April 23, 2013

Alpha & Omega Ministries iconAlpha & Omega Ministries

3 views

Comments are disabled.

00:13
Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.
00:19
The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
00:28
Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
00:34
This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the
00:43
United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is
00:50
James White. I understand it one way, I read it one way, he reads it another way.
00:58
Is that it then? Do we just like part ways? Or do you take the bread and wine and does
01:04
Christ hold us together? Is there something that trumps whatever differences we have? Like that's the question. Like literally you're asking, and this is part of like sort of the bulls**t that really, really, really pushes people away, is when you have a particular conviction and all of a sudden your orthodoxy or your faithfulness to Jesus is all of a sudden called into question.
01:28
So, when I get an interview like this, and it inevitably comes around to whether I'm not a...
01:36
And you didn't say whether I'm not a Christian, but it's the same like, have you gone liberal?
01:42
Have you given up? You haven't said what about like the...
01:50
You haven't like asked a series of questions of Andrew about what about this, what about this, what about this. It comes back to me.
01:55
This is why so many people don't want to be a part of the church. Really? Really? I've been wondering for a long, long time, why is it that so many people do not want to be a part of church?
02:06
And it was all about Rob Bell. I had missed that, somehow had missed that. That's Rob Bell on the interview on Unbelievable with Andrew Wilson, Justin Briley's program in London.
02:19
And I was absolutely offended. I literally was, as a
02:24
Christian, offended. Not just because I had to bleep out his use of BS, that's just being edgy.
02:33
When you're emergent, just being edgy, using profanity like that. Just throw it out there for the fun of it, just see who you can offend.
02:38
But that was not what was offensive to me. I mean, that's just childish.
02:45
That didn't even really figure into my thinking. What absolutely amazed me is when they finally, at the very end of the interview, got around to what needed to be discussed.
02:58
And Bell had obviously wasted most of the time making sure that we were talking about other things.
03:05
I didn't turn in, I mean, I'm sure Andrew Wilson's a wonderful guy, but I didn't tune in to listen to anything about Andrew Wilson's book.
03:12
But that's what Rob Bell turned it into. When they finally got around to addressing the real issue.
03:21
Here's Rob Bell, and he is, all of a sudden, the victim.
03:28
Oh, he's such a victim. He's been asked direct biblical questions, and he's the victim.
03:36
And that's why people don't want to be part of the church, because you ask me questions. And I'm like, grow up, grow a spine.
03:48
Oh my goodness. Are you kidding me? I was absolutely amazed at this man's behavior.
03:58
Why does anyone look at this man as a Christian leader? Why? Well, he wrote some books and they sold a lot.
04:05
Well, so is Bart Ehrman, but you're not looking to him as a Christian leader, are you? Oh my goodness.
04:11
Just amazing to me. We live in a day where we need clarity of expression and clarity of thought and clarity of proclamation.
04:26
And if you want an example of God's judgment, we've got Rob Bell. Amazing. Absolutely, positively amazing to listen to the last part of this particular program, which we're going to do today on The Dividing Line.
04:43
And hopefully we'll have enough time toward the end to also play a call from Catholic Answers Live that James Swan sent me that I found very, very interesting, though it will be quite a shift of topic.
04:54
But, as I said, the first half of the interview, OK, fine, whatever. I was thinking about switching back to listening to some hadith or something during that.
05:06
Finally, finally, the real questions began. It sounds, I got the sense, we can move on.
05:12
Wait a minute. Actually, I apologize. I apologize. Oh, I'm not playing that. Yeah, no, this is this is this is a good section to start with.
05:19
I got the sense that you were saying before, I thought that's what you'd effectively what you've written. No, no, no, absolutely not. I mean, in the book,
05:24
I was simply now this is this was the way they got into a discussion of the homosexual issue was going back a little bit to Love Wins.
05:34
And this is just this is the one section to play. Everybody knows what Love Wins was about.
05:42
But one of the things that I find offensive about Rob Bell is he cannot answer a direct question. He will teach things.
05:49
But then when you challenge him, well, I don't know that I was really saying that. Remember the video I did years ago when
05:56
I responded to one of his his silly NUMA videos where he collapsed on on all the stuff about how
06:03
Jesus is similar to Mithra and all the rest of this stuff, which is just pure. It's silliness.
06:09
It's ridiculous. It's been refuted forever. And so you challenge him, you refute what he says.
06:17
And then it's like, well, I thought I really say that they would really know, you know,
06:23
I mean, you have proof. He won't answer a question directly.
06:28
And honestly, I cannot stand that in someone. And so here's here's an example that before I thought that's what you what you've written.
06:36
No, no, no, absolutely not. I mean, in the book, I was simply saying to people who have never heard any of this. There is a strain of Christian faith that says, given enough time, well,
06:44
God will win everybody over. Given enough time, every single person will eventually say, oh, well, you're not committed to that belief.
06:51
I don't. Does somebody know that? I'm not aware of. Do we have videotape? Do we have evidence of how exactly it pans out?
06:57
My interest is in this tradition has a number of different perspectives on how that pans out.
07:03
That's my observation would be lots of people right now seem to say no. We've all seen that, correct?
07:10
And so I would assume that after death, you think some of you still have that freedom to say no.
07:16
At that point, Justin sort of shut it down and didn't want to continue with that.
07:21
But so what was he saying in Love Wins? If you can write an entire book and honest, intelligent, well -read people still have no earthly idea what your position actually is, then you ain't much of an author.
07:41
And this whole interview started off about, oh, you know, you know, he does all these videos, all this stuff about, you know, creating, you know, how it's a creative process and all this stuff.
07:52
And I'm sorry, I'm an author, too. And it's just hard work. And you don't sit there and go, oh,
07:58
I'm in the middle of the creative process here. No, you just get your work done. So anyways, he was playing around that.
08:05
Then they finally got around to the important stuff. I don't think it's, you know, a lot of people are aware that you've recently made statements on gay marriage and gay relationships.
08:15
And although that wasn't explicit in the book, it then suddenly dawned on me as I read that with that in mind, that you've sort of affirmed, you know, monogamous lifelong partnerships and so on.
08:30
Assuming Justin's going to listen to this, Justin, you sounded nervous, like you were afraid he was going to get up and bolt out of the studio.
08:37
Justin, isn't it nice to have people in the studio who are not going to bolt out on you if they're actually asked meaningful questions?
08:43
I think it says something. But this might be an area where you see God ahead of where a lot of the churches, as far as you're concerned, that we're being called now to move from M to N in this area, perhaps.
08:57
Is that kind of what you're hinting at? Do you believe that this is an area where actually
09:03
God's ahead of the church, that affirming same -sex partnerships is actually a
09:10
God thing and that we will eventually all get to see that in the course of time? I think it will happen.
09:18
I don't know. You know what? With Rod Bell, there are way too many pauses. We are going to 1 .2
09:24
speed. OK, sorry. I just got to pick it up a little bit or we're never going to get it done.
09:30
So it's going to be a little bit faster. Just so you know, I like to mention that. I try to remember to mention that every time.
09:36
But anyway. You're asking several different questions there. But yes,
09:43
I think it's time for the church to acknowledge that we have brothers and sisters who are gay and want to share their life with someone.
09:50
And this is a part of life in the modern world. And that's how it is. And the cultural consciousness has shifted.
09:59
And this is how the world is. And what's happening for a lot of people is they want nothing to do with God and Jesus because they can't see beyond that particular issue.
10:09
By the way, theology matters. Everybody outside of grace wants nothing to do with God and Jesus.
10:16
Hello? Everybody. It's called being a rebel sinner. Theology matters.
10:22
Believe that. Well, you see the result. You're seeing the result right now in what
10:29
Rob Bell is saying. So is God ahead? I hadn't thought about it in those terms of ahead or behind.
10:37
But I think it is time for the church to acknowledge this is how the world is.
10:43
Wow, this is how the world is, folks. That's our job in the church is to go, that's how the world is.
10:50
So we just need to change we believe all along because that's the way the world is.
10:57
That's always how Christians are, right? And things have changed, or at least we're more honest about them.
11:04
Now, up to this point, there's been a lot of agreement between you guys, but I suspect you take a different view on this.
11:09
Well, can I ask some questions? Because what I don't know is the grounding for that statement that I find interesting. So would you say
11:15
I don't think that a guy having sex with a guy is sinful? Is that a bad question?
11:22
I mean, if you're going to call yourself a Christian leader, and if you're, I mean, he's said before this that they have these things where Christian leaders come and they study with him and they have these weekends and they actually do wakeboarding or something, surfing or whatever.
11:39
I don't know. It was toward the beginning of the interview. But if you're pretending to be a leader amongst Christian leaders, is it really difficult to, you know, since you've come out and made statements on something, do you think it is sinful for one man to have sex with another man?
11:56
Is that really a bad question? Is that mean? As you heard,
12:03
Rob Bell is not overly happy about it. I would begin with, I am for monogamy,
12:09
I am for fidelity, I am for commitment. Now, you know what I immediately started doing when he said that while I was writing?
12:14
I was listening to this while writing, as normal. I was on the bent yesterday. And I'm so glad I was.
12:22
Why? Why? I started going, why? Why are you for monogamy?
12:28
Because monogamy, faithfulness, commitment, there's biblical stuff behind that.
12:37
But you're just going to go, well, it's your interpretation. What about a person who doesn't think that monogamy is the thing?
12:44
I mean, there's lots of people. I know lots of Mormons that argue for polygamy. And what about bisexuals?
12:52
I mean, the culture is going that way, right? So the culture is saying that's OK, too. And so you're wired that way.
12:57
And so you need to have a man and a woman. And so it can't be monogamy. It has to be at least bigamy, in a sense,
13:04
I guess, if you have three partners, two other partners, however you describe that. Anyway, why not?
13:12
These guys seem to think that they can just get away. Andrew Sullivan, I'm for monogamy.
13:17
Why? Well, because if you have polygamy, then you have one guy that has all the women. Really? And that's not how it works.
13:24
The only thing is so that one guy doesn't have all the women? That's the only reason that you're for monogamy?
13:32
Seriously? Amazing. And I think the world needs more of that.
13:38
And I think that promiscuity is dangerous. Why? Why? And promiscuity is destructive.
13:46
Why? And some people are gay and want to share their life with someone. Why? And they should be able to.
13:54
And that's how the world is, and we should affirm that. Why? I mean, this is just stream of consciousness.
14:03
Throw statements out. Don't substantiate them. Don't provide any biblical foundation. Just throw them out there and say, well,
14:08
I think this. I think that. And in the end, we should all just take the Lord's Supper together and just sing Kumbaya.
14:16
And don't ask me why, because that's beep. If you ask me, it's beep.
14:24
And we should affirm monogamy, fidelity, and commitment, both gay and straight.
14:32
Biblically, there is no such thing as gay, fidelity, and commitment.
14:40
Biblically, because the Bible defines what the word marriage means and what its direct object is.
14:49
It is a covenant with specific roles for husband and wife.
14:55
Not husband and husband, and wife and wife. You are changing the meaning of the word. You're changing the covenant.
15:04
If you changed the covenant that describes the work of the triune
15:09
God at the cross, that brings about redemption, and stuck Michael the archangel in, and Bob the plumber, you would change the nature of the covenant.
15:23
So you can't. He's just like everybody else. It's just words are things you can plug into different places.
15:30
And as long as it sounds good, it's okay. Whether it changes the meaning doesn't matter. Is that a yes or a no?
15:39
As in, do you believe it? So what I'm trying to get my head around is, do you think... Andrew Wilson goes, was that a yes or a no? Look, Rob Bell doesn't answer questions.
15:52
And he seems to have fun with it. He seems to think this is a big game. Let's see how
15:58
I can not answer this question. Let's see how I can bend categories. Let's see how I can just annoy people who actually want to know what the truth is of what
16:06
I'm saying. Let's try that. Do you think it's sinful, but we need to lump it because the world's changed? Or do you think it's not sinful, and if so, do you think the
16:12
Bible doesn't think it's sinful, and that Jesus didn't think it was sinful? That's straightforward. I mean, there you go.
16:19
Now, let's watch as he pulls out all the standard leftist liberal excuses on this subject.
16:28
I'm not aware that Jesus mentions it. I think you have about five verses that can be read a number of different ways.
16:33
How many times have we heard that? Thousands by now. I mean, okay, maybe not thousands, but hundreds by now.
16:39
We've all heard it. It might be five verses. I don't think Jesus mentioned it. And how many times have I said, if you hear anyone who says
16:46
Jesus did not address the subject of homosexuality, you're listening to a person who's biblically illiterate or deceptive.
16:52
One of the two. Biblically illiterate. And there is a large
16:58
Christian tradition that sees this as there are scriptures that speak to this, but I don't think you can make an overwhelming case against it.
17:07
So, but it's your position, which I know is, you know. Yeah. So, your position would be, no, it's not sinful, right?
17:14
It's not sinful for a guy to have sex with a guy. That's not a problem for God. It never has been. It's just at times you have to move people towards forward in history.
17:20
That's not a problem. If you understand Paul properly, understand Jesus properly, they genuinely didn't have a problem with guys having sex with guys. Is that what you believe?
17:26
Because I don't want to critique or engage with a position you don't have. I think Paul had his answer to that question tied up in worship of all sorts of other deities.
17:35
I think it was all one giant hairball in Paul's day. So, Paul's answer is because, again, this is the, well,
17:45
Romans 1 is actually about worship of pagan deities. I mean, this is all the leftist stuff, which we have shredded so many times before.
17:55
Impossible to defend biblically. He knows it. He's still throwing it out there because he knows he can deflect anything by just wandering off and saying things that don't really make any sense anyways.
18:05
But one giant hairball? This is the best we have to say to our culture today?
18:16
Is one giant hairball in Paul's thinking? Really? Utterly amazing.
18:24
And that for him, there was the temple. And there was a temple of other gods who were opposed to the God of Israel.
18:30
And that went on in there. So I think when Paul was talking about this issue, for him, it's tied up in all sorts of idolatry.
18:36
It's all sorts of rejection of God. So I would want to pull the various issues apart. I don't think they had a cultural conception.
18:42
So your view would be, though, that if Paul is looking at, there's two gay men in the church in Corinth. They're having sex together.
18:47
They're not worshipping idols. Paul's going to say, that's great, guys. Go for it. We need more of that, not less. Is that what you believe is true of Paul?
18:53
I think Paul didn't have that cultural framework or conception operating around him.
18:59
I think he had men and boys. I think he had temples. I did not think he was talking about what we're talking about in 2013, which was two committed people of a same -sex relationship.
19:09
Baloney. Absolute baloney. This has been taken apart over and over.
19:16
This is standard, surface -level, ahistorical rhetoric.
19:21
Nothing more. It's empty. It has been taken apart over and over again.
19:28
There's nothing new under the sun. There were all sorts of, quote -unquote, committed relationships, not committed in the sense of a biblical marriage, which is a husband and a wife together for life, but long -term relationships between men.
19:50
Rarely, rarely in the sense of what we would envision as actual marriage, where you save yourself for someone and then you're married and they're the only person you're with.
20:02
Not like that. But there were men who lived with other men and stayed in that relationship for many years.
20:10
This was well -known. Paul was not an idiot. This is not something that developed over the past ten years.
20:20
This is just empty rhetoric from someone who's not done his homework or he has and is a false teacher in the church.
20:31
And that's what I think. I think Rob Bell is a false teacher in the church. He is a pseudo -Delphoi. And pseudo -Delphos, he needs to be identified for what he is.
20:42
This has been known for a long time. No surprise here. But there are a lot of people who still refer to him otherwise.
20:51
Okay, so you don't think there's any... So your position would be this is not sinful. This is righteous. This is a good thing.
20:57
God says, way to go. From my throne in heaven, I'm blessing that. I'm saying that's wonderful. It's a beautiful thing.
21:03
The theologian Cornelius Plantinga defines sin as culpable disturbance of shalom. So any way in which
21:08
I'm guilty of destroying the shalom that God intends for all things. I don't think a healthy monogamous same -sex relationship destroys or is destructive to the shalom
21:17
God intends for all things. There you go. There's Rob Bell. A healthy same -sex relationship.
21:24
What is that? What is that? Can you show that to me in the Bible? Of course you can't.
21:32
Well, it's the Bible's fault. It didn't know enough about... Oh, well, wait a minute. Sorry. You can't show me this healthy...
21:41
If it's healthy, then God intended it that way, right? Is that why he made men as men and women as women?
21:50
If this was healthy, then it would be proper and appropriate for men to have sex with men.
21:55
And it would be physically possible to do so without causing damage to both of them.
22:01
And that's not possible. And you know it. You know it. Healthy same -sex relationship.
22:16
Show that to me in the Bible. I want to see it. Show me where the Bible defines this.
22:22
I've got all sorts of stuff. I know what a husband and wife relationship is supposed to be about because we have
22:28
Paul talking in Ephesians about Christ in the church and we have Matthew chapter 19. We've got all sorts of stuff like that.
22:34
And we've also got all sorts of stuff in the Bible about bad male and female relationships and how evil men can be.
22:42
Got all that stuff. All of it. Show me the healthy, same -sex, committed, monogamous relationships.
22:54
Or admit, well, you know, this perspicuity, insufficiency of Scripture thing we really need to get rid of that.
23:02
Come on. Let's just be honest. That's what really bugged me about Rob Bell. He's not honest. If you're going to be a false teacher, be an honest, out front false teacher.
23:10
Go all the way. Come out and say, you know what? We've been all wrong about this
23:17
Bible thing. It isn't sufficient. We need to allow culture to define things. I want to keep a shell of religiosity.
23:26
I'm going to talk about Jesus. I'm going to talk about stuff like that. But, you know, let's not worry about this Bible stuff. Okay? Don't do this.
23:34
Well, you've got your reading. I've got my reading. No, you don't. If you cannot read it consistently, if you cannot answer questions about it consistently, then don't say you've got a reading of it.
23:48
You don't think it's sinful. Although some things are really destructive. Yeah, sure. So for you, gay sex isn't sinful at all.
23:55
And if we understood the Bible properly, we'd all get that. So actually, when Jesus talks about sexual morality from within the heart and refers back to Leviticus 18 with all of its prohibitions, you would say, that's a time -specific thing.
24:05
Was Jesus wrong on that? Did he misunderstand what God had meant? Was Jesus just a step forward?
24:11
Because obviously he's talking in the same passages. He says, all foods are clean, but from the heart come sexual morality among other things.
24:16
And sexual morality in the Jewish world, as you read a lot about it, is understood very much in terms of Leviticus 18. Yeah, yeah, it's a big deal.
24:22
So again, I'm trying to get you. Would you say Paul didn't have a problem with it? So you don't think
24:29
Paul or Jesus were referring to any of those prohibitions from the Old Testament, and they weren't really talking about anything like what we're seeing today.
24:35
Or would you say, no, Jesus did say that, but he was a child of his time, as Paul was, and therefore we can move beyond it now because the world's changed. It's just which of those two positions you're in.
24:43
That's a great, deep, thick, complicated question. I have to think about more. Excuse me? You've already blessed, quote -unquote, same -sex unions.
24:53
You've already blasphemed the Christian ordinance of marriage.
25:02
And someone finally asks you a direct question about it, and you go, huh, oh, you have to think that one through.
25:09
I don't know. Really? I'm left speechless by this kind of stuff.
25:20
I shouldn't be, but I'm left speechless. I'm going to have to think that one through.
25:27
Is it a question of hermeneutics, or is it a question of exegesis? So is it that you and I would disagree about Paul or about Jesus, or is it that you would disagree about how that fits into God's story, and you'd say we go beyond that now?
25:38
Well, when Jesus is referring to Leviticus, tied up in Leviticus is two different kinds of fabric being woven together. So you have lots of questions about Jesus' understanding of Leviticus based on, because, wait, wait, wait, wait.
25:49
Is he calling people to two different kinds of fabric, and can we do that now? It's the West Wing again.
25:56
It's the West Wing again. Two kinds of fabric. Rob Bell can't tell the difference between prohibitions against bestiality, incest, and homosexuality, and wearing two kinds of fabric.
26:09
There you go again. So I guess we really don't know what all those commands in there about honoring the father and mother and the elderly and taking care of the poor and the...
26:18
Was he really calling us to all that? I mean, come on. You might have to touch a pigskin. Really?
26:24
Again? I expect this from pro -homosexual activists who are trying to overthrow the authority of God's Word and change the moral teaching of the
26:38
Church. But this guy? Well, I guess I should expect it.
26:44
I guess I should expect it. I mean, that's just where he's gone. When Jesus quotes Leviticus, that opens up a whole series of questions about exactly where in Leviticus we say that's timeless, that's not timeless, that's cultural, that's not culturally bound.
26:55
That's a whole longer discussion. Well, yeah. But when he talks about sexual immorality, it's quite...
27:00
In that sense, I'm just saying, Jesus' understanding as a Jewish, first -century Jew, his understanding of sexual morality is Torah -shaped, right?
27:05
So he has a view of what is and isn't acceptable. So when he says that's one of the evils that comes from the heart, he's not whistling in the dark.
27:14
He's not saying that in a vacuum. People, his hearers understand him. Matthew, John, etc. Paul understands him. Obviously, I disagree with the way you're understanding
27:20
Paul's use of the words as well, and we probably won't get time to get to that. We are running out of time just in this section, folk. And so one of the concerns you voiced is...
27:27
Okay, there was a break there, and now they're coming back. I like a lot of what you're saying here, Rob, but what does it look like practically?
27:34
And what are some of the differences we might have about how that works out? And we've obviously identified one pretty clearly here, that we take a very different view on,
27:41
Rob, to the legitimacy of Christians engaging in homosexual activity. Rob says, you know, that boat has sailed kind of thing.
27:48
We live in a culture, and we've got to affirm what is good, you know, people saying together, people being with one person, and so on.
27:58
For you, though, the Bible presumably is clear on this, Andrew, that that is not part of what it means to live a
28:03
Christian life. And so for you, do you feel in some way that Rob is selling people short if that's not kind of the answer that he comes to if that issue is raised at some point in what it means to be a
28:13
Jesus follower? Yeah, I do, because I think it's a misunderstanding to me it represents a misunderstanding of new creation.
28:20
I think it's to go back to the garden and see one man, one woman, permanent, faithful, exclusive, other, you know, different from one another.
28:25
You go all the way through Moses, all the way through the Old Testament, what it says about same -sex relations. Not about gay people. Love gay people. Lots and lots of gay people.
28:31
Just we baptised a number of gay men in our church recently. It's just wonderful. But each one of them is saying, but now when I get baptised,
28:36
I die to the old me, and I rise again to a new me that's Christ -shaped, that's eschatologically informed and transformed.
28:42
I might not use that language. A resurrection life, which is actually a completely different type of creature, which means that a lot of the desires that I have had, a lot of the things which
28:50
I've wanted to do, I, like Paul did, certainly in the season he wrote 1 Corinthians, and like Jesus did, I put on hold sexual desires.
28:55
I say, actually, I die to a lot of the things I want in order to follow Christ. That's what it means for me to rise again to new life. And I do that as per Jesus' comments about sexual morality,
29:02
Revelations' comments about sexual morality, Paul's comments about arsenikoitai and malakoi, which are these two words for the active and passive partners in homosexual sex.
29:10
This is going by rather quickly. Again, good stuff here from Andrew Wilson. He was just talking about arsenikoitai and malakoi in 1
29:19
Corinthians 6, and that's in reference to both partners in male homosexual sex, etc.,
29:26
etc. Good stuff going on here. Notice what he's saying is, look, there are people who experience same -sex attraction.
29:34
When they are committed to Christ, they are willing to die to the old self. That doesn't mean that the attractions go away, but the attractions are given over to God, recognized for what they are, just like a person who experiences love for alcohol to excess and drunkenness, love for drugs, love for power, money, adultery, you name it.
29:59
A person gives all of that up in the act of surrendering to Christ.
30:08
And here he's saying, look, we've had people who have come to Christ in our fellowship, and what they're saying is, even if I continue to experience these things,
30:18
I have died to my old self, and I will live to Christ. And that's what he's saying.
30:25
And that we need to recognize the existence of those in the Church who experience these things, but the only ones of those people that Christians can honor are those who do not try to change
30:36
Christianity to fit their predilections, but are willing to be changed by the faith, rather than trying to change the faith.
30:48
And there in Romans 1 and elsewhere, and so we look and say, what does Christ -shaped new creation look like?
30:54
And we've got, as I say, gay guys in our church, and women as well, who've said, for me, I know, dying to my old life and being risen again to new life in Christ means dying to all the acts of the flesh, including some of the sexual things that, yes,
31:03
I wanted to do them, just like lots of people want to have sex with lots of people. Some people might want to have sex with three or four people simultaneously, but that doesn't mean
31:09
I'm okay to do that. It means that I just, like anybody else, greed or desires to slander or to swindle, or any number of other sins, that we just say those things die with me.
31:17
I repent and I get baptized. And I suppose that, for me, to not put that in front of somebody is at risk of saying, you can have the kingdom, you can inherit the kingdom, but if it costs too much, we'll just lower the asking price until we get people to buy it.
31:29
So are you lowering the bar, as it were? I mean, I know I've heard you talk about the cost of discipleship,
31:35
Rob, but for you, this particular issue isn't one that's kind of an issue in discipleship as far as you're concerned.
31:41
This isn't the big issue for you? Correct. Now, notice,
31:48
Bell is now getting mad. He's now getting angry. You can tell. His answers become brief.
31:56
He doesn't want to engage. Wilson has done a very good job in laying out a biblical perspective on this, and Wilson cannot engage.
32:05
Bell cannot engage him on that. It's very obvious. How do you address Andrew's concerns, then, that this is the, you know, part of what it means to be a follower of Christ, is denying certain aspects of your life, including if you experience same -sex attraction, that acting on that has to go.
32:23
You just don't see that. I've met lots of people who are gay. Now, notice,
32:29
Wilson presents biblically -based thought, biblically -based ethics and morality.
32:38
Listen to Bell's response. Classic example of the collapse of a former evangelical into Rob Beldum.
32:48
And had the exact experience he's talking about, who said, I choose to be celibate.
32:55
I choose to not engage. And they do it out of a deep sense of conviction. That can be a beautiful thing.
33:01
I also have friends who have had long -term partners. And they have had somebody to share their life with.
33:09
And they're serious followers of Jesus. And they're serious members of their community. And they give and serve together.
33:17
And they don't want to live alone. They want somebody to share their life with. They feel like wired to share their life with somebody.
33:25
And I don't see any reason to say to them, you can't do that, or you then can't be a part of the church, or you can't be a contributing member.
33:33
Doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me. There is the ultimate authority for Rob Bell.
33:40
It doesn't make any sense to me. I refuse to allow my ethics and morals to be formed by supernatural revelation.
33:48
I insist that supernatural revelation bow to my feelings and my cultural norms.
33:55
There you go. I mean, obviously, a lot of people who disagree simply with your view on what Scripture has to say in that regard, how we exegete it, the hermeneutic, perhaps, that you're bringing to it, will say, well, it's like you did with Love Wins, Rob.
34:08
You've gone liberal, basically, they'll say. Now... Yes, Justin.
34:14
He's gone liberal. I'd just be interested to know what it is about that makes you feel confident that this isn't just Rob Bell going liberal.
34:22
This is actually Rob Bell being true to Christ, being true to the Scriptures. Well, I think the better question is, what does it look like when it's lived out?
34:31
And I've been in lots and lots and lots of settings with lots of friends and lots of people who have same -sex relationships, and it's not destructive and it's not evil and it's not...
34:41
It's not destructive and it's not evil. How do you define what is destructive and evil, anyways?
34:49
For a Christian, you do so based upon what God has revealed concerning His will.
34:55
That's not how Rob Bell does it. Very pragmatic. Very pragmatic.
35:03
It's not destructive. Hmm. So these are individuals who you would say have healthy relationships.
35:11
Can't produce life. They're in love with a mirror image. But that's healthy.
35:18
That's good. That's not evil. Theology matters.
35:23
It's a part of how churches are. It's a part of how life is, and... Ah! Someone in Twitter was pointing out he seems to function on the is -ought fallacy.
35:36
Since that's the way things is, that's the way things ought to be! Uh, no. That's not the case.
35:43
It's fine. That's surely to beg the question, though, isn't it? I love it. Wilson...
35:49
I know why I know why I didn't get the call for this one. Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha!
35:56
Justin is a wise man. He knew that it would be really, really ugly.
36:02
Uh, but, um... I thought Wilson did a great job here. That is begging the question!
36:07
I've been in lots of relationships with people who are doing this, and it's not destructive or it's not evil. Surely God gets to define that, doesn't
36:13
He? Over and above. Not to speak about the individual's concern, but God gets to provide that definition, rather than my observation. It's like, you can imagine people in the period of One and Two Kings, which
36:20
I'm going through in my quiet times at the moment, going, well, actually, I know lots of people who worship at the high places, and they still follow Yahweh that's great, and the
36:27
Scriptures don't seem to have that attitude. They seem to be saying, no, no, no, there are moments, a lot of them, where Jesus said, if anybody wants to follow Me, he needs to hate, in the sense of lesser love, all of these things that you might otherwise have to lose if you follow
36:36
Me. And, of course, Paul was like that, and it cost him his life, and it cost Jesus his life, obviously, it cost him sexual relationships, and neither of them had those things, so it sort of doesn't
36:44
God get to draw that line, rather than I shouldn't say you, I know there's others who are doing it too, but why isn't that, why isn't the fact that Scripture speaks that way, and the fact that Paul, Moses, Jesus speak that way, why isn't that the end of the conversation, in terms of defining what something might to be evil and destructive, what something looks like?
36:59
Badabing! There you go! And what kind of response do you get from that kind of logical, biblical, rational response?
37:09
Your interpretation of verses? No, not my interpretation, of course it is, we're all doing our own interpretation of verses, but it's not only an interpretation of verses, it's an understanding of the sweep of Scripture, starting from the very beginning, where you have one man, one woman in permanent relationship, and you go all the way through the version.
37:24
You hear what he's doing? Oh, well, that's just your interpretation of verses.
37:30
Well, okay, now it's just your interpretation of the sweep of Scripture. This man is, I mean, yea, hath
37:37
God said, I mean, this is straight back to the Garden. This man, to defend the indefensible, is willing to basically say, we don't know, we can't know what the
37:51
Bible actually says, who are you to think you can actually know what the
37:57
Bible says? That's inappropriate. That's wrong. Classic.
38:04
Just absolutely classic. Your understanding of the sweep of Scriptures. Well, understanding of Genesis 1, understanding of Genesis 2, understanding of the
38:10
Torah, understanding of the Prophets, understanding of Jesus, understanding of Paul's Revelation, of course, that's always what we're talking about, but I think to say, oh, but that's your understanding, of course, it is my understanding, just like yours is yours, but yours, unlike mine, is obviously in the face of apparent meanings of lots and lots of texts supported by almost every scholar, and it's also in the face of 2 ,000 years of Christian tradition, in which that hasn't been the way people have read any of those texts.
38:28
So, with Justin, I'm sort of saying, if you move the goalpost, isn't the, I was going to say, maybe the humility of Orthodoxy is to say,
38:34
I'll stay where the Church is unless I'm sure that the Church has always been wrong about this, and in that sense, I want to understand what arguments you were bringing to the table to suggest that the
38:41
Church had always been wrong about it. As much as I agree with the desire to win, and I want to see people liberated and free and everything as well, but I think unless the definition of what freedom looks like is clearly established, we're both going to be on very different pages about how to go about it.
38:54
Indeed. Well said. And what do you get, you know, when you talk to a liberal, when you talk to a post -modernist, when you talk to somebody who just really doesn't have a biblical basis for what they're doing, what kind of replies can you get to that kind of challenge?
39:13
I mean, this kind of strikes me as kind of a fundamental thing that's kind of been symptomatic of what you've been doing lately,
39:20
Rob. There's a lot of people saying, are you giving up a kind of an Orthodox position? What sort of, on what basis can you claim to be speaking now the truth about God?
39:30
You know, you've titled your book, What We Talk About When We Talk About God, and while there's a lot that you and Andrew have been happy to agree on on that front, obviously when you get to these particular issues, and this is a particular issue, and I don't want to frame this as the only issue out there by any stretch of the imagination, but you know, how do you kind of say, no,
39:48
I'm really firm that this is, is it, because what you've talked about is essentially experience, I think, that you've seen that there are people who are gay, who are in relationships, and they're living out a true life of Christian discipleship.
40:01
Is that the kind of the defining thing, that if you see that happening, then that for you is enough to say, we did get it wrong for a long time on this issue?
40:11
You have the witness of the community, you have your own experience, you have lots of scholarship, you have lots of things that inform why you think the way you do.
40:21
You draw on lots of sources. That's how we all do it. And people will disagree with you, obviously.
40:28
I mean, what... That was, that's not even a response. I mean, well, you know, you've got the witness of the community and your personal experience and scholarship.
40:41
Really? That's all you've got. You've just been challenged. The person who has challenged you has given a rational, clear, biblical argument.
40:56
And that's what you've got is the witness of the community. What community? Formed by what?
41:02
Fidelity to Scripture? No. You don't have the witness of that community. So, what do you mean, witness of the community?
41:11
And scholarship? Name them? What? Who are you going to go to? What are you going to present?
41:19
Well, we don't really know what arsenikoite means. Yes, we do. I mean, if you'll allow Paul to have some knowledge of the
41:25
Greek Septuagint, we know what that means. We know what's going on here. Romans 1 wasn't just about men and boys.
41:31
It was about two men burning with lust toward one another. That's mutuality. It's right there.
41:39
Same thing with lesbians in Romans 1. It's right there. There's no question about any of this stuff. So you just throw out these vague, well, you know, and that's how we all do it.
41:51
What do you do with that disagreement? Do you just say, it's just a kind of an impasse we're at? Are you kind of confident that people will come around to, in this issue, your way of looking at things?
42:01
Well, Andrew's my brother. Like, if we got out the bread and wine, we'd both take it. And then go surfing.
42:08
So I don't... So if we got out the bread and wine, see, we don't really have to worry about this stuff.
42:19
We just get out the bread and wine and we have the Lord's Supper. What's the Lord's Supper?
42:26
The Lord's Supper was never designed to be an emotional experience that overthrows the truth of the
42:35
Gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, what makes the
42:41
Lord's Supper so special is that it is an anamnesis, a remembrance of the sin bearer.
42:49
And the only thing that makes that so special is to recognize there is such a thing as sin that needs to be born.
42:56
And how do we know what sin needs to be born? God's law tells us. But in Rob Bell's world, we wouldn't know.
43:06
We wouldn't have any way of knowing. We'd get out the bread and wine.
43:15
Really. And that's what led, and you've already heard this next section, and yes,
43:22
I had to insert a beep into it, because as we can tell, he may be talking about getting out the bread and wine, but he isn't happy.
43:31
I understand it one way. I read it one way. He reads it another way. Is that it, then?
43:37
Do we just part ways? Or do you take the bread and wine and just Christ hold us together? Is there something that trumps whatever differences we have?
43:44
That's the question. So, where do you draw the line, Rob? Where do you draw the line?
43:50
Do you have the Lord's Supper with Mormons? Jehovah's Witnesses? Where do you draw the line?
43:58
Or do you draw a line at all? As long as someone's willing to have the bread and wine, Buddhist, Hindu, let's just all get together.
44:05
We're all going to get saved eventually, someday, right? Right? Well, that's what one tradition says, right?
44:13
Like, literally, you're asking, and this is part of, like, sort of the bulls**t that really, really, really pushes people away, is when you have a particular conviction, and all of a sudden, your orthodoxy or your faithfulness to Jesus is all of a sudden called into question.
44:29
Oh, so let's say you have a particular conviction that Jesus didn't rise from the dead. We shouldn't question your orthodoxy.
44:36
No, no, no. That would be unloving. People would be driven away from the Church if you questioned that. I've debated people who think the resurrection of Jesus Christ is purely spiritual.
44:48
How about them, Rob? Some of them might be really nice guys. Just salt of the earth.
44:55
Just break out the bread and wine. Let's not worry about it, right? So, when I get an interview like this,
45:02
Like this. And it inevitably comes around to whether I'm not a... And you didn't say whether I'm not a Christian, but it's the same, like, have you gone liberal?
45:10
Have you given up? You haven't said what about...
45:15
Like, you haven't asked a series of questions of Andrew about what about this, what about this. It comes back to me.
45:21
This is why so many people don't want to be a part of the Church. Ha! You didn't ask him all those questions.
45:26
Maybe because he's an orthodox Christian. Maybe because he doesn't have to.
45:32
Maybe because he's been very clear. Maybe because he's actually answered the questions that were put to him, and nobody has any questions about where he stands.
45:41
Maybe he hasn't been playing language games. Maybe that's why he hasn't been asked those questions.
45:47
But if he had been asked those questions, guess what? I think he would have answered them. Without playing the victim card.
45:53
Oh, you're all picking on me, and that's why nobody likes the church anymore because you show me. I stopped using this kind of behavior and argumentation in the third grade.
46:08
It's amazing that in our culture today, as soon as you pull out the victim card, all rational argument and thoughts has to come to a complete end for fear of offending somebody.
46:20
Well, I'm offended by Rob Bell. I'm offended by his teaching. I'm offended by his abuse of the faith.
46:28
But does that mean I'm just going to go, he should just be quiet? I leave that to God.
46:35
This is why so many people is literally, if you are on a particular issue, because you have just defined this as a particular issue, if you see it this way and not this way, then your whole thing is called into question.
46:45
Rob, are you even... This is just why so many people just give up. I mean, I can tell that you're fed up with that.
46:51
Well, it's just part of... I think it just speaks to the stuff that so many people are so tired of. And this isn't an issue of taking
46:57
God seriously. This isn't an issue of God's holiness. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. It's an issue of...
47:03
It is an issue of all of those things, Mr. Bell. It's an issue of all of them.
47:10
Don't you get that? Did you catch what he said? I kept saying it isn't, but listen, this is...
47:17
Whether Scripture is clear enough to define God's intentions and what is marriage and what is sexuality and what is gender, it's not a part of any of that.
47:29
I think it just speaks to the stuff that so many people are so tired of. And this isn't an issue of taking God seriously. This isn't an issue of God's holiness or worship.
47:37
This isn't an issue of discipleship. It's an issue of the tent might be a little bigger. And when it becomes like, you're not even in the tent.
47:45
you just sort of go... I understand that, but it might be an issue of God's holiness. Can you see that if you saw the text of the
47:50
Bible, it would be an issue of God's holiness? Sure, but even then, the whole framework for him was on this particular issue.
47:56
So we have a wide -ranging discussion about resurrection all the way across. We come down to one issue, and it's not nuclear weapons, it's not immigration, it's not the...
48:05
Excuse me? Immigration or nuclear weapons?
48:12
You have specific direct didactic teaching in Romans 1 and 1
48:20
Corinthians 6 on this topic, and you parallel that to immigration and nuclear weapons.
48:27
Wow. Addiction to technology and email and all the ways in which people are overwhelmed with stress and worry.
48:34
Email addiction. Where Jesus did say, don't worry. You have a wide range of issues. Somebody comes along and this issue, apparently, there's an issue with them on this particular issue, and instantly it becomes a whole thing.
48:46
Wait a minute, you're talking about redefining the most fundamental elements of God's revelation of man's actual being, male and female, family, father, mother, the first institution of God amongst men, and you're going to parallel it to a
49:03
Facebook addiction. Right. There you go. That is so absurd, it is difficult to even know how to begin to respond to it.
49:14
I... That's why I think we're going to have to just wind things up, guys.
49:20
For me, it's part of like... The question is, why is the issue there, isn't it?
49:25
I think it's not just a randomly chosen issue, what are your views on this issue? That's the buzzword for the day, so we'll catch you out on that.
49:32
It's how you got to that position, and I think in some ways what I'm trying to establish is if you got to the position of saying,
49:38
I affirm this because I genuinely don't believe that anything in the Bible indicates that it's sinful, and therefore I think we should celebrate it because God does, because Jesus does, because the apostles did, because the prophets did, this is just a great thing, and 2 ,000 years of church history have been wrong, they've been reading it wrong, and here's a whole bunch of scholarship to support that position.
49:53
If that's how you got there, then I'd say, well, I disagree, but I'd love to see the evidence, I'd love to work it through. If you're saying the world's moved on,
49:59
God's going to get left behind if we don't change it, even though, to be honest, I've got a sneaking feeling that there might be a lot in Scripture that speaks against us, but I just don't think we can afford to keep sticking with that because it looks boring and retrograde and backward and intolerant, so we will drop what
50:10
I think Jesus or Paul or the apostles or anybody else was saying, in order to make ourselves more adaptable to the modern age. That doesn't mean you're not a
50:16
Christian, of course it doesn't, it doesn't mean you've even gone, in my own saying, liberal is resurrection denying, and you're not doing close to doing that, but it does mean that there's something quite fundamental that might be switching, which is saying,
50:24
I don't think that I can hold this text as being my highest standard for behaviour and morality anymore, and that's a big enough deal to people like me that we would want to say, do you see what
50:32
I mean? And I think if you shared my view on those texts, you'd probably feel similarly, so it's really which way have you got to that conclusion,
50:37
I guess is the question I'm wanting to answer. Well, we are going to have to draw a thing. Ha! Oh, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
50:45
Wait, you didn't think of that stuff before? I'm not talking to Wilson, I'm talking to Bella. Oh, yeah, yeah,
50:50
I suppose, yeah, yeah, if I viewed those texts that way, I guess it would have something to do with the holiness of God. So, well, yeah, yeah,
50:58
I am absolutely offended by Rob Bell's behaviour there.
51:05
And not so much the profanity, I mean, that just speaks to what fills the heart, but just the cavalier handling of the scriptures, and vitally important truths, and just the muddling.
51:22
Because, look, people look at that and go, see, you Christians can't figure things out. There it is.
51:28
There it is. I find it absolutely offensive. And I will say this without the slightest hesitation.
51:38
If Rob Bell is a part of Evangelicalism, I am not. I am not.
51:51
Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I'm going to have to unplug this one and plug it in the other one, so you'll want to mute that for a second.
52:00
Just have enough time toward the end here. That's what happens when you have multiple computers.
52:07
Hopefully that's going to work. Have just enough time toward the end here to play a call that James Swan told me about.
52:20
And I found it fascinating. Rather interesting. Big shift in thing here, but it's the only way
52:28
I'm going to be able to sneak it in. I forget what the date on this was. It's still on the Catholic Answers website.
52:34
It was only a few weeks ago, I believe. Just listen in. We're going to get to you,
52:40
Michael, in Uniontown, but first we'll go to Brian in Commerce, California on Sirius130. Hello, Brian. Hey, how's it going?
52:45
Good. My question is pretty much, I was listening to a debate with Dr.
52:51
James White. He's a Protestant reformer. A Reformed Protestant, I'm sorry. Like everything he said,
52:59
I guess he seems like a brilliant man. He's really smart, but I don't understand if he can explain to me what keeps a guy like him away from the
53:09
Catholic Church and knowing the truth. Brian, you might be calling the wrong show.
53:14
Have you asked him? No, I haven't. He would be welcome to call.
53:20
I'd be happy to explain even more deeply than in any of the debates you might have seen.
53:25
That's actually a good question. Well, Jim, it's a very mysterious thing, isn't it? You've got the claims of the
53:31
Church. You've got motives of credibility. You have people outside the Church that seem to have gotten the smart gene, and yet they don't by external appearances seem interested in Catholicism.
53:41
That's right, and this seems to be a consequence of original sin. We all fail in some way, and with original sin, one of the things that comes with that is concupiscence, which is an attraction to sin, and that sin might be pride.
54:01
It might be... There could be a number of reasons why a person doesn't embrace things.
54:07
The Catholic Church recognizes such a thing as invincible ignorance, ignorance that cannot be overcome by a particular person for one reason or another.
54:17
They may not be... In the case of invincible ignorance, it's something that they're not culpable of.
54:23
There's also ignorance that a person is culpable of, and they may be culpable of it because of pride may be one of the reasons.
54:34
There could be a number of reasons, but it all comes around to the fact that we are fallen creatures.
54:43
We're good in the sense God created us, and we're in his image and in his likeness, but we have failed in his likeness through our first parents, and we all fail in some way.
54:58
When you have someone who really seems to be very intelligent, may be very intelligent, there could still be some block, some wall, something keeping him from fully embracing the truth.
55:11
I can't say what it is in any particular person's case. In the case of James White, I don't know, but we can pray for him, and we can hope that he will come around on these issues, come around to the truth and embrace it fully, but that's ultimately between him and God.
55:29
My question is why can't people who live the full sacramental life become saints more quickly? We've got all the tools.
55:36
We've got this arsenal of grace and power, so why are we half asleep? That's right. Our fallen natures work against us.
55:42
Appreciate the call, Brian. Let's go. So, there you go. There is... Why am
55:48
I not a Roman Catholic? Because of Original Sin, I guess. They didn't want to discuss specifics, and I can understand that, you know, because then they might have to actually make reference to debates that they don't want to actually...
55:59
they didn't know actually exist, but it was all about Original Sin. That's what it's all about.
56:05
And obviously on one level, I will generally agree when someone asks, well, why doesn't anybody believe the truth?
56:14
It's because we all fell in Adam and we're suppressing the truth. I mean, duh. But specifically in regards to this subject, the underlying assumption is, well, it's just all so plain.
56:30
The truth of Romanism is just so plain that anybody who would know what I know would automatically just embrace it.
56:37
And of course, that's just absurd. That's not the case, but that seemed to be the assumption that was being said.
56:46
And so we actually got someone in channel who's talking about how harsh I am.
56:51
I'm just a terrible, mean, horrible person. My first question to Giacomo is going to be, have you read
56:56
Matthew 23 or the Book of Galatians recently? Just wondering, because I just like to...
57:03
Normally I find out really quickly once somebody reads some of that stuff. Do you think I'm more harsh or less harsh than that?
57:10
And then sort of go from there. We'll see. But anyhow, that'll be interesting.
57:16
Well, there you go, folks. I knew I'd have to listen to it. I didn't actually think
57:22
I was going to respond to it. But when you have that kind of cavalier response to such important stuff at this vital time in the history of the
57:35
Church and in the ministry of the Church today, I just felt like it was necessary that we take the time to take a look at it.
57:42
We've got lots of other stuff to get back to. I'd like to get back to the East London Mosque debate and some of the comments of Zakir Hussain and all that kind of stuff.
57:51
But as time allows us, we will get to it. Thanks for listening to the program today. We'll see you
57:58
Thursday at the regular time here on The Dividing Line. God bless. God bless.
59:30
God bless. God bless. God bless. You can also find us on the world wide web at AOMIN .org. That's AOMIN .org.
59:36
Where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates and tracks. Join us again this Thursday afternoon at 4