September 28, 2020 Show with Peter Robinson on “The Fall of the Episcopal Church & the Rise of Biblically Faithful Episcopal Bodies” (Part 2)

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 28th day of September 2020 and excuse me folks

I'm fiddling with something I just had my voice correctly leveled in the studio and for some reason it's gotten very low again and I don't know why but anyway we're going to press on hopefully this situation will be rectified last week

I believe it was yes in fact I know it was last Tuesday we began part one of a discussion with our guest today

Bishop Peter Robinson on the fall of the Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies today we are going to be entering into part two of that discussion with Bishop Robinson he is the presiding bishop of the

United Episcopal Church of North America and it's our honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Bishop Peter D.

Robinson it's great to have you back brother and if you could once again give us a summary especially for the sake of our listeners who are hearing you for the very first time give us a summary of the

United Episcopal Church of North America the United Episcopal Church in North America was founded in 1981 as a conservative alternative to the

Episcopal Church but unlike most of the continuing Episcopal Churches it very much decided to put itself into the moderate to low church and reformed side of the

Episcopal tradition and since then we have been trying to maintain that tradition in the

United States and we have roughly 25 parishes some on the

East Coast some in the Ozarks some in Arizona we're not a big church but hopefully we are one that is presenting a faithful witness now when you say that you wanted to place the new denomination or the denomination of the

United Episcopal Church of North America when it was founded in the moderate to low church category would that be as opposed to the

Anglo Catholic tradition that also can share the title traditionalist

Anglican very often whether they legitimately do that or not yes really you have two traditions within the

Episcopal Church and occasionally I somewhat unkindly say that they were kept together by the prayer book and just have it the slightly older tradition which

I will describe as being moderate to low church is the old Protestant high churchmen and the evangelicals who were the bulk of the

Episcopal Church in the late 18th and early 19th century and then

Tractarianism which morphs into Anglo Catholicism really emerges in the

United States about 1840 1845 about seven or eight years after it gets its start in England yes and as we mentioned last week it is ironic and I've got to be careful not to broad brush our brethren in the

Reformed Episcopal denomination the Reformed Episcopal Church but it is somewhat ironic that they were founded to counteract or to protest against the rise of Anglo Catholicism the

Tractarian movement the Oxford movement and yet today you have many in the so -called priesthood of the

Reformed Episcopal Church who are themselves Anglo Catholic and Oxford movement and Tractarian men yeah a lot of that has to do with the way in which the

REC repositioned itself in the 1980s it saw the new problems in the

Episcopal Church as an opportunity to grow and it positioned itself more towards the center of the

Anglican tradition I mean it always before that been a little bit off on one side in that when they were founded in 1873 they made a very strong appeal not to the

Protestant tradition on its own but they also try to incorporate things like the 1786 draft prayer book which were very latitudinarian in style and one of the problems that gave them for example when dealing with people who were more familiar with the

Episcopal tradition was for example the version of the

Creed that was used in 1786 the the Apostles Creed lacks the he descended into hell clause there were a lot of little things that used to upset even low church

Episcopalians when they dealt with the REC and the REC rather wisely in the late 70s early 80s began to down pedal a lot of the ways in which it was different from the old

Episcopal Church so for example they reverted back to using put the 39 articles back in the first place downplayed the 35 articles of 1876 they started allowing the use of the surplus they came back more towards mainstream

Anglicanism the only trouble is you know it's kind of kept going and so you know they re -embraced the mainstream of mainstream low church practice in the

Episcopal Church then they embraced the mainstream of middle -of -the -road practice in the

Episcopal Church and now they have their churches that border on the Anglo -Catholic tradition and it's almost a case of the

REC is more a small conservative

Episcopal Church like the Episcopal Church was back in the 1940s rather than necessarily having a distinctly

Reformed witness. I see well I know that I do have friends and acquaintances who either are still in or used to be in the

REC and and please forgive me if I am wrongly giving the impression to our listeners that everybody in the

REC is an Anglo -Catholic or even leans that way I have spoken with men who are faithful Protestants and faithful Reformed churchmen in that denomination and so I just know that I have spoken with some even from that very category

I mentioned who are dismayed by the inclusion of the

Pussyates the Tractarians the Oxford movement men. Yeah really there's a sense in which the really high parishes are a very very small part of the

REC. Generally the REC today is middle -of -the -road

Episcopalianism kind of 1955 -1965 style but you get these old odd churches that worry everybody else.

I'm sorry I didn't understand the last statement. You get the odd church that's rather Anglo -Catholic that makes everybody else worried.

In other words you see them as they say climbing the candlestick too high. One or two have.

The REC is like every church it has its pockets of things where you think well

I hope that doesn't catch on because it really is not the tradition they are coming from.

One of the problems really American Anglicanism has is no real strong sense of what its theological identity is and a lot of that is due to the fact that from the middle of the 19th century onwards the 39 articles were downplayed and of course there were successive revisions of the

Book of Common Prayer which have gradually weakened the

Reformed witness of the prayer book. So for example 1789 revision is still quite latitudinarian.

1892 you begin to see the influence of the Oxford movement but it's not pronounced.

Then in 1928 you get another little nudge in the direction of Tractarianism or as I should say by that date

Anglo -Catholicism and also you see the influence of higher biblical criticism coming in in the way in which the daily office lectionary is organized in that they begin to try and create a historical narrative based on higher criticism of the

Old Testament rather than just reading it through in course which had been the traditional Anglican approach.

So the other thing that you have is that with the downplay of the articles there's a tendency for the

Episcopal Church to become rather drafty in terms of the winds of doctrinal change blowing through.

So you have your periods when German liberal theology is very influential and it becomes the counterpoint to the sort of liberal

Anglo -Catholicism that was coming from England. Now I would say that that is true of those that become weak on confessionalism in general.

Spanning denominations and fellowships and brotherhoods I would say that is true amongst the

Baptists who have either never embraced or abandoned the 1689

London Baptist Confession also known as the Second London Confession or the

Philadelphia Confession and of course you have a really vivid example of utter apostasy in Congregationalism where the

Savoy Declaration is no longer adhered to or even viewed as something favorable or positive it's shunned like the plague by most who wear the title

Congregationalists in this day and age. And I say most because there are biblically faithful Congregationalists but the

United Church of Christ which has its roots in Puritanism I believe is by and large an apostate denomination and then of course you do have some or most in the

PCUSA who have abandoned the Westminster Confession and going back to the

REC one of the reasons why this is a sensitive subject to me I know that I have mentioned this before on my program but when my late uncle in Washington State was considering leaving the

Episcopal Church over liberalism he was a staunch conservative he was tinkering with the idea of becoming

Roman Catholic because I don't know if he was not aware of a truly confessionally

Protestant Anglican churches or if the theological issues were above his pay grade

I'm not really sure what the issue was with that but I began a search for REC churches and other traditional

Protestant Anglican churches near him and I had a conversation with a

Reformed Episcopal priest who mocked me and said that I was a moron for being concerned about my uncle converting to the

Catholicism and he actually said I have more in common with my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ than with morons like you

I was utterly shocked by that Oh interesting pastoral approach yeah regardless of where he's coming from but I was especially shocked that it was an

REC pastor I was very naive about the rise of Oxford Movement men in that denomination at the time

One of the things that I think is particularly awkward for mainstream denominations is there seems to be a tendency when they start going liberal when two denominations that are beginning to go liberal merge it's almost as though you know liberalism squares or at least doubles every time denominations merge so for example the

UCC is a merger of two congregational bodies with the old

Evangelical and Reformed Church and there was some liberal leaning leadership particularly on the evangelical side of the

Evangelical and Reformed Church but you know they were nowhere near in the 1950s the positions that they were seen adopting in the 1970s and many of the old

ENR churches would have been using the old Evangelical Catechism or the

Heidelberg Catechism right up until the 1970s and still being to all intents and purposes quite conservative

Bible based churches but the leadership of the denomination was off on its own tangent and I think a lot of that has to do with kind of the quasi -congregational nature of a lot of church government in America I mean you can keep things pretty pure down at parish level providing you don't look too much up the hierarchy of what's going on at committee level yes and of course there are denominations and groups that give lip service to confessions that are meaningless

I can remember years ago my friend

Michael Horton of the White Horse Inn who is a world -renowned

Reformed author in the United Reformed Church of North America and also a faculty member at Westminster Seminary California I remember years ago back in the 90s

I believe it was he was interviewing Robert Shuler on the

White Horse Inn not because he was in agreement with Dr. Shuler the late

Dr. Shuler but because he wanted to demonstrate how Dr.

Shuler although he has a had a profession of being Reformed was really far from it in regard to the historicity of what that word means and he during that interview declared that he had great love for the

Heidelberg Catechism and the Belgian Confession and the Canons of Dort and had recited by memory great portions of these creeds but it was obvious that this man's theology was in polar opposite to the core of Reformed theology which is to reveal the lowly sinful helpless impotent condition of man and the high exalted sovereign position of God I mean he was in fact in one of his books declared how one of the greatest sins of the of the church was to make man aware of the sinful condition so there you have somebody who said with his lips that he had a great admiration for the three forms of unity but in reality of much if not most of his own personal outworking of his theology was light years away from the

Reformation yeah that happens a lot in Anglicanism as well because although subscription to the 39 articles was abolished in England in the 1870s you were still required to give assent and once that happened you know theology went one way you were sent it to the articles of them promptly forgot about them except for the

Evangelical Party of the church which kind of clung on to the articles was justifying their

Reformed position which of course is perfectly reasonable given the historical origins of the

Church of England and its association with the Reformation in Strasbourg in Zurich and in the

Palatinate and one of the things that has been a problem in Anglicanism is to a large extent the church historians particularly the

Anglican and Episcopal church historians kind of wrote the Continental Protestant Reformation out of the story and so what you get is a received narrative where the

Church of England is not part of the wider European movement is off on one side doing its own thing and you know people like Martin Buetzer and Paul Fagius and Peter Martyr from Italy who were brought over to England by Thomas Cramer to assist in the work of the

Reformation become foreign intruders and one of the things that has happened over the past 35 -40 years is through the work of people like Dermot McCulloch, Robert Whiting and Patrick Collinson was the first of that school they've re -evaluated the

English Reformation and demonstrated how much it was connected with the

Continental Reformation you know don't let the fact we still have bishops confuse you it's it you know that's really with the message but that hasn't really percolated through because the church in a sense has departed from its history and a little bit there's a little bit of a sense with an awful lot of what goes on in Anglicanism that the corporate memory of Anglicanism really doesn't go back much past about 1850 so in the

Episcopal Church you sort of have a sense that you know there's Samuel Seabury then there's the

Tractarians then there's liberal Anglican Catholicism at the end of the 19th century and the so -called broad church or liberal movement at the end of the 19th century and then after that everything's wonderful we're all good liberal whatever's and that's the modern

Episcopal Church and it misses out inconvenient information like the strength of the evangelical movement in the

Episcopal Church in the 19th century and the fact that there were some not particularly noisy but nonetheless present struggles between the old

Orthodoxy and the new liberalism on both the high church and low church sides of Episcopalianism you know that the old history is written by the victors tends to apply to church history as much as to any other branch of the subject by the way

I want to give our listeners our email address and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Bishop Peter D Robinson our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com please as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you are in a mainline

Episcopal Church you have something critical to say about your parish or your denomination obviously we would like you to remain anonymous or perhaps you're even a rector or a leader in a mainline

Episcopal Church or another stream of Episcopalianism and Anglicanism and you disagree with the leaders in your own parish in your own denomination there could be a reasons why people might want to remain anonymous but whatever the case is please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter otherwise if it's just a general question on history on history

I'm sorry and theology and doctrine just give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com and we do have a question from Bishop Robert S.

Bierman who is the Presiding Bishop of the Reformed Anglican Church he happens to be located in Port St.

Lucie Florida and by the way Bishop Bierman just so happens that my very first pastor of Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville Long Island New York now known as Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island New York and Merrick New York he now lives in Port St.

Lucie Florida and also runs a very crucial sponsor of this program from there that's the

Solid Ground Christian Books and their website is solid -ground -books .com

I would strongly urge you in fact I'm going to make sure that I put you two in contact with each other since you're neighbors but Bishop Bierman who is in a different but similar denomination than you he says in the book

Divided We Stand by Douglas Bess we see the history of many of those who broke away in 1977 from the

Episcopal Church many of today's conservative Anglican Church bodies trace their roots to the affirmation of St.

Louis back in 1996 I had a lengthy conversation with with Archbishop Oliver Lewis who was the

Metropolitan of the Anglican Catholic Church at that time he encouraged me not to despair as he called the continuing church the church in the wilderness his contention was that until the original founders were retired or gone and old and old rivalry rivalries forgotten the continuing church would have a difficult time in being the church it can truly be

Archbishop Lewis reminded me just like the church that just like the children in Israel it would take 40 years to heal and start to grow it had been 40 plus years and there seems to be the beginnings of more unity how can those of us that are biblical and considered low church get to begin to work whoops

I just lost the brother's email oh here it is how can those of us that are biblical and considered low church get to begin to work really together and for some reason it's cut off there really together and is it not our theology that divides us

I'm assuming he means Anglican Catholic from biblical low church okay let's do what we always seem to do in these circumstances answer the second question first which is yes

Anglicanism in the United States actually Anglicanism worldwide has essentially three theologies you have

Anglican Catholicism which has its own tradition based on the seven ecumenical councils the traditions of the church scripture and what

I would call a Catholic read of the prayer book then you have liberalism which sort of is heritage

Anglicanism which can be really weird at times you could you can go to what are liturgically very conservative churches and find that whoever is in the pulpit is a functional

Unitarian then you have the low church what

I would call the confessional approach to Anglicanism which regards the 39 articles the prayer book and the books of homilies as being the foundation of Anglican theology and for 150 years those three tried living under the same roof and it wasn't always terribly pretty but because the fundamentals the

Bible the sacraments the creeds and the ministry were shared

Anglicans could make it work but that's really begun to unravel over the last 50 50 to 60 years the first problem was the denial of the creed the denial of the authority of scripture by the liberals and that meant that they had a very different focus theologically to the rest of the church of course the old tensions between reformed leaning low church and the

Catholic wing of the church were brought more sharply into contrast once they moved into the continuing church bodies and then inevitably the continuing church was going to split now the tragedy is it didn't just simply split high and low because personalities got involved so you have multiple low church for want of a better word

Anglican denominations you have multiple anglo -catholic

Anglican denominations and you have a few people in the middle who try and stick both together and hope it works so yeah there is a theological problem there to start with on the low church side of Anglicanism or the historically

Protestant side of Anglicanism I think the main thing is to is to start talking to each other and finding out one of the problems with the low church party as opposed to the high church party is the high church party tend to all know each other and that isn't the case on the low church side we've tended to have a traditional almost of being regional so the

UEC tends to be fairly strong in Virginia or North Carolina and a couple of other places in the country the

Anglican Orthodox Church is further south the Reformed Anglican Church has a scatter of parishes here there and everywhere and we don't really have the same sort of momentum going in terms of everybody getting to know everybody else that exists with the high church movement and I think that's a little bit because the tendency with the

Protestant side of Anglicanism is most of us started off in broadly based continuing

Anglican churches and found out that we were really the unwanted relative and so we took the hint and moved out but we didn't really end up moving into a single

Protestant Anglican grouping we ended up scattered here there and everywhere and it is something that we need to deal with but the other thing

I have learned I've been involved with continuing Anglicanism for 27 years is that if you push merger and outward unity before you have agreement on doctrine and practice you can often end up with the situation where you know two bodies go in and five come out back in the 1990s the

Anglican Catholic Church and the American Episcopal Church attempted merger and those two groups went in and the

Anglican Catholic Church original province the Holy Catholic Church Anglican right the

Anglican Church in America the Anglican province in America and also the

Holy Catholic Church Western right came out of the merger because it it was really a papering over the cracks job driven by the personalities at the top and as a result of that it blew up in everybody's face and I think everybody learned the lesson from that because nobody's tried a wallpaper job since then in terms of trying to patch two jurisdictions together without working through a lot of the issues that are associated with ethos and you know they can be non doctrinal issues such as you have a church that is very much top -down you know the bishops having a lot of control and another group which is not that way and when you put them together the two fight like dog and cat because they don't like each other's way of working so you know unifying jurisdictions can often be quite a bit difficult task but that does not absolve us from attempting it not least because of our

Lord's prayer for the unity of his faithful we have to go to a first break right now if anybody wants to join us our email address is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com by the way

I just want to give a plug to the denomination of our listener who sent in the question the

Reformed Anglican Church website is reformedanglican .church reformedanglican .church

don't go away we will be back right after these messages with more of Bishop Peter D.

Robinson and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopalian bodies don't go away.

When Iron Trump and Zion Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Trump and Zion Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia and the NASB is my

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

Iron Trump and Zion Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Go to nasbible .com that's nasbible .com to place your order.

Hi this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

Iron Trump and Zion Podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support that's ironsharpensironradio .com. Here's what

Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

Good to be back Chris. I always enjoy our time. You have to say you're one of the better interviewers out there and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday 4 to 6 p .m

eastern time at ironsharpensironradio .com. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good.

I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding. No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but I'll give it a shot.

Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in Italy used for my

Nessie Allen 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding go to ptlbiblerebinding .com

that's ptlbiblerebinding .com Chris Arnsen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine by trusted source for news from a

Christian perspective. Try World now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com

that's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine on -scene reporting from World Radio and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

today. Also check out World News Group's podcast The World and Everything in It at wng .org

forward slash podcast that's w for world n for news g for group .org

forward slash podcast. Dr.

Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love.

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church go to hopereformedli .net

that's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family

Bhanu Gadi owner of three New York pharmacies Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

To find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at leesdrugsrx .com

that's l -e -e -s drugs r -x dot com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

In Psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

He saw God's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what

God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust

God's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

When the whole world is searching for a solution God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious.

Such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not erupt in praise to our great

God like the psalmist did. May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

Thank you. Hello. Welcome back.

This is Chris Ormson and I'm sorry folks that we still have these problems with my audio.

It's only on my end. I'm obviously the least interesting person in this conversation anyway but for some reason my audio and only my audio it seems is muffled and low lower than normal so please bear with me and hopefully it will be rectified before the end of the program.

Today we have as our guest Bishop Peter D. Robinson presiding bishop of the

United Episcopal Church of North America a biblically faithful and confessional Episcopalian denomination.

We are discussing the fall of the Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies.

Our email address is Chris Ormson at gmail .com. Chris Ormson at gmail .com

and as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We do have another listener with a question for you. Let's see here we have a first time questioner and his name is

Wayne from Wildwood Florida. He actually has a few questions and since they're all very good

I will ask all three of them. I don't usually give our listeners the luxury of asking three questions but as the church shifted over the centuries how did the role of clergy change in the public square?

One has to say from the 16th century to the 20th century not very much.

There is a contrast though between England and Wales where for much of that period the

Anglican church was the established church and therefore had a public position and the

American colonies where with the exception of Maryland Virginia and North Carolina Anglicanism was very much one denomination amongst many and I think probably the from my point of view the most notable thing about clergy in the public square is the way which the role of the clergy has declined in the last century or century and a half and society is touching faith in things like the new religion of science and the cult of the professional and that sort of profoundly changed society as it becomes a less religious more secular society and one that is more and more inclined to have purely subjective which is ironic given the insistence on science purely subjective ideas about morality and the nature of society.

Okay we have another question from Wayne. How have vestments changed in the biblically faithful episcopal bodies?

I actually have a follow -up question of my own about that but if you could. Well basically for 300 years vestments in Anglicanism were limited to cassock, surplus, scarf or tippet is the same thing it has two names and your university hood and the use of the gown in the pulpit

I mean that was just the way we rolled. Then in cathedrals the cope was permitted and of course bishops retained their rostrum which is their old parliamentary and choir dress and as a result of that um you have great uniformity down to about 1860 and then they start playing around with things like eucharistic vestments and stoles and things like that as a manifestation of a return to a more catholic theology.

Now actually theologically speaking traditional Anglicanism was a lot closer to Lutheranism in its understanding of externals than it was to the reformed tradition.

We're not we're regulative principle but it's modified in the sense that it's more if scripture doesn't ban it it's permitted and it's a little the closest in terms of vesture and gesture to Anglicanism from the first couple of hundred years were the

Lutheran churches of southwestern Germany where reformed influence had caused them to get rid of eucharistic vestments but they hadn't ditched the old choir vestments that the ones that were worn for the daily offices and of course all that begins to change in the 19th century.

One of the big changes in the 20th century in a sense is whereas vestments tended to be very clearly party labels in the late 19th and the early 20th century today it's more a case of aesthetics and so you get churches which are on the biblically orthodox and conservative side which to all intents and purposes look high but in fact you know theologically if you scratch below the surface they are in line with the historic reformed understanding of Anglicanism which is all a little bit weird but the analogy

I would draw there is with Lutheranism where vestments have not really been a terribly good indicator of theology throughout their history.

Well I'm going to go now to our midway break and fortunately folks these breaks come up faster than we would like but that is the only way we remain on the air is through our advertisers and of course through our generous donors and benefactors so if you could be patient with us please as we have this longer than normal break it is because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City Florida who airs this program in a pre -recorded format twice daily in morning drive 8 to 10 a .m.

and the evening 8 to 10 p .m. they need to and according to FCC regulations air public service announcements and other things that localize

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to Lake City Florida. So please use this time wisely write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so you can more frequently and successfully patronize them so that they want to remain our advertisers because it's the only way we will remain on the air is through their funding and also send in questions to Bishop Peter D.

Robinson at chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

don't go away we're going to be right back with Bishop Robinson after these messages from our sponsors.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air like the

Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books manuscripts and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture dissemination of scripture to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

Bible's reliability and to introduce reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

Since 2004 HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the northeast United States reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

Bible. HBS's founder Daniel P. Buttafuoco attorney at law is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.

Come journey through their website historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century

Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the

Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible and much much more. Visit historicalbiblesociety .org

today. Thank you Daniel P. Buttafuoco attorney at law for your faithful support of Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit lindbrookbaptist .org.

That's lindbrookbaptist .org. Learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples, singles, men, women, pastors, seniors and missionaries.

90 miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly and 95 miles from Wilmington and easily accessible scores of notable

Christian groups frequently plan conferences at Harvey Cedars like the Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade and the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org.

hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689.

609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

Christian perspective. Try World now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com.

That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting. I gain insight from the analysis and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org

forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,

that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sulay Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens Jr. of the

Church in Friendship in Hopley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit lynnbrookbaptist .org. That's lynnbrookbaptist .org. Was your business shut down during the

COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good. The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands.

You filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause.

The pandemic exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.

Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco & Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Buttafuoco & Associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation, and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.

It is the best way for you to proceed. There's absolutely no risk to you. You do not have to pay them out of pocket, and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim.

You need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now.

Trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on Long Island, New York, are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit.

Buttafuoco & Associates, here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic.

Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. Charles Hatton Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget folks, make your very first stop for all of your gift -giving needs at solid -ground -books .com,

solid -ground -books .com. Solid Ground Christian Books is a premier, a primary sponsor of this program.

We cannot exist without their financial support, other than miracle of God. And so we ask of you, in order to keep

Solid Ground Christian Books thriving, please make as frequent purchases as you can, and always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Orenson and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, because in doing so they will likely continue sponsoring this program, which will keep us on the air subsequently.

That's solid -ground -books .com. And remember folks, you're not only going to be doing yourself, or should

I say, you're not only going to be doing Solid Ground Christian Books a favor by purchasing books from them, but you're going to be doing yourself a favor because they carry the finest in Christian literature from the past and present.

And for our Episcopalian and Anglican listeners, you should know that they do have many books, both by great

Anglican heroes of the past, and also some contemporary writings by conservative

Bible -believing Anglicans and Episcopalians that they have in print. So go to solid -ground -books .com,

solid -ground -books .com. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Orenson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to our interview with Bishop Robinson, I just want to remind our listeners that if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer a snail mail, you can mail in a check made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to the address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

You can also advertise with us as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something compatible with what we believe here.

You could send in your email, I should say, to chrisorenson at gmail .com,

chrisorenson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line. Also, folks, if you are donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, which we hope you do frequently and generously, because we need your donations to remain in existence, please never rob your own church, and I mean that somewhat figuratively, but don't take money away, money from your regular giving to your local church in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Those two things are commands of God providing for your church and your home. So if you're struggling to survive, and you're not paying your bills because you just find it impossible, just please wait until the

Lord blesses you financially before you bless us with your giving. But if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, above and beyond your ability to provide for church and home, please give as frequently as you can and as generously as you can to ironsharpensironradio .com

and click support, then click click to donate now. We are in urgent need of your donations and your advertising dollars because we lost our two largest financial supporters due to the coronavirus pandemic hysteria.

Their businesses were hurt so badly by this pandemic hysteria that they had to at least temporarily withdraw from any further financial support of this program.

That may change, we don't know that, but until then please help us make up for that huge loss by going to ironsharpensironradio .com

click support, then click click to donate now. Also folks, if you are not a member of a local bible -believing church, and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, please rectify that situation.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth, and I may be able to help you find a church as I have already done with many listeners in our audience from all parts of the world.

So if you do not know of a church that exists in your area, I may know of one that's within a minute's drive of your house and you don't even know it exists, send it to send in your inquiry to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line, whether it's for your own needs to obey the scriptures and be under the authority of local bible -believing church leaders, or if it is for friends and family and loved ones that do not have a biblically sound church that they're aware of wherever they live on the planet, or if you're going somewhere on vacation and you need or if you desire to honor

God by by visiting a church while you're on vacation, send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church yes put I need a church in the subject line. Forgive me for being distracted as I am trying to rectify this audio problem,

I think that I may have finally at least improved my audio, but that's also the email address to send in a question to Bishop Peter D.

Robinson. We are discussing the fall of the Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

and before the break we were going over some questions by a listener,

Wayne in Wildwood, Florida, a first -time listener, and I had my own question about vestments.

I had been told, and I was wondering if you could confirm this or if you have a different opinion on this,

I was told by a traditionalist Protestant 39 articles

Anglican churchman that the reason why

Roman Catholic priests wear the typical clerical collar that most folks are accustomed to seeing them wearing is because it became a phenomenon, especially

I think if I'm not mistaken in the 19th century, perhaps in the 18th, for Roman Catholic priests to actually imitate or borrow

Episcopal and Anglican churchmen by wearing the same collars that they did.

Now is that true? Not quite. The clerical collar as it's known today was actually invented by a

Presbyterian. Strange to relate. But the

Roman Catholics did borrow from Protestants on the clerical collars though then? Yeah, basically if you were somewhere like the

United Kingdom or the United States where the majority culture was

Protestant, it was expedient to blend into the background as much as possible.

So rather than wearing the Catholic and the soup plate hat that was pretty characteristic of Roman Catholic clerics in say

Spain or Italy, they would tend to wear a black suit and a clerical collar like the

Presbyterians and the Episcopalians. It was a case of blending into the background so they didn't get a lot of hostile attention.

Now one more question of my own on that issue. I have some acquaintances in the

Sydney, Australia diocese of the Anglican church, predominantly low church

Calvinists. I would be in much agreement with much of what they believe and teach and some of them at least have demonstrated opposition to clerical outfits at all.

Vestments and collars and so on. Now why is this such an important issue to Anglicans to maintain vestments and collars and that kind of thing?

A lot of it has to do with the fact that you are dealing with what

I would call the fitness of things. A minister is not in the final analysis a private individual.

He has a public duty to his congregation and to a certain extent it is helpful if ministers are identifiable by their garb.

And I think what we run into to a certain extent is those who want to reject vestments they start out with the historical premise that Christian ministers in the early days didn't wear distinctive dress.

Well of course they didn't, they were under persecution. And then they sort of elevated into an overarching principle.

Certainly from the time in at which Christianity became a public religion as opposed to a semi -private persecuted one.

There have been ways of recognizing Christian clergy as being Christian clergy.

The Eucharistic vestments of the church are basically stylized versions of late classical middle class dress.

And what gets forgotten is that certain things like the stole, you know the long strip of colored cloth was originally actually a badge of dignity that was given to the clergy.

It originally belonged to Roman judges that was given to the clergy in the fourth century as Christianity became increasingly the religion of the empire.

So the relationship between vestments and Christianity is a lot more complicated than is often assumed.

The other thing that can be an interesting line of biblical exegesis is what is the relationship between the temple and Christian worship.

There's a tendency to oversimplify and say that you know the church is descended from the synagogue and to do away anything that smacks of the temple.

But you know even post -reformation Anglicanism had a fascination with the temple as a model for churches.

So for instance in the work of Nicholas Hawksbore who designed some new churches for London at the beginning of the 18th century, you find the proportions of Solomon's temple become influential in the proportions of the churches.

So as far as Anglican liturgics and architecture are concerned, we have people who would argue very strongly against that minimalist utilitarian streak.

And also I think you actually find that in the broader reformed world. There are reformed churches that are quite formal.

And by the way that is in contrast, I believe I know what you're speaking of. You're speaking of the warehouse appearance that many megachurches have as opposed to the simplicity of the historic low church

Anglicans. Right. Where there were no statues and no fancy candlesticks and altars and so on.

You're not talking about that. You're speaking of the warehouse appearance. Yeah and everything being on wheels so it can be rolled out of the way so the band's got more room and things like that.

There's a sort of element there of the fitness of things. If you'd have gone into an 18th century

Anglican church very often in England they were divided into two rooms. The root screen was retained.

The loft which would contain the crucifix and the figures of St. Mary and St. John would have been taken down in the 1560s.

And if Cromwell's men hadn't got to the root screen the chancel would have been used for communion and furnished accordingly with a communion table up against the east wall covered decently with a so -called velvet altar cloth.

There would have been communion rails around it. Probably two candlesticks that were never light lit and an arms basin placed on the communion table.

And then there would have been seats for the communicants around it. And then the nave, the main body of the church, would have been used separately for morning and evening prayer and would have focused on what is affectionately known as the three -decker pulpit which consists of a seat for the clerk who was roughly equivalent to the presenter in the

Presbyterian tradition. And then the middle level was for the minister to read the sermon and then the top level was the pulpit from which he preached.

And the churches were used as two rooms, each specifically fitted up for its designated function, the chancel for communion, the nave for morning and evening prayer and the litany.

English churches were not there after the Reformation. Very often they had sentences of scripture written up on the wall with decorated borders around them.

J .C. Ryle, one of J .C. Ryle's two churches in Suffolk, I think it's Helmingham, still has his mid -19th century scheme of scriptures written up on the walls and it's quite decorative.

But what disappeared was the emphasis on the saints.

The statuary, the graven images disappeared, but it didn't mean the churches were, you know, sort of all bare nails and whitewash.

But what was felt to be contrary to the Ten Commandments was taken away.

That's interesting that you said that, because my friend who I mentioned the last time you were on, my dear friend,

Reverend Jacob Smith of the parish of Calvary St.

George's in Manhattan, a low church, Reformed Calvinistic 39

Articles Episcopal Church. He was lamenting during my tour of the

St. George's building in contrast with the

Calvary building. They are two different facilities and one happens to be a higher church appearance and more ornate, even though the worship is still today low church.

The St. George's parish was Stephen Ting's design of being very simple and low church.

But he said that, I believe it was in the 1970s, the rector there, who was an apostate and liberal, tore down the original

Ten Commandments banner that Ting had on the wall there behind the pulpit.

Yeah, well, the Ten Commandments were commanded by the royal injunctions of 15—sorry, the archbishop's injunctions of 1565.

They were a standard piece of kit in Anglican churches up until the middle of the 19th century.

And usually what you found on the east walls of churches, usually the east wall of the chancel, although other arrangements were possible, were four boards, one containing the first table of the law, which is

Commandments 1 through 4, the second table of the law in the middle, and then on either side, the

Lord's Prayer and the Creed. The Lord's Prayer and the Creed because they appear in every

Anglican service, and the Ten Commandments because they are the basis of Christian discipline.

And that was just an accepted part of the furniture. My home parish in Lincolnshire, it was more in the old

Protestant high church tradition when it had its first restoration in the 19th century, and they renewed the commandment boards at that time, making them part of the reridos behind the altar.

So, you know, it was ingrained in Anglicanism to have the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the

Lord's Prayer up in some prominent position in the church. Wayne, who is our listener who has written these three questions, added a fourth, and the reason

I'm going to mention it is that it is of great benefit to my sponsor,

Solid Ground Christian Books. He asked, what was the name of that used bookstore that I mentioned earlier?

Number one, it's not a used bookstore. It's a publisher that happens to be headquartered in Port St.

Lucie, Florida, but it is a publisher that has brought back into print centuries -old

Reformed literature, including literature by Anglicans and Episcopalians, and also at least one contemporary author that I know of who is a

Protestant Calvinist Anglican, but it's Solid Ground Christian Books, and of course it's not just exclusively

Anglican. They have brought back into print and published contemporary works by Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists and other confessionally

Reformed evangelicals. That website, Wayne, is solid -ground -books .com

solid -ground -books .com. And Wayne's final question is, it appears that the recent

Supreme Court nominee is going to be attacked because of her Catholic dogma.

Why should this concern biblical faithful Christians? And obviously the

Catholic teachings that she's being attacked for are not transubstantiation or the primacy of the papacy.

It is her views against abortion and same -sex marriage and other things.

That's really what she's being attacked for. But if you could answer Wayne's question on that, why should

Protestant Anglicans, 39 Articles Churchmen, why should they be concerned about this

Roman Catholic appointee or nominee for the Supreme Court? To be quite honest,

I'm not concerned about her being appointed. I'm more concerned about her not being appointed.

Because from my point of view, that is a signal that, or a further signal, that the political elite in this country has declared war on Christianity.

And it's an implicit statement that anyone who professes

Orthodox Christian morality is no longer welcome in the political and judicial sphere in this country.

And that, in a very real sense, is a repudiation of what the

American experiment was all about. I mean, to be quite honest, the

Anglicans came to Virginia to make money. But, you know, the Puritan influence a little later on in Massachusetts was about creating the godly

Commonwealth. So even in those colonies where pre -profession of religion was a integral part of their heritage, for instance

Pennsylvania and Rhode Island, nonetheless the whole thing was undergirded by a common morality.

And the problem with secularization in America is it creates an ideological vacuum into which they want to intrude the state.

And if you say that Christians are no longer fit to hold office in government or in the judiciary, you are creating a very lopsided presentation of the cultural heritage of this country.

The other thing is that, you know, if you look back in judicial tradition, the first commentator on English common law,

Blackstone, back in the 18th century, I mean, he was quite firm that abortion was murder.

And that was under the common law of England. I mean, the only distinction he made was during the first 13 weeks it was manslaughter, and then after that it was full -blown premeditated murder.

So, you know, when they're making a legal argument in favor of abortion, it's often very lopsided and not altogether fully in accord with the common law traditions that are common to both the

United States and the United Kingdom. I'll just throw that one out as something to get people wound up.

But when it boils down to it, though, the reason why Bible -believing evangelicals, even those who theologically oppose, vehemently oppose and vociferously oppose

Roman dogma regarding the gospel and the

Council of Trent, is because what this nominee believes in that has anything to do with her duties as a

Supreme Court justice are issues that are shared by Bible -believing

Christians. Right. I mean, there's a moral uniformity. I mean, there are a few little differences.

There's a moral uniformity between conservative and evangelical

Protestants and Roman Catholics. And we shouldn't let our doctrinal disagreements blind us to that.

Right. And as I've said, as far as I'm concerned also, on the flip side of the coin, although I believe to a certain extent in co -belligerism,

I believe in working in the public square side by side with those who do not believe in the biblical gospel, who share the same moral and social beliefs,

I do not believe in what is called modern ecumenism, where during religious and spiritual events and organizations, you have people who believe in the gospel, linking arms with those who reject it, and are both presenting themselves as a united body of Christ.

I am very opposed to that latter idea that blurs the importance of the gospel.

And by the way, thank you very much, Wayne, and keep listening to Iron Sherpa's Zarn Radio.

And by the way, all of our first -time listeners or first -time questioners who submitted questions today, you're getting a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB who are major sponsors of this program.

So if you would like one of these free NASB Bibles, give me your full mailing address.

We have Robert in Waynesboro, Virginia, who says, given the

American Christian Protestant and even revivalism, to what extent do the

Anglo -Catholics help or hinder Anglican evangelism and discipleship that would build up the size of congregations?

And another question I would like to add to that is that, should that be necessarily a major concern about building the size, especially at the expense of teaching?

Anglo -Catholicism is kind of a thing off on its own. And to what degree people's perception of Anglicanism as a whole is covered by Anglo -Catholicism depends on where you are in the country.

Anglo -Catholicism's homeland really is Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, and then around Chicago.

And then elsewhere in the country, the old Episcopal Church tends to be rather middle of the road.

So, you know, a lot of people have heard of Anglo -Catholicism, but have never actually experienced it.

I think what is actually more difficult for Anglicanism is people do have to make a very definite translation between, and it's not just Anglicanism, it also applies to other confessional

Reformed and Lutheran groups. There's a very different atmosphere between American Revivalism and the old confessional

Protestant groups. And it comes about because of this emphasis on the confession as opposed to Emotionalism and a somewhat, forgive me for saying this, a somewhat simplistic

Biblicism. And actually, in a funny sort of a way,

Anglo -Catholicism and Revivalism, with their emphasis on emotion, not doctrine, actually have a lot in common.

They're just the opposite poles of the same phenomenon. And it's part of the 19th century shift from religion, particularly

Christianity, being very largely a matter of belief and social -religious structure, to it being a consumer product.

In early America, your religion shaped a great deal of your political and social beliefs.

And it was something that was central to who you were as an individual. In the 19th century, it shifts to the point where very often religion becomes something that is a private issue, something that you find emotionally satisfying.

And it's really a move from a objective to a subjective relationship with religion.

So one of the things I think people have to be ready for if they move into a confessional church is you are moving into an environment where the

Bible and the Confession forms what is believed, rather than the subjective individual experience of the believer.

Now that's difficult for a lot of people. I didn't answer the question there, did

I? I think you just did fine.

And we have to go to our final break right now. It's going to be much more brief than the last two. If you intend to join us with a question of your own, please send in your question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Anthony Uvino, founder of thereformrookie .com

and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the NASB is my

Bible of choice. I'm Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics and staff member with the

Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York. Pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Was your business shut down during the COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good. The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands.

You filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause.

The pandemic exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.

Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco & Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Buttafuoco & Associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation, and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.

It is the best way for you to proceed. There's absolutely no risk to you.

You do not have to pay them out of pocket, and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim.

You need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now.

Trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on Long Island, New York, are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit.

Buttafuoco & Associates, here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic.

Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. This is

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

We are excited to announce another new member of the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family, Banu Gadi, owner of three

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

Banu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com.

That's l -e -e -s -drugs -r -x .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final segment of today's interview with Bishop Peter D.

Robinson of the United Episcopal Church of North America. We have been discussing the fall of the

Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies, and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

If you have a question you'd like to ask before we run out of time, we have Richard in Lawrence, Kansas.

Regarding the slide of Anglicanism into liberalism, what do you see as the series of causes that precipitated that?

Obviously, that was what we've been discussing, especially in part one that was last week, your interview that was last week, but I know that you had said during that interview the primary cause, in your opinion, was a lightening of the seriousness of confessionalism, in this case the 39 articles, which were lowered in their significance, if not altogether abandoned.

Yeah, I mean, it's partly the decline of confessionalism which goes hand in hand with the creeping acceptance of hierarchicism of the

Bible, and that chips away both at the biblical basis of the

Church and the confessional basis of the Church, making it a safe place for theological liberals to live in.

Well, thank you, Richard, in Kansas, and I remind all of our first -time questioners,

I don't think Richard was a first -time questioner, but anybody who was a first -time questioner, you're going to get a free

New American Standard Bible if indeed you give me your mailing address, and that will be shipped to you by CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, who are sponsors of this program.

We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says, where do you place the charismatic

Episcopal Church in the fall category or the rise of biblically faithful Episcopalian category, or a bit of both?

That's interesting that he asked that. I have friends and acquaintances in the charismatic

Episcopal Church, some who seem very sound, other than our differences, our major differences on the charismatic gifts,

I am a cessationist myself, but I also have encountered very Romish Oxford movement folks in the charismatic

Episcopal Church who I remember having years ago an online argument with one of them because he believed in prayer to Mary and the saints.

I don't know how common that is amongst charismatic Episcopalians, but if you could comment. Um, I think my feeling about them is, yeah, they're a little bit of both, really.

The charismatic movement is an awkward fit into the confessional movement, mainly because of its emphasis upon spiritual experience.

And the tendency of the charismatic movement when it comes into Anglicanism is you go from, and of course this image is a little bit wrong, but we often talk about the three -legged stool, it really should be a tricycle.

The three -legged stool are a scripture, tradition, and a reason. And of course, the joke being that three -legged stools tend to not wobble on uneven surfaces.

And when you get the fourth leg with the charismatic movement, um, you get a wobbly chair.

And the reason it's a wobbly chair is because occasionally with the charismatic movement, uh, spiritual experience can trump tradition, scripture, and reason.

So one of the phenomena in England has been the charismatics have come around very quickly to the ordination of women, because they regard it as part of the ongoing revelation of the

Holy Spirit to the Church. That's interesting, because I know at least one, uh, charismatic

Episcopalian priest who has actually returned to the

Pentecostal denomination he originally came from, uh, Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee, who is very, very opposed to the ordination of women.

And he said that it largely had to do with the ministers presiding over the

Eucharist, and according to him, that was impossible for, uh, a female, uh, in the

Church to lead and be involved in that, that, uh, that ordinance or sacrament of the

Church. But anyway, um, it's interesting that you say that. Yeah, I mean, the charismatic movement is a little bit of an odd fit in Anglicanism.

Uh, one of the things that ACNA has a problem with, um, is the way in which the differing elements, the

Anglo -Catholic, uh, the traditionally Protestant, and the charismatic elements within the

ACNA, uh, relate to one another. And that is something that, you know, the charismatic movement in Anglicanism hasn't yet got enough history for us to work out what the bugs are with that particular approach to Christianity, and how it references to the

Anglican tradition. Well, we are, uh, out of time. Uh, actually,

I'm sorry, I would like you to have a minute of uninterrupted time, at least, uh, a minute, perhaps a minute and a half, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to the fall of the

Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies. The fall of the

Episcopal Church was called by two things. The abandonment of the authority of Scripture, and the abandonment of the

Confessions. And the rise of the biblically

Orthodox Anglican bodies that have come into being in the last 50 years is very largely an attempt, hopefully blessed by God, uh, to return to a proper scriptural and confessional understanding of Anglicanism.

And it is our hope and our prayer that as time passes, more and more people will come to understand

Anglicanism, not through the prism of the liberal Episcopal Church, all through the

Anglo -Catholic tradition, but Anglicanism as part of the broader reformed

Christian landscape. Well, Bishop, uh,

Robinson, I want to thank you so much. I know that if you are willing, I would love to have you back as a frequently returning guest.

You have been utterly fascinating to me and edifying, and I want to make sure that our listeners have the website for the

United Episcopal Church of North America, unitedepiscopal .org, unitedepiscopal .org,

and I'm also going to repeat the website for Solid Ground Christian Books, since they do carry quite a bit of historic

Anglican literature that they have brought back into print, and even some contemporary things, uh, solid -ground -books .com,

solid -ground -books .com. And, uh, I want to thank everybody who listened to today's program, especially those who took the time to send in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater