Do Christians Have to Be Pacifists?

Sovereign Grace Family Church

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October 26, 2021

00:01: Welcome to Conversations with a Calvinist.
00:04: This podcast is dedicated to helping believers better understand scripture, defend truth, and engage culture.
00:11: Get your Bible ready and prepare to engage today's topic.
00:16: Here's your host, Pastor Keith Foskey.
00:19: Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.
00:21: My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist.
00:25: Today I am joined by my longtime friend, but first time on the show, James Benford from Plano, Texas.
00:33: Well, he's not from Plano, Texas, but that's where he's coming to us from today.
00:37: Hi, James.
00:38: How are you? Hey, thanks, Keith.
00:41: Thanks for having me on.
00:42: Yes, sir.
00:43: I'm glad.
00:43: And just to give you guys an introduction and why I've asked James to come on the program is because James is a martial arts instructor.
00:52: In fact, that's how he and I became friends.
00:55: We both teach martial arts.
00:56: He is a master instructor in the art of Taekwondo, and he is one of the leaders with Yesha Ministries, which is a Christian Taekwondo association.
01:07: And we were just talking about before the program that even though he's moved out to Texas, he's still involved with that.
01:12: And I'm thankful for that because that is a wonderful ministry that is going on and continues to go on.
01:18: He is also married.
01:19: He has one child and another child that is on the way.
01:22: And you did say it was this week, right? This week on the way.
01:25: So if we hear your wife yell, we got to go, then we know we'll cut the program and you can run.
01:33: Okay.
01:34: Well, praise the Lord.
01:35: And we will certainly I know I'll be praying that all goes well with that delivery.
01:40: Well, one of the reasons or the main reason why we decided to have this conversation today is because James has had some friends who have been interacting with him about the subject of Christians and pacifism and really the question of, is it right for a Christian to practice self-defense to promote self-defense and like myself and James teach others how to defend themselves? And I know James does martial arts.
02:11: I do martial arts.
02:11: I also teach firearms.
02:13: I teach for the National Rifle Association.
02:15: I have a certification to teach handgun classes for the National Rifle Association.
02:21: So that's a question many people have.
02:23: Is it right for Christians to have this particular bent to be bent towards the defense of themselves, the defense of others, especially regarding certain scriptural passages, which would seem particularly New Testament passages, which would seem to almost go against that idea.
02:45: So James, I'm going to give it over to you for a minute and kind of let you explain sort of what you've heard.
02:49: And we're going to just, we're going to walk through some of the arguments and, and try to decipher what, what do we want to, because I, I I'll ask you this and I think you would agree that you are, you're a believer.
02:59: You're a member of a church out there and you were with a Christian martial arts organization.
03:03: So you, you've had to think about these things from a Christian perspective.
03:08: So you're not coming at this from a secular perspective.
03:11: You're coming at this as a man who believes the Bible and believes that Jesus Christ is your savior and that the word of God is your authority.
03:20: Yes, absolutely.
03:21: And you know, my organization references a lot of scripture in regards to reasons why you would want to learn to defend yourselves and protect your family.
03:31: Now, a lot of, and, and to be honest, looking back on it, I looked through the manuals and such, and they, you know, they talk a lot about old Testament scripture.
03:40: They always reference that.
03:41: There's a lot more physicality in the, in the, the old Testament, you know? Yes.
03:47: Psalm 144 one, blessed be the Lord.
03:50: My rock who trains my hand for war and my fingers for battle.
03:52: Yep.
03:53: Yep.
03:53: Yep.
03:54: Yeah.
03:55: So you know, I, you know how sometimes you just jump into, you know, Facebook arguments or discussions.
04:02: And that's what I did.
04:03: I wasn't directly addressed, but I jumped in there because you start, you're reading what people are saying.
04:09: You're just like, Oh, come on.
04:11: All right.
04:12: This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
04:13: Let me knock them out real quick.
04:15: And you know, I ended up winning the debate, but it wasn't, what bothered me is it wasn't based on my scriptural knowledge.
04:22: I made no scriptural biblical because once they, they made it clear that they weren't interested at all in me referencing anything from the old Testament.
04:31: They only cared about what the apostles had to say and what Jesus had to say.
04:34: So they completely dismissed all of that.
04:37: And I essentially won it by saying like, you know, you don't really believe what you're saying.
04:42: I, I, I hear that you're, you're quoting the scripture, but you don't believe it and you don't believe it the way you're pretending to, to share it.
04:51: Right.
04:51: Because there's no way that you're going to let your children get abducted in the middle of the night without putting up a fight.
04:58: And unless you're willing to say that you don't believe what you're saying.
05:01: And so I will say though, that, you know, I don't want to believe what they're saying, but on the other hand, I'm, I'm disturbed that I wasn't able to justify myself, at least by the new Testament scriptures knowledge and beat them on that, on that front.
05:18: You know, I really used a straw man argument argument and you know, I feel like, you know, I'm faced with something like that.
05:26: I really need to wrestle with myself, try to read the scripture that I'm confused about and try to read other things.
05:35: You know, like we mentioned earlier about the internet being a great thing is, you know, it does help me as a non-biblical scholar to look at potential different verses that have to do at least with the topic and then compare and contrast and then try to research.
05:52: And one thing, you know, I'll say is another reason I've always, I've dismissed this topic many, many times and I've really only heard of it within the last like five years or so and it's never crossed my path before.
06:09: But usually the people espousing these things tend to have something in common, right? You've maybe you've quoted this from someone else, but I've heard it from you is that there's a difference between someone that's harmless and someone that's helpless.
06:25: And these helpless people are the ones that are saying it because they know they can't defend themselves.
06:31: They've done nothing to prepare to protect their family.
06:33: And they're really hoping and praying on the God to protect their dead bolts on their house, because if somebody gets in there, they're done for.
06:42: And so when they read these scriptures and honestly, the way I'm reading the scriptures and having a hard time reading them other ways, they're like, yeah, I totally agree with that because it's totally in line with who I am.
06:56: There's nothing I can do to defend myself.
06:58: And that means this is great.
07:01: I'm totally in line with what Jesus wants me to do.
07:04: And my analogy was, you know, one of the scriptures talks about being sheep for the slaughter.
07:12: But my description was we're just a bunch of mice in a world of snakes that are here to be devoured by the enemy.
07:20: And that's our purpose after the coming of Christ or the resurrection of Christ.
07:26: Right.
07:27: And so, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.
07:29: And I will say it feels a little bit like the Mandela effect.
07:33: Like I said, I'm almost 40 years old, and this hasn't been discussed in church.
07:39: This hasn't been debated in church, at least.
07:42: The pastors never offered it up and then said, OK, here's some controversy, some controversy regarding these two ideologies.
07:53: Let me explain to you why it's this way or why it's that way.
07:56: And part of me wonders if maybe they're skirting the topic like many pastors will tend to do.
08:03: It's like, why get into this? Like, look, our country was built on the fact that we're rebels.
08:09: We're built on the fact that we stand up against the government.
08:14: We're heavily involved in the military.
08:16: Military is in the congregation.
08:19: Why basically condemn every police officer, military member, martial artist, anybody that has broken the speed limit? Send them to hell.
08:31: You know, let's not have that discussion.
08:34: I wonder if that might be the case.
08:36: It seems like there's a good argument on both sides, so I'm not sure why it is like I woke up in a different dimension.
08:44: And now this is a topic that we're confused about or I'm confused about.
08:50: Well, I'm glad you asked the question because I think you're right in so many ways.
08:55: But I want to key in on something that you said.
08:57: A lot of ministers will avoid topics that are controversial for their congregation, like for instance, in a congregation like mine, it's not controversial at all for me to call out homosexuals because homosexuality, everybody in our congregation, not everybody, but generally within our congregation, there's sort of a agreement that homosexuality is a sin, you know, but in certain congregations, the pastor would be afraid to say that because not everybody does agree.
09:28: And there would be this battle and in a congregation like ours, what would be more difficult than to say abortion is wrong or homosexuality is wrong? It would be more difficult to argue like patriotism can be idolatrous because that's and you see, I got my flag behind me.
09:45: What's funny is the reason for this particular backdrop that I'm using is two or three weeks ago, I did a show on the question of is patriotism idolatrous? Because I do think these are questions we should be asking.
09:58: These are things that we should be addressing.
10:00: And one of the questions that is often left unaddressed is the subject of self-defense.
10:07: And I remember years ago, I had a man in my church who was unhappy with me.
10:13: And that's not anything that's unsurprising.
10:16: It happens.
10:16: People get unhappy.
10:18: And he thought, well, I want to try to get rid of you.
10:23: And he said this basically to me.
10:24: He says, you know what? I'm going to get the elders to take away your karate program, and that'll make you look for another church.
10:32: And I said, first of all, if you took away my karate program, it would not make me look for another church.
10:36: I'm still going to be the pastor here if I don't teach karate.
10:38: That's a ridiculous thing.
10:41: I said, but second of all, what basis would you have for them to take the karate program away? He said, well, you're teaching people how to fight.
10:48: I said, well, I do have a difference of opinion there.
10:50: I believe I'm teaching people how to defend themselves.
10:52: And I do think there's a difference between teaching people to be actively violent versus teaching people to how to be defensive or how to defend themselves.
11:02: And I said, and let me ask you a question.
11:03: Do you own a gun? And he said, yes.
11:05: I said, if a man broke into your house to rape you or rape your wife or hurt you, would you use that gun to defend yourself? And he goes, absolutely.
11:13: I said, then you are the biggest hypocrite that I've ever met, because you're telling me that I shouldn't teach people to defend themselves with their hands, but you're more than willing to defend yourself with a weapon.
11:23: So just like you, I won the debate, but I didn't do so through scripture.
11:28: I just did so by pointing out the hypocrisy of this man.
11:32: And the thing that we often don't do is we often don't go to the scripture.
11:37: So that is what one of the things we are going to do today.
11:40: We're going to look at some of the relevant passages.
11:42: We're going to ask some of the more difficult questions.
11:45: And I'm not going to promise you that I'm going to be able to give you a satisfactory answer to every single thing that you ask, because we didn't do any pre-show scripting.
11:54: We are all of this is coming.
11:56: You know, I asked you to come on the show today and you're here and I'm thankful.
11:59: But before we do, I do want to make a quick point and it kind of goes along with what I just said.
12:06: I do think that there's a difference between defense and fighting.
12:12: And I don't even think fighting as a sport is always wrong.
12:17: That's something we could maybe get to if we have time, because I do that.
12:21: Paul uses an example where he talks about boxing and he uses boxing as an example of discipline in the Christian life.
12:29: And he says, you know, and so we know going back to the time of Paul and the time of the Greeks, there were Olympics and part of the Olympics were wrestling and, you know, they were boxing and things like that.
12:41: So they understood sport fighting.
12:44: And so I've had people ask me, do you think that something like MMA is automatically wrong? I don't think so.
12:51: I think that there's a sense in which when two men are engaging in a situation where they are both, neither one of them are attempting to, in a sense, hurt or injure one another.
13:00: They're trying to best the other that they're in and overcome.
13:04: And it's just like, you know, if you think MMA is sinful because two men are swinging, well, what's the difference between that and football or hockey or anything else that involves a physical sport? And somebody says, well, in football, they're not intentionally trying to hurt each other.
13:19: Have you ever watched football? They're trying to knock their heads off, you know, and so, but yeah, I like, I like to draw a distinction between, you know, hurt and injuries and also killing.
13:34: The intention of the MMA match is certainly not to kill somebody else.
13:42: So that's, that's not their goal.
13:45: Not even necessarily injuring, hurt, right? When we're tapping out, that's a hurt.
13:53: That's not necessarily an injury.
13:55: If you don't tap out, you might get injured.
13:57: And then I tell my students in my class, especially the advanced classes, like our goal is to hurt each other.
14:05: But we want to avoid injury.
14:07: And it's all a matter of semantics of what we call hurt and injury.
14:12: I agree.
14:13: Just because you bend your fingers back too far, that doesn't mean you're injured.
14:18: The hurt goes away within seconds.
14:21: Maybe, you know, if you get the arm bar put on you too hard, maybe your elbow hurts for, you know, you know, a few days, a week, that's not being injured, right? Yeah.
14:33: Yeah.
14:34: It's funny.
14:34: I mentioned that in class today's Tuesday.
14:36: I had my class last night and I made that distinction between pain and injury.
14:41: You know, pain is often what grows us, you know, when we learn to overcome pain.
14:46: And again, Paul uses that example, you know, there are pains in life that cause us our faith to grow.
14:52: And these are all examples that we could draw from.
14:55: I do want to make another distinction if I could, before we get into the scripture passages, because within the realm of Christianity, there are two wildly diverging perspectives on this.
15:07: And there is the complete pacifist perspective, which is held, you know, depending on it's held by a vast majority of people or not majority, but a large group of people.
15:21: But we would often think of like the Amish, the Mennonites, people like that, who would hold to a specifically pacifistic view, but there are also some more mainline Christians.
15:34: Like, are you familiar with John Piper? Do you know who John Piper is? That name sounds familiar, but I'm not sure what he stands for.
15:40: He was the pastor of Bethlehem Baptist church, which I think is in Minnesota.
15:44: I had to check that, but he was a long time, very well-known pastor.
15:49: Well, recently, and it's been within the last few years, he was asked about the subject of self-defense.
15:54: And he said, if somebody broke into my house to hurt my family, I would rather him kill me and my family than to kill him.
16:04: And I was very surprised to hear him say that, but that was his perspective.
16:08: He said, because if I kill this man, I'm condemning his soul to hell.
16:13: But if he kills me, all he's doing is giving me a one-way ticket to be with Jesus.
16:18: And if he kills my family, I know my family's safe.
16:21: I'm not saying I agree with him.
16:22: I'm just saying this is that far perspective that's saying, yeah.
16:30: And I would say John Piper fits in that very extreme pacifistic.
16:36: I wouldn't even defend my wife if she were being raped.
16:39: I wouldn't take a gun and shoot somebody if somebody was hurting my kids.
16:44: And that to me is, I'm going to say it.
16:47: I think that's an unbiblical perspective.
16:49: As much as I respect John Piper, I hope to show by the end of today's program, I see that as an unbiblical perspective.
16:55: But that is- It's hard to relate.
16:56: It's hard to relate with that.
16:59: And it also has to do with, I think, our society and what we've been taught and the values we've grown up with.
17:07: Justice has always been very important.
17:09: We have a whole branch of government dedicated to it, slowly getting worse.
17:15: But the goal is to make sure that everybody is treated fairly, equally, not equitably, equally.
17:24: And the idea of not defending those that are in need is really hard, I think, for us to conceptualize.
17:36: I wonder if we had a totally different society that was used to just getting picked off like fish in a barrel by predators, if that was just part of it.
17:47: Because there are animals in the world that...
17:51: A lot of animals were built to sustain others.
17:55: You got animals like guinea pigs.
17:58: What in the world are they here for? They're here to feed other people.
18:02: And they run around in a...
18:04: I don't know if you've seen guinea pigs in the wild.
18:06: They run around the herd, and they're just there to be taken out and eaten by bigger animals.
18:11: And they cry, they scream when they're in pain.
18:15: But ultimately, the rest of the herd is not going to jump on the wolf or dingo or whatever the world is, the predator in their country.
18:26: They're not going to defend each other.
18:28: They're just going to accept the sacrifice that the other one made for the rest.
18:34: And that's just not how we are here in the Western society, at least.
18:40: Never, never.
18:42: Yeah.
18:42: So anyway.
18:43: No, no, that's a good thought.
18:44: And it leads to really what's typically referred to, because I mentioned the side that's over here.
18:53: And then you have, of course, you have the far side on the other side that would be like, no matter what, if little Johnny slaps you, you slap little Johnny.
19:02: The idea of any time you look at me the wrong way, I'm going to knock you in the head.
19:06: Obviously, there are some Christians who hold that perspective, but I would not say that's a biblical perspective.
19:11: So I think we have two unbiblical perspectives, a perspective that says you never can defend.
19:17: And then there's a perspective that says that no matter what somebody does to you, they're cruising for a beaten.
19:24: Might makes right.
19:26: Exactly.
19:27: Yeah.
19:28: Strike first, strike hard.
19:30: Yeah.
19:30: No mercy.
19:31: Yeah.
19:31: The Cobra Kai Christian.
19:33: That would be a funny shirt.
19:35: Yeah.
19:36: So in the middle, and I don't even know if it's in the middle to right, say, but oftentimes one of my fellow elders, brother Andy, he often talks about the ditches.
19:46: He says in life, you got to look out for the ditches because there's ditches on both sides.
19:49: And oftentimes the truth is not in the ditch, but rather it's in the middle.
19:54: It's where you find, you know, and that may sound like you're riding the fence, but he's not riding the fence.
19:59: Yeah.
20:00: It's easy to fall off into the ditch on either side.
20:03: And Augustine was a thinker.
20:10: We oftentimes we think of Augustine, but I say Augustine, but you're familiar with the city, St.
20:16: Augustine was south of where you used to live.
20:19: And Augustine was a brilliant Christian thinker, writer, theologian, pastor, teacher.
20:28: And he describes for us the basis of what we call just war theory.
20:36: And just war theory is based on the idea that sometimes love of neighbor, which is what we are called to do.
20:45: If you break down all the law of God, according to Jesus, it's all broken down into two laws.
20:50: Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
20:52: Love your neighbor as yourself.
20:54: That's the whole law.
20:55: He said on that is all the law in the prophets.
20:56: He says there are times where love of neighbor would require the intervention of a act of violence.
21:06: And this is the description he used.
21:07: He says, if I were coming home and I were to walk by and see my neighbor being assaulted by someone else, I would have two choice or three.
21:19: I forget.
21:19: I think he said two or three choices.
21:21: I think there was a third, but the one choice he said I could continue walking.
21:24: I could not intervene at all, he said.
21:27: And that would not be an act of love, he said.
21:32: And then there was another act.
21:33: I think there was an act of trying to engage with some form of diplomacy.
21:37: He says, but that doesn't always work.
21:39: You can't always talk the violent man out of being a violent man.
21:44: And then the third was I may have to engage violence with this act of violence, but it a just act of violence because it would be to save this person who is the victim.
22:00: The victim is the one I'm showing love to.
22:06: And that particular model for understanding just war has actually been used down through the centuries.
22:15: Because again, we're looking at Augustine.
22:16: He lived in the 400s.
22:18: So we're looking at 1,500, 1,600 years ago.
22:21: But that model has been used and understood by Christians throughout the centuries as how we are able to address the subject of can a Christian serve as a soldier? Can a Christian serve as a police officer? Because you know as well as I do, James, that a police officer can't be a pacifist, not in the sense of that he would never lift his hands.
22:49: Because I was going to say when they do that, they're essentially saying that if they want police to exist, if they want military to exist, they're hoping that the pagans take care of us.
23:03: Am I wrong? No.
23:05: In fact, I'm glad you mentioned that you're actually right in line with something that I have said many times.
23:11: If we say that no Christian can serve as a military man, no Christian can serve as a policeman, no Christian can serve in the National Guard or whatever, what we are saying is that we have abandoned any responsibility for self-preservation and protection to the unbelieving world.
23:33: And therefore, there won't be any godliness in the military.
23:37: There won't be any godliness in the National Guard.
23:39: There won't be any godliness in the police.
23:41: And that's a dangerous thing.
23:45: And I want to read something that it's on my notes here, because this is something that I have argued this point.
23:52: I've said that pacifists live safely under the protection of those who are ready to do violence on their behalf.
24:01: There's a reason why there's a bunch of Amish people here, and there's not a lot of Amish people in Afghanistan.
24:07: Yeah, because they're here under the protection of those who are willing to do violence on their behalf.
24:16: They have police who are willing to protect people from doing them harm.
24:20: They have a military that's willing to protect them from harm.
24:24: They live under the protection of men who are willing to do violence.
24:29: So even though they themselves would not do violence, they are benefiting from people who would.
24:35: Yeah, I don't want to jump the gun, but they will reference in regards to obeying leadership and being underneath ungodly leadership.
24:46: Paul was talking about obeying the government, listening to what they do.
24:51: They are appointed by God.
24:53: And this was under Nero.
24:55: And so they were already under an ungodly, oppressive government, and Paul was constantly in prison.
25:02: Maybe he wrote it while he was in prison.
25:05: I forget, but they make that argument that it's okay that the military, the government, et cetera, are ungodly because God's in control and God appointed them.
25:20: And whatever they do, it's for the greater good.
25:25: It's for the long term, long end goal.
25:28: And I think that's very much their argument on that one.
25:32: Yeah, there's going to be terrible people.
25:35: God will use them too, which is hard to accept for sure.
25:42: I have talked a little bit about Romans 13 on the show before, because that's the passage that's often cited there.
25:49: Even in Romans 13, though, the government has a responsibility.
25:53: The responsibility, according to Romans 13, is that the responsibility of the government is to reward good and punish evil.
26:01: And how do you know that you're under a godless government? Well, the book of Isaiah tells us that when the good is called evil and evil is called good, and when sweet is replaced with bitter and bitter is replaced with sweet, that tells us that we're under a godless government.
26:17: That's not the goal.
26:19: That's not what we should hope for.
26:20: We should pray that the government is a government that rewards good and punishes evil.
26:26: And while I can say America has never had a perfect government, as no nation ever has, we have seen points of righteousness in our government and in the history of our government.
26:39: We're the only government that really, in a sense, well, not the only.
26:43: We're the first to really have abolished slavery around the world.
26:47: Slavery was a standard in all nations around the world for centuries, for millennia.
26:54: And yet we had a civil war that eradicated slavery here in the United States and now, of course, set the standard for the rest of the world.
27:03: And that's a good thing.
27:04: And that was led by people who understood the dignity and value of human beings, whether they be black, white, or whatever.
27:14: So there is good that the government can do, and we should promote good.
27:18: And how do we promote good within a government without having men and women in leadership who are godly people? So, yeah, just a thought.
27:28: But we haven't looked at it.
27:29: It seems like you go down the tunnel eventually without some level of godliness or at least accountability from those that are godly, right? So our voting system was set up in a way, in theory, that the godly could vote and the representatives would, even if begrudgingly, complete the mandate they were given by the citizens.
27:55: But easier said than done.
27:58: Oh, for sure.
28:00: Well, we're going to look at some specific scriptures, but I want to go back one last thing about Augustine's Just War Theory.
28:06: The thing about Just War Theory, and actually one day I hope to pen a book.
28:10: I've got my outline and everything ready, but I haven't sat down to write it.
28:13: But the book would be entitled Benevolent Violence.
28:15: And the idea behind that is that there are times, it would be based on Augustine's teaching, it would be my own idea, it would be his idea, is that there are times when violence is not just a necessary evil but is actually a moral good.
28:27: There are times when doing violence is a moral good.
28:31: When a police officer stops a shooter from shooting up a school by shooting that shooter, that's a moral good.
28:38: When that man, I don't remember if you remember that church in Texas where the guy came in with a shotgun.
28:42: And this dude, I mean, he was a hero.
28:46: He stood up, drew his gun, 25 foot away, headshot, one shot, dude fell down.
28:52: He probably saved countless lives that day.
28:55: He saved the people in that church.
28:57: And that was not a necessary evil.
28:59: That was a moral good.
29:00: That's the difference.
29:01: Seeing that as a moral good helps me at least recognize that it's not about choosing the lesser of two evils, because that's often the argument, right? Well, if you have to choose between two evils, don't choose either.
29:12: Just let yourself be the gerbil getting eaten by the snake.
29:16: No, there's a moral virtue using force, like for instance, and I know this sounds silly, but I hope the listener can understand what I'm saying.
29:26: If you walk down the continuum of violence, CPR is a violent act.
29:34: It often breaks ribs.
29:36: It creates bruising.
29:38: There's all kinds of things.
29:39: But no one would doubt that that's a benevolent violence when it's done to the body, because it's done to save their life.
29:46: And so that is an example of what I would say is a benevolent form of violence.
29:51: When I spank my child and oh, don't send the, we do spank our children.
29:57: And I believe that that is a benevolent form of, in a sense, violence, because it's a spank.
30:02: Nobody wants to be spanked.
30:03: If I walked up to you and hit you with a belt on the rear end, you'd be mad because I have no right to do that for my children.
30:14: But there's an act of love there because the Bible says, if I spare the rod, I hate my child.
30:20: I have not done him right by allowing him to continue in his foolishness.
30:26: So there is a sense where I believe use of force can be virtuous.
30:29: It can be benevolent.
30:31: And so let's look at some passages.
30:35: You said you had some thoughts.
30:36: I'd like to.
30:37: Yeah.
30:39: So one of the first things that always came to my mind, and of course, was quick for me to shoot off the hip in the discussion was like, hey, Jesus told them to go buy swords, right? So as time was coming that Jesus knew he was going to be arrested and crucified, he told his people, like, hey, you make sure you got some swords on you, right? And so they'd quickly retort back.
31:07: And again, this could be a stretch of their understanding of the scripture was first off that the swords weren't really like combat swords.
31:17: It was kind of more like a machete or dagger to help do a utility knife and also to help protect them against wild animals and stuff as they're traversing their part of the land back in the day.
31:34: And they also said that part of it also was so that Peter could fulfill kind of the story that Jesus knew was going to play out.
31:46: He was going to be able to rebuke Peter for cutting off the ear of the soldier, policeman, whatever it is.
31:51: And that was the only reason he said, hey, make sure you got your swords because he knew that Peter was going to do that and he could rebuke him, which he did.
32:00: He told Peter, put it back in its place and healed the man and his ear in that time.
32:07: So I think that was one of their kind of their first rebuttals to the only scripture that I could think of at the time right off my hip.
32:18: Yeah, and that's an interesting passage because that passage is often used to defend the idea of having a weapon.
32:27: You know, Jesus tells us.
32:29: And just to be clear that we're on the same passage, because I'm looking as you're talking here.
32:36: Yep.
32:37: Verse 36, it says, he said to them, but now let the one who has a money bag take it and likewise a knapsack and let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
32:49: And time does not allow us to sit here and go through all the different commentaries on this.
32:53: There are certainly many commentaries.
32:55: And the thing about commentaries is they will often just like a translation, a commentary is always going to be affected by the person who's making the comment.
33:06: Right.
33:08: The best types of commentaries for getting to the meaning of a text are exegetical commentaries, ones that look at the use of language and the use of the historical grammatical context of this language.
33:20: So when you say that the person you were talking to said that the sword is more like a machete or whatever, that we would have to look at the historical grammatical context to know.
33:30: But I know that there have been difference of the way people interpret that.
33:34: And why would Jesus tell them to pick up a sword? Some people, like you said, say that it was to defend them from animals because they were going to be going out into, they were going to be having to go out and they may face animals.
33:46: I had never heard the interpretation that you gave about Peter, that Jesus was preparing Peter for this moment.
33:53: But it is interesting that Jesus did tell them to have a sword.
33:56: And then later he tells Peter that very memorable line, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword.
34:03: And I do think that that's an important consideration that we have to give.
34:09: What did Jesus mean when he said he who lives by the sword will die by the sword? I don't think it's really hard to understand what he means there.
34:15: But again, it's not always interpretation, but it's application.
34:18: How do we apply that? Does that mean it's always wrong to have a sword? No, because he just a few verses earlier told him to have a sword.
34:25: So go ahead.
34:25: You had a thought.
34:26: Yeah.
34:26: I was going to say, does dying by the sword necessarily mean that you were wrong or evil? Perhaps you were called to a braver role, like a soldier or someone that keeps the peace.
34:40: And that would still be true.
34:42: If you lived by the sword, you died by the sword.
34:45: A policeman that is often involved in shootouts, hypothetically speaking, there's a much higher chance that he's going to get shot.
34:56: Right.
34:57: So I think that it still stands to reason it wasn't necessarily telling someone that they would die by the sword.
35:03: It's kind of like a warning, like you play with fire.
35:06: You're going to get burned.
35:07: Well, someone's got to be a fireman.
35:10: Yeah, that's true.
35:11: And the idea of if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword.
35:15: I do think there's also in that the built in concept of the idea of reliance.
35:21: If your faith is in your sword, then that's the problem.
35:28: Our faith is in God, not in our abilities, not in our weapons.
35:31: But that doesn't mean it's just like this.
35:34: I've recently come across a great saying, and I've been saying I've said it like six times this week, and we'll say it on the program.
35:39: You don't lay on the shovel and pray for a hole.
35:43: God gives you the shovel to have the hole.
35:45: Right.
35:45: And so there is a reason to have a sword.
35:48: Jesus told them go and buy a sword.
35:51: So there's whatever the reason is, whether it's animals or whatever, there's a reason to have a sword.
35:55: So when Jesus later says he who lives by the sword will die by the sword, he's not saying that having a sword is wrong because he just told him to get one.
36:02: He's saying, though, that there is a certain sense in which our reliance.
36:06: Where is our faith? Where is our trust? And I do know some people, and you probably know some people, too, who that is where their faith is.
36:15: It's in their skill or in their weaponry.
36:18: And I think about, oh, this might get me in trouble.
36:20: But there are people who are like preppers.
36:23: You know, they have.
36:24: And again, I think preparing for things is okay.
36:28: You know, certainly having food stores for things like hurricanes, stuff like that.
36:32: All these are.
36:33: But people who place their trust in their ability to amass a prepper situation where they're preparing these things, I do have to wonder and say, are we over trusting in our in what we can do rather than what God can do? So when Jesus says he who lives by the sword, I think there's an idea that you're living with trust in that sword.
37:02: You know, when Peter cut the ear off of Malchus, the servant of the priest, he was saying this is how Jesus is going to be protected was with this sword.
37:12: And Jesus was like, no, that's your faith is in the wrong place.
37:15: One, this is supposed to happen.
37:18: And two, if you live with that attitude, then you're going to die with that attitude.
37:24: So I think that there's that could be a way that we understand that as well.
37:31: Now, you mentioned another passage that I wanted to look at, and I know you've got yours up on your screen, so you'll have to tell me where to go.
37:38: The passage between John the Baptist and the soldiers, because I often reference this, I just don't have it up in front of me right now.
37:47: Let's see the one about do no violence.
37:53: Yes, because some translations say do no violence.
37:56: And I want to address that one specifically.
38:02: Sorry.
38:04: No, it's fine.
38:05: No worries.
38:07: Luke, Luke three.
38:09: Luke three.
38:10: Let's see.
38:11: And verse 14, I think, is around where the meat of that is.
38:15: There it is.
38:16: There it is.
38:17: And I'm going to try to find that because I always pull up the ESV, because that's what I preach out of.
38:22: But I want to see if I see one that says that actually says do no violence.
38:25: I bet you.
38:28: Yep, it's the King James.
38:30: And the King James is a wonderful translation.
38:33: Certainly has been used to save many souls.
38:36: So I would never come out opposing the King James.
38:39: But there are times where language in certain context has a nuance of meaning.
38:46: And so I want to read it from the King James, and then I'm going to read it from the ESV, because I both pulled up on my screen.
38:51: And I want the listener to be listening for the difference, because it says in the King James, it says, this is John the Baptist speaking to soldiers.
39:01: Soldiers came to him, and they said, what shall we do? And the idea is, what shall we do to be saved? We want to know what you're the sage.
39:10: You're the spiritual wise man.
39:12: You're the man out here who's eating locusts and wild honey.
39:14: And we're crazy clothes.
39:17: And you're the prophet.
39:19: Tell us what to do.
39:20: That's verse 12, verse 13.
39:22: And he said unto them, exact no more than that which is appointed to you.
39:29: And soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, what shall we do? And he said to them, do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely and be content with your wages.
39:41: So there are those who would translate do violence to no man as being.
39:47: If you're a soldier, you've got to be a conscientious objector.
39:51: You got to be the guy from Hacksaw Ridge.
39:53: I don't know if you saw that movie.
39:54: No, but.
39:55: Oh, yeah, I do.
39:56: I know what you're talking about.
39:57: How are you a soldier without soldiering? Yeah, well, that movie does show an interesting version of somebody.
40:07: I think he was a seven day Adventist.
40:09: He could not based upon his understanding of the scriptures.
40:13: He could not enact in anything, but he wanted to go.
40:16: He wanted to be a soldier.
40:16: He just wouldn't pick up a weapon.
40:18: So he ends up saving a bunch of guys lives.
40:20: And it's a true story.
40:21: He ends up saving a bunch of people's lives, but he did it without ever touching a gun.
40:25: He did it without ever doing any violence.
40:26: And I would say as amazing as that story is, and it is an amazing story, it is certainly not the norm.
40:34: If everybody went over there, somebody has to fight back.
40:37: Yeah, if everybody went over there with that same mindset, then you're never going to win.
40:44: You're going to be the proverbial gerbil with the snakes.
40:50: Yeah, but this is what the ESV says.
40:52: It says tax collectors came to be baptized, said, teacher, what shall we do? And he said to them, collect no more than what is authorized to you.
40:59: Verse 14 soldiers also asked him and we what shall we do? And he said, this is the ESV.
41:04: Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation and be content with your wages.
41:15: So the King James version says do violence to no one.
41:20: But the same word is translated by the ESV extort.
41:25: I can look up and see what word is actually being translated there.
41:28: The SEO is the Greek word, and it literally means to shake thoroughly or intimidate.
41:36: And so the idea was a soldier who is using his authority to shake down a person who has done who has not done anything wrong.
41:47: I do not believe that John the Baptist is forbidding them from using an armbar against not that they would call it that, but a soldier from using force to stop a criminal, because that is what a soldier would have been responsible to do.
42:03: But in this case, when we see the word violence, we are so our modern thinking automatically goes violence always means bad violence.
42:12: But in this sense, violence is the idea of a shakedown, the mistreatment of others.
42:19: And I think that is the line there.
42:22: And I think it is an important distinction to be made.
42:25: And it is handy to be able to pull up this stuff just like that.
42:28: I pull it up and look at it and see now the one that often I have to deal with.
42:33: And I will be honest to say this is probably the most difficult one is the words of Jesus in Matthew chapter five.
42:42: So if you want to look at this with me, turn the other cheek.
42:48: Yeah, and I know how I answer it.
42:51: But before I don't want to jump right into my answer, I want to look at it sort of from the perspective of how would the pacifist interpret it, because the passage is Matthew five, thirty eight and thirty nine.
43:06: You have heard it was said an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth.
43:10: But I say to you, do not resist the one who is evil.
43:13: But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
43:20: And you ever had a person say this to you? You can't do karate because you're not teaching people to turn the other cheek.
43:26: Well, that's one of their go to arguments for sure.
43:30: And the whole verse does talk a lot about pacifism.
43:34: But to what extent it's ambiguous, I think to me, they talk about the slapping of the other cheek, they say, especially if they talk about the right cheek, that's oddly specific.
43:50: Right.
43:50: So that's a backhand.
43:51: It's an insult.
43:53: It wasn't meant to kill you or injure you.
43:56: Right.
43:57: It means to insult you.
43:59: It could be name calling is basically equivalent is let it roll off your back and don't retaliate off of minor offenses.
44:12: It's the rest of the verse, I think, that does speak a bit to you in regards to not resisting an evil person.
44:19: It talks about if they sue you for your tunic, give them extra, give them your cloak, whatever you want to take, you take it.
44:28: If for some reason, and I don't know the context of the walking of the mile, if they tell you to walk a mile, walk to.
44:35: If they force one of the translation says, if they force you to walk a mile, walk to.
44:44: And I'm not sure what all that necessarily means and where the line in the sand is.
44:49: Sometimes analogies are used or parables, and sometimes it can be hard to interpret, but it does very much feel like a very pacifist lifestyle.
45:01: Although it never implied that your life was ever in danger in this commandment either.
45:07: It doesn't say if your life's in danger, fall on the sword.
45:13: Yeah.
45:14: What do you think? Well, I'm going to give you a few thoughts, and I want to reference two other passages because they all would be used in the same vein.
45:23: So we've looked at Matthew five, 38, 39.
45:25: And then first Thessalonians five, 15 says, see that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.
45:34: And then Romans 12, 17, repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all if possible.
45:41: So far as it depends on you live peaceably with all beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God.
45:49: For it is written vengeance is mine.
45:50: I will repay, says the Lord.
45:51: To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him.
45:53: If he is thirsty, give him something to drink for by doing so, you will heat burning coals on his head.
45:58: Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
46:01: And I know some guys who would say overcome evil with good marksmanship, but that's not the right way to.
46:09: But so looking at these passages, and we always want to follow what's typically referred to as the concept of the analogy of scripture or Latin analogium scriptorum.
46:20: The idea of looking at scripture and comparing scripture with scripture, because the Bible is it's easy to take passages out of context, and it's easy if we only have one verse to only see what that verse is saying in regard without regard to the rest.
46:38: And so in Matthew five, Jesus is telling us, you know, he says an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth.
46:43: Well, he's quoting scripture there too.
46:45: He's quoting from the Old Testament law.
46:47: And he's quoting from a law that was specifically given to judges.
46:52: Judges were told to judge with equity.
46:54: Therefore, if an eye is taken, an eye is to be demanded.
46:59: That's the way justice is justice works.
47:02: You know, if someone comes and steal something from you and they are taken before the judge, the judge would require that they give it back.
47:10: And that's the idea of an eye for an eye.
47:12: If they've spent it, like, let's say they stole your money and the money has been spent.
47:15: Well, then they would owe you a debt.
47:17: And, you know, there used to be a thing called debtor's prison where a debtor could actually go to prison because he owed a debt to someone.
47:23: And the idea of an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth is simply the concept of how judgment is to be made.
47:30: Judgment is to be made with regard to equity or just justice.
47:38: But Jesus says, but I say to you, do not resist the one who is evil.
47:42: Is Jesus talking about the judge or is he now talking about individuals? I think he is switching from the judge and the judge who has to give an equitable, just ruling.
47:53: And he's talking about individuals who I believe.
47:55: And again, I base this upon some additional reading that I've done in the past.
48:00: I believe that Jesus is now showing that people had taken this command, eye for an eye and tooth for tooth.
48:08: And they had taken that from the judges and used that on the individual level and made that the principle for life.
48:14: So let's say you went into your karate class and you said to your students, every time a man looks at you cross, you whack him outside the head.
48:23: Or every time a man touches you, you touch him back.
48:27: First of all, I know you'd never say that.
48:29: I know you would always give your students an encouragement not to be violent back.
48:34: But the idea was the, and you've met people like this.
48:38: I know you have.
48:38: You've met people who violence is their go-to response.
48:43: And Jesus said, you've heard it said an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth.
48:47: But I say to you, don't let that be the way you are.
48:49: Don't resist the person's evil.
48:52: Don't be the person who is responding evil for evil.
48:56: But instead, if anyone slaps you on the cheek, be willing to, as you said, let it roll off you.
49:02: They're not trying to kill you.
49:03: And I do believe you're right.
49:05: It is the insult.
49:06: And then if you compare that with the first Thessalonians and the Romans passage, he, Paul specifically addresses the issue of vengeance.
49:14: And I do think that vengeance is in view when Jesus refers to how we deal with evil people.
49:21: Because if we look at the Romans passage specifically, it talks about if you're hungry, if you're, if your enemy's hungry, feed him.
49:27: If he's thirsty, give him something to drink.
49:29: What he's saying is you've garnered an enemy somehow, and we all have enemies.
49:34: You have an enemy somehow.
49:35: How are you to treat this person? Are you to treat this person vengefully? Are you to treat this person hatefully? Or are you to show love to this person? Because God showed love to you who were once his enemy.
49:45: We were once enemies of God because of sin.
49:47: God showed us love through Christ.
49:49: And if God is able to show us love through Christ, then we can show love to our enemies, even though they are still our enemies.
49:57: But that doesn't mean that I offer a cupcake to the man who's raping my wife.
50:03: Again, that would be a terrible misuse of that passage.
50:07: And that's the point that I try to pull in.
50:10: I say, I think there is a sense in which the timing of the action is important.
50:16: And I want to show you a passage that I use in regard to this very thing.
50:20: When I say timing, because people think it's a cop-out.
50:22: It's not a cop-out.
50:24: Listener, if you're listening, I encourage you to turn with me.
50:26: And James, if you have your Bible open or your program open, go to Exodus 22.
50:32: And I know this is Old Testament for people freak out.
50:34: I know this is Old Testament, but it's a principle.
50:37: It's not.
50:37: This isn't about war.
50:39: This is about the principle of timing.
50:43: Exodus 22, verse two says this.
50:47: If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no blood guilt for him.
50:54: But if the sun has risen on him, there shall be blood guilt for him.
50:59: He shall surely pay.
51:00: If he has nothing, he shall be sold for his theft.
51:04: Okay, so here's what this passage is referring to.
51:08: If a thief breaks into my house in the middle of the night and he's struck so that he dies, I am not guilty of murder because I did what is the most natural thing to do in my home, protect my home.
51:25: However, when it talks about the sun rising, what that's referring to is time passing.
51:30: If a man breaks into my house and he steals something of mine and he gets away and time has passed, the sun has risen, and now I go and find him, maybe I go get James Benford and I get Kyle Scott and I get a couple of my tough karate buddies together and we decide to go take care of this man.
51:47: We're going to go take care of business.
51:49: At that moment, we're no longer engaging in self-protection.
51:52: We're engaging in vengeance.
51:54: And if we do that, that we would be just like our law would say, if a man breaks into my house and I defend myself and he dies, I'm not guilty.
52:02: But if he gets away and I go out and get on my four-wheeler and I chase him down and I beat him to death with an Arnie stick, I'm going to go to big boy prison for a long time because I didn't engage in self-protection.
52:14: I engaged in an act of vengeance.
52:17: And I do think that timing does make a difference.
52:22: And I think I'm using a biblical principle here, the biblical principle of when does the action happen? How am I motivated? Am I motivated by protection? Am I motivated by safety for my family? Or am I motivated by vengeance in regard to how someone has attacked him in the difference between vengeful retaliation and personal protection is a mile wide because you, and that's really what oftentimes lawyers have to determine.
52:48: Lawyers have to determine, is this personal protection or is this vengeful retaliation? Because here's the thing, you know, this, you ever heard of what people call the verification shot? No.
53:00: What's that mean? Well, when I'm teaching handguns and I teach people, you know, if, if you have to draw and use a handgun to defend yourself and you have to shoot, I say, once the threat has stopped, don't keep shooting.
53:14: I say the idea that you just keep shooting to verify that they're dead.
53:19: That's not, you don't want, especially if you don't walk over and start shooting the guy once he's down, because you're going to go to prison.
53:24: You're going to go because you're no longer under the threat of his, if you pull your gun, you shoot and the guy falls, stop, don't keep shooting it.
53:33: And I've heard some people say, no, just empty the clip.
53:35: Don't do that.
53:36: That is a double tap, right? It's a, it's a zombie precaution, double tap.
53:42: Yeah.
53:42: Because the idea is if you walk over to a guy who's laying down, who's no longer a threat and you put a bullet in his body at that point, you are now no longer defending yourself.
53:53: You are now engaging in an act of violence that is unnecessary.
53:58: And it's, and, and, and, and you're going to go to jail if you do that, if they can prove and they easily can prove it because they can prove where the shot came from.
54:06: You shot him.
54:06: He was laying down.
54:07: He was no longer a threat.
54:09: And so, you know, and there is a new Testament equivalent to this passage.
54:14: I want to show you this one too, a new Testament equivalent passage, because again, the Exodus 22, somebody could say, oh, that's old Testament.
54:19: That doesn't apply to us.
54:21: And, and, and while I would take some issues with that, you know, the old Testament does apply to us, but it applies to us differently.
54:27: We're no longer under the old covenant.
54:28: We're under the new covenant, but in the new covenant, Jesus says this, and this is in Matthew 12, 29, he's referring, and I have to give this because in context, he's referring to the devil.
54:42: So, so, so when I say this, if somebody may come out and say, oh, well, that was the devil, he's talking about the devil, but the principle that Jesus is using is, I think the same principle of Exodus 22 too.
54:52: He says this, he says, how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man, then indeed he may plunder his house.
55:02: Jesus is there talking about Satan.
55:04: He's talking about Satan's house being divided.
55:06: He says, you can't, you know, Satan can't be against Satan.
55:09: And, you know, you would have to first bind Satan.
55:11: The idea is that context, but Jesus uses the, uses the illustration of a strong man.
55:17: And what does he say here? A strong man protects his home.
55:22: Yeah.
55:22: And that's similar in Luke 11.
55:25: I had referenced a similar analogy, the strong man, fully armed guards, his own house, his possessions are safe.
55:34: That would be a great verse for the back of a shirt.
55:36: That would be a great verse for a back of a karate shirt.
55:39: When a strong man, fully armed guards, his own house, his goods are safe.
55:44: And that's what we're supposed to do.
55:46: So I think that what we have to step back.
55:50: And as we begin, we've been doing this for almost an hour now.
55:52: So we begin to draw to a close, but I think we have to step back and, and look at a few things from, from a very simple perspective.
56:01: Are we acting in vengeance or are we acting in protection? And if we are acting in protection, what levels are we comfortable going to? You mentioned earlier, make sure you're dead bolts.
56:14: I forget how you said it, but you said something about dead bolts.
56:16: Praying to God that your dead bolts work.
56:18: Yeah.
56:19: Pray to God.
56:20: If I say this, if a person has a dead bolt, then they're already resisting the evil person.
56:28: If you take, do not resist an evil person to its extreme that we're all supposed to be gerbils in the world of snakes, then just put screen doors on your house and expect that your wife's going to get raped, that your children are going to get slaughtered and that you're going to have no life.
56:42: But you do have a dead bolt because you do believe in some level of personal protection.
56:47: Yeah, I agree.
56:48: And they, they, they certainly subscribe to the thought that it's okay to run.
56:55: It's okay to hide.
56:56: That's resisting.
56:58: You know, if you're holding church in secret because you're being oppressed, that's, that's evading, that's, that's resisting oppression and the evil, right? Um, well, one of the other things that they'll also say is, um, you know, when they talk about, uh, one of the, the other verses that we would use to defend, um, our position was that, uh, uh, is it, uh, the, uh, John 15, um, verse 14, uh, greater love, uh, has no one than this, uh, that he laid down his life for his friends.
57:34: Um, and, and they would say that at the most, what we're supposed to do is just simply get in the way.
57:43: So if somebody is here trying to shoot somebody, if you stand in their way, they'll just stop shooting after they've killed you.
57:51: That's how you protect your friends.
57:53: That's how you protect your family.
57:55: And that's kind of their, their view on the interpretation of that lay down your life.
57:59: It doesn't mean fight back.
58:01: It means get in the way.
58:03: Um, which I think is, um, I mean, they have an argument, but it's, uh, it's illogical.
58:10: Um, at least based on, you know, our experience, I think, um, that's not going to save anybody.
58:17: Yeah.
58:17: Do you agree? Yeah, I don't, I, I absolutely, I, I, um, there, there's a lot more that could be said about methodology for protection, but just standing in front of the shooter so that he shoots you and moves on doesn't seem like a, uh, a very wise, uh, way of doing it.
58:40: And again, I think that there are certain people who believers who are gifted in, in, in understanding ways to keep people safe.
58:52: Are you familiar with, um, uh, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman? No.
58:59: Well, he's a brother in Christ.
59:01: I've had the opportunity to have lunch with him.
59:03: He is, uh, nationally known.
59:05: Um, I believe he was a ranger army ranger, and now he goes and gives talks to police and other organizations about, uh, about surviving a deadly encounter because he's been in many of them himself and he's written books.
59:22: His, his books are in fact, the title of his books is on killing and on combat.
59:26: That's the two, that's the two books that he's got other ones, but his, the books that he's claimed to fame on combat and on killing.
59:32: And he talks about, um, what it's like to face a life-threatening situation and how your body responds to a life-threatening situation.
59:40: Well, what got my attention with him is he now speaks at churches and he speaks at churches to talk about church shootings and things like that and the danger.
59:48: And he talks about the, the, you know, the, the raising up of warriors for the, for, for protection and the, and the, and the virtuous, the godly warrior.
59:59: And, um, that it's just something that we've gotten away from that.
01:00:03: We have, we don't see a warrior as a good thing, but a warrior is a blessing to a people.
01:00:09: Um, when he stands and defends those people that, that, that, that was, that's what he was built to do.
01:00:15: That's what he was created to do.
01:00:16: That's what God has gifted him to do is, is to, is to stand and be a warrior.
01:00:21: And, and I think about, um, that as a, uh, you know, looking back at that church where that guy stood up and shot, he was a warrior, that guy in that moment, he protected those people.
01:00:34: And, um, that was an act of benevolent violence.
01:00:37: And, uh, and so, uh, are there always going to be Christians who disagree? Absolutely.
01:00:44: Are there going to be times where perhaps we are not, you know, not doing everything perfectly? Absolutely.
01:00:53: I, I'm not in any way saying I, I, I have all the answers, but when it comes down to my responsibility as a father, a husband, and a shepherd of the church, and I'm called to be a pastor of the church, I have to think about along with protecting them from bad theology, protecting them from bad teaching, protecting my, my, my children's virtue and things like that.
01:01:12: I also have to think about the fact that there are evil men who want to do evil to them.
01:01:17: And I am the wall of protection that God has placed in their life.
01:01:21: When my daughter wakes up at night and she's afraid because, you know, a boy at school told her that there's ghosts and she, some, for some reason believes that there's a ghost in her bedroom when she runs, she should run to me knowing that I'm going to protect her.
01:01:36: And when I teach the threefold role of a man, I said, a man has threefold role in his home.
01:01:43: He has to be the pastor of his home, leading his people in the word of God.
01:01:46: He has to be the provider of his home, providing for his family.
01:01:49: And he has to be the protector of his home that no one or nothing is able to, to come into his home without first coming through him.
01:01:57: And again, a strong man protects his home.
01:02:01: So I think that, again, I know we've talked about a lot of scripture and I hope this has been beneficial.
01:02:08: I hope you've been, I've been encouraged by it.
01:02:10: I hope.
01:02:12: Yeah, I think we make a lot of arguments, at least for the case of defending our family and righteous violence.
01:02:20: It's always, it's just always a challenge when they have so many verses that they may or may not be taking out of context.
01:02:26: And most of the defenses is, you know, at least in regards to the scripture that I've found is almost like, what didn't they say is kind of, I'm like, well, it's, it's okay because they didn't say not to use violence.
01:02:43: And, and so that, that's just been one of the challenges and it's, hopefully, you know, our hearts and, you know, the Holy Spirit guides us and our understanding of the scripture and understanding what's wrong and right.
01:02:57: But I always want to do my due diligence for sure.
01:03:00: And, you know, I will say that this world, as we continue to become squishier and squishier men, not just physically, you know, but, you know, emotionally and, and, and we're not, we're not facing the hard realities of what it takes to be a man.
01:03:20: And the other side of the world is becoming more corrupt, more sick, more violent.
01:03:26: And at the same time, our churches, again, are focusing on happy, fluffy things, which, which, which there are, you know, it's very positive.
01:03:37: Jesus has, that's the good news.
01:03:39: The good news is Jesus has, you know, but, but we, we, we almost revel in that so much that we think everything's got to be happy.
01:03:50: Everything's got to be flowers, roses, you know, and honeysuckles, but it's, it's, it's not.
01:03:56: The world is the world.
01:03:58: And so we got church men becoming squishy and we got the rest of the world becoming angry, violent, and confrontational.
01:04:07: And that's not a good combination, I think.
01:04:12: Absolutely, absolutely.
01:04:13: And I would, I would give a hearty amen to the, to the softness that has made its way into the church.
01:04:19: And, you know, during the time of the revolutionary war, there were, there was what was known as the black robe regiment.
01:04:26: And that was a group of pastors who, who took to their pulpits and preached resistance to a tyrannical government.
01:04:33: They preached that the men of God should stand up and take arms.
01:04:37: And, and that's, that, that, that would be a show for another time, but, but, but what I'm saying is we have, we have reached the point where everybody thinks what it means to be a Christian is to be weak.
01:04:49: And there's a difference between meekness and weakness.
01:04:51: There's a difference between humility and being, like you said earlier, helpless.
01:04:57: We can be humble without being helpless.
01:04:59: We can be meek without being weak.
01:05:02: And, and, and if an, if, if a dog made its way through my, let's say a wolf came from the yard and made its way into my house and attacked my children, then I would be a fool and I would be a bad father if I did not protect my children.
01:05:18: And then we could say, there are men out there who are just even more dangerous than a wolf.
01:05:24: And we are the, we are the shepherds of the home whose responsibility it is to comfort the sheep and to fight off the wolves.
01:05:32: Amen.
01:05:34: James, thank you for being here today.
01:05:35: And thank you for offering up some really good opportunity to answer these questions.
01:05:39: And I hope it's been an encouragement to you.
01:05:40: I know it's been an encouragement to have you on.
01:05:42: Maybe one day we'll have you on again.
01:05:43: We'll talk about something else.
01:05:45: And, and thank you listener for being with us today.
01:05:48: Thank you for listening to this episode.
01:05:51: And I, hopefully it's been an encouragement to you again.
01:05:54: Thank you, James.
01:05:55: Thank you so much and have a good day.
01:05:57: You too.
01:05:57: Thank you for listening to Conversation with a Calvinist.
01:06:00: My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.
01:06:03: May God bless you.
01:06:37: May God be with you.