June 29, 2021 Show with Mark Chanski on “The Mission of the Reformed Baptist Network”

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 29th day of June, 2021, and I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest,

Mark Chansky, who is an author and the pastor of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, and he's also the recently appointed coordinator of the

Reform Baptist Network, and today we are going to be addressing the mission of the

Reform Baptist Network and how it does not violate the Baptist principle of the independence and autonomy of local churches.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Mark Chansky. Chris, again, it's a privilege to be with you.

I really appreciate the opportunities that you give me to be on your radio program. A great blessing.

And I appreciate your accepting those invitations. And tell our listeners, for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, tell us about that church.

Yes, we're a church that really is a church plant of Grace Emanuel Reform Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

I actually pastored there from 1989 through 1993, really about five years

I was there. And while we were in Grand Rapids, we planted churches in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and Lethbridge, Verda, Louisville, Kentucky, and Sioux St.

Marie, Michigan. And then we thought maybe we would try to plant a church right near our own portion of the state, as we had some people traveling from the lakeshore into Grand Rapids to church.

So we decided we'd plant a church in Holland, Michigan, about 45 minutes away. And we had a number of families who were interested in that, and they said, well, we'll plant, but we want one of the pastors from the

Grand Rapids church to go. And I volunteered to be the one to go and to plant.

And we started as 12 families who sought to establish a biblical 1689 church in Holland.

We've been there since 94, when we were constituted. And so it's been 27 years.

The Lord gave us a beautiful building in 97, and he's added to our numbers.

He's been faithful to us now for over a quarter of a century. And then just recently, in the past two and a half years, the

Reformed Baptist Network, about which we're going to be speaking this hour, some of the men from the network tapped me on the shoulder and said,

Mark, we think maybe it would be a good thing for you to ponder being the coordinator of the

Reformed Baptist Network, since that prince of a man, Gordon Taylor, is going to step down.

And when they first tapped me on the shoulder, I'll admit to you, Chris, I was not very interested.

I consider that the true influencers in the kingdom are the pastors. And the idea of being asked to be a coordinator, you know, it's like on the football field, the great influencers are the quarterbacks.

I felt like these guys asking me to become the coordinator was like asking me to be a field goal kicker.

And I really didn't feel insurance about that. But they kept tugging on my shirt sleeve over a number of months and began to ponder the possibility.

And as I prayed and I sought counsel, I just consider that the

Reformed Baptist Network is poised at a strategic time in history, I think, to do great things for the cause of the kingdom.

And then in addition to that, back in Holland, the Lord had brought to us an outstanding young man.

And it seems the Lord has mobilized so that a young man named Peter Banfi, who is now my co -pastor in Holland here, it seems that as I am like half -time coordinator now and half -time pastor,

I'm going to be weaned off and more. Peter will be taking the lion's share of the preaching ministry.

And I'm so thankful that the Lord provided a very competent, gifted, graced young man to give me that sense of enthusiasm to press forward instead of just looking over my shoulder at my dear, precious bride, the church in Holland, Michigan, whom

I've cared for for over a quarter of a century. I'm really confident now that there's established gift and leadership.

There are also four other elders in our church. So God has been gracious and merciful.

And I think this time of transition has the fingerprints of the Lord all over it. Well, tell us about exactly what the

Reformed Baptist Network is. Many people hearing that name might think that it is a radio or television network, although that would be great, wouldn't it, to have a

Reformed Baptist Network that was entirely Reformed Baptist on radio or television?

But that's not what it is. Tell us about what exactly this organization is.

Yeah, Chris, you are the one who's Reformed Baptist Media, not us. But as far as we're concerned, we call ourselves the

Reformed Baptist Network in the sense that we believe we're making strategic interconnections in the kingdom for the cause of fulfilling the

Great Commission. You know, the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 28, All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the

Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all I've commanded you, and lo, I'm with you even to the end of the age.

So that's the business that we're to be about as the Church of Christ. Yes, as each local church, but also as the global church works hand -in -hand together, it's important that we have these interconnections so that, oh, for instance, in the

Reformed Baptist Network, we have Reformed Baptist Church of Holland is in the network.

The Reformed Baptist Network was established in 2015. In fact, we had our first GA in Taylors, South Carolina.

Boy, we had, I think, Mark Dever was our keynote speaker, and we established ourselves with, at first, 26 churches at that time.

I think it was actually 2016, 26 churches. And so you have a church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Grace Emanuel.

Church in Coconut Creek, Florida, pastored by Jeff Smith and others.

Emanuel Baptist Church. Church in Riverside, California, Reformed Baptist Church of Riverside, pastored by Robert Elliott.

Covenant Baptist Church in Toronto, pastored by Chris Powell. Church pastored by Matt Foreman in Media, Pennsylvania.

Chad Bennett, Hazleton, Pennsylvania. Mark Redfern in Owensboro, Kentucky.

I can go on and on. These churches are networked, interconnected together.

You know the statement, many hands make light work. And so instead of our being each lone, isolated churches who can have a challenge to accomplish a lot with that many hands making light work, we can strengthen one another and strategize to accomplish, one, the planting of churches domestically, as that's our great desire, to be able to take churches that have a biblical blueprint.

Our own confession of faith that we hold in the network is the 1689

Baptist Confession. So we can plant churches with the same blueprint.

Churches from all over the country, all over North America can plant a church.

If you've got a guy working together with a Californian alongside a

Floridian and they work together, they have a common purpose, because they have that common confession of faith.

The Bible is our authority, but the confession establishes what it is we're about.

So we're networking together on the basis of a common confession. And also we're desiring to send missionaries overseas.

And for some churches, it's very difficult for one church to shoulder the weight of a missionary to go off to, say,

Africa or India or Southeast Asia. But you may need three, four, five churches banding together to provide the financial muscle to carry the missionary overseas.

So that's what we're networking together to do. Our desire is, even in our own purpose, our purpose is to glorify

God through fellowship and cooperation in fulfilling the great commission to the ends of the earth.

So other than an official adherence adoption of the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith, also known as the Second London Confession, what else must a church and its leaders believe to be welcomed into membership at Reform Baptist Network?

For instance, although most of the Reform Baptist pastors and churches of which

I am personally aware have a non -millennial position on eschatology, but I do know post -millennialists amongst

Reform Baptists, and I know historic pre -millennialists, tell us about some of the differences that may be allowed, as well as what you insisted on.

Well, you mentioned eschatologically. The fact of the matter is that the 1689

Confession does not specify that one needs to be amill, postmill, or premill.

Right, in fact, Charles Adams Spurgeon was historic premill, and he adopted the confession. Yes, exactly, exactly.

Most of the men in the network are amillennial, and that would be the general theological position regarding eschatology.

We do call for an adherence to the 1689

Confession. However, we would hold to and call for not a strict adherence, but rather a substantial subscription to the

Confession. We believe it's important that there would be liberty and charity over minor matters of wording and application and nuance that would not be essential to the whole of the doctrine.

For example, in our own church, when we wrote up our Constitution, we made some exceptions to the 1689.

And one exception would be the statement that the Pope is the Antichrist. Now, we would believe that the

Pope, as the Roman Catholic Church, with its doctrine of works righteousness, is an expression of Antichrist, but we don't necessarily think that the

Pope and the Vatican at this time is the Antichrist. Or, for example, our own church would make exception to the statement in the

Confession regarding the elect infants who die in infancy, and the concept of all infants actually being saved.

We would say that's not an issue that we are going to commit to when it comes to the

Confession. There would be other areas as well, where there would be difference in nuance, matters that aren't necessarily central, but rather more periphery.

Now, over the years, I have discovered that there have been

Baptist churches, there are Baptist churches, believe it or not, that have on their websites, that have an official declaration and identity as adherents to the 1689

London Baptist Confession. But they are landmark Baptists. They are primitive Baptists.

They are dispensational Calvinists. Are any of those areas something that, whereas you might not view them as any less brethren in Christ, the disagreements might be too much for you to have them be a part of the

Reformed Baptist Network. Oh, sure, it's possible. It's possible that we might find...

Oh, certainly, let's say that we found someone who would call themselves a four -point

Calvinist, let's say. And they would say, we just don't embrace the concept of particular redemption or limited atonement.

Well, that is really a theme, the doctrines of grace, that are shot through the various chapters of the

Confession, and it's dripping in the truths of the Word of God that this would be an area where, if we were trying to, let's say, plant a church together, or if we were trying to send out a missionary together, that wouldn't really be promoting harmony.

And again, that's that point of, we desire to make sure that the areas that are central are agreed upon.

All that being said, I do think that, as the Lord Jesus said in Mark 9 40,

He said, those who are not against us are for us.

And I think it's important that we as Reformed Baptists to be able to have that magnanimous perspective, where we are robustly confessional, we're embracing the historical stream of Christian orthodoxy.

But there may be some who have differences of opinion that are nuanced, that there may be diversity among the churches.

Even the issue of, maybe take the Lord's Day. When it comes to the whole theme of how we might actually celebrate, or we might actually practice the

Lord's Day among the churches, there may well be diversity among churches.

I've gone to churches, say, in the South or in the Far West, and maybe one church, it's possible that someone might, say, play catch or volleyball in the backyard with their family on a

Sunday evening. And another church wouldn't think of doing that. Or it's even possible that someone in a church might pick up a pizza on the way home on a

Sunday evening. And we realize that when it comes to issues of the

Lord's Day with specific practice, there may well be diversity and difference of opinion on this.

And so we wouldn't say that this is an issue that is central to the doctrine of the

Confession, but would be periphery, and it's going to have diversity of practice among the churches.

We don't want to force everyone to be uniform in every way of practice.

Even take the issue of the regulative principle. Yes, the Confession calls for the implication and the application of the regulative principle in worship, but when you go to a church in, say,

Grand Rapids, Michigan, or a church in Owensboro, Kentucky, or a church in Hazelden, Pennsylvania, or Riverside, California, their worships may have difference of nuance in them.

Some might have a piano. Others might have a guitar.

Some might even have a percussion drum. And we are not trying to take extra -biblical rules and put them as harnesses on churches.

There's going to be diversity in the application of the biblical truths. Now, going back to the regulative principle, just in case there are listeners who are unfamiliar with that term, it's basically that churches are commanded to only practice things that are explicitly in Scripture during a worship service, and that they are only to practice these things, and that they must practice these things, and that the silence in Scripture regarding certain things that may be commonplace today is viewed as restrictive, not as an open door for liberty.

Whereas those who believe in the normative principle think that as long as something isn't a clear violation of Scripture, they have the liberty to have such things in a worship service.

In fact, there's even, as you are well aware, differences of opinion amongst

Reformed Christians that claim to adhere to the regulative principle. You have some that are strictly a cappella because of that, with no musical instrumentation, since there is no musical instrumentation mentioned in the

New Testament. And might I add to what

I said earlier, it's the things that are explicitly mentioned in the New Testament, not in the entirety of Scripture, but things that are explicitly mentioned in the

New Testament that are only those things that can be practiced during a worship service.

You have some that practice exclusive psalmody. You have some that practice both exclusive a cappella and exclusive psalmody.

And you have others that sing hymns, like most, and use musical instruments.

So there is differences of opinion on that. Yes, exactly. You take the normative principle, the way

I would put it is just very practically, if someone calls me up, Chris, and says, hey, Pastor Mark, I'm a leader of a mime troupe, and we worship by dancing on a stage with leotards on Sunday mornings, can we come to your church and help with worship?

I'm obligated to go to the Scriptures and say, where does the Scriptures say that I should worship the

Lord in that way? Where do the Scriptures ask me to bring that as a sacrifice in my worship?

Whereas if I were a normative principle person, I would say, hey,

I'm a pastor, I'm evaluating this. Well, the Scripture doesn't forbid worshipping with leotards and mime and dancing on the stage, so it doesn't forbid it.

Come on along, it's okay! No, no, no. The regular principle, as opposed to normative, says we must have warrant from the

Word of God. And so in our worship, we'll bring, as it says in, say, 2

Timothy 4, preach the Word in season and out of season, where the

Ephesians asks us to sing to the Lord psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, where 1

Corinthians 16 will ask us to bring sacrifices, which would be gifts and sharing, and 1

Corinthians 11 calls us to celebrate the Lord's table. These are the things we incorporate into the worship, because God specifically has asked for them.

However, we realize that when it comes to the act of worship, different people may come to different conclusions regarding what, let's say, singing of psalms, hymns, spiritual songs.

Like you said, some may be exclusive psalmody. Others may be a cappella, singing only.

Others may say a piano is permitted. Others say, no, percussion is permitted. In fact, if you look inside that piano, really, that's a percussion instrument.

By the way, inside that piano are strings, and the guitar is also a stringed instrument.

And therefore, as I say, worship in New Jersey is going to be different from worship in, maybe,

Pennsylvania and Michigan and, boy, I tell you, you go to Southern California and people aren't wearing the suit and the tie that I may have been raised on.

But they're wearing sandals, shorts, and a t -shirt. But they're worshiping in spirit and in truth.

And we can have diversity in our network of churches. And we should celebrate that, and we should be thankful for that, and not try to uniformitize and be hypercritical of others who don't do it provincially just the same way that we do it.

So you're saying that I should leave my leotards home on Sunday and not bring my mime makeup with me either?

Well, put it this way. We're not going to have you be in between the pastoral prayer and the second hymn. I can still remember back in the 1980s the first time

I heard our mutual friend and dear brother, Greg Nichols, preach.

And he was a visiting preacher at the church where I was saved, Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which later became

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, where you preached not long ago as a visitor.

I love that church. Yeah, so do I. That's my former church before moving to Pennsylvania. But I can remember

Greg preaching, and I can remember him in a very loud voice saying, they're bringing puppet shows into the church!

And it is quite a tragedy that people have such a frivolous view of the concept of worship that they would dare do such things.

I mean, obviously, I'm not against Christians having puppet shows for kids and other venues, but in a worship service, that's a little bit ridiculous, or more than a little bit ridiculous.

Sure, sure. And Chris, I do think it's important that we do, oh, like you mentioned, the idea of different types of music, say.

Because the singing of psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, that's something the

Lord called us to bring. So again, there may be diversity in the way that's presented.

I mentioned difference in instrumentality. Even if, let's say that there was a small choir that sang, and a church believed that a small choir, or even some kind of a little worship team was singing, they are bringing what they believe is the scriptural application of that call for sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

Now, one church may do it differently in our network, but again, the point is there's going to be diversity. And I think that's really important regarding even the personality of the network.

Our purpose, as we've said, is to glorify God through fellowship and cooperation.

And I think that's really important that we cooperate, because frankly, I've been a

Reformed Baptist since about 1980, and there were times, and I will call myself guilty as There were times when

I can't say that the chief method that described who we were was actually a method of cooperation.

I think there have been times when we have had unnecessary division among us, because there have been times as Reformed Baptists when we have demanded uniformity on periphery issues that really aren't even central.

In fact, I'd love for you to pick up right where you left off there. That's very important. We're going to our first station break right now.

If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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We'll be right back with Pastor Mark Chansky on the Reformed Baptist Network right after these messages from our sponsors, so don't go.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Welcome back, this is

Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Mark Chansky of the wonderful church out there in Holland, Michigan, Harbor Reform Baptist Church, and he's also the recently appointed coordinator, succeeding

Gordon Taylor, of the Reform Baptist Network. And by the way, please extend my warmest greetings to Gordon.

I absolutely love his preaching and have heard him preach at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I am a member.

And he's a dear brother, and in fact, I've interviewed him in the past, and his wife, actually. But today we are addressing the mission of the

Reform Baptist Network and how it does not violate the Baptist principle of the independence and autonomy of local churches.

And right before the break, you were speaking about the reality, we were pointing the fingers at ourselves, as it were, in regard to Reform Baptists, that we have a well -deserved reputation, especially in years past, of being judgmental, even to a sinful extent, over the way we have criticized and maybe even to the level of shunning people and churches that didn't do exactly everything the way we do it lockstep.

And there were peripheral issues of disagreement that Reform Baptists have seemed to put right next to the solos of the

Reformation, the Five Points of Calvinism, and some of the other pillars of the Christian faith. Yes, yes, yes, because, well said.

The tendency, and I put myself right in that category, in Reform Baptist history there has been the phenomenon of straining out gnats and swallowing camels.

Ephesians 4 says that we are to preserve the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ has forgiven you.

I think there have been times we've strained out gnats and swallowed those kind of camels. Let me just go on and just share how, just positively, what

I've been able to see in the Reform Baptist network. I frankly love this fellowship of churches because I have been a

Reform Baptist pastor for over 35 years, and during that time I have frankly, just as you expressed there,

I've really grown weary with a spirit -quenching tendency to drift toward unnecessary controversy and disputes and contentions and feuds and divisions, and I've really, for years and years,

I've ached for a communion of churches that would embody that principle of, as Jesus said in Mark 9, for if they're not against us, they're for us.

And in the network we do hold, as I mentioned, a light, precious faith.

We hold the 1689 Confession, but we're also called by our

Lord to love and cooperate with those who may minister a little differently than we did.

I went through the book of Acts a number of years ago, Chris, and I think of the Apostle Paul, the way he, oh, he ministered to different people in different ways.

Like in Acts 13, he ministers to these synagogue Jews in Antioch, and he quoted intensely all these old covenant passages, and he showed

Christ as the fulfillment, but then he goes in Acts 14 to those rural

Gentiles in Lystra, I mean the wild and the woolly Gentile world, and he ministered to them differently.

He referred to general revelation, the God who brings to you the rains and the harvests, and then you go on in Paul's ministry and tag along with him, there is in Acts 17 a totally different context culturally, and there he is ministering in Acts 17 in Athens, on Mars Hill, and he's quoting these pagan poets like Epimenides and Arratus.

So I think we see that there's diversity, and I think we need to understand that among our sister churches who hold the like precious faith together, we're just going to look different.

Like even in our own network, we've got the Cowboy West, you've got Powell, Wyoming, which is a contrast to the

Dutch culture of Grand Rapids or Holland, Michigan. And then we've got the left coast of Riverside, California, or we've got the upscale

Coconut Creek, Florida, the urban Chicopee, Massachusetts, Cosmopolitan, Toronto, we even have the church in the

Dominican Republic pastored by our brother Salvador Gomez and Suheil Michelin, and you travel to these churches,

Chris, we do it differently, but that's okay. We need to be able to have fellowship together, and if we're going to do it that way, here's an issue that for me in my own heart

God has worked with with me, the issue of exchanging my pride and sense of superiority for that beautiful trifecta of humility, humility, and humility.

And frankly, Chris, that's what makes my heart sing about the Reformed Baptist Network. There is a sense of humility, kind of makes it a church fellowship dream come true for me, because as of now, the

Lord has enabled us to live with each other and to dwell with each other in ways that are characterized by humility.

Yeah, how we can have different opinions, we put them in perspective, and sometimes the reproof changes the mind as we, iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another, but that doesn't have to bring the division where we can strain out the gnats of the peripheries and swallow the camels of the centrists.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I have witnessed some very severe legalism, in my opinion, as a

Reformed Baptist from other Reformed Baptists. I was wondering if this is because the

Reformed Baptist movement largely came out of churches that were formerly independent fundamentalist

Baptists. There seems to be a lot of similarity between old school

Reformed Baptists and independent fundamentalists other than the rampant anti -Calvinist theology that exists amongst many of them, but not all.

It seems that the only thing I can see that separated the

Reformed Baptists from the independent fundamentalists in issues other than theology is the liberty to consume alcohol responsibly.

But is this the case that Reformed Baptist churches largely came out of independent fundamentalists?

And the reason why I'm wondering if this is true is because today you have

Reformed Baptist churches that are less likely to be so legalistic because they have not come out of that movement, being the children and grandchildren, as far as churches are concerned, of the original

Reformed Baptists that seem to be in a resurgence in the 1950s and 60s.

Yeah, I suppose it's possible, Chris. For me, I view it as a matter of when

I became a Reformed Baptist, which was back even in the late 1970s, even beginning of 1980s, my first exposure to Reformed Baptists, the conviction was a burning desire to embrace biblical truth.

And coming out of a context of easy believism and entertainia,

I think that there was a deep desire to have a pendulum reaction against that, of course, and make sure that we are emphasizing truths such as, without holiness, no man will see the

Lord. And the way that we are to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth.

And that deal for truth, which is wonderful, it's outstanding.

Think of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 2 and the way that He flips over the tables and He calls the

Sanhedrin worship to be conforming to His Father who owns the house.

I think that kind of deal is healthy and it is wholesome. And frankly, I love

Reformed Baptist people who have this deal and a passion for the truth. That being said, it's always important that we minister not just to certain pet, hobby horse positions we might have, but to consider the whole counsel of God, the way that we minister together.

In fact, let me just go on a little bit regarding this issue of the Reformed Baptist network.

And I say, to me, it's kind of a dream network. Oh, we're sinners and we have all kinds of issues that we need to work through ourselves.

But I do believe that the Lord has given us something that is really sweet, because our network is gathering together for the purpose, ultimately, our main text is

Habakkuk 2, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the

Lord as the water's cup of the sea. That's our goal. We're coming together with a purpose.

Our purpose is action, to be able to strengthen each other in ministry, that we might plant churches, that we might send missionaries.

We're busy working for the cause of the kingdom, and this activity can be a very purging thing.

You know the old statement, how idle pond water grows scum, but a rushing stream or brook runs clear and clean.

I think if we are moving ahead with ministerial activity, that is a real therapeutic effect on us, instead of our merely stagnating together, arguing finer points of theology.

I think that even that purpose of the network is so helpful to us. And I think, even if you think of two profiles in ministry, let me just give you this, maybe a tale of two ministries, and what's the

Reformed Baptist network like as far as the personality we strive toward? In fact, could you pick up on a tale of two ministries when we come back from our midway break, because we have to go to our longer than normal break.

Please be patient with us folks, because this is the break that Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us, where they air their own public service announcements and other local things that are required of them by the

FCC to geographically localize all of their programming, including Iron Trip and Zion, to Lake City, Florida.

While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely, write down as much of the information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you possibly can, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

I understand that not everybody can purchase the products that are being offered by our advertisers, or use the services that are being offered, or visit the churches, or support financially the parachurch organizations that are advertising here.

But when you can't do that, and we would hope that some of you or many of you can do that, but when you can't, please at the very least reply to these advertisers and say thank you so much for sponsoring

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Because remember folks, we absolutely positively depend on the finances that come from our advertisers to exist.

We would not be on the air without our advertisers. So please look at them far more than just an inconvenience, because they do occupy a considerable amount of the time on this program.

We can't exist without them, folks. And I love them and thank God for them. So please respond to them and thank them as well, if indeed you love this show.

Also, use this time to send in a question to Mark Chansky at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Mark Chansky. Hello, dear ones.

My name is Justin Peters, and my friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the

United States. We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd, on the theme,

Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be speaking there along with over 20 other speakers, including

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Please join Chris Arnzen and me September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. We are excited to announce another new member of the

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

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Before I return to Pastor Mark Chansky and our discussion of the

Reformed Baptist Network, we have some important announcements to make. First of all, please continue to pray for my oldest brother

John, 76 years old, who has cancer, critical stage emphysema, and an inoperable aneurysm.

He is still in the hospital after the most recent round of chemotherapy and radiation had debilitated him enormously.

Although he has regained consciousness, thanks be to the grace and mercy of our

God, he is too weak to speak, and I am very grateful that my friend

Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, who lives in that same town where the hospital is, where my brother is a patient, he has been visiting my brother

John every day and giving the gospel to him. So far my brother has not given a discernible response that indicates he has clearly embraced the gospel.

I would ask you to pray that he does do that so that I may have great confidence and reason for rejoicing that my brother is on the way to meet his

Savior in glory for eternity. So I would truly appreciate that. Also, tomorrow my brother

Bob, 64 years old, closest in age to me in the family, he is having a cancerous tumor removed from his bladder tomorrow, so please pray for him.

Please make note that tomorrow my dear friend Pastor Josh Bice, who is the founder of the

G3 Conference, he is going to be on the program tomorrow, and our topic is going to be the

Southern Baptist Convention Annual Meeting, What Happened? This is a very, very controversial meeting that recently occurred that has divided members of the

Southern Baptist Convention to the point where I wonder at times when there will be a major split, but Pastor Josh Bice, who is the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, will give his personal assessment on this very important meeting that just recently occurred.

Then we have some other wonderful guests coming up.

Ken Samples, my dear friend of many years, going back to the late 1980s, is going to be discussing his new book,

Christianity Cross Examined, and we also have Marvin Olasky of World Magazine on Friday, the 2nd of July.

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Also, folks, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, theologically sound church, no matter where on the planet earth you live,

I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I may be able to help you find a church no matter where you live.

I have helped people all over the world in our audience find churches, sometimes right around the corner from where they live, that they didn't even know existed, or they didn't know the churches that they passed by every day were theologically sound.

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I may be able to help you. Send me the email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send a question to Pastor Mark Chansky, who is our guest today, pastor of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, and coordinator of the

Reform Baptist Network. We are discussing the mission of the Reform Baptist Network and how it does not violate the

Baptist principle of the independence and autonomy of local churches. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question is of a personal and private nature.

And before the break, Pastor Mark, you were beginning to address a tale of two ministries,

I believe is the way you phrased it. Yeah, I think of people wondering, okay, you say you are the

Reform Baptist Network. What does that mean, you are being in the Reform Baptist Network? And I'll just say, we have our

General Assembly that takes place annually. It will be in September 20 to 23 in Jackson, Mississippi.

I invite all who are interested to go to our website, reformbaptistnetwork .com

and discover that. And you will see, one of our keynote speakers is Conrad Mbewe.

And Conrad is a delightful pastor from Zambia.

I've been able to be at his church there in Lusaka and preach more than once just to see the way that he ministers among his people.

And I say a tale of two ministries because when we think of a Reform Baptist ministry, there could be two stories.

One could be maybe a stereotype that we might have of a ministry that's kind of eccentric, ivory tower, scholar, and that's the idea of the pastor of that Reform Baptist ministry.

But I say a tale of two because I say, look at a guy like Conrad. That would be the type of personality we want to be like in the

Reform Baptist Network, which is, in contrast, really a wise, sheep -loving pastor, like 1

Thessalonians 2, when Paul speaks of, I've exhorted you like a father and I've nurtured you as a mother.

I say that because I've been a Reform Baptist since about 1980, and I know there's a brand of Reform Baptists that can be characterized by hyper -academic and clinical and pedantic and hair -splitting and argumentative and maybe even cranky and divisive.

And I know, surely, over the years, I've been guilty of such things. I can even remember how there was a pastor of a church toward the

East Coast who was saying that he was at a new members class, and the man who was hosting the new members class said, hey, where are you from, you new members?

And some Presbyterians, Bible Church, you have a Lutheran background, Baptists, Reform Baptist background, oh!

And he says, oh, I see there are Reform Baptists here, but I see you're not sitting together. And the idea was that Reform Baptists don't get along.

I'm not saying that's always the case, but I guess I could kind of own that as part of maybe a

Reform Baptist heritage. That would be a ministry that could be heady, scholastic, one -upmanship kind of persona that could minister to pride, but in contrast, at the

Reform Baptist Network, we want to be able to be, I guess I would say, maybe a Conrad -like ministry, or even

David Murray has that great website which is called Head, Heart, Hand, that we minister truth to the head that addresses the passions of the heart, that then enlists the hands and the feet to do and to run.

So as Reform Baptist Network, we do want to be, we want to be theologically precise, and spiritually warm, and practically challenging, and evangelistically zealous, and then missionally, we want to be on fire to get the gospel to every tribe, and tongue, and kindred, and nation.

So yeah, that's true, our theological center is the 1689 Confession of Faith, but that needs to be then coupled with a gracious manner, because we're about an earnest mission, and so we're strengthening churches, we're planting churches, we're sending missionaries, we're reaching souls for Christ.

That's what we're about. That's the kind of a personality and profile we have as the

Reform Baptist Network. And by the way, I want to give a shout out to Conrad Mbewe, since you brought him up.

He has been a dear friend of mine since 1996. I was present during his very first preaching engagement in the

United States, which was at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, where I was a member. And anybody listening who is a man in ministry leadership, whether it be pastor, deacon, parachurch leader, if you are a man in ministry leadership,

I invite you to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio annual pastor's luncheon, where Dr.

Conrad Mbewe will be our speaker. God willing, he has agreed just recently to be the speaker, and cleared his schedule to be the at the next

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon. And this will be held in Carlisle, Pennsylvania on Monday, October 4th.

So mark your calendars and send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. And by the way, he'll also be preaching,

God willing, the Sunday before that, the day before that at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I'm a member now.

Uh, so, uh, maybe you want to, if you're living, if you live out of town, maybe you'll come a day early so you can also worship with us and then hear

Conrad there. Uh, we're really looking forward to Conrad being with us, Chris. And also we have

Sam Waldron. Oh yeah, I've interviewed Sam and I've known him for quite a number of years. What a dear brother seminary.

They'll be bringing a devotional presentation for us on Tuesday of the

September 20 to 23 GA there in Jackson, Mississippi. Also Baruch Maoz will be with us.

Baruch ministered in Israel in Tel Aviv for over two decades.

And Baruch will also be giving a summary of lessons learned over decades of ministry.

And again, these are men who are pastors, Conrad and Sam and Baruch, men who are characterized by a commitment to truth, but again, also the humble embodying of that truth in church life.

I just, let me give a kind of a rendition too of things that we're involved in. In church planting, for example, there's a

Reformed Baptist little plant of a church in Conway, South Carolina, and there's a church in Taylor, South Carolina that is locked arms with a group who are planting that church in Conway.

Or another church plant's taking place just south of the border, south of San Diego.

Robert Elliott's church in Riverside, California is involved in planting a church early stages in Tijuana, where there's a lot of things going on near the border there.

But again, the gospel going there and the establishing of a solid church there.

Also, we've got a missionary, John Corky, who ministers with his wife to two

Indian, American Indian reservations there in Arizona. Or Bob Self, who is laboring there in urban Atlanta.

Or David Vaughn, who is a church planter in that burned over area of atheistic

France. Or Olivier Favre, who's planted churches in France and working in Switzerland.

Or we've got John Rittersgaard, who is planting a church in Barbados. Or Duane Baldwin, who's a missionary off at Baptist Theological School in Novi Sad in Serbia.

Or Larry Seacrest, who's a missionary in South America there in Peru.

And we also have other missionaries who are network missionaries.

I can't even give you names. There's one who labors in northern Africa in an

Islamic nation. And he has to be shrewd as a serpent and innocent as a dove.

And he has a, I'll just say, this ain't your father's missionary in the sense that he's established a business as a tour guide.

And he's able to have Americans come over. And in the marketplace, he can preach the gospel as a mouthpiece of the tourists who may be bartering in the agora for a blanket or a statuette of something.

And as they're arguing and discussing, the missionary can be the speaker for the

American who can say whatever he wants. He can give the whole gospel. And the missionary is able to, as a mouthpiece, speak the gospel.

But he couldn't do it if he were merely speaking by his own volition. Or we have a missionary who's laboring in Oman in the

Middle East. So missionaries, even two new missionaries that we have being added to the network in Southeast Asia, one in Cambodia with his wife, another in Laos with his wife.

So there's a lot of ministry activity that's going on in the

Reformed Baptist Network. Now, let's start to get into a little bit of the controversy that is reflected in our subtitle,

How the Reformed Baptist Network Does Not Violate the Baptist Principle of the Independence and Autonomy of Local Churches.

In fact, you may know that the primitive Baptists began as a group out of a conflict in the 19th century, where they disagreed with mission boards and societies, tract societies, and parachurch organizations, as it were.

And they left and became a separate group, in fact, devolved into hyper -Calvinism as the years went on.

And please, to any primitive Baptists listening who are not hyper -Calvinists, I always try not to broad brush folks.

And I know that there are very solid, even confessional primitive Baptists out there that still use that name for historic reasons, or for one reason or another.

But hyper -Calvinism is certainly very prevalent in primitive

Baptist circles. But anyway, what is it about the

Reformed Baptist Network that even though it is an association of different local churches, it is not a denomination and does not violate that principle of the independence and autonomy of the local church.

There are many, as you know, well, perhaps not many, but there are some Reformed Baptists over the years who have always balked at the idea of an association or have been apprehensive or hesitant to be affiliated with an association because they think that it is becoming a denomination where someone outside of the local church's eldership is involved in decision -making over that church, much like a presbytery might be for the

Presbyterians, or some other hierarchical structure that Baptists have historically rejected.

Even though there are Baptist denominations today, the historic understanding of ecclesiology and church polity has always been plurality of elders, amongst the

Reformed Baptists, that is, and an independence and autonomy that other than Jesus Christ himself, there is no authority outside that local church over them.

So if you could put our listeners at ease who think that this is just another denomination, how they are in error.

That's a very good point to make, Chris, because obviously we find in 1

Timothy 3, the priority of the church where the Apostle says in verse 15, he talks about knowing how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living

God, the pillar and support of the truth. Or even think of Matthew 18, when there is a sin that's taken place, and how important it is to first go to the individual, and then if there's no repentance, you take someone else, and then the highest bar of authority is tell it to the church, and that's the local church.

It's the authority of the church that really is the highest bar of authority.

And in the associations of churches historically, there have been times where, like you say, an association of churches has,

I will say, deteriorated into a denominational structure where the tail wags the dog, in the sense that the denomination becomes an authority over the church, telling the local church what it is to do.

As Baptists, we do indeed believe in the autonomy of the local church, and when it comes to the establishment of the

Reformed Baptist Network, we are fully aware historically of the dangers of denominationalism, or even a hyper -associationalism.

In fact, one individual who has been very reticent to be a part of associations is

Pastor Dave Merrick from the Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids. When it came to the crafting of the

Constitution of the Reformed Baptist Network, Pastor Merrick was there in the inner circle, and his fingerprints are all over our

Constitution to make sure that it is the local church that maintains its autonomy and its higher authority.

And the role of our network, let's say that there was an issue of difference of opinion among churches, and let's say that there was the employment of, say, chapter 26 and paragraph 13 through 15, where it speaks of other churches gathering together to give counsel.

Well, that's all other churches can do in addressing a local church.

They can give counsel, they can give advice, but there is no authority externally that an association, this association anyway, or this network can impose upon the church.

The local church remains central, and our endeavors are as a network to strengthen the hand of the local church.

For example, a missionary isn't sent out by the network generically.

It is sent out by a particular church specifically. I mentioned a missionary who was sent off to Oman.

That is a missionary who's been sent by Arbor Church in Dayton, Ohio, and it is that church that is overseeing that missionary to Oman, and that missionary answers to that local church.

And even I think of the SBC, it'll be interesting to listen to what Josh Bight says in your interview tomorrow, but I think a real contrast, say, with us in the

SBC, for us, when we gather together for a general assembly once a year, this year it'll be in Jackson, Mississippi, each church only has one vote.

A church cannot send multiple visitors or multiple representatives to give multiple votes.

I know there are some associations where if a wealthy church can bring a busload of representatives, they can get a higher vote count.

But no, no, no, no, no. Each local church, when decisions are made for the network, has one vote, and therefore we desperately try to maintain that authority and that gravitas of each local church.

The network is there to serve the churches, not vice versa. We have a question from Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, a very loyal and faithful listener and financial supporter of this program.

He says, hello brothers Chris and Mark. I know you're independent and autonomous, but if one of the churches needs help in disciplining an elder, do you come alongside and help out?

Also, what are requirements for a church to become a part of the network? We already addressed the second question, but you might want to repeat some of those things.

But as far as the first aspect, I think that's one of the main reasons why

Reformed Baptists have had associations, is to assist, although not demonstrate authority over a local church, but to assist in things like when the discipline of an elder or even a member of a church is required.

Isn't that the case? Sure. In fact, let me just read from the 26th chapter of the

Confession, paragraph 15, and I think this really goes right to the heart of the matter.

It says there, in cases of difficulties or differences, either in points of doctrine or administration wherein either the churches in general are concerned, or any one church in their peace, union, and edification, or any member or members of any church are injured in or by any proceedings in centers not agreeable to truth and order, it is according to the mind of Christ that many churches, holding communion together, do, by their messengers, meet to consider and give their advice in or about that matter in difference, to be reported on to all the churches concerned.

Albeit, an important qualification. These messengers assembled are not entrusted with any church power, properly so called, or with any jurisdiction over the churches themselves to exercise any censures either over any churches or persons, or to impose their determination on the churches or officers.

And the 1689 is very careful to guard and protect that autonomy of a local church.

There may be controversy in a church, people on the outside may be gathered for counsel, but only counsel and advice.

There is not any de facto disciplining instrument that the network of churches has for that area.

But it might be a very helpful thing if a person is being disciplined by a local congregation, and he believes in all truth that his elders are in error by disciplining him or her to have these congregations, the leaders of these congregations, give their advice and counsel as to whether or not this person is rightly being disciplined.

Am I making sense here? Yes, that could possibly take place according to our confession, but again, the authority of each local church needs to be preserved.

And if a local church exercises a suspension or an excommunication, that ruling stands and cannot de facto be upended by the ruling of, certainly not in our network at all.

There is that respecting of the authority of the local church. And the only time that the authority of the local church would be usurped is the removal of a church from the

Reform Baptist Network. Say the leadership develops a seriously heretical view, or any heretical view, of theology, doctrine, and practice.

They abandon the Reform faith, or they begin to ordain women into the leadership.

Or you could go on and on with things that would make a church no longer qualified.

Yes, yes, I think a third John speaks of the danger of our maintaining fellowship with someone who does not continue to walk according to the truth.

And that certainly is a possibility that there can be the purging of the churches and someone would indeed be put out of the network.

That is a real distinct possibility. We have another anonymous listener who says,

I have been very dismayed over the division amongst

Reform Baptists who disagree on the interpretation of the Confession on impassibility.

I was wondering if your guest could just give a brief definition and description, if that is possible, of that controversy, and does the

Reform Baptist Network permit membership from people on both sides of the controversy?

Well, it's an enormous topic, and there's no way I could ever do it justice here in these brief moments.

However, I will say that there is a classical position on stability that embraces, obviously, the unchangeability of God.

That being said, when you look historically at various theologians who have written upon this, you can see someone like Charles Hodge, or B .B.

Warfield, or even Charles Spurgeon himself, who would hold a position that would be nuanced a bit differently in the way it's expressed than the classic position.

And just as I think it would be inappropriate for us if Charles Spurgeon was ministering in Boston, or Chicago, or St.

Louis, I would not separate from Charles Haddon Spurgeon with the nuanced position that he has on impassibility.

And so I think there's that one element where we have said that we call for a, not a strict adherence to the 1689, but a substantial adherence to the 1689.

And we do believe that there are places where there will be difference.

And again, specifically, our view is that what we mean by substantial subscription is confession to the doctrines expressed in each of the 1689 chapters, yet with liberty and charity over minor matters of wording, application, and nuance, not essential to those doctrines as a whole.

In fact, when it comes to the doctrine of impassibility, it is a very complex issue, and there are some nuances that I think we need to seek to preserve the unity, the spirit, and the bond of peace.

And of course, that would mean that you accept membership by people on both sides of the controversy.

Yes, we would. And in fact, I hope someday, perhaps when things cool down a little bit more, but I would love to have a friendly, collegiate, brotherly in -house debate between folks that respect each other as brothers in Christ over this issue, having people who can adequately defend the opposing views.

So if you are listening, and there are very important issues that we're addressing and we're touching on here.

These are not insignificant. That being said, I do think we really need the wisdom of God to be able to apply that text

I've been talking about from Mark 9 40. Man, Chris, the Lord Jesus said, if they're not against us, they're for us.

Amen. And just very quickly, so I don't get bombarded with emails from people asking what this controversy is about.

It involves the descriptions of God in the scriptures, having emotions and how we are to interpret that and how we are interpret that without violating the concept that God is a never changing

God. So as I said, one day, I hope to have a debate on the show, perhaps even a public debate at a venue of sorts on that issue.

Thank you, Anonymous. And by the way, for our anonymous listeners, if you are first time questioners, give me your full names, of course, via email,

I won't announce them on the air since you've requested to be anonymous. But give me your full names and your addresses so you can receive a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the of the NASB and compliments of the

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, who will be shipping those

Bibles out to you if you are first time questioners. I am going to be going now to our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. So if you would like to ask a question of your own,

I would strongly suggest you send your question immediately because we are rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Mark Chansky right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Pastor Mark Shansky, I'd like you to have several minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding the

Reformed Baptist Network. Great, Chris. How many minutes do I have here just for my homestretch pacing myself?

Well, the show will be over in a little over five minutes. Got it, got it. First, let me say this.

As I mentioned, the purpose of the Reformed Baptist Network is glorifying God through fellowship and cooperation and fulfilling the great commission to the end of the earth.

And our desire is that we would fetch thousands, tens of thousands of tons to sing

His praise. That's what we're about. So go on to the Reformed Baptist Network website and you can find out even how you can come and visit us at the

General Assembly in Jackson, Mississippi, September 20 to 23. We'd love to have you there.

We'd love to meet you, get an exposure for what we're about. Also, the way that you join the

Reformed Baptist Network, you can find that there. It's a matter of filling out an application and resolving it with your church to join, embracing the 1689

Confession of Faith, attending a General Assembly, and then there's a vote that's made on churches receiving them into membership, and there's that locking arms together.

We began, as I said, with 2016 with 26 churches.

We've basically doubled that now. We're very thankful for the kind of growth that the Lord has given to us, and we've got more and more churches who are enthused about this.

Even when you become a part of the Reformed Baptist Network, I've shared various things regarding church planting and missionary sending, but also there's that church fellowshipping element.

In fact, we have a pastor's fellowship where we've been able to get together for Zoom meetings with, oh, 40 up to 50 pastors at one time talking about themes over the month like COVID.

How's your church handling it and being able to share with each other the highs and the lows of that?

Or psychotropic drugs. What do we do when our people are on meds and they examine it?

What do the Scriptures say about this? Or, even most recently, we addressed the theme of marijuana.

Coming to a church near you in the sense that, like in Michigan, marijuana has now become legal, and what do we do when a church member is getting high every

Thursday and says, what's the difference between my having a marijuana joint and another brother's having a glass of wine with his steak?

And so how do we deal with these things as pastors? It's really helpful when we have fellowship and friendship with each other in these kinds of intimate, close connections that we have with people in the

Network. Also in the Network, we have what we call a monthly prayer guide, where a month has 31 days.

There are 31 different prayer requests from our buffet of missionaries that we have, and it's very helpful in constructing a prayer meeting or even one's own personal life to be able to pray from pole to pole and from east to west regarding what the

Lord is doing. And we also have a Reformed Baptist Network monthly that we send out where we get updates from various churches and then little devotionals that are there.

All these things cultivate the relationships that we have together as churches.

So I invite you to ponder. Come on along and just consider being part of the Reformed Baptist Network because there's much work to be done, and as I've said before, many hands make light work.

Praise God. And we have time to squeeze in one last question.

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, and he says, what do you believe is the greatest controversy that divides

Reformed Baptists today? What do

I believe is the greatest controversy that divides Reformed Baptists today?

Well, I guess I would say it's the controversy of the heart in the sense that among us in our individual churches and among us in our inter -church relationships, it's the controversy with the heart and the issue of pride and the issue of the need to cultivate humility.

I just think of the importance of men humbling themselves under the mighty hand of God in due time will be raised up, whereas often it's that pride that can be so divisive among us.

So I'd say the battle really resides in our hearts, and we need the

Spirit of God to enable us to bear the fruit of the Spirit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self -control.

Amen. And there is a new division that has risen about the

Textus Receptus, a group who believe the only Bible we should be using is one based on the

Textus Receptus. In English, that would be the King James Bible, that, from my knowledge of the

Reformed Baptist history, was nearly absent for decades until recently.

But that's another topic for another day, and I want to make sure that our listeners have the website for Harbor Reformed Baptist Church in Holland, Michigan, harborchurchholland .org,

harborchurchholland .org, and the Reformed Baptist Network can be found at reformedbaptistnetwork .com.

reformedbaptistnetwork .com. Thank you so much, Pastor Mark Chansky, for being, once again, such a superb guest.

I want to thank everybody for listening today, especially those who took the time to write. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater