April 23, 2013

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white. I.

Understand it one way. I read it one way. He reads it another way. Is that it then did we just like part ways? Or do you take the bread of wine and just Christ hold us together? Is there something that trumps whatever differences we have like that's the question.

Like literally you're asking and this is part of like sort of the bull that really really really pushes people away is when you have a particular conviction and all of a sudden Your orthodoxy or your faithfulness to Jesus is all of a sudden called into question so when I get an interview like this and It inevitably comes around to whether I'm not ever and you didn't say whether or not a Christian but it's the same like Have you gone liberal?

Have you given up? You haven't said what about. Like the you you haven't you like asked a series of questions of Andrew about what about this? What about this? What about this it comes back to me. This is why so many people don't want to be a part of the church.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Bell, Andrew Wilson, and the Question of Same-Sex Relationships

Really, really, I I've been wondering for a long long time Why is it that so many people do not want be a part of church and it was all about Rob Bell. I Had missed that somehow had missed that that's Rob Bell on the interview on unbelievable with Andrew Wilson Justin Briley's program in London and I was absolutely Offended I literally was as a Christian.

Offended not just because I had to bleep out his use of BS. That's just being edgy. You know when you're emergent just being edgy using profanity like that just throw it out there for the fun of it. Just see who you can offend but That was not what was offensive to me.

I mean that that's just childish. I'm not that that's I that didn't even really figure into my thinking. What absolutely amazed me is when they finally at the very end of the interview got around to what? needed to be discussed and Bell had obviously Wasted most of the time making sure that we are talking about other things.

I I didn't turn in I mean, I'm sure Andrew Wilson's a wonderful guy, but I didn't tune in to listen to anything about Andrew Wilson's book. But that's what Rob Bell turned it into when they finally got around to addressing the real issue.

Here's Rob Bell and he is all of a sudden the victim oh He's such a victim he's been asked direct Biblical questions, and he's the victim and that's why people don't want to be part of the church because you ask me questions and I'm like grow up.

Grow a spine. Oh my goodness. Are you kidding me? I? Was absolutely amazed. At this man's behavior. Why does anyone look at this man as a Christian leader? Why? Well, he wrote some books and they sold a lot well, so it's Bart Ehrman.

But you're not looking to him as a Christian leader. Are you oh? My goodness just amazing to me. We live in a day where we need clarity of expression and clarity of thought and Clarity of proclamation and if you want an example of God's judgment, we've got Rob Bell.

Amazing. Absolutely positively amazing to listen to the last part of This particular program which we're going to do today on the dividing line and I've Hopefully we'll have enough time toward the end also play a a call from Catholic answers live that James Swan sent me I found very very interesting though.

It'll be quite a shift of topic but as I said the first half the interview. Okay, fine, whatever I was thinking about switching back to listening to some Hadith or something during that.

Finally finally. The real questions began. It sounds I got the same. We can move on. I got. Wait a minute. Actually, I'm. I apologize.

I apologize. Oh, I'm not playing that. Yeah. No, this is this is this is a good section to start.

Well the sense that you were saying before I thought that's what you'd effectively what you'd written up.

No, absolutely not. I mean the book. I was simple now this is this was.

The the way they got into a discussion of the homosexual issue. Was going back a little bit to love wins and this is just this is the one section to play. Everybody knows what love wins was about. But one of the things that I find offensive about Rob Bell is he cannot answer a direct question.

He will teach things but then when you challenge him, well, I don't know that I was really saying that. Remember the video I did years ago when I respond to one of his his silly NUMA videos where he Collapsed on on all the stuff about how Jesus is similar to Mithra and all the rest of stuff, which is just pure.

It's silliness. It's ridiculous. It's been refuted forever and So you challenge him you refute what he says and then it's like well, I thought I really say that they would really know. You know, I mean Jeff prove.

He won't answer a question directly and honestly, I cannot stand that in someone and.

So here's here's an example that before I thought that's what you'd what you'd written up. No, absolutely not.

I mean in the book I was simply saying to people who have never heard any of this There is a strain of Christian faith that says give it enough time. Well, God will win everybody over given enough time every single person will eventually say oh, you're not committed to that belief.

I don't do somebody know that I'm not aware of. Do we have videotape? Do we have evidence of how exactly it pans out? My interest is in this tradition. Has a number of different perspectives on how that pans out.

That's my observation would be. Lots of people right now seem to say no, we've all seen that correct. But you and so I would assume that after death you think some of you still have that freedom to say no.

At that point Justin sort of shut it down and Didn't want to continue with that but So, what was he saying in love wins if you can write an entire book and Honest intelligent well-read people Still have no earthly idea what your position actually is.

Then you ain't much of an author and this whole interview started off about oh, you know, you know. It does all these videos all this stuff about you know creating, you know, how's the creative process and all this stuff and I'm sorry.

I'm an author too. And it's just hard work and you don't say I'm in the middle of the creative process dear. No, you just get your work done. So anyways, he was playing around that then they finally Got around to the important stuff.

I don't think it's you know. A lot of people are aware that you've recently made statements on gay marriage and gay relationships. And and although that wasn't explicit in the book. It then suddenly dawned on me as I read that with that in mind that you've sort of affirmed.

You know.

Monogamous lifelong partnerships and so on. Assuming Justin's gonna listen to this Justin you sounded nervous like you were afraid to. He was going to get up and bolt out of Justin isn't it? Nice to have people in the studio who are not going to bolt out on you if they're actually asked meaningful questions.

I.

Think it says something that this might be an area where you see God ahead of where a lot of the church is as far as you're concerned that that that We're being called now to move from M to N in this area perhaps is that kind of what you're hinting at is do you believe that that this this is an area where actually God's ahead of the church that Affirming Same-sex partnerships is actually a God thing and that we will eventually all get to see that in in the course of time.

I think it will happen. I don't know.

You know what there's with Rob Bell. There are way too many pauses. We are going to 1 .2 speed. Okay. Sorry I just I just got a Guy to pick it up a little bit or we're never get it done. So it's gonna be a little bit faster.

Just so you know, I like to mention that I try to remember to mention that every time but anyway.

You're asking several different questions there but. Yes, I think it's time for the church to acknowledge that we have brothers and sisters who are gay and want to share their life with someone. And this is a part of life in the modern world and that's how it is and the cultural consciousness has shifted and.

And That's this is how the world is and. That what's happening for a lot of people is they want nothing to do with God and Jesus. Because they can't see beyond that particular issue.

By the way theology matters. Everybody outside of grace wants nothing to do with God and Jesus. Hello everybody. It's called being a rebel sinner. Theology matters, you know. Believe that. Well, you know, you see that see the result.

You're seeing the result right now and what Rob Bell is saying. So is God ahead. I hadn't thought about it in those terms of a head or behind. Okay, but I think it is time for the church to acknowledge.

This is how the world is.

Wow, this is how the world is folks. That's that's that's our job in the church is to go this that that's how the world Is so we just need to change we believe all along because that's that's up the way the world is.

That's always how Christians are right? Just whatever. And things have changed or at least we're more honest about them now.

This is up to this point. There's been a lot of agreement between you guys, but I suspect you take a different view on this.

Well, can I ask some questions? I don't know. It's the grounding for that. Yeah, that's. I mean that I'm fine. Interesting. Yeah, so would you say. I don't think that a guy having sex with a guy is sinful.

Is that a bad question I.

Mean if you're gonna call yourself a Christian leader, and if you're yeah I mean he's he's said before this that they have these things where Christian leaders come and They study with him and they have these weekends and they actually do wakeboarding or Something surfing or whatever.

I don't know it was toward the beginning of the interview. But if you if you're pretending to be a leader amongst Christian leaders, is it really difficult to? You know since you've come out and made statements on something to do you think it is sinful for One man to have sex with another man.

Is that really a bad question? Is that is that mean? As you heard Rob Bell is not overly happy about it. I would begin with I.

Am for monogamy. I am for fidelity. I am for commitment now.

You know what? I immediately started doing when he said that while I was writing. I was listening to this while writing as normal. I was on the bent yesterday and I'm so glad I was. Why. Why I started going why?

Why are you from for monogamy. Because monogamy. Faithfulness? Commitment. There's there's biblical stuff behind that. But. You're just gonna go. Well. It's your interpretation. What about a person who doesn't think that monogamy is the thing I mean.

There's lots of people that I know lots of Mormons that argue for polygamy and what about bisexuals? I mean the culture is going that way right so the culture is saying that's okay, too. And so you're wired that way and and so you need to have a man and a woman and so so it can't be monogamy.

It has to be at least bigamy in a sense. I guess if you have three partners two other partners, however, you'd describe that anyway. Why not? You know these guys seem to think that they can just get away, you know Andrew Sullivan.

I'm I'm for monogamy why. Well because if you have polygamy then you have one guy has all the women really. And that's not how it works. That's the only thing is is is so that one guy doesn't have all the women.

That's the only reason that you're for monogamy. Seriously.

Amazing. And I think the world needs more of that, and I am. I think that promiscuity is dangerous. Why? Why and? Promiscuity is destructive. Why. And some people are gay and want to share their life with someone.

Why and. They should be able to and that's how the world is and we should affirm that.

Why I? Mean This is just stream of consciousness. Throw statements out don't substantiate them don't provide a biblical foundation. Just throw them out there and say well I think this I think that and and in the end we should all just take the Lord's Supper together and just sing kumbaya.

And don't ask me why. Because that's beep. If you ask me, it's beep. That's that's.

And we should affirm monogamy fidelity and commitment both gay and straight.

Biblically there is no such thing as Gay Fidelity and commitment biblically because the Bible defines What the word marriage means and what its direct object is. It is a covenant? With specific roles for husband and Wife not husband husband and wife and wife.

You are changing the meaning of the word. You're changing the covenant if you changed the covenant That describes the work of the triune God at the cross it brings about redemption and stuck Michael the Archangel in and Bob the plumber.

You would change the nature of the covenant so you can't. He's he's just like everybody else. It's just words are things you can plug into different places and as long as it sounds good. That's okay.

Whether that changes the meaning doesn't matter. Is that a yes or a no. As in do you believe it? So what I'm trying to get my head around is do you think that Henry Wilson goes?

Look Rob Bell doesn't answer questions, and he seems to have fun with it. He seems to think this is a big game. Let's see how I can not answer this question. Let's see how I can bend categories. Let's see how I can just annoy people who actually want to know what the truth is of what I'm saying.

Let's let's let's try that think it's sinful.

But we need to lump it because the world's changed or do you think it's not sinful and if so Do you think the Bible doesn't think it's simple in that Jesus didn't think it was simple. That's.

Straightforward. I Mean there you go. Now let's watch as he pulls out all the standard leftist liberal excuses.

On this subject I'm not aware that Jesus mentions it. I think you have about five verses that can be read a number of different ways. How many times we heard that.

Thousands by now, I mean okay, maybe not thousands, but hundreds by now. We've all heard it. I might be five verses. I don't think Jesus mentioned it. And How many times have I said. If you hear anyone who says Jesus did not address the subject homosexuality you're listening to.

A person is biblically illiterate or or deceptive. One to two biblically illiterate and.

There is a large Christian tradition that sees this as. There are scriptures that speak to this. I don't think you make an overwhelming the case against it.

So but it's your position, which I know is you know yeah, so your position would be no it's not sinful, right? It's not sinful for a guy to have sex with a guy. That's not a problem for God. It never has been.

It's just at times He had to move people towards forward in history. That's not a problem if you understand Paul properly understand Jesus properly. They genuinely didn't have a problem with guys having sex with guys.

I'm just trying to is that what you believe because I don't want to critique. I think we don't have. I think Paul had.

His answer that question tied up in worship of all sorts of other deities. I think it was all one giant hairball in Paul's day.

So Paul's answer is because. Again, this is the well Romans one is actually about worship of pagan deities. I mean this is all the leftist stuff, which we have shredded so many times before. Impossible to defend Biblically.

He knows it. He's still throwing it out there because he knows he can deflect anything by just wandering off and saying things that don't really make any sense anyways, but. One giant hairball. That this is the best we have to say to our culture today is one giant hairball in Paul's thinking.

Really.

Utterly amazing. And that for him There was the temple and there was a temple of other gods who were opposed to the God of Israel and that went on in There. So I think when Paul was talking about this issue for him, it's tied up in all sorts of idolatry.

It's all sorts of rejection of God. So I would want to like pull the various issues apart. I don't think they said that you had.

Then you got that if Paul is looking at there's two gay men in the church in Corinth. They want they're having sex together. They're not worshiping idols. Paul's gonna say that's great guys go for it.

Unless is that your is that what you believe is true of Paul?

I think Paul didn't have that cultural framework or conception operating around him. I think he had men and boys. I think he had temples. I did not think he was talking about what we're talking about in 2013, which was two committed people of a same-sex relationship.

Baloney.

Absolute baloney. This has been taken apart over and over. This is standard surface level a A-historical rhetoric nothing more. It's empty. It has been taken apart over and over again. There's nothing new under the Sun.

There were all sorts of quote-unquote. Committed relationships. Not committed in the sense of a biblical marriage, which is a husband and a wife together for life. But. Long-term relationships between men.

Rarely rarely in the sense of what we would envision as actual marriage where you save yourself for someone and then you're married and they're the only person you're with. No. Not not like that. But there were men who lived with other men and stayed in that relationship for many years.

This was well known. Paul was not an idiot. This is not something that developed over the past ten years. This is just empty rhetoric. From someone who's not done his homework. Or he has and is a false teacher in the church and that's what I think.

I think Rob Bell is a false teacher in the church. He is a pseudodelphoi and needs pseudodelphos. He needs to be identified for what he is. This has been known for a long time. No, no, no surprise here.

But There are a lot of people who still refer to him. Otherwise, okay, so you don't think there's any you don't. So your position be this is not simple. This is righteous. This is a good thing. God says way to go.

I'm from my throne in heaven. I'm blessing that I'm saying that's wonderful. It's not it's a beautiful thing.

The theologian corning is planting a defined sin is culpable disturbance of Shalom. So any way in which I'm guilty of destroying the Shalom that God intends for all think yeah I don't think a healthy monogamous same-sex relationship destroys or is destructive to the Shalom God intends for all things.

There there you go, there's Rob Bell a Healthy same-sex relationship. What is that? What is that? Can you show that to me in the Bible? Of course you can't. Well, it's the Bible's fault. It didn't know enough about oh, well, wait a minute.

I'm sorry You can't show me this healthy if it's healthy then God intended it that way, right? Is that why he made men as men and women as women if this was healthy? Then it would be Proper and appropriate for men to have sex with men and it would be physically possible to do so without causing damage to both of them and That's not possible.

And You know it, you know it Healthy same-sex relationship. Show that to me in the Bible. I want to see it. Show me where the Bible defines this. I've got all sorts of stuff I know What a husband and wife relationship is supposed to be about because we have Paul talking in Ephesians about Christ in the church and we have Matthew chapter 19 and we've got all sorts of stuff like that and we've also got all sorts of stuff in the Bible about bad male and female relationships and How evil men can be got all that stuff all of it Show me the healthy same-sex committed monogamous Relationships or admit.

Well, you know this Perspicuity and sufficiency of scripture thing. We really need to think we need to get rid of that. Come on. Let's just be honest. That's what really bugged me about Rob Bell. If you're gonna be a false teacher be an honest out front false teacher go all the way.

Come out and say, you know what? We've been all wrong about this Bible thing. It isn't sufficient we need to allow culture to find things I want to keep a Shell of religiosity. I'm gonna talk about Jesus.

I'm gonna talk about stuff like that. But you know, let's not worry about this Bible stuff. Okay? Don't do this. Well, you've got your reading. I've got my ring. No, you don't If you cannot read it consistently if you cannot answer questions about it consistently Then don't say you've got a reading of it.

You don't think it you don't think it's sinful.

You know, so some things are really destructive. Yeah, sure.

So so for you gay sex isn't isn't sinful at all. And if we understood the Bible property we'd all get that so actually we are. We're when Jesus talks about sexual morality from from within the heart and refers back to Leviticus 18 with all of its prohibitions.

You would say that's that's a time specific thing. That's just Jesus. Was Jesus wrong on that. Did he misunderstand what God? Forward or what's there because obviously he's just he's talking in the same passages.

He says all foods are clean but from the heart come yeah sexual morality among other things. And sexuality in the Jewish world is you read a lot about it as I have is understood. So the so for. Again, I'm trying to get you.

Would you say Paul didn't have a problem with it? So you don't you don't think Paul or Jesus were referring to any of those prohibitions from the from the Old Testament and they weren't Really talking about anything like what's in today or would you say no Jesus did say that but he was a child of Time as Paul was and therefore we can move beyond it now because the world's changed.

It's just which of those two.

That's a great question. Positions. You're in. That's a great Complicated question. Everything about war. Excuse me.

You've already blessed. Quote unquote. Same-sex unions. You've already blasphemed the Christian ordinance of marriage. And. Someone finally asks you a trick question about it. You go, huh? Oh Yes, think that one through.

I don't know. Really I'm left speechless by this kind of stuff. I shouldn't be. But I'm less speechless. I.

Think that one through. There's like it is it a question of hermeneutics or is it a question of exegesis? So is it that you and I would disagree about something? Yeah, right. About Paul or about Jesus or is.

How that fits into God's story and you'd say we go beyond that now.

But when Jesus is referring to Leviticus tied up in Leviticus is two different kinds of fabric being woven together. So you have lots of questions about Jesus understanding of Leviticus based on. Because we wait is he calling people to two different kinds of fabric and can we do that now?

And I think it's the West Wing again. It's the West Wing again. Two kinds of fabric. Rob Bell can't tell the difference between prohibitions against bestiality incest and almost homosexuality and wearing two kinds of fabric.

There you go again. So I guess we really don't know what all those commands in there about honoring and father and mother and the elderly and taking care of the poor and the. Was he really calling us all that?

I mean, come on. You might have to touch a pigskin. Really. Again, I Expect this. From pro-homosexual activists who are trying to overthrow the authority of God's Word and Change the moral teaching of of the church.

I. But this guy. Well, I guess I should expect it. I Guess I should expect it. I mean, that's just that's just where he's gone.

I think when Jesus quotes Leviticus that that's opens up a whole series of questions about exactly where in Leviticus we say that's timeless. That's not timeless. That's cultural. It's not culturally bound.

That's a whole longer discussion.

Well, yeah, but when he talks about sexual immorality, it's quite that in that sense I'm just saying that you know, Jesus is understand as a Jewish first century Jews. I'm saying yeah. It's morality is Torah shaped, right?

So he he has a view of what is and isn't acceptable. So when he says that's one of the evils that comes from the heart. He he's not he's not whistling in the dark. He's not saying that in a vacuum. People his heroes understand him.

Matthew John Paul understands. I disagree with the way you're understanding pause use of the words and as well. But and we probably won't get time to that.

We are running out of time just in this section folk and so that one of the concerns you voiced is well. Okay, there was a break there and now they're coming back. I like a lot of what you're saying here Rob.

But what does it look like practically and what are some of the maybe? The differences we might have about how that works out. We've obviously identified one pretty clearly here that you take a very different view on Rob to a legitimacy of Christians engaging in homosexuality.

Rob says, you know that boat has sailed kind of thing. We live in a culture and we've got to affirm What is good, you know people saying together? People. Being with one person and so on. For you though the Bible presumably is clear on this Andrew that that is not part of what it means to live a Christian life and.

So for you. Do you feel in some way that Rob is selling people short if that's not kind of the answer that he comes to if that? Issue is raised at some point in what it means to be a Jesus follower. Yeah, I do.

Because I think it's a misunderstanding to me. It represents a misunderstanding of new creation. I think it is to go back to the garden and see one man one woman permanent faithful exclusive other. Different from one another you go all the way through Moses all the way through the Old Testament.

What it says about same-sex relations not about gay people love gay people lots and lots and lots of dead. Just we baptize number of Gay men in my in our church recently. It's just wonderful. But each one of them is saying but now when I get baptized I die to the old me and I rise again to a new Me.

That's Christ shaped this eschatologically informed and transformed. I never might not use that language. A resurrection life, which is actually a completely different type of creature. Which means that a lot of the desires that I that I have had a lot of the things which I've wanted to do.

I like Paul did certainly in the season. He wrote one Corinthians and like Jesus did I put on hold sexual desires? I say actually I die to a lot of the things I want in order to follow Christ. That's what it means to me to rise again to new life.

And I do that as per Jesus's comments about sexual morality revelations comes about sexual morality. Paul's comments about us in a coy tie. And Malachy which are these two words for the active and passive partners in homosexual sex and?

This is going right by rather quickly again. Good good stuff here from Andrew Wilson. He was just talking about us in a coy tie and Malachy and in first Corinthians 6 and That's in reference to both partners in in male homosexual sex, etc, etc.

Good stuff going on here. Notice what he's saying is look there are people who experience same-sex attraction when they are committed to Christ. They are willing to die to the old self. That doesn't mean that the attractions go away.

But the attractions are given over to God Recognized for what they are. Just like a person who experiences Love for alcohol to excess and drunkenness love for drugs love for power money adultery you name it.

A person gives all of that up in the in the act of surrendering to Christ and Here he's saying look we've had people who have come to Christ in our fellowship and what they're saying is Even if I continue to experience these things I have died to my old self and I will live to Christ and that's what he's saying and That we need to recognize the existence of those than the church experience these things.

But the only ones the only ones of those people that Christians can honor are those who do not try to change Christianity to fit their predilections.

But are willing to be changed. By the faith. Rather than trying to change the faith. And very in Romans 1 and elsewhere. And and so you we look and say what is what is Christ shaped new creation. Look like.

And we've got as I say gay guys. And our church and women as well. They've said for me I know dying to my old life and being risen again to new life in Christ means dying to all the acts of the flesh.

Including some of the sexual things that yes I wanted to do them just like lots of people want to have sex with lots of people. Some people might want to have sex With three or four people simultaneously, but that doesn't mean I'm okay to do that.

It means that I just like anybody else greed or desires to slander or to swindle or any number of other sins that we just Say those things die with me. I repent and I get baptized. And I suppose that for me to to not put that in front of somebody is at risk of Saying you can you can have the kingdom you can inherit the kingdom.

If but if it costs too much, we'll just we'll just lower the asking price until we get.

Lowering the the bar if as it were I mean, I know I've heard you talk about the cost of discipleship Rob. But for you this particular issue isn't one that's kind of an issue in discipleship as far as you're concerned.

This isn't the big issue for you correct of what I mean not notice now notice.

Bell is now getting mad. He's now getting angry. You can tell His his his answers become brief. He doesn't want to engage. Wilson has done a very good job in laying out a biblical perspective on this and Wilson cannot engage.

Bell cannot engage him on that. It's very obvious. How do you how do you address Andrews concerns then that that? This is the you know. Part of what it means to be a follower of Christ is denying certain aspects of your life including if if you experience same-sex attraction that.

Acting on that has to go. You just don't see that. I've met lots of people who are gay now. Notice Wilson.

Presents Biblically based thought Biblically based ethics and morality. Listen to Bell's response. Classic example of the collapse of a former evangelical into Rob Beldam and.

Had the exact experience he's talking about. Who? Said I choose to be celibate. I choose to Not engage and they do it out of a deep sense of conviction that that can be a beautiful thing. I also have friends who have had long-term partners and and they have they have had somebody to share their life with and they're serious followers of Jesus and they're serious members of their community and they give and serve together and They don't want to live alone.

They want somebody to share their life with. They feel like wired to share their life with somebody and I don't see any reason to say to them You can't do that or or you then can't be a part of the church or you can't be a contributing member.

Doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me. There is the ultimate Authority for Rob Bell. It doesn't make any sense to me. I refuse to allow my ethics and morals to be formed by supernatural revelation, I insist that supernatural revelation bow to my Feelings and my cultural norms.

There you go.

I mean obviously a lot of people who disagree simply with your your view on what script has to say in that regard how we Exegetic the hermeneutic perhaps that you're bringing to it will say well, it's it's like you did with love wins, Rob.

You know, you've gone liberal basically that they'll say now. Yes, Justin. He's gone liberal. I just mean to know what what it is about that makes you feel confident that that this isn't just Rob Bell going liberal.

This is actually Rob Bell being true to Christ being true to the scriptures.

Well, I think the better question is what does it look like when it's lived out and I've been in lots and lots and lots of settings with lots of friends and lots of people who have same-sex relationships and.