Does BAPTISM now save us? PT.2 w/@theparishreformed @AaronGallagherTV

Obedience of Faith Versus Works of Law

Any chance you can put Shane Fisher's last question? To me, this is awesome. This is actually one of the verses that Full Federalist will take out of context, and I noticed he, yes, he skipped a huge verse about obedience in Romans 6 and in Romans 10.

So I do want to kind of go down these because the Church of Christ would use this verse along with, what's the verse in is it 1st or 2nd Thessalonians about those who disobey the gospel?

2nd Thessalonians 1, 8 and 9. It's like you had to memorize that.

For 18 years or so. But this is why, remember my sixth definition that I gave and defined in my opening statement, it was the word obey. Because what I want people to understand is obedience when it means to hearken to or follow a list of commands or there's a lot of words that just say to be in allegiance with.

This doesn't always mean your works. I just want to say to obey a command. In the New Testament, we are commanded to believe in Jesus. And so that's... And that doesn't mean do something.

That doesn't mean do something in your works. It's so ingrained in their head. Right. I'm just telling you Jeremiah, it's so ingrained in their head that I can't be justified by just believing in Jesus.

No, I have to prove myself to him. And that has worked. That goes back to Romans 4 that now it's no longer grace. You earned it. It's not something you got graciously. You've earned it. You've proved yourself to me.

Therefore now you get a reward. And so that's the sad thing. And so, but once you understand what is the obedience of faith, well, he's contradicting against, he's fighting against the obedience of the law versus obedience of faith.

So obedience of the law is do this, do this, do this, and then you get rewarded in the end. Right. And so obedience of faith is I'm going to do these things not so that I'm rewarded in the end. I'm doing it because I'm rewarded now.

I'm doing it because I am a Christian. I'm not doing it so that I will be a Christian. And so now my obedience is preceded with faith. It's, it's Hebrews 11, that it's the visible things that you see are happening is evidence that I truly have faith.

That's my faith in God produces obedience to him. Faith produces obedience. Obedience does not produce saving faith. Saving faith produces obedience. So the obedience of faith is I'm still obeying God, but religion says you obey God.

So you will be saved. Christianity, the gospel says you, you're obedient to God because you are saved.

And so I do want us to stay on Shane Fisher's comment here. But when Gavin just simply quotes the verse that says, you know, to those that disobey the gospel, I want people to understand if you are adding your works to faith, then you are disobeying the gospel.

That's why Galatians 1 is there. You don't add, that's, this is the thing. When you look at Galatians, the Judaizers were not just believing in a wrong system of faith. They were adding the ceremony of circumcision along with the law of Moses to faith.

They are adding works with faith, and that's the whole thing. We are justified by faith, not works of law or anything you do by your works. And that is where if you add, Trey, if you add works, then you are severing yourself from the gospel of grace.

You, you are denying it. That's what's been, that was the Galatian heresy. Right. And so I would argue even if you're trying to add a different work than the works of law, in principle, you're trying to go back to the old covenant of works that never saved, only condemned.

Now, I do want to briefly go back to.

His comment. I got, I got 2 Thessalonians 1 .8 right now. It says on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Okay. Again, we've done a whole video and thank God we had a long time Church of Christ-er.

Watch that video of us explaining what it means to obey the gospel here. Given the Greek definitions of the words, the context of it all, and he left the Church of Christ. Thank God, praise God for that.

Because if you go back to Romans 10, verse 16, right?

Okay, so that's the thing. I want us to look at Romans 1 real quick and then notice in Shane's comment, he skips over Romans 6 .17 and Romans 10 .16 and 17, which kind of tell us what obedience in terms of our justification actually looks like.

So Romans 1 .5 says, through whom we have received grace and apostleship, Paul says, to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations. I want to say he tells us in Romans 16 and 17, the gospel is the power of God under salvation.

Verse 17, for in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith. That's the obedience, right? Those who are justified by faith live out the rest of their lives in obedient commands in their works to glorify God, to demonstrate this to the watching world.

So that's the further context of Romans 1. And then before we go to Romans 10, can we go to Romans 6 .17? I debated a 16 and 17. I debated a Church Christ Church, I don't know if you remember, at a university on this very verse.

And so, but thanks be to God that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient, not from your works, but from the heart to that standard of teaching to which you were committed. Now you probably preach this all day long, Trey, when you're back in this world, but to that standard of teaching, they want to go back earlier in Romans 6 and say, it's the gospel, or it's baptism, it's baptism.

They'll say it's the gospel, and then you obey the gospel through Romans 6. So the standard of teaching is the gospel, and the gospel, how do you obey the gospel? I mean, you got to put all these verses together.

You got to put them all together. So, yeah, but I just want to point out real quick, but thanks be to God, not thanks be to y 'all, because y 'all did it, but thanks be to God, because He did it. This is a spiritual baptism.

We would never say thanks be to us. You're misrepresenting us. Right, go ahead. But the point is, of course, you have to say that, but you have opened up the door to say that, where we're saying that's the implication of your system.

So the reason why we're bringing this verse up, it says, obedience from the heart, heart of faith. That's what Paul has been laying the groundwork for. So now, if you want to tackle this one, Romans 10, 16.

I hope Shane... Before we go there, just because, I don't know if we'll even get to.

Gallagher's part on Romans 6, but if I asked Shane or Gavin, because I know we got like a little lag here, just tell me when do you die to your sins? When do you die to sins? I want to answer that. Tell me when you die to your sins, and then we will come back and look at something.

But right now, you want to look at Romans 10? Be looking for when do we die to our sins?

I want to also add, Carl's already trying to change the subject to something else, because I think he's running out of sauce.

So here, so obey the gospel, but they have not all obeyed the gospel, right? We say that obey the gospel is to believe, is to hearken to, to give ear to, is to be in awe and admiration of. That's what obey means in its context in the Greek here.

So not all have obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, so look what Paul uses to back up his statement, obey the gospel. Look what he refers back to. He says, remember what Isaiah says? Who has believed what he has heard from us?

Because that obey there means to believe, to hearken to, to trust, to be in awe of, to be in awe like, oh, you know, because you believe it. That's what obeying is. And so this is what Paul even equates, obeying the gospel, he equates it to who has believed what he's heard.

Not all have obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, who's believed what he's heard from us? Faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. So, when do you die to your sins? Carl? Watery graves of baptism.

I'm just waiting. I doubt they'll answer. But until they answer, we'll save that one for later. Maybe if you and Aaron get to debate.

I think Carl's getting a little bit heated in there. He's telling me to stop. Good grief. Hey, come on. Hey, Carl, let's debate it, my guy. I don't mind. So this is something else, Trey. I think if people go back and watch the debate after they listen to a lot of what we've talked about, this is why there's about six terms you really need to define with the church of Christ.

You got to define faith. You got to define works. You got to define justification and sanctification. You got to define the word baptizo for baptism, and you have to define the word obedience or obey.

So there's what Gavin says here. Hey, it went away. Yeah, so can I make a comment first before you do on this? Because there's assumptions in this statement that I want to tell people. Obeying the gospel according to the church of Christ is from the heart.

Let me back up. Well, what does obey mean? What does the church of Christ mean? And what does from the heart mean? So, internal to external, we believe you got to repent, confess, and be baptized. But in what way?

Because I encourage people to go listen to the debate with me and Gavin. He tried to take me down this trail, and I tried to say, yeah, but I don't mean that according to what you're trying to say because you're trying to work in confession as literally the words that you say and come out of your mouth.

Well, good luck. If you think that that's what Romans 10 -9 means when someone who is mute, because they're not going to be able to do that. You're going to have to pull out a synecdoche or say that it's normative and all these things.

But confess means a heart of faith. Repentance is a heart disposition. And believe is faith. And so when people say this and say, oh, that seems harmless, that's what all Christians believe. What they mean is you must do these things in order to be justified.

That's the thing like Gavin right here is not defining. And so I really want to encourage people. You have to define your terms. You have to look at these proof texts in their context. Right. Let's go to another.

Let's just jump around here for... Thank you, Ruby. The gospel is so simple. Look to King Jesus in faith apart from works. Beautiful.

Do you want to do believe as a work?

Oh, in John 6. Oh, don't expose us. Don't expose us like that. So, okay, so we shift gears to James chapter 2. James 2 21 referencing Abraham. I want to see how much continuity our justification, which sounds like the works of God being obedient to command.

It sounds like I'm going to get another yes here. I'm hoping. Was not Abraham our father justified by works? And so I think tell me if I'm understanding your interpretation. This would be the works of God because he was being obedient to God's command when he offered up his son Isaac.

All right. Yes, it's his obedience to the command to offer up his son Isaac. That's the works in that particular passage.

So we're justified like Abraham because we have an obedient faith when God gives a command. We respond in obedience and your position. It's not a human work. It's the it's the working of God or the works of God, right?

Yeah, you can give that definition. So once again, I think it's gonna be a moot point because what Jeremiah is saying is hey Colossians 2 11 12 says. Now when you look at Colossians 11 and chapter 2 11 and 12 Notice what Colossians says it's your faith in the working of God.

So when you're baptized God is the one that is working in baptism to cut away your sins. Now I think it's a little bit different from John 6 28 29. What is the work of God that you believe? Because that is the work of God or from God.

And what is that that you believe so that's a work you do believing that is necessary for salvation. So this idea will no works are included. Well, that's not what Jesus said so you can you can say all you want.

Well, if you think works are included you're a heretic and it's works. It's man's salvation. You can say all those accusatory things, but it's like the quote that was attributed to maybe aristotle. But there's no evidence.

He said it it says when the argument is lost slander becomes the tool of the enemy. They're slandering now.

I guess you know, what does he consider a slander when um, all those people called him and Mike, I saw From the old church of christ that came to and was dogging me and telling me all all these things about me.

Well, what was that slander? Was that gossip?

But whatever. I mean, hey, he's not understanding that we're talking about the church of christ. Theology is heretical. It's pharisaical. It's trying to work to god now to use what he said earlier if the shoe fits.

We're trying to tell you repent. It's not meant to be slanderous and accusatory. But we are making a biblical case that there is a right gospel. Do you see this tattoo? I got Galatians 2 5.

I think i'm gonna quote it for him. Galatians 4 my other one where paul says right after that am I now your enemy because I tell you the truth. I mean, that's what that's. What we're trying to do is like man.

Don't be mad. I'm trying to tell you. You believe in a false gospel. You believe that your faith plus works equals salvation. Faith plus a ceremony. That's what the whole book of galatians about faith plus a ceremony.

You're you're you're not gonna make it bro, and you're not good enough. Like stop. Just look to christ in faith. But go ahead with uh, john 6 28 29. Because you've never heard this. I've never heard actually have you.

Yeah, well, you know, they think this is a slam dunk and this is what this is what he does. And now I will say gallagher does this will he has his axiomatic verses that are untouchable acts 22 16, right?

You either believe what a nice says there or he's wrong. And we're like, well, that's a false dichotomy, right? I have but we just examine context like we do to acts 238 remember because he says oh if you can explain that away.

You can't explain away what and I said to paul it's like or we just keep examining context. You know what? I mean? And so john 6 I just want to reread this verse again. Because this is one of those axiomatic verses in Gallagher's mind that the context let's ignore all of that.

Let's just look at what jesus is talking about with these gungus moving. Uh crowd that he just performed miracles with right? And so I do want us to look at 28 29 29 together. But this has this is the longest chapter in john, uh, john 6 and so there's so much rich context that comes before and after it so if we if we start back in even 27 do not work For the food that perishes but for the food that endures to eternal life.

Which the son of man will give to you for on him god. The father has set his seal. I do believe this is the first time that the father is referred to as god. So awesome verse there and jesus does say that you must labor For the food that does not perish.

And so what is jesus trying to get them to do? Think Transcendently heavenly and not earthly. Okay, and so verse 28 they said to him What must we do? To be doing the works of god trey. Guess what they are thinking earthly.

And not heavenly they are literally saying what works. Must we do to be made right with god to find favor with him. And the idea is you can't by your own merit by your own effort in your own accomplishments.

That's what they're thinking. That's what nicodemus trained just a few chapters earlier. He was confused by the same thing born again born from above. I can't crawl into my mother's womb again. He's thinking earthly right?

He's probably thinking about john's baptism earthly, right? And not understanding the spiritual truths that john was ultimately pointing to and that jesus was explaining to him. From the old covenant that promised the new covenant to come you're a ruler of the jews and you don't understand these things.

Well, that's because ezekiel 36 is super clear. And here's my point if you don't if you think nicodemus wasn't understanding these things. Do you think these gungus moving? Grumbling crowds that just wanted their tummies full.

Do you think they really understanding? They really understand that they must believe something that is from above you think they understand that truth. No, so. Um, they said him what must we? Do to be doing the works of god.

Jesus answered him. Answered to them saying this this is the work of god. Not that not what you do, right? But there must be belief that you believe in him whom he has sent. And I want to I want to Say this next point because this is the this is the subtle bait and switch that the church of christ do.

Well, you must believe that's the work of god. That's your obedience. So the work of god must be code for your obedient works to a list of commands. That's not what jesus is saying. He is saying you can't do anything the work of god must put belief in you.

That's literally what he says. This is the work of god that you Believe now I would for a moment say the scripture is very clear that this is a gift from above that god grants that the holy Remember god says I will take out that heart of stone and I will give you a heart of flesh so this is the thing tray belief the work of god is a Miracle, how do I know that?

Tray any idea. What works of god happened earlier in john chapter 6 any idea? I bet carl I would. I don't think carl could answer this as fast as I'd need him to. I think he fed some people. Oh, man, now Let's think about this.

He did feed a multitude of people more than six thousand. That's probably just the the men that are represented there. Right, and so is it verse 11? Let's see. Jesus then took the loaves and when he had given things he distributed them to those who were seated.

So also the fish as much as they wanted. This was a miracle this was the work of god in their myths. That's why nicodemus said we know That you were from god based on all the signs and and mighty works that you do.

We know that you are of god the work of god tray Is a miracle. So that's the context when jesus says this is the work of god. Think what miraculous thing has to happen. Oh that you believe that's a work of god.

Not your Participation or something that you can conjure up. That's what this I keep saying gungus moving. This is this groaning Crowd that are following jesus for the wrong reasons when he says labor for the food that doesn't perish.

He means you need to believe right because ultimately the bread of god is jesus. He says I am the bread of life whoever comes to me not in your work. But whoever comes to me in faith believing who he is.

Shall not hunger and those who believe in me shall never thirst this laboring for a food that doesn't perish. This doesn't mean by your labors and by your efforts. These are this is all in the context of saving faith.

Now I'll throw it over to you in a second. But if we look at verse 37 verse 44 and verse, uh 65. This is in the context. Where jesus says all that the father has given me will come to me and i'll i'll lose none of them, right?

No one in fact can come to me unless it that they are drawn by the father, right? Um, and when they come to me when god has granted that this happened I'm gonna raise them up on the last day and this is where the church of christ theology falls.

Yeah, I want to give a hard verse that aaron says. We take hard verses that people don't aren't able to understand and we twist them. Jesus christ says truly truly I jesus. Say to you whoever believes has eternal life.

Not will have it not might have it. Not whoever believes and is baptized. Not whoever believes and does this whoever believes has eternal life. The question is do you believe that. Go ahead?

Okay, so carl is saying works of god in colossians 2 is that earthly. I don't believe it is but the church of christ make the works of god earthly. That's the whole point.

Y 'all believe that the words turn the gospel back into law is what they've done. Yes.

It's the glaze they've taken the law.

They've taken the law and the gospel. And they've taken the gospel and they've turned it back into law. Something you have to do for it. And it's just like what are y 'all doing? But I mean they really can't see it.

I mean he. But carl's probably been raising this his whole life and this is all he's ever heard and it's just so I mean when I tell you. It's just drip drip drip. Everybody else is wrong. Everybody else is wrong.

Everybody else is wrong. This is why so many people who leave the church of christ never come back and they just like they're gone off the reservation because. It's like mormons, right. When mormons leave they typically a lot of them just never.

They say I won't have nothing to do with it. Because I know everybody else is wrong.

And so i'm out, you know, and it's just so heartbreaking and carl carl is saying this like it's a big point. He says believe not just believe jeremiah believe in him. What do you think? We're talking about man?

That's what I mean. And that's what the word we just showed you the greek definition to trust in someone to put your trust. Someone who's worthy of your trust. In in that person. That's what the word believes to believe in him.

That he did all the work for you that he accomplished it all on the cross. That you cannot add anything to it. And here's the deal. Carl, here's the deal. Yeah, and let me tell you why. See this right here.

This is what i've always said jeremiah. Like this is what i've always said the easiest person for a church of christ to really. Uh get tied up in a knot. Is not. Not this guy. Not the 1689 london baptist confession not the og baptist.

But you get a good old american baptist armenian american baptist with a church of christ. And if the church of christ person is just a little nice just a little nice. They'll they'll get the baptist because.

The good old american baptist says no you have to say the sinner's prayer and they're like well. That's not in there. You see they say that to us and we're like. Yeah, I know it's not in there. I know it's not in the bible, but the good old american armenian baptist southern baptist.

Says no, you have to ask these in your heart. You have to confess them. You have to do this. You have to do that, right? You have to walk the aisle you have to do something you have to ask him in your heart.

And then the church of christ person says okay i'm with you. But you also have to get baptized too and they're like no no. Then you show them all these verses because they don't understand doctrine and theology and stuff like that either.

And they're just tied up in a knot and they're like, oh my goodness. And it's the same thing if you read galatians. It's the same thing that judaizer did they said you see leviticus you see deuteronomy.

You see it says the dietary laws you see it says the circumcision you see that and they're like, oh my goodness. It does say I have to do that. Then let's do it. We have to do it this new. Yeah, and so they're like, oh my gosh.

Yeah faith. Yeah, paul knows what he's talking about a little bit, but he's really bad off because look in deuteronomy. It says you got to do this and they're like, oh my goodness. It does say I have to do that.

And so they do it.

Says you got to do all the law too, right?

And so then they're just what in the world has happened. And so paul comes in there says y 'all. No, and then he says, you know what? To the ones who fell from grace, you know, you think this is the way to do it cut it all off so it would be like John the bat would be like paul saying to people today who are taking not The old testament words it's taking paul's words and twisting them and saying you have to be baptized to be saved now.

It would be like okay if you want to do that. Then go full varsity and drown yourself in the water. Like he told the people who in circumcision cut it all off if you're going to do it. Well, you know if you're going if you think baptism is going to save you then you need to drown yourself in it.

If you think the water and you doing that is going to be making god like oh wow. So anyway.

Go ahead. Do we have any future clips? Uh, because I want to save this where he brings up Uh rahab with the works of law and so forth.

No, I don't know if he has rahab. I got some original sin stuff. Ergon. You twisting the scriptures? Is that it where you're twisting things dying moments? That's a good one. How do you? Roman 6 how do they obey?

Oh, I got it. Yeah, i'll wait because there's something I want to add to to rahab and the the so good.

Gavin i'm not going to answer you or shane's questions anymore until you answer the simple one. When do you die to your sins? You keep asking questions, I think it's fair. I've answered me and jeremiah's answered quite a few of your.

You know, it's wild. They're not asking us new questions either.

No, no, they're not. We've already answered uh. So gavin and shane answer the question When do you die to your sins? And we'll answer your next one. Okay um. Okay, so let's go to your. You want to do the.

Let's just do the. I got your twisting scripture, whatever. Ergon, he gives the definition of ergon. We've already hit that. Let's do. The jeremiah believes you do nothing. You want to do that? Yeah.

All right. Here we go. So you wouldn't get me a definition for what works. I mean, it's something done.

Yeah, I think that's okay. Sure. Let's see.

Neither me or mike are disagreeing with the the definition of what is something that work or a deed something you do. There's no problem. The problem is jeremiah's Presupposed theology, which is that nothing you do has anything to do with salvation.

That's reformed theology. That's calvinism. That's not what any early christians believe. It's not what the text of the new testament take, uh teaches. What must we do. Acts 9 -6 paul asks jesus. What must I do?

Jesus didn't say nothing. He said go to the city and a man is going to tell you what you must do. I mean that's from jesus himself. I'm telling you you will never have peace with the entire new testament until you get rid of reformed theology.

Yeah, you know I want to say, you know why you're never going to have peace. With the whole new testament until you get rid of reformed theology Is because you have no answers for it. And you have no peace with it and you're at war with it because you know that what you're saying.

You can't like we're not your typical baptist. That's the the problem. I think that you're gonna talk to a typical baptist and it's just that but you're talking to a reformed og baptist ain't happening.

It's just not and so like yeah, you're not gonna have peace. You're right. You won't have peace. His audience is a bunch of church of christ people and I promise you There is no peace when you come and talk to us about this stuff.

Go ahead. Gavin just conceded that he doesn't want to answer your question. Where did he say? He just he he gave a bible reference so he didn't want to explain his position. Yeah. So while he's rethinking about actually giving an answer, um, he's not under so Gallagher's not understanding.

When we say you don't have to do anything. We mean by your works by your accomplishments. Jesus said to tell us thy it is finished. And this is one.

He doesn't want to answer the question. He wants to want the worst.

Well, they they can't I mean because they already know they're going to get caught in the watery graves of baptism and so forth um. But we've already kind of touched on this is reformed theology is simply being consistent with the reality.

That we are justified by faith apart from works. And then this is what would really help the church of christ understanding this the just shall live by faith. And so this means the justified by faith live out.

Their lives in their works in sanctification to obedience to commands. It's not a perfect obedience, but we're becoming more and more into the image of christ and less and less like the world. That's why and you know, we we interviewed paul day and a lot um talking about if you understand essentially just four basic words faith works justification sanctification you Church of christ usually.

Don't understand what those mean. I was it was nice talking with someone like mike heisel. Who definitely understood? Yeah. Yeah. We we want to be specific with terms. And so he said, you know to me I appreciate that you're talking about the initial point of justification because for him Justification isn't just a one-time act.

It's ongoing and it can be lost. Um, but that's why we need to use the terms that the new testament teaches. That's why trey. I don't like saying Baptism is necessary for salvation. Because what do you mean by baptism?

And what do you mean by salvation because salvation is a process one of regeneration justification sanctification and glorification, right? And somewhere on that spectrum works fits perfectly. It's in your just or it's in your sanctification not your justification.

So i'm over here trying to talk for shane. Yes, so. So shane finally come out said. And paul day I put this up here. The irony of the church christ appealing to church history is just mind-boggling it really is.

And so I want to talk about. Y 'all didn't do that when y 'all were in it even with shane.

No, I mean this is well, I mean you did but you just google, you know Church fathers baptism and you pick something up out of context completely out of context just like aaron gallagher did and does. You know, aaron says he's gonna write a book on early church fathers and stuff.

Oh my goodness. Well, he's gonna have a lot to a lot to say. I mean, but it's all gonna be really bad out of context and uh. But you know, it's that's what they do. But I mean look they take the bible out of context.

Of course, they're gonna take me and you and everybody else and everything else out of context. So i'm going to keep this up here. The irony of the church christ appealing to church history is just mind-boggling.

It is back to the question when you got your.