October 11, 2019 Show with Jeremy Vuolo on “God’s Plan & Purpose for Worship”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this gorgeous fall day,

October 11th, 2019, at least it's a gorgeous fall day in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and I am so thrilled to have back a returning guest who

I love interviewing, I love sharing fellowship with this brother, and this brother is just such a blessing to me and I thank everybody who gets to meet and know him.

His name is Jeremy Volo, he's the husband to Ginger Volo, one of the nineteen siblings in the

Duggar family, he's a former pro soccer player for the San Antonio Scorpions and formerly pastoring in Laredo, Texas, on the border of Mexico, now studying at the

Master's Seminary in Los Angeles, California, and conference speaker at the upcoming

G3 Conference, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back again for another interview,

Jeremy Volo. Hey Chris, thank you so much for having me, it's always a joy and a pleasure to be on air with you and to see you at the conference every year as well.

Amen, and how many times have you preached at the G3 Conference? I've preached twice this upcoming

January, and I don't know what just happened, but you got a little garble -y there, so try to keep your mouth,

I guess, as close to the mouthpiece of whatever you're speaking into as possible. Will do.

Yeah, so this upcoming January will be my third time speaking there. Great. And this

January 16th through the 18th, 2020, will be on the theme,

Worship Matters, and today we're going to be discussing with Jeremy Volo, God's Plan and Purpose for Worship.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Jeremy on worship, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, that's

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com, and please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I can see this subject of worship actually lending itself for people wanting to remain anonymous, because sadly, it probably has, in fact

I know it has for centuries, been a bone of contention amongst brothers and sisters in Christ, the subject of worship, because there are opinions and beliefs and practices that vary widely, and there are even, tragically, church splits that occur over this subject.

So I can understand someone, if they have a controversial opinion, or they disagree with their own pastor, they disagree with their own congregation, or they're a pastor who disagrees with their own denomination, perhaps, or the other elders on the board,

I can understand, obviously, them wanting to remain anonymous, but if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. So, before we go into God's plan and purpose for worship, and before we go into more about the

G3 Conference, we will give you a lot more details on this conference than we've already mentioned throughout this program, but you just had a fairly remarkable experience pastoring in Laredo, Texas, on the border of Mexico, and not only did you have some extraordinary experiences there, you made a extraordinary decision that many folks in your position would not have made, you made the decision to leave the pastorate of a very successful and growing church that just had the opportunity to buy a facility that was valued at nearly a million dollars for less than $100 ,000, and you decided to, in good terms, obviously, leave that congregation and your position as pastor to return to school, and in this case, to seminary where you are studying at the

Master's Seminary, the seminary founded by John MacArthur and Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California.

But if you could, before you reach the point of believing, along with your wife, Ginger, that God was calling you into seminary before any future calls to the pastorate, tell us about your experiences at that church in Laredo and some of the remarkable salvation stories that you can recite.

Yeah, so it was very interesting to look back and see how

God, first of all, brought me as a single man to Laredo to pastor the church, and then

I got married and my wife came down and then we had a little child who was born in Texas and was there when

I was pastoring, and just looking back and seeing all of God's providential dealings through that time has been remarkable.

When I went down in 2014 to Laredo, Texas, it was a small church plant of a church from San Antonio, and the pastor there asked me to oversee the work, and so that's what

I began to do. At the time, it was around 12 people meeting in a living room of a home, and when

I first went down, I was just committed to do what I think every pastor, every preacher is commissioned to do, and that's to faithfully shepherd the people by one of the primary means of grace, which is the exposition and faithful preaching of the

Word. And so with 12 people, I went down with another young man as well,

Dee Coleman, who eight months later or so determined it wasn't the place for him in ministry at the time, but we had a wonderful time serving together and just preaching the

Word to that small fledgling church plant. And over the years, God just did remarkable things, and we saw wonderful growth.

It's interesting, Chris, as an encouragement to others who may be church planting or pastoring in small places, for the first two years or so, just week in, week out, preaching

God's Word, we actually saw some initial growth, but then we had some very discouraging moments where people joined the church, and then instead of being helpful members serving the body, they were divisive and left and brought others with them, that sort of thing.

So there were discouragements along the way, but we were committed, and I as the pastor, to just faithfully preaching the

Word of God week in and week out, trusting that He would call His sheep as we evangelized in the neighborhood and sought to serve and love the community around us and preach

God's Word. So we began to see growth in the community, and it was actually in 2017 that we doubled in size.

At that time, we were around 22 people, and we actually doubled in size, which was tremendous, and God opened up opportunities across the border in Mexico.

One of the remarkable stories, which I often like to share justifying of God's grace, was there was a very violent

Hispanic gang concentrated in Laredo as well throughout the rest of America, but the leader of that gang, about three years ago, his wife began attending our church while he was still locked up in prison, but soon to get out, and she began attending the church and would attend for about six months, off and on.

When he got out, he started attending as well, off and on, but was very hardened to the Gospel.

Until one day, she gave up her sin and she turned to Christ and was saved.

And that was a glorious moment of salvation to see this woman, the wife of the gang leader there in Laredo, converted.

And so that led us for the next year or so to begin praying for her husband, and it just seemed like a hopeless situation.

But around a year and a few months after her conversion, he actually went back to jail for a short time, and while he was in jail, he was professing to be a

Christian. And so I had been meeting with him before he had gotten locked up, and I met with him a couple of days after he was released, thinking it was sort of the same old profession.

That wasn't really genuine, but just a show. Well, it turns out the Lord had radically converted this man.

His name is George. And he immediately left the gang he was involved with.

God miraculously allowed him to leave without a scratch on his body, which was wonderful. But the remarkable thing,

Chris, as you look at those two conversions, which is just stunning in itself, any act of regeneration by the

Spirit of God is the greatest miracle we can experience in this world. But the man who took

George's place as the leader of the gang, just this last

November, was himself converted. Wow. Just a remarkable story of God's grace.

And the weekend he was converted, it's actually a pretty remarkable story, just what

God did that weekend. It was actually Anthony Mathenia, who I know is a friend of yours.

Yes. He was actually preaching there in Laredo, and it was that Sunday that George was very discouraged about his friend,

Hector. He had been working with and ministering to Hector, who was still involved in the gang, leading the gang, and George just was discouraged and actually told his wife that he felt like it was a hopeless situation, there was no way

Hector could be saved. And that Sunday morning, Anthony preached on the conversion of Paul, and obviously in that message there was an emphasis on God's grace being able to save anyone.

And I'll never forget it, literally right after that first message, it was in the

Sunday school hour, that Anthony preached on Paul's conversion. Hector walked through the doors and urgently wanted to talk with me.

And he told George, he told me, he told Anthony, that he was putting down his crown to pick up Christ's cross, and he was leaving his life of gang life, and he was going to follow

Christ. And that day he was converted, and it's been remarkable to see the growth in all of their lives since that time.

Well, when a gang leader asks you or tells you, I have an urgent need to speak with you, what goes on with your heart rate and the amount of sweating that you might be doing?

Well, I had known Hector for some time through George's influence, and had spoken with him, and he had actually come and sat under the preaching a couple of times.

It was really funny. There was one time I was closing a sermon, and I had three points to make.

I essentially said, I was preaching through John, and every section of John really puts the hearer,

John's Gospel, on the horns of a dilemma. You've got to make a decision. And I said to the congregation,

I said, there are three kinds of people here today. There are those who know they need

Christ, but can't be bothered with it, and I moved on with the application. And he starts elbowing

George, sitting next to him, and says, man, you told him about me, didn't you? And George says, no,

I didn't tell him anything. But it was like I was calling him out in front of everyone.

And that's just what the preached word does. Yes, it does. I've seen that happen. In fact, when

I was a new believer, I was starting to wonder if the man who would become, eventually, my pastor,

I was starting to wonder, has he been listening to gossip about me? What's going on here? And I can even remember a friend of my late wife, who was visiting the church one evening,

I can remember her getting up and storming out with a furious look on her face into the parking lot.

And I left, following her into the parking lot, asking her what was wrong. And she said, somebody's been telling that pastor about me and my life.

And I said, no, that's the conviction of the Holy Spirit. He's just preaching the word. Wow. Well, the

Word of God is living and it's listening, it's active, it pierces the soul and spirit.

I mean, that's just what it does. That's what sitting under the preaching, the faithful preaching of God's Word will do.

It exposes us, whether we're lost or saved. And so when Hector asked to speak with me,

I honestly, I wasn't nervous, but I had no idea the urgency of it.

I was actually in the middle of another counseling situation that afternoon, and I was getting caught up with a lot of things.

And George just kept coming back to me saying, Hector really needs to talk to you. And so I ended up just cutting the conversation short and saying, okay,

Hector, what's going on? And he said exactly what George had said a year earlier.

I'm done with my sin. I want Christ. And so I shared the gospel with him, we prayed together, and the man is a new creation.

Praise God. Praise God. I just interviewed a brother who is serving life in prison.

It was my first interview with a guest who was actually in prison at the time of the interview.

He conducted it on the phone from prison. And his name is Ron Luff, and he is serving life plus 75 years, if I'm not mistaken.

There's no way that he will ever, barring a miracle, he'll never get out of prison, because even if he's up for parole, there's 75 more years waiting for him.

But he was in a cult, a cult that was an offshoot of the reorganized

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, which is today known as the Community of Christ. It was a breakaway group, a lot more sinister than the mainline cult is.

And he launched a family into a barn where the leader of the cult murdered them, a husband, wife, and three children.

There's even been TV specials on this incident. And so he, being an accomplice,

Ron is serving now life in prison plus 75 years. And while in prison, while in solitary confinement, he became a

Christian, because he wanted to return to the

Bible alone as his sole source of authority, rather than the Book of Mormon.

And he began reading the Bible intensely, and the Lord saved him while in solitary confinement.

And Ravi Zacharias' writings were instrumental as well.

But also, another cherry on the milkshake, or the ice cream sundae, is that he later became theologically reformed through reading

Dr. R .C. Sproul's writings. And he has written a book of his own called Faith Gone Astray, Unveiling the

Kirtland Cult Murders. Faith Gone Astray, Unveiling the Kirtland Cult Murders. That is

Ron Luff. And he has earned his doctorate degree in prison, and teaches Koine Greek classes in prison.

Oh my, that's fantastic. It's stunning to see God's grace at work, isn't it?

Oh yeah, it is truly remarkable. And so, just going back briefly to these two former gang members who were saved in prison, one of the things is that when a person is in a position like that, being a leader in a gang, they are going to be far less likely to fake a conversion because of the fact that they might be facing a death sentence from former gang members.

So this kind of thing is not something that somebody would flippantly do if they were in a gang. Oh, well, it's really interesting, actually,

Chris, that you bring that up, because, you know the debates surrounding, you know, the theological debates that we have in our ivory towers about lordship, salvation, and...

Yes, whether repentance is necessary for true salvation. Right, and so we write books, and we write dissertations, and we argue on the blogosphere.

It's interesting that there's another gentleman, along with these two men, this gentleman was actually in the cartels in Mexico, and very high up in their ranking, and when the

Lord converted him, the cartel actually told him, they said, if we see you hanging at the clubs, and hanging with the girls, and going back to your party life and all that, we will find you and we will kill you.

Wow. Because he was saying, I'm leaving because I'm a Christian, so even the cartel understands, okay, if you're going to follow

Christ, you better be the real deal, which means radical life transformation, you're a new creation, you don't do what you used to do.

Now they don't obviously articulate that theologically, but they know what it means to be a

Christian, and if they see you living as a non -Christian, they suppose you to be a non -Christian.

So they have, obviously, and you're not saying across the board, this is always true, but it seems that, at least in these circumstances, involving the cartels and so on, they seem to have some level of respect for that, where the person is not going to be automatically the subject of a hit, just because they left.

But because of the fact that they left, because of a, due to a conversion, they're putting that in a different category, you're saying.

Yeah, I'm by no means the expert on their processes.

I just know from the personal experience I've had with several gentlemen who have left, and I think it would vary from gang to gang, but there has been, especially, you know, where I was down in Mexico and on the border, a respect for following Christ.

And the two gentlemen that were in my church were involved in a specific gang that was designed, and it originated for the purpose of uplifting the

Hispanic community. And so they saw somebody being devoted to Christ as a positive for the community.

Now, within the gang ranks, there was disagreement about what to do with these gentlemen, and God was very kind in how

He dealt with them. So just from my very limited experience, it does seem like there is, at least in certain circles, a respect for those who profess to follow

Christ. And that immediately jogs my memory about a friend of mine who's now retired from active pastoral ministry,

Pete Padro. When I first met Pete, he was the pastor of the

Church of the Good Neighbor in Spanish Harlem, which was the oldest, or is the oldest,

Spanish -speaking Protestant church in North America.

And they had bilingual services. In fact, each sermon was bilingual, and I've never seen this before.

I saw Pete Padro preach in Spanish Harlem, but he would interpret his own sermon phrase by phrase.

He would preach a phrase in English and then immediately interpret it in Spanish. I've never seen that before.

But it was interesting that in this dangerous neighborhood in Spanish Harlem, you would see buildings on the left and right of the church covered with graffiti, and yet this

Church of the Good Neighbor was pristine and clean. The gangs made sure, according to Pete, that nobody messed with the

Church of the Good Neighbor, because they provided food for the community and did other things for the community, and they earned the respect of the gang leaders.

So you never saw a spot of graffiti on the building. That is very cool.

Tell us more about the growth of the church.

As I was saying in your introduction, you got this incredible building that was a godsend, something that you hardly hear of building valued at nearly a million dollars that you were able to purchase,

I believe, for less than $100 ,000. And all these things that were developing, and yet you chose, with the counseling and consultation of your bride,

Ginger, and of course prayer, you chose to leave a position that most folks probably would never leave in order to further your education at the

Master's Seminary. But if you could continue with a little bit more of that description of what was going on. Yeah, so it was very interesting what the

Lord was doing. So we were seeing conversion, we were seeing growth. We had prayed that God would bring mature believers to the

Church, and He did. We also prayed that God would bring lost sheep, those who were

His and yet in non -churches or unhealthy churches, and He did that.

And we also prayed that God would convert the lost and bring them into the fold, and He did that. So we were seeing growth.

Now, we're still a small church in Laredo, relative, but from when it began as 12 people, there's significant growth, and the kind of growth was very encouraging.

It wasn't just like the church down the road shut down so we got all their members. No, we were seeing conversion, we were seeing people starving for the

Word, we were seeing as well mature, older believers joining the midst. And so that was remarkably encouraging.

Another thing we were praying for was the opportunity to minister in the

Spanish -only speaking community. There in Laredo, it's 96 % Hispanic, though the majority in Laredo speak

English. Across the border, Nuevo Laredo, with hundreds of thousands of people, it's obviously

Spanish, and we were praying for ministry into the Spanish -speaking world.

And so, on top of the growth we were seeing, we also saw opportunity to plant a church in Nuevo Laredo.

So two groups, independent of one another, contacted us asking for help, whether that was teaching help or resources.

They had contacted us saying, hey, here we are in Nuevo Laredo, which is a very spiritually dry, spiritually dark city, and they were wanting to establish something.

And so as we got to know both of those groups independent of one another, we began meeting together and those groups together.

I began going over and having leadership meetings with the two men who were leading those other groups, and that turned into a church plant.

There's wonderful brothers in the Laredo Church who would go over every weekend and serve, whether by teaching, preaching, just serving in other ways, to see that church plant begin to grow.

They just celebrated a year this past summer of life, and I just got pictures last weekend, and the little place they meet was packed out.

It was full, nearly every seat taken, so they're seeing growth as well. And so it was just remarkably encouraging to see

God answering prayers. We would pray intentionally out of the church for very specific things, and time after time,

God answered, which really is a rebuke, personally to me, of my prayerlessness.

I see how often God answers direct, specific prayers designed to glorify

His name, and it makes me wonder why I don't pray more and pray with greater faith.

And so, God's kindness and grace in blessing the work there was just tremendous.

And I think that was signified in the building. It was just one dimension.

Obviously, Chris, you and I rejoice over the salvation of a sinner more than any building we could possibly possess.

But it was just remarkable to see that God would give us a facility where we could worship.

There was a church in town that was a Westminster Reformed Presbyterian church, and it was closing down.

It didn't have a future there, and there were several leaders of that church who were very devoted to seeing the message of that church, which was the

Reformed Biblical gospel go forth in Laredo. They didn't want to see that facility used for anything else.

And so we built a relationship with them, just in God's providence, for about a year and a half, and they approached us and said they wanted to sell us the building.

And through a long two months, felt very long of negotiation and working through things, at times it just seemed like an absolute impossibility.

We did not have the funds to give them what the building was worth, but God moved in their hearts and they graciously gave us the building for under $100 ,000, which was just absolutely stunning that they would do such a thing.

But they wanted to see the gospel go forth in power. They did not want that facility to be turned into a parking lot or a gymnasium or a community center.

They wanted the gospel preached there. And so, we were provided with that this past January, and our jaws were on the floor.

We were staggered at how God provided even those funds. Many faithful Christians from around the country generously gave to that, and it was just remarkable to see what

God did. So, like you mentioned, here God's blessing the church, the church is growing, there's encouragement after encouragement, and then

I, along with my wife, begin to feel this impress to go to the

Master's Seminary and to begin studies there. And so, it was very interesting timing that God would lay that on our hearts, and it took a lot of prayer, a lot of careful consideration.

And I can go into some of the details behind that as well, if you'd like, about how the

Lord... Definitely, definitely. In fact, what we're going to do before you do that is we are going to go to our first station break, and we are going to, don't worry folks, we are going to get to the main theme shortly,

God willing, about God's plan and purpose for worship. So be patient with us, but we will continue with this discussion with Jeremy after our first break, and once again, if anybody would like to join us on the air with questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsor.

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We are now back with Jeremy Volo, who is not only a friend of mine, but his dad is a dear friend, who is also a very generous financial supporter of Ironsharpensironradio, pastoring in Maryland.

And his mother is also a wonderful sister in Christ, who is the founder of SWAN.

If you could, before you continue with your own story there, Jeremy, about going to Master's Seminary, I don't want to forget to have you tell our listeners something about SWAN, this really unusual and wonderful ministry that your mother is the founder and president of.

Yeah, it's really a remarkable ministry that my mother's been involved in. She actually began it about eight years ago.

SWAN stands for Scaling Walls a Note at a Time, and it's a music mentoring program for children whose parents are incarcerated.

So if you go to swan4kids .org, you can learn more about it, you can become a monthly donor.

It's fantastic what they're doing to change the lives of so many children. It really is a program that should be going nationally and internationally.

The effects that music has for a child to learn music in the developmental years is just stunning.

And so these children are often overlooked, often left behind. We don't think much of them as we go about our daily lives, and what

SWAN is doing is changing that. It's trying to bring these children whose parents have been incarcerated to the forefront of our minds so that we can help them, serve them in remarkable ways.

So swan4kids .org, it's an organization that my wife and I are very passionate about and wanting to make known as well.

So do check that out if you have a moment. And let's not forget about the church where your dad pastors in Maryland.

Can you tell us something about that church? Yeah, so New Life Maryland. He's been pastoring there for, my goodness, maybe nearly eight or nine years himself now, maybe ten years.

It's a wonderful community of believers there to reform Baptist church in Maryland, not too far from Joppa, Maryland.

And so my father's also ministering amongst the Amish community and serving as pastor at New Life as well.

So he is spread all over the place, but doing wonderful work for the

Lord, for the kingdom. So I look up to my father and I hope one day to be the man he is.

But yeah, he's pastoring and shepherding in Maryland. Yes, and if anybody wants to listen to the interviews that I've conducted with both

Jeremy's dad Chuck and his mom, I interviewed

Chuck a couple of times on his work with the

Amish, fascinating interviews. And I also interviewed his mom on the

SWAN organization, the nonprofit organization that she heads. But just go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

ironsharpensironradio .com, and you click on the past shows podcast section and you type in V as in Victory, U -O -L -O.

They're the only people that have that last name that I've ever interviewed. So their interviews will come up, all of their interviews, including

Jeremy's. That's V as in Victory, U -O -L -O, and all of those will come up on the past shows podcast section and you can listen to them at your leisure and spread them for free to family, friends, and loved ones.

But let's continue now with your story about the burden that you and your wife had on your hearts to have you continue in higher education for the sake of the gospel at Master's Seminary and leave what was an ideal situation that new pastors especially crave and pray for, and you left that to what you believe the

Lord is calling you to do. Yeah, so it's an interesting direction that the

Lord had us take, and it's what a lot of men specifically have to consider when in ministry is the question of seminary.

Every man has different opportunities, different desires, and so seminary is often discussed as, is it necessary, is it not?

For me, as soon as I left my previous career as a soccer player, I was immediately asked to oversee the work in Laredo.

So unless I had gone to seminary within about five days' time, I didn't have time to fit in.

I immediately, literally the next weekend after retiring from soccer, was down in Laredo preaching and was called to be their full -time pastor sometime after that, and spent four and a half years there, pastoring week in and week out.

So I just didn't see seminary as fitting in, not because I thought it was unnecessary or unhelpful, but it just wasn't in the schedule, how

God had directed me at that point. But it was in 2017 that I actually first thought about the

Master's Seminary. My wife and I began a relationship with the Church out here,

Grace Community Church. In God's providence, we had met one of the pastors, Michael Mahoney.

He invited us out in August 2017 to actually speak at a little chapel service.

We just shared our testimonies and a little bit about what the Lord was doing in Laredo and our lives.

It was in that visit that they actually brought up attending the Master's Seminary.

And for me, it just wasn't a thought in my mind. I actually spoke with Dr. Steve Lawson that week.

I attended one of his classes, and he told me what I'd heard him tell others about seminary and whether or not to attend.

He said a couple of things. The first was, Jeremy, you don't know what you don't know. Basically saying, you don't even know what you're going to learn at seminary that you need to know.

You don't even know what you don't know. And then I'll never forget it. He said,

Charles Spurgeon never went to seminary, and Martin Lloyd -Jones never went to seminary, but for the rest of us.

And he just paused, and the point was taken. So that was in 2017.

But honestly, I just didn't see an opportunity. I was the sole pastor in Laredo, and didn't see the opportunity to uproot and go to L .A.

So it was later that winter I did begin thinking about attending seminary online.

It was a thought. It wasn't until 2018 when I was at the Shepherds Conference for the second time.

And I was meeting with a professor after the Shepherds Conference, and he brought up the opportunity of doing the

Master's Seminary online, doing some of the online courses. And so I prayed about that, and my wife and I, you know, looked through the feasibility of it, and I determined to do that.

So in fall 2018, I began taking just three courses online at the

Master's Seminary. And this was during, you know, everything I had explained earlier in the program.

The building issue was coming up, some conversions, some exciting issues with the church plant in Mexico.

So things were happening at the church, and I began studying online.

And they were just basic introductory courses in seminary, at the Master's Seminary. I was taking

Old Testament Survey I, hermeneutics, and research writing and grammar, which is just a basic grammar course.

And I realized several things. First, I realized the profundity of what seminary had to offer.

My Old Testament Survey class, which is just an intro course. Here I had a man,

Dr. Essex, teaching this course. Every week we were going through a new book of the

Bible, surveying it in one week, getting the big picture, the biblical theology, the stream of redemption.

And he's just uncovering all these glorious realities from the Old Testament. It was just mind -blowing.

Here was this man who had been a professor for decades, just pouring into the

Word and pouring himself into the Word and unveiling to the students these glorious truths.

And I just realized how profound the opportunity was to study at a place like the

Master's Seminary. And so, I wanted more. And secondly, I realized that I had a proclivity toward that.

I really enjoy studying. I want to go deeper. I want to study the languages. I want to know

Greek, Hebrew. I want to study historical and biblical theology and fundamentals of preaching and exegesis. And so,

I enjoy that. I know other men may not enjoy that so much, and so they may not really desire seminary.

And that can be fine, depending. But I had a proclivity toward it.

But the third thing I realized, Chris, was I came to recognize I could not get through four years, 96 credits worth of seminary work, and simultaneously pastor at a distance and do both well.

It would have taken me a decade to get through the classes, and I was already struggling to get through all of the responsibilities in the pastorate, counseling, teaching, preaching on Sundays, administrative things, and get my assignments done for just three basic introductory courses.

I began to realize, I'm not going to be able to do this well over the long term.

And so, at the same time, I had had several other offers to pastor in other places, and my wife and I had prayed about that, but both felt like it wasn't the place to go.

We were to stay in Laredo and to pastor. And I remember, I'll never forget,

I think it was, well, I don't actually remember the date, but I remember the conversation. I looked at my wife after discussing one of the opportunities to pastor elsewhere, and I told her, yeah,

I don't think that's where we need to be right now. She said, yeah, I agree. But then I said, I have been feeling pressed about the

Master's Seminary. And she said, yeah, me too. And when she said that, I was taken aback, because we really had not considered the possibility of leaving

Laredo. I mean, genuinely considered it. And so the fact that it was on her heart as well as mine opened the door for us to just begin praying about it.

And as we began praying, the Lord just confirmed over and over that yes, this was the direction

He was taking us. I like what Dr. Owen Strand, a good friend of mine, told me when

I was kind of in the middle of these discussions. He said, Jeremy, there are times that the

Lord opens doors of opportunity, and you see that door open and you think, okay,

I could go through that door. And then Owen says, and if you know Owen and his, you know, typical emphatic self, he says, there are other times that God jack -kicks door all day.

And you're just, you're standing before, you know, the dust in the air and the door is ripped to shreds, and it's kind of like God is saying, walk through the door.

And that's really how it was when it came to the Master's Seminary. The opportunity presented was just so clear that God wanted us to be here.

Well, if you could extend my greetings to Owen and remind him that I would love for him to return for another interview on Iron Sheriff and Zion Radio.

It's always an immense pleasure interviewing Owen. He's brilliant and very articulate and very much at home during an interview.

We have to go to our midway break right now. It's the longer than normal break, so please use this time wisely. Please be patient with us, but also please write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and more frequently patronize them, because we need their advertising dollars to exist.

And also write down the questions for our guest, Jeremy Volo, and I promise we will enter into the main theme when we return on God's plan and purpose for worship.

The email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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That's PTLBibleRebinding .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and my friend

Chris Arntzen and I are excited to be attending another G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th on a theme that is vitally important to all of us,

Worship Matters. I'll be on the speaking lineup with Eric Thomas, Joel Beakey, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson, Tom Askew, Voti Baltham, and the world -renowned preacher, teacher, and author,

John MacArthur. A fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher,

Benny Hinn. Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth and is now a

Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist in California. Come join me and Chris Arntzen at G3 2020,

January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta by registering at G3conference .com.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arntzen, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hour with a little less than an hour to go is

Jeremy Volo, who is a former San Antonio Scorpion soccer player, in addition to being a former pastor in Laredo, Texas, now dedicating his time for further his education in seminary at the

Master's Seminary in California, founded by Dr. John MacArthur and Grace Community Church of Sun Valley, California.

We are going to be addressing the theme, God's Plan and Purpose for Worship, and also giving you more details on the

G3 Conference coming up in January, where Jeremy Volo is on a very long and very impressive roster of speakers, and we'll give you all the details on how you can register.

But before we return to Jeremy, we just have a few upcoming announcements we need to make in regard to special events.

First of all, the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship is having their

Doctrines of Grace Conference, and I intend to be there. I'm looking forward to returning to my homeland, the place of my birth,

Long Island, New York, for this conference and meeting old friends, or should I say getting a time of fellowship with old friends, and also meeting new folks that I've never met before who come to the conference and perhaps come as a result of hearing these ads on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And of course, I'm looking forward to being edified at this conference, the Doctrines of Grace Conference, at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York.

It's being held November 1st and 2nd, that's a Friday and Saturday, Friday night from 7 to 9, and Saturday from 10 a .m.

to 4 p .m., and this is going to be, I think, a wonderful conference, a very informative conference on such themes as God's sovereignty, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, perseverance of the saints.

Is Calvinism biblical? In a Q &A roundtable with the speakers and the audience.

If you want more details on attending this conference, call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711, or go to the website reformedrooke .com,

reformedrooke .com, and you can also go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net, that's the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, Friday and Saturday, November 1st and 2nd, at the

Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York. And then coming up in December, the

Foundations Conference is being held in New York City. I just love spending a good part of the

Christmas season in New York City whenever possible, because I can't think of another place on the planet

Earth where I'd rather be during the Christmas season than Manhattan. And that's where they're holding the Foundations Conference, a conference of sermonaudio .com,

and this is only for men in ministry leadership. The venue is so small, can only seat less than 200 people, that they are requiring all attendees to be men in leadership.

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson is on the roster, you just heard our guest mention Dr. Lawson earlier. Paul Washer is on the roster, one of the finest preachers on the planet

Earth alive today. Rev. Jeff Thomas, who also deserves that description of one of the finest preachers on the planet

Earth alive today. Rev. Armin Tomasian, who also deserves that description, and a lot of people listening may have never heard of Armin Tomasian.

I am just blown away by this brother. He's a young pastor, and I think over the next decade he's going to be a household name amongst

Reformed Christians. When I hear him preach, I feel like I have been transported back in time, and I am in the congregation of a

Puritan, listening to a Puritan preach. He is just a wonderful brother, and a humble, extremely humble brother, as well as a gifted brother.

Richard Corwell Jr. and Andrew Quigley are also on the roster. I've not yet heard them preach, but since Sermon Audio selected them,

I'm sure they must be wonderful, because Sermon Audio, as many of you may know, is very selective and particular, so I'm sure that they are excellent.

If you want to join me there, Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, go to thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com. Also, this is some exciting news for pastors listening.

Pastors and deacons and elders, and by the way, I think elders and pastors are the same office.

Parachurch leaders, if you are a man in ministry leadership, I invite you to the next

Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon, which is going to be held Thursday, January 9th, in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and our speaker for the very first time is going to be

Justin Peters. Many of you may know who Justin Peters is. What a gifted and remarkable brother he is.

He has cerebral palsy. He travels the world, renouncing and exposing the charlatans in the word of faith, or name it and claim it, or health, wealth, and prosperity gospel cult, and he is just a blessing to not only know and to share fellowship with, but also to hear him speak and teach.

He is going to be our speaker for the first time, and there will be hundreds of brand new books available, as there always will be, at the

Iron Sharpens Iron radio luncheons that are free. The men who attend these conferences, or these luncheons

I should say, leave with a very heavy sack of free books that have been donated by major Christian publishers all over the

United States and in the UK, and these are books that I personally select from each publisher.

Each publisher donates a hundred copies, so we have enough for every man, each and every man that attends.

So if you want to come, it's free of charge. Everything is free. The food is free. The books are for free.

Hearing the guest speaker is for free. This was the brainchild of my precious late wife in the 1990s, and we have been orchestrating and running these pastor's luncheons since the 90s, and after she went home to be with the

Lord, I continue them in her honor and memory and in tribute to her. So if you want to attend, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and I will put you on the guest list to attend the 2020

G3, I'm sorry, Iron Sharpens Iron pastor's luncheon.

And by the way, my guest's dad has been to most of these luncheons.

I think if he missed any, it was only one, but he always is glowing with joy after these conferences.

He really loves them. I'm sure my guest Jeremy will attest to that. Hopefully we'll have Jeremy able to make the flight out to Long Island, not out to Long Island, to Carhall, Pennsylvania to attend one of these luncheons.

And after that, the aforementioned G3 conference, G3 conference 2020 is being held from Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th in 2020 on the theme, as we mentioned before,

Worship Matters. And the roster of speakers is always breathtakingly long and remarkable.

I don't think I know of any conference that has a list of speakers this long who are all extremely impressive and gifted and mind -blowingly remarkable.

Again, we have Dr. Steven J. Lawson at the conference, at the G3 conference. We have the founder,

Josh Bice, who is a really gifted preacher. If you have never heard Josh Bice, you've got to go to Sermon Audio or somewhere else where you can hear his preaching.

He is a really gifted brother, and as I said, founder of the G3 conference. The aforementioned

Anthony Mathenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, who's also the pastor of Paul Washer.

My friend, Dr. James R. White, dear friend since 1995, world -renowned preacher, teacher, author, debater, apologist,

New Testament Greek scholar, just a brilliant brother, but also a wonderful friend. And also

Phil Johnson, another friend of mine who's been interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio more than any other guest.

He is the executive director of Grace to You Ministries, the ministry founded by John MacArthur.

My friend Todd Freel, whose ads you've been hearing, promoting the G3 conference on this program.

He is speaking. Derek Thomas, the world -renowned Presbyterian teacher, preacher, author, conference speaker.

My friend, Dr. Tom Askell, the executive director of Founders Ministries, the Calvinistic ministry in the

Southern Baptist Convention. Stephen J. Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

R .C. Sproul. Kosti Hinn, the nephew of the notorious charlatan Benny Hinn.

Kosti Hinn has renounced the Word of Faith heresies of his youth and of his uncle, and he travels as often as he can exposing this wicked cult, the

Word of Faith cult, for the deceiving and deadly and damning deception that it is.

And many more are speaking, including, as we have been saying, our guest today,

Jeremy Volo, and also the most recent addition to the lineup is John MacArthur himself.

I would go to this conference even if John MacArthur was all by himself preaching. I can't wait to be in the same room while John MacArthur is preaching.

I've never been in the same room with him. I've never heard him preach face -to -face, although he has been a guest on this program and has written a wonderful glowing commendation for this program.

I've never met Dr. MacArthur, so I am eagerly looking forward to that. If you want to join me there, Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, 2020, at the

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com, and remember, if you have a business, a parachurch organization, a special event, or anything else that you want to promote to the

Body of Christ in very large numbers, this is an ideal place to man an exhibitor's booth. So if I were you,

I would register for an exhibitor's booth as well. They have over 5 ,000 people that attend the

G3 Conference annually, and with John MacArthur added to the lineup, I think they're going to have over 6 ,000 people.

I am very confident of that, and I have always been extraordinarily blessed by manning an exhibitor's booth at the

G3 Conference, and one of those extraordinary ways was when I interviewed my guest, Jeremy Volo, and his lovely bride,

Ginger, while manning the exhibitor's booth. I interviewed them both live on site, but if you want to register just to attend or also to man an exhibitor's booth, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com, and please tell them that you heard about Iron Sherpins Iron Radio from Chris Arnson at Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

Please, I don't know how I bungled up that, but please tell the folks at G3 Conference that you heard about them from Chris Arnson at Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

And last but not least, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to ironsherpinsironradio .com,

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I just received two generous donations today. And as I may have said earlier,

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If you are not a member of a bible -believing church and you are not even prayerfully looking for one, you are living in rebellion against God, please send me an email if you need help finding a church to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

But I need a church in the subject line and I will help you find a church. I have biblically faithful churches listed from all over the world and I've helped people find churches all over the world, whether they have joined these churches as members or whether they have visited them on vacation or whether they have recommended them to others that they know and love.

So please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Jeremy Volo on God's plan and purpose for worship.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And Jeremy, I don't know if you need to wrap anything up from our previous conversation about your entering into seminary, but if you want to wrap that up, if you haven't already, and then we can move into our subject at hand.

Yeah, no, I think I was able to communicate a lot of what God's done and here we are now at the

Mass Seminary and you mentioned Dr. John MacArthur. He's now our pastor and it's just been an incredible blessing to be not only in the ministry that God has used him to so fruitfully multiply, but to be able to interact with and learn from him has been a great joy.

And so, yeah, just so grateful what God has done in bringing us here. Praise God.

Well, the theme is God's plan and purpose for worship.

You know, this, as I already mentioned, is something that is something that triggers a lot of emotion and often more heat than light.

There are brothers and sisters who vehemently and vociferously and angrily and passionately disagree with each other on worship.

And it's a tragedy, obviously, because even brethren in the same theological camps often disagree with each other.

Even the most ardent of fundamentalist King James Only folks, a number of whom are my friends, they even disagree with each other on these issues.

But first of all, why don't you start off with God's plan for worship?

Yeah, well, I think there can't be much disagreement at that point. I think everyone who is a

Christian and has any basic understanding of Scripture understands that we were designed and created and are being sustained for the purpose of worship.

It's why God has put us here on the planet. It's why we are existing now.

You could go from passage to passage, from Genesis through Revelation.

Psalm 100 is a beautiful example of that. It tells us that God made us, that we're

His, we're His people, and therefore the response is to make a joyful noise, to serve the

Lord, to come into His presence with singing, to, in essence, worship Him, to devote our lives, our time, energy, opportunities, resources every moment of every day to giving

Him the glory, the adoration, the worship due His name.

That was why we were created. So I don't think there can be disagreement there.

The tragedy of mankind is that we have rejected that purpose.

And so, as we look around our world, and we see, whether it's on the macro level of nations hating nations, we see the headlines this weekend in the

Middle East, to the smaller infighting within the country, we see mass shootings, we see hatred in the political spectrum, we see violence in our streets with protesters, we see all of these problems, even whittling it down to the very issues within our own lives, and this division and hatred within our families and our interpersonal relationships, it all comes down to the reality that we have rejected the very basic purpose of worship in our lives.

We were created to worship God, to give Him praise, to glorify

Him, to honor Him as God, and yet, what does Paul tell us in Romans 1?

We have chosen to worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.

Amen. So, on that basic premise, I think we all agree. We have a listener,

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York. It may sound like a silly question, but could you define what comes into the category of worship?

Because I know that even many Christians who are theologically in harmony disagree over what falls under the umbrella of that specific word and thing that we all are to participate in, that is worship.

The reason I say this is because, as Dr. James R. White has been heard to say on a number of occasions when he is at speaking engagements, he despises it when he is waiting to preach and someone from either the worship music team or the pastor will get up to the pulpit and say, now that we have concluded our time of worship, it is time to hear our preacher,

Dr. White. The reason he is so upset is because he believes that worship is the most vital element of—actually,

I read that wrong. Preaching is the most vital element of worship, and therefore he does not want to be considered something to be outside of the confines of worship when he begins to open

God's Word. If you could explain what you believe is the actual definition of worship.

Yeah, well, that's a fantastic question. It's not a silly question by any stretch of the imagination, and it's one that,

Chris, I think you and I could agree that a lot of theologians and pastors will be quick to answer and have a very precise answer for, and yet, in the experience of the

Christian life, it is much more difficult to live out. And so here's the theological answer, but then

I want to kind of touch on the practical living out of the various elements of what comprises worship.

So, I think the text that we would need to go through is Romans chapter 12, and the

Apostle Paul appeals to the Christians. He says, brothers, by the mercies of God, present your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

And so Paul is defining worship much broader than, as Dr.

James Way is so correct in observing, much of modern evangelicalism defines worship.

It is not that 30 -minute time where we repeat a single chorus over and over to Christian music.

That is not what worship is confined to, where we, on Sunday morning, spend an hour before watching the ball game, then we've worshipped.

No, worship, as Paul defines it, involves every single component of everything you are.

So, he says, present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

So, present everything you are to God for worship. And so, worship includes our thoughts, our words, our actions.

And I love what Dr. White speaks about there, and I would agree with many others,

I know you would, Chris, that preaching is the height of worship, because worship must be informative.

We are driven emotionally in worship by the truth and the reality of the person and work of God.

And so in John chapter 4, when Jesus says we are to worship in spirit and in truth, he's not talking about the

Holy Spirit there, he's speaking about your spirit. We're to worship in our spirits, but we're to worship defined in truth.

We are to worship God as he is. We are to worship him accurately.

And so, the broad spirit... worship involves every component of life.

Now, let me break that down just practically. Let's think about singing.

Well, singing is a form of praise. It's not the only form of praise. We can speak praise, we can pray praise, but think about praise.

The action of praise, where you actually are speaking and thinking and bringing to remembrance in your mind, and perhaps sharing with others, the attributes of God.

Who he is in his omniscience, his sovereignty, his power, his mercy, his grace, his wrath, his justice, his goodness.

As you're bringing this to mind and speaking to him as well as to others about who he is, you're praising him for it.

And not only his attributes, but his accomplishments. What has God done? What has he fulfilled?

What has he done in time past? What is he doing currently? And what has he promised yet to do in the future?

So, as you recite these realities to God audibly or in your own spirit, you are praising him.

That's worship. But let's think about some other dimensions of the Christian life. You think about prayer.

Well, in prayer, what is prayer? It's communion with God. You're speaking to God, and you're bringing your petitions to him.

You're asking him to answer certain petitions you have. Now, let's just think about how that is worship.

Well, what are you admitting in prayer when you ask him to provide?

You're admitting that he's able and willing to provide, that he's your provider.

You're worshiping him for his power and his provision. You're extolling him.

You're giving him the glory to his name in the demonstration of your dependence upon him in prayer.

There are other areas we could walk through. We could walk through the confession of sin.

You admit that you are not holy, that you have violated a righteous standard.

Well, whose righteous standard? Well, God's righteous standard. And why is he the lawgiver? Because he is the judge.

And so, even in your confession of sin, you are worshiping God as the great lawgiver and the judge who is holy, holy, holy, a standard to which we cannot measure up.

Chris, one more. I could mention more, but I definitely want to mention belief or faith, even the dependence and the demonstration of that dependence in faith, where we believe, we trust in God for our salvation and our sanctification and our glorification.

That's a demonstration of worship. That is worship. Why? Because we're trusting him, which is demonstrating that he is trustworthy.

And we are not trustworthy, and nothing else in this universe is trustworthy, but he is trustworthy.

So, in having faith, you're worshiping God. And practically speaking, and you see this passed early, but just in the experience of the

Christian life, I think it was Sinclair Ferguson who put it this way, Satan wants to eat the

Christian's faith for breakfast. I mean, every day, Satan desires to devour your faith.

But by you refusing to place your trust in anything or anyone else, but in Christ alone, you are demonstrating and worshiping him for his trustworthiness.

Does all that make sense? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Thank you, CJ. We have a question from Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says,

How are we ever going to stop the hateful infighting amongst those in the body of Christ over the style and manner of worship?

I see on one end of the spectrum, those that are more prone to be pushing an agenda for modern worship that seem to completely exclude those who are senior saints and have little or no regard at all to how comfortable they are being in the presence of loud and raucous music.

On the other end of the spectrum, I see those that act as if they are Pharisees, judging music by standards that are nowhere found in the

Word of God. How can we on this planet come to some kind of a meeting of minds where we can be sensitive to those on both sides of the spectrum, the youth and the elderly?

Yeah, that's a fantastic question. Immediately, James chapter 4 comes to mind, and I think we can flesh this out just in a few minutes.

James 4 .1, what causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you?

You desire and do not have, so you murder, you covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel.

Now, just think about that, Alex, pertaining to worship. Obviously, there are so many variables in this conversation when it comes to worship in various churches, so I can't possibly answer every dispute within the

Church, but what I can speak on is what Scripture speaks on, is that the divisions and the divisiveness and the quarrels arise when our passions are at work within us.

And if you notice what James says, you desire and you do not have, so you murder, you covet.

And he says, these are your passions at war within you. Look, a lot of the conversation about worship is a necessary conversation.

We need to talk about the regulative principle. We need to discuss that reality that God demands to be worshiped how

He commands us to worship Him. Not, not, not, we can't just pick and choose how we want to honor

God. That's an absolutely vital conversation, but within that conversation, there's so much that God doesn't give us.

He doesn't exactly tell us what the hymn sounded like, but He commands us to sing hymns.

He doesn't exactly tell us what the spiritual songs sound like, but He commands us to sing spiritual songs as well as psalms.

And so, I think what we need to do is really go back to speaking to ground our discussion and to ground our worship in the

Word of God. Whether you are on the modern music or the traditional music side of the spectrum,

I think we have to admit, at some point, that it's more tradition -speaking than God's Word at times.

And so, we need to be radically Bible -centered, look at what Scripture says about the various issues, and from those principles, come to common ground.

And so, I'll just give a couple of principles. One, in Ephesians and Colossians as well,

Colossians 3, we're commanded to sing psalms in spiritual songs. And so, we need to involve in our repertoire in worship the various kinds of singing.

And I think some churches that want to decry modern music are in sin because they've utterly ignored the singing of psalms and vice versa.

So, there's a basic principle from which we need to find common ground. The other would be found in Paul's letter to the

Corinthians that everything must be done decently and in order. And so, I would want to be very conscientious, very considerate, working from these broader principles down to the more specific to find common ground with other believers on how we can worship and honor the

Lord, and honestly, to humbly admit what is simply preference or tradition, and admit what is

God's Word. Because how dare we demand our tradition or our preference trump someone else's when

God's Word is perfectly clear that both would glorify Him. And again,

I can't get into every single variable, every single issue, but I hope that's generally helpful.

I think James, right before James 4, he's talking in chapter 3, and just listen to these words.

If only these words would rule in our conversations on these things.

Listen to James 3 .13. Who is wise in understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, you do not boast and be false to the truth.

This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere, and a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

I think if we take James imperative there to heart, I think the conversation will be much more civil.

And we're going to our final break right now, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to read a question from a listener and have you respond to it after we return from our final break.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, I am not among the who believe that rhythm and melody are morally neutral necessarily.

I'm not saying that is always the case, but I do believe that there is an obvious intention on certain styles of music that would be forbidden, in my opinion, from being compatible with the worship of God that demands that we worship him in civility and in order.

So if you could respond to this, and we will have you respond to that when we return from our final break.

If anybody else wants to join us, do so quickly because we're rapidly running out of time. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

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We are now back with Jeremy Volo, and Jeremy, as you know, before the break we had

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who's basically making a point that he doesn't believe that music is morally neutral, and I don't know if I 100 percent agree with that, but I definitely agree that the instrumentation involved, or even the melodies and rhythms involved in music, whether they involve instrumentation or not, that they lend themselves to moods, and not all moods are appropriate for worshiping

God. Dr. G. David Gordon, or D.

David Gordon, T. David Gordon, that's it, T. David Gordon, in his book,

Why Johnny Can't Sing, when I interviewed him on that book, he made a very good point that unless your loved one had specifically requested this, you would probably be in shock and horror if a loved one of yours, a precious dear loved one, a parent, a sibling, a child, you were having a funeral for that individual, and then people started playing kazoos in the middle of the service.

You would be outraged because of the frivolity and the comical nature of those sounds.

So I think that would stand with an objection to any kind of instrumentation or melody or rhythm in a worship service, if you could.

Yeah, so I think we would need to define terms in this conversation, because it's a very large conversation,

I love the question, but we need to define what do we mean by morally neutral or unneutral, because I think we do get into dangerous water when we start trying to say certain melodies are inherently sinful.

So there has been a large movement in America for the last maybe five or six decades trying to categorize backbeat in music as inherently sinful and essential music, and people will appeal to Daniel chapter 3 and somehow pull backbeat out of the music that was played for King Nebuchadnezzar and the whole city would worship the golden calf.

But frankly, I think this is an issue of holoscriptura, where we have to see what does

Scripture say. Does Scripture say backbeat or any certain beat or intonation of music is itself sinful?

So I would want to differentiate the question. Are we asking whether certain kinds of music can be used for sinful purposes or unworshipped full purposes?

Well, absolutely. But I don't think it's the sounds themselves that are sinful.

I think for instance, with the backbeat conversation, you've just eliminated an entire continent from worshiping

God. I mean, African worship is very lively and uses percussion in very lively ways and very

God -honoring ways. And so I would want to define the questions, and I know that's a longer discussion we have here, but it all goes back to holoscriptura.

I'm going to speak where God speaks in defining what is worship, and I'm going to be silent where God is silent when it comes to defining worship and specifically what instruments.

I think we can be very culturally blind at this point and think, well, because I culturally associate the saxophone with something sensual, then therefore it is not worshipful.

Well, I think we need to be careful and go to Scripture as the basis for authority, otherwise we do get into a battle of tradition.

And having said that, the Scriptures do teach, infallibly and inerrantly, that we are to conduct our worship decently and in order, and I think that there are some styles of instrumentation that are so raucous that they would not be conducive to that at all.

And I think that if anybody was really honest, if they were in the midst of a worship service and a death metal rhythm and melody or punk rhythm and melody that was drowning out even anything that was being sung or just conjuring up all kinds of rebellious and evil thoughts in the minds of those listening, let alone driving out senior citizens who would be terrified of what they're hearing,

I think that there is a case to be made in part for what our listeners said, if you want to comment on that final thought there.

Yeah, well, I think it's a large discussion. I think I would just go back to our cultural senses and yeah,

I think we need to, what makes this conversation difficult is we really can't brush with a broad stroke.

I think we need to be very careful to take each incident in its separate case so that we don't seek to eliminate an entire group.

I would think we need to be very intentional and biblical in how we define worship, and so as a pastor,

I want to have those conversations consistently in the context

I am with an open Bible and allow God's Word to be applied to that specific question.

So yeah, it's a great question. It's a great conversation. I think it all stems back to the issue of sola scriptura.

And by the way, I'm sure that my listeners must recognize that I do have a broad taste in music and even have some heavy metal guitar going on behind ads in my show, but I don't think that an advertisement is the same thing as a worship service.

But I want to thank you so much, Jeremy, for being an excellent guest. Once again, I look forward to you returning soon so that we can further promote the

G3 Conference before it occurs January 16th through the 18th. And I want to remind our listeners that they can go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com to register to attend the conference and also to register for an exhibitor's booth if it applies to you.

Thank you so much, Jeremy. Do you have any contact information that you care to share? Yeah, I think right now the best thing to do to see the ministry

I'm involved with is to go to gracechurch .org and examine the ministry of Pastor Charles Parthu there.

I'm faithfully serving under his ministry, seeking to faithfully serve under his ministry. So gracechurch .org.

Great. Well, I want to thank you again. I want to thank everybody who listened. I hope you all have a safe, blessed, and happy weekend, and God -honoring

Lord's Day. And I hope you always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.