August 12, 2024 Show with Zach Garris on “Honor Thy Fathers: Recovering the Anti-Feminist Theology of the Reformers”

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at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Well, I'm absolutely thrilled to have a first -time guest today.

His name is Zachary Garris, and he's pastor of Bryce Avenue Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation within the

Presbyterian Church in America denomination, also known as the PCA, and that is located in White Rock, New Mexico, and we're going to be addressing his new book,

Honor Thy Fathers, Recovering the Anti -Feminist Theology of the

Reformers. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio, Pastor Zachary Garris.

It's my honor to be here, Chris. Well, first of all, why don't you let our listeners know about Bryce Avenue Presbyterian Church there in White Rock, New Mexico.

Yeah, we're a small church in the PCA, northern New Mexico, so White Rock is right outside of Los Alamos.

Most people know that for the nuclear lab that's here. But yeah, we were planted 1975, so I mean, the people here are great.

I love them, and I'm happy to minister here. How long have you been there?

That certainly could not have been 1975. That is correct. I've only been here three years.

Oh, wow. Okay. And you are, I'm assuming, one of the more conservative -leaning congregations within the

PCA. I know many very solid pastors and members of PCA churches all over the

United States, but obviously, as you know, there is more of a spectrum of positions within that denomination than any of us might care to know.

But would that be the case with Bryce Avenue Presbyterian Church? Yeah, that's correct.

Our church is fairly conservative and traditional. As you mentioned, the

PCA is pretty diverse theologically. But actually, just a brief note, our church was, it was essentially a split from a local congregation that was part of the

Northern Presbyterian Church back, that was before the PCUSA merger in 1983.

So our church was essentially formed, you know, as a conservative response to liberalism.

Great. Well, if anybody wants more information about Bryce Avenue Presbyterian Church in White Rock, New Mexico, go to BrycePresbyterian .org,

and that's spelled B -R -Y -C -E, Presbyterian .org. And God willing, we'll be repeating that later on in the program.

Well, we have a tradition on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, whenever we have a first -time guest, that guest will provide for our listeners a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them. And we would love to hear your story.

Yeah, absolutely. I actually grew up attending a Greek Orthodox church with my grandparents.

Wow. Yeah, my parents didn't really attend much, except for holidays.

My grandparents went fairly regularly. And so that's what

I grew up going to most Sundays. And then I actually got involved early teens.

I was even an altar boy, which is interesting. So was

I, but in the Roman Catholic Church. Yeah, there you go. So, you know, the

Lord was working on me at quite a young age, where I was just interested in religion, just had questions about God and the

Bible and the world. And I wasn't really getting a lot of answers in my

Orthodox church. And in the Lord's Providence, a friend from school, and I was in a public school, he went to a free

Methodist church and invited me there.

Actually, first, I was at his house one day, and I had tried reading my mother's

King James Bible. I didn't get very far in it, of course. But my friend gave me a

New Living Translation version, which is, you know, I'm not a huge fan of now, but it was useful at the time.

And I started reading in the Gospels because it was just a New Testament and it shared the

Gospel at the beginning about Christ's death and resurrection. And so reading through that,

I mean, it just was it was new to me. I didn't have much knowledge of Christ and his teachings.

And just at some point while reading through the Bible and then eventually attending the Protestant church with my friend,

I would say I came to faith. And, you know, eventually in college,

I wandered my way into the Reformed tradition and eventually into the PCA. And I'm assuming that is where you discovered

Calvinism. Any particular figures from church history or even contemporary figures whose writings you read or even folks you may have seen on television or heard on radio that were primary and you're coming to learn about the

Reformed faith and even come to embrace it and fall in love with it and declare it? Yeah, as as many people around my age,

I was in college, let's see, 2004 to 2008, and I saw some friends, somebody introduced me to John Piper.

And so I was on his website, Desiring God. And then Piper had R .C.

Sproul at a conference once. And I remember watching Sproul give some message.

I don't remember which one. And then I got into Sproul's ministry and Ligonier.

And, yeah, I would say both of those guys, but eventually more so Sproul was very influential on my thinking.

And then from there, I eventually dug into more, I think, even older writings. Great. And what made you realize that God had placed the call upon your life to enter into pastoral ministry?

Yeah, you know, I think I was always interested in doing ministry, even in college, was involved with Campus Crusade for Christ.

What's now called Cru. And, you know, I was doing Bible studies and the like.

And then I did a church internship after college before I went to seminary. So I think

I just kind of always just had the desire to teach the scriptures and preach.

And, you know, that that desire never went away. I didn't go into pastoral ministry right away.

But over time, you know, the Lord led me into external call.

So at a church here. So great. Well, I am praising the Lord that you did answer that call.

And I'm now another church pastor of another church that I can recommend to our listeners.

We get contacted every week by people all over the world looking for biblically faithful churches.

And I'm glad I could add Bryce Avenue to that list. Well, we are here to discuss this very important topic, the topic of your book.

Honor Thy Father is Recovering the Anti -Feminist Theology of the Reformers.

And this book, I already know, was not written to just be an addition to an echo chamber or to be another voice preaching to the choir, just trying to to gain the accolades of people that already agree with you.

But feminism has become so pervasive in society in the 21st century that many people might not even realize how much they have personally succumbed to feminist ideologies.

They may not even realize how much their church has been infiltrated by feminism and so on.

And I'm talking about even within those that are professedly conservative believers and churches and entities.

But why don't you even start with a definition of feminism, first of all? Yeah, I think we're all influenced by feminism just in the culture we live in.

And so we're not even always aware of it. So my definition is essentially that feminism pushes for the flattening of the sexes.

So it opposes male headship in the home, but also other spheres such as the church, which would be male only pastors and elders.

But I would also add to that, I think tied with that is it feminist ideology tends to push women outside of the home and away from motherhood.

And that's really been part of the tactic. And and once you do that,

I mean, it causes all sorts of problems, including people having fewer children and just being less focused on the family unit and men or women in the women essentially acting like men as far as taking on the same duties, providing for the family and the like.

So so that's maybe how it summarizes the flattening of the sexes and pushing women outside of the home.

Now, the reformers, which is which is an era of the 16th century.

And of course, there were those that we consider a part of our heritage that came after that.

But when you're talking about men that long ago, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others,

Knox writing about or should I say against feminism, what were they reacting to?

Because typically people who are writing polemically, no matter what age they live in, they are typically writing in response to something that is surrounding them or something that is in danger of infiltrating their space.

And as far as what I understand, the feminism that has dominated much of evangelicalism today, let alone, obviously, the apostate leftist church.

But that kind of feminism, that extent of feminism did not even exist in the church, to my knowledge, although it did.

Exist in the sphere of government and not necessarily that feminism was an understood precept concept amongst everything that happened in the realm of government.

But you did have queens, for instance, and princesses that had power.

So why were the reformers alarmed about feminism, even if they didn't use the term or the word?

And what specifically were they responding to? Yeah, the reformers definitely were writing before the modern feminist movement.

I think in one sense, they weren't responding to what we have today.

They were expositing the scriptures. So there's plenty of passages in the

Bible. Especially the New Testament, speaking to male headship in the home, Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, and then also in the church, 1

Timothy 2. And I would even add in there, the end of 1 Corinthians 14. But maybe the more prominent issue in their day related to men and women or female leadership would have been queens, which you kind of mentioned there.

John Knox wrote his first trumpet blast against the monstrous regiment of women. And I mentioned that here in the third chapter.

A fairly controversial short book that he wrote. He actually wrote it originally anonymously during the reign of Bloody Mary.

But she dies four years later. And then Elizabeth comes in, who's a

Protestant. And she was not too happy with Knox or Geneva as a whole, where Calvin was.

It was published there. And so, I mean, that was the issue. But Calvin didn't think that it should be ordinary that women would be queens or rulers over nations.

But he just politically thought it was a bad move on Knox's part. But so that was kind of the most controversial issue related to feminism of their day.

It wasn't so much in the home or in the church. But obviously, this is something that is innately connected to the curse that occurred in the

Garden of Eden. Can you exegete Genesis 3 .16?

What does it mean when Eve is told, thy desire shall be to thy husband?

Yeah, so that's actually a pretty difficult verse there, I think. There's some different views on it.

I argued, so the book I wrote before this is Masculine Christianity. And essentially,

I walked through the different views. And I'd land somewhere close to Calvin's view of that verse.

I essentially argue that it means though the woman's desire or maybe even devotion to her husband, her husband will rule over her.

That's kind of how I understand the context is it's within the judgment upon well,

Adam and then Eve. So the men in general and then women is that there's going to be this abuse of male rule.

I don't think some people try to argue that male rule was introduced as part of the fall. I don't think that's what it's saying.

I think you have male leadership and male rule in Genesis 2. Adam is the head of his wife.

And of course, Adam miserably failed that role. Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, he's he's standing next to his wife while she's eating of the forbidden fruit and says he was with her.

So, yeah, Adam failed to exercise godly leadership. But then I think as a result of the fall, men contend towards abusing authority.

And so what we need is a godly authority, godly male rule, not abusive. And then, of course, you also need women to follow in a godly spirit.

And as we've already indicated, the the problem with feminism is sometimes it can be like a frog being boiled in a kettle and it's just simmering around him.

Originally, it's the same body temperature and he doesn't feel anything. But after a while, it begins to murder him because he doesn't even realize that he's being boiled alive.

And you have something like that happening in the body of Christ. First of all, do you have any historical data that you believe is a timeline when of feminism began to really be a considerable factor in the church?

Because I know that even years before, decades before the feminist revolution of the 1960s, you had

John Wesley ordaining a woman to the pastor.

And you had the Wesleyans and the Wesleyan holiness movement, even to this day, that are in every other respect conservative and will even very often believe in male headship in their homes.

But they believe in the ordination of women. But what is your understanding of how this began to be a problem in the church?

I think that feminism became a big problem in the West, especially in America in the mid -19th century.

I mean, Wesley would have been before that. So it's not that there was nothing there before, but you really have the push for women's suffrage and leading up to the 19th

Amendment. That obviously can upset people when we bring up this subject.

But I think the issue at hand was the fact that when you think of voting before, where it was limited to men, the men had a household representation, right?

They were voting in the interest of their family, not just themselves as an individual. And so some of those older writers were arguing against the push for women's suffrage because they thought it would logically lead to the undermining of the family unit.

And so I think there is some logical connection there between what there we could call first wave feminism and then the later second wave feminism of the 1960s and 70s.

But as far as the church goes, I mean, yeah, it was there in the 19th century.

But I mean, you had some women who were ordained in certain churches.

But I think the push really came, I mean, you had the

Quakers, but they were always egalitarian. They're kind of odd, though, in a variety of ways. But really, in more mainstream

Christianity, I think it's more in the mid -20th century. And that definitely was a factor.

I can at least speak of the Presbyterian churches, you had the Northern and Southern churches. That was definitely a factor in some of the splits there tied with theological liberalism, as churches were starting to ordain women as elders and then pastors.

I mean, we make a distinction in some of the Presbyterian churches. And so that wasn't the only issue.

Obviously, you had other things like inerrancy of scripture and the like. But yeah, so that's my understanding is

I think the roots were there earlier, but where this really blew up in the church was in the mid -20th century.

Well, we're going to go to our first commercial break. If you have a question for my guest,

Zach Garris, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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We are now back with Zachary Garris and we are discussing his book, Honor Thy Fathers, Recovering the

Anti -Feminist Theology of the Reformers, and our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

if you have a question. Going back to the compelling factors of why you believe this book needed to be put in print, was there anything going on in your life as a pastor that was pushing you to the point where you said, you know, there are things in print already, there are volumes available that prove male headship in the church and in the home, but I need to add another volume to this, to the libraries of my brothers and sisters and to add fuel to the side of male headship in the conversation.

So what were some of those factors, if any? Yeah, I think nothing particularly in my local church here, but maybe the church more broadly.

I mean there's been a lot of works of course on male headship, although I would note I think the majority of books that have come out in recent years are actually egalitarian, so that there's a lot of books that attack male headship and even many bible commentaries unfortunately that are coming out are replacing, you know, they're getting egalitarian scholars.

So I mean when you have passages like in the book of Ephesians or Colossians or First Timothy, those are important and it's not good that there's all of these egalitarian commentaries being written.

But one thing this book seeks to add to the conversation is the background of the reformers and I think we could say the post -reformation reformed orthodox, that would be those who came a little after the reformers.

So basically reformed theologians of the 16th and 17th centuries and a lot of these conversations today,

I would say a lot of the literature that's been written from what would be termed the complementarian point of view did not engage much with these men and I have my reasons for thinking that's the case.

I think there have been some, I mean I have a chapter in here called complementarian deviation, so I think there's been some move away by even those who would affirm male headship today in the church, some move away from some of the earlier views, maybe even exactly what they meant by male headship is not just a tie -breaking vote but actually that the man is supposed to lead and exercise authority in the home.

And I think it's good for us to go back and read these older writers.

There's been, you know, kind of a movement for what we could call resourcement, like there's more access today going back to older theologians, there's more translations coming out from Latin and Dutch and all of that's great, but those tend to be on maybe less controversial issues, maybe even less practical issues, and I mean what's more relevant than male headship in the home and in the church and in life?

I mean this is, I think these are really important writings by men like John Calvin or William Gouge, William Perkins, and it's not just male headship, it's on the family in general, marriage and the family, all very relevant and important things, but we just don't really read them.

And so we read the Puritans on other issues, spirituality, but why not male headship?

And so that's really what I try to do, is I just try to put, at least the first half of this book is trying to bring together quotes and sources from all these men,

I mean it's not exhaustive, but at least some summary fashion to help modern

Christians understand and read these guys. Yeah, I think that that is always wise, not that we believe that the writings of men outside of the authors of God -breathed scripture, we don't believe that they are in anywhere near the place of equal authority as the

Bible, and we do believe in sola scriptura, but sometimes sola scriptura is caricatured by both its enemies and its professed adherents, because we are to make use of the minds of godly men, and if we don't,

I think it's a sign of great arrogance. I don't need to hear what teachers of the past or even present have to say,

I've got my Bible, I can just open it up, and I can read it, and I don't need anybody else.

That is really a sign of troubling, sinful pride and arrogance. But why don't you, if you could, share some of these quotes in the book that you want to highlight that are perhaps those that you believe are most important among them.

Sure, I can do that. I think I have some good quotes in here by, well, a number of guys.

Maybe we'll mention William Perkins. So the first chapter has a lot on what's the reformed on male rule in the home, that's the title of the chapter.

So William Perkins was an English pastor, theologian. He wrote, this book was called

Christian Economy, so like the household economy. Perkins died in 1602. So he says that Christian economy is a doctrine of the right ordering of the family, and then he goes on to say the only rule of ordering the family is the written word of God.

I mean, in some sense that's obvious, but the problem is we have to know follow that today.

And so I think it's great here. He even speaks, they just speak very plainly.

I think that's one thing is they're affirming, a lot of these writings, they're just expositing scripture, but they're doing it before feminism.

And so I think there's not cultural pressure for them to water it down in their application. And so he'll just affirm things here.

The husband's duty, he says, is to love his wife as himself, protecting her from danger, regarding her estate as his own, and providing maintenance for her both for his lifetime, for time to come after his death.

And then it says that the, let me see here, for the wife, Perkins wrote that the wife is subject to her husband, and she yields obedience unto him.

I mean, I would just say even that kind of language, I think that reflects what like the apostle Paul teaches, but modern day

Christians, we often don't want to speak that plainly. And so for example, he says that the wife's duties are principally two, the first being to submit herself to her husband, to acknowledge and reverence him as her head in all things.

And then the second is to be obedient unto her husband in all things that is holy to upon him both in judgment and will.

And then they would even call out contrary sins. So he says, contrary to these duties are the sins of wives to be proud, to be unwilling, to bear the authority of their husbands, to chide and brawl with bitterness, to forsake their houses, et cetera.

So that's just a good example of his exposition application in the home.

I like William Gouge a lot. He was a Westminster assembly member, and he wrote a book in 1622 called

Domestical Duties. And again, I think there's some in there would be offensive to modern ears, but just because he speaks very directly in his exposition application of Scripture.

And so he even speaks of the husband being the king in his own house, and he would use this language.

He says, the husband, quote, by virtue of his superiority and authority has power to command his wife so that the many things must she do against her own will if her husband require her.

So he's actually taking a view that the husband exercises authority. But of course, he's going to go on to say, you know, that he shouldn't be abusive or selfish and such.

Let's see. So seeing what else to maybe mention here. Well, while you're looking,

I'll just repeat our yeah, I'll repeat our email address. If anybody would like to join the conversation, our email address again is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA. So I think this is interesting is

Gouge even provides proofs that the for the husband's authority. So he even appeals to nature.

So, I mean, this is very common, I think, is that the the reform older reform writers would they're, of course, expositing

Scripture, but they also look to natural law. So he says nature has placed an eminence in the male over the female.

So is where they are linked together in one yoke. It is given by nature that he should govern, she obey. This did the heathen by light of nature observed.

So he's saying even I mean, he's trying to explain this is why all cultures outside of, I guess we could say some modern

Western cultures. But and there's some exceptions, I would think. But by and large, even pagan cultures have had male rule.

It's just it's just natural. It's the way God has designed things. And so, of course, we have Scripture, but we also have natural revelation where we can discern discern these things.

And actually, I'll add here, I think that's an important point. And it comes out at some points throughout the book. There's a number of issues that we would address today, and maybe we debate even in the church.

And it helps very much so to bring in the light of nature. For example, for example, if we're talking about women in combat and there's not a lot of direct versus, you know, saying a woman shall not fight in combat.

I mean, you have some things related maybe to a woman's apparel in Deuteronomy 22, five,

I think. And you have, you know, the soldiers in the Old Testament in Israel were men.

But they're going to appeal more broadly to virtues and just a broader application of the man's duties to protect women.

Yeah, and a variety of things, just including nature to argue that, you know, women shouldn't be combat soldiers.

And I mean, that was even something that was debated by the OPC in 2001, and there was a pretty strong minority report arguing that Scripture didn't, you know, didn't really speak to the issue.

So I just mentioned Peter 3, 7 refers to the woman as the weaker vessel. So even that in and of itself is a strong,

I think, bolster to the argument against women being in combat. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think when you bring in the, you know, totality of Scripture and nature that they would definitely include in that verse you mentioned.

Well, so I think this is maybe one thing I would note for listeners here is, there's a tendency today amongst modern interpreters and those applying

Scripture, especially on controversial matters like this, is they want to take the narrowest possible application.

And that's not how our spiritual forefathers interpret and applied

Scripture. They made much more broad deductions and applications.

And so, I mean, that would come up with something like women in combat, but I think you could also say like things in church where there's a lot of so -called complementarians today that'll say, well, only men can be pastors or elders, but they might let women get up front and still lead other things like lead prayers or read

Scripture, or sometimes even some of these so -called complementarians will even allow women to preach.

And they'll say, well, I'm a complementarian because I don't think a woman can be a pastor. And I think that's an example of this very narrow reasoning.

And certainly the older Reform guys did not come to those narrow conclusions.

Yeah, when that happens, when I have confronted people who allow women to preach even though they claim women can't be pastors or elders and they proclaim male headship, they're usually saying that, well, a woman can preach and teach.

She can't usurp the authority of the male pastor.

In other words, in some way, by some kind of stealth move or by direct conflict in the church where she rallies enough support to overthrow the pastor or something, they're usually trying to make it acceptable by twisting the language.

Do you find that to be the case yourself? Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

I'm just bringing up the passage here, 1 Timothy 2. Paul actually starts in verse 11.

He says, a woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. So you're getting the context right there.

The prohibition follows, but it's a very broad command, right? She must be quiet and be submissive.

And then he follows up in verse 12 and says, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

So there's nothing in there about the elders. It's a prohibition on women teaching.

So that's actually more broad than preaching. So women are not to teach or exercise authority over a man.

I know some try to argue that's just a husband, but that doesn't fit the context. It's definitely a prohibition on an entire class of people in the church, which is women, that does not apply to men in the church.

Yeah. And of course, in 1 Timothy 2, we also have an explanation as to why

Paul does not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, is that in 13, verse 13, for Adam was formed first, then

Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

And so he's giving a reason that dates back to the creation.

And yet, it has been very frustrating in my conversations with brothers and sisters who are otherwise just wonderful people, who

I enjoy conversing with, sharing a meal with, and so on.

And I'll give you an example. I have enjoyed interviewing a couple of folks, one from the

New Global Methodist Church, which came into being as a direct result of United Methodists rightfully protesting against the

United Methodist Church doing nothing to discipline people who are violating the rule against ordaining homosexuals.

And now it's become, I believe, a full -blown acceptance of that in the

United Methodist Church. But they rightly protested that and departed from the

United Methodist Church. And I said to this brother that I interviewed, who is a key figure in this new denomination,

I said, the fact that you ordain women, however, is to me an obvious ticking time bomb that you've carried with you into this new denomination that eventually is going to explode and drag you right back to the reasons you left the

United Methodist Church. Because people who are advocates of homosexuality, even in ministry, are using the same hermeneutic that feminists do.

They believe that the prohibitions that we read in the

New Testament, especially perhaps Paul, they believe that this has to do with cultural phenomenon.

And the interesting thing is that their descriptions of the cultural phenomenon are not very flattering to women.

Oh, that women had a tendency to gossip in the church, they couldn't keep their mouths shut during the sermons being preached, and things like that.

So Paul was reacting to that. But when I bring them back to, no, he wasn't.

And I mentioned that Paul said, for Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

And it seems to just like fly over their heads. They don't respond to that specific argument.

Have you heard yourself any arguments that have any weight to them at all in response to that text in 1

Timothy 2? Yeah, I've read a lot of egalitarian literature. I don't find any of their arguments very strong, to be frank.

And I think that's because Paul writes very clearly here, and he gives the prohibition, and then his reasoning is based on creation, and the creation order is that the man was formed first.

And so that has some sort of, like the creation priority has some sort of significance regarding male leadership.

And then he even says that the woman was deceived and not the man. I mean, some today try to say that's a role reversal.

I think he's getting at the different constituencies of men and women, and that man is made to lead, woman is meant to follow.

And so that's why the woman was deceived. But so yeah, I mean, his reasoning is very clear.

And then you also have male headship in the home, that's very clear throughout the New Testament, and then not to mention the entire

Old Testament background. So I think, and then we can add the historical argument, which is essentially what my book is doing, is that the church has always understood the

Bible to teach male headship in the home and in the church, and even outside of that. And it's evangelical feminism is a departure from historic traditional

Christianity. So like you said, we do hold Scripture as our highest authority, and earlier men can err.

But if you're going against the entirety of church history prior to, let's say, like 1800, that shouldn't really make you question things.

Maybe, maybe, just maybe you're reading Scripture through a modern egalitarian lens, and the culture is affecting how you read things, and you're feeling the pressure and giving in.

And I think that's often what's happening with people. There's definitely cultural pressure, even culture in the church often, unfortunately, to soften the teaching of male headship in the home and to soften in the church, which would mean trying to put women up front more for leadership in worship, and then even, you know, to the point of ordaining women to office.

And I think that just goes against all of earlier church history.

You bring up the, Chris, you brought up what's essentially the slippery slope argument. And I think, you know, sometimes people like to call that a fallacy, but it's really just, it's actually a pretty good argument because you're pointing out the fact that, well, two things is, one, the churches that tend to ordain, the churches that ordain homosexuals or allow homosexuality, they all started as first ordaining women or allowing, denying male headship.

They first became egalitarians. That always happens, just because you can point to some church today, like the

EPC or something that, you know, allows some egalitarianism, but doesn't ordain homosexuals, or they still condemn homosexuality as sin.

Okay, that's the exception. And we don't know what the future holds for them, but they're hermeneutic, as you pointed out, is the same.

They're denying this natural difference between men and women.

And when you do that, you know, you end up denying the natural difference for other things.

And so I do think there's a logical connection here. And we have to go to our midway break right now.

Please be patient with us, folks. It's a little longer than the breaks. Please don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcroft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Zach Garris as we continue to discuss his book, Honor Thy Fathers, Recovering the

Anti -Feminist Theology of the Reformers, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

We have Kevin in Mimarinac, New York who wants to know, you used a term earlier that I am not familiar with, the word compliment is in it.

Oh yeah, he's talking about complementarianism, and it is interesting that that word was even chosen by those who believe in male headship because it's kind of confusing.

It almost seemed like it was intentionally chosen as to not be too aggressive or not give the appearance of mean -spiritedness or male chauvinism or something,

I don't know. But if you could explain that term. And you're on mute brother.

Oh wait a minute, I have you on mute. Sorry about that. No that's alright.

Okay, so the term complimentarian came about in I believe the late 1980s, and it was coined by the

Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, and then they did that book, edited by Wayne Grudem and John Piper, and that was

Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. It's like 1992, I think was the first year. So it's associated with a movement, and complimentarianism,

I would explain it as a reaction or response to evangelical feminism. And they definitely affirm two main points, which is that the husband is the head of his household, and that men are to lead in the church.

So they opposed, you know, things like female pastors and elders. The problem,

I think, with complimentarianism on the whole is that since then, it's kind of fractured, and there's been widespread disagreement amongst those who use the label complimentarian.

So I'm not a huge fan of the term, partly because I think it's kind of confusing.

There's two words that, you know, sound the same, compliment, one's with an I, one's with an E, and so people always misspell it, that's never good.

And the other thing I would add, though, is I think it was intentionally a move away from some of the teachings of earlier

Christian theologians, including the reformers. I think they, because they were responding to egalitarianism, you know, there's somewhat of a strategic aspect to this.

They were trying to make it palatable in our culture. The problem is, is male headship is not palatable to most people who are just raised in feminism.

They find it offensive. And so I'm not saying we shouldn't try to be winsome at all or appealing, but at some point we have to just realize that we have to affirm what

Scripture teaches plainly, and it's, you know, going to bother some people. But we try to explain why it's good, and it's

God's design, and it's what God has commanded. So I'm not a huge fan of the term.

I prefer, I mean, some people prefer the term patriarchy. Kind of with this book, I'm just saying, like,

I just hold traditional views. I hold what traditional Christian teaching on male leadership and the like.

And we could quickly add that there are many men in the ministry who hold to very sound biblical understandings of the gender roles who still use the term complementarian.

They may use it even on their church websites or what have you. They're no less faithful to the

Bible than you are in your understanding of it. They might even be identical to many patriarchal folks.

And patriarchy has its own lightning rod attached to it, because people may immediately assume, oh, these are men that think that they should be given a liberty to beat their wives, treat them horribly, you know, not respect them as equal in the sight of God.

And what I mean by that, as you know, is we have equal value in the sight of God, even though we have different roles.

And we are not to disregard the gifts that women have.

And I think that there is a reason why Aquila is mentioned in the

New Testament along with her husband—I'm sorry, Priscilla is mentioned along with her husband Aquila.

And they were involved in, you know, educating new converts and so on.

So, we have to be careful that we thoroughly explain what we mean by our views.

And just like a lot of things that have happened, wouldn't you agree that because of sins that have occurred in the church, generations later are still dealing with the baggage of that?

I do not, for a minute, believe in the whole reparation demand of leftists saying that we owe every black person in the

United States reparations because of the guilt of white people for the sin of slavery, even if your ancestors had nothing to do with that.

My ancestors were from Scandinavia and Poland and came here at the end of the

Civil War. They never owned slaves, you know. We could go on and on with the absurdity of that. But at the same time, to ignore the fact that this nation isn't having some kind of repercussions from that sin of chattel slavery that this nation was guilty of condoning and so on.

And, you know, even in this whole regard to leaving sins like racism—and, of course, you and I, I'm sure, will agree that there is only one race, that is, the human race—but the sins of bigotry and so on, those who are biblically believing

Christians, largely squandered an opportunity to fight against those things biblically and let leftists rule the day in publicly opposing them, which led to the

Civil Rights Movement, which, even though there were many people with wonderful intentions involved in that, there was some very horrible consequences theologically.

There was Marxism involved in all that. So when Bible -believing

Christians do not man up and stand up biblically against sins that plague our society, the society and the church itself bears the repercussions of these things.

Am I overstepping here? Yeah, I mean, I think that the church has a duty, of course, to address the problems and sins of our day.

And so, you know, that's where this would apply. I mean, the slave trade back in the day was obviously horrific and caused all sorts of problems that, you know, for future generations.

But yeah, today, I mean, the main issues—well, there's several sins we have to deal with—but there's a lot of chaos, you know, amongst men and women and understanding the differences between men and women.

I mean, this, you know, we're talking about what's often called gender roles, or I prefer the term duties.

But there's, you know, things like transgenderism and homosexuality, these are all related to this subject.

And lots of young people are growing up, and sadly, they don't really know what a man is or what a woman is.

And so it's the duty of the church to speak to these things. And we have clear biblical teaching regarding men and women.

I mean, we have the Genesis account. And like you said, men and women—I think we always have to say this when we're talking about male headship or male rule—is men and women are both fully made in the image of God.

They're of equal worth and value before God. And of course, we condemn all abuses of authority and all that's wrong.

I mean, we're not just talking about male rule. We don't want ungodly male rule.

We want righteous and godly male rule. We want men to fulfill the duties that God has called of them.

And so, I mean, I would include in there protecting women and children, you know, particularly their wives, but really anyone in their family, and providing for them.

And I think that's a glorious thing. And the wives are—you know, a wife is made as a helper to her husband, as Genesis 2 says.

And the husband is to honor his wife, just as the wife is to, you know, respect her husband.

That's Ephesians 5. And so, yeah, and I think what you're saying here,

Chris, is right. The church needs to speak to these things. There's so much confusion. And yeah, okay, maybe we can't reach everybody, but we can at least reach the people in our churches, and sometimes well outside of that.

And we have to at least start by preaching and teaching what Scripture says in our churches. And if we don't do that, then our own children and congregations are going to be confused and succumb to secular ideologies, false teachings, such as feminism.

And so, you know, it's not always comfortable. Maybe you might upset some people, but we must stand on the

Word of God. And that's what we're called to do, even, I say especially amidst cultural pressures.

By the way, Kevin, you have just won a free copy of Honor Thy Fathers, Recovering the

Anti -Feminist Theology of the Reformers by my guest, Pastor Zachary Garris, with a forward by my long -time friend,

Joseph A. Piper. And so, you're going to need to please give us your full mailing address in Mamaroneck, New York, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

can ship that book out to you. We have Jerry in Lloyds Harbor, Long Island, New York.

And Jerry wants to know, can you please explain specifically what you believe are the duties of a woman in the church, and what would be prohibitions against her roles in the church and in the home?

Sure. I do not think Scripture prohibits women from working outside the home.

However— Lydia, the seller of purple and— Right. Yeah. I mean, even Proverbs 31, though, you know,

I think that's typological. But it's definitely—speaking of women being industrious, right?

So, Scripture doesn't place that prohibition. But I do believe that the

Bible orients women towards domestic duties. So, you have passages. Let me pull them up here.

There's 1 Timothy 5, 14, where Paul's dealing with widows.

But he says, therefore I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house.

And he says, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach. And then the other one

I would go to is Titus 2. And I mentioned these some in the book. Titus 2, verse 3, older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior.

And then he goes on to say, teaching what is good, verse 4, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, love their children, to be sensible, pure workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

So, again, I don't think there's a prohibition there on working outside the home. It depends on, you know, the household situation.

Obviously, there's sometimes single moms, things like that. But I do think that the ideal situation, if we can, is that the husband is the main provider of home financially, and that the wife orients her work towards the home, especially when there's young children to be raised.

I mean, I think that's kind of the one thing I would say with feminism today is feminism does push women outside the home.

It says to be of equal value as a man, you have to go have a full -time career outside the home.

And I think that's wrong. I think we need a higher value of women and of motherhood in particular.

And we need to preach that. And we have these passages. I mean, you have plenty of passages teaching the glory of motherhood.

And we all have fathers and mothers. And I just think mothers are so important.

And, you know, it's great when they can stay home with the kids, especially when they're young. And when we don't do that,

I think, on the large scale, especially, we're seeing that in our culture, is it causes a lot of problems.

Our family lives are in disarray. We have high divorce rates and the like. And there's just,

I guess maybe the thing is to say is there's a lot of work that needs to be done at the home, in the home, and with children.

And God has oriented that task to mothers.

I think that's their primary task, whereas men should primarily provide. Great. Well, congratulations, listener.

You've also just won Honor Thy Fathers by my guest Zachary Garris. Compliments of new

Christendom Press. And this will be shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

So make sure that we have your full mailing address. We have

Kirk in Coralville, Iowa. And Kirk says, since you do not believe that women should lead singing in church, if I heard you correctly, do you believe that we should sing hymns written by women?

Yeah. I don't think anyone should. I don't think women should be the leaders of like a public worship service in some sense.

I mean, if you have a choir or something, I think that's fine. But I actually think most of the public—and

I get into some in the book—is that the leading of public worship should primarily be by the pastor and maybe even ruling elders, though there's differences of views there.

Okay, so as far as singing hymns, when you sing a hymn, as long as it's biblically faithful and whatnot,

I mean, you don't know whether it's by a man or a woman. So I don't really see why that matters. You might say Fannie Crosby right on the hymnal. Yeah, right at the bottom, right.

Yeah. I don't think she's not doing public teaching.

I mean, for example, I read books written by women. That's at the individual level.

I think it just doesn't seem to be violating Paul's command. I agree with you.

In fact, I thought somebody that I know years ago was standing next to him in a worship service, and they began to sing a hymn by a woman, and he actually threw his hymnal on the floor.

I thought that was ridiculous. Because the reason why I have no problem singing a hymn by a woman or especially reading a book by a woman is that she is not in the office of a teacher over me.

I'm sure that you would agree that a husband can learn from his wife.

She may be even more biblically literate than him, and he may be a new believer.

She may have been a believer for 40 years, and she marries this man who's a new convert.

I'm assuming that you would believe she can teach him things, but she's not in the office of a teacher over him.

For me to read a book, I am not confined in a place where I am obligated to sit there and be taught by a woman.

She doesn't have any role of authority over me. If I want to learn what some woman has to say about a particular subject, and I interview female authors,

I don't have any problem with my conscience over that. Do you have anything to add?

Maybe I am not quite in the same eye -to -eye with you on that, but you could comment if you'd like.

Yeah, I agree with you. Older writers made the distinction between private and public teaching, and so I think there's nothing wrong with a woman, even individually, teaching me.

If it's informal especially, she's showing me something in Scripture she learned.

There's nothing wrong with that. I think husbands actually should ask for the advice of their wives. I think that's important.

Husbands should lead, and I do think it's the man's duty to lead things like family worship.

But if he's gone, the wife can do it. She can teach the children. She should teach the children regularly.

So I think that Scripture is primarily prohibiting women from formal, public teaching roles.

Right. Well, Kirk, guess what? You've also won a free copy of Honor Thy Fathers. Make sure that we have your full mailing address in Coralville, Iowa, and CVBBS will ship that out to you.

Let's see here. We have another listener question. We have

Bryce in Hoboken, New Jersey, and Bryce wants to know, let me see, he says some other things here that aren't involving a question.

Oh, Bryce wants to know, have you witnessed any serious abuse by well -known preachers or just preachers of whom you are aware that have taken what your views are to a faulty extreme?

Yeah, I mean there's, I'm not sure I can remember names off the top of my head, but there have been some maybe associated with the patriarchy camp in the past that maybe even turned out that they were abusive in some of their practices.

But of course, that's not taking Scripture into its full account. I mean, so we have the teachings that the husband is to lead and exercise authority, but then you have like 1

Peter where he says, honor your wives as the weaker vessel. And so Scripture is definitely telling us to lead for the good of our wives and our children and those, you know, others in our family.

So I mean, that's clearly just a misinterpretation or twisting of Scripture, but it does exist.

Yes, and I'm also assuming that you believe that husbands can be moronic and not really demonstrate

Paul's command that they love their wives as Christ loved the church and laid down his life for her.

They may make decisions about vitally important things without even consulting their wives.

They may be just dictators, authoritarians who they're going to decorate the house the way they want it decorated.

Their wife has no input on the wallpaper, the color of the paint, the furniture.

You know, you could go on and on and on, and these things happen. You know, you have men that are bullies, and very often when

I have encountered men like that in real life, they're usually cowards when it comes to other men.

But I'm not going to say that every one of them is like that because I don't know. But men in their sin and stupidity can twist exactly what we're talking about today, can't they?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you think about it, a man is called to lead, and the sins that men tend to be prone to would be abuse of authority or tyranny or just lack of leadership, right, not fulfilling his duty, abrogating their duty, and maybe they're just letting their wives lead or whatnot.

And then women, on the flip side, women are supposed to respectfully submit to and follow their husbands.

And their sins, they're prone to either be doormats and not even give advice or be involved in the marriage or parenting, or maybe more common today is women failing to submit.

They want to lead. They want to control. And that's kind of the feminist spirit. And so you have sins of both men and women.

I think it's important we recognize that. And I think, Paul, people tend to say this. I think this is right. Paul is targeting maybe the primary failures of men and women in Ephesians 5, is that husbands need to be told to love their wives because that's harder for them to do.

And wives need to be told to submit to their husbands because that is harder for them to do. It's just we all struggle as fallen men and women.

And there is no biblical liberty, if you want to use that word, allowance, permission for a man to use violence against his wife.

Of course not. Yeah. And that unfortunately has been the case with some even professing

Christian husbands and even regenerate husbands who are in serious sin, and that they need to be disciplined and even excommunicated if they don't repent.

So I'm assuming that one of your major problems with the soft complementarianism is the view that has been popularized where you have men in leadership writing and teaching, and it seems that as the old saying goes, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, claiming male headship, and yet saying such things as, oh, well, we make sure that no woman is on our elder board.

There's no woman who's a pastor, but they could do anything else other than be an elder or a pastor.

They can do anything else but have authority over men in the church. But that's really not the spirit of what's being taught there, is it?

Yeah, that's right. So we mentioned complementarianism earlier. Two terms have kind of been used to describe the two different groups, is there's broad complementarians, which would be something closer to my position, and then narrow complementarians.

And that's really what's caused a lot of the problems today in the church, is like you said, there's people using the term complementarian, calling themselves complementarian, but then they really in practice are something closer to an egalitarianism, whether it's their view of male headship is very watered down, and really just sometimes they'll describe it as, well, the husband just has a tie -breaking vote.

But it's just not very strong of a view of male leadership.

But also, yeah, there's this phrase that has been promoted by narrow complementarians.

Probably the best example would be Tim Keller, is he said that a woman may do whatever a non -ordained man may do, and so that's where they end up allowing women to do more things in like the public worship service.

But I think there's a couple problems with that, is one, that's actually not faithful to what the

New Testament teaches. We looked at First Timothy 2 earlier, as I said there,

Paul places a prohibition on women that he doesn't place on men, and so that's actually incorrect. There might be something a non -ordained man may do that would be prohibited to men, but maybe the other problem is some churches may be having non -ordained men do too much in a public worship service.

So that's why I think, to give an example, the Westminster Assembly, in another document they drafted,

I think it was the Directory for Worship, and I have it in the book, they said that the reading of Scripture and leading of prayers in public worship should be done by the minister, or they also allowed theology professors, which they would include as ministers or teachers.

So pastors, teachers, or they even said like licentiates, so that would be somebody like licensed to preach by a presbytery, or even a man training for the ministry.

So there's like an exceptional case where maybe the elders of a church have an intern or something, he's not ordained, he might not even be licensed, and they want to let him get up there and lead a prayer, and that I think might be perfectly proper.

I don't think it should be the norm, but it's not forbidden, and it fits with the spirit of what we're doing as far as trying to train men to lead in the church.

But a woman shouldn't do that, in my opinion. I think that would be exercising some sort of authority, some sort of leadership in the public worship service.

So that narrow complementarian phrase, a woman may do anything a non -ordained man may do, I think is very troublesome.

Okay, we have Scotty in Searcy, Arkansas, who wants to know, do you believe in women deacons?

I do not. I think women should serve with the deacons.

I think that it's fine to have assistance to the deacons. I'll actually mention in the PCA, our book of church order allows for male or female assistants to be appointed to the deacons.

But I preached and actually written on 1 Timothy 3, and I think that Paul is only speaking of men there as holding the office of deacon, and even you get into examples like Phoebe in Romans 16, and I don't think she was a deacon.

I think she's called a servant of some sort. I don't think that's referring to the office. So I've gotten into some of those arguments online.

I should note, though, I mean, there are some who oppose women elders or pastors who think women can be deacons, like Andreas Kostenberger argues that.

I believe Grace Community Church, where John MacArthur is, although they don't believe that a woman in the deaconate is holding an office, that it's just a servant role and nothing more.

Yeah. Okay. So that sounds like Calvin's view, which some people like to cite Calvin here, but John Calvin actually distinguished between administrator deacons, which he thought should be men, and then the servant deacons, which he thought could include women.

But I mean, I've rarely, or I guess I haven't seen anybody practice that. So it's kind of this distinction that's not actually made.

But I will note this has been a problem in the PCA, because our book of church order does not allow women to hold the office of deacon, and yet you've had some who have pushed the practice of commissioning deaconesses, and it's caused a lot of confusion.

But all that is to say there has been some debate here amongst the reformed, even those who would be more conservative and traditional on male leadership for the office of elder.

And you also have the problem that I have witnessed a major reformed church in Pennsylvania that has historically been a wonderful church in most respects, and very influential in my life.

But female deacons were grandfathered in, as it were, perhaps I should say grandmothered in.

When the church left the PCUSA and became a member of your denomination,

PCA, they were for some reason allowed to retain their female deacons, and that can be a problem as well.

Well, I'm not sure that that was correct, that they're actually supposed to be ordained. I don't think that fits with our rules.

Some have argued that for some of the churches that came in, also from the RPCES. But no,

I think that argument is a problem, and I'm not sure about that specific case you mentioned,

Chris, but I do know our rules forbid it, and the reason this has been an issue of contention in the

PCA is that the rules are very clear, and there has been a very strong effort to undermine our rules.

And unfortunately, Tim Keller's church was even doing that at Redeemer. They were commissioning deaconesses, and actually as I show in the book, and I footnote it,

I give evidence of this, is that they even stopped, Tim Keller said they stopped laying hands on the men when they were ordaining them as deacons.

He said it was for logistic reasons, but I know at least some churches are doing that to give the impression that there's no distinction between their men and women serving on their diaconate, whether they're ordained men or commissioned women, and I think that's a problem.

I mean, my view of Scripture is that the office of deacon is limited to men, but then you also bring in another issue, which is following the church's rules, and that's a whole other problem today, is people not always wanting to follow the rules.

And we have to go to our final break. Don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Buttafuoco and Associates from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I also want to remind my listeners that the church where I was formerly a member before moving to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York is having their

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Friday and Saturday, the 23rd and 24th of August, go to gracereformedbaptistchurch .org,

gracereformedbaptistchurch .org. And we have

Dixon in Anaconda, Montana, who wants to know, have you gotten any negative feedback because of your book, and particularly because of your views in general?

And has it ever reached the point of being more than feedback, but it's actually been a detriment to your life as a minister?

I would say maybe surprisingly no. I mean, I do get some negative book reviews, and some people seem to dislike me.

But other than that, it hasn't been too much of a negative response. I tend to think,

I mean, this is my second book on the subject. I did the first one that was a little more exegetical, which is called

Masculine Christianity. And then this one's more historical, Honor Thy Fathers. I tend to think that the feminists ignore my writings.

I'd like to think that's because they don't have good arguments or responses. But I will note, if they are ignoring these things, it's not because they have no influence.

I mean, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback from people in, whether it's

PCA or SPC and other churches, other denominations, just finding these books to be helpful in their arguments, and also developing a biblical practice for men and women.

Okay, we have Boyd in Mercer Island, Washington, and he wants to know, how do you suggest trying to rectify a problem in your church that appears to be violating the very principles you are speaking of?

I'm not talking about my own church. I'm talking about the church of a very dear friend who's confided in me.

Yeah, I mean, it's hard. You obviously need to try to speak to your elders and pastors at the church.

They lead the church, and so they have to make those kind of decisions. And I would speak with them, maybe give them some good resources, things

I've written or articles online, others that you find. But I mean, at the end of the day, they have to make decisions, and they have rules if they're in a denomination or whatnot.

And as long as they're following their denominational rules, and I mean, maybe you think they've got scripture wrong, if it's serious enough,

I mean, you might just want to go somewhere else. I mean, there are feminist egalitarian churches out there that we can't really do much other than try to persuade them on these things.

So I don't really have a great answer other than you have to really try to work within the authority structures of the church.

By the way, this is not exactly the same thing, but I wish that I had kept in contact with this woman.

But years ago, my church was a part of a program, a radio program that I created called

The Voice of Sovereign Grace. And it involved five different reformed pastors who each had one of their sermons aired every night.

And my pastor was one of them. And he was teaching on male headship in the church and in the home.

And believe it or not, a female elder in a PCUSA church called me because I was the one manning the phones.

She called me and she said, your pastor's message convicted me that I cannot remain in the eldership as a woman.

And not only do I have to step down, I have to leave this church because they permit this. And so I only say that so that people don't view people who are in great error in this situation or in any other situation.

Don't view them as beyond all hope. You never know what

God is. We've got to remember, especially those of us who are reformed, God is in control. He's sovereign and he could change people's hearts and minds over anything.

I mean, he can save the worst of sinners and redeem them and transform them.

But anyway, I just thought I'd say that. Well, I'd like you, Brother Pastor Zach, to summarize what you most etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this topic.

I think I would say that I think this topic is very important. It's one of the more pressing matters of our day because of the secular influence of feminism.

And I think we can make a two pronged argument, both that we do have the historical kind of traditional

Christian view of male headship and all of life. And we also have even that is rooted in Scripture.

And so if I could just add even kind of tied with that, Chris, what you're saying is the word of God is powerful and God's spirit works through it.

And so, yeah, I don't think we should be discouraged about these things. I think we should do our due diligence and studying the

Bible and reading up on these things. And then we should whatever our position is in. I mean, if you're a man in your home, lead your family well.

And if you're a pastor or teacher, teach these things. And I mean, we're going to have people, even ourselves, we all are influenced by feminism and have some false beliefs, erroneous beliefs and practices.

And so our job is to rebuke and exhort and teach the Scriptures. And I like you said,

I mean, God does change people. I've seen it. You know, my own view is corrected. I've seen people in my church change their position.

I mean, that's part of the sanctification process. And so we just need to be diligent in teaching the word of God.

Yeah, immediately what comes to mind is Rosaria Butterfield, a lesbian

Marxist feminist who was transformed by the power of Christ and is no longer any of those things.

And she's a very bold Christian witness for the gospel and for biblical gender duties.

But I want to thank you so much, Pastor Zach, for doing such a wonderful job today.

And I want to repeat the title of your book, Honor Thy Fathers, Recovering the

Anti -Feminist Theology of the Reformers, forward by my friend Joey Piper.

And anybody listening could pick up this book from New Christendom Press.

And if you haven't won a copy, I urge you to go to newchristendompress .com,

newchristendompress .com. And if you want to look for other titles on the issue of feminism, go to solid -ground -books .com,

solid -ground -books .com, and also cvbbs .com, cvbbs .com.

And I want to remind our listeners, if you live in the White Rock, New Mexico area, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones in that area, or you're passing through, maybe going on vacation near there, go to brycepresbyterian .org

to find out more about this fine church, b -r -y -c -e presbyterian .org.

I want to thank you so much again, Pastor Zach. I look forward to your return to my show. I want to thank everybody who listened today.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater