we having been called through his will in christ

01:17:18

Jesus are not justified through uh through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart but through faith

01:17:27

But through faith whereby the almighty god justified all men that have been from the beginning That's even old testament.

01:17:34

They were saved justified by faith to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen, right?

01:17:40

I can hear It don't say alone and moreover They gave her a sign that she should hang out from her house a scarlet thread thereby showing beforehand that through the blood of the lord

01:17:51

There shall be redemption unto all them that believe And hope on god, right? I mean we can there's so many here.

01:17:59

I mean, I really i'm just scrolling and scrolling and I want to say too Like we have legitimate quotes that say we're saved by faith alone and you have this question

01:18:07

What do they what do they mean by that? And something else I want to say, you know What else the early church fathers taught in in so many words?

01:18:14

That we that they are not infallible that we are to test their writings with scripture so What I what is clear throughout church history?

01:18:24

Is that justification has always been by faith? And as long as you maintain that it's apart from your works like many of the early church fathers did now

01:18:32

They they were still working through baptism. I try to point people away before um aldrich zwingli um

01:18:40

Cyril jerusalem, he talked about that you are justified before baptism by faith

01:18:46

Baptism is a grace of god for the body and i'm over here saying this is how

01:18:51

I would explain our sanctification Of course, it's meaningful. Of course It's spirit rot because the holy spirit indwells believer in this sanctifying ceremony that unifies the local visible church to one another

01:19:06

So they would they would never want us to take their words They would want us to go to scripture and i'm saying what you always see in church history

01:19:14

Is the gospel of grace that's to be received by faith apart from words. Well, here's john chris austin

01:19:20

There's a period of preparation for baptism that coincided with lint. So they did it on certain days They they baptized people on sundays.

01:19:27

I mean if you read a lot of the stuff and they had exorcisms at their baptisms They would dunk them three times once in the father the son the holy spirit

01:19:34

But uh, they enrolled them for baptism classes to teach them, you know What's going on these people who've already come to faith these uh brothers who've already come to faith but they wanted them to know that the severity of living their life for god moving because like If people back in these days went away from the faith, they would have to take them in the church

01:19:53

Would have to take care of them. They wanted to like them to see this importance of how serious this stuff was

01:19:58

Here's baptism instructions Um, look they had words for the exorcists.

01:20:03

Do they do that today? No, they can't heard the exorcist words barefoot and naked. I had to get You know baptized naked

01:20:11

When you get a chance pull up okie's last comment because this is a good example of why we say what we say here um

01:20:19

If you're able to pull it up He says why do you guys put so much emphasis on faith alone?

01:20:26

Why wouldn't you just say? This is so good. Why wouldn't we just say trey saved by faith?

01:20:33

because We are saved by faith apart from works Um, jesus talks about this in the gospels

01:20:41

Paul is super clear in romans and ephesians And we we tack the word alone as a theological conclusion of saying we're justified by faith but what we mean clearly is

01:20:53

Apart from works. It's a faith alone If there wasn't others who changed the definition of the word faith to include works

01:21:00

Then we wouldn't have to say faith alone If the roman catholics didn't say faith plus baptism unto good works equals salvation

01:21:09

Then you wouldn't have to say faith alone if the church of christ today would not say faith plus baptism

01:21:14

But we're saved by faith But then when they explain it they say well faith plus baptism and your good works unto salvation

01:21:19

Is the same thing as roman catholicism's doctrine of justification the same exact thing Here's what here's where the church of christ are a little bit more sly though because they would say faith

01:21:29

Expressed in your obedience. That's not your works. That's that's not your human work

01:21:35

That's a work of god And so to me roman catholicism, they they say no you got a merit justification.

01:21:42

They just own the fact that That that's that's the system of christianity is one where great god's grace is necessary But it's not sufficient it's grace plus your meritorious works

01:21:55

And the church of christ they have to play the the language barrier game of oh we believe by faith

01:22:00

But when you talk to them more, well, that also means obedience and baptism But in case you didn't know faith really is code for baptism, right?

01:22:09

And the word believe is code for baptism, but as a faithful calvinist ideologue Trey's required to believe that salvation is not really by grace through faith

01:22:17

But by irresistible grace that is thrust upon you by regeneration before faith Yes that god gives life to dead things.

01:22:25

He speaks things into existence that don't exist I was spiritually dead and blinded and he gave me a new heart and he

01:22:31

You know, you know, this is the hard verse that really understand according to uh, Aaron, uh

01:22:39

Let's just look it up you tell me how this works Okay, here we go

01:22:47

God says I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean from all your uncleanliness and from all your idols

01:22:52

I will cleanse you I will give you a new heart And a new spirit I will put within you I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh and I will put my spirit within you

01:23:02

And cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules tell me

01:23:08

How i'm able to walk in his statutes and am able to obey his rules without his spirit coming and Over me and coming in me first.

01:23:18

How is that possible? You have no answer As far as scripture. I mean, it's just that's what god does he does that?

01:23:25

And it's a very gracious thing and i'm so grateful chance Okie mentioned romans 3 28.

01:23:32

Um, I don't know how much longer you want to go But this is a good place to where I want to make a few comments all right

01:23:40

One of them so What okie says? But what side of the spectrum does

01:23:48

The new does new testament baptism I think is what he meant to say fall under romans 3 28.

01:23:54

Okay I would actually say you need to read romans 3 27 28 together to kind of feel the full force of what paul is getting at so 27 says

01:24:03

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded by what kind of law by the law of works.

01:24:11

No But by the law of faith Okay. Now this is interesting paul a lot of times speaks in a way where it's like How did these two words go together the law of faith?

01:24:21

um in first corinthians 15 He says we receive a spiritual body and they're like is it a body or is it spiritual right?

01:24:28

Well, there isn't a law of faith meaning a tablet that says this is what faith is sort of speak and it's it's a law

01:24:35

That you must do The law of faith is talking about the principle of faith and the works of law

01:24:41

Of all the works that you could possibly do what the main tray have said this the forefront Are the works of the law which are holy righteous and good

01:24:51

Now when we look at verse 28 for we hold that one is justified by faith Listen, that's what justifies us by faith romans 5 1

01:25:01

Apart from works of the law. Okay. Yeah, i'll give it to you He is talking to a jewish audience

01:25:07

And what's preeminent in their mind is the law of moses and he's saying and that won't even get you saved

01:25:13

Let me just Go ahead and hit this again. There is no works Greater than the works of the law, right?

01:25:20

I mean this is this is perfect. Holy righteous and good These are the laws of almighty god that jesus christ came and fulfilled perfectly for us because we couldn't do like To say that there's some other work lesser

01:25:31

Than the works of the law, let me tell you if the works of the law are not going to do it Then I promise you no other work is going to do it

01:25:38

Okay, so you're right works of law, right? It takes out No, man can escape the works of the law

01:25:46

Back in romans 2 god has written the law on every man's heart

01:25:51

What is that getting at that even gentiles are held accountable to a law of god?

01:25:57

Well, the bare essence of what that means is to love god love neighbor now check this out trey

01:26:04

When we talk about rahab when we talk about somebody Obeying in baptism

01:26:12

They are trying To do this at least in word from a love

01:26:18

Love for god, right which is written on their heart Which is the law of god and he did write it on tablets.

01:26:25

I will say this But what's written on our hearts is not I don't believe it's the law is not written our hearts now in the new covenant

01:26:32

He writes the law on the hearts of his people, but what's written on their heart is the work of the law

01:26:38

So rahab knew what she should do She didn't know why like she didn't know why the law wasn't written in her heart

01:26:44

Like we have this understanding like god has spoken and holy spirit tells us like man We shouldn't do this because of this and because of that and because i've done this for you

01:26:51

We understand that because we're christians, but what is written on every man's heart is the work of the law I know

01:26:57

I should do this. I don't know necessarily why but something inside me tells me I should Take care of these people

01:27:03

That's right. Me and you agree i'm saying on the church of christ system Yeah, they have a problem because in their system she is obeying the command of god

01:27:12

To love neighbor from her heart. So in their system She they think she really is being justified by works of the law

01:27:22

Yeah, that's the whole point is you can't escape it now you rightly said she's expressing her her love for the saints

01:27:30

She's expressing her faith in the true god in what she's doing That's the whole point of how she's justified like abraham the just shall live by faith

01:27:39

But if you say that she had an obedience to a command from god written

01:27:45

Um from the law on her heart Well, then that is actually going back that's going that that is the law of moses

01:27:52

Because now you're saying she loved god mosaic law and her obedience to that is what justified her

01:28:00

Well, that's the law of moses, right? And here's here's here's the the reality You can't love the lord of your god with all of your heart soul mind and strength.

01:28:08

You can't love your neighbor as yourself Perfectly and the law of god demands perfection.

01:28:14

And so my my whole big point with okie and with um romans 328

01:28:20

Is any time that you try to add works? What's embedded in your works is an appeal to try to love god and love neighbor

01:28:28

And that's works of law and you can't do that That's why we say faith alone faith alone the law of faith in contrast to a system of works all together

01:28:40

All right, let's just shut this down it's been fun Has it not been fun?

01:28:47

We haven't had in a long time. Someone said did you guys talk about x 22? We did pimple cheese go back pimple cheese.

01:28:54

How awesome is that? All right, guys. Thanks for watching. Thanks for having me on man. We got we got the turtle book coming up pretty soon turtle club

01:29:03

We'll be doing it Hi We didn't make it eight hours, but we didn't make it three hours and ten. So again one body

01:29:10

Which is the body his body, which is his church the church of christ I mean, man

01:29:15

If you just had some a little bit of common sense you think he drove by these denominations where it says grandma's church baptist church

01:29:22

Methodist church life church. I mean he drove an hour 20 minutes here and they act like they give god the glory and jesus

01:29:30

Grandma's church baptist church Presbyterian church church of christ same thing again.