March 28, 2017 Show with Ken Samples on “Christian Endgame: Careful Thinking About the End Times”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 28th day of March 2017.

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I'm in studio today with my co -host the Reverend Buzz Taylor. It's good to see you today,

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Buzz. And we are going to be addressing something that is a very controversial issue that unfortunately divides the body of Christ today in varying degrees, but speculations about how and when the world will end abound.

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How can we separate sound biblical teaching from sensational movies and headlines? Theologian and philosopher

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Kenneth Samples tackles this controversial topic and provides solid biblical teaching about future events, especially on those beliefs shared by Christians throughout the ages, no matter what their denominational perspective.

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And my guest is today Ken Samples, a dear old friend of mine and my late wife.

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He is a philosopher, theologian, former senior research consultant and correspondence editor at the

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Christian Research Institute, commonly known as CRI, former co -host of the Bible Answer Man radio broadcast, and currently he's senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe, author of Christian Endgame, which we are discussing today, in addition to Seven Truths That Changed the

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World, A World of Difference, Without a Doubt, and he is a leader of Reason to Believe's Straight Thinking podcast.

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He's host of the Reflections blog. He's a speaker at universities and churches worldwide. He's a frequent guest on radio programs such as the

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Frank Sontag Show, Issues Etc., Stand to Reason, and more. He's an adjunct professor at Biola University, and he's a member of the

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Evangelical Philosophical Society and the Evangelical Theological Society and the International Society of Christian Apologetics, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron, Sharp, and Zion, Ken Samples.

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Hey Chris, it's good to be with you and Buzz. Thank you for having me on. It's a real pleasure. Yeah, it's great to have you back on the program, especially on an issue like this that sadly divides the body of Christ, and because of the fact that we are all going to be sinners until the day that we are in glory with Christ, and we are all finite and fallible people, we are always going to disagree on certain matters, and it is a sad thing when something like eschatology can be raised to a level of importance on the rungs on the ladder where those in the body of Christ become hateful toward one another and write each other off as being lost or liberal or what have you.

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But obviously there are certain things about eschatology that are non -negotiable that are essential for Orthodox Christianity, so we don't want to undermine the importance of this subject either.

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But Ken, what compelled you to write Christian Endgame, Careful Thinking About the

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End Times? Yeah, thank you Chris. I actually was motivated to write this book for apologetic reasons.

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Now let me tell you what I mean by that. I've been studying Christian theology for more than 30 years, closer to 40 years

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I guess, and what I began to realize is that this field of eschatology, which is the study of last things or future things, eschatos is the word for last, so eschatology is the study of last things or final things.

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What I began to see is that when we're not careful when it comes to eschatology, and you know, this is a part of Christian theology where it's very tempting to speculate, to emphasize the most controversial areas, and what

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I began to see, Chris, was that when we're not careful, when people engage in date -setting, when people emphasize only the most controversial aspects of Christian eschatology, then two negative things happen.

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When we date -set and we're wrong, and everybody by the way, everybody who has ever set a date has been wrong, which

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I think should give us the indication that that's something we shouldn't be engaged in. But when people date -set and they're wrong, inevitably, this gives fuel to the skeptics, to the atheists, to the secular world, that Christianity is basically a game, it's a sham.

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Moreover, when people date -set and they're wrong, no matter how sincere they are, and I think people have been by and large sincere who've set dates.

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Now, some people have engaged in very irresponsible actions, but a lot of people are sincere, they read

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Scripture, they study it, they believe that their interpretation is correct. But it also carries another negative element, and that is, it's discouraging to Christians, because they see their favorite prophecy teacher, their favorite pastor, their favorite

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Christian leader, and they date -set, they're wrong, and people begin to think, maybe there's something wrong with Scripture, when in reality, there's something wrong with the way the person is approaching the topic.

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So I wrote the book Christian Endgame, Careful Thinking About the End Times, for apologetic reasons.

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I want the Christian faith to be held as a faith of integrity, and I want

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Christians to be reassured, rather than put into a place where there's all kinds of speculation and doubt.

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So that was my central motivation, because after all, my central approach to Christianity is often functioning as a

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Christian apologist, who is seeking to explain and defend historic

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Christianity. Now, the main views of eschatology that are believed by Bible -believing

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Orthodox Christians, and have been some of them longer than others, but all of the primary views have been held for at least 150 years, but some going back over a millennia, going back even to the early

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Christian church. But we have amillennialism, we have postmillennialism, we have historic premillennialism, and we have premillennial pre -tribulationalism, and of course there are other varying degrees of eschatology under those main umbrellas.

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We even have mid -trib and pre -wrath -rapture views that have been advocated by some in more recent history.

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But if you could, give our listeners, who are really perhaps totally ignorant of the main views of eschatology, just so we could start with some kind of a framework, and then address what we are really opposing in unison, because I believe what you have written here is something that those of all of the primary eschatological views can join together in opposing, and that is date -setting and other sensationalistic aspects of end -times scenarios.

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Yes, Chris, when we look at eschatology, and you know,

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I think it's important, having said that I am very critical of approaches to eschatology that I think are less than responsible, less than careful.

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I mean, after all, we're dealing with apocalyptic literature. That literature involves certain forms of symbolism.

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Some of the most difficult areas of the Bible to interpretation end up being apocalyptic literature.

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The book of Daniel in the Old Testament, a great example. The New Testament, the book of Revelation.

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So apocalyptic literature is challenging. There are also other questions that relate here.

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Another issue is one of the major issues of Christianity that impacts eschatology is how do we relate the

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Old Testament to the New Testament? That impacts often where you come down on various eschatological issues.

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And then finally, these broad categories of eschatology, including areas of the

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Millennium. So there are areas in which Christians agree. I coined a word,

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I think, kind of borrowing from C .S. Lewis. I have a section in the book on what I call mere

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Christian eschatology. Well, Christians have common agreement, whether they're all

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Mill, whether they're post -Mill, whether they're pre -Mill. And oftentimes we emphasize the differences of the

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Millennium, or we emphasize differences of interpreting apocalyptic literature, rather than looking at what

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I would call the essential areas of Christian eschatology. Now, let me note one thing here.

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Even when we look at the Ancient Creed, we look at the Apostles' Creed and the

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Nicene Creed, they contain an essential aspect of eschatology that Jesus will return.

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And so this idea of, often expressed, the already, not yet.

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Jesus has come in His incarnation, but yet we await the blessed hope.

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And out of this kind of comes the question of the Millennium. And the

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Millennium is understood out of the book of Revelation, looking at Revelation 19 into Chapter 20.

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And schools of interpretation have developed the idea that the pre -Millennial approach has, as you mentioned, two varieties, historic pre -Mill and dispensational pre -Mill.

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And by the term pre -Mill, it's before the Millennium. And so a pre -Millennial component that is essential is that Jesus will return to Earth before the

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Millennial Kingdom. And this Millennial Kingdom will be a thousand -year earthly reign.

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Now, during that time, there'll be all kinds of issues dealt with, the addressing of Satan, the question of Christ's reign during that Kingdom.

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But this idea that is very important relates to Jesus returning to set up a literal

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Millennial Kingdom. Now, historic pre -Mill is largely going to emphasize the idea that Christ will return after the

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Tribulation. So most historic pre -Mill people are pre -Mill and post -Tribulationists, whereas the dispensational perspective has been characterized more by the idea of a rapture, a taking up of the

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Church that will take place before the Tribulation. The two pre -Millennial schools also differ over how to understand some of the things regarding the

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Old Testament. For example, dispensational pre -Millennialism, which has undergone evolution, meaning that it's not like the 19th century school.

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At Talbot School of Theology, where I was a student, they would often talk about progressive dispensational ideas.

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So the idea there would be that during the Millennial Kingdom, the pre -Trib dispensational view would say that certain things will be incorporated out of the

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Old Testament law and will be practiced during the Millennial Kingdom. So that's the pre -Millennial.

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Christ returns, sets up a literal thousand -year reign upon the earth.

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After that reign comes the eternal state. A second view is called post -Millennial.

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By the way, the pre -Millennial view in Church history goes back pretty early. It appears that certain people, even in the first century, believed something like pre -Millennialism.

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It fell out of favor and has become popular in the 19th and 20th and 21st century.

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Now post -Millennialism, instead of pre, now we have post. So the

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Gospel will be enormously successful in reaching the ends of the earth.

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The Great Commission, the Christian Commission, to preach the Gospel will reach the entire earth.

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And there will be a great period of peace. There will be a great period of success when it comes to the preaching and teaching of Christianity.

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Some would suggest this is going to be a thousand years. Others would suggest it's a long period of time.

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And then Christ will return after this great period of Christian proclamation, evangelism, missions, etc.

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So Jesus returns after the Millennial period. A third perspective, which is probably the consensus.

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By the way, I should mention that post -Millennialism was enormously popular in the 19th century.

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It has experienced somewhat of a revival in the 20th and 21st century.

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And I would also note that there are two kinds of post -Millennial ways of thinking.

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You have the more Puritan side. Then you have the more theocratic side.

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And again, there would be differences there about how Christian teaching would be applied to the nations.

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And so some would go more toward a Puritan element, others toward a theocratic perspective.

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Now the Amillennial interpretation is probably the consensus position.

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That is, it's probably been held for the longest period of time. It was especially popular during the time of St.

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Augustine, through the Middle Ages with St. Thomas Aquinas. It's been popular among the reformers of the

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Protestant Reformation. I think it's probably the consensus position even in the

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Eastern Orthodox tradition, although I'd have to check that. But the idea here is you put an

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A in front of a word, you often negate it. So you take the word theism, a belief in a personal creator

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God, put an A in front of it, you get atheism, no God. Well, Amillennialism says there is no thousand -year literal reign on the earth.

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Rather, the Millennium is a symbol of the period between Jesus' first and second coming, and so Christ is either reigning through his church or in heaven through the martyrs, and so this position is seen as a symbolic reference to that church age.

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And Amillennialism has been very popular, as I mentioned. It's probably the simplest explanation, and many great

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Christian thinkers have held it. It remains popular today. So there is a very quick overview of kind of the

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Millennial perspective. And it's interesting that over the years

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I have become very close with members of all of these eschatological views, but specifically those who are both

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Postmillennial and Amillennial. I think that there is a lot more commonality between those two views than many on the surface would first realize or admit.

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And my co -host here, Reverend Buzz Taylor, is a Postmillennialist and, in fact, is writing a book on eschatology at this moment.

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What is the title of that book? Bible Prophecy Like You've Never Heard It Before, dot, dot, dot.

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What Should Have. Well, Buzz, perhaps you would agree or disagree with me, but you can let me know.

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And you too, Ken. But in regard to the differences between Amillennial and Postmillennialism, isn't it just really relative to the level of optimism that you have regarding the

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Christianization of the earth before the return of Christ? Isn't that really... Largely. The way we word it is it has to do with the nature of the kingdom.

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But we do consider Amillennialists to be cousins, because if they do believe that, well, they believe that the millennium pertains to the time we're in, where we would say it is the time we're in.

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And both of us then, of course, would agree that when Jesus returns, it's after this period of time we're in.

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So technically, we're the same. But yes, the major difference is over the nature of the kingdom and what's going to happen in the world between the first and second comings of Christ.

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Now would you concur with Buzz on those summaries of the differences, Ken? I would say that...I'm

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willing to go far enough to say this. I think that there is a theological orientation between Amill and Postmill that is closer than those in the premillennial camp.

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I think historically and theologically, the eschatological roots are closer.

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I think the premillennial interpretation is a little bit more of an outlier.

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You know, in my book, I don't take a position, and I'll tell you why. What I'm after is to encourage, to help, to inspire people to be thoughtful, to be careful.

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I want a report. I'll let you decide. But the idea here is that let's be very careful.

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Let's be very responsible. And I would say this. Look, if you are a premillennialist, and you understand the

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Amill and Postmill view, you understand the strengths and weaknesses, and you still arrive at premill, then

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I say that's fine. If you're an Amill person, and you're committed to that, but you understand the different viewpoints or a

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Postmill, what I'm concerned about, guys, is that for many years I've heard people being dogmatic about their perspective, and they couldn't spell

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Amill or Postmill. I think we need to be charitable.

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I think we need to be gracious. You know, the 19th century

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Lutheran theologian, let me get his name here so I can give him credit,

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Rupertus Milindius, 17th century Lutheran theologian, he's the one who said, in essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, in all things charity.

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You mean, I've been accrediting that to Augustine all these years. Oh, no, that's been accredited to everybody.

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Everybody credits to Augustine, but it takes an Augustine scholar like me to tell you. The idea there is,

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I think, very critical. So look, if you're a premill guy or a Postmill or an

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Amill person, I'm not necessarily going to try to change your view, but what I am going to do is say, your view will carry a lot more weight if you're careful, you're thoughtful, and you've done your homework.

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I will take that one step further also, though, especially when people want to write books and appear on TV, and that is, they really should understand the position that they are speaking against, because when

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I became a Postmillennialist, my first thought was, no, I'm not a Postmillennialist, because I had been taught in college what a

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Postmillennialist was, and that's not what I was. And then I found out later on, wait a minute, I had heard it wrong, and I've heard some horrendous definitions of Postmillennialism on the radio.

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So we need to be careful that we do at least accurately represent our opposition.

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Yes, and of course, to simplify matters, you said there were two major kinds of Postmillennialists, but obviously there are even more splinter groups, even under the umbrella of all of those major views.

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I did a series, in fact, I've done this twice on Iron, Sharp, and Ziron, since 2006, we've been on the air.

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Two times I did a series on eschatology where I had different representatives of the major views, each having a day to themselves, to promote their particular eschatological view, and I needed to have three

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Postmillennialists on different days, because they differed so widely. I had one that was

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Preterist and Theonomic, one that was only Preterist, not

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Theonomic, and one that was neither. And I could have probably had ten more.

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And of course, even on Millennialists, there are some that are Preteristic, and some that are very opposed to all forms of Preterism, and some that are very optimistic, and some that are very pessimistic.

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But it's interesting, a lot of people think that Ian Murray is a Postmillennialist because of his book,

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The Puritan Hope, which has become a classic work for Postmillennialists to promote their own view, but he is,

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I met him face to face, and he told me that he is an Amillennialist. So, it's interesting how, that goes back to what

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I was saying, I think that sometimes there's more commonality than difference, and in fact, I think historically, perhaps you can correct me if I'm wrong,

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Ken, but I think historically, before the term Postmillennialism came into vogue, weren't the theological terms used for both

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Amill and Postmill the same, before the coining of these phrases? Certainly, if you look back to St.

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Augustine, and Augustine's born in 354, dies in 430, maybe, arguably, the most influential

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Christian thinker outside of the Biblical authors. But there are people who look at Augustine and say, there are times he appears to be

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Amill, other times he appears to be Postmill, and so there is kind of a historic connection there.

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And I want to make a brief comment affirming what Buzz said. You know,

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I talk about what I call the golden rule of apologetics, and that's simply, treat other people's views the way you want yours treated.

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Namely, treat them fairly. Treat them as accurately as you possibly can.

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And Chris, I agree with you. While I designate two forms of Premill, then

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Postmill and Amill, the reality is that people have varying views, even within those camps.

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And Amill people sometimes differ, Postmill people differ, but these are kind of the general categories we're kind of looking at in interpretation.

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And one thing I might want to add in here at the outset for my Premillennial friends, both historic and dispensationalists, those of you out there who will say, well,

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Amillennialism can't be true because Catholics are in the majority Amillennial. You don't want to use that kind of rhetoric or polemic because you could easily just have that returned against you and say, well, most of the cults are

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Premillennial. So, you know, you can't use the guilt by association routine when it comes to eschatology.

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In fact, I can't even think right now of a cult that is not Premillennial in some way. But we're going to go to a break right now, our first break.

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Before I go to a break, I'm going to read you a question, Ken, and then you can answer it when you return from the break, or when we return from the break,

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I should say. And this is our friend in Slovenia again, who visited us the last time you were on and who visits us frequently with questions.

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Joe in Slovenia, he says, hello, Brother Chris, because eschatology is such a complicated topic and there are so many good scholars who completely disagree based on the same evidence,

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I haven't delved into the topic deeply. The extent of my comparative study involves reading

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The Meaning of the Millennium for Views edited by Robert G.

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Klaus. Are you familiar with the source? Is this a sufficient source to compare the four main views and draw a dependable conclusion?

27:17

What aspects of your book, this is for you, Ken, I'm assuming, because I haven't written a book, what aspects of your book will improve on or correct this source?

27:28

Thank you, Brother Chris and Brother Samples, for your sharpening our focus on our coming inheritance in Christ.

27:35

So if you could think about that. And we are going to be back after this initial station break.

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So if you'd like to join us on the air as well, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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If you don't already, on wlie540am .com. Well, welcome back to the program.

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If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is my dear friend for many years, going back to the early 1990s,

35:54

Ken Samples. And he is addressing his book, Christian Endgame, Careful Thinking About the

36:01

End Times. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

36:09

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And before the break, Ken, our listener in Slovenia, Joe, wants to know your take, if at all, or if any,

36:20

I should say, on the meaning of the Millennium Four Views edited by Robert G. Klaus.

36:26

Yeah, very good book. I read it many years ago. It was one of the early books that I read on eschatology.

36:36

I like the book. I think it's a very helpful book. It is a bit dated.

36:42

Now, how would my book differ with that one? Well, Joe, I think you'd get a lot more out of the

36:48

Klaus book, the Meaning of the Millennium Four Views, by reading my book. That is,

36:55

I'm not arguing for a position. What I do is try to give you a fair -minded perspective of the differing issues at hand as to why people kind of come to their view.

37:08

Also things my book addresses that aren't addressed in Klaus's book. I talk about near -Christian eschatology.

37:15

What do we all have in common? I also talk about the debates about heaven and hell. What about annihilationism?

37:22

What about conditional immortality? What about purgatory? I also talk about the practical aspects of eschatology.

37:31

Why is eschatology important? How should it influence the way we live our lives now?

37:38

Now, just a couple more points here about that very good book by Robert Klaus. He's the editor. I think the book does a great job, but I think there are two people in that book that really dominate the book.

37:51

George Elbin Ladd, who represents the historic premillennial view, and Anthony Houkouma, who represents the amillennial view.

37:59

These were two heavyweights in Christian eschatology, and they really dominate the book.

38:08

I thought the postmillennial chapter, as well as the dispensational premillennial chapter, were rather weak.

38:15

I think you can get a stronger argument from some of the postmill people and some of the dispensational premillennial people writing today.

38:25

In my view, Houkouma and Ladd were just so good that I think you can learn more by reading other books.

38:35

Again, my book is really written not to try to persuade, but to try to help

38:40

Christians to be careful, to be responsible, and to learn as much as they can as to why people hold the different views that they do.

38:49

But I like the Klaus book, and I certainly like Ladd and Houkouma very much. And I'd like to add, even though I am not a dispensationalist, if anybody wants to hear the best defense from a thoroughgoing five -point

39:06

Calvinist, who is also a dispensationalist, my dear friend Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church, who is a former professor at Talbot School of Theology, you can go to his website, wrbc .us,

39:22

and contact him and ask him to send you any material that he has on his own defense of pre -tribulational premillennialism from a dispensationalist understanding.

39:35

And he is a thoroughgoing Calvinist, and he also knows that I am not in agreement with him on his eschatology or his dispensationalism, and yet he loves this program so much that he is one of the primary sponsors of this broadcast.

39:52

And don't you think that that is a very healthy sign, Ken, that my dear friend Ron Glass does not have an exaggerated view of his own eschatological view?

40:05

I think that's a wonderful testimony, and I would encourage you to buy his book, just for that very reason.

40:14

I think a very important aspect of theology is knowing when these areas of difference are secondary and minor, and that there are more things we have in common.

40:29

I think that's a very critical discernment element that comes into all of this.

40:35

And quite frankly, I think we should read the best books on all sides. Let's school ourselves.

40:41

Let's do our homework. Let's study the field, and then allow ourselves to make the best decision as to how we think about these important but secondary issues.

40:57

You mentioned Anthony Hokema as a contributor to that book that our listener in Slovenia was addressing.

41:03

He was a very, very strongly pessimistic amillennialist, was he not? He's definitely in your more traditional amillennial camp.

41:13

Of course, Hokema, like Walter Martin, my teacher and my former boss,

41:20

Hokema wrote on cults and wrote on the Witnesses, the LDS, and knew a lot about the 19th century millennial issues.

41:31

I would put him in your more traditional amillennial category, but the interesting point is, if you read that book, there are areas in which

41:41

Ladd and Hokema agree with each other, and so I think, again, we want to be able to say that sometimes the impression is given that Christians just can't agree at all, whereas there are sound areas in which we all agree, including in that book,

42:00

Ladd and Hokema. All right, I think it would be, before I go on to any other listener questions, because there are some waiting for us, but before I go to them, perhaps it would be a good idea for you to outline what are those primary things that all

42:17

Orthodox Bible -believing Christians must believe about eschatology, or the last things, or the end times.

42:26

For those of our listeners who hear me use the phrase Orthodox and they think I'm talking about the

42:31

Eastern Orthodox Church, like the Greek or Russian Orthodox, I'm not speaking about that.

42:38

Orthodox means straight, means sound, biblically accurate in reference to biblical orthodoxy.

42:46

But if you could, can give us a list of those primary things that there is no debate on, or shouldn't be,

42:56

I should say, because there definitely will be a lot of debate whenever you bring up the end times, but the things that should not have debate amongst true

43:08

Orthodox Bible -believers. Yeah, very, very important topic, Chris. I'm glad you're bringing this to the fore.

43:16

Chapter 3 in my book, I entitle it, Mere Christian Eschatology.

43:21

Now, you think of C .S. Lewis' book, Mere Christianity, Lewis was trying to, you know,

43:28

Lewis was born in Northern Ireland. He knew that Christians had a lot of hostility, one toward another, denominationally, sometimes the branches of Christendom.

43:41

He talked about what do conservative Christians believe. Well, here I'm coining that term to apply it to Christian eschatology.

43:50

And I would say that there are five basic ideas that all historic

43:56

Christians affirm. The first one is the second coming of Jesus Christ, that Christ returns in a climactic and triumphal way to the earth, that it's not a mere spiritual presence, but this is the blessed hope, the second coming of Christ, that's reflected in the creeds, it's reflected much in scripture.

44:22

In fact, there's one biblical author who said there's more references to the second coming of Christ than there are references to the cross of Christ.

44:33

I mean, the Bible talks a lot about the second coming of the Lord. There is the first coming at the incarnation, then there will be the glorious second coming of our

44:43

Lord. Number two, the resurrection of the dead, when Christ comes. Now, again, there may be differences about when this resurrection takes place because of different millennial interpretations and things, but Christ is going to raise people from the dead.

44:59

All people will be raised from the dead. This is that glorious period of the resurrection body.

45:08

Thirdly, there'll be a final judgment that all Christians affirm, a judgment of humankind.

45:14

This will relate to nonbelievers in terms of the great white throne judgment.

45:20

In terms of Christians, there will be a judgment of their works, their faithfulness to God.

45:26

This would be that third element of the final judgment of humankind. For an eternal state, that is, we will move from the temporal world in which we live into an eternal state.

45:41

Again, the timing of this would be different, depending again upon differing ideas of hermeneutics, differing ideas of eschatology.

45:51

And then finally, there'll be the new creation, where the heavens and the earth in which we live will be moved to the new creation.

46:01

Christians disagree about whether God will destroy this universe and create a brand spanking new one, or whether there'll be a renewal of this universe into the new creation.

46:15

Again, eschatology is talking about the future, and often these are things that are hard for us to understand.

46:24

These are things that we are simply trying to foresee rather than see clearly.

46:30

So those would be the five. The second coming of Christ, the resurrection, the judgment, the eternal state, the new creation.

46:41

And unfortunately, guys, these are seldom ever talked about. We almost spend all of our time debating the

46:48

Millennium or debating the Rapture or debating secondary type of issues rather than looking at what, again, historic

46:58

Christians by and large have affirmed and what I call mere Christian eschatology.

47:04

And Reverend Buzz Taylor? We are like David Chilton said once, we want to find out what color socks the

47:11

Antichrist is wearing. That's a great line. All right, pull up your pants legs,

47:16

Buzz. But since you... I agree with what you just...

47:21

Not you, Chris. I'm agreeing with Ken Tamplin. But on the essentials, because I would agree with all of those, but I think just so people understand, because when you talk about, like you've already brought up,

47:36

Chris, earlier, even within the post -millennial camp and others, you have the preterist camp.

47:42

And what happens is people like to broad brush preterists because there are two kinds of preterists.

47:50

At least two. Well, there's the full and the partial. And if you look at the essentials that Brother Ken has just mentioned, full preterists do not believe in all of these in eschatology.

48:04

Partial preterists do, but they believe, for example, that resurrection has already happened and so forth.

48:10

So we need to make sure that you don't... If I were to say I'm a preterist, I don't want to be grouped with people who deny these essentials that we just heard.

48:21

Yeah, and I accept that. I think that... I think, though, it is, again, kind of an extremist position that would deny those.

48:31

But by and large, those are what I'm calling mere Christian eschatology. I'm not necessarily saying that all of those are an essential the way the

48:41

Trinity or the two natures of Christ is, but they are typically the mere

48:47

Christian eschatology. Now, I personally view full preterism, which

48:54

I would call hyper -preterism, as something outside of Orthodox Christianity. I believe that these people are heretical and even dangerous because their gospel really is that Jesus will not visibly and physically return.

49:10

He already has and has no need to return again because he's still here. And basically, they all have varying degrees of fulfillment in all biblical prophecy where they even disagree amongst themselves.

49:28

But they, I think, are a dangerous group of folks. Now, are you as equally as alarmed as I am over them,

49:36

Ken? I have real concern, real concern, genuine concern over the position that they take that Christ has already returned.

49:45

I don't see that view as being clearly and solvably within the basic eschatological perspective.

49:56

I'm not necessarily saying that you couldn't be a Christian, but I share some of your real concern over that viewpoint.

50:04

Now, I would agree with even my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, and some of the post -millennialists who are partial preterists who view different comings of Christ that were not physical and visible, such as the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem on AD 70.

50:25

That's where some of the confusion with second -coming language comes into play.

50:31

But when we say the second coming, we are talking about the final visible and physical return to earth of Christ, correct?

50:41

Yeah, and again, that's creedal. Now, from my theological perspective,

50:48

I value the creeds. I see them as authoritative, not because they're authoritative above Scripture, but that they're derived from Scripture.

50:57

So the return of Christ, that is a climactic event, and it is seen as, again, the fulfillment of the already -not -yet.

51:08

It is the blessed hope. Now, would you agree with some of our, predominantly our post -millennialist friends and partial preterist friends that would call other events in church history as comings of Christ that did not involve physical, as dramatic a physical and visible one that will be on the last day, such as the destruction of the temple and so on?

51:34

Would you call that a coming of Christ in draft? Yeah, I think that...

51:39

I don't think those ideas are solidly consistent with the consensus of Christian eschatology that there is this apocalyptic, this final event of the return of the

51:57

Lord, and so I don't think the extreme preterist or the full preterist position is as in keeping with classical

52:08

Christian eschatology as some of the other views we've talked about. Oh yeah, I agree with that, but I was just saying,

52:14

I don't want to belabor the issue, but the view that before the final return of Christ, when he comes and returns in wrath and he rescues his people, catches us up into the air with him on the last day, that before that there have been comings of Christ in history where he has come in judgment, like when the temple was destroyed, like Reverend Buzz Taylor, if you want to just comment briefly on that.

52:46

Yeah, I'm not sure if you're... I think I understand what you're trying to say, yes. First of all, don't stop me mid -sentence.

52:56

That could be dangerous. The term second coming does not appear in Scripture. God many times refers to his coming when it was not a physical coming to the earth, but that is not what we believe concerning the final coming at the end when all are raised.

53:14

I mean, Jesus said that all those that the Father gave him, I will not lose one, but I will raise him on the last day.

53:21

So there is a day coming that will be the last day of history as we know it when Christ returns, and that's going to be a major event, of course, of eschatology, but we're just simply saying the word coming is used in other places in the

53:38

Scriptures that aren't in reference to that. Okay, we're going to have to pick up where we left off,

53:43

Buzz, because we have to go to a break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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01:03:49

This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is

01:03:57

Kenneth R. Samples and we are addressing his book Christian Endgame Careful Thinking About the

01:04:03

End Times and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question about the end times or eschatology, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot com

01:04:12

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01:04:23

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01:04:41

But before we return to the discussion, I just had to read an email I received from Preston, England and that is from my former pastor,

01:04:52

David Campbell who is a native Scotsman who is now pastoring in England after he retired or should

01:05:04

I say just left Carlisle, Pennsylvania where he was pastoring at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania where I am a member and he accepted a call to Preston, England where he is now pastoring and I just thought that this is remarkable it shows you that Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners are everywhere he says,

01:05:28

Dear Chris, There was a young man in church on Sunday. Here's how he knew about us.

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He listens to your show and going back through the files noticed the one about you interviewing me before I left for Preston.

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He listened to it and decided to visit Small World. I think that's pretty amazing that we have a listener in England who visited a church in England as a result of an

01:05:55

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01:08:25

Well we are back with our discussion with Ken Samples on End Times and in studio with me is my co -host

01:08:34

Reverend Buzz Taylor and last thing that we were talking about is that there is a difference of opinion amongst believers about just it's basically a vocabulary or an issue that is not really of major importance it's about using the word cummings if they are not physical and visible and that kind of a thing but let's move on to some of our email questions or listener questions

01:09:05

I should say we have David in Ada, Ohio who says, let me first read the passage that he cites because he asks a question before he cites a passage

01:09:21

I'm going to do it in reverse I'm going to read the passage that he cites which is 1 Corinthians 15 verse 22 -26 for as in Adam all die so also in Christ shall all be made alive but each in his own order

01:09:37

Christ the firstfruits then at his coming those who belong to Christ then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom to God the

01:09:48

Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power for he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet the last enemy to be destroyed is death and the question is when the

01:10:04

Bible says then comes the end what does it mean? Ken? I think most people within an eschatological perspective would look at 1

01:10:17

Corinthians 15 particular passage as kind of a broad context of the great events of the end that is the return of the

01:10:30

Lord the resurrection the judgment the elimination of evil and then comes the end that is all things are then brought forth in a consummation so I think

01:10:46

I would interpret the passage as a broad general reference to the great events that involved and then lead to the full consummation of all things

01:10:59

Then he follows up is there room for a seven year tribulation and is there room for a millennium in regard to these texts well obviously the post -millennialists

01:11:10

I'm sure you could concur Buzz that the reference to for he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet that is a very prominent post -millennial verse yes and of course couple that with Psalm 110 the

01:11:26

Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make all your enemies a footstool for your feet and when it says the final enemy to be defeated is death because when

01:11:34

Christ comes back that is resurrection day when all the dead are raised so death is defeated on that day but Ken if you could yeah

01:11:44

I I am I'm in solid agreement with that I see that again as the general reference to the end of the world the end of the ages which are all of the events that will follow

01:12:00

Christ's literal second coming which is the the climactic final triumphal physical return of Christ well thank you

01:12:10

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and we also have a listener we have

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Jeff who is from Clinton Township, Michigan and Jeff says and I have to enlarge

01:13:08

Jeff's question because it's microscopic and that's another lesson for you listeners out there when you email me if you could make the font really large because I'm going blind alright he says

01:13:23

Jeff in Clinton Township says greetings, thank you Ken for your contribution to my early Christian walk through your helpful articles via CRI the

01:13:32

Christian Research Institute he says will your book about the end times help me to finally adhere to a particular eschatology well

01:13:42

I think you already answered that question Ken after 18 years of new life in Christ I am still confused and undecided, why isn't there just one view well

01:13:52

Ken if you could well I appreciate that Jeff first of all thank you for reading those

01:13:59

Christian Research Institute articles, that was earlier time in my apologetic career and I'm glad they're helpful to you let me put it, let me respond to your question by saying this,

01:14:15

I think that it's ok to have questions about what the

01:14:20

Bible teaches about the end times that is it's ok to have questions and to be thinking about these issues,

01:14:31

I think one thing that my book would do for you is it would give you a summary of the different views, it would touch on what

01:14:39

I think are the strengths and weaknesses of the views and I think at that point you could give greater consideration and do more reading but Jeff it's ok to have differing questions and it's ok to be confused at times about certain things so I think my book would do you a lot of good well thank you

01:15:02

Jeff and you've also won a copy of Christian Endgame, careful thinking about the end times, compliments of our friends at Reason to Believe Press well then he can let us know later on after he's read it if it did drive him to a particular view, that's right you can email us back if you want, but as our guest has said that is not his intention to advocate a particular view and I know senior citizen saints who are very well versed in the

01:15:30

Bible who don't have a solidified definite conclusion about their eschatology other than the primary things that Ken was going through that are essential for an orthodox

01:15:44

Bible believing Christian to adhere to so that may never come on this earth as far as being in full agreement with one of the main one of the main views under the umbrella of biblical eschatology and one of the things

01:16:05

Ken before I go on to some of the most disturbing aspects that you want to warn our listeners about isn't there,

01:16:13

I mean this is not only with eschatology but there is a danger of people who because of the fear of being ostracized or ridiculed by those in the denomination fellowship, brotherhood or congregation they are either a part of already or seeking to join they just automatically will adopt a position that is shared commonly among that group without even really having come to a conviction of it through their own biblical study doesn't this go on too much where someone will say well

01:16:52

I've heard that anything else but pre -mill pre -trib is liberal and heretical so that's what

01:16:57

I am I'm a pre -mill pre -tribber and they'll just adopt something because they are afraid of the way other people are going to view them yeah that's such a very important point

01:17:08

Chris the famous Yale Christian historian

01:17:14

Yoroslav Pelikan he has a statement in his history of Christianity he says the church is always more than a school but the church should never be less than a school

01:17:24

I think that's such an important point Chris in our churches we ought to have classes where we say hey this is a class for people who have questions this is a class for people who are uncertain about some of the distinctive views that are held within Christianity and I think that our churches should be places of learning places of reflection look there are issues that we aren't going to be able to resolve in this world

01:17:59

I mean there are lots of questions I have about the trinity there are lots of questions that I have about Christ being a single person with two natures a divine and human nature some of these questions are very difficult to totally get our minds around and so I think it's important that our churches be places where people can ask questions where they can disagree on secondary issues and that they can be encouraged that hey look we're all learners the word disciple a learner a person who is approaching these issues so yeah you're not going to you're not going to find too many people that have everything worked out in their theology and if they do they might be rather dogmatic and maybe need to come back and look at some of those views so I want to encourage

01:18:54

Jeff and others that you don't have to have everything worked out to be a solid

01:19:00

Christian and have a solid biblical theology and isn't it refreshing that the major confessions and creeds of the faith are clear about what must be believed about the end times but are also vague enough or accepting enough that people can disagree like for instance the

01:19:20

Westminster Confession the 1689 London Baptist Confession the Three Forms of Unity the 39

01:19:27

Articles of Religion that the Anglican Church hold to none of these espouse one specific rigid view of eschatology other than those main things that are undebatable or non -negotiable among Christians the various flavors of eschatology are permitted within these major confessions and creeds that's such a wonderful point

01:19:55

Chris you know we owe a great deal to church history there are great creeds there are great confessional statements there are great

01:20:05

Christian thinkers philosophers, theologians we should be encouraging people rather than reading the shack how about reading

01:20:15

Confessions you know how about reading Calvin's Institutes there are so many good things and I am

01:20:25

I have learned so much from reading the Protestant Confessions and you're right they have a real sense of look we're going to be bold and we're going to be we're going to be very powerful when it comes to the essentials but we're also going to recognize that in some of these areas there are different viewpoints and we're going to allow honest disagreement so we have some great things we can learn from church history and I've learned a great deal from reading the kinds of Confessions and creeds that you just mentioned yeah let me throw in the

01:21:03

Savoy Declaration as well the Congregationalist Declaration Confession well

01:21:10

I want you to spend some time with the warning signs the red lights that should be blinking in our minds when we hear somebody espousing an eschatology that is aberrant or even dangerous and heretical yeah you know this was probably you know it may not have been the central point of my book but it's pretty high up there a real concern

01:21:38

I have and again I alluded to this earlier in our interview that I think that when we're irresponsible when we're not careful we do ourselves and the

01:21:52

Christian Church a disservice when it comes to eschatology. I think that there is an excessive speculation and I think that in many ways there's a lack of accountability and this began a long time ago there are places in church history where people were irresponsible and again let me lay down this idea everybody who's made a verifiable prediction about the second coming has been wrong especially since we are here right now having this conversation that's obviously proof of it that's exactly right and I think that when people have made predictions that have been wrong it's given fodder for the skeptics it has also led to people to wonder well maybe the bible really isn't coherent when it comes to the future of things and I think there are really two examples that I think really touch upon this and I focus on them

01:22:58

I could talk about many others I mean I've been in major churches where major eschatological leaders have said things like the

01:23:07

Lord's gonna come in the 1980s well it's been quite some time since the 1980s and my point here is in the 19th century there was a

01:23:19

New England Baptist minister named William Miller this is known as the Millerite movement, he made a prediction that the

01:23:27

Lord was going to return in the year 1844 he made an earlier prediction earlier in the year then made some corrections and predicted an

01:23:37

October date in 1844 and the people at the time said the day came but the

01:23:43

Lord didn't now not only was this a lot of a lot of doubt being raised about evangelists and preachers teaching about eschatology not only was this known as the

01:24:01

Great Disappointment but out of this kind of speculative interpretation arose a number of religious groups here in America one of them is the

01:24:12

Seventh Day Adventist movement and in my view, I view the Adventists as a

01:24:18

Christian group primarily because they affirm the Trinity, they affirm the

01:24:24

Incarnation of Christ and the Evangelical Adventists in their statement of faith affirm salvation by grace through faith in Christ of course there are

01:24:35

Adventists who hold a more traditionalist view, maybe even a more cultic view, but the

01:24:41

Adventists had a real hard time with this they basically adopted kind of a Millerite interpretation and said that well maybe

01:24:50

Jesus didn't return to earth but maybe he entered into a new door in the temple and began an investigative judgment, well that's led to all kinds of false teachings about salvation by works

01:25:05

I could also mention the Jehovah's Witnesses come out of that 19th century eschatological perspective, and again, it has given skeptics reasons to doubt it has confused

01:25:20

Christians, and then the 20th century is of course seen times, my parents my father was a combat soldier in the

01:25:28

Second World War my parents were Evangelical Christians and they would tell me that in their churches people would speculate about who is the

01:25:39

Antichrist is it Mussolini, is it Hitler, is it Stalin pin the tail on the

01:25:45

Antichrist these kinds of ideas continue and then not too long ago,

01:25:51

Harold Camping who by the way was connected to the Christian Reformed Church that is my own theological connections go back through that,

01:26:03

Harold Camping kind of went off the deep end made a couple different predictions, was wrong both times then kind of retreated from it and this can show you that people can go off the deep end, they can be genuinely

01:26:20

Christian, make deep mistakes that can cause, and I can tell you

01:26:26

I debate atheists I debate skeptical people and they bring these kinds of things up and they say well is this your religion,

01:26:35

Ken? and I can also tell you a lot of people were very confused by Camping's two major predictions, 1994 2011, that both ended up being false, so I'm going to give you a prediction, here's my prediction everybody who has made a falsifiable date, anybody who has made a date that we can confirm or deny has been wrong.

01:27:01

I'm going to tell you the next person who does it is probably going to make the very same mistake.

01:27:07

I think that we ought to focus on the majors I think we ought to be very careful, we should show people that we take scripture seriously we are students of the book we study, we look at history, we don't make these kinds of mistakes, and so you see eschatology running amok both in the cultic world and I hate to say it because I do consider myself a

01:27:33

Protestant Evangelical Christian but the Evangelical world has embraced far too much speculation and has majored in the minors, rather than looking at what

01:27:46

I call mere Christian eschatology. Well, you know, what you were saying, I have now lived long enough to where this is far enough into the past, but I remember a day when if you were to listen to the

01:27:58

Christian media, listen to Christian radio, if you were an Evangelical you were surprised that we reached the year 2000, because one of the things that seemed to be one of the greatest facts was that Jesus of course is going to return before 2000.

01:28:16

Yep, that's right that's right. And we are going to our final break right now, if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:28:27

C -H -R -I -S A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

01:28:36

USA. And by the way, just I remembered that Harold Camping to my knowledge was the first amillennialist to make an end time prediction.

01:28:47

Do you know of any other amillennialists who ever made such an outlandish prediction? Or should I say predictions plural?

01:28:53

Yeah, no, that's a unique point. It is typically I think it's fair to say it's basically largely a pre -millennial phenomenon, but you're right.

01:29:04

He was kind of a bird of a different feather. Yeah, that's a mild way of putting it.

01:29:12

Well, we'll be right back, God willing, after these messages, so don't go away.

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01:36:29

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than a half hour to go is

01:36:35

Ken Samples. We are addressing his book Christian Endgame, Careful Thinking About the

01:36:41

End Times. And we have Robert in Westchester County, New York, who wants to know,

01:36:48

Ken, would you join any church that insisted that you adopt one specific eschatological view in order to qualify for membership?

01:37:01

Yeah, that's boy, that's that can be a very difficult situation.

01:37:08

I'll tell you what, my view would be that a church shouldn't require you to affirm a secondary point of view.

01:37:21

You know, when it comes to the millennium, when it comes to these eschatological positions, and very good people on all sides of the issue,

01:37:32

I don't think it's a healthy thing for a pastor or for the elders of the church to tell you that when it comes to a secondary issue, you have to affirm this to be part of the church.

01:37:45

I think it's fine for them to say, look, our pastor, you know, the church perspective is largely a -mill, or post -mill, or pre -mill, but, you know, you can be a

01:37:57

Christian in good standing, you can be a member in good standing, and hold, you know, differing views.

01:38:03

Of course you need to do it with respect, with you know, deference to various people in authority, but that would be my view.

01:38:13

I don't think churches should insist upon, for membership, people hold secondary positions.

01:38:19

They can say the church holds this view, or people do, that's my take,

01:38:24

I don't know what you guys think. I agree with you. I would be more tolerant of a church that said that we will not permit people to be in a teaching office unless they agree with us on our pre -millennial stance or our a -millennial stance or our post -millennial stance, but when they go really to the extreme of insisting on that for membership, then you're going to have people who are pretending, like we were talking before.

01:38:49

They're just going to pretend to believe in something just so they can join, something that they want to join. I think more times than not it would be the church is not allowing the other viewpoint to come in instead of my deciding whether I would join a church of another opinion.

01:39:02

Right. Well thank you Robert, you are also getting a free copy of Christian Endgame, Careful Thinking About the

01:39:09

End Times by Kenneth Richard Samples, compliments of Reason to Believe Press or RTB Press and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service dot com,

01:39:26

CV BBS dot com, so keep your eye open in the mail for a package with the label

01:39:32

CVBBS dot com. Chris, I was looking before the break and I finally found what

01:39:37

I was looking for. Just to be fair, that I have here on March 10, 2012

01:39:43

Harold Camping did repent of his constant predictions and he promised that he would never do it again and of course he has since died, but I think he went on to some worse things.

01:39:57

He refused to recant his view that Christ had become the enemy of the church.

01:40:03

Which is even more of a serious I was going to say he went on to some worse things but at least when it came to his predictions

01:40:09

I think he saw the error of his ways. Well, he couldn't help but see the errors of those ways because Well, yeah,

01:40:16

I didn't even get a headache on that day. You know what I mean? It's just one of those things Yeah, yeah. It was interesting how,

01:40:22

I think Ken you would agree with this the importance of confessional

01:40:28

Christianity because Harold Camping although he was in the Christian Reformed Church before becoming a real extreme heretic he was always, even in the

01:40:41

CRC he was anti -credal and he believed that the only thing that you should use to study the teachings of God and to follow were the scriptures without any other aids such as confessions or creeds now obviously all of us on the show right now believe in sola scriptura that the church has only one infallible inerrant authority but we all believe that it is valuable to have a confession which is merely just a summary of what we believe the

01:41:14

Bible teaches but Harold Camping jettisoned all creeds and confessions and therefore he actually wound up he wound up abandoning

01:41:26

Calvinism and the Reformed faith altogether and even became very bizarre in his understanding of the

01:41:33

Trinity. He was really more of a modalist he adopted a view of the crucifixion of Christ that resembled patripassionism and just some strange things he even rejected and this was revealed to me when

01:41:46

I was interviewing him on my radio show during a debate that he had on my show with Dr.

01:41:53

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries he revealed on my show that he did not believe that one needed to have faith in Christ to be saved and I was shocked by that and that came about when he because of the fact that he believed that the end of the world was going to come within a matter of about a month or two before or should

01:42:20

I say about a month or two after our interview I said to him that the book of Revelation says that those out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation are going to be worshipping the

01:42:35

Lamb and missionaries will tell you that there are un -evangelized tribes right now who have never heard the name of Christ and I said to him, are you going to tell me that all these tribes on the face of the earth are going to be evangelized within the next month or so and he actually said, well you don't need to believe in Christ to be saved.

01:42:58

I was like, what? He said they didn't believe in Christ in the Old Testament.

01:43:04

All you need to do is cry out to God and of course believe in everything that he believed and it was interesting how he was anti -confessional and anti -credal and yet wrote books and told people to read them.

01:43:18

It doesn't make any sense. I think, Chris I think you've articulated it well you know, ultimately his eschatological errors were not nearly as bad as some of the broader theological errors that he reached near the end of his life and you know look, he started out in the

01:43:38

Christian Reformed Church. I knew people who went to church with him. They said that in the beginning he was a solid

01:43:45

Bible teacher and he reached a point where he was kind of a cult leader if you will, and to deny elements of the

01:43:54

Trinity and those things are very serious and while it's true that he admitted that he was wrong, you know, once the toothpaste is out of the tube how many people were really hurt by that?

01:44:09

I mean, I can tell you that skeptics love those kinds of things and that's why we have to be accountable we have to be careful and the church should be a place of education where we're educating people

01:44:25

I don't think we have to put a lot of pressure on people. If Amillennialism is the best view, then make your case.

01:44:32

If Post Mill is the best view, then make your case If Primo is really the superior view, make your case, respond to the objections, and I think once you understand the views and you come away with your view then you can have a lot of integrity

01:44:49

Hey, I've studied the field I've read some of the best material I feel confident in this view

01:44:55

I'm not going to judge others but, you know, we need to encourage people to be thoughtful, to be reflective, you know, to be discerning and that's what

01:45:06

I like about your show you are trying to help people to navigate that system and become very responsible, thoughtful Christian citizens of the

01:45:17

Kingdom of God I want you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to this topic but before I do that I guess

01:45:30

I will allow a question from a first time questioner in Bryan, Ohio Scott.

01:45:38

He has a question that's not really on the subject but I'll let you answer that briefly if you would like to He says, please ask

01:45:47

Ken if he worked closely with Dr. Walter Martin while at CRI and if he has any amusing stories he may have to share about him

01:45:59

Well, I could tell you that Walter Martin was one of the great Christian men I've ever known in my life

01:46:06

He had an amazing sense of humor There's a lot of stories

01:46:12

I could tell you about Walter I remember the first time that I worked at CRI, you know

01:46:21

Walter had diabetes and he had a lot of circulation problems

01:46:26

That was really the reason I think by and large he had a heart attack at such a young age 60 years old when he died and that was a heavy toll for all of us because we kind of saw him as our mentor but I remember the first time he was at a doctor's office and Walter wore a toupee and I walked in and he was bald headed and I thought, boy,

01:46:50

I thought I was working for Walter Martin and Chuck Smith shows up Kind of a humorous antidote but I have to tell you

01:46:59

Walter was just a remarkable person and I learned so much from him and I wouldn't be doing the work

01:47:08

I am today if it wasn't for Walter Martin I think that John Ankerberg said that Walter used to play practical jokes with his toupee and leave them in various humorous places in various humorous places unexpected places but one of the funniest things

01:47:25

I remember about Walter Martin, I've never met him but watching him on the

01:47:31

John Ankerberg show was when he was debating Mitch Pacwa, the Roman Catholic priest there was a scene or a part of the discussion where Mitch Pacwa said,

01:47:44

I will be the first to admit that there are popes in hell and Walter Martin jumped up on his feet and said pointing at Mitch Pacwa, he said it!

01:47:53

He said it! You know, they became good friends, that's how

01:48:00

I met Mitch and we debate all the time but we like and respect each other

01:48:08

Yes, and I also respect Mitch, although I do as you do, I have some very very serious differences of opinion that revolve around the gospel and so on especially but he is,

01:48:20

I think, a man of integrity and I have enjoyed his demeanor during debates probably more than any other

01:48:29

Roman Catholic that I have involved in a debate that I have orchestrated but let me please have about five minutes from you where you will really uninterrupted summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

01:48:46

Yeah, thank you Chris and thank you Buzz as well for being with me today I really do appreciate being on your program

01:48:55

You know, again, the reason I wrote Christian Endgame, a subtitle Careful Thinking About the

01:49:01

End Times I'm not trying to convince anybody of any particular position,

01:49:07

I try to fairly and carefully set out the different points of view I try to educate people about why eschatology can be challenging, apocalyptic literature is not the easiest area of scripture to understand, there have always been differences about how the

01:49:26

Old and New Testament relate to one another, whether it's a covenantal view or a dispensational view, and millennial interpretations, you've got good people on all sides of this perspective, so I'm really trying to be fair -minded

01:49:41

I'm trying to educate people and I think the things that I really want people to come away with is we need to move away from speculation we need to stop the sin of date setting we need to ground ourselves in solid principles of biblical interpretation and you know things that I really spend a bit of time in the book talking about is you know, whether we all have an agreement, if we're all mill or post -mill or pre -mill what can we agree upon, what are some of the foundational near -Christian eschatology, so I really try to emphasize that point of view because basically

01:50:26

I am a Christian who likes to bring Christians together I am an apologist,

01:50:32

I do debate people, I am engaged in polemics, but when it comes right down to it,

01:50:38

I like it when Christians can ask, where is the common ground let's build on that let's use the common ground then to lead us to areas where we might differ, but do it in a principled, respectful way kind of keeping the golden rule of apologetics but I also talk about in the book, you know the believer's blessed hope

01:51:02

I think eschatology should teach us something about you know, we're really citizens of two kingdoms, if you will we live here in this temporal world

01:51:15

I happen to be an American I'm living here in America I'm part of the world in which

01:51:21

I live I have responsibilities to my family I have responsibilities to my church, to my employer

01:51:29

I talk about how to be responsible, but also looking to that blessed hope we've just come through a very controversial political season

01:51:38

I think what this illustrates is as strongly as we might feel or think about political issues our ultimate hope is in the kingdom of God it is in Christ and so I talk about how to be responsible you know,

01:51:56

I'm not saying eschatology is unimportant I'm not saying that prophecy is unimportant,

01:52:02

I'm simply encouraging people to be careful to be thoughtful, to be well read, you know to get perspective, and I don't feel that I need to write a book and tell somebody, here is what

01:52:15

I think, I tried to give you the best sources I could, I tried to be as fair as I could looking at the strengths and weaknesses, and I'm going to let the person decide, hey this is what

01:52:28

I read, and this is where I take it, and of course I have a marvelous bibliography of very good books that people can read further on this issue but, you know, it's important that Christians learn how to disagree with each other that we show each other respect that we realize that people are made in the image of God and they are our brothers, even if they hold a different eschatological point of view.

01:52:55

So, Chris and Buzz, thank you for having me on I thoroughly enjoy your program,

01:53:00

Chris, and it's a pleasure to talk to you about these important issues. Yes, and the pleasure is mine as well, brother, and wouldn't you say that one of the crucial things that is involved in eschatology and detecting whether somebody's eschatology is aberrant or dangerous is if it radically affects the behavior of individuals in a negative way that detracts them from Christian duty.

01:53:34

For instance, if someone is so convinced that Christ is going to return within their lifetime if they quit their job, if they start to neglect providing for their family, if they become lackadaisical in any way when it comes to their duties as a

01:53:56

Christian, and when they think that there is no sense in polishing the brass on a sinking ship, when they not only perhaps are lackadaisical about their personal responsibilities in their church or home, but also in regard to the nation where they live.

01:54:18

These kinds of things, if they are just reduced in their intensity to a dangerous level, or if they are abandoned altogether, aren't these very, very dangerous signs that somebody's eschatology is false?

01:54:37

I couldn't have said it better, Chris. I have met Christians who are consumed with anxiety and worry.

01:54:44

I have met Christians that, you know, they react in what

01:54:50

I think is an irresponsible way. I think eschatology should give us confidence.

01:54:56

It should give us hope. We should recognize that the Lord is sovereign and His timetable is perfect, and that, you know,

01:55:05

I want to be a responsible citizen in the here and the now, and I also want to be faithful to my gospel calling and to that next world, the already not yet.

01:55:17

So, absolutely. You know, I think we should ask ourselves questions. What does our theology produce within people?

01:55:26

You know, and you know, I'm a Reformed Christian. I'm a good

01:55:31

Augustinian Reformed guy, and I believe in grace. I believe in sola gratia.

01:55:38

That means I also want to be gracious to other people, including people whom I disagree.

01:55:46

And we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island who wants to know, can you recommend your favorite books that represent the varying primary eschatological views?

01:55:59

Yeah, very good. Well, on premillennialism, on the historic premill,

01:56:06

I would pick a book by George Eldon Ladd. On a dispensational perspective,

01:56:12

I'd pick a book like by Robert Soce, who was one of my teachers at Talbot School of Theology.

01:56:19

On the amillennial perspective, I would pick anything by Anthony Houkouma. The Bible in the

01:56:25

Future would be a great book. And then John Jefferson Davis has Christ's Victorious Kingdom.

01:56:32

I interviewed him on this program on that book. In fact, he was a part of the eschatology marathon that I had on the show.

01:56:41

He writes about postmillennialism, and I think he does a very good job. So those would be some of the people that I would recommend you give reading to.

01:56:50

And when Buzz is done with his book, give it a read. Yes. Yeah, other than your own book,

01:56:55

Buzz, do you have a recommendation? Well, two that have influenced me a lot was Paradise Restored by David Chilton and He Shall Have Dominion by Ken Gentry.

01:57:06

And The Beast of Revelation by Ken Gentry. Oh yeah, I've read dozens of books. And actually,

01:57:13

I started with a book that I remember not agreeing with and I hardly remember what I read in it because it was so long ago now.

01:57:20

The first book I ever read on the subject was Jesus Has Returned to Planet Earth from Ivan Groh, I believe was the guy's name.

01:57:26

And it didn't so much settle my theology as it upset it, my eschatology.

01:57:32

And I spent years in limbo reading Seventh Day Adventist, all kinds of anything I get my hands on for years, just trying to figure out where am

01:57:39

I going with this. Well, I guess we'll find out when you finish your book. And that may be the last time

01:57:45

Buzz is ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Ready. Right. I'd like to recommend

01:57:52

Dr. Sam Waldron's book. He is a Reformed Baptist Amillennialist and he has written a book,

01:58:00

The End Times Made Simple. How Could Everybody Be So Wrong About Biblical Prophecy?

01:58:07

And that you could get through Solid Ground Christian Books, one of the sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:58:15

Solid -Ground -Books .com Solid -Ground -Books .com Well, I know,

01:58:21

Ken, that you have books that can be purchased through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com

01:58:32

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service .com

01:58:38

And you also have written the book that we have been addressing today, Christian End Game, Careful Things About the

01:58:46

End Times, Careful Thinking About the End Times. That can be obtained through Reasons .org,

01:58:54

which is the website for Reasons to Believe, Reasons .org. Any other contact information you'd like to share? Yeah, you know,

01:59:00

I have a new book out, God Among Sages, that I'm very happy about on Amazon, and thank you,

01:59:09

Chris, for making these books available. It's a real honor to be with you and to talk about these issues, so thanks again.

01:59:17

And Ken, God willing, will be back on the program on Tuesday, April 25th, so mark your calendar for the next time

01:59:24

Ken Samples is on Iron Sharpens Iron. I want to thank everybody for who listened, and by the way, the last couple of people that sent in questions, you are also getting free copies of Christian End Game, and I want to thank you for taking the time to write in.

01:59:40

I want to thank the Rev. Buzz Taylor for being my co -host today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater