September 28, 2020 Show with Peter Robinson on “The Fall of the Episcopal Church & the Rise of Biblically Faithful Episcopal Bodies” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 28th day of September 2020 and excuse me folks

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I'm fiddling with something I just had my voice correctly leveled in the studio and for some reason it's gotten very low again and I don't know why but anyway we're going to press on hopefully this situation will be rectified last week

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I believe it was yes in fact I know it was last Tuesday we began part one of a discussion with our guest today

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Bishop Peter Robinson on the fall of the Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies today we are going to be entering into part two of that discussion with Bishop Robinson he is the presiding bishop of the

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United Episcopal Church of North America and it's our honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Bishop Peter D.

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Robinson it's great to have you back brother and if you could once again give us a summary especially for the sake of our listeners who are hearing you for the very first time give us a summary of the

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United Episcopal Church of North America the United Episcopal Church in North America was founded in 1981 as a conservative alternative to the

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Episcopal Church but unlike most of the continuing Episcopal Churches it very much decided to put itself into the moderate to low church and reformed side of the

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Episcopal tradition and since then we have been trying to maintain that tradition in the

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United States and we have roughly 25 parishes some on the

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East Coast some in the Ozarks some in Arizona we're not a big church but hopefully we are one that is presenting a faithful witness now when you say that you wanted to place the new denomination or the denomination of the

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United Episcopal Church of North America when it was founded in the moderate to low church category would that be as opposed to the

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Anglo Catholic tradition that also can share the title traditionalist

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Anglican very often whether they legitimately do that or not yes really you have two traditions within the

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Episcopal Church and occasionally I somewhat unkindly say that they were kept together by the prayer book and just have it the slightly older tradition which

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I will describe as being moderate to low church is the old Protestant high churchmen and the evangelicals who were the bulk of the

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Episcopal Church in the late 18th and early 19th century and then

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Tractarianism which morphs into Anglo Catholicism really emerges in the

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United States about 1840 1845 about seven or eight years after it gets its start in England yes and as we mentioned last week it is ironic and I've got to be careful not to broad brush our brethren in the

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Reformed Episcopal denomination the Reformed Episcopal Church but it is somewhat ironic that they were founded to counteract or to protest against the rise of Anglo Catholicism the

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Tractarian movement the Oxford movement and yet today you have many in the so -called priesthood of the

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Reformed Episcopal Church who are themselves Anglo Catholic and Oxford movement and Tractarian men yeah a lot of that has to do with the way in which the

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REC repositioned itself in the 1980s it saw the new problems in the

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Episcopal Church as an opportunity to grow and it positioned itself more towards the center of the

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Anglican tradition I mean it always before that been a little bit off on one side in that when they were founded in 1873 they made a very strong appeal not to the

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Protestant tradition on its own but they also try to incorporate things like the 1786 draft prayer book which were very latitudinarian in style and one of the problems that gave them for example when dealing with people who were more familiar with the

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Episcopal tradition was for example the version of the

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Creed that was used in 1786 the the Apostles Creed lacks the he descended into hell clause there were a lot of little things that used to upset even low church

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Episcopalians when they dealt with the REC and the REC rather wisely in the late 70s early 80s began to down pedal a lot of the ways in which it was different from the old

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Episcopal Church so for example they reverted back to using put the 39 articles back in the first place downplayed the 35 articles of 1876 they started allowing the use of the surplus they came back more towards mainstream

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Anglicanism the only trouble is you know it's kind of kept going and so you know they re -embraced the mainstream of mainstream low church practice in the

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Episcopal Church then they embraced the mainstream of middle -of -the -road practice in the

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Episcopal Church and now they have their churches that border on the Anglo -Catholic tradition and it's almost a case of the

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REC is more a small conservative

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Episcopal Church like the Episcopal Church was back in the 1940s rather than necessarily having a distinctly

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Reformed witness. I see well I know that I do have friends and acquaintances who either are still in or used to be in the

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REC and and please forgive me if I am wrongly giving the impression to our listeners that everybody in the

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REC is an Anglo -Catholic or even leans that way I have spoken with men who are faithful Protestants and faithful Reformed churchmen in that denomination and so I just know that I have spoken with some even from that very category

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I mentioned who are dismayed by the inclusion of the

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Pussyates the Tractarians the Oxford movement men. Yeah really there's a sense in which the really high parishes are a very very small part of the

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REC. Generally the REC today is middle -of -the -road

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Episcopalianism kind of 1955 -1965 style but you get these old odd churches that worry everybody else.

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I'm sorry I didn't understand the last statement. You get the odd church that's rather Anglo -Catholic that makes everybody else worried.

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In other words you see them as they say climbing the candlestick too high. One or two have.

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The REC is like every church it has its pockets of things where you think well

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I hope that doesn't catch on because it really is not the tradition they are coming from.

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One of the problems really American Anglicanism has is no real strong sense of what its theological identity is and a lot of that is due to the fact that from the middle of the 19th century onwards the 39 articles were downplayed and of course there were successive revisions of the

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Book of Common Prayer which have gradually weakened the

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Reformed witness of the prayer book. So for example 1789 revision is still quite latitudinarian.

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1892 you begin to see the influence of the Oxford movement but it's not pronounced.

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Then in 1928 you get another little nudge in the direction of Tractarianism or as I should say by that date

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Anglo -Catholicism and also you see the influence of higher biblical criticism coming in in the way in which the daily office lectionary is organized in that they begin to try and create a historical narrative based on higher criticism of the

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Old Testament rather than just reading it through in course which had been the traditional Anglican approach.

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So the other thing that you have is that with the downplay of the articles there's a tendency for the

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Episcopal Church to become rather drafty in terms of the winds of doctrinal change blowing through.

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So you have your periods when German liberal theology is very influential and it becomes the counterpoint to the sort of liberal

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Anglo -Catholicism that was coming from England. Now I would say that that is true of those that become weak on confessionalism in general.

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Spanning denominations and fellowships and brotherhoods I would say that is true amongst the

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Baptists who have either never embraced or abandoned the 1689

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London Baptist Confession also known as the Second London Confession or the

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Philadelphia Confession and of course you have a really vivid example of utter apostasy in Congregationalism where the

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Savoy Declaration is no longer adhered to or even viewed as something favorable or positive it's shunned like the plague by most who wear the title

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Congregationalists in this day and age. And I say most because there are biblically faithful Congregationalists but the

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United Church of Christ which has its roots in Puritanism I believe is by and large an apostate denomination and then of course you do have some or most in the

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PCUSA who have abandoned the Westminster Confession and going back to the

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REC one of the reasons why this is a sensitive subject to me I know that I have mentioned this before on my program but when my late uncle in Washington State was considering leaving the

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Episcopal Church over liberalism he was a staunch conservative he was tinkering with the idea of becoming

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Roman Catholic because I don't know if he was not aware of a truly confessionally

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Protestant Anglican churches or if the theological issues were above his pay grade

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I'm not really sure what the issue was with that but I began a search for REC churches and other traditional

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Protestant Anglican churches near him and I had a conversation with a

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Reformed Episcopal priest who mocked me and said that I was a moron for being concerned about my uncle converting to the

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Catholicism and he actually said I have more in common with my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ than with morons like you

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I was utterly shocked by that Oh interesting pastoral approach yeah regardless of where he's coming from but I was especially shocked that it was an

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REC pastor I was very naive about the rise of Oxford Movement men in that denomination at the time

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One of the things that I think is particularly awkward for mainstream denominations is there seems to be a tendency when they start going liberal when two denominations that are beginning to go liberal merge it's almost as though you know liberalism squares or at least doubles every time denominations merge so for example the

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UCC is a merger of two congregational bodies with the old

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Evangelical and Reformed Church and there was some liberal leaning leadership particularly on the evangelical side of the

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Evangelical and Reformed Church but you know they were nowhere near in the 1950s the positions that they were seen adopting in the 1970s and many of the old

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ENR churches would have been using the old Evangelical Catechism or the

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Heidelberg Catechism right up until the 1970s and still being to all intents and purposes quite conservative

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Bible based churches but the leadership of the denomination was off on its own tangent and I think a lot of that has to do with kind of the quasi -congregational nature of a lot of church government in America I mean you can keep things pretty pure down at parish level providing you don't look too much up the hierarchy of what's going on at committee level yes and of course there are denominations and groups that give lip service to confessions that are meaningless

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I can remember years ago my friend

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Michael Horton of the White Horse Inn who is a world -renowned

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Reformed author in the United Reformed Church of North America and also a faculty member at Westminster Seminary California I remember years ago back in the 90s

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I believe it was he was interviewing Robert Shuler on the

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White Horse Inn not because he was in agreement with Dr. Shuler the late

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Dr. Shuler but because he wanted to demonstrate how Dr.

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Shuler although he has a had a profession of being Reformed was really far from it in regard to the historicity of what that word means and he during that interview declared that he had great love for the

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Heidelberg Catechism and the Belgian Confession and the Canons of Dort and had recited by memory great portions of these creeds but it was obvious that this man's theology was in polar opposite to the core of Reformed theology which is to reveal the lowly sinful helpless impotent condition of man and the high exalted sovereign position of God I mean he was in fact in one of his books declared how one of the greatest sins of the of the church was to make man aware of the sinful condition so there you have somebody who said with his lips that he had a great admiration for the three forms of unity but in reality of much if not most of his own personal outworking of his theology was light years away from the

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Reformation yeah that happens a lot in Anglicanism as well because although subscription to the 39 articles was abolished in England in the 1870s you were still required to give assent and once that happened you know theology went one way you were sent it to the articles of them promptly forgot about them except for the

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Evangelical Party of the church which kind of clung on to the articles was justifying their

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Reformed position which of course is perfectly reasonable given the historical origins of the

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Church of England and its association with the Reformation in Strasbourg in Zurich and in the

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Palatinate and one of the things that has been a problem in Anglicanism is to a large extent the church historians particularly the

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Anglican and Episcopal church historians kind of wrote the Continental Protestant Reformation out of the story and so what you get is a received narrative where the

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Church of England is not part of the wider European movement is off on one side doing its own thing and you know people like Martin Buetzer and Paul Fagius and Peter Martyr from Italy who were brought over to England by Thomas Cramer to assist in the work of the

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Reformation become foreign intruders and one of the things that has happened over the past 35 -40 years is through the work of people like Dermot McCulloch, Robert Whiting and Patrick Collinson was the first of that school they've re -evaluated the

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English Reformation and demonstrated how much it was connected with the

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Continental Reformation you know don't let the fact we still have bishops confuse you it's it you know that's really with the message but that hasn't really percolated through because the church in a sense has departed from its history and a little bit there's a little bit of a sense with an awful lot of what goes on in Anglicanism that the corporate memory of Anglicanism really doesn't go back much past about 1850 so in the

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Episcopal Church you sort of have a sense that you know there's Samuel Seabury then there's the

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Tractarians then there's liberal Anglican Catholicism at the end of the 19th century and the so -called broad church or liberal movement at the end of the 19th century and then after that everything's wonderful we're all good liberal whatever's and that's the modern

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Episcopal Church and it misses out inconvenient information like the strength of the evangelical movement in the

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Episcopal Church in the 19th century and the fact that there were some not particularly noisy but nonetheless present struggles between the old

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Orthodoxy and the new liberalism on both the high church and low church sides of Episcopalianism you know that the old history is written by the victors tends to apply to church history as much as to any other branch of the subject by the way

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I want to give our listeners our email address and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Bishop Peter D Robinson our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com please as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you are in a mainline

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Episcopal Church you have something critical to say about your parish or your denomination obviously we would like you to remain anonymous or perhaps you're even a rector or a leader in a mainline

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Episcopal Church or another stream of Episcopalianism and Anglicanism and you disagree with the leaders in your own parish in your own denomination there could be a reasons why people might want to remain anonymous but whatever the case is please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter otherwise if it's just a general question on history on history

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I'm sorry and theology and doctrine just give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and we do have a question from Bishop Robert S.

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Bierman who is the Presiding Bishop of the Reformed Anglican Church he happens to be located in Port St.

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Lucie Florida and by the way Bishop Bierman just so happens that my very first pastor of Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville Long Island New York now known as Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island New York and Merrick New York he now lives in Port St.

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Lucie Florida and also runs a very crucial sponsor of this program from there that's the

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Solid Ground Christian Books and their website is solid -ground -books .com

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I would strongly urge you in fact I'm going to make sure that I put you two in contact with each other since you're neighbors but Bishop Bierman who is in a different but similar denomination than you he says in the book

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Divided We Stand by Douglas Bess we see the history of many of those who broke away in 1977 from the

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Episcopal Church many of today's conservative Anglican Church bodies trace their roots to the affirmation of St.

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Louis back in 1996 I had a lengthy conversation with with Archbishop Oliver Lewis who was the

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Metropolitan of the Anglican Catholic Church at that time he encouraged me not to despair as he called the continuing church the church in the wilderness his contention was that until the original founders were retired or gone and old and old rivalry rivalries forgotten the continuing church would have a difficult time in being the church it can truly be

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Archbishop Lewis reminded me just like the church that just like the children in Israel it would take 40 years to heal and start to grow it had been 40 plus years and there seems to be the beginnings of more unity how can those of us that are biblical and considered low church get to begin to work whoops

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I just lost the brother's email oh here it is how can those of us that are biblical and considered low church get to begin to work really together and for some reason it's cut off there really together and is it not our theology that divides us

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I'm assuming he means Anglican Catholic from biblical low church okay let's do what we always seem to do in these circumstances answer the second question first which is yes

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Anglicanism in the United States actually Anglicanism worldwide has essentially three theologies you have

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Anglican Catholicism which has its own tradition based on the seven ecumenical councils the traditions of the church scripture and what

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I would call a Catholic read of the prayer book then you have liberalism which sort of is heritage

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Anglicanism which can be really weird at times you could you can go to what are liturgically very conservative churches and find that whoever is in the pulpit is a functional

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Unitarian then you have the low church what

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I would call the confessional approach to Anglicanism which regards the 39 articles the prayer book and the books of homilies as being the foundation of Anglican theology and for 150 years those three tried living under the same roof and it wasn't always terribly pretty but because the fundamentals the

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Bible the sacraments the creeds and the ministry were shared

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Anglicans could make it work but that's really begun to unravel over the last 50 50 to 60 years the first problem was the denial of the creed the denial of the authority of scripture by the liberals and that meant that they had a very different focus theologically to the rest of the church of course the old tensions between reformed leaning low church and the

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Catholic wing of the church were brought more sharply into contrast once they moved into the continuing church bodies and then inevitably the continuing church was going to split now the tragedy is it didn't just simply split high and low because personalities got involved so you have multiple low church for want of a better word

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Anglican denominations you have multiple anglo -catholic

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Anglican denominations and you have a few people in the middle who try and stick both together and hope it works so yeah there is a theological problem there to start with on the low church side of Anglicanism or the historically

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Protestant side of Anglicanism I think the main thing is to is to start talking to each other and finding out one of the problems with the low church party as opposed to the high church party is the high church party tend to all know each other and that isn't the case on the low church side we've tended to have a traditional almost of being regional so the

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UEC tends to be fairly strong in Virginia or North Carolina and a couple of other places in the country the

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Anglican Orthodox Church is further south the Reformed Anglican Church has a scatter of parishes here there and everywhere and we don't really have the same sort of momentum going in terms of everybody getting to know everybody else that exists with the high church movement and I think that's a little bit because the tendency with the

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Protestant side of Anglicanism is most of us started off in broadly based continuing

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Anglican churches and found out that we were really the unwanted relative and so we took the hint and moved out but we didn't really end up moving into a single

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Protestant Anglican grouping we ended up scattered here there and everywhere and it is something that we need to deal with but the other thing

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I have learned I've been involved with continuing Anglicanism for 27 years is that if you push merger and outward unity before you have agreement on doctrine and practice you can often end up with the situation where you know two bodies go in and five come out back in the 1990s the

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Anglican Catholic Church and the American Episcopal Church attempted merger and those two groups went in and the

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Anglican Catholic Church original province the Holy Catholic Church Anglican right the

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Anglican Church in America the Anglican province in America and also the

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Holy Catholic Church Western right came out of the merger because it it was really a papering over the cracks job driven by the personalities at the top and as a result of that it blew up in everybody's face and I think everybody learned the lesson from that because nobody's tried a wallpaper job since then in terms of trying to patch two jurisdictions together without working through a lot of the issues that are associated with ethos and you know they can be non doctrinal issues such as you have a church that is very much top -down you know the bishops having a lot of control and another group which is not that way and when you put them together the two fight like dog and cat because they don't like each other's way of working so you know unifying jurisdictions can often be quite a bit difficult task but that does not absolve us from attempting it not least because of our

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Lord's prayer for the unity of his faithful we have to go to a first break right now if anybody wants to join us our email address is

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Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com by the way

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I just want to give a plug to the denomination of our listener who sent in the question the

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Reformed Anglican Church website is reformedanglican .church reformedanglican .church

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don't go away we will be back right after these messages with more of Bishop Peter D.

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Robinson and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopalian bodies don't go away.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

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In Psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

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When the whole world is searching for a solution God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious.

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Such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not erupt in praise to our great

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God like the psalmist did. May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

46:37

Thank you. Hello. Welcome back.

46:44

This is Chris Ormson and I'm sorry folks that we still have these problems with my audio.

46:51

It's only on my end. I'm obviously the least interesting person in this conversation anyway but for some reason my audio and only my audio it seems is muffled and low lower than normal so please bear with me and hopefully it will be rectified before the end of the program.

47:13

Today we have as our guest Bishop Peter D. Robinson presiding bishop of the

47:20

United Episcopal Church of North America a biblically faithful and confessional Episcopalian denomination.

47:28

We are discussing the fall of the Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies.

47:34

Our email address is Chris Ormson at gmail .com. Chris Ormson at gmail .com

47:41

and as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

47:47

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

47:54

We do have another listener with a question for you. Let's see here we have a first time questioner and his name is

48:08

Wayne from Wildwood Florida. He actually has a few questions and since they're all very good

48:15

I will ask all three of them. I don't usually give our listeners the luxury of asking three questions but as the church shifted over the centuries how did the role of clergy change in the public square?

48:34

One has to say from the 16th century to the 20th century not very much.

48:42

There is a contrast though between England and Wales where for much of that period the

48:52

Anglican church was the established church and therefore had a public position and the

48:58

American colonies where with the exception of Maryland Virginia and North Carolina Anglicanism was very much one denomination amongst many and I think probably the from my point of view the most notable thing about clergy in the public square is the way which the role of the clergy has declined in the last century or century and a half and society is touching faith in things like the new religion of science and the cult of the professional and that sort of profoundly changed society as it becomes a less religious more secular society and one that is more and more inclined to have purely subjective which is ironic given the insistence on science purely subjective ideas about morality and the nature of society.

50:14

Okay we have another question from Wayne. How have vestments changed in the biblically faithful episcopal bodies?

50:25

I actually have a follow -up question of my own about that but if you could. Well basically for 300 years vestments in Anglicanism were limited to cassock, surplus, scarf or tippet is the same thing it has two names and your university hood and the use of the gown in the pulpit

50:47

I mean that was just the way we rolled. Then in cathedrals the cope was permitted and of course bishops retained their rostrum which is their old parliamentary and choir dress and as a result of that um you have great uniformity down to about 1860 and then they start playing around with things like eucharistic vestments and stoles and things like that as a manifestation of a return to a more catholic theology.

51:24

Now actually theologically speaking traditional Anglicanism was a lot closer to Lutheranism in its understanding of externals than it was to the reformed tradition.

51:39

We're not we're regulative principle but it's modified in the sense that it's more if scripture doesn't ban it it's permitted and it's a little the closest in terms of vesture and gesture to Anglicanism from the first couple of hundred years were the

52:02

Lutheran churches of southwestern Germany where reformed influence had caused them to get rid of eucharistic vestments but they hadn't ditched the old choir vestments that the ones that were worn for the daily offices and of course all that begins to change in the 19th century.

52:23

One of the big changes in the 20th century in a sense is whereas vestments tended to be very clearly party labels in the late 19th and the early 20th century today it's more a case of aesthetics and so you get churches which are on the biblically orthodox and conservative side which to all intents and purposes look high but in fact you know theologically if you scratch below the surface they are in line with the historic reformed understanding of Anglicanism which is all a little bit weird but the analogy

53:12

I would draw there is with Lutheranism where vestments have not really been a terribly good indicator of theology throughout their history.

53:26

Well I'm going to go now to our midway break and fortunately folks these breaks come up faster than we would like but that is the only way we remain on the air is through our advertisers and of course through our generous donors and benefactors so if you could be patient with us please as we have this longer than normal break it is because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

53:53

FM in Lake City Florida who airs this program in a pre -recorded format twice daily in morning drive 8 to 10 a .m.

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and the evening 8 to 10 p .m. they need to and according to FCC regulations air public service announcements and other things that localize

54:09

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to Lake City Florida. So please use this time wisely write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so you can more frequently and successfully patronize them so that they want to remain our advertisers because it's the only way we will remain on the air is through their funding and also send in questions to Bishop Peter D.

54:31

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01:10:36

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01:13:57

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01:14:37

and put I need a church yes put I need a church in the subject line. Forgive me for being distracted as I am trying to rectify this audio problem,

01:14:46

I think that I may have finally at least improved my audio, but that's also the email address to send in a question to Bishop Peter D.

01:14:58

Robinson. We are discussing the fall of the Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies.

01:15:05

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:15:11

and before the break we were going over some questions by a listener,

01:15:23

Wayne in Wildwood, Florida, a first -time listener, and I had my own question about vestments.

01:15:33

I had been told, and I was wondering if you could confirm this or if you have a different opinion on this,

01:15:38

I was told by a traditionalist Protestant 39 articles

01:15:46

Anglican churchman that the reason why

01:15:51

Roman Catholic priests wear the typical clerical collar that most folks are accustomed to seeing them wearing is because it became a phenomenon, especially

01:16:05

I think if I'm not mistaken in the 19th century, perhaps in the 18th, for Roman Catholic priests to actually imitate or borrow

01:16:16

Episcopal and Anglican churchmen by wearing the same collars that they did.

01:16:22

Now is that true? Not quite. The clerical collar as it's known today was actually invented by a

01:16:30

Presbyterian. Strange to relate. But the

01:16:35

Roman Catholics did borrow from Protestants on the clerical collars though then? Yeah, basically if you were somewhere like the

01:16:43

United Kingdom or the United States where the majority culture was

01:16:50

Protestant, it was expedient to blend into the background as much as possible.

01:16:58

So rather than wearing the Catholic and the soup plate hat that was pretty characteristic of Roman Catholic clerics in say

01:17:07

Spain or Italy, they would tend to wear a black suit and a clerical collar like the

01:17:17

Presbyterians and the Episcopalians. It was a case of blending into the background so they didn't get a lot of hostile attention.

01:17:27

Now one more question of my own on that issue. I have some acquaintances in the

01:17:34

Sydney, Australia diocese of the Anglican church, predominantly low church

01:17:42

Calvinists. I would be in much agreement with much of what they believe and teach and some of them at least have demonstrated opposition to clerical outfits at all.

01:18:00

Vestments and collars and so on. Now why is this such an important issue to Anglicans to maintain vestments and collars and that kind of thing?

01:18:12

A lot of it has to do with the fact that you are dealing with what

01:18:18

I would call the fitness of things. A minister is not in the final analysis a private individual.

01:18:26

He has a public duty to his congregation and to a certain extent it is helpful if ministers are identifiable by their garb.

01:18:37

And I think what we run into to a certain extent is those who want to reject vestments they start out with the historical premise that Christian ministers in the early days didn't wear distinctive dress.

01:18:56

Well of course they didn't, they were under persecution. And then they sort of elevated into an overarching principle.

01:19:05

Certainly from the time in at which Christianity became a public religion as opposed to a semi -private persecuted one.

01:19:16

There have been ways of recognizing Christian clergy as being Christian clergy.

01:19:22

The Eucharistic vestments of the church are basically stylized versions of late classical middle class dress.

01:19:34

And what gets forgotten is that certain things like the stole, you know the long strip of colored cloth was originally actually a badge of dignity that was given to the clergy.

01:19:50

It originally belonged to Roman judges that was given to the clergy in the fourth century as Christianity became increasingly the religion of the empire.

01:20:00

So the relationship between vestments and Christianity is a lot more complicated than is often assumed.

01:20:08

The other thing that can be an interesting line of biblical exegesis is what is the relationship between the temple and Christian worship.

01:20:20

There's a tendency to oversimplify and say that you know the church is descended from the synagogue and to do away anything that smacks of the temple.

01:20:33

But you know even post -reformation Anglicanism had a fascination with the temple as a model for churches.

01:20:45

So for instance in the work of Nicholas Hawksbore who designed some new churches for London at the beginning of the 18th century, you find the proportions of Solomon's temple become influential in the proportions of the churches.

01:21:00

So as far as Anglican liturgics and architecture are concerned, we have people who would argue very strongly against that minimalist utilitarian streak.

01:21:20

And also I think you actually find that in the broader reformed world. There are reformed churches that are quite formal.

01:21:27

And by the way that is in contrast, I believe I know what you're speaking of. You're speaking of the warehouse appearance that many megachurches have as opposed to the simplicity of the historic low church

01:21:43

Anglicans. Right. Where there were no statues and no fancy candlesticks and altars and so on.

01:21:53

You're not talking about that. You're speaking of the warehouse appearance. Yeah and everything being on wheels so it can be rolled out of the way so the band's got more room and things like that.

01:22:08

There's a sort of element there of the fitness of things. If you'd have gone into an 18th century

01:22:14

Anglican church very often in England they were divided into two rooms. The root screen was retained.

01:22:22

The loft which would contain the crucifix and the figures of St. Mary and St. John would have been taken down in the 1560s.

01:22:30

And if Cromwell's men hadn't got to the root screen the chancel would have been used for communion and furnished accordingly with a communion table up against the east wall covered decently with a so -called velvet altar cloth.

01:22:52

There would have been communion rails around it. Probably two candlesticks that were never light lit and an arms basin placed on the communion table.

01:23:02

And then there would have been seats for the communicants around it. And then the nave, the main body of the church, would have been used separately for morning and evening prayer and would have focused on what is affectionately known as the three -decker pulpit which consists of a seat for the clerk who was roughly equivalent to the presenter in the

01:23:22

Presbyterian tradition. And then the middle level was for the minister to read the sermon and then the top level was the pulpit from which he preached.

01:23:31

And the churches were used as two rooms, each specifically fitted up for its designated function, the chancel for communion, the nave for morning and evening prayer and the litany.

01:23:47

English churches were not there after the Reformation. Very often they had sentences of scripture written up on the wall with decorated borders around them.

01:23:58

J .C. Ryle, one of J .C. Ryle's two churches in Suffolk, I think it's Helmingham, still has his mid -19th century scheme of scriptures written up on the walls and it's quite decorative.

01:24:12

But what disappeared was the emphasis on the saints.

01:24:19

The statuary, the graven images disappeared, but it didn't mean the churches were, you know, sort of all bare nails and whitewash.

01:24:30

But what was felt to be contrary to the Ten Commandments was taken away.

01:24:40

That's interesting that you said that, because my friend who I mentioned the last time you were on, my dear friend,

01:24:49

Reverend Jacob Smith of the parish of Calvary St.

01:24:55

George's in Manhattan, a low church, Reformed Calvinistic 39

01:25:01

Articles Episcopal Church. He was lamenting during my tour of the

01:25:08

St. George's building in contrast with the

01:25:15

Calvary building. They are two different facilities and one happens to be a higher church appearance and more ornate, even though the worship is still today low church.

01:25:26

The St. George's parish was Stephen Ting's design of being very simple and low church.

01:25:32

But he said that, I believe it was in the 1970s, the rector there, who was an apostate and liberal, tore down the original

01:25:41

Ten Commandments banner that Ting had on the wall there behind the pulpit.

01:25:49

Yeah, well, the Ten Commandments were commanded by the royal injunctions of 15—sorry, the archbishop's injunctions of 1565.

01:26:00

They were a standard piece of kit in Anglican churches up until the middle of the 19th century.

01:26:07

And usually what you found on the east walls of churches, usually the east wall of the chancel, although other arrangements were possible, were four boards, one containing the first table of the law, which is

01:26:23

Commandments 1 through 4, the second table of the law in the middle, and then on either side, the

01:26:31

Lord's Prayer and the Creed. The Lord's Prayer and the Creed because they appear in every

01:26:38

Anglican service, and the Ten Commandments because they are the basis of Christian discipline.

01:26:47

And that was just an accepted part of the furniture. My home parish in Lincolnshire, it was more in the old

01:26:57

Protestant high church tradition when it had its first restoration in the 19th century, and they renewed the commandment boards at that time, making them part of the reridos behind the altar.

01:27:15

So, you know, it was ingrained in Anglicanism to have the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the

01:27:20

Lord's Prayer up in some prominent position in the church. Wayne, who is our listener who has written these three questions, added a fourth, and the reason

01:27:34

I'm going to mention it is that it is of great benefit to my sponsor,

01:27:40

Solid Ground Christian Books. He asked, what was the name of that used bookstore that I mentioned earlier?

01:27:47

Number one, it's not a used bookstore. It's a publisher that happens to be headquartered in Port St.

01:27:54

Lucie, Florida, but it is a publisher that has brought back into print centuries -old

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Reformed literature, including literature by Anglicans and Episcopalians, and also at least one contemporary author that I know of who is a

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Protestant Calvinist Anglican, but it's Solid Ground Christian Books, and of course it's not just exclusively

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Anglican. They have brought back into print and published contemporary works by Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists and other confessionally

01:28:36

Reformed evangelicals. That website, Wayne, is solid -ground -books .com

01:28:43

solid -ground -books .com. And Wayne's final question is, it appears that the recent

01:28:49

Supreme Court nominee is going to be attacked because of her Catholic dogma.

01:28:56

Why should this concern biblical faithful Christians? And obviously the

01:29:03

Catholic teachings that she's being attacked for are not transubstantiation or the primacy of the papacy.

01:29:13

It is her views against abortion and same -sex marriage and other things.

01:29:19

That's really what she's being attacked for. But if you could answer Wayne's question on that, why should

01:29:25

Protestant Anglicans, 39 Articles Churchmen, why should they be concerned about this

01:29:32

Roman Catholic appointee or nominee for the Supreme Court? To be quite honest,

01:29:40

I'm not concerned about her being appointed. I'm more concerned about her not being appointed.

01:29:47

Because from my point of view, that is a signal that, or a further signal, that the political elite in this country has declared war on Christianity.

01:30:00

And it's an implicit statement that anyone who professes

01:30:06

Orthodox Christian morality is no longer welcome in the political and judicial sphere in this country.

01:30:15

And that, in a very real sense, is a repudiation of what the

01:30:24

American experiment was all about. I mean, to be quite honest, the

01:30:31

Anglicans came to Virginia to make money. But, you know, the Puritan influence a little later on in Massachusetts was about creating the godly

01:30:40

Commonwealth. So even in those colonies where pre -profession of religion was a integral part of their heritage, for instance

01:30:52

Pennsylvania and Rhode Island, nonetheless the whole thing was undergirded by a common morality.

01:31:00

And the problem with secularization in America is it creates an ideological vacuum into which they want to intrude the state.

01:31:16

And if you say that Christians are no longer fit to hold office in government or in the judiciary, you are creating a very lopsided presentation of the cultural heritage of this country.

01:31:36

The other thing is that, you know, if you look back in judicial tradition, the first commentator on English common law,

01:31:45

Blackstone, back in the 18th century, I mean, he was quite firm that abortion was murder.

01:31:52

And that was under the common law of England. I mean, the only distinction he made was during the first 13 weeks it was manslaughter, and then after that it was full -blown premeditated murder.

01:32:03

So, you know, when they're making a legal argument in favor of abortion, it's often very lopsided and not altogether fully in accord with the common law traditions that are common to both the

01:32:16

United States and the United Kingdom. I'll just throw that one out as something to get people wound up.

01:32:26

But when it boils down to it, though, the reason why Bible -believing evangelicals, even those who theologically oppose, vehemently oppose and vociferously oppose

01:32:40

Roman dogma regarding the gospel and the

01:32:45

Council of Trent, is because what this nominee believes in that has anything to do with her duties as a

01:32:53

Supreme Court justice are issues that are shared by Bible -believing

01:32:59

Christians. Right. I mean, there's a moral uniformity. I mean, there are a few little differences.

01:33:06

There's a moral uniformity between conservative and evangelical

01:33:11

Protestants and Roman Catholics. And we shouldn't let our doctrinal disagreements blind us to that.

01:33:23

Right. And as I've said, as far as I'm concerned also, on the flip side of the coin, although I believe to a certain extent in co -belligerism,

01:33:33

I believe in working in the public square side by side with those who do not believe in the biblical gospel, who share the same moral and social beliefs,

01:33:44

I do not believe in what is called modern ecumenism, where during religious and spiritual events and organizations, you have people who believe in the gospel, linking arms with those who reject it, and are both presenting themselves as a united body of Christ.

01:34:10

I am very opposed to that latter idea that blurs the importance of the gospel.

01:34:18

And by the way, thank you very much, Wayne, and keep listening to Iron Sherpa's Zarn Radio.

01:34:24

And by the way, all of our first -time listeners or first -time questioners who submitted questions today, you're getting a free

01:34:33

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB who are major sponsors of this program.

01:34:40

So if you would like one of these free NASB Bibles, give me your full mailing address.

01:34:47

We have Robert in Waynesboro, Virginia, who says, given the

01:34:53

American Christian Protestant and even revivalism, to what extent do the

01:34:58

Anglo -Catholics help or hinder Anglican evangelism and discipleship that would build up the size of congregations?

01:35:13

And another question I would like to add to that is that, should that be necessarily a major concern about building the size, especially at the expense of teaching?

01:35:25

Anglo -Catholicism is kind of a thing off on its own. And to what degree people's perception of Anglicanism as a whole is covered by Anglo -Catholicism depends on where you are in the country.

01:35:41

Anglo -Catholicism's homeland really is Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, and then around Chicago.

01:35:52

And then elsewhere in the country, the old Episcopal Church tends to be rather middle of the road.

01:36:00

So, you know, a lot of people have heard of Anglo -Catholicism, but have never actually experienced it.

01:36:06

I think what is actually more difficult for Anglicanism is people do have to make a very definite translation between, and it's not just Anglicanism, it also applies to other confessional

01:36:26

Reformed and Lutheran groups. There's a very different atmosphere between American Revivalism and the old confessional

01:36:37

Protestant groups. And it comes about because of this emphasis on the confession as opposed to Emotionalism and a somewhat, forgive me for saying this, a somewhat simplistic

01:36:54

Biblicism. And actually, in a funny sort of a way,

01:37:00

Anglo -Catholicism and Revivalism, with their emphasis on emotion, not doctrine, actually have a lot in common.

01:37:09

They're just the opposite poles of the same phenomenon. And it's part of the 19th century shift from religion, particularly

01:37:22

Christianity, being very largely a matter of belief and social -religious structure, to it being a consumer product.

01:37:37

In early America, your religion shaped a great deal of your political and social beliefs.

01:37:48

And it was something that was central to who you were as an individual. In the 19th century, it shifts to the point where very often religion becomes something that is a private issue, something that you find emotionally satisfying.

01:38:03

And it's really a move from a objective to a subjective relationship with religion.

01:38:15

So one of the things I think people have to be ready for if they move into a confessional church is you are moving into an environment where the

01:38:26

Bible and the Confession forms what is believed, rather than the subjective individual experience of the believer.

01:38:37

Now that's difficult for a lot of people. I didn't answer the question there, did

01:38:43

I? I think you just did fine.

01:38:50

And we have to go to our final break right now. It's going to be much more brief than the last two. If you intend to join us with a question of your own, please send in your question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:39:01

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away.

01:39:07

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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01:51:27

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final segment of today's interview with Bishop Peter D.

01:51:34

Robinson of the United Episcopal Church of North America. We have been discussing the fall of the

01:51:41

Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies, and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:51:49

If you have a question you'd like to ask before we run out of time, we have Richard in Lawrence, Kansas.

01:51:56

Regarding the slide of Anglicanism into liberalism, what do you see as the series of causes that precipitated that?

01:52:05

Obviously, that was what we've been discussing, especially in part one that was last week, your interview that was last week, but I know that you had said during that interview the primary cause, in your opinion, was a lightening of the seriousness of confessionalism, in this case the 39 articles, which were lowered in their significance, if not altogether abandoned.

01:52:33

Yeah, I mean, it's partly the decline of confessionalism which goes hand in hand with the creeping acceptance of hierarchicism of the

01:52:42

Bible, and that chips away both at the biblical basis of the

01:52:47

Church and the confessional basis of the Church, making it a safe place for theological liberals to live in.

01:52:56

Well, thank you, Richard, in Kansas, and I remind all of our first -time questioners,

01:53:02

I don't think Richard was a first -time questioner, but anybody who was a first -time questioner, you're going to get a free

01:53:08

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01:53:22

We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says, where do you place the charismatic

01:53:30

Episcopal Church in the fall category or the rise of biblically faithful Episcopalian category, or a bit of both?

01:53:40

That's interesting that he asked that. I have friends and acquaintances in the charismatic

01:53:46

Episcopal Church, some who seem very sound, other than our differences, our major differences on the charismatic gifts,

01:53:54

I am a cessationist myself, but I also have encountered very Romish Oxford movement folks in the charismatic

01:54:02

Episcopal Church who I remember having years ago an online argument with one of them because he believed in prayer to Mary and the saints.

01:54:12

I don't know how common that is amongst charismatic Episcopalians, but if you could comment. Um, I think my feeling about them is, yeah, they're a little bit of both, really.

01:54:26

The charismatic movement is an awkward fit into the confessional movement, mainly because of its emphasis upon spiritual experience.

01:54:42

And the tendency of the charismatic movement when it comes into Anglicanism is you go from, and of course this image is a little bit wrong, but we often talk about the three -legged stool, it really should be a tricycle.

01:54:56

The three -legged stool are a scripture, tradition, and a reason. And of course, the joke being that three -legged stools tend to not wobble on uneven surfaces.

01:55:09

And when you get the fourth leg with the charismatic movement, um, you get a wobbly chair.

01:55:16

And the reason it's a wobbly chair is because occasionally with the charismatic movement, uh, spiritual experience can trump tradition, scripture, and reason.

01:55:29

So one of the phenomena in England has been the charismatics have come around very quickly to the ordination of women, because they regard it as part of the ongoing revelation of the

01:55:43

Holy Spirit to the Church. That's interesting, because I know at least one, uh, charismatic

01:55:51

Episcopalian priest who has actually returned to the

01:55:57

Pentecostal denomination he originally came from, uh, Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee, who is very, very opposed to the ordination of women.

01:56:07

And he said that it largely had to do with the ministers presiding over the

01:56:14

Eucharist, and according to him, that was impossible for, uh, a female, uh, in the

01:56:23

Church to lead and be involved in that, that, uh, that ordinance or sacrament of the

01:56:31

Church. But anyway, um, it's interesting that you say that. Yeah, I mean, the charismatic movement is a little bit of an odd fit in Anglicanism.

01:56:40

Uh, one of the things that ACNA has a problem with, um, is the way in which the differing elements, the

01:56:48

Anglo -Catholic, uh, the traditionally Protestant, and the charismatic elements within the

01:56:54

ACNA, uh, relate to one another. And that is something that, you know, the charismatic movement in Anglicanism hasn't yet got enough history for us to work out what the bugs are with that particular approach to Christianity, and how it references to the

01:57:16

Anglican tradition. Well, we are, uh, out of time. Uh, actually,

01:57:22

I'm sorry, I would like you to have a minute of uninterrupted time, at least, uh, a minute, perhaps a minute and a half, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to the fall of the

01:57:35

Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically faithful Episcopal bodies. The fall of the

01:57:40

Episcopal Church was called by two things. The abandonment of the authority of Scripture, and the abandonment of the

01:57:47

Confessions. And the rise of the biblically

01:57:52

Orthodox Anglican bodies that have come into being in the last 50 years is very largely an attempt, hopefully blessed by God, uh, to return to a proper scriptural and confessional understanding of Anglicanism.

01:58:10

And it is our hope and our prayer that as time passes, more and more people will come to understand

01:58:17

Anglicanism, not through the prism of the liberal Episcopal Church, all through the

01:58:24

Anglo -Catholic tradition, but Anglicanism as part of the broader reformed

01:58:32

Christian landscape. Well, Bishop, uh,

01:58:38

Robinson, I want to thank you so much. I know that if you are willing, I would love to have you back as a frequently returning guest.

01:58:46

You have been utterly fascinating to me and edifying, and I want to make sure that our listeners have the website for the

01:58:55

United Episcopal Church of North America, unitedepiscopal .org, unitedepiscopal .org,

01:59:03

and I'm also going to repeat the website for Solid Ground Christian Books, since they do carry quite a bit of historic

01:59:11

Anglican literature that they have brought back into print, and even some contemporary things, uh, solid -ground -books .com,

01:59:18

solid -ground -books .com. And, uh, I want to thank everybody who listened to today's program, especially those who took the time to send in questions.

01:59:28

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater