WWUTT 2380 Q&A Disqualified Pastors, Is Empathy Biblical, Part 2 of Speaking in Tongues

What sorts of things could make a man permanently disqualified from being a pastor? Is empathy a biblical concept and how is it different from sympathy? And what was the star of Bethlehem? The answers to these questions when we understand the text.

This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary to help encourage your time of the word. A production of Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Casa Grande, Arizona. Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .wutt .com.

Here once again is Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, Becky.

You're welcome.

I started Proverbs chapter 10 without you last week.

Aww. So.

Sad.

Proverbs 10 and the Righteous Who Do Not Go Hungry

Here's the next few verses in Proverbs 10. The Lord does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked. A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich.

He who gathers in summer is a prudent son, but he who sleeps in harvest is a son who brings shame. So the one who is wise and who seeks after the will of God is going to work. He's going to work and do well.

And those who do so in the righteousness of Christ, God blesses. He does not let the righteous go hungry. But as I had mentioned last week, opening with those first two verses of Proverbs, we who are in Christ Jesus wear his righteousness and now desire to do those works that are pleasing unto the Lord.

Amen.

This is the end of the week edition of When We Understand the Text, and we take questions from the listeners. You can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com or send us a voicemail.

Go to www .utt .com, click on that voicemail tab, and then you can record a message either from your phone or from your laptop, from your computer. I've got some emails I'm going to get to here. Babe, do we have any voicemails today?

We do. We have a voicemail from John in North Carolina, and he has a comment about something you said on the podcast on Wednesday.

All right. Let's hear it.

Hey, Pastor Gabe and Becky. This is John from North Carolina. Really enjoy the podcast. I don't get to listen to it as much because I'm not driving over the road anymore, but I still love it. On the Wednesday podcast, when you were going through Luke chapter 10 and you were talking about how God is sovereign over time and exists in eternity, about halfway through you had mentioned something about how just because God started everything in the beginning doesn't mean He took His hands off of it.

I know you've already referenced in this area in Colossians before, but it really sounds like Colossians 1, 16 and 17 would be the perfect way to describe that because God did not start us like a watch and let us wind down.

He keeps His hands on us, lest the entire universe fly apart. God bless you guys. Continue with the good work, and a lot of us out here are praying for you guys. Bye-bye now.

Oh, thank you so much, John.

Aw, thanks.

Yeah, so Colossians chapter 1, I mentioned verse 15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. So talking about how God has given all things to Christ, and He has authority over all.

Yes.

John referenced verses 16 and 17. If I had just kept reading, kept going there. For by Him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.

All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Mm-hmm.

So yes, as we reference Jesus Christ, who has authority over all, even He is holding all things together.

Yes.

He who created all things holds it all in His hands.

And thankfully, because if it were in my hands, it'd be a total disaster.

He keeps you from flying apart, babe.

Yes.

Yes, He does.

Coming apart at the seams. So thank you for that reminder, John.

Yes.

That was wonderful. And praying for you too, brother, because we know you've been listening for a long time, and we appreciate your encouragement. This next question comes from Adam in Canada. He says, Dear Pastor Gabe, I know your position on a pastor who commits adultery that he is permanently disqualified from his office.

And I think you've explained that well. I'm in agreement. I have a question about two other scenarios. You're going to know about whom this question applies, but the who is irrelevant. I'd like to get an answer regardless of recent events.

Okay.

So not everybody may know where this is coming from, but I do understand what inspired him to ask this question. If there is a pastor who is single, and he fornicates with a woman in his congregation who is also unmarried, but they do not get married, is that pastor permanently disqualified from being a pastor?

What if he sleeps with a woman in his congregation outside of marriage, but then they get married, as in Exodus 22, 16? This was not an offense punishable by death in ancient Israel. Surely there must be discipline of some kind, but do you think that man could still be a pastor again sometime in the future?

Sexual Sin and Permanent Disqualification from the Pastorate

Well, you've got two different questions going on here, Adam, two different scenarios. I appreciate you sending us this email and asking this question. So you have a pastor who is single. He sleeps with a woman in his congregation.

We call that fornication. They are both unmarried. So we wouldn't call that adultery, because that's sleeping with someone else's spouse. Or if you're married and then you sleep with somebody else, that would be adultery.

These two are not married. They're not married to each other. They're not married to anyone else. That pastor sleeps with a woman in his congregation. Is he permanently disqualified from being a pastor?

The answer is yes, most definitely yes. And on the same grounds that we would say a pastor who has committed adultery is also unqualified. As said in Proverbs, he who commits adultery lacks sense. He who does it destroys himself.

He will get wounds and dishonor, and his disgrace will not be wiped away. That's Proverbs 6, 32 to 33. So that is to say that there is something about sexual sin that is different than any other sin. Even in 1 Corinthians 6, that sexual sin is sin you commit against your own body.

Every other sin you commit outside the body, but sexual sin is a sin that is committed against your own body. And so on the same grounds that we would say a pastor is permanently disqualified who commits adultery, so it is the same as if he fornicates with somebody in his congregation, or outside his congregation, either way.

It's sex outside of marriage. And he is now no longer above reproach. That even among unbelievers, even unbelievers are aware of the sin that he's done. And even unbelievers understand there's something about that that's not right.

And here you have a Christian man, a pastor, and you Christians say that sex is meant only for marriage. Well, your pastor has had sex outside of marriage, and you don't seem to think that's any big deal.

He's not above reproach. And that's the first qualification of a pastor in 1 Timothy 3 and in Titus 1. So he has to be above reproach, and he's no longer there.

And he's, I mean, he's no longer trustworthy at that point.

Exactly.

Is he going to give everybody the okay to do that in his congregation?

Yeah, right.

And then that just leads to more and more sin.

How can he sit in that seat and issue judgment or church discipline when he himself is guilty of the same sin? Now can he be forgiven that sin?

Of course.

Oh, absolutely. No question about it. He should undergo church discipline. He should be restored to the body. But that doesn't mean that he can be a pastor again. That's different. And I've had those kinds of conversations with people.

Like if you're saying that he can't be a pastor again, are you therefore saying that he is not forgiven? No, that's not what I'm saying.

Yeah.

He just can't hold the office.

Right. He's not qualified.

Right.

There are plenty of people who aren't qualified, and they aren't qualified for any number of reasons.

Yeah.

It may not be because of sin. You know, I'll tell you, this would have been, oh, over 10 years ago, there was a friend of mine in our church in Kansas that we approached to become a deacon because he was such a great servant in the church, served in all different kinds of ways.

And so I came up to him and I said, hey, what would you think about becoming a deacon? And he said, can't do it. I've been married three times. And so he withdrew his name from consideration by his own conviction in his heart that he could not hold that position, hold that office, and be a good witness in the church.

And I sure appreciate that, that that was his conviction, and he decided to withdraw his name on his own. And so that didn't mean that he couldn't be a servant anymore in the church.

Right.

Of course not.

He just wasn't going to hold that office position. And so a pastor who is guilty of this, who has done this, and it is known, and he is therefore no longer above reproach, then he is disqualified from his office.

Again, still can be forgiven, still should be restored to the church.

Yeah.

But just can't be in that position as a pastor anymore.

Now, what if they get married? What if the two that have the relations outside of marriage end up getting married?

Right. Because what does Exodus 22, 16 say? If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, I'm going on to verse 17, he shall pay money equal to the bride price for virgins.

So the father can refuse, can say, no, you don't get to have her. Or I guess in that scenario, even she can say, no, I'm not going to marry this man. So again, they have had sex outside of marriage, but they do get married.

And that seems to go along with Exodus 22, 16. If a man seduces a virgin, not betrothed, lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and then make her his wife. So they haven't done an offense that's punishable by death.

Whereas adultery is an offense that's punishable by death. But here in this scenario, when you're talking about a person who is a pastor, I would still say in that circumstance, he's unqualified. Now, there's somebody that's probably going to disagree with me on that because it's not the same level of offenses, adultery.

But again, you're still looking at this from the standpoint of, is he above reproach? And he's used his position as a pastor and has seduced a woman in his congregation. If we're going to go with Exodus 22, 16, because that's the scenario, he seduced her.

Right.

And though, even though they get married, he's just not trustworthy anymore.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. He doesn't have enough self-control to wait for them to get married. Even if it was like, what do you call that, eloping or flash marriage or whatever we want to call it.

They just suddenly get married.

Here, I've reconciled the problem. I've gone ahead and married her.

There you go. And then, I mean, there's so many ways that you can make it better before it goes worse.

You can whitewash it. Maybe that's kind of what you're looking for.

I mean, I still don't know if I would go to a church with a pastor who eloped, didn't have the patience to wait for a real marriage unless that was like their choice.

Well, you're talking wedding here at this point.

Yeah, wedding. I said marriage. I meant wedding. They're both real marriage. But I mean, you know, like just waiting for the process of inviting guests and making sure family meets and, you know, like easing the family into it.

And that's the whole purpose of a wedding is just easing your family into meeting a new person.

Yeah, it's to exchange these vows before God and witnesses.

Well, that too, but I mean, the long process isn't just to like spend money.

Oh, yeah, definitely not.

It's for the family.

The night before Becky and I got married, we were like, let's just go elope.

Ah, serious.

We're done with this.

We were done.

We were so done. But at the same time, we had waited until like the wedding night, you know, night before wedding night or night before the wedding. I said that wrong.

To say that we were going to go elope?

To say that we were going to go elope, yes.

Yeah, right. And that was just because of how crazy everything was in the planning process or. But anyway, yeah, that's that's off subject from this, really. I mean, with the.

No, I mean, what I what I was saying is that, you know, if the if the pastor does not have the patience to wait for a marriage.

The self-control.

Or for a wedding to happen, the self-control, then then what. What's to say. He's not going to make another decision. That's rash?

Well, yeah, he's brought a reproach upon himself and upon his office. How is anybody going to trust him?

Yeah.

In that position, it's still sin, even though you. I would reconcile. Right. I would certainly agree that it's not as bad as adultery.

Right.

But he still brought a reproach upon himself and he's no longer above reproach.

Right.

So that makes him unqualified. And therefore, I mean, he's given up the opportunity to be able to hold that kind of position and make a good witness out of it.

Right.

And again, he can be forgiven. He can be restored to his church.

Yes.

He's just not going to have the opportunity to hold that position as a pastor again. This next question is anonymously submitted, but given the name Distant Observer.

OK.

Hey, Pastor Gabe, what are your thoughts on empathy? I'm sorry. Let me let me read this another way. What are the thoughts on the empathy, sympathy and biblical compassion debate that is going.

On?

It seems to be a fight over semantics or like you're just arguing over the meaning of words. But I wanted to get your insight on this. I believe Doug Wilson and others went over this a couple of years ago, but it seems to be making the rounds on social media, for example, chorus in the chaos.

And I guess I know what chorus in the chaos is, but appreciate your your question. So you have empathy.

Empathy, Sympathy, and Biblical Compassion

That's where they come back around to the same arguments.

Chorus in the chaos.

Yeah.

Well, it has capital letters as if it's the title of something. So I'm not sure. I don't know what that means. So so the difference between these words, you have empathy, sympathy and biblical compassion or just simply compassion.

Now the latter two words, sympathy and compassion are actually in the Bible. The first word empathy is not in the Bible.

Correct.

In fact, this is a very ambiguous term. It is a word that did not even exist in the English lexicon until the beginning of the 20th century. And it was a psychologist that came up with this word empathy.

Mainly what empathy means is that you have the ability to feel what someone else feels, which is impossible. You can't do that. It's impossible for you to feel what someone else is feeling. Even if you go through the exact same scenario, it's different as someone else, you're still going to feel and handle it differently.

It might be relatable.

Sure.

But you're still experiencing that on a different level than somebody else experiences that.

Yeah.

Because all of your past comes into play on that event. So what you've experienced in the past is much different than what somebody else has experienced in the past, too.

Or even differences in the sexes. Personality. Like, say you and I were in a car accident together, we're both going to process that accident differently.

Much differently.

Yes.

And even though we were in the same accident, who was in the driver's seat and who was in the passenger seat?

Right.

Or, God forbid, a much more morbid scenario, let's say you and I lost a child. We lost the same child, but you and I are still going to process that differently.

Yes.

We're going to experience that differently.

Right.

For sure.

There are things we're certainly sharing with one another, but we can't actually know what the other one is feeling.

Right.

And here in a marriage, you know, we're constantly asking each other, what are you feeling?

Yeah.

What do you think about this?

Married for 15 years and we're still trying to figure that out. So, this thing of empathy is really kind of made up. The way that it's used in society right now, it's almost kind of trying to victim shame somebody else.

Like, you need to be able to feel what I feel.

Is that where the silent treatment comes into play? Like, is that when that started?

I don't know.

You should know what I'm feeling right now.

I'm sure that's been going on in marriage long before the 20th century. I don't think that's only a century old. If you read fantasy fiction or like science fiction or something like that, sometimes there will be a character that is an empath and they have the ability to know what someone else feels.

Not the same thing as reading their mind.

Yeah, exactly. Right. It's not the same thing as telepathy or mind reading. I think in Star Trek The Next Generation, wasn't Deanna Troi an empath?

Yeah, I think so.

She had that ability to feel someone else's feelings. So that's a thing of fiction. That's not something that we can actually do.

Now, was that just emotional feelings or was that like, I'm hurting physically?

No, that's emotions. Being able to sense somebody's emotions. Not I can tell your arm hurts today.

Yeah, I was just curious, you know?

Yeah, we're just talking about...

Okay.

I think we all got that. Just read the room.

Yeah, that's right. Very good. Sometimes you just need to be able to read the room, guys. That's not empathy. It's just common sense.

Sorry. I got tickled.

Okay.

So with the latter two words, with sympathy and compassion, these two are almost synonymous with one another. But these, again, are words that we find in the Bible. So for example, as we're going through a study in Luke, it was a few weeks ago, we were in Luke chapter seven.

And when Jesus came upon a certain town, there was a funeral procession that was coming out of that town. And there was a man that was on the beer, which is that thing they're carrying out with the body on it.

And his mother, who was a widow, is walking alongside the beer. So she no longer has a husband and she doesn't have her son anymore. And it says in Luke 7, 13, when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her and said, do not weep.

He feels for her, but he doesn't feel what she's feeling, which are two different things. We're about to come up on the parable of the good Samaritan, which is the parable I'm going to be reading on Monday.

So in Luke 10, remember as the Samaritan comes along the beaten man on the side of the road, it says that when he saw him, he had compassion. He doesn't feel what that man is feeling. The man's unconscious, but he has compassion for him.

He feels for him. He is moved to help him and love him. And so treats his wombs, puts him on his donkey, takes him to the inn where he can rest and get well, pays for his lodging. And so this is compassion.

And then we also have the word sympathy that's used in scripture. Consider the words of Peter in 1 Peter 3, 8. Finally, all of you have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

So we are instructed to sympathize with one another, but there's nothing in the Bible that says empathize. And I think distant observer, like you said, there are some semantic arguments that go on with this because a lot of times when somebody uses the word empathy, what they really mean is sympathy.

Right.

Definitely.

They're saying something that's more along the lines of compassion rather than feeling what somebody else feels. And so in that case, if you know somebody who uses the word empathy, don't just automatically go, oh, well, you're using a word that the Bible doesn't even use anyway.

In context, figure out what they're talking about.

Right.

Have some grace.

Yeah.

Sympathize with them a little bit.

Show them grace and compassion.

That's right. And understand what they mean when they use that word empathy. I remember

And then if they're using it correctly, then maybe there can be a little lovingly correcting.

Yeah, right. Correct their use of the word, application of the word. I remember somebody presenting this scenario as a good way to distinguish between empathy and sympathy.

Okay.

So if somebody fell over the side of a cliff and they're holding on for dear life and you run over to help them up, but you don't have the strength to be able to pull them up.

Okay.

But you'll stay there with them until help can arrive.

Okay.

That's sympathy.

Okay, yeah.

That's having sympathy on that person or having compassion on them. Empathy would be that you get down off the cliff and come down alongside them so that you're both hanging there together. That would be more like empathy, but now you're both in trouble.

In trouble, yes.

And you're less likely to be able to help the other person because you've now put yourself in a position that is unable to help the other.

Yeah.

So like the Samaritan doesn't beat himself up and lay down with the beaten man on the road.

That would be awkward.

He has sympathy for him and helps him and provides aid for him. So that would be kind of a way that you could distinguish between the two. Anybody have any other opinions that they would like to share on that, feel free to send me an email.

Yeah.

I'll take any correction on that if you need to offer it. When we understand the text at gmail .com. This next one is from Mike in Tennessee. Greetings, Pastor Gabe and Babe.

It's been a while.

We haven't heard that one in a while. I appreciate your ministry and gain insights from your podcast. I'm sorry this note is so long. You may not want to share the whole thing. I'll cut a part of it out, but we'll get to most of this here.

My daughter gave me your book, 25 Christmas Myths and What the Bible Says. I learned a few things I had not thought about. One that I did not agree with was that the star of Bethlehem was a special appearance pointing to the exact home where Jesus lived and not an astronomical occurrence in the heavens like up there in space, out in the universe.

He says, I was wondering if you saw the 2007 documentary by Rick Larson about the star of Bethlehem. Larson used a program called Starry Night and nine criteria for the star that appeared in the Bible, and he found evidence of star convergences that fit the nine criteria.

The one area that you had mentioned that you had an issue with is the location of the star over Bethlehem. In reading Matthew 2, 10 through 11, it appears that the star pointed to the house Jesus was.

In.

Larson takes it to mean that the star was over Bethlehem, and they rejoiced in knowing that they were on the right track. Again, thank you for your ministry. Mike from Tennessee. Well, I appreciate it, Mike.

Well, one of the jokes that I've made in a what video, and I'm pretty sure I included this in the book as well, but the idea of star convergences as being an explanation for the star of Bethlehem, whether you're talking about a star convergence or like two planets get real close to each other so they appear brighter in the night sky.

One of the jokes that I made about this is that it's not a very bright idea because they're literally not very bright.

Yeah.

Well, that's true.

Yeah.

They're not too much brighter in the sky than like the North Star.

Yeah.

They just sparkle a little bit brighter.

Yeah.

That's about it.

Yeah.

So there's no way that could point.

Right. How does that point to something?

Yeah.

How does that have light?

Like a spotlight kind of thing.

And when you're going from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, which is a distance of like four miles, I mean, how are the stars above really going to change their location that much that you finally arrive at the house in Bethlehem and you go, oh, here we are, because the star is right there overhead.

Yeah.

It was over your head when you were in Jerusalem.

I also have a hard time with people questioning that it's like making sense of it out of sciency things because it's a miracle.

Yeah, it was.

And so to like, I don't know, I feel like it's almost downplaying a miracle, you know, trying to like explain it in our terms and our world. It's God, you know, you can do anything.

Exactly.

So now, as I said in the book, what was the star of Bethlehem? We don't know for sure.

Right.

Whether, you know, some people like to portray it as an angel that was shining a light. Or was it just a light that God set in the sky? We don't know. But it would not have been high enough in the heavens to be an astronomical occurrence.

Otherwise the king would have known.

Well the king would have known it would have been recorded even among other civilizations.

That's true.

At that time. And we really don't have any record of that.

Interesting.

Okay.

I hadn't considered that part.

So the Magi were definitely looking for a star and they saw one. But it was unusual.

Yes.

It was an unusual star for a particular time and place. And God used that star to guide them to the place where they found the Christ child and they bowed down and worshiped him.

Amen.

So even the Magi came to understand that by faith in Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven our sins and have everlasting life with God.

Amen.

They read the scriptures to know who they were looking for when they came looking for the Christ child in Bethlehem. And so my friends, that is the gospel message. He who died for our sins rose again from the dead.

Whoever believes in him will not perish, but we will live forever with God. And we want to leave you with that message today.

Amen.

So if you want to pick up the second part of what I had talked about last week with regards to the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues, responding to a video that was put out by Remnant Radio, that's going to be in the second part of this podcast.

If you're a podcast listener, just hang tight and that part's coming up. If you're listening to us on the radio, you can find the podcast online at www .utt .com or just look for WWUTT on whatever podcast app you like to use.

Yeah.

Babe, thanks for joining me this week.

You're welcome.

God bless you guys. In Matthew 2, we read about wise men known as Magi following a star from Persia to Judea in search of the Christ child. The Magi were king makers who studied many ancient writings.

600 years earlier, the Jews had been exiled into Babylon and then Persia. So these Magi had the Hebrew prophecies foretelling the birth of the king. Moses said a star shall come out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel.