WWUTT 620 Q&A Disqualified Elders Singing Loving Words?

If you see a pastor who is disqualified from being a pastor, how should you approach that? Is there evidence of angels singing in the Bible? And what's the difference between the Greek words Rima and Logos?

The answers to these questions, when we understand the text.

You are listening to When We Understand The Text, teaching through the Bible verse by verse that we may come to know the full counsel of God. Visit our website www .tt .com for all our ministry resources.

Now here's your host, Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, Becky.

You're welcome.

So Lloyd Legalist just posted something that I was reminded of. It was a clip of a pastor. This is a real thing. He actually said this in a sermon.

Oh, this is making me nervous.

So this is, this past week we were talking about how one of the qualifications for a pastor is that he must not be quarrelsome.

Right.

Okay, so here's an example of a pastor being quarrelsome.

There was a young man in Calvary, his name was Ben. And I was running a youth group. I was there for a few years. And he was just, he was a nice kid, but he was one of those kids that was always just, he's a real smart aleck, was just, was a bright kid, which didn't help things, right?

Made him more dangerous. And we were outside one day, youth group, and he was just, just trying to push my buttons and he was just, you know, kind of not taking the Lord serious. And I walked over to him and I went, bam!

I punched him in the chest as hard as I, I crumpled the kid. I just crumpled him. And I said, I leaned over and I said, Ben, when are you going to stop playing games with.

God?

I led that man to the Lord right there. There's times that that might be needed. Can some of us say? You know what? If it wasn't for God kicking my rear, I wouldn't be here. I've seen people, it literally took, sadly, a physical beating to come to the Lord.

That sounds like an initiation to a gang. That sounds awful.

Well, I've decided we're going to implement a new policy at our church for evangelism now having listened to that.

Oh boy.

Here we go. What's the policy?

I'm just kidding.

Oh, I thought you were going to say no punching.

I was going to implement punching. This is our new, our new evangelism strategy. We're going to beat people down and you're going to accept Jesus. You know, that's, that's how you do things.

That must be, apparently to just smart people though.

Must be taking a page out of the Todd Bentley book of evangelism there. But anyway, 2 Timothy chapter two, verse 24, the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.

Did that sound like something that?

Yep.

He was correcting with gentleness.

Correcting opponents with gentleness.

Oh my goodness.

God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. And they may come to their senses, not by getting a beat down, but by being transformed by the Holy Spirit of God. They may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will.

Now, if he truly did come to the Lord, that was because of the Lord. It was not because the man punched him.

I would hope that there was some preaching of the gospel in there, you know, because that wasn't even mentioned at all.

No.

But anyway, here I am trying to rationalize it. Don't punch youth kids to lead them to the Lord. How about that?

Yeah.

Or anybody.

Punch a high school kid and crumpled him to the ground and led him to the Lord right there. That's not an evangelism strategy. Don't try that.

No, don't do that. Please don't.

So that actually leads us to our first question here.

Oh boy.

Okay.

This just keeps getting better.

It's not what you think.

Okay, good.

This one comes from Tim. He says, hi, Gabe. I have really enjoyed discovering your podcast recently. Thanks for doing them. With all your discussion of the qualifications for the role of pastor, could you please address the issue of the congregation judging the pastor?

It would be very easy for people to hear your previous comments and jump to the conclusion from what they see of their pastor that he's not fit for the role. Could you discuss what is the process people should take if they feel their pastor isn't qualified or fit for the role?

And also, who in the church should be the one addressing the issue? So this was actually something I was going to get to when we came to 1 Timothy 5. Because this is where Paul says, verse 17, let the elders who rule be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

And then verse 18 for the scripture says, you shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain and the laborer deserves his wages. But then you've got the flip side of that. Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear. So if you have been going through the list of qualifications for an overseer that we just talked about in 1 Timothy 3, 1 through 7, and you see based on that list of qualifications that your pastor is unqualified in some way, don't be like cage stage in your approach to this.

Exactly.

Like where you're being hypersensitive, you're being ungracious, you are being very suspicious of the person instead of showing him kindness and love and just recognizing that even pastors are sinners.

Right.

So you're going, if you want to find mistakes in your pastor, you are going to find them.

You definitely will. You will find them in anybody.

Right.

So this cannot just be a matter of, I'm going to find something wrong with him because maybe he's disqualified. And I believe that's why this has been presented in chapter 5 as bringing a charge against an elder on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

And I would say, if at all possible, three witnesses.

Oh yeah.

So that you are establishing every charge rightly the way that it says in scripture that when a charge of wrongdoing is being brought against a person, that it's not just one person's testimony, but it's verified by another and if possible, even a third.

So if you...

Not just hearsay, but actually witnessing.

Exactly. Exactly. So there was a situation that came up, I think this was two years ago now, against me, where someone in our church had raised an objection to my qualifications as pastor and came before the elders and presented a list of problems that he had with me.

And the only solution to this was that Gabe needed to be removed as pastor. And if you're listening to me say this going, goodness, what did you do? Nothing. I did nothing. The eldership did not find any credibility in the statements that he had made.

It was just a person who was being very nitpicky and very suspicious and ungracious. And some others in the church heard his list of problems that he had with me. And that was their same conclusion too.

They just said, it just sounds very ungracious to me. And it was not... None of the things on his list were even things he witnessed. He was grabbing stuff that other people were saying, and then coming up with this list of problems that he had with me.

But the only solution to this problem was not that he needed to listen to the elders and needed to exercise more grace. The solution had to be, Gabe needed to be removed as pastor or I'm leaving. And that's ultimately what ended up happening.

So one of the reasons why these charges need to be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

And also why it's very important to have the eldership.

Yeah, right.

Right.

I would say so too.

Because without that, I mean, there's just a lot more protection there as far as both keeping you accountable as a pastor. That if charges do come up that hold a candle, you know what I mean? You can work through that.

Yeah.

So it's important to have plurality eldership in that way. This is one of the reasons, I don't think it's the only reason why there should be plurality eldership just to protect the pastor. But it's certainly beneficial.

So that my elders and I, we meet once a week.

Right.

So if there's anyone that's familiar with.

You try anyway.

Yeah, we try to.

Yeah.

Lately, everybody's been traveling. But the time that we spend together, they come into my home. They see the way that we live. They see how I interact with my wife and with my children. There's no one in the church I spend more time with than the other elders.

And so this is the way that we help to encourage one another, build each other up, recognize the ways in which we should be shepherding in the church, praying for each other and praying for the church and reading the word together.

So even what.

Iron sharpening iron.

Iron sharpening iron. Precisely. And we don't always agree eye to eye on every single thing.

Right.

Because otherwise you just have group think. But yeah, like you said, encouraging and admonishing one another where necessary. So coming back again then to Tim's question. So say you see some problems in an elder or an overseer.

How do you bring those things up if you consider that he's disqualified? And again, so first of all, it needs to be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Right.

But also what hearsay?

Exactly. But also, what are we talking about? Is it something serious like you found out that he might be having an affair? Or is it just something where the guy is a little short tempered? I mean, he really kind of lashes out at people because those you're going to handle those issues two completely different ways.

Right.

And so without going into all of the details of this, because like I said, we'll talk about this when we get to chapter five. But I think that that's what needs to happen first. The evidence of two or three witnesses.

That's what needs to happen first.

Okay.

So.

Now, how do you go about gathering the information without sounding like you're gossiping?

How do you go about gathering info?

Yeah.

Like if you see an issue with your pastor and then you wonder if somebody else sees the issue or if you're just kind of overthinking it.

That's a good question. Maybe not be too quick to jump the gun, but maybe wait to see if you've got somebody else that has observed the same thing or if you observe the pattern of behavior again.

Right.

Now, that's true.

Now, if you see your pastor doing something wrong, this manner in which you confront a problem with a pastor that's mentioned in chapter five, that doesn't mean you can't approach him personally. This is not saying, hey, don't ever correct your pastor.

You have to have two or three witnesses. That's only in a disciplinary matter. But if you see your pastor doing something that concerns you, you saw him lash out at.

Somebody.

Maybe he spoke to his children too sternly or inappropriately or something like that. Or you heard him say something about someone else behind their back that just wasn't a good display of good character.

You can personally approach him and say, pastor, I saw you doing this, that, or the other, and it just bugged me. I just wanted to let you know that concerned me. I didn't think it was a good witness.

I didn't think it was a good presentation of Christian character. And hopefully, as a man of the Lord, he's going to say, well, thank you for bringing that to my attention. And when he says that, then say, okay, you say to yourself, he seemed pretty receptive.

Of it.

So hopefully now it's been brought to his attention that he was acting in a certain.

Way.

Maybe he was not aware he was acting that way. But don't start going in your mind with, you know, he just didn't get it.

Right.

I just don't think he got what it was that we were talking about. And I've mentioned this on the program several times before, the way my wife knows that my mind works is she brings something to my attention and then I deny it.

And then I walk away and then I go, well, yeah, she was right, you know.

And sometimes it takes a while too. Maybe I'll make a point, but it isn't priority yet.

Oh, yeah.

Right. It's not something I have to change right now.

Right.

And it'll come back later.

Yeah.

Something like that.

And also habits are hard to break.

Yeah.

I mean, if that's already become a habit where, you know, I mean, I have a bad habit of getting grumpy whenever I need to eat. And so I need to control myself. I really do.

It's bad. You can go to your pastor and go, pastor, do you need a cookie?

Do you need Snickers? Do you need Snickers?

Now, we're really just talking about the matter of being quarrelsome. That's really, really the only example we're using here.

Right.

But we'll we'll start to flesh this out a little bit more when we get to chapter five and kind of talk about some different scenarios.

And there are certain scenarios that would be more serious and take more serious of an action than to approach them, you know.

Just don't consider yourself the church's policeman.

Thank you.

And that's you need to make sure everybody's behavior is in line, especially your pastors. I've got the gift of discernment, so I'm going to make sure my pastor is in line.

Make sure the log is out of your own eye first.

That's right.

Get the beam out of your eye.

And then take the speck out of your brother's.

Very good.

That's that's the appropriate usage.

Yes.

Of Matthew chapter seven right there. OK, thank you for your question, Tim. I hope that was shed some light on that a little bit. So when we were going through the qualifications for overseers, chapter three, verses one through seven, that was more a matter of how do you consider a pastor for this position?

And if I'm listening to, you know, when we drew examples of other pastors, when I'm listening to this guy, is this is this guy really presenting the character that he's supposed to be presenting as an overseer?

Right.

And which basically means that you just keep pointing up like it. It doesn't stop with me. You keep looking. Keep looking past me.

Over to Christ.

Yes.

Past me to Christ.

Very good. That's right.

He's supposed to be.

You can't see me, but I was pointing up.

Sorry.

And kind of back behind you somewhere over there.

I'm like back there.

Jesus is over there in our house.

He can cut me. They're looking at me.

I'm supposed to be following your finger.

Is that what you're in?

Yes.

Not me.

Over there.

So, as you are looking for a man of God who is going to fill that role, he's got to meet that list of qualifications there in First Timothy chapter three. So, yeah, definitely don't take that list and say, well, now I'm going to check and see if my pastor.

Yeah.

Checklist.

Here we go.

Ready?

Here we go.

And no, you're not doing that good enough.

No.

Next question comes from Al. He says, hey, Pastor Gabe, I just started listening to your podcast. Like it and saw you at G3. You didn't see me because you don't know me.

Aw, bummer.

Aw, man.

Sorry about that, Al. My question is this. Can or could Job 38 .7 be used to affirm that angelic beings sing? So, this is a long time question. Do angels actually sing? Because we don't have an account of them singing in the Bible, or is it just something that we do?

Is it just a gift that God has given us to lift praises to him? So, only people sing.

I've heard both ways.

But not angels.

Yeah, right.

Right.

I don't know which is right, though.

So, Al goes on. My belief is that there is not enough biblical evidence to back that up. I'm asking because it came up in a group text that I'm in with two pastors and another Christian. One pastor is a friend.

The other is my brother-in-law. I think that's funny that how you differentiate between the friend and the brother-in-law. So, is the brother-in-law not a friend?

I'm just picking on you.

No, no, no.

Just picking on you. And the third person is my son-in-law.

I make that a big deal, too. It's okay.

We discuss theological questions that any one of us has. That's awesome. My son-in-law and I are Reformed. My brother-in-law is Calvinistic in his soteriology, MacArthurite, if you will. And my other pastor friend is Arminian, Arminian, not Arminian.

Thank you for responding.

Okay.

So, this is...

That's a good group.

Yeah, good group of guys. This is Job 38, verses 6 through 7. And this is the chapter that begins with God saying, Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Stand up like a man.

I'm going to question you and you're going to answer. That's how Job 38 begins. So, in verses 6 and 7,. On what were the earth's bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone? When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.

So, the question is, do the morning stars in that passage refer to angels or is it referring to the stars of heaven singing the praises of God? Because there are places where we have that. Like Psalm 19, 1,.

The heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. So, you have that declaration of creation that is declaring God and his greatness. And when it comes to morning star, you actually have morning star come up a couple of different ways in the scriptures.

Jesus is described as a morning star. Revelation 22, 16. And Satan is also described as a morning star in Isaiah 14, 12.

Oh, that's interesting.

So, that doesn't really help us.

I don't think I've ever caught that before.

Right.

They're both described as morning star. And then you also have occasions in which the stars of heaven are used to describe the actual star or the term host of heaven. Is used to describe the stars. And there's more occasions in which host of heaven is used to describe the angels of heaven.

So, in Deuteronomy 4, 19, Beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them. Things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

So, this is God saying, don't look up in the heaven and see these great lights and start worshiping them. So, their host of heaven is used to describe all of the lights that are in heaven, basically sun, moon and stars.

But then in a place like 2 Chronicles 18, where Micaiah is responding to Ahab and he says, Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on his throne and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

So, that's in reference to the spirits. The angels that are gathered around the throne. So, there's different uses of host of heaven. There's different uses of morning star. Stars itself, that word can either apply to the actual literal physical stars or angels.

And so, to answer your question, Al, we don't know.

We don't.

That verse really doesn't give us a clear idea as to whether or not it's referring to angels singing in heaven or whether it's in reference to creation declaring the praise of God.

Right.

As it's personified in other places in the Psalms. But thank you for your question.

We'll find out when we get to heaven.

That's right.

When we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be. We'll all sing and the angels will just watch us.

Sure, perhaps.

Next, we're going to England.

Awesome.

Are you ready? Here we go. Dear pastor, thank you for your review. Oh, I'm sorry. This was in response to a review I wrote on my blog of the book that was written by Brian Zond entitled Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God.

Which Brian Zond is attacking the sermon from Jonathan Edwards, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

Oh, okay.

So, he's trying to say that that's a terrible way that we are supposed to consider God. And so, he kind of wrote like his rebuttal to that. Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God.

Okay.

And so, anyway. So, I wrote my review of that book on my blog and Tony writes in and he says, Dear pastor, thank you for your review. So, now you have context as to the review we're talking about.

Thank you.

One of my pastors during his sermon quoted from this book saying it was rocking his world. It rang all the alarm bells and your review has confirmed them. I'm an evangelist and have wondered why I get so little support from my leadership team.

If doctrine like this has taken root, it is no wonder. If there is nothing to save people from, why would you want to walk the streets telling people about Jesus? They empty the cross of its power and its glory.

Also, which Old Testament are these people reading? I find God's love throughout the Old Testament. His tenderness, compassion, holiness, and justice. The whole Bible is the whole counsel of God. Every blessing, sola scriptura, Tony from Bath, England.

Thank you for your email, Tony.

Yes, thank you.

Very encouraging. And I would like to encourage you as well by praying for you here in just a moment. But one of the things that Tony brought out in that letter that I love so much is where he said, you know, what Old Testament are these guys reading when they call God a monster?

Because that's what Brian Zahn has said. He says the God of the Old Testament is a monster.

Okay.

Basically what his conclusion is.

Not what I get out of that at all.

Right.

So what Old Testament are they reading? Especially when you consider what it is that we have just read in 2 Chronicles chapter 6 when we were doing our study of 2 Chronicles yesterday, where Solomon is praying to God and he acknowledges in 2 Chronicles 6 36.

If they sin against you, for there is no one who does not sin and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy so that they are carried away captive to a land far or near. Yet, if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive and repent and plead with you in the land of their captivity saying, we have sinned and we have acted perversely and wickedly.

If they repent with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their captivity to which they were carried captive and pray toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city that you have chosen in the house that I have built for your name, then hear from heaven your dwelling place, their prayer and their pleas and maintain their cause and forgive your people who have sinned against you.

Now, oh my God, let your eyes be open and your ears attentive to the prayer of this place and now arise, oh Lord God, and go to your resting place. You and the ark of your might. Let your priests, oh Lord God, be clothed with salvation and let your saints rejoice in your goodness.

Oh Lord God, do not turn away the face of your anointed one. Remember your steadfast love for David, your servant. We have the goodness of God and his steadfast love proclaimed in this prayer, just the section of the prayer that I read here from Solomon.

Right.

But also consider, does God have no reason to be angry? Like when we talk about God being angry as Solomon did right here, does he have no reason to be angry?

Of course he does.

Right.

He's angry because we've sinned.

We all sin.

We have.

He even said that.

We have rebelled.

Not one who doesn't.

Amen. We have rebelled against a good and loving God, a good God, a great God, a just God, which is why a holy God, amen to that, which is why when he punishes us, it's rightly deserved. And in fact, much worse do we deserve, but to be cut off from God forever and to be cast into hell.

But yet God gives us opportunity to repent of our sin. And as Solomon is saying here, if we repent with our whole heart, he will indeed grant us forgiveness. 1 John 1 .9.

Praise the Lord.

If we are faithful to ask forgiveness for our sins, God is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Faithful to do it because he is good, just because Christ has paid the price for us.

So the reason why God is just in forgiving us of our sins is because Christ paid the price for our sins.

Right.

So we have the atoning blood of Christ that is upon us. But God is good. He is good in the Old Testament. He is good on in the New Testament.

Oh, yeah.

As as Vodie Bauckham has said, the God on the left side of the book is the same God as the one on the right side of the book.

Right.

There is no difference. Brian Zahn is a false teacher. He is a blasphemous man. He speaks about God in abhorrent ways. And I hope that man repents because, boy, he's going to get a real wake up call on judgment day if he does not the way that he continues to talk about God.

So I'm glad, Tony, that you were able to find that review. And I'm glad that you found that warning to be edifying. And I would like to pray for you as you are doing the evangelism that you're doing there in England.

And I hope that you would have some men and a church around you that would support you and encourage you in that effort.

Right.

As you go out sharing the gospel. So let's pray.

Okay.

Dear Lord, we thank you for Tony. And I thank you for the medium that we have, the internet, to be able to proclaim your word and that people can hear this and they can be encouraged by what we read in the scriptures.

We know that we worship a good God, a loving God. And we know in our hearts that we have sinned against you, against that holy God. But we suppress the truth with such unrighteousness. We would rather go our own way instead of following God's way.

And so Lord, I pray that you would convict our hearts and that we would have such conviction that we would repent before you and, and seek your grace. And if we ask with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, we understand down to our very core, the evil that we have perpetuated against the high King on the throne over all of creation, that you would, that you would see the condition of our heart.

You would test us and know that we are genuinely convicted for the sin that we have done. And that you would forgive us of that sin and lift us up from our stupor, that we may lift our heads high and become children of the day once again, and continue to walk in the light of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

So grant us forgiveness and, and grant us the patience to be able to teach that message of forgiveness to others. I thank you for what Tony is doing there in England, proclaiming the gospel of forgiveness in Jesus Christ.

And I pray that you would give him the strength and the perseverance to endure. I pray that you would put around him some strong and faithful men of the word who would be willing to encourage Tony, pray with him, weeping with him when he gets discouraged about some of the stuff that he sees out there as he's going out in this work of evangelism, but also rejoicing with him whenever he has such great stories of people being convicted of their sin and following in Jesus Christ.