April 19, 2023 Show with Robert Spilman & Will Cole on “Fixing What’s Broke: How Relationships Work”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 19th day of April, 2023.

Once in a while, I meet someone at one of my Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastors luncheons that is doing something that I think would be of great interest to our listening audience, and that is what is bringing about this program today.

Will Cole, who is pastor of St. Matthew Lutheran Church in Millerstown, Pennsylvania, which is a congregation of the

Association of Free Lutheran Congregations, has attended several of my Iron Sharpens Iron Radio free pastors luncheons, and this most recent one, he brought with him flyers promoting an event that he is having coming up very soon, and in about a week,

I think it's a week from this Saturday, the theme of this seminar that he is hosting at St.

Matthew Lutheran Church of Millerstown, Pennsylvania, is Fixing What's Broke, How Relationships Work, featuring

Robert Spillman, who is a retired pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod for 55 years in North Carolina and New York State, and a retired certified educator in the

Association for Clinical Pastoral Education, who for 30 years ran a program training pastors in pastoral care and leadership.

But first of all, let me welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for the first time,

Pastor Will Cole. It's great to have you on the program today, Will. Oh, it's great to be here, thank you.

And let me know how you enjoyed, whether or not you enjoyed the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon this past Thursday. Well, I've been to three of them, and I've liked every one.

I mean, most of your speakers I haven't heard of yet, but, you know, I've been able to get something out of all of them.

It's been wonderful. Well, it was great to have you there again. And also, let me welcome to the program for the first time,

Robert Spillman. It's great to have you on the show today. Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it.

Well, as we do every time we have this program, when we feature a guest who is a pastor, like Will is, first of all, we'd like to hear something about the congregation where you pastor,

Will, St. Matthew Lutheran Church of Millerstown, Pennsylvania. And also, since you're a first -time guest, tell us something about, in summary form, your testimony of salvation, any kind of religious atmosphere that you may have been raised in, and any kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Perhaps you were even raised from infancy in a

Christian home. It might even have been a Lutheran home. But tell us, first of all, about St.

Matthew Lutheran Church of Millerstown. Well, it's a small congregation.

Outside of Millerstown, we're literally that light shining on the hill, because there's nothing else there.

But yeah, it's a small church. Very friendly. We're informal.

I mean, I normally preach in a polo shirt. I mean, they're so informal, they make me look high church.

I think you're the first Lutheran pastor I ever met that preaches in a polo shirt.

You know, but it works in that area. And, you know, I honestly don't think that God really cares too much what we wear, whether it's a collar, shirt and tie, almond stole or whatever, you know, as long as we're presentable and respect the office and, more importantly, him.

And I know that your church is a member of the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations.

Tell us about that. Yeah, well, the AFLC, it's an association of independent

Lutheran churches that work together. We are grounded on the

Word of God. We are Bible -believing. We are conservative, you know, and we do our best, you know, that everything that comes out of our mouth should be from Scripture, from that pulpit.

Amen. And just out of curiosity, are there any significant differences to the denomination that your fellow guest,

Robert Spillman, is in, the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod? I know it's another very conservative

Lutheran denomination in stark contrast to ELCA, the

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is neither either evangelical nor Lutheran.

And for some reason, I'm hearing an echo on my end. I don't know why. But obviously, the

ELCA Church, I'm not saying that every single congregation or pastor in that denomination, but it is largely an apostate organization.

And I know that the Missouri Synod Lutherans and the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations are seeking to be a light, not only for true historic

Lutheranism, but much more importantly, biblical Christianity. But is there any significant difference?

Well, I mean, the main differences are cultural. The Missouri Synod is German. You know, originally,

I actually grew up in the Missouri Synod. And the AFLC, most of those folks came out of Norway.

But I would say the biggest claim to fame for the AFLC is how we're run.

We're independent, but we work together. Yeah, that actually sounds like some of the

Reformed Baptist associations or Baptists historically have believed in the independence and autonomy of each local congregation.

But they do, on occasion, form associations where congregations from all over the

United States and even all over the world can cooperate on things like missions and other issues.

Yeah, it's pretty much that. Well, if anybody wants more details on St.

Matthew's Lutheran Church of Millerstown, Pennsylvania, go to stmatthewpa .org.

And if you want to find out more about the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations, go to aflc .org,

aflc .org. And if you could now, Pastor Will, give us a summary of your salvation testimony.

Well, sure. Well, let's see here. My mother grew up Pentecostal.

My dad grew up Methodist. And they weren't really big churchgoers in the beginning.

But they actually found my home church through politics. My dad was big into the

Republican Party at that point. And one of the major players was also the church secretary.

And I needed a place for preschool. So there you go. I was baptized at the age of five.

So I grew up in the faith. Very shy, though.

In fact, a lot of folks actually were shocked that I ended up becoming a pastor.

But during high school, I think, was when I really began to grow strong in my faith.

And it seemed like God was preparing me big time. Not only with scripture, and I got big into the creation evolution debate with folks like ICR, Institute for Creation Research and Answers in Genesis.

But he also helped me get out of my shell. Because I had huge stage fright.

I was very much introverted. So to break that, I did stand up comedy.

And a talent show at the high school took first place in the comedy division, bought a tank of gas.

And so about halfway through high school, when my parents got a divorce, that was like when

God was really pushing me towards ministry. And so in my junior year there,

I was looking for colleges and ended up picking, you know,

Concordia College in Bronxville, New York, which is a Missouri Synod school to do the pre -seminary program.

Also wanted a degree in music there, too. But that didn't work out. All the classes conflicted, and I ended up having to choose one.

You know, and I know I sing purdy, but God didn't intend me to be a professional singer.

And then I went to seminary in Canada because it was cheaper outside in Niagara Falls in St.

Catharines, Ontario. And that's where I actually met Pastor Bob here for the first time, although we really weren't close yet.

Let's see here. And, you know, that's when, you know, God really started honing the skills.

Preaching seemed to be a natural gift, but like one of the professors, you know,

I kind of got from him. He's a good preacher. He doesn't know what he's preaching, but man, he can preach it, you know.

So, you know, I think I had to work on the content a bit there.

And so I did that, graduated with my

MDiv and ended up in Scranton, Pennsylvania in a Missouri Synod church. Left there, went back to Rochester, and that's where, you know,

Pastor Bob and I really got close because I took his CPE class. So, yes.

Now, for some reason, the echo has come back. Oh, now it's stopped, thankfully.

It seems that, according to what you've said, that you have no knowledge of having a period of your life where you believe you were a rebel against Christ.

It seems as if, unless I missed something, you believe that you were saved by Christ, Jesus, and His grace and mercy when you were so young.

You cannot remember a point in time in your life where you did not love the

Lord and want to follow Him. Am I gathering that correctly? I mean, that's true, but I mean, there are times in all of our lives when we do something stupid.

Oh, of course. You know, and it affects us, and, you know, I mean, there was a time, like, during my first church where, you know,

I really didn't trust Jesus like I should, that He was going to take care of all of my needs, you know, and, you know,

I kind of took that into my own hands, and it all blew up in my face, you know, and I needed to go through a major period of humbling.

Sure. Yeah, because we all do dumb things, and I happen to be an extremely stubborn person, and so God had to humble me big, you know, but I learned my lessons.

I was humbled. Pastor Bob was a big instrument in God with that and, you know, recovering from that and, you know, getting me back on the right path.

And then after, you know, after that, actually, shortly after CPE, I met my wife, which the funny thing is, evidently, she reached out to me through an online dating app while I was in CPE, and I never responded because, well, when you take

CPE, you have no life. It just, it takes so much time, and I was also working a secular job, too, at that time.

It's like, there is no life, but I mean, miraculously, and I think

God had something to do with that, she reached out again. That time, it only took me two weeks to respond, you know, so, and about 13 months after that, we were married, and then

I was working on a church plant with the Lutheran brethren and learning how to do it, which the church plant itself ended up failing, but, you know, there were some people that came to faith, and it kind of put me into another line of ministry of revitalization, because it's the same toolbox as church planting, you just use them a bit differently.

And so then I actually ended up taking another call to a church in Pennsylvania, this time with LCMC, Lutheran Congregations and Mission for Christ, and I was there for about eight months.

And then, to make a long story, well, after that, we went to North Carolina, where I was in a major car accident, and that slowed me up for a bit.

But during that time, I ended up writing a book, my first book there, Bumps and Bruises, Making It Through Alive.

Believe it or not, it had absolutely nothing to do with the car accident, but I don't do nothing very well.

And so since I was confined to like a wheelchair and stuff for three months, I had to do something, so I wrote that.

And then, you know, after about four years of looking and praying,

I ended up here at St. Matthew with the AFLC, and shortly before that, you know,

I ended up writing another book, this one on marriage, just because I had a hard time finding some good, you know, marriage counseling material, stuff that I would actually like to use and that I thought could be beneficial to try to cover as much as I could.

And, you know, I've been here for almost three years. We came here

August 1st of 2020. I have my wife,

Nicole, and we have two kids. My son just turned nine. His name is Martin.

His birthday was on the 15th. And then my daughter is five.

Her name's Cynthia. Well, wonderful names.

Now, Bob Spillman, I still hear that echo for some reason in my voice.

I hope it's my microphone or anything here. Okay, well, you've already explained to me before the show that you are retired from the pastorate in the

Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, and you were pastoring for 55 years before retirement in North Carolina and New York State.

And you're also a retired certified educator in the Association for Clinical Pastoral Education.

Can you tell us about that organization? Yes, that's an organization that attempts to help pastors primarily and persons becoming chaplains, could include laypeople as well, who want to hone their pastoral skills working with people in crisis situations, originally primarily in the hospital setting.

So you will find lots of hospitals in the area, including in Harrisburg, your area, and around the country that have clinical pastoral education programs where pastors and seminarians and laypeople as well will come to be trained to be more effective in their bedside manner, relating to people in the struggles of health care, dealing with loss, grief, and so forth.

And essentially, to simplify it, hone and strengthen their ability to listen to people when they're in pain.

And so let's hear your story, a summary of your testimony of salvation, because there are, even though there's one gospel and one means by which our

Lord Jesus Christ saves lost souls, there are different stories, many different stories in the body of Christ on how and when people in their lives discover that gospel and when our

Lord arrests them and grabs a hold of them and brings them to a saving relationship with Him.

Right. So let's hear your story. Well, I would like to say that my story, and probably for all of us in many respects, is generations deep in terms of the faith.

Now, not all people come from a totally new on the outside. Mine was not that way. I am a fourth generation clergy in the

Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod from my father's side. My father was a

Lutheran pastor. His father was, and my father's mother had five or six siblings who were pastors, and her father was.

So I don't want to complicate this too much, but it goes back four generations. So you could say, you know, after my baptism at age two months, many years ago, almost 80 years ago now, really,

I shouldn't get into age here, that there was a path there.

I'm the only son of my two, an older and younger sister, and only son.

And I would say there probably was, in that sense, a path set, would

I follow in my father's footsteps and his forebears. And I fought against that,

Chris. I did not go to the regular seminary that Lutherans would go to. I went to a secular university up here in western

New York, University of Rochester, nearby Buffalo here, was intent in going into the sciences, ended up going into history, but it was while I was at the

University of Rochester that this, well, I'm actually getting ahead of myself. Let me go back.

Before I got to the University of Rochester, I spent four years at a Christian prep school on Long Island in New York State called

Stony Brook School. Oh, yeah, that's where the late James Montgomery Boyce was a student when he was a kid.

That's right. That's right. And there was a headmaster. We lived on campus. So I've been away at school since freshman in high school.

Frank Gabeline was the headmaster. And this was a different sense or variety, if you will, of Christianity than I grew up in.

The staid Lutheran biblical focus that I had, you know, very, very orthodox.

But you would say less feeling oriented, less into the experience of the spirit, certainly, than other forms of Christianity in the church.

Out at Stony Brook, that was different. We learned to give our testimony when we were in the boys choir, you know.

Here I was a Lutheran giving my testimony like anybody else about how I learned about Christ.

Now, let me give you an example. I don't want to spend too much time on this, but here was a clash of two parts of my life.

I love this this sense of feeling in the faith. And yet I was rooted in my

Lutheranism. I had a teacher at the school. In fact, he lived in the dorm where I lived. I was a sophomore and he knew my dad was a

Lutheran pastor, Chris. He knew that. And he came up to me one day, was in the afternoon, and he said,

Bob, is your father saved? Is your father saved?

And here I was standing between two worlds. He may have meant something slightly different.

Did my father have a born again experience? I didn't know that. My father was steeped in the faith from his early years and lived out a faithful life as a pastor for many, many years.

So how do I respond to that question? I responded, I said, yes, he is.

He is. He's a born again Christian in his own way. And that set me kind of on more solid ground.

But at the same time, I was searching for something more than my tradition. So I went to college,

University of Rochester, not knowing what I wanted to do. Got involved with IVCF, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

Very rooted in spirituality and the life of faith and giving one's testimony.

And I love that. I also love joining a fraternity and being a part of that life.

And so I'm thinking that there are two pieces of me that are kind of working together, often colliding, until I finally kind of work that through.

And over the course of those years, I mean, I stay true to the faith, I think. Over the course of that, those years in college decided, yes, the greatest thing

I can do in life is to learn about the faith and to share it with others. So it was kind of trying,

I was thinking about faith almost as a science in a way. Strange, you know,

I can understand this stuff and make sense of it and help people gravitate to it.

I think that's all good. But I was missing something, I think, more deeply about the sense of the presence of God that just overwhelms us in the liturgy, if you will, and in our personal relationship, in the reading of Scripture and so forth.

And then I wanted something that gradually grew. And it actually, when

I went to seminary, wasn't a Lutheran seminary, another seminary, I got connected to a

Lutheran church that was highly motivated to be active in the inner city church, in the community, and with a pastor who was just a spiritual presence.

And that really reinforced my sense of the presence of Christ as in my personal life and in the liturgy of the church and the faith.

That made a lot. And the path kind of got set as I went along from that point on.

Let me stop at that point. Okay. Well, we have to go to our first station break.

And if you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And with a theme like fixing what's broke, how relationships work, I'm assuming there will be people that do have personal and private questions that they want to ask.

So obviously I will grant your request to remain anonymous if you make that request. But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence.

And let me take this time also to announce before I forget to announce it later.

Especially since we have Lutherans on the program today, which is not very common on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, but we do have our

Lutheran brethren. And I don't mean that in the sense of the denomination Lutheran brethren, but I mean my brothers in Christ who are

Lutheran. We do have them on the program on occasion as guests. And we have one who has grown in his notoriety.

And people have been contacting me both in and outside of Lutheranism, raving about his recent book that he has written.

Chad Bird, who many of you may recognize that name, scholar in residence at 1517.

He has written a book called Limping with God, Jacob and the Old Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship.

Chad Bird will be on the program, God willing, on June 21st, 4 to 6 p .m.

As always, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. So you might want to mark your calendars for our discussion with Chad Bird.

We had previously announced an earlier date, but due to providential circumstances that arose, we had to change the date of our interview.

So as of today, June 21st is the date we are intending and planning to have

Chad on the program. So mark your calendars for that. So now we're going to our break, as I mentioned.

And if you'd like to send in questions, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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and mentioning Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We are now back with our guests, Will Cole, pastor of St.

Matthew Lutheran Church in Millerstown, Pennsylvania, and Robert Spillman, who is a retired pastor in the

Lutheran Church Missouri Synod in North Carolina and New York State and also a retired certified educator in the

Association for Clinical Pastoral Education. We are discussing Fixing What's Broke, How Relationships Work, and that is also the theme of the upcoming conference on Saturday, April 29th from 10 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at St. Matthew Lutheran Church in Millerstown, Pennsylvania.

If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Before I go to any listener questions, I have something that I want to start our discussion with.

From my experience in my own life with relationships that I have had, whether it be my marriage to my precious late wife, whether it be my relationships with my parents, with my siblings, with my friends, with my colleagues at work, with my employers at work, with my neighbors, fellow congregants at church, pastors.

I could go on and on with every single relationship that we could possibly have.

But the reason why, in my experience, that problems arise is that we as Christians who are simultaneously sinners, each and every one of us sins more times per day, even per hour than we even realize.

But we fail to put the needs of others above our own.

We fail to view these people with whom we are having difficulty, especially if they are, if we're speaking of Christians, we fail to view them as people for whom

Christ shed his blood. And we, in the case of a marriage, husbands are failing to love their wives as Christ loved the church, and wives are failing to submit and respect their husbands.

And these truths are the basic truths that everybody who is a

Christian knows in their head as a teaching and a command to be obeyed or commands to be obeyed.

But we unconsciously or even consciously throw them out the window when it comes to conflict, because we want to be the one who is right.

We want to be the one who loses nothing as a result of the conflict. We want to be the one who is the victor in the conflict, etc.

Am I making sense here? And do you agree with me, Bob? Yeah, thank you.

That puts so well. It's almost as though, just to follow up on your thinking, people, when they get close to each other and deep love, and it starts out great, something happens that they get so intertwined that they lose their ability to think straight.

And I think you're onto something there. And what happens in close relationships is critical.

And it's almost as though we lose the values that we espouse in our marriage vows, in our faith, the

Ten Commandments, if you will, the guiding principles of our lives. And the same things happen with people who are close, not just in a marriage, but in the entire family and in other groups that are similar to families and that people get very close, such as in congregations or in communities, for that matter.

So I've always been interested in the question, how come people who are deeply rooted in their faith,

Christians, it could be other people. I understand that, too. The world is varied. But just our own faith, which we believe to be the true faith, how is it that while we are rooted in that and try to live by that, we go off the rails nonetheless?

And so I'm sort of restating your issue. I'm more than, how do you deal with that?

So I have been working with clergy for all these years and thoroughly enjoyed getting to know people in their ministry,

Will Cole being one of them over those years. And we've kept up in recent years. And they come and say,

I'm a pastor. I believe in the faith. The people believe in the faith. And yet we're at each other's throat.

What's going on here? How come it's not appreciated? I think there isn't one answer.

But I think having a perspective that enables us to stand back and see what happens to human beings when they get close to each other and how we go off the rails, not when we go separate, but when we get close, is very helpful.

And we can learn to be a little bit more responsible ourselves in close relationships when we do that.

So I would take the story of Adam and Eve. I'd go back to the very beginning, the garden, which is the original problem emerges.

These people are so close that they have no problem being naked totally in front of each other day and night, right?

In paradise, in the Garden of Eden. But yet when they're set a boundary, they're told not to do something.

Then one of them does it. How did that happen? You know, there's an enticement from outside.

I understand that from the serpent, Satan. All of a sudden, they are so close to each other that they fail to take responsibility and blame each other.

And that's been going on in human relationships since the garden. In fact, Adam even blames

God. The woman you gave me. Precisely. It's one of the most,

I mean, let's just say it's God's word, but on a human standpoint, it's so well written, isn't it? That Genesis, if we were to throw out the concept of original sin, we'd be so much worse off as a human creation, as in life.

I mean, it's there's something in all of us. And what

I have, what I'm amazed by, and I want in heaven, I want to learn more about I'd like the answer is when we are born again in Christ, the old nature persists.

It's different than it was. God has saved us. Yes, in Christ. But we still live nature and nurture.

We're nurtured in Christ, but the nature remains transformed. But yet we carry on the battle.

So I don't know what I'm saying in terms of if that gets to the question you have. But there's a grand paradox that I think starts at the very beginning, and it has more to do, and you hit it, loving one another and the importance of moving beyond blaming the other for the problem that we both have together, but rather looking toward oneself.

That's where I would go. And that's where this workshop is going to go a little bit. Yes, and in fact, when we who are

Christians sin and when we disobey God, our sins, although if we are truly children of God, will never result in the wrath of God because we are covered with the blood of Christ.

But at the same time, they are more reprehensible because we have been rescued by God from the dominion and enslavement to sin.

And yet we still do it. Whereas those who are unregenerate are still under that bondage.

So we have no excuse, but we still do it. What a remarkable thing. Yeah, you could say

I love that because you could say when Jesus saves through the cross and then he says we have to bear the cross.

I mean, if you don't want to deal with this issue of a full life and have go the easy way, uh, don't don't get into this.

That's why I think a lot of the clergy I worked with over the years and people in congregations and families say, look,

I'm trying to believe and I do believe. And yet I live with these same problems in relationships.

So I guess over the years, I've, you know, and Will's had his own experience with this. And I have my own as well, where I think things should be better.

You get home from church on a Sunday and then an argument ensues, you know, what's my responsibility in this?

Is it her fault? Come on. Yeah, it's both for sure. But I ought to focus on mine more than on hers because that's where I can do some work.

I think faith enables us to forgive and return to equilibrium quicker.

So what I've tried to do with clergy is to say, hey, congregations function like human systems, like every other system.

We're a part of the real world. Let's learn about that. Let's observe it. Now, almost like suspending judgment for a moment against one's spouse, oneself, one's parishioners and say, how did this come to be?

What are some of the things that you can see historically that have come, that have kind of built up to this current point of crisis?

That's helpful to calm people down and to return to their, well, what shall

I say, their values. And we have to go to our midway break right now.

And by the way, I want to remind Will that you may feel free at any time you hear a lull in the conversation when you think it's an appropriate time to interject a question of your own.

Please feel free to do that. And don't wait for me to ask you to ask a question of Bob Spillman.

And good for me to let you all speak, too. And we're going to our break right now.

It's the longer than normal break in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the

FCC requires of them to use this time to localize Iron Trump and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida, with their own public service announcements.

We are simultaneously are globally heard commercials. So please write down the contact information of as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers, but also send in your questions to Robert Spillman and Will Kold, Chris Arnzen at gmail .com,

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia, again for the

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Scott Brown here with Church and Family Life. I hope you can join me and Chris Arnson at my national conference,

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Before I return to our discussion with Robert Spillman and Will Cole on fixing what's broke, how relationships work,

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click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, I want to let our listeners know that from April 28th through the 30th, my dear friend

Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries, who will be our guest tomorrow, is going to be speaking at Grace Life Church of Anvil, Pennsylvania.

The meeting begins on Friday of that weekend, a special 11 a .m.

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On Saturday, there are two open sessions on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, 9 to 1015 a .m.

and 1045 a .m. to 12 noon. Lunch will be provided by the church, and child care is available.

And on Sunday of that weekend, Justin Peters will speak at their 9 a .m. worship service, followed by a

Q &A session at 1045 a .m. For more details, go to justinpeters .org,

justinpeters .org, forward slash events, forward slash gracelife -getaway.

And you can also look for Grace Life Church of Anvil, PA, on your search engine.

And I am hoping to be there myself, but please tune in tomorrow, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, to hear

Justin Peters on this program. Also, folks, if you are without a biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, no matter where you live in the world,

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I have helped many people in our audience find churches, sometimes within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that could be you, too.

So if you are without a biblically faithful home, a church home, send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Robert Spillman and Will Kull on fixing what's broke, how relationships work, and also a question on the seminar coming up in Millerstown, PA.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com. I'd like to go to Will right now.

Will, was there any pressing issue? Obviously, we don't want you to reveal any of the problems in the personal lives of your congregation, but what was the pressing issue that compelled you to have this seminar with Robert Spillman at St.

Matthew Lutheran Church of Millerstown? Well, honestly, I just saw a lot of pain within the people throughout

Erie County and the surrounding area. There are some congregations in the area that are leaving one church body for another.

This would help them. Some are leaving one church body and going independent. You know, some church bodies are more involved with their congregations while others are hardly involved.

How do you run a congregation? Well, the principles are the same because the congregation is full of relationships.

You know, it's all a system. But in terms of St.

Matthew personally, there hasn't been an event or trouble that has happened there other than our desire to reach out and to help.

And so other than my training in family systems, mostly from Pastor Bob Spillman, although I did receive some while I was at the seminary as well, you know, this is something that we're looking to and we're happy to offer the area.

Great. One thing I'd like to touch on, Bob, is that before the break, you said something, and I think it deserves clarification.

You were talking about the fact that we who are Christians and our churches as well are part of the world.

Now, obviously, in a very real sense, that is true.

But don't you think that very often the problems that arise in the very issue over which we are discussing—relationships—the problems that often arise involve our forgetting that as Christians we are in the world but not of the world, and we must be very careful not to seek the world's answers to our problems, and we are to seek what

God has to say in inerrant, infallible, and God -breathed word?

Isn't this a key issue of where we fail over and over again is when we attempt to find the true answers in the world?

Well, that's a great way to put it. Important question. I think it's twofold.

I think it's paradoxical, and I don't know if I'm saying that simply because I'm a

Lutheran, because that's kind of the view of Luther, that you hold the world and the church in a paradoxical relation.

There's a doctrine of the two kingdoms where you live in the world of faith in the church, and you live in the world of the world, so to speak.

You live—you have the kingdom of the right hand and the left hand, and you operate in both. So you are a good citizen.

You function. You have to think about what your political views are, what's important. Your faith informs those things, but they are nonetheless two separate things, but they intersect.

So, yeah, I don't see—I think being a

Christian doesn't mean you don't study the world as much as anyone else, and I think some of our best guys are our evangelical scientists who are doing the work, studying the world in many different dimensions.

Like Jason Lyle, I could mention, who is a reformed Christian, young earth creationist, but a great guy.

Yeah, you would think that these are diametrically opposed worlds. I don't think so.

So you'd say, how could a scientist be a believer in God, you know, something greater that you cannot—you can't study.

You come to by faith, and it's a part of your life, something bigger. But to me, that goes back to the way you think about the world, that the world itself is—and our experience of it is finite, and there's something far bigger out there that is bigger than all of us, that we are a part of, and that's the nature and presence of God.

And thank God—let me use that word—that God enters our world in the form of a person whom one can see and sense and hear the words, although years ago,

Jesus to Christ, and connect us to what is divine. That's what I believe. So I think, in some sense,

I would say, Chris, I'm not suspending faith at all, but I'm saying that's the backdrop.

But I want to almost say, let me try to clear my brain and become stupid, as though I know nothing, and just observe the world.

What do I see? Try to get away from any presuppositions I may have about what should be and look at what is.

When you do that with relationships, you begin to see how people function more clearly, and including your own self.

I think the hardest person I can observe in this world neutrally, factually, is my own self, because I'm too close.

I need to separate myself out. But that doesn't take away anything from faith, because it's from the perspective of my faith, belief in Jesus Christ, that I can honestly look at the world and say that God's forgiving presence is here among us and transforms us.

Yeah, just a quick word on science. Science has never, ever disproved anything taught in the

Bible, although there are scientists who think that is true. It is apparently a false concept.

In fact, archaeology, over and over again, overthrows the former beliefs of atheists and secularists about the true cities of the

Bible, what existed, and true figures from biblical history, and so on. Yeah, let me give you an example.

Back in, was it 57? No, a long time ago, I was at that school, Stony Brook School, and Uri Gagarin was the first man into space sent by the

Soviet Union, right? And he is reputed to have said while he circled the

Earth in his Soyuz spacecraft once or twice, he's reputed to have said, well, there's no

God up here. You know, there's no God here. And that's laughable.

That's such a simplistic, materialistic view that, I mean, fundamentally, it's anti -science.

You know? Yes. It's narrow, and God calls us to think more broadly than that.

Anyway, my world is much more limited than that. I just want to look at families and see how they function, and help people be a little less critical of themselves and the other person in the relationship, and maybe get a better handle on what their part is in the problem.

To do that, well, you have to live by faith and forgiveness. And by the way, since you brought up that Russian astronaut,

I think, don't they call them cosmonauts or something? Yeah, yeah, cosmonauts. That was it. I want to let our listeners know that you can go to the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archive, and you can hear my interview, providentially, with a

Lutheran astronaut, Colonel Jeffrey Williams. And he is the author of The Work of His Hands, which has a forward by Dr.

John MacArthur. And I think it was a fascinating interview. In fact, I got most of the questions for Colonel Jeffrey Williams from students of Christian schools all over the

United States prior to the live program airing. So it was a very unique program.

That took place, by the way, on November 23, 2015, not long after I relaunched the program here in Pennsylvania, after moving here.

But he is Colonel Jeffrey Williams is a Missouri Synod Lutheran, interestingly enough.

Um, let me go to a first -time questioner, David in Plant City, Florida.

He asks a question that could very easily take a week's worth of programs, maybe a whole month's worth of programs, maybe a year's worth of programs to answer.

But his question is, how do divorced spouses find their way back to a friendly relationship?

Obviously, that is something very important for children to not be overly and unnecessarily traumatized and mentally scarred when their parents are fomenting hatred towards each other.

And ironically, I have found myself, I don't know if this sounds bizarre to you, but when

I have seen divorced couples not long after their divorce at barbecues and other events where they're very friendly with each other.

In fact, they're very friendly with the new spouses of their ex -spouses.

Sometimes I get mad because I say to myself, why didn't you make the effort to be this way before it came to a divorce?

But tell us your thoughts on this very complicated question, which could not obviously be answered in a cookie cutter fashion.

How do divorced spouses find their way back to a friendly relationship? Wow, Will, do you want to say a few thoughts first, perhaps?

I mean, I have personally experienced this from the point of a child, you know, because my parents were divorced when

I was in high school, you know. But basically, you know, forgiveness is key, you know, thinking about someone other than yourself, like, oh,

I don't know, the kids. Because remember, there's only one winner in a divorce and they win every time.

And that would be the lawyers. Everybody else loses, you know, because God has always met one man for one woman for life.

You know, and when we get in our own way with our own sin, our own selfishness, our own arrogance, our sinful nature, you know, then that's going to lead to problems with marriages, with every other relationship.

So I think step one is to give it to God, you know, just like we should be giving our marriages to God when we go up to that altar and make vows.

Yes, it's to one another, but it's also a covenant with God. Jesus needs to be the center of the marriage.

And when he's not, well, then we're in trouble because of our sinful nature.

Man, we might as well just, it's like, you know, trying to walk without two feet.

We can't do it. And so, you know, to get out of our own ways, to seek forgiveness, both for the spouse and for ourselves, you know, because it does take two to make a marriage.

I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, and it also takes two to make a friendship, which is what the question was specifically on the couple after a divorce.

And all's I know is that I am constantly reminded whenever I am holding onto bitterness and anger and even hatred towards someone,

I have been often counseled by Christians, you've got to bomb that person with love.

You've got to bomb that person, drop nuclear warheads of love upon them.

And heap hot coals on their heads, as the scriptures say. But you could go ahead,

Bob, with your thoughts. Yeah, no, excuse me. The thought that I had was that it really,

I think the hardest thing in life is self -evaluation. And that goes back to the garden in Genesis, Garden of Eden, Genesis 3, blaming the other for the problem rather than seeing your part in it.

And I love that the text in John chapter one, where Saint John says, and the word became flesh, full of two things, grace and truth, grace and truth.

And grace would be, it would be, how do you love yourself when you've gone through hell in a relationship?

And you have the awareness, yeah, the other's really been a pain, but you've also contributed to it, you know it.

And it may be unclear how that all plays out. How do you grace yourself? Well, that's what God does. You are still, you are a child of God, by grace through faith in Christ.

Then the piece is, what God asks of us is then to use truth, which means a laser focused, a no holds barred self -assessment on what is my part in this.

But you can't do that without the grace. And if that truth, what that means is looking at the relationship and maybe with the help of a third person, another person, and asking the question, what's my part?

It's a system, the marriage. And she does stuff to you and you do stuff to her. And it kind of spirals and it goes off the rails.

And we come to our senses when it's, you know, like the prodigal son in the pigsty. But you can move out of that.

And with some awareness, you can begin to see what triggers, what triggers and so forth, back and forth.

Now, it's the divorce has occurred. It's remarkable. I don't know how people do it. I've never been.

Divorce is not, and I think these things are also prevalent in families. Look at families and you'll see a spectrum of pathologies or problems or issues.

In some families, it'll be cancer. In some families, it'll be alcohol. In some families, it will be broken relationships.

In my own family, honestly, it tends to be mental illness. Alzheimer's and also people going off the rails mentally.

That's a personal statement. So I may, so we have less divorce. That doesn't mean that these exclude each other, obviously.

Um, some families just tend to have more problems than others. But as you look at your family and observe it with a more neutral and graceful eye, not blaming any one part of it, but seeing how it fits together better, how one thing feeds off the other, you can get a little more perspective.

I think you can share that with the person you what used to love and you're still in relationship with after a divorce.

And you can even, I don't know. I've never done it. So maybe I'm Pollyanna. I think it's possible to then have some conversations that are honest.

Yeah. At the very least, you can learn to be cordial. And I think that leads to that. People may never get back together again, although I've seen that.

You know, that's what we all pray for, you know, because I mean, God can save any relationship.

And there have been some that have been divorced and have gotten remarried. Yeah. And if you have children, you're always in relationship anyway, and you better be.

Don't put it on the kid. No. We have an anonymous listener. Oh, by the way, let me let our first questioner know.

David in Plant City, Florida. Since you are a first time questioner, you have won a free

New American Standard Bible. So please email me your full mailing address in Plant City, Florida.

So that CVBBS .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that Bible out to you.

And we want to thank the publishers of the NASB and also our friends at CVBBS .com

for providing this Bible for our listeners who are first time questioners at no expense to us or to our audience.

And we have an anonymous listener who says, isn't it very important that we not poison the ex -spouse to our children and constantly run them down and try to get these children to fall out of love with the ex -spouse?

I've seen this over and over again, and it is horrible. Uh, I couldn't agree more.

I would call putting, I would say that putting down your ex -spouse is a form of child abuse.

That's a good way. Yeah, because what it does is it puts the child in the middle.

That's called a triangle. And the child gets the stress, gets the stress or gets distress.

If you want to put it that way. This caller is right on in my book. In fact,

I know a woman, uh, she's actually the woman who led me to Christ, who manifests a, a really wonderful spirit, uh, in regard to her adult children, uh, when it comes to her ex -spouse.

And unfortunately, uh, her ex -spouse is prone to, uh, playing games with their emotions and mental manipulation and saying very cruel and hateful things to them and doing very cruel and hateful things to them.

In fact, he abandoned these, uh, children when they were very young for nine years of their life.

And my friend had to actually hire a private investigator to find this person, uh, to provide child support and so on.

Uh, but, uh, she has constantly said to her kids, uh, you don't have to like your father and you don't have to, uh, be a doormat for your father, but you do need to love and respect your father.

Uh, and even though she has been the object of his cruelty, even beyond what he has demonstrated to her children, she has such a godly spirit about her and a humble spirit and a, and a, and a zeal to obey the scriptures that children are to honor their father and mother that she, uh, refuses to, uh, to stoke the flames of their anger toward him.

So I just have to say that, that there are people out there doing that in a, in a wonderful way.

Uh, obviously we're all sinners. Nobody's doing anything perfectly, but, uh, that is,

I think, uh, uh, do you have anything that you'd like to say about those words that she has reminded her children of?

You don't have to like your father, but you do have to love and respect him. Yeah, it's interesting.

I, I ran across an article by John Roseman. Uh, I think

John, I think he's a Christian. I'm not. Will, you may know because you've had contact with him, the child, the psychologist,

John. Yeah, he's a Christian. Yeah, you're right. And, and I don't want to get into the weeds here, but in this article, he says there are parents who do not deserve respect.

And, but that doesn't mean they are still not still parents. And then you, you still have to maybe children have to deal with them in some reasonable, uh, human way.

So you don't, I, I would, I would agree. You, one of the ways to deal with that to, uh, this is a big one.

There are bad people in this world and I'm part of it. Uh, you know, we're all part of that, as you just said,

Chris, in some way. Uh, but obviously there's some in an objective level who are just, well, they mess around more.

Okay. That's, that's probably the truth, but okay. That, that said,

I think you can understand those people more. And in that sense, gain some respect maybe by understanding their family a little better and what they, what they dealt with, not to excuse the inexcusable, uh, my sin is my responsibility.

But I, when I put it in context and look at the past and how the former generations have formed us, have influenced us, you get a little bit more of a, of a sense.

I get it. I get it. How this thing evolved. And now I better watch myself cause

I'm part of it too. Yes. Obviously there, as I said before, cookie cutter answers can be dangerous.

And there are people out there who are satanically wicked parents, people who have sexually molested their own children and beaten their children to the point of long lasting, if not permanent injury.

So obviously there is, it's not a carte blanche kind of a thing where, uh, we are to be sweet and, uh, cheery at all times with all people, even if they're, they are our parents.

But at the same time, we have to look at them as, uh, being a possible future converts to Christ.

Yeah. And, uh, until they're dead while, when there is, or while there is life, there is hope.

So, yeah. And even St. Paul qualifies this in Ephesians chapter six, first four verses, children obey your parents in the

Lord for it is right. Honor your father and mother. This is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.

Fathers do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the

Lord. Amen. We have to go to our final break. It's going to be more brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. Chris Arnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away.

Going to be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnsen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference that's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnsen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

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Chris Arnsen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnsen while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Puritan Reformed is a

Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

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We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

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Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

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Scott Brown here with Church and Family Life. I hope you can join me and Chris Arnson at my national conference,

The Chief End of Man. It's in Ridgecrest, North Carolina, right next to Asheville. At this event, you'll hear

Paul Washer, Joel Beakey, Scott Anial, Josh Bice, and many others, really my favorite preachers.

We're offering a special discount to listeners of this show. All you need to do is enter the code

IRON during checkout, and you'll receive a 50 % discount off the registration fee.

We're also doing a pre -conference with Paul Washer and Jeff Johnson geared toward singles on May 3rd and 4th.

For more information, go to churchandfamilylife .com. Don't forget the code IRON during checkout.

I really hope to see you there. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcroft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcroft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcroft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

That's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Or call 678 -954 -7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, and Mattai in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise.

And yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift, or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.

Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

Westminster Larger Catechism, titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larchville, Pennsylvania, and the

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Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hello, my name is Anthony Eugenio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly

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Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Uvino, and thanks for listening. If you love

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And I want to thank

Pastor Alan Dunn and the congregation of Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey.

I just heard word from Pastor Dunn today that they have renewed their advertising contract with us, helping us to remain on the air with their financial support.

I have one update from the commercial that you just heard. They have a new website that we have not had the opportunity to change in the commercial yet.

The new website is gcbc, for Grace Covenant Baptist Church, that's gcbc -nj .org,

a much easier website to remember, gcbc -nj .org, and hopefully we will have that in the revised commercials as soon as possible.

Well, I would like Bob Spellman first to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

And Will Cole, you can follow him. Thank you for the opportunity to have us both here today.

I hope that it is helpful to, under the concept, under the reality of God's grace and forgiveness, for each of us to look at our relationships and to examine more clearly our part in them and to know that God can enable us to do that and work on our relationships and take more responsibility for our part and then move toward others in a more graceful and challenging and hopeful way, stating what we believe and what we hope to have from others.

So that's kind of a summary. Will, I know, wants to say something about the seminar as well and anything he has on his mind.

All right, just some quick housekeeping here. There is an

RSVP for this event because there is a free lunch and we just want to make sure there's enough food.

That is by Saturday, but if you get them in by Sunday, a day is not going to kill us.

Now, you can either email me at pastