October 26, 2022 Show with Ed Wilde on “Legal Issues in Biblical Counseling”

The Ministry of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and the Guest Introduction

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 26th day of October 2022. And by the way folks if you are interested in seeing a brief video of A television news interview I gave to a CBS TV news reporter on Monday.

Just send me an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And I will send you the link. The interview was in response to a recent event that occurred at the Bethel Assembly of God here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Where an armed woman was threatening violence to congregation members? Apparently with the intent to kidnap the pastor and hold him for ransom obviously a disturbed woman. Thankfully she was arrested before there was any harm done any physical harm done to anyone present.

But I gave a very brief interview on that with a CBS TV news reporter. And I will get you that link should you desire to see it, but I'm very excited to have a first-time guest today. He is a very important guest and we're going to be addressing one of the most important issues that we could possibly be addressing in the 21st century in this very frightening litigious age where those on the left politically and even religiously are seeking to cripple and destroy the Church of Christ.

And The guest that is here today to help Pastors and counselors and Christian leaders prevent that from happening as best as we can on this earth.

Is.

Edward Charles Wilde he is an editor along with T. Dale Johnson jr. of A very important book that anyone in Christian leadership needs to get their hands on legal issues in biblical counseling Direction and help for churches and counselors Published by New Growth Press and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you For the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio Ed Wilde very much for having me.

I'm I'm really quite honored to do this and I will also tell you this is the first interview I've done in the book so far. We want to say thank you for that, too. I have some coming up right. You were the very first person to get this.

Well praise God I am delighted to have the honor and privilege to be that person and To give you all listening a little bit more details About Ed. He is an author. He is an ACBC certified counselor an associated attorney with Alliance defending freedom.

And Years ago. I got Alliance defending freedom involved in a case where the Notorious former president of Americans United for separation of church and state Barry Lynn Was threatening to sue my dear friend.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries. After a debate the two had a public debate at a Presbyterian Church in Huntington, Long Island. The debate was on is homosexuality compatible with biblical Christianity and Barry Lynn who is an ACLU attorney lost that debate so badly he threatened to sue Dr. James White if he dared to distribute the video of that debate and I Contacted the Alliance defending freedom, which was at that time called the Alliance Defense Fund and they immediately agreed to be James White's legal counsel and When they went to the hearing to discuss this Barry Lynn and his attorney did not show up.

So the The judge obviously granted in favor of dr. White to distribute the video as he pleased. So I just thought I'd throw that in there and also my guest Ed Wilde is an adjunct professor at the Master's Seminary and We are going to be discussing the aforementioned book legal issues and biblical counseling direction and help for churches and counselors as I Informed you before the show Ed.

We have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion radio. A tradition that seems to be greatly loved by many in our listening audience all over the world. That tradition is that whenever we have a first-time guest that guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious atmosphere if any they were raised in and any kind of providential circumstances that our Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them and that would include you some.

Very interested to hear your story. Thank you very much and Yes, I I'm glad to hear that ADF did such a fine job with them with ADF but I actually work at a law firm outside of in private practice in Pasadena and We do do First Amendment work there and all the oversaw among other things counseling at a church in the Los Angeles Area for about eight years, too I was raised at some of my early who had been passed on my earliest memories.

I can't remember as a child ever not going to however as I started to grow became perhaps more acute when I got to college. That began to wonder whether I because they've been taught to me or because they were true.

It wasn't that I had directly some particular Christ. I believe actually were mine. Having a thought similar to that when I was a child when I was a kid growing up We had something at our school called release time and in release time There was an hour out of the week where the students were all released to go to religious education.

So the Protestant churches went to one place the Roman Catholic churches went to a different place. My best friend at the time was the Roman Catholic side and I would go to the Protestant side and I began to wonder Parents, you know what?

I have believed the things that he believed so by the time I got to college I Began to question what I believed not because I had some particular reason to believe that it was false but just merely wondering if I believe these things because I've been taught them or if I believe them because The beginning of college a pretty thorough one and I tried to read what other people believed about the father got Ida I read corrupt atheists.

So I spent time trying to find out what everybody else believed about what they believed and why they did it. I Also tried to believe out. We got. I tried to why some people didn't believe Christianity was true.

What sorts of arguments were being made that the Bible was not in fact true and how strong were those are? It wasn't the lawyer yet but apparently already had sort of an inclination towards the strength of arguments then and after having done that I Came to the conclusion that I couldn't come up with a good reason for believing the Bible was not true.

And I had no particular reason to believe that these other Different religions or anti religions or non religions were true. I I didn't find better evidence or better reason to believe these things. Other than what I was taught and so at this point I feel very comfortable with Christianity and the truth of Christianity and the truth of the Bible and I not had anything which has shaken my faith.

I know for instance every year Easter Time magazine is going to run some cover story about how they finally found Jesus's body someplace in Jerusalem. And it will always be defunct as always. So those sorts of things don't bother me anymore, but that would probably be the biggest thing that gave me difficulty was Just trying to make sure that my faith was my own and not something that I merely inherited and when did you realize?

That God had placed a.

Call upon your life to enter into the field of law. Yeah, I happened was I was an English major in college. And when I started to get towards the end at the time I was trying to figure out how to make a living and so I really get a law firm at the time and I figured well.

They read and write so I know how to do that when I started to get an overlap and legal matters actually came a few years ago because here for a number of years and then studied very hard on my own I kind of an auto diktat so I learned Greek and Hebrew by studying.

I Learned theology and church history history by just reading a great deal. And I was an elder at a church for somebody to take a particular pastoral position. So I ended up taking over the pastoral position.

I'd already been teaching at masters in the undergraduate department Teaching business law and some other classes and then after I came on staff at the church I began to teach some classes that had things to do with Stifleship things like that.

I completed a master's degree in biblical counseling here at the Masters University and I started to teach in the biblical counseling department all church then I left being on staff at the church about 2015 and I went back into practicing the law again.

The questions about legal issues started to come up having had an unusual kind of background having both worked at a church. And worked in the law. I had some experience that a number of other people then John Street ACBC and as the chairman of the biblical counseling department here at the Masters University.

Put me in touch with Dale Johnson who's the director of a TV actually? We started talking about and putting together what became this book and so we started to talk about what sorts of issues come up with a university on the topic and.

As I worked through the issues with the started to come up with a good list of the kind of faith with the legal system and that enabled us to put together a good list of what kinds of topics we needed to cover and that ended up being the book so it was the legal issues and the Thing that came together over the course of time teaching in that area and then having been a pastor and also being a lawyer.

Why This Book on Legal Issues in Biblical Counseling Was Needed

Now now this book could not be more timely. I am not aware of any other book. Exactly like this. Perhaps you're aware of something that I don't know.

I'm sure you are but as far as that point I can tell you that I I don't know any other book like it. In fact, I Great deal of the book actually came from the notes that I had in teaching the class here at Masters University.

Because I couldn't get any book that was anywhere near this. I'm in terms of how does the how does pastoral ministry there may be such a book, but I well you have the.

The book divided in two parts. The first part is how do I protect a counseling ministry in the church and Part two is how do I protect myself and my counselees? Obviously the two most important aspects of this whole subject as people who are Christians and who are conservative and who have biblical values very often are cowering in fear and in greater degrees in our current day because of the litigious nature of the left and It is as I said Quite a growing phenomenon and a disturbing a phenomenon.

The issues that are involved in this book are very thorough as well. Should pastors even be involved in counseling. There are even some within evangelicalism who Think that the sermons preached should be sufficient To any counseling needs that the congregation have.

And then there are others who radically oppose that view but in your opinion in regarding to the legal.

Risks. Should pastors be involved in counseling. Well, I think that it is a critical part of pastoral ministry. I can answer both of those questions. I had imagined for this particular interview probably more interested on the legal side but I think that a I think that is Something that is ministerially needed for the church and some of the reasons for that are.

And. And this gets to the questions you are preaching and. Some of them think well if I'm just preaching that may give me more protection when it comes to the legal system and I would say absolutely they should be doing counseling or they should learn how to do counseling and.

Biblical Counseling Is Not Therapy

To the legal complications are between being a giving counseling and not doing therapy under a different name. So here at the outset to explain the difference between what we mean by doing counseling.

Biblical counseling biblical Soul care. Those are names that are used and doing therapy. So if you don't mind it, oh, yeah, that's that's excellent.

Please do.

Paradigm for therapy. Has been Freud even of any strife or it set up a basic paradigm to understand human beings and without using this Technical terminology would go together something like this Human beings are born with a certain set of desires things that we want to do.

If we were talking about Postmodernism they would refer to those sorts of things as preferences the society at large Will stand in the way of that so picking up an idea that comes perhaps from Rousseau you have this idea that the individual is Really what the good thing is and the culture and the culture is bad because in a Freudian understanding The culture keeps the individual from being able to do what he or she wants to do.

So there will be limitations on my sexual practice. Human sexuality Seems to be an enormously important Area when it comes to the particular person in and of themselves not be good or bad thing. They're just whether taught by the parents or society at large or whatever.

So that is the super ego of any of you had an introduction to psychology and read any Freud Comes in and says there's certain things you're not allowed to do. This creates a conflict in the human being between the things that I want to do and the things that I'm not permitted to do.

Psychology then taken very broad psychology and it's really problematic to use the word psychology sometimes because psychology refers to a number of different disciplines all the way from how do my senses Functional level to how do we treat and it refers to 190 some schools in the United States, so there's not anything in particular great many different things but I'm going to use it here just to refer to the General idea we're talking about clinical psychology and giving therapy would not take a moral position on any of those sexual desires.

And that's being enforced by the rest state. We can talk about that later the difficulty which that places on Christians or indeed anybody hold to any sort of traditional Ethic particularly sexual ethic of any religion when it comes to trying to be a licensed psychologist.

But they have these particular long and said you can't do it. What a therapist does is a therapist very narrowly Has the job of trying to help this person navigate that conflict between what they want to do and what they're not allowed.

To do so they try to help the person feel better about the desires that they have so if I come to see a psychologist and I'm feeling difficulty because I find myself Experiencing same-self attraction rather than helping me to not follow along and act out on that same-sex Attraction the job of the therapist is to help me feel good about that same.

The therapist about whatever it is. They want to do and to help them avoid the negative Consequences which might come about from trying to act any things that they want to do. You know one of the areas that Psychology in the law and just in the culture at large is what they are now referring to is mentally attracted by right so We have people who find themselves sexually attracted to children.

The psychologist is doesn't have the job. The therapist doesn't have the job of trying to help the person to not be attracted to children. They have the job of trying to help the person feel okay about that and avoid negative Consequences like going to prison for having sex with children.

So that's what a therapist's job is the therapist's job is to help people feel bad. There'd be circumstances that feel bad feel good not feel bad and in certain circumstances We can look at that as a relatively benign thing, you know, somebody's feeling anxious.

How do I help you feel not anxious anymore? And it's a general matter not feeling anxious is probably a good thing.

It's very unpleasant to feel anxious and in fact, it's a it's a.

Command of Christ not to be anxious, right. And we can talk an example about the difference I'll give you in just a moment when we look at like for instance Philippians chapter 4 About the difference between the way a Christian about anxiety for instance.

So but the therapist's job is just to make the person feel. Okay, when it comes to morally complex if we're talking about what is required of a human. There's a human sexuality. Trying to help you feel bad to look at you know, helping somebody work out Romans 118 is something rather negative.

You're retract the knowledge to feel okay about the fact that they want to engage in sinful behavior. So that would be one of the places where there's a difference what a Christian is supposed to do when it comes to we're talking About physical counseling is we're not doing therapy.

Train people to think and act like Christians of thinking and acting like a Christian will have. Effects. So for instance, we would hope that Thinking and acting like a Christian not to be anxious you brought up that we brought up the issue about anxiety.

Yes, and be anxious for nothing. I might do something like try to find out why you feel a breathing exercises. If you get anxious around train you to notice. How you begin to feel anxious beforehand to train you to not feel frightened about that thing.

It's not really a bad thing something like that. But let me give you eggs there's an example that came up some years ago when I was teaching theology of biblical kids between Christianity would broach a particular topic about feeling anxious and how a psychologist or a young woman.

She was in high party and she became intoxicated. She was filmed it and the photographs were posted online the film was and needless to say the young lady felt horrified and ashamed and wrecked and Very very sadly the young woman she had to leave the school and she was under the care of there and.

Since it's going to have to limit the human being to what we may be. Socially physically. To our environment into our body the most that they could offer this young woman is to try to get her to not feel bad about having been the victim of a crime and You end up and you have this stress committed against her and so what they'll do is for instance.

They'll give her medication anti-anxiety medication or antidepressant medication and the hope that her body won't be able to the emotions. But try to tell her she shouldn't feel bad about what happened to her.

But if we think about it, for instance from a Christian perspective, we have a rather different set of concerns here. We can look at this and see. Subjective victim of my enemy and in place that happens to us when we come into contact With sin when we've been sinned against and when we sin it's it's part of sinner what she needs.

She needs on Peter in chapter 1 refers to the fact that we receive praise glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus be vindicated. She needs more even than just these young men to being and I use the word these monstrous people.

She needs more than them being convicted having been involved the legal system for years. I can tell you that winning Never really provides the vindication that people hope that it will. She even if these men went to prison even if they received the death penalty for what they did She would not receive the degree of vindication which would make up for what had been taken from her.

But the vindication that she can get from Christ will give her his glory his honor his praise. More than makes up for anything the sins that have been committed against us the Righteousness of Christ and the judgment against the sin against her.

Somebody who can say you are not what these monsters said about you you are what I say about you. And You will as we sing in our song be bright shining as the Sun for 10 ,000 years. So there's far more that can be given to somebody in this and that's an example of just the difference.

Another way that might be if you look at Philippians chapter 4 when you brought up anxiety is.

A command word to not be anxious. In fact, could you pick up in Philippians 4 when we return from our first station break? Yes, absolutely. And if anybody has a question for for Ed Wild Please send it in to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a r n Zen a gmail .com. Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I could readily understand any question about counseling.

Would likely give rise to people having very personal very private very intimate questions. So obviously I will grant your request in these cases to remain anonymous, but if you're just asking general questions about general principles about the area of Biblical counseling and other things that involve our discussion if they're just general questions Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Ed Wild right after these messages from our sponsors.

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So we hope to hear good news from Royal Diadem calm soon that many of you are responding. I'm back now with my guest today Edward Charles Wilde who is the co-editor of legal issues and biblical counseling?

Direction and help for churches and counselors. And before the break ed you were just beginning to cite a Quote from Philippians 4 I believe.

Yes, in fact one thing I do want to make clear in discussing the difference between therapy and What a pass we'll see in just a minute. I hope that the legal importance of that. So it's it's really not Foster's and other people ministering in the church when giving counsel this may seem like a direction.

It's actually the straightest line to where we need to go. So to give you an example in Philippians chapter 4 we have the verse which speaks about the fact that Do not be anxious about anything but let your request be made known to God and the peace of God which passes all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

And Anyone who's ever done pastoral counseling or biblical counseling? Will personally say something along the lines of I was anxious I prayed and I don't necessarily feel better. So it didn't work. That's a very common sort of thing to have to understand is is that if you look for instance at the entire?

Chapter of Philippians 4 not to mention the whole rest of the Bible or certainly even just the rest of Philippians. But the command to pray takes place in a matrix of other commands and assertions. So for instance immediately before that Paul begins with his discussion about the fact of the rest of my fellow workers whose names are written in the book of life.

So he speaks about an eternal hope he speaks about the return of the Lord. And then he begins right after the commandment to pray and right after this commandment about Thanksgiving. How we are supposed to conduct ourselves in terms of our thought life.

Whatever is true Whatever is honorable and such to think of those things. And Paul says then also the things which I lack of anxiety. Something that takes place for somebody who has who has been thankful to God and obedient to the commands of God and otherwise living the way a Christian should.

So the lack of anxiety. Not the I can provide to somebody what we are doing is we are seeking to train people. Religious in short to as intensive discipleship training should be doing in the book of somebody who's in a personal conversation where you have a chance for them to ask questions to clarify what it is that they are doing to give them Encouragement or rebuke that is tailored to the place with this particular person is but in substance in a lot of it.

It's really not different than what they're doing at the in the pulpit you would ask that at the beginning. You know certain pastors are thinking I should just preach and I should give up on counseling.

Well, if they're going to do that. Then they have to give up on preaching also because the things that they should be doing in Counseling are the same things they should be doing and the things they're doing in the pulpit are the sorts of things they should be Doing when they're counseling individually when you realize that we're not doing therapy providing and like a Christian.

It should provide some clarity to whether we should do this or not. Does that make sense Chris? Oh, yeah, definitely.

In fact unless you haven't finished concluding with that thread of thought we do have a Number of listeners waiting to ask questions, and if you are free, I would ask the first one that has come through.

Why don't you will just go ahead and do that? So and the point by the way the point I wanted to make there is and I will get to the question. But I wanted you to know why that's important overall to the question.

Biblical ministry and the law. That and there's a number of different particular issues that come up in counseling that we address in the book. And I think I need to make something clear here. I get absolutely no money from the book neither does Dale.

So we're not. I'm not making any money by doing this. So finance this is for the blessing of the church. The money is all being donated to a CBC so neither one of us are getting anything from this and.

But when it comes to the issue about can I go ahead and ask the Christian without getting in trouble. The safest way to do that is to be making it as clear as possible that I'm not doing counseling in the in terms of Doing psychotherapy, but rather that I'm giving instruction and being a Christian, but other than that I would be more than happy to take whatever questions you have.

Great, and I'm sure you would agree before I ask the question that there would be absolutely nothing wrong if you were receiving financial benefits from the publishing of this book as many Christian authors Make a substantial part of their living that way.