October 26, 2022 Show with Ed Wilde on “Legal Issues in Biblical Counseling”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 26th day of October

2022.

And by the way folks if you are interested in seeing a brief video of

A television news interview I gave to a CBS TV news reporter

on Monday.

Just send me an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And I will send you the link.

The interview was in response to a recent event that occurred at

the Bethel Assembly of God here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Where an armed woman was threatening violence to congregation members?

Apparently with the intent to kidnap the pastor and hold him for ransom obviously a

disturbed woman.

Thankfully she was arrested before there was any harm done any physical harm done to

anyone present.

But I gave a very brief interview on that with a CBS TV news reporter.

And I will get you that link should you desire to see it, but I'm very excited to have a first

-time guest today.

He is a very important guest and we're going to be addressing one of the most important issues

that we could possibly be addressing in the 21st century in this very

frightening litigious age where those on the left politically and even religiously

are seeking to cripple and destroy the Church of Christ.

And The guest that is here today to help

Pastors and counselors and Christian leaders prevent that from happening as best as we

can on this earth.

Is.

Edward Charles Wilde he is an editor along with T. Dale Johnson jr.

of A very important book that anyone in Christian leadership needs to get their hands on legal issues

in biblical counseling Direction and help for churches and counselors

Published by New Growth Press and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you For the very first time

ever to iron sharpens iron radio Ed Wilde very much for having me.

I'm I'm really quite honored to do this and I will also tell you this is the first interview I've done in the book so far.

We want to say thank you for that, too.

I have some coming up right.

You were the very first person to get this.

Well praise God I am delighted to have the honor and privilege to be that person and To give you

all listening a little bit more details About Ed.

He is an author.

He is an ACBC certified counselor an associated attorney with

Alliance defending freedom.

And Years ago. I got Alliance defending freedom involved in a case

where the Notorious former president of Americans United for separation of

church and state Barry Lynn Was threatening to sue my dear friend.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries.

After a debate the two had a public debate at a Presbyterian Church in Huntington, Long

Island.

The debate was on is homosexuality compatible with biblical Christianity and

Barry Lynn who is an ACLU attorney lost that debate so badly he

threatened to sue Dr. James White if he dared to distribute the video of

that debate and I Contacted the Alliance defending freedom,

which was at that time called the Alliance Defense Fund and they immediately agreed to

be James White's legal counsel and When they went to the hearing

to discuss this Barry Lynn and his attorney did not show up.

So the The judge obviously granted in favor of dr. White

to distribute the video as he pleased.

So I just thought I'd throw that in there and also my guest Ed Wilde is an adjunct

professor at the Master's Seminary and We are going to be discussing the aforementioned book

legal issues and biblical counseling direction and help for churches and counselors as I

Informed you before the show Ed.

We have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion radio.

A tradition that seems to be greatly loved by many in our listening audience all over the world.

That tradition is that whenever we have a first -time guest that guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony

that would include the kind of religious atmosphere if any they were raised in and any kind of

providential circumstances that our Lord raised up in their lives that drew them

to himself and saved them and that would include you some.

Very interested to hear your story.

Thank you very much and Yes, I I'm glad to hear that ADF did such a fine job

with them with ADF but I actually work at a law

firm outside of in private practice in Pasadena and We do do First Amendment work

there and all the oversaw among

other things counseling at a church in the Los

Angeles Area for about eight years, too

I was raised at some

of my early

who had been

passed on my earliest memories.

I can't remember as a child ever not going to

however as I started

to grow became perhaps more acute when I got to college.

That began to wonder whether I because they've been taught to

me or because they were true.

It wasn't that I had directly some particular

Christ.

I believe actually were mine.

Having a thought similar to that when I was a child when I was a kid growing up We had something at our school called release

time and in release time There was an hour out of the week where the students were all released

to go to religious education.

So the Protestant churches went to one place the Roman Catholic churches went to a different place.

My best friend at the time was the Roman Catholic side and I would go to the Protestant side and I began to wonder

Parents, you know what?

I have believed the things that he believed so by the time I got to college I Began to

question what I believed not because I had some particular reason to believe that it was false but just merely

wondering if I believe these things because I've been taught them or if I believe them

because The beginning of college

a pretty thorough

one and I tried to read what other people believed about the father got Ida

I read corrupt

atheists.

So I spent time trying to find out what everybody else believed about what they believed and why they did

it.

I Also tried to believe out.

We got.

I tried to why some people

didn't believe Christianity was true.

What sorts of arguments were being made that the Bible was not in fact true and how strong were

those are?

It wasn't the lawyer yet but apparently already had sort of an inclination towards the strength of arguments then

and after having done that I Came to the conclusion that I couldn't come

up with a good reason for believing the Bible was not true.

And I had no particular reason to believe that these other Different religions or anti religions

or non religions were true.

I I didn't find better evidence or better reason to believe these things.

Other than what I was taught and so at this point I feel very comfortable with

Christianity and the truth of Christianity and the truth of the Bible and I not had

anything which has shaken my faith.

I know for instance every year Easter Time magazine is going to run some cover

story about how they finally found Jesus's body someplace in Jerusalem.

And it will always be defunct as always.

So those sorts of things don't bother me anymore, but that would probably be the biggest thing that gave me difficulty was

Just trying to make sure that my faith was my own and not something that I merely inherited

and when did you realize?

That God had placed a.

Call upon your life to enter into the field of law.

Yeah, I happened was I was an English major in college.

And when I started to get towards the end at the time I was trying to figure out how to make a

living and so I really get a law firm at the time and I figured well.

They read and write so I know how to do that when I started to get an overlap

and legal matters actually came a few years ago because

here for a number of years and

then studied very hard on my own I kind of an

auto diktat so I learned Greek and Hebrew by studying.

I Learned theology and church history history by just reading a great deal.

And I was an elder at a church for somebody to take a particular pastoral

position.

So I ended up taking over the pastoral position.

I'd already been teaching at masters in the undergraduate department Teaching

business law and some other classes and then after I came on staff at the church I began to teach some classes that

had things to do with Stifleship things like that.

I completed a master's degree in biblical counseling here at the Masters University and I

started to teach in the biblical counseling department all church then

I left being on staff at the church about 2015 and I went back into

practicing the law again.

The questions about legal issues started to come up having had an unusual kind of

background having both worked at a church.

And worked in the law.

I had some experience that a number of other people then John Street

ACBC and as the chairman of the biblical counseling department here at the Masters University.

Put me in touch with Dale Johnson who's the director of a TV

actually?

We started talking about and putting together what became this book and so we started to talk about

what sorts of issues come up

with a university on the topic and.

As I worked through the issues with the

started to come up with a good list of the

kind of faith

with the legal system and that enabled us to put together a good list of what kinds of topics we needed

to cover and that ended up being the book so it was the legal

issues and the Thing that came together over the course of time

teaching in that area and then having been a pastor and also being a lawyer.

Now now this book could not be more timely.

I am not aware of any other book.

Exactly like this.

Perhaps you're aware of something that I don't know.

I'm sure you are but as far as that point I can tell you that I I don't know

any other book like it.

In fact, I Great deal of the book actually came from the notes that I had in teaching the

class here at Masters University.

Because I couldn't get any book that was anywhere near this.

I'm in terms of how does the how does pastoral ministry

there may be such a book, but I well

you have the.

The book divided in two parts.

The first part is how do I protect a counseling ministry in the church and

Part two is how do I protect myself and my counselees?

Obviously the two most important aspects of this whole subject as

people who are Christians and who are conservative

and who have biblical values very often are cowering

in fear and in greater degrees in our current day because of the litigious nature of the

left and It is as I said Quite a growing phenomenon

and a disturbing a phenomenon.

The issues that are involved in this book are very thorough as well.

Should pastors even be involved in counseling.

There are even some within evangelicalism who Think that the sermons

preached should be sufficient To any counseling needs that the congregation

have.

And then there are others who radically oppose that view but in your opinion in regarding to

the legal.

Risks.

Should pastors be involved in

counseling.

Well, I think that it is a critical part of pastoral

ministry.

I can answer both of those questions.

I had imagined for this particular interview probably more interested on the legal side but I think that a I think that is

Something that is ministerially needed for the church and

some of the reasons for that are.

And.

And this gets to the questions you are preaching

and.

Some of them think well if I'm just preaching that may give me more protection when it comes to the legal system and

I would say absolutely they should be doing counseling or they should learn how to do

counseling and.

To the legal complications are

between being a giving counseling

and not doing therapy

under a different name.

So here at the outset to explain the difference between what we mean

by doing counseling.

Biblical counseling biblical Soul care.

Those are names that are used and doing therapy.

So if you don't mind it, oh, yeah, that's that's excellent.

Please do.

Paradigm for therapy.

Has been Freud even

of any strife or it set

up a basic paradigm to understand human beings and without using this Technical

terminology would go together something like this Human beings are born with a certain set of

desires things that we want to do.

If we were talking about Postmodernism they would refer to those sorts of things as preferences

the society at large Will stand in the way of that so picking up an idea that

comes perhaps from Rousseau you have this idea that the individual is Really what the good

thing is and the culture and the culture is bad because

in a Freudian understanding The culture keeps the individual from being able to

do what he or she wants to do.

So there will be limitations on my sexual practice.

Human sexuality Seems to be an enormously important Area when it comes

to the particular person

in and of themselves not be good or bad thing.

They're just whether taught by the parents or

society at large or whatever.

So that is the super ego of any of you had an introduction to psychology and read any Freud Comes in

and says there's certain things you're not allowed to do.

This creates a conflict in the human being between the things that I want to do and the things that I'm not permitted

to do.

Psychology then taken very broad

psychology and it's really problematic to use the word psychology sometimes because psychology refers

to a number of different disciplines all the way from how do my senses

Functional level to how do we

treat and it refers to 190 some schools in the United States, so there's

not anything in particular great many different things but

I'm going to use it here just to refer to the General idea we're talking about clinical psychology and giving therapy

would not take a moral position on any of those sexual desires.

And that's being enforced by the rest state.

We can talk about that later the difficulty which that places on Christians or indeed

anybody hold to any sort of traditional Ethic particularly sexual ethic of any religion

when it comes to trying to be a licensed psychologist.

But they have these particular long and said you can't do it.

What a therapist does is a therapist very narrowly Has the job of

trying to help this person navigate that conflict between what they want to do and what they're not

allowed.

To do so they try to help the person feel better about the desires that they have so

if I come to see a psychologist and I'm feeling difficulty because I

find myself Experiencing same -self attraction rather than helping me to not

follow along and act out on that same -sex Attraction the job of the therapist is to help me feel good about

that same.

The therapist about

whatever it is.

They want to do and to help them avoid the negative Consequences which might come

about from trying to act any things that they want to do.

You know one of the areas that Psychology in the law and just in the culture at large is

what they are now referring to is mentally attracted by right

so We have people who find themselves sexually attracted to children.

The psychologist is doesn't have the job.

The therapist doesn't have the job of trying to help the person to not be attracted to children.

They have the job of trying to help the person feel okay about that and avoid negative Consequences like going to prison

for having sex with children.

So that's what a therapist's job is the therapist's job is to help people feel bad.

There'd be circumstances that feel bad feel good not feel bad and in certain circumstances We

can look at that as a relatively benign thing, you know, somebody's feeling anxious.

How do I help you feel not anxious anymore?

And it's a general matter not feeling anxious is probably a good thing.

It's very unpleasant to feel anxious and in fact, it's a it's a.

Command of Christ not to be anxious, right.

And we can talk an example about the difference I'll give you in just a moment when we look at like for instance

Philippians chapter 4 About the difference between the way a Christian about anxiety

for instance.

So but the therapist's job is just to make the person feel.

Okay, when it comes to morally complex if we're talking about what

is required of a human.

There's a human sexuality.

Trying to help you feel bad to look

at you know, helping somebody work out Romans 118

is something rather negative.

You're retract the knowledge to feel

okay about the fact that they want to engage in sinful behavior.

So that would be one of the places where there's a difference what a Christian is supposed to do when

it comes to we're talking About physical counseling is we're not doing therapy.

Train people to think and act like Christians

of thinking and acting like a Christian will have.

Effects.

So for instance, we would hope that Thinking and acting like a Christian

not to be anxious you brought up that we brought up the issue about anxiety.

Yes, and be anxious for nothing.

I might do something like try to find out why you feel a

breathing exercises.

If you get anxious around train you to notice.

How you begin to feel anxious beforehand to train you to not feel frightened about that thing.

It's not really a bad thing something like that.

But let me give you eggs there's an example that came up some years ago when I was teaching theology of

biblical kids between Christianity

would broach a particular topic about feeling anxious and how a psychologist

or a young woman.

She was in high party and she became intoxicated.

She was filmed it and the

photographs were posted online the film was and needless to say the young lady felt

horrified and ashamed and wrecked and Very very sadly the young woman

she had to leave the school and she was under the care of

there and.

Since it's going to have to limit the

human being to what we may be.

Socially physically.

To our environment into our body the most that they could offer this young woman is to try to get her to not

feel bad about having been the victim of a crime and You end

up and you have this stress

committed against her and so what they'll do is for

instance.

They'll give her medication anti -anxiety medication or antidepressant medication and the hope that her

body won't be able to the emotions.

But try to tell her she shouldn't feel bad about what happened to her.

But if we think about it, for instance from a Christian perspective, we have a rather different set of concerns here.

We can look at this and see.

Subjective victim of my

enemy and in place that happens to us when we come into

contact With sin when we've been sinned against and when we sin it's it's

part of sinner

what she needs.

She needs on Peter in chapter 1 refers to the fact that we

receive praise glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus be vindicated.

She needs more even than just these young men to being and I use the word

these monstrous people.

She needs more than them being convicted having been involved the legal system for years.

I can tell you that winning Never really provides the vindication that people hope that it will.

She even if these men went to prison even if they received the death penalty for what they did She would not receive the degree

of vindication which would make up for what had been taken from her.

But the vindication that she can get from Christ will give her his glory his honor

his praise.

More than makes up for anything the sins that have been committed against us the Righteousness of Christ and

the judgment against the sin against her.

Somebody who can say you are not what these monsters said about you you are what I say about you.

And You will as we sing in our song be bright shining as the Sun for 10 ,000 years.

So there's far more that can be given to somebody in this and that's an

example of just the difference.

Another way that might be if you look at Philippians

chapter 4 when you brought up anxiety is.

A command word to not be anxious.

In fact, could you pick up in Philippians 4 when we return from our first station break?

Yes, absolutely.

And if anybody has a question for for Ed Wild Please send it in to Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a r n Zen a gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I could readily

understand any question about counseling.

Would likely give rise to people having very personal very private very intimate

questions.

So obviously I will grant your request in these cases to remain anonymous, but if you're just asking

general questions about general principles about the area of Biblical

counseling and other things that involve our discussion if they're just general questions Please give us your first name at

least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Ed Wild right after these messages from our sponsors.

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I'm back now with my guest today Edward Charles Wilde who is the co -editor

of legal issues and biblical counseling?

Direction and help for churches and counselors.

And before the break ed you were just beginning to cite a Quote from

Philippians 4 I believe.

Yes, in fact one thing I do want to make clear

in discussing the difference between therapy and What a pass

we'll see in just a minute.

I hope that the legal importance of that.

So it's it's really not

Foster's and other people ministering in the church when giving counsel this may

seem like a direction.

It's actually the straightest line to where we need to go.

So to give you an example in Philippians chapter 4 we have the verse

which speaks about the fact that Do not be anxious about anything but let your request be made

known to God and the peace of God which passes all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

And Anyone who's ever done pastoral counseling or biblical counseling?

Will personally say something along the lines of I was

anxious I prayed and I don't necessarily feel better.

So it didn't work.

That's a very common sort of thing to have to

understand is is that if you look for instance at the entire?

Chapter of Philippians 4 not to mention the whole rest of the Bible or certainly even just the rest of Philippians.

But the command to pray takes place in a matrix of other commands

and assertions.

So for instance immediately before that Paul begins with his discussion about the fact of the rest of my

fellow workers whose names are written in the book of life.

So he speaks about an eternal hope he speaks about the return of the Lord.

And then he begins right after the commandment to pray and right after this commandment about Thanksgiving.

How we are supposed to conduct ourselves in terms of our thought life.

Whatever is true Whatever is honorable and such to think of those things.

And Paul says then also the things which I

lack of anxiety.

Something that takes place for somebody who has

who has been thankful

to God and obedient to the commands of God and

otherwise living the way a Christian should.

So the lack of anxiety.

Not the I can

provide to somebody what we are doing

is we are seeking to train people.

Religious in short to

as intensive discipleship training

should be doing in the book of somebody who's in a personal

conversation where you have a chance for them to ask questions to clarify what it is that they are doing

to give them Encouragement or rebuke that is tailored to the place with this particular person is

but in substance in a lot of it.

It's really not different than what they're doing at the in the pulpit you would ask that at the beginning.

You know certain pastors are thinking I should just preach and I should give up on counseling.

Well, if they're going to do that.

Then they have to give up on preaching also because the things that they should be doing in Counseling are

the same things they should be doing and the things they're doing in the pulpit are the sorts of things

they should be Doing when they're counseling individually when you realize that we're not doing therapy

providing and like a Christian.

It should provide some clarity to whether we should do this or not.

Does that make sense Chris?

Oh, yeah, definitely.

In fact unless you haven't finished concluding with that thread of thought we do have a

Number of listeners waiting to ask questions, and if you are free, I would ask the first one that has

come through.

Why don't you will just go ahead and do that?

So and the point by the way the point I wanted to make there is and I will get to the question.

But I wanted you to know why that's important overall to the question.

Biblical ministry and the law.

That and there's a number of different particular issues that come up in counseling that we address in the

book.

And I think I need to make something clear here.

I get absolutely no money from the book neither does Dale.

So we're not.

I'm not making any money by doing this.

So finance this is for the blessing of the church.

The money is all being donated to a CBC so neither one of us are getting anything from this

and.

But when it comes to the issue about can I go ahead and ask the Christian without getting in trouble.

The safest way to do that is to be making it as clear as possible that I'm not doing counseling in the

in terms of Doing psychotherapy, but rather that I'm giving instruction and being a Christian, but other than that I would be more than happy to take

whatever questions you have.

Great, and I'm sure you would agree before I ask the question that there would be absolutely nothing

wrong if you were receiving financial benefits from the publishing of this

book as many Christian authors Make a substantial part of their living that way.

It's just that you have chosen chosen not to do that.

No, it's worthy of a tire and I completely

agree on that particular point but on this particular because I You know, I sell my words in my met

my talking and all the rest.

As an attorney and as professor, so I certainly expect to get paid for the work but on this particular

occasion Dale and I were both very concerned about this work getting done in the importance

of it and so we both have effectively volunteered our time and It's been a substantial amount of

time as have all the individual authors in this book.

All of them have Effectively volunteered their time.

So this was a labor of love where all of the Various

professionals because these people all spoke about their professional capacities because we Because we all believe in

the importance of this topic for the church and just her concern for the protection of the church general.

Okay, we have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York.

Who says when someone is looking for a biblical counselor?

When one cannot be found in the congregation where they are a member, isn't it?

Very careful.

I'm sorry, isn't it important to be very careful that they seek a

biblical counselor?

And not necessarily one that is labeled a Christian counselor, isn't there

often a difference between.

The way that people identify themselves as counselors.

Because in this day and age even someone calling themselves a Christian counselor Can be

guilty of teaching and counseling using absolutely bizarre and unbiblical

ideology.

Yes.

Typically that means that they are a licensed professional counselor of some sort.

So in the state of California, for instance, somebody can be a licensed vocational social worker or a marriage and

family therapist.

There's a few different designations about what you are to be a.

You are permitted to use whatever

school or authority you want for purposes of that so you can be

a Therapist and I can be here in the city of Los Angeles I can find people who use tarot

cards witchcraft Hinduism Islam.

In addition to using cognitive behavioral therapy or Freudian psychology or Jungian or Adlerian

or whatnot.

So all the person is saying is that I Could be little more perhaps

than I'm a Christian who is a therapist.

The other problem with this is is that if you are somebody functioning under a state

licensure You are required within the

scope.

State is requiring you to say so the state has certain Limitations

on what can be said and not said and that really is causing problems for Christians who are

licensed therapists.

To be able to counsel somebody for instance saying like I'd like to counsel you for the reduction of same -sex

attraction.

That's becoming very difficult.

I believe that that is an infringement upon their First Amendment Right both the speech and to

religion and quite problematic and it's causing a great deal of grief for some Christians who are in that position.

The other part of it is is that merely saying that I'm a Christian therapist of some sort of Christian counselor.

That doesn't require them to do much of anything else.

The terms of what they're allowed to do and not do are set more by the state than by their

Christianity and I've seen a number of instances where I've had people Who have gone to

see a Christian therapist at in fact, I had to give you an example of a pretty egregious example.

I knew of a situation where there were two people who were within the church.

They're both professing to be Christian.

In fact, in fact, I don't want to cut you off during an important part of that that

story.

So we're going to go to our midway break first and then when we return we'll have you continue that story if you don't mind.

And if anybody as I said has any questions for Ed wild our email address is Chris Arnson at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Please be patient as this midway break is always a bit longer than the others.

It's out of necessity necessity to comply with the FCC regulations that grace life

radio of Lake City, Florida Must to which they must comply to

localize this program To Lake City, Florida geographically, so please be patient.

Don't go away.

We will be right back with Ed wild right after these messages.

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To my guest today Ed Wilde co -editor of legal issues and biblical counseling direction

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Wild on legal issues on biblical counseling.

Our Email address again is Chris Arnson at gmail .com and right before the midway break Ed You are

beginning to tell us a story that was quite disturbing in regard to a counseling session.

Yes, there was.

We had a situation where there was

one of the members was

Found to be involved in it.

The wife had brought them to the pastor in the church who was giving them

counsel.

The husband their Christian counselor

said not so

fast.

We don't want to be upsetting here.

Why don't we see if there's some way we can work something out and take a little bit of time?

Before yeah.

They came up was, you know.

Basically, is there a difference between going to see somebody who a person being a

biblical many very faithful people.

Licensed.

I don't want to approach hate with an overly broad brush.

But the fact of the matter is just certification

that you would factor.

I think might be the right answer.

Well a Bobby in Hartsdale, New York.

Thank you for the question that evoked that story and If you give

us your full name and mailing address in Hartsdale, New York, you will receive

compliments of New Growth Press and Compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service a free

copy of legal issues and biblical counseling Direction and help for churches and counselors

edited by my guest today Edward Charles Wilde and also T Dale Johnson Jr.

And we thank New Growth Press for their generosity in providing for us a limited number of copies

for listeners who submit questions today.

And we also have someone who is using

an alias obviously.

We have lamb lamb, I don't know why it was required to have lamb twice

in this alias.

Lamb lamb from Valley Stream, New York.

And lamb lamb says.

I am so excited to hear about the book.

Dr Wilde has written bringing awareness and help to the church in the spare of

biblical counseling.

Thank you.

Can dr. Wilde clarify that to prevent this potential danger?

About lawsuits the counselor has to put out the disclaimer about the

Advice and help to be given will be based on the Bible and Christian

Christianity belief or should the counselor Have some knowledge of

the law.

Thank you for this talk with dr. Wilde brother Chris.

Okay, the answer that question is a lot of the

book Discusses that particular

along the lines of what we talked about at the beginning of this, but there's also

an of an intake form Which we suggest that you

use when Having a biblical counseling ministry and in that form We

explain what we do and we don't do now.

Since the law can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

It would always be wise to have somebody in your particular state who's an attorney read it over to make sure that it

meets your state or your county because There's a number of jurisdictions within the state of the United

within the United States that control that.

But one of the things that we have in there is we make very plain that we are providing Biblical instruction how to live as a

Christian and we're not providing psychotherapy.

We're also not providing a number of other things.

We're not giving you Legal advice not giving financial advice.

We're not going to come over and fix the plumbing in your house.

There's a number of things That we're not going to be

doing for you when we're doing this.

So it's really important to make that clear.

So the counselor should not only say that but one of the things that we suggest you do is that you

have them to fill out the form where they Have going to

do and not do in the counseling situation.

Second question.

Yes.

There's a number.

In fact, one of the things we didn't talk about at the beginning was There's about four different places.

You're involved in that you

need to have some area of the law or at the very least You need to know that you need to have the

help of somebody Who understands the law so having a relationship with an attorney those briefly

give you the four basic areas?

One area that you're going to need to have knowledge of the law.

Involves things that we would we can put in the context of business.

Chris you were talking earlier about the fact that.

You know what?

I've made mention that on this particular book Dale and I aren't being paid for it.

The money's being donated to ACBC.

But a number of Christian authors make a living by doing that and they absolutely should I think that's a good thing.

If you're going to be running a ministry, you know.

You're talking about the fact that you had to give a particular announcement so that you could meet

FTC requirements and also so that You could make a living, you

know, you're trying to run this radio show.

It takes a lot of work.

It takes a lot of money and you have advertisers who come on it.

All those sorts of things are important if we're going to have a church.

You're going to need to have a building.

You're going to have insurance.

Somebody's gonna have to either pay rent in that building or purchase that in building.

You're going to have employees.

You're gonna have former employees.

You're gonna have to hire people.

There's a great many places that a Christian ministry is going to be involved with that are simply business

kinds of questions.

And if you're going to do this need to know what is requirement?

What is required to meet the requirements for having a business if your church is a religious nonprofit or you

have a counseling ministry.

That's an LLC.

What do you need to do to qualify in your state?

How do you pay taxes on this?

What sorts of taxes do you need to pay and not pay and so on?

So that's one general area that the knowledge of how a business should work.

Second big area is that counselees themselves are going to be involved with the law.

So for instance the class they teach here at Masters University for the graduate students in counseling in the law.

We spent a great deal of time talking about what happens to people when they become involved in the legal system

counselees.

We're going to be dealing with people in Christian ministry who have gone to jail.

So, how do we go and minister somebody in jail?

So I had a very dear friend Frank Mastro Leonardo who is the chaplain for the Los Angeles County Jail System and he came

in and spent time with my students explaining to them.

How do you get into the jail, how do you do this?

You have a counseling ministry by the way in your church or in your area.

Is there anybody ministering to the people in prison there?

The people in prison need Jesus and they're very often quite anxious to hear that.

We have a young man who is at the master seminary now who became a Christian in jail.

He's been living on the street got arrested went to prison and is now going to be a pastor.

Praise God.

It's a wonderful story his wife was living on the street in fact.

The fact that he became arrested led to his salvation which led to his wife getting off the street.

So that the baby that he didn't know that he was going to have to be born in a safe place.

They both became Christians.

It's just one of the most wonderful stories.

I know it that's definitely a Romans 828 story.

In fact, if you could put me in touch with him later, I would love to interview him.

Another one of my former students who deals with women involved in domestic with women who've been

trapped.

You might have that person as your counselee.

How do you walk them through the legal system.

Because there's enormous pressures or.

Single mothers who find themselves in divorces or people being bankrupt.

So understanding how the legal system Affects the people who are in our ministry

is another aspect of it.

And then there's two sets of issues that involve the counselor as counselor and how to protect yourself.

One area is how does the counselor protect themselves from the counselee and.

That's sort of what the question specifically went to.

We discussed that in the book one of the ways of doing that is by the counseling intake form which

make where we make Very clear what we're going to do and not do.

In the final area.

Which is where a lot of people first think of the relationship between counseling and the law is the

relationship between church and state.

What is the government going to say about what I'm doing?

You have the question earlier about you know, should we just do preaching and not do counseling.

And.

We actually get questions into ACBC a lot of times.

They get filtered over to me when they're legal questions.

And so we had a church in one location who was wondering maybe we should just stop doing counseling at all.

Because it's a potential legal liability, you know, the counselee suing us or the state coming after us and

unfortunately I don't know that forever.

We're going to be free from the state coming after us.

There are certainly people who are in the state that want to go after that.

We could talk a little bit about that.

But the other part of it is is that the best protection we have for doing that is by being very clear.

That we're engaged in religious activity.

We're not doing therapy.

That's one of the reasons that I belabor the point at the beginning of this podcast.

Was this the distinction between what we do in town or biblical

soul care or biblical directive ministry of some sort and What a licensed therapist would do.

I Have a question.

You may be too young to remember this.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm way too old Chris.

I'm 60 years of age.

Oh, that's how old I am.

We remember the world that it used to be different.

Well, this actually is an incident that took place and I can't remember exactly when but I think it was in

the late 80s or early 90s.

Perhaps you may remember hearing about this because I think it made Nationwide news

but there was a woman who attended a Congregation in what is known

as the Church of Christ.

They have also been known as a restorationist movement Church.

Pejoratively they have been called Campbell lights and The Church of Christ, they're not all the same

because they have in common.

One of a couple of the things they have in common with Baptists is they strongly believe in local church

autonomy and independence and they have a

authority structure where the only One outside of the local churches

elders that have authority in that church are God himself in his word.

So that's where they have a commonality with Baptists.

But.

Many of those within that movement many of the churches do not even believe in

the concept of church membership.

They also have such a radical position typically on only using the

Bible That you will rarely find one that Officially has a

confession of faith And or a constitution and that got this

Church of Christ in trouble.

When this woman who was Discovered was an adulteress she refused to

repent and When she refused to repent the church made her sin

public knowledge.

She was excommunicated and she sued that congregation because she said I wasn't even a

member of that church.

They had no business doing that.

They had no business telling people my my personal private

Activities and there was nothing in the there was no Constitution that mentioned anything

about this prohibition so I Can't remember if

you are familiar with the story.

I can't remember whether or not this woman won her lawsuit.

I think she may have.

But does is this a lesson to be learned about churches and how detailed they need to be

In regard to statements of faith whether they call it a creed or a confession At

least has some kind of a constitution whatever you call it.

So it's very clear where you are coming from and what the responsibilities of members are.

You are actually one of

those and less a

couple

of things.

There is a very useful thing for a

number of reasons and If you just want to be self -service, let me

give you an example.

Watching one another they're going to end up in jail.

Unless they're both boxers.

Because they've entered into an agree that it's legal for them to hit one another as hard as

they can and try to give the other man a concussion.

Any other place than a boxing ring that would result in jail time for both of them.

So we're allowed to do things to one another if we have a contract which allows

us to engage in this behavior.

That's why we can have baseball matches and football matches, you know.

Normally a giant man tackling another man would be a crime, but instead it's going to be you know on

Saturday afternoon.

We're going to watch college football teams do this one another and we're going to cheer.

So in other words my church should stop tackling people as a part of church discipline.

I'm.

Say that I'm going

to be a member of this church and this is what we do and this is what we uphold.

You agree to that other things that I would recommend that the church do.

I would recommend that the church Not only have formal membership in this regard in

there for having very in the church

bylaws or the Constitution someplace.

Where you describe the disciplinary process and how that will work?

So I when I was on staff at the church.

One of the things that I made sure was quip was that if somebody had been involved and

formally involved in the dip the disciplinary Process they wouldn't be able to resign until that

was completed after we had made clear.

We're instituting a formal investigation into this.

That the church preach on this at least once a year.

So it's not only just clear but that the church have a clear Proof that it

has been regularly teaching on this particular process and why it is and

that In the intake form of the that's in the book We have a discussion in there

about the fact that the information that we obtain in counseling Might be necessary to

disclose to the church as part of it.

Just one of things I need to make clear too is that if we find out somebody.

If some if you find out in a church somebody's committing a crime against a child.

You report that to the police right away.

I think that that goes without saying and we have that in there that we may need to Report to the police if there's

a child being hurt in some way.

So if we find out that a child is being sexually abused.

We're going to be making a call the police.

We make that clear in the intake form and That's something that I just think has to be a matter of course

aren't set up to investigate crimes.

And we certainly don't want to run interference for people who are committing crime.

By the way, I forgot to tell I think Bobby in Hartsdale, New York and Lam

Lam and Valley Stream, New York that you have each one a free copy of legal issues and

biblical counseling Co -edited by my guest today.

Compliments of New Growth Press and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV

BBS.

Calm.

Who will be shipping the books out to you at no charge to you or to iron sharpens iron radio?

You have to give us obviously your full names and mailing addresses for us to do that.

Let's see here.

We have Joseph in South Central,

Pennsylvania.

Joseph and South Central, Pennsylvania.

Asks are there any states in the United States that currently have reached the point?

Where a person is likely to win a lawsuit if they do not.

Like the way they have been counseled or disciplined in regard to sexual

activity or a host of other reasons that the left would want to defend them

to Continue practicing.

That would be

if you were in the context of doing Counseling or choose me if you're in the context of doing

psychotherapy in this state.

Then yeah.

That would be something which may actually be the case in just about every state that such a thing

could arise.

How would they be likely to win a lawsuit like that though?

I mean that the person complained.

Licensed therapist in that state and somebody came in and wanted counseling

the.

And they came in and said you

can't do that because that contravenes religion and what?

Is the truth on that they could very likely

be speaking?

Has undertaken this.

Understanding of human beings that accords effectively with that Freudian discussion we had at the

beginning.

So for instance a few years ago There was the Obergefell decision where the United States Supreme Court found a

constitutional right to homosexual marriage.

That right really wasn't grant.

It wasn't grounded in any history of the law the words of the Constitution in any Anglo

-american tradition of the law or Liberty.

It was grounded almost solely in a very modern understanding of human psychology

that runs along the lines that I Listed at the beginning where human beings have desires the

desires are not bad.

They're merely prescribed by people who are bigots and therefore we need to make you feel good about them and therefore any

sort of restriction on Sexual activity at least at the moment.

I'm between adults is a bad thing.

So we have the law actually very favorable towards any sexual conduct between adults and

quite the culture is.

Pointing where the law is going to go because the law and the culture are going to remain roughly in step with one another.

The law moves more slowly because it takes a little bit more work for the law to change.

Yes, there's a number of places where somebody who if they were a licensed therapist could get reason

why?

The counseling given in the context of religious instruction the First

Amendment protects the freedom of religion and religion includes

the way we conduct our life.

So recently if we go back a hundred years ago in the United States.

And there were three men who worked together in a bakery and one was a Jew and one was a Roman Catholic and one was a

Presbyterian.

Although they had different religious practices to varying degrees on Saturday or Sunday come Monday

morning.

Their ethical life would be remarkably similar.

They'd have the same understanding of what marriage is about how human beings are supposed to comport themselves.

Paying their taxes and all the rest.

So there really wasn't any difficulty when our religious practice outside of Sunday

morning or Saturday if you were Jew Would differ.

However, we've reached the place where people are trying to argue that we should have freedom of worship.

But not really freedom of religion and what that would mean is this.

Freedom of worship is whatever you want to do in your religious house as soon as you close the door.

None of us know what you're doing.

So the state wouldn't care if you're Trinitarian or Aryan or you want to worship the devil.

We really couldn't care less whether you offer incense or don't offer incense or wear robes or

don't wear robes.

None of that is our business.

You open the doors and you come outside.

The state can start to regulate what you are allowed to do and not do.

Freedom of religion would say the way that we conduct our lives on Monday morning is as much part of

my religious Obligation is the way that I worship on Sunday morning.

In fact part of my worship is how I treat my wife and being chaste and how I treat my children and all the rest.

So we do want to make it plain that we're giving religious instruction and part of our instruction is how we conduct our life

at present.

Plainly and unambiguously legal excuse me religious instruction is still protected by

the law for speech and Religion if we are being

very the laws will change so the

Christians feel the therapy are permitted to give.

Remain a matter of some judge

striking down the laws in a number of states.

Somebody who's in pastoral ministry a pastor is

giving what effectively amounts to doing therapy.

They're trying to do therapy.

They're using clinical therapeutic techniques.

They're describing what they're doing in terms of doing therapy and they think of themselves as doing that.

And so we have somebody now practicing psychotherapy without a license and They'll be

violating the laws.

Governing what is allowed to be done and not being done in psychotherapy.

So a Perilous pastor is likely to be somebody who's going to cause this problem by not

understanding that the goal to create Disciples and if we stay

there and we create disciples and we're very clear about that.

We have to be the case forever

troubling things coming up in the law in that area and.

Joseph South Central, Pennsylvania, you have also won legal issues in biblical counseling and

please give us your full name and mailing address and Cv bbs .com will ship that

out to you.

And once again We thank new growth press for their generosity and providing us these copies.

Let me take this time to make an announcement.

I would ask all of you who have won and will win a copy of the

of this book.

That when you're finished with it or even right away please give it to one of the elders

of your church or a deacon who may be involved in a very

important decision -making.

Or a biblical counselor in your church so that it can be of best use.

And I'm not saying that quote -quote Layman or ordinary Christians in the church are not

valuable.

Don't get me wrong.

But this is a very unique book and I'm asking you to please pass it on to those who could

use it best.

We have an anonymous listener Who says is there a difference when it

comes to being vulnerable to a lawsuit?

Between a biblical counselor and a church who is only counseling members of the church

and is doing that for free and a biblical counselor who is actually setting up an

office in or outside of a church and seeing people from the community

whether they are Christians or not or whether they are members of that specific church or not and charging for

the services.

Good question.

Nothing in the law ever topics that we address some

links in the book.

What we want to do is we want the

Christian to be

a Christian who's Engaged

into

somebody from the government may be

willing to so

we have a number of things.

You know, you need to have a

madness about every you do need to be licensed and

They really don't care if you use the

Bible and they don't distinguish between Psychotherapist who may reference the Bible verse

and psychotherapist who may reference tarot cards.

They're perfectly comfortable with both of them provided that the psychotherapist does and says

the sorts of things the state Approves

seeing only members of the

church who's taking money for it and has a standalone ministry.

Absolutely, they can still be doing Christian ministry.

There's no question that Christian ministry can look at like that.

Like you brought up earlier Chris It's perfectly appropriate for Christians to be paid for writing books and

giving talks and all the rest.

Those are valuable things we pay for people to do talking and writing and other circumstances.

There's certainly no reason the Christian should not be paid for that.

So being paid for giving religious instruction is appropriate.

We pay our pastors to give religious instruction and to

see and you're taking money and you're seeing people who aren't in the church.

You're going to have to be even more clear of what you are doing and not

doing.

You're going to have to emphasize the distinction between You being a biblical

counselor and strutting people and how to live and act as a Christian.

Versus what a psychotherapist might do you can do it.

You're just going to have to realize that you need to be even clearer About what is the

nature of your work and what is the end of your work?

Does that make sense?

Chris?

Oh, absolutely and.

A Questioner from earlier who used the alias lamb lamb Lamb lamb

asked did I miss some two of the four points that dr Ed Wilde

was giving about the knowledge of the law for counselors.

I don't know that maybe you'd know.

Did you.

Did I stop you from continuing on a thread there?

I don't think if they are so I'll just repeat them because it is important and these are some of the things we talked about in the book

one.

Every Christian ministry is going to function like a business at some

employees all the rest.

That's going to be something you need to know to.

People involved in church ministry to others need to be aware of how the law is going to affect the person to

whom they are.

Ministering.

You're going to minister people in jail people who've been bankrupt people getting divorced.

So that's another place where the law interacts with Christian ministry.

Understanding that process will allow you to be a good counselor to be properly sympathetic.

I know it's a practical matter how to help the people when you understand the difficulty of divorce and you know,

and I'm talking You will be Understanding about how the church may need to provide help for

taking care of children or financial support or some such.

There are issues where number three the counselee versus the counselor.

Unfortunately, sometimes people are going to sue

their counselor.

We regulate that relationship.

We'll do what their duties there and finally number

for the relationship between church and state.

What is the state going to be doing to us?

How do we know how to live with that?

How do we respond to those difficulties?

That would be the four areas business counselee in the law.

Counselee versus counselor.

Government versus counselor.

Great, and we are going to our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question, send it in immediately to Chris Arnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with it.

While.

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We are now back with Ed Wild and we are continuing our discussion on

legal issues and biblical counseling and We have an anonymous listener who

asks.

You probably recall Anita Bryant who in the 1970s

had her acting and modeling career destroyed because she became an

outspoken advocate for Christian schools to have the liberty to hire

Christian employees and to not hire those that were involved in homosexual

activity.

How much of a danger is a church in today when they refuse to

either?

Maintain the employment of somebody who is discovered to be a active unrepentant

homosexual or refuses to hire one.

Okay, that goes

again to the

nature of was

expected to be able

if somebody just showed up.

Let's say that perch and the only person who's there happens to be

somebody who works as a janitor.

We'd want that janitor to be able to sit down with the person.

Give them the gospel pray with them because they walk into a church.

So we expect the janitor and believe me I have nothing bad to say about janitors.

We would not get along in the world without them, but I was trying to figure somebody who's at a church who has the least

obviously Religious occupation there.

I would expect every person who works in the administration of the church to be able to pray with somebody to

Be able to sit down and read the Bible.

The church is making very plain that we expect everybody who's on the property of this church

to also function In a ministry capacity that it's appropriateacity

be an element of

church secretaries or to be janitors or You.

Know any other function of the church even musicians who are involved in the very worship of God.

I know churches that hire and pay Non -believers to sing perform

instruments, and I just think that is absolutely horrendous.

It was acting like that.

Yeah, the church is because if the church is just thinking like well You know like let's say that I pick

somebody to work in the church and the administration is the bookkeeper for the church and he's

an adulterer, but I Will allow him to continue on if he's an

adulterer, but when I found out he's homosexual I fire him.

You're just picking what sins you find acceptable or not that that's not the way a church can function so.

Make everybody a minister, and then you don't have to worry about it.

And I'm assuming that you're saying that you know they're not actually given an office as a minister

or you're just.

Not at all.

But we expect everybody who is working for the church to be able to do just basic

Elements of church ministry praying for people reading with them all the rest.

I don't mean elevating everybody to being an elder in the church or some official pastor.

You're right.

Thank you for catching me on that great.

Well, that's a very Extremely important piece of advice for people that

might not have ever thought of that before because to tell you the truth I never thought of that either.

But thank you anonymous and anonymous you have won a free copy of legal issues and biblical

counseling.

Thanks to our friends at new growth press and thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service

CV BBS Calm will be shipping it out to you at no cost to you or to iron

sharpens iron radio.

Let's see we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York and

CJ says what do you think?

Qualifications should be put into place Before someone in leadership in a church

will recognize someone as a biblical counselor and give them that

activity and role to be responsible for.

CBC it's not the only biblical counselor.

I think it's important that people who are going to be involved in short formal church ministry

have appropriate and adequate Education and understanding of what they're doing.

If we have somebody who has a poor education in Christian theology for

instance in the pulpit It's possible that that person can inadvertently take positions

about which are Contrary to what Christians

believe they can accidentally if you will say something about the nature of God or the nature of

Christ.

You know given we get things begin with the Trinity which can be very difficult to discuss.

And so not because they want to be a heretic, but because they're poorly educated they have a problem.

We wouldn't let somebody I have a friend of mine who's a North Carolina. Who's just opening up a car

repair shop and He's being very careful to find men or women to do the work who have

education and how to repair a car.

We should have at least as much concern with people who are dealing with the human soul

and things as critical as The Bible that they have a proper and full

understanding of such things as we do with somebody who would work on a car or I had somebody come out to take a look at what my

washing machine the other day because I'm not mechanical the man had better experience and education that I didn't he could

tell me what I needed to do.

So we should take Human souls and the gospel as seriously as we take washing machines and dryers.

Well, I know that you have to leave a little bit early.

So I want you to now summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our

listeners regarding the topic of your.

Absolutely invaluable book.

Need to know about the law, but it is

a great and any aspect

Interacts with the law because it's a place or interacting with the government.

It's unavoidable.

I've known too many Christian ministers and people in church leadership.

Who believe that trying to be careful of such things and understand such things?

He is not.

It's completely appropriate to understand how this work.

Understand how anything else going on in your church works.

If you need to fix the lighting in your church you hired an electrician.

It's appropriate to know these things and Since the culture is running so contrary to what we want

to do It's necessary for us to be even more careful in these matters than perhaps we needed to be usual

Previously states.

I hope that we can do more

on it.

I also want to end with saying thank you to Masters University.

They gave me a very nice place to conduct this interview.

I would not be interrupted.

I want to say thank you to my law partner Michael obering because he was very

generous and saying like, you know It's worth our time for me to take a couple hours out of our workday for me to do this.

I'm gonna say thank you to you Chris to all the people who participated and I hope that this has

been a blessing to you and to the rest of the people.

Well, I know it's been a blessing to me and I'm quite confident.

It's been blessing to everybody who's listened.

I want to give your website for digital media law.

It's digital media law calm.

Digital media law calm.

Do you have any other contact information that you cater share?

Okay.

Yeah, that would be.

In fact if the person wants to find me if you just go to the California bar website, it has my

Telephone it has you know has my contact information on there.

If somebody wants to contact me if you want to ask me about the law in Texas or Oklahoma I probably can't help a whole bunch because

I'm not a lawyer there.

ADF is a great resource if you need something in particular about First Amendment work.

My partner and I do do First Amendment work and we can appear in federal courts around the country if that would be something that would be

useful and.

And thank you for the opportunity of speaking with the people in your audience Chris.

I really do appreciate it.

You've been very generous and kind.

Oh my pleasure.

And just so our listeners know when they're searching for you.

My guest's name is Edward C. Wilde and that is spelled with an e at the end.

Thank you so much Ed and I look forward to having you back on the program soon and frequently

God willing.

Well, if that's going to depend upon you so.

But thank you very much.

I hope that someday that I can come back myself.

Oh great.

Well, I will.

I will send you out a calendar of dates.

Great.

Thank you much.

Well, I want to thank everybody who listened today and I want to remind you All

of a couple of things.

Please if you are interested in purchasing jewelry or having custom -designed jewelry for the

Christmas season for a loved one or perhaps yourself, please go to royal diadem

calm royal diadem calm and Mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnson of iron

sharpens iron radio so that we can receive 100 of the profits from that sale.

Again, thank you all of you for listening, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior.

Then you are a sinner.