Death Ethics - Suicide, Euthanasia, Capital Punishment

Sovereign Grace Family Church

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August 28, 2023

00:00: Well, good evening everyone.
00:01: We are continuing tonight in our study of Christian ethics and tonight we are in class four, which is death ethics.
00:12: Each week we do a different ethical topic.
00:14: Last week was life ethics.
00:16: We looked at abortion and genetics and the subject of contraception and birth control.
00:23: Tonight we're going to be looking at the subjects of suicide, euthanasia, and capital punishment, therefore the the topic of death.
00:33: The teacher for the evening is Dr.
00:36: Burt Jordan.
00:37: Burt has been a member of our church now for a while.
00:41: I don't know, for about a year I guess or so or more, and Burt was actually one of the men who founded or was responsible for founding the seminary that I went to.
00:51: So he's been teaching for a long time, and I look forward to him teaching us tonight.
00:56: He is currently a school teacher at Lighthouse Christian School, and he said that he's looking forward to teaching tonight, and I'm looking forward to hearing him.
01:06: So without further delay, here's Dr.
01:08: Burt.
01:11: All right.
01:13: Mike, would you lead us in prayer? I will.
01:44: All right, so tonight we are looking at these three subjects.
01:48: Naturally, as we look last, as we look any week, and I do admire Dr.
01:53: Foskey, and sometimes I hate to get all that in.
01:56: I hope we can do this tonight.
01:57: But we all know that it's a lot to cram in in an hour and a half with a little break in between.
02:05: So anyway, we're going to be looking at suicide, euthanasia, and capital punishment.
02:10: I think sometimes the reason I was assigned to do this course is I'm closer to the euthanasia as anybody probably, but anybody, you know, but anyhow, I kind of look out out there, you know, because maybe that's how I inherited this.
02:24: But tonight we're going to be talking about, first of all, one very sensitive subject, and that is suicide.
02:33: It's very sensitive.
02:35: I would imagine if you really took a poll of what was the most sensitive word in the English language, that might be somewhere in there.
02:42: Suicide.
02:43: We've all been somewhat affected by it in many ways or in many forms, correct? I mean, we have been around it.
02:51: We have, or we have heard about it, and it just, and anytime you ever hear about it, the first thing that happens is you are greatly just appalled or surprised, right? You can't believe it.
03:03: Why would this individual, so much going, so much happening? So, let's look at a couple of things here.
03:10: Let's look at a sensitive, but real dilemma.
03:15: First of all, we're looking at the 11th leading cause of death in the U.S.
03:20: Now, you may say, well, that's really way up there, but when you start knocking out some of the more common ways of death, which mainly the three I would presume would be heart issues, diabetic, kidneys, liver, you start knocking it down, it starts getting it pretty close to maybe your non-normal ways of dying.
03:43: We also note there's 132 suicides every day.
03:48: You say, well, good grief, how many people are in the United States? That's not very many.
03:52: It's too many.
03:55: Wouldn't you agree? It's too many.
03:57: And we see that if you adjusted the age average, it's 15 per 1,000.
04:04: Now you start getting kind of, whoa, now that's looking kind of not good at all.
04:09: But as I start, and I'm just one of these guys with statistics, I just like to look and see where the numbers coming from, and so I actually went to the suicide prevention area, and they gave these statistics out.
04:22: But it's number four, and it's number five that concerned me highly, and that is, and the age is 16 through 24, it's the second leading cause of death.
04:38: Naturally at that age, there's not too many heart issues.
04:41: There's not too many diabetic issues.
04:43: There's not too many kidney issues.
04:45: There's not too many, right, the normal issues that people have as they age, as they get older.
04:51: So that bumps up 16 to 24.
04:55: Now as Dr.
04:57: Foskey had mentioned, I teach at Lighthouse Christian School.
05:00: We go through training every year.
05:01: Two hours of that training is from the suicide prevention center.
05:05: That comes and teaches us, and tries to direct us, and tries to show us, and tries to give us some insight into what to look for, and that reason is this statistic right here.
05:19: And basically it boils down to this.
05:23: If a student gets a paper back from me and says, oh goodness, I'm just going to kill myself, we are immediately responsible to report that.
05:34: Now you say, well, that's just, you know, I mean, I got some papers back in school, and I thought about it myself, right? But that's not what the situation is.
05:45: We are really drilled to any time you hear that from that age group, you need to let somebody know, and of course we have to do that.
05:56: And then the other statistic here that really concerns me is the ages 54 to 82, it's the fourth cause of death.
06:09: So looking at four and five, what would you say is happening in our country today as far as suicide? It's okay, this is going to be an interactive class, you're right, you can talk.
06:28: Anybody? We are losing our young people and old people to this.
06:38: This is really concerning to me.
06:41: Are they just, and I do know teaching young people, they're very discontented.
06:48: They're, I guess there's a few in my class that I might could classify as, quote, happy.
06:56: But most of them are dealing with things that you and I probably never in our lifetime thought we'd have to deal with.
07:05: And many of these young people are experiencing these type of things.
07:08: They are bombarded from everywhere, correct? Just like you and I are.
07:12: We're bombarded with too much information.
07:15: Overload, and they carry that overload to the classroom.
07:19: They carry that overload to the cafeteria.
07:23: They carry that overload when they walk in the door in the morning.
07:27: So let's get, let's then get to, let's then get to some definitions.
07:35: The dictionary says that suicide is the act or an instance of taking one's life voluntarily or intentionally.
07:49: And for most of us as we get to thinking along that line, that's what we think about.
07:55: But the Dictionary of Christian Ethics gives another, gives another viewpoint of this which kind of hits a little more critically.
08:07: And that is, it's the murder of oneself.
08:13: We have lost somebody.
08:18: We have lost a life.
08:20: We have lost a prospect of something good.
08:24: We have lost a prospect that's going to leave pain for the rest of other people's survivors' lives.
08:34: So that does kind of hit a little closer than just the general, okay, they did, you know, he just took his life voluntarily, intentionally.
08:42: He said that's what he was going to do.
08:43: He's going to jump off the bridge.
08:44: That was it.
08:44: But when you talk about murder of oneself, you're getting very close to theologically looking at it, aren't you? You're now destroying a life that God has given.
08:58: And that is, and the way I look at life is this.
09:02: If God's given it to you, you're healthy and good.
09:04: You ought to do everything you can for him for the rest of your life while you're able to do it.
09:12: My wife told me to slow down one time.
09:14: I did and had a hard time.
09:18: I mean, I'm not supposed to do that, but I did.
09:21: I slowed down.
09:22: I got, I got late.
09:23: I tell you, I told the Lord at that time, Lord, you know, if I can get through this thing and believe me, sometimes sitting in a hospital bed and you're sitting there saying, no, if you can just get me through this thing, you know, and I get out of here and I'm in good health, I'm going to serve you.
09:37: Well, I'm in it and I'm 72 now.
09:40: I still plan to keep going as far as long as I possibly can.
09:45: So we see then murder of oneself.
09:48: So looking at these two definitions, we see that it gets very, very close to maybe how God looks upon things sometimes as far as our lives go.
09:59: And when we get into euthanasia later on this evening, we will get some idea of basically how this stuff starts throwing into different avenues.
10:11: Okay, so there are suicides in the Bible.
10:17: That is correct, correct? There are suicides in the Bible.
10:22: We talked about one this morning in Sunday school, Ahithophil.
10:26: You know, he, somebody, oh my goodness, nobody's listening to my, my goodness.
10:29: So he just, he went out and took his life.
10:31: We know of Judas.
10:34: Let's just go ahead and say Saul.
10:37: Samson, more or less, I guess.
10:39: Now again, that's what I was reading in one of Scott Ray's books about that one.
10:43: Very controversial one, but you know, was it or was it not him committing suicide when he said, just go ahead and let my wife go? All right, so we see, even though the Bible says there are suicides, nowhere is it condoned and nowhere is it considered acceptable.
11:03: Nowhere.
11:06: It's a tragic, sad thing when it happens.
11:10: So then, there are suicides in the Bible.
11:15: Now, Dr.
11:17: Foskey in his notes, and it was a question I was going to ask anyway, and it's a question I want us to interact with a little bit today, and that is, can a person commit suicide, and you're probably, you're probably already bracing for what I'm going to say, and go to heaven? Yes, sir.
11:45: Again, neither condone nor accept it.
11:54: Anyone else? I was around a group of people who didn't believe that, and that group of people believed that if he did escape hell, it would be a severe time in purgatory, if he did escape it.
12:11: But as far as he was concerned, he just took the fastest path to hell.
12:17: So anyone else? Can a person commit suicide and go to heaven? Yes, ma'am.
12:24: Mm-hmm.
12:58: Okay, and then, and euthanasia, we're going to get to some of that, just what you're talking about there.
13:17: Okay.
13:18: Yes, sir, Tim.
13:20: Well, I mean, I think that our Christian ethics, obviously, is rooted in Scripture, and in Scripture, we're told that the thing that sends people to hell is a rejection of Jesus Christ.
13:31: So, and the Scripture also tells us that, so death does not separate us, right? And that's a promise that we have when we're in Christ.
13:48: So I think that the answer would be is if anyone is in Christ, he's sealed, and he will enter into glory.
14:02: If they commit suicide or live to their 120, they're not going to enter into, that's where we have to, where we have to land with what Scripture says.
14:16: Okay, yes, ma'am, Cindy.
14:18: And suicide is not written in Scripture as the unpardonable sin.
14:24: That is contributing to Christ's work, to the work of Satan, and that's when Christ is walking around on earth.
14:32: So, suicide is not the unpardonable sin.
14:35: So if a person is a Christian and take their own life, by written death, they'll go to hell.
14:41: Mm-hmm.
14:44: Anyone else? May I? Yeah, sure, you most certainly can.
14:50: There is, I just want to follow up on what you said.
14:54: In the history of Catholicity, Catholic theology, it has been very well, the teaching is suicide is automatically a mortal sin, which removes the grace of justification, which is why they believe they go to hell.
15:15: So this does come into our theology, and I hope I'm not getting ahead of you, but because we have a theology that grace abounds and cannot be forfeited, but they believe the very act of self-murder is a forfeiting of grace.
15:34: So that speaks to the distinction in our theology.
15:38: And it would go back to theological issues.
15:41: If you believe that you can be saved and then sin and lose your salvation, have to go back and get saved again, that would vary on that.
15:51: All right, were you sinning at the time or were you not sinning at the time? And of course, the Pentecostal church does believe that suicide is very, very serious.
16:03: In fact, in their doctrinal, in their covenants, they are very close to saying that it is a mortal sin.
16:10: Very close to saying it.
16:12: They don't say it in so many words, but it's very close.
16:15: Now, there's a, you know, always remember another thing too.
16:19: When you start looking at other people's, when you start looking at other people's denominations and things, how they view things, always remember, Christian folk can be very harsh and very critical.
16:32: Amen.
16:33: We are well, we are extremely prone to that.
16:41: Especially if it's something that we know we don't do, but we know we're doing something maybe similar to it, but still we're not doing it.
16:49: We haven't sometimes get very insensitive to how we address a certain situation.
16:56: All right, so we see then, so Christian views on suicide have been varied.
17:03: Protestants, usually Evangelicals, Charismatics, and Pentecostals believe that suicide is self-murder.
17:10: In many cases, some of them do believe it's self-murder and that this is an important aspect.
17:16: If you knew Jesus Christ as your savior, then you ought to be happy in him, and so why would you commit suicide? Now, there was an old radio show, and I think maybe there might be a couple of you in here that can go back with me that far, and it was called, Who Knows What Lurks in the Heart of Man? The Shadow.
17:43: See, I knew there would be at least one.
17:47: I wasn't going to call his name, but you know, because all right, so anyway, but you know, we do not know what's going on in the heart of an individual.
17:59: Even though we know it's deceitful and above all, and desperately wicked above all things, right? We definitely do not know what's going on there.
18:08: A smile can mean pain so deep inside that we can't get anywhere close to it.
18:15: So, we see then that now according to the theology of the Roman Catholic Church, again, they feel that he has taken you from what they call the grace and the justification of the Eucharist, and that no sir, you know, and if you do, and this is based upon who you are and what you are, if you do, you've got a severe time in purgatory.
18:39: We already talked about that.
18:40: Now, the Methodist Book of Discipline.
18:44: I was about to say the United Methodist Church, but I'm very careful adding church onto that anymore, but let's just say the United Methodists.
18:52: They say their Christian perspective begins with this.
18:56: There's nothing including suicide that separates us from the love of God.
19:05: I, pastoring, you get these calls that you don't want to get.
19:11: You didn't ask for them, but you knew somewhere along the line they may be coming.
19:17: I remember one evening I got a call, and this person was very distraught and everything, said that this individual had committed suicide.
19:26: Unbelieving.
19:28: Unbelieving to me because he was in the youth group, very active, seemed like just a, everything was going great.
19:36: Football player, etc.
19:38: I mean, when you look on all the outside things, why would he even think about doing something like this? Well, I was a young pastor.
19:50: This is the first time this has happened to me.
19:52: I've had funerals where people died natural deaths, okay, but not a suicide.
20:02: So, I figured I'd call up a couple of people that I really knew, and that had been in the ministry for a while, and knowing that they might have some advice to give me.
20:14: It's kind of like one of them Bible passages that you're having trouble with, and you go to the commentary and find out they got problems with it too.
20:23: This is what happened.
20:25: Well, there's not too much you can do.
20:28: I didn't know what to do.
20:30: I went to the family, but before I went to the family where this hospital was, suicide stuff was in separate areas because they didn't want people in a waiting room screaming.
20:42: They did not want that, and I saw this nurse come by.
20:46: I said, nurse, I'm the pastor of the individual that's in that family that's in that room there.
20:53: I'll never forget this as long as I live.
20:56: I said, I don't know what to do here.
20:59: I said, I'm just going to be honest with you.
21:00: I don't know what to say, and I remember it as clear as this day.
21:07: Here's what she replied to me.
21:15: My reply was, shut up, and that's what I did.
21:22: What do you say? What do you do except express the love of God to that family and also make things as positive at the service and things that you can.
21:36: By the way, if you look in funeral sermons and things like this and stuff like that, you don't get a whole lot of help with the suicide, and you have to come up somewhere some way with something, and basically it boils down to this.
21:50: Give them hope.
21:52: Give them hope because they don't have any at that moment.
21:57: All right, let's see.
22:01: A VA therapist friend of mine said this.
22:05: We have antidepressant, anti-anxiety, anti-inflammation drugs, but we do not have an anti-suicide drug, and we keep saying, well, we got drugs for everything, and trust me, I look up in my cabinet, I believe we do, but basically there is no really cure or anything that can necessarily prevent that, and that is the way suicide is looked at, so by what standard? Again, we go by this thing of what standard, right? How do we base? What is our standard? I think we covered this twice.
22:52: Dr.
22:52: Foskey put it up on the board.
22:54: By what standard? We can have the worldly standard, which says, but then when you get to that next one, murder of oneself, as we mentioned earlier, it gets a little more concise.
23:08: It gets a little more personal.
23:11: Taking of oneself.
23:12: Maybe a taking of one's soul.
23:15: So we see that.
23:19: We see that in the Bible.
23:20: Any questions, you know, along this line before we move on to the real doozy one? Not that this wasn't one enough.
23:29: Any questions? Any comments? Okay, let's move on then to another situation.
23:47: We've already looked at that one, and that is euthanasia, and again, by what standard? It is very often, and I've read this also in Dr.
24:04: Foskey's notes as well, we often are very merciful to animals when it comes to putting them down.
24:12: I, as I said, my wife's family's from Kentucky, and somehow or another, that makes me obligated to watch the Kentucky Derby every year.
24:24: All right, so anyhow, but it kind of pays off.
24:28: I have all those low-fat, low-cal things to eat in front of me.
24:32: Chicken wings, french fries, you know, all those things.
24:35: It's not going to affect any artery that I got left, okay, and we watched the Kentucky Derby.
24:43: So we were watching the Kentucky Derby last year.
24:47: As you know, there was a horse who was doing just fine.
24:52: He was coming around the last turn, and all of a sudden, down he went.
25:01: He was getting ready to advance to the first position, and he takes that turn.
25:09: His ankle or leg turns the wrong way, and down the jockey goes, and he goes, and the jockey just barely saved his life because some other jockeys knew how to manipulate the horses to keep from trampling him to death, and I never would believe in my lifetime that the television would record his putting down.
25:34: I could not believe it.
25:37: I'm looking at my wife.
25:38: I said, you're kidding me.
25:38: They're going to, well, they're going to put him down.
25:41: Well, I know that, but they're going to show it to us.
25:45: So they thought nothing about it.
25:46: Now, we didn't see the actual, you could hear it, and you knew that it was going on.
25:53: Who remembers the old comedian Jerry Clower, Christian comedian Jerry Clower? Him and those lead bettors.
26:02: You know, I mean, he could go on and on, but he talked about, he did this, he talked about this guy one time that was a horse carriage driver.
26:12: In other words, he basically carried horses from farm to farm, from place to place, wherever they needed to go.
26:21: And so one day, the guy loaded up the horses, and he took off.
26:26: He's driving on down the road and everything, and he's getting ready to come around a curve, and this car swerved over to his lane.
26:33: He had to swerve, and, of course, the trailer turned.
26:36: He turned, the horses go turn and go rolling down the hill, and he, the cab turns over, and he breaks his leg trying to get out of the cab.
26:46: He jumps, and he makes it, but he breaks his leg in the meantime.
26:51: Just a few moments after that, one of your traffic patrolmen, motorcycle patrolmen come by, and he said, he looks around, he says, what happened here? And the guy says, well, the guy run me off the road.
27:06: My horses are down there and stuff like that, and I don't know what, he says, okay, not a problem.
27:14: So the guy goes away from him for a minute, goes down to, goes down, starts looking around.
27:19: Next thing he hears, boom! A few minutes later, boom! Okay, next minute, boom! And I sit there, and the guy, officer comes walking back up.
27:34: Guy's holding his broken leg.
27:36: Officer come walking back up, and he says, well, and the guy asked him, he said, what'd you shoot those horses for? He said, well, they had a broke leg.
27:45: Man looked at him, and he looked down at him, said, what's wrong with you? Man said, not a thing in the world.
27:56: I mean, he was in pain, he was in agony, but yet he wasn't willing to die for it.
28:03: And sometimes euthanasia, as we start thinking about this, and this is a very, and it's getting worse, of a controversial subject.
28:15: Every legislature, when it meets, and we're going to look at a few minutes at a couple of other things that are there in euthanasia, but there are legislative bodies that meet every year, and the AMA is really putting pressure, and more pressure, more dollars, more lobbying into, we need more authority when it comes to death.
28:44: Now, if that doesn't, I don't necessarily say concern you, it kind of scares me.
28:52: How much authority do you give someone, such as a doctor in medical control or authority, how much of that authority do we give them over us? This is a very big debate that goes on.
29:08: Well, euthanasia.
29:10: All right, what is it? It's the practice of intentionally ending life to eliminate pain and suffering.
29:26: Now, there are certain things in life, I can put it to you this way.
29:30: Before any dentist is going to crank up that drift and go in any of these teeth, he better find that Novocaine quickly.
29:41: Otherwise, we're going to have a fight on our hands, right? We do want, we do not like, let's just face it.
29:48: Is there anybody here that just enjoys pain? No.
29:54: C.S.
29:54: Lewis's great book, he called it the joy of pain, and of course, he read about his wife who went through so much that she did a very illustrative book that brings up already back in the 50s and 40s, the euthanasia situation.
30:12: And so we see then that as far as euthanasia goes, it's a practice of intentionally ending life to eliminate pain and suffering.
30:23: In the 70s, there was this movie called Logan's Run.
30:31: Logan's Run was based on a society that you could live until you were 30.
30:39: And if you made it to 30, then you were obligated to go on this thing called the carousel.
30:46: You went into this big, I mean, it looked like a fair ride or something.
30:50: You went in, they strapped you in, and if you could get out, or if you could escape, which you would eventually, you would be unsnapped, and you'd be kind of in an air vacuum.
31:01: If you could get out of that air vacuum, then of course you could live past 30, okay? However, it wasn't the whole plot of the movie was based upon this.
31:17: Someone discovered that no one ever gets out of carousel, and thus Logan's Run.
31:26: He was running away from the authorities, running away from the carousel.
31:31: In our society today, we are not very far from carousel.
31:42: Now, we're looking from a Christian viewpoint ourselves, but out there in that other worldview, that humanistic worldview, who values nothing, who basically says life is just, well, it just goes poof, it goes in the ground, it's all over, forget it.
31:59: I mean, just be glad you were around as long as you were.
32:03: So we see euthanasia, then, is a practice of intentionally ending life to eliminate pain and suffering.
32:10: Now, there are three types of euthanasia.
32:18: One is voluntary, two is non-voluntary, and three is patient-related.
32:37: So, give you just a second there on that one.
32:43: Yes, sir.
32:48: Yes, I am.
32:49: I'm going to do it.
32:49: I'm going to go through them right.
32:50: I'm going to go through them right now.
32:52: Thank you.
32:52: Thank you.
32:55: All right.
33:01: Voluntary.
33:02: Voluntary is conducted with the consent of the patient.
33:05: This is known usually as PAS, physician-assisted suicide.
33:15: And this is what the physicians and the medical community is pushing hard for.
33:26: And we're going to look at some of the scenarios and some of the issues that are involved with it.
33:33: One of the biggest issues that's involved in this subject of euthanasia is called economics.
33:44: Why should we be spending all this money to keep somebody that's not going to be functional or they've done good in life, but, you know, they can't get out of this bed.
34:00: They're just going to be here.
34:01: We're going to have to feed them.
34:03: We're going to have to clean up after them.
34:05: We're going to have to provide some place for them to stay.
34:09: And most of them cannot afford that because many of them are baby boomers who thought Social Security was going to be enough to get them by for the rest of their lives after age 65.
34:22: I'm one of those baby boomers that kind of had that in my mind until I turned age 45 and realized I was in trouble.
34:29: If I was going to retire and retire comfortably, I was in a lot of trouble.
34:34: And I needed to do something about that.
34:38: All right.
34:38: So we see then voluntary is conducted with the consent of the patient.
34:43: This is known as physician suicide.
34:45: This is someone who is able to say, okay, I can get this doctor.
34:51: He can come in and instead of me having to go through all this pain of liver cancer or kidney cancer or prostate cancer or whatever it may be, I just mentioned cancer because it's so dominant in everything that's around us today.
35:11: Now, this is legal in Belgium and Luxembourg and Netherlands right now.
35:22: And I know we sit there and say, well, good grief.
35:25: That's Europe.
35:27: That's the other side of the world.
35:29: Well, look at my next one.
35:31: In the U.S., California, go figure.
35:36: I mean, if it's going to have something wrong with it or illogical or evil with it, it will come from California very likely.
35:45: And so we see Oregon, Washington, Montana, and Vermont has passed bills that allow that right now in their state.
35:55: And this is where the big push is coming from other states to allow this to happen.
36:05: It is very heavily being lobbied and promoted in Florida.
36:11: And why would you think that would be? Yes, sir.
36:17: Oh, you know, I mean, you can live in Antarctica and you're going to retire in Florida, right? I mean, or Iceland.
36:25: And you're going to, well, probably you'd want to, right? Antarctica or Iceland, you probably want to retire in Florida.
36:29: But that is true.
36:32: Especially I know when I go down south with my son and we're around Clearwater, we're around Tampa, we're around all those little sub areas around there.
36:43: It's nothing but block after block after block after block of retirement people.
36:52: And these people have to have most of the time somewhere in their lives before they pass on very intensive medical care.
37:05: So some of them choose now that if I want to, instead of go through all that, in other words, I went to the doctor.
37:11: He told me I had six months at best with chemo, etc, etc.
37:16: So I tell you what, to save everybody the problem, to save everybody this situation, I'm just going to call a doctor in that's, or I'm going to, we've had people move to these states just to have that done.
37:31: Now, I don't think I want to die that bad.
37:35: And I don't think any one of us sitting in here this afternoon has got on our mind right now, you know, I just, I just think I'd like to die.
37:45: You know, I doubt it.
37:46: I doubt it.
37:47: Because we want, we have, there is something God put in us that we want to live.
37:52: And it's called life.
37:55: We want to live.
37:57: You know, we want to be part of something.
37:58: So we see then that the voluntary is conducted with the consent of the patient.
38:04: Now, okay, so let's move on from this point.
38:11: Non-voluntary.
38:14: This is conducted against the will of the patient, excuse me, when no one is available.
38:27: You say, well, what does that mean? Somebody want to tell me what you think that might mean? Conducted against the will of the patient when no one is available.
38:45: That would pretty well be one of them.
38:47: Yes, sir.
38:49: Correct.
38:50: There's no one around to help them.
38:53: There's no one around to do certain things.
38:58: Yes, that would, that would be another, that would be another part of it.
39:01: We, yes, sir.
39:05: That could be.
39:08: And keep in mind, they have the permission to do that if there's nobody to give them not permission.
39:17: Right now, today, this afternoon, as we, as we gather here.
39:22: Certain places have certain authority that if there's, that if they, that if they need that bed, and it means you've got to kill that person, we need the bed.
39:39: I know this is not a pretty picture of our society at all.
39:43: But it don't take long after looking at the news yesterday, our society is not in a very good position anyway.
39:51: When it comes to making decisions or doing such things like that, I tell you, when you go away from the standard of God's Word, you are doomed as a nation, as a country, you are doomed as an individual.
40:05: You're doomed.
40:06: You get away from that.
40:07: That's the only standard that there is.
40:10: And believe me, I know there's interpretive standards of that, but it is the only standard that is so conducted against the will of the patient when no one is available.
40:20: Now, you say, well, how can that be? You would be surprised.
40:29: And you would also be appalled to find out how many people that are in nursing homes and facility care centers that have nobody.
40:40: Nobody.
40:46: That's deep.
40:48: Nobody.
40:58: At one of my churches, one time, an individual came to me and said, Pastor, I just want to talk to you.
41:10: I said, sure.
41:12: He said, I've got a good friend of mine is in a nursing home.
41:19: He didn't have any kids.
41:24: His wife passed.
41:26: He has no brothers.
41:27: He has no sisters.
41:28: As far as I know, there is no immediate or non-immediate family that he's even associated with.
41:37: And he says, what do you think I could do to help him? I said, well, I said, why don't we start now? He says, okay, what would we do? I said, let's go see him.
41:56: Let's go sit with him.
41:59: Let's go play cards with him.
42:00: Maybe some checkers with him.
42:03: Maybe there's a TV program he likes.
42:06: Sit down and watch it with him.
42:08: Find out what he likes and things like that.
42:11: We did that.
42:12: When it was over, he said, I see what you're saying, Pastor.
42:16: And that's what I'm going to do.
42:19: And he'd get off work every day.
42:22: Every day.
42:24: And getting him a Coca-Cola and a Snickers bar, even though he had no teeth to chew it with, he could still put that Snicker bar away.
42:35: I'm sitting there, how does he do that? But anyway, every day he would do that.
42:42: And as the man came to his final day, and passed away, he was sitting there with him.
42:53: And he called me.
42:54: He said he's passed away, Pastor.
42:57: I guess we're going to have to do a service and things.
42:59: I said, well, I said, I think we should.
43:03: I said, so why don't you do it? He says, well, I don't know.
43:09: I'll help you if you need help.
43:12: But you were the closest to him.
43:15: You were the one that invested your time every day for nearly five years.
43:21: And I mean every day.
43:23: Seven days a week.
43:24: He'd get off work or whatever he was doing.
43:27: At four o'clock, he was there at that Snickers bar and that Coca-Cola in the bottle, six ounces.
43:34: So we see then, nonvoluntary is conducted against the will.
43:38: This man had nobody else.
43:40: And if it boiled down to where the decision had to be made, he was, it was left to the medical authorities at the facility.
43:50: All right.
43:51: Then involuntary.
43:53: That's conducted against the will of the patient.
43:56: And this is what bothers me.
43:59: Whether the patient is conscious or not.
44:04: Now, what would be an example of that? Mm-hmm.
44:13: That could be.
44:15: That could be.
44:17: Anything else? Maybe any life support type stuff that might be.
44:26: I mean, no matter whether it's feeding to, whether it's a ventilator, whether it's the one that keeps, well, the ventilator helps keep the lungs going, et cetera, et cetera.
44:35: And I mean, we've come, our technology has come so far, folks, we don't know sometimes what to do with it.
44:45: Oh, we can keep this person alive.
44:49: I mean, I guess forever.
44:52: As long as we've got this stuff here, I guess.
44:54: I mean, they're saying, I mean, we don't know for sure just how long somebody can't.
45:00: So any other example where this may be conducted against the will of the patient? Could be, yes.
45:10: We have in Florida what's known as the Baker Act.
45:14: So you can Baker Act, especially in high school students.
45:19: You can Baker Act them and basically you call, you call the police.
45:24: They come and you say, I want to Baker Act this individual.
45:28: And here's the scary part.
45:30: You can do that without consulting the parents.
45:36: And believe me, I've seen it happen.
45:43: They're called, the parents aren't called until the other, the police is called first, the parents aren't called, and next thing the parents know, they're over on Beach Boulevard with no knowledge of anything.
46:02: Needless to say, there is a slight bit of hostility from the parents.
46:09: There would be from me, you know, very quickly.
46:13: I mean, but anyway, we have this Baker, so they're committed.
46:17: Will they want any to go there or not? You're right, they're committed.
46:20: All you got to do is use this legal thing called the Baker Act.
46:24: I don't know all about what that's, but again, we're drilled on that for an hour.
46:30: And that's always a pleasant time of the school year to sit there eight hours listening to state authorities who think they know what they're talking about.
46:37: But anyway, sorry, I'll leave that.
46:39: I'll leave that.
46:39: I'll leave that alone.
46:41: Now, this brings up a situation, my last heart attack.
46:48: And, you know, I missed, I missed the second half of that Tampa Green Bay game because that heart attack, you know, and I mean, I even asked him, I even asked the guy on the Catholic, can you turn on the game? You know, so any he didn't, he turned on his TV and I say, Oh, you know, so anyway, on my way there.
47:11: The EMT says, Do you have a DNR, a living will, or a medical directive? I go, I have all three.
47:24: He says, Do you have the card for the DNR and the medical directive? I said, I do.
47:31: It's in my wallet.
47:33: And he says, Okay.
47:35: Nothing said after that.
47:37: You know, I guess I started getting treated after that.
47:40: I don't, but anyway, you know, so we get to the hospital.
47:45: And naturally, they're waiting on me.
47:47: I say, I never had so many people greet me in all my life.
47:50: You know, I said, Hey, they were glad to see me.
47:53: I wasn't glad to be there.
47:56: And so we were going up the ramp, we got into the room.
48:00: And the first thing somebody come to the doctor said, Yeah, we got to get you the cath lab.
48:06: I said, I could have told you that.
48:07: But anyway, I'm so a lot cheaper and probably what you're going to charge me.
48:11: But then it wasn't long before chaplain came in before I went to the cath lab.
48:16: Now here I am.
48:18: And they want to know and his first thing is, so you have a medical directive.
48:23: You have a DNR.
48:24: And you have these things in place.
48:26: I said, Yes, sir.
48:27: My wife's on her way.
48:29: She she she has those things if you really need them.
48:33: And they said, Yes, we we do need them.
48:36: They scanned them and put them on this file.
48:40: So they know how I feel.
48:42: And my directors now legally in the state of Florida, those directives must be followed, or the hospital is liable.
48:52: But you get my point.
48:56: They are concerned about this euthanasia.
49:00: They are concerned about consent.
49:02: They are concerned because let me tell you this.
49:05: There is no hospital that won't their doctors doing things that's going to cost them millions of dollars.
49:15: And if there's something going against my consent, now, you say, well, I know, I know, I know what Baptist their policy is, basically, they'll treat you and stuff.
49:23: But if there's a situation that arises from a medical situation, they have another hospital, I won't mention it, where they will probably send you to that has a little bit more authority, etc.
49:35: But notice it.
49:36: But what I want you to note here is this.
49:39: And we'll take a short break in just a few minutes.
49:42: What I want you to note in this in your hospital admissions, knowing your rights.
49:46: Now, I'm just giving you some advice here on this one, knowing your rights and reading of the fine print by someone if you can't do it is extremely crucial.
49:56: It's one thing to sign a consent form for permission to treat you.
50:02: That's one thing.
50:03: Yes, I want you to treat me and you better believe I do.
50:06: But when it comes to the admission status, they want a lot of information.
50:11: And they've got a lot of fine print that had to be put together by none other than a lawyer.
50:20: Therefore, to four, here to four, therefore, part A to part C, therefore, it's part D is part C.
50:29: Okay.
50:30: And a lot of that has to do with final directives.
50:36: There'll be a paragraph about that there'll be three or four paragraphs about that long.
50:42: So if that educated you a little bit, I hope it might might have had if you don't have those in place.
50:49: Now somebody says, Well, I'm not very old, definitely not as old you are.
50:53: I'm not very old.
50:54: I don't need to put all that stuff in place.
50:56: Yes, you do.
50:58: I encourage it greatly because of this stuff right here.
51:04: Now, let's see if we can.
51:07: Let's see if we can get I tell you what, before we take our break, because sometimes you take a break a little past five, 430.
51:14: Yeah, yeah.
51:14: Okay, let's uh, let's look and see what happens for the Christian.
51:20: For the Christian.
51:21: Yes, sir.
51:22: I was confused.
51:23: So we had and patient where the patient request, you know, I want this done.
51:33: You know, and they can in some states.
51:37: And some have moved to those states to have that done.
51:42: No, I wasn't gonna say that.
51:43: Keep in mind that sometimes they had help getting them there.
51:49: Like the ones who are going to inherit the will.
51:53: Okay.
51:54: For the Christian, then we it's kind of problematic for us for three again.
51:58: Now we're going by what standard a Christian worldview, a biblical worldview, I could really care less about anybody else's.
52:07: So human life bears God's image.
52:10: Thus, it is not for us to terminate.
52:17: I, there is where I stand.
52:22: It's not for me to terminate.
52:26: We have so much in place today.
52:30: That if we are in a certain state of pain, that they are able, for the most part.
52:39: There are I'm sure there are extreme cases to control that pain.
52:44: At least have you calm down and at least living somewhat.
52:49: If you want to call it living, living somewhat comfortably.
52:56: Hospice, basically stars in that in many ways.
53:02: But one thing that a lot of people like to do is they like to go ahead.
53:08: At least people I have come across.
53:12: They like to go ahead and let the disease or whatever it is, it's going to kill them take its course to a point where if they can't handle it anymore, please help me at least be comfortable from the pain where my family's not seeing me suffering, where I'm not necessarily suffering.
53:35: Please help me that way.
53:37: So human life bears God's image.
53:40: Thus, it is not for us to terminate.
53:43: And theologically, I don't see where we can really debate that very much.
53:48: Do you? Unless someone's got different comments on that.
53:58: Oh, I wish my high school students were cooperative as y'all were.
54:02: You know, I said, we are part.
54:04: And the next thing is we're part of community where we are joined to each other through Christ.
54:17: In other words, we impact others.
54:20: We impact others also how we die.
54:32: I have gone to the hospital dying room of a nonbeliever.
54:39: And I've gone to the hospital room of a faithful saint, or a faithful Christian.
54:47: And it is two rooms that are the difference is night and day.
54:52: Why? If you're a Christian, there's one thing you do not have to have fear and dread of.
54:59: And that is that thing called death.
55:03: As far as God's concerned, it went poof.
55:06: Now, you're going to have to run your endemic course, correct? You're going to have to run your endemic course that is this cursed earth and that in this you shall surely die.
55:18: And it is appointed unto man once to die, and what after this, the judgment.
55:23: So it's all in our appointed times.
55:26: So we see we are a part of community.
55:28: Now, and I'm going to backtrack just one minute, just just one thought.
55:33: And I hate to do this, but it got away from me.
55:36: And normally, things don't get away from me only every day, but under the involuntary conducted against the will of the patient.
55:45: A survey done in 2021.
55:49: 10,000 physicians were were polled if they would consider halting life sustaining therapy if if the family demanded it.
56:03: Here are the results.
56:06: 16% said they would.
56:10: 54% of these your medical doctors said they would not.
56:15: And that that sounds good and looks good until you look at this next one.
56:20: 27% said, and this is exactly what they said, quote, it depends.
56:28: Now, my first thought on that, I want to scream out depends on what? Where is the standard of what it depends on? We have a standard at school.
56:45: You get two verbal talks in one.
56:48: After that, it's a referral.
56:49: They know that's the standard, correct? And that standard is adhered to.
56:56: So when he says it depends, depends on what? What they feel the situation should be? Is the economic thing something we need to address? Is there this? Is there that? Now, so notice then in the second part here, and I didn't mean to backtrack on that.
57:14: Now, human life bears God's image.
57:16: It's not for us to terminate.
57:17: We are part of community joined to each other.
57:20: We impact other people.
57:24: And I don't want to kind of get off secular here or anything, but I love English literature very much, especially the antique literature.
57:36: Of course, at my age, anything antique is good and sound and faithful.
57:41: But John Doane wrote a poem saying no man is an island.
57:45: And there's going to be a phrase or two in this that you're going to say, oh, is that where that came from? But I want to just read that to you, then we'll take a break.
57:55: No man is an island entire of itself.
57:59: And this is the line, any man's death diminishes me.
58:05: Any man's death diminishes me because I'm involved in mankind.
58:17: What is a community of believers? It's an involvement in the relationship with Christ.
58:25: He says, I'm involved.
58:27: Therefore, I never send to know whom the bells toll.
58:33: Why? The bell tolls today.
58:39: No man is an island.
58:41: He's saying every man's death impacts something else, someone else, somewhere else, someplace else.
58:49: Okay.
58:49: All right, let's take a let's take a little break, and then we'll come back and try to finish up with capital punishment.
58:55: Okay, about five minutes, isn't that usually five minutes, Pastor? Before we, let me go back.
59:09: All right.
59:11: We'll hit capital punishment pretty fast, as usually our 20-25 minute session we do.
59:17: I don't know how he does it.
59:18: But anyway, there are three basic issues that face the Christian in euthanasia.
59:25: And that is value.
59:28: Value.
59:30: What value has a human life? To the non-Christian, there's no inherent, there's no absolute value to it at all.
59:39: It's okay, he died.
59:42: And you know, there are some people just that cold.
59:44: Oh, well, sorry to hear that.
59:46: But that's life.
59:50: Well, yes, it is.
59:52: But I mean, looking upon it that way, that there's no value to that human life really concerns me greatly.
01:00:01: So there's nothing valuable, there's nothing absolute or nothing intrinsic in a value to the human life.
01:00:09: And you know something, if you're an evolutionist, which I hope and pray you are not, if you are, shame on you, we need to talk.
01:00:18: But anyway, if we, you know, if we hold to that value, of course, if you have an animal instinct, just an animal's left.
01:00:26: It was born, it died, just like your cat, your dog, anything you may own.
01:00:31: The next thing is, and something I wanted to touch on, that's why I might try to shorten the capital punishment as quickly, you know, as possible.
01:00:41: And that is fear.
01:00:42: What are the main fears that euthanasia is intended to relieve? First of all, there's that fear of uncontrollable and unbearable pain.
01:00:56: There's none of us that want to live with that.
01:00:59: But it could be coming.
01:01:03: So how are we going to deal with it? What directive are we going to give? My basic directive is I just like to be comfortable as you possibly medically and drug-wise can make me.
01:01:18: If not, then let the disease go on and take care of itself, because it's going to anyway.
01:01:25: Just let it go ahead and do that.
01:01:27: There's the fear of indignity.
01:01:32: You know, a nursing home or a caring facility is not a real happy place, if you've ever noticed.
01:01:46: One, it doesn't smell real great, first of all.
01:01:48: Number two, you see people just sitting around and nothing's going, nobody, you know.
01:01:54: Basically, a nurse in a nursing home has told me one time that she had so many patients that all she could care for was the ones that really needed severe care for.
01:02:06: The rest of them she couldn't get to or really didn't care, because she just couldn't do it.
01:02:12: I said, okay.
01:02:13: There's a fear of indignity.
01:02:16: There's the fear of dependence.
01:02:20: None of us want to be considered totally helpless, do we? We don't want to be laying there thinking somebody's looking at us, well that's just one helpless individual.
01:02:30: We don't want that.
01:02:31: But this is the one I want to touch on.
01:02:36: There's one more fear that I did not put up there, and that fear is this.
01:02:42: And it is one, I, the other fears I just mentioned doesn't bother me too much as far as far as fears, as fear goes.
01:02:54: But there is one fear that's popping up more and more, and I was just talking to an individual about it day before yesterday.
01:03:03: And that's the fear that my doctor could be my killer.
01:03:14: Boy, it got quiet.
01:03:18: It did get quiet, didn't it? When this individual mentioned that to me, he says, you know, he says, he says, you know, I'm going to live with this.
01:03:28: He had been diagnosed with lung cancer, and he said, you know, I can live with this and stuff.
01:03:34: He says, but you know, my doctor's already told me, he says, you know, I can, I can really, he says, I can really make this easy for you.
01:03:45: That's what his doctor told him.
01:03:47: I can make this very easy for you.
01:03:52: So he said, you know something, now I fear he could be my killer.
01:03:56: I go, hmm, hadn't thought about it that way.
01:03:59: Thank you for adding another fear for me.
01:04:00: I'll write it down.
01:04:02: You know, one more fear, you know, of that.
01:04:04: All right, so we see then, you know, there's one more fear that needs to be added, and that is that one.
01:04:09: Okay, now let's get to capital punishment.
01:04:17: As a Christian, I don't see how in the world, in any form or fashion, if you believe the scripture, that you can be against capital punishment.
01:04:32: Now, I won't love you any less or care for you any less if you don't, but I sure would like to see your evidence as to why you do not believe that.
01:04:44: So scripture does mandate capital punishment.
01:04:48: Here is something, though, anytime capital punishment comes up, this is my first argument.
01:04:53: It may not be yours.
01:04:53: This is mine.
01:04:58: Jesus submitted to it.
01:05:04: Did he not? However, we're going to look at a passage in a minute where he sets Pilate pretty well straight about what his authority really was in this whole thing.
01:05:14: I really like, you know, Jesus has a way of just putting us in our place, our views, our philosophy, our theology.
01:05:21: He has a way of coming around and putting us right smack dab in our place.
01:05:26: All right, so we see, that's southern for right in the middle of it, dab, right, you know.
01:05:31: All right, so anyway, scripture mandates capital punishment, but keep in mind that Jesus never refuted the Mosaic law of capital punishment.
01:05:40: You say, oh, oh, oh, for the bird, the woman taking an adultery, watch it.
01:05:45: That wasn't a, that wasn't a question of Mosaic law.
01:05:49: Jesus and the Pharisees and Sadducees knew what that was.
01:05:54: Jesus knew it was a question of motive, not of law.
01:05:59: They were wanting him to mess up.
01:06:03: Okay, bounder.
01:06:05: Moses said, stoner.
01:06:09: Jesus could have said, well, where's the, where's the accomplice? We're supposed to stone him too, right? Okay, we're supposed to stone him too.
01:06:19: No, he looked up and, and it's just brilliant.
01:06:23: You know, I, you know, I tell you, Jesus come up with better philosophy than Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle combined.
01:06:30: He says, he that is without sin, go ahead, stone her.
01:06:37: He looks up and there's just a woman there, but I think we all know the amazing thing of that, don't you? He could have stood up and stoned her.
01:06:47: He was without sin, but he asked where her accusers were, didn't he? And she says, there's none of them.
01:06:56: He says, neither I condemn you, but go get yourself straight.
01:06:59: Go and sin no more.
01:07:00: In other words, get this thing, get this act, get this cleaned up.
01:07:04: Go.
01:07:06: Don't sin anymore.
01:07:07: Okay, so we see then that Jesus himself submitted to capital punishment.
01:07:13: Now, he comes across this, and, and let's see, I want to find this here real quick.
01:07:21: I want to read to you John chapter 19 verses 10 through 11.
01:07:29: Pilate therefore said to him, you do not speak to me.
01:07:34: Do you not know? Now, here's Jesus.
01:07:37: He's looking at him.
01:07:38: Don't you know that I have the authority to release you, and that I have the authority to crucify you, in other words, capital punishment you? Do you realize that? Jesus answered, I mean, I love it.
01:07:53: You would have no authority over me unless it had been given you from above.
01:07:59: For this reason, he who delivered me up to you has the greater sin.
01:08:06: In other words, Pilate, I need to put you in your place.
01:08:12: You only have the authority to do anything to me, because it's given to you.
01:08:21: Okay, so scripture mandates capital punishment.
01:08:24: Genesis 9.6, you say, well, that's the Old Testament.
01:08:27: Yes, but it's before the law.
01:08:31: Now, I would use Romans 13 more than I would probably even use that, but here's a brand new civilization leaving the ark, and God sets down a standard that a life for life.
01:08:48: Murder will not be acceptable, and if there is murder, then the murderer must be put to death.
01:08:59: So, scripture mandates capital punishment.
01:09:03: Next thing is the law is given to Moses.
01:09:06: Now, again, we saw the West Wing video, and we realized when you start getting into Mosaic Law, and you start saying this one applies, but this one doesn't, you are in for trouble.
01:09:24: You're going to get set up pretty good, and again, just as Martin Sheen brought up in the West Wing there, he threw all those other things at him, and so you got to be kind of careful, but still, it was legislated for Israel to be a society.
01:09:40: They had to have a standard for murder, and they did.
01:09:43: They also have a standard for what other type of killing? Manslaughter.
01:09:48: It was called the cities of refuge.
01:09:50: Now, if you knew you had accidentally killed someone, you better get out of town as quickly as you can to that city of refuge, because if someone catches up with you at the Mosaic Law, they had the right to do what? So, best thing was, if there was an airline leaving that, you better get there, and you better get to the city of refuge as quick as you can, and you better have a case when you get to the city of refuge, because they could go to the city of refuge, and a judge would make a determination whether it was manslaughter or murder.
01:10:25: Okay, so the law was given by Moses, and then, of course, Romans 13, 1 through 7, and that basically says this.
01:10:39: Let every person be subject to governing authorities.
01:10:42: There is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God, and that pretty well makes it clear.
01:10:54: However, so the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment, for rulers cause no fear for good conduct, but for bad.
01:11:08: Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good, and you will receive its commendation, for it is God's servant for your good, but if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain.
01:11:24: It's God's servant to administer retribution on the wrong door.
01:11:29: So, here's what it basically says.
01:11:32: If I remember the Roman sword right, you didn't use it to peel apples.
01:11:39: What'd you use it for? Self-defense, either to kill or for self-defense, so you wouldn't be killed.
01:11:47: That's what the sword was used for, correct? Okay, so those who bear the sword.
01:11:53: Now, you may say, well, wait a minute.
01:11:55: Now, some of these people that bear the sword, they're not Christian, etc., etc.
01:12:00: It does, I don't see that clarified anywhere in the Scripture.
01:12:04: Even Peter comes along and says, you need to submit to the authorities, and what amazes me is both of these letters that were written by these two apostles, they were under prison sentence with these two authorities, or emperors, they were under.
01:12:24: So, we see Scripture, we see Romans 13, 1-7, these three things right here, though I would say number one and number three would be the most usable cases for capital punishment from a Christian world view.
01:12:42: Again, you get into the Pilgrim called the Slew of Despod, and you may not wait out, unless you're keenly up on your Scripture and theology, you may not be able to wait out.
01:12:58: Okay, we've got just a few, we got a few minutes.
01:13:01: Now, there are some people that believe that the Scripture prohibits capital punishment.
01:13:12: I still do not know where they get that from.
01:13:17: But here's where, here's some of the cases that, statements they give.
01:13:21: First of all, Israel was a theocracy ruled directly by God, therefore that was unique.
01:13:29: Well, that's true, but now what do you do with Genesis 9-6? That was a thousand years, maybe 1200, before the law was actually given.
01:13:47: Take the patriarch's time, the 430 years, I mean, so you're looking at about 1200 years, I mean, so it was in place before the Mosaic law was ever given at Mount Sinai.
01:13:58: So that would be, so if you're saying Israel was theocracy ruled directly by God, therefore unique, then you can go back to Genesis 9-6.
01:14:07: But again, you can hold to Peter's passage in 1 Peter 3, excuse me, 1 Peter 4, where he talks about submitting to those authorities, the king and those who rule over you.
01:14:22: So, the next thing is, Christ's death on the cross ended the need for blood recompense.
01:14:27: Now, I have talked to people that, and I just sit there like this listening to them.
01:14:36: That's my look, like, where'd you get that from? Where did you get that from? Christ's death on the cross ended the need for blood recompense.
01:14:45: Christ's death on the cross was for sin, and I'm really thanking that it was for mine.
01:14:56: And you should be thankful that it was for yours, but Christ's death on the cross had nothing to do with capital punishment.
01:15:04: All right, then the third thing is, they emphasize, is that remember now, Christ taught that to forgive and willingness to suffer evil and resist.
01:15:19: Well, if I understand one of those passages right where it says, if a guy hits you on the left cheek, you give him the right cheek also, he doesn't give any instructions after the second time.
01:15:33: I don't believe the Lord expects you to stand there and get yourself beat to death, right? I mean, I think that you can, but if you can resist the evil, if you can resist the fight, if you can resist that, then yes, that's what Jesus was teaching.
01:15:50: He also emphasized forgiveness.
01:15:52: Sure he did, but that forgiveness and willingness to suffer evil and resist, again, I don't know has anything to do with capital punishment, because then you get to the apostles, and you got Paul, you got, and not only that, you get to the early chapter of Acts.
01:16:15: There is one little passage where the authorities and, where the authorities and Christianity come into conflict.
01:16:23: It's the first of many, and they told him, now we told you not to say any more in his name, not to be blaming us Jewish people for all that crucifixion and all this other stuff.
01:16:34: Now why don't you just go on about your way, have your little click, enjoy yourselves, but do not talk about him again, and what was their reply? We ought to obey God rather than men.
01:16:50: Now, when the legislative part of man starts conflicting with the legislative part of God, you are obligated to follow the legislative part of God, and we've been talking about some ethical situations, abortion, all types of things, and believe me, God has a standard there, and we are to adhere to it and follow to it.
01:17:16: So we see Christ emphasized forgiveness and willingness for that to happen, and we also know that Christ submitted himself to that.
01:17:28: Okay, we've covered quickly, okay, we went through many things quickly.
01:17:38: Any questions? We got, we got just a few minutes.
01:17:47: Any comments? Okay, if capital punishment, just say you're a voter, and capital punishment came up, say okay, should we have capital punishment in the United States of America? Huh, I'm going to test you here.
01:18:17: Who would vote? Yes.
01:18:23: Who would vote? No.
01:18:26: It's okay if you do.
01:18:28: We'll hinder you later.
01:18:29: No, just, it's okay if you do.
01:18:31: I think sometimes a lot of people be indecisive about it because of the society that we live in, and because of what we are, as George Orwell said, the think tank, the think people come along and tell us pretty well what to think.
01:18:49: We said it in our first class.
01:18:50: Those who control the definitions control what? The whole argument.
01:18:56: Yep, the whole argument, and there are some people who take many different sub, you know, is capital punishment either is or it isn't, but in your books, I believe on Scott Ray, he has a third, he has a third one there.
01:19:14: I think it's called procedural or, I can't remember now, and I forgot to bring my book, but he throws a third view in there.
01:19:24: That's a real problem because logic tells us this.
01:19:27: You can only have one view or the other.
01:19:30: The third view is going to, the third view is going to x out the other two, and thus there's no view at all.
01:19:37: Let me do that again.
01:19:39: The first, and logic, the first two points are either a yay or a nay.
01:19:45: You throw the third thing in there, then you've compromised the yay, you've compromised the nay, and thus you're not going to come to any conclusion logically on anything.
01:19:55: It's over.
01:19:58: All right, so no questions, no comments.
01:20:03: It's six o'clock.
01:20:04: Yes, sir.
01:20:08: Often one of the, and you touched on this, but often one of the things that is difficult is, while I am 100% pro-capital punishment, I said last class I would install electric bleachers and take out, it's for real.
01:20:29: There are times where it just needs to happen, but I think the concern, and sometimes a right concern, is an unjust government that has the right to enforce capital punishment, and I can see a Christian having that problem.
01:20:48: Correct, yes.
01:20:49: Saying, I can't trust my government with the power of the sword.
01:20:56: Romans 13, and Rome was an unjust government, so, and Paul still said submit to it, so I think that may be one of the areas that people would struggle with on an ethical plane.
01:21:08: I agree with capital punishment, but I don't agree that they should have the power.
01:21:12: It's like you talked earlier about doctors, you can't trust.
01:21:15: Right.
01:21:16: We have politicians, we can't, and legislators we can't trust, so I think that may be a further dilemma.
01:21:24: Yes, it would.
01:21:26: Okay, well, let's pray, and our Father, we are grateful for this, and we're grateful to have these classes available.
01:21:36: We're grateful there's someone here who had a vision of this, we thank you.
01:21:40: Now, I ask as we depart, there are a lot of individual lives in here tonight, Father, I ask you to bless them, that you take care of their individual needs that I don't even know about, and we'd ask it in Jesus' name, amen.
01:21:54: Amen.
01:21:56: Thank you, that was wonderful, appreciate it.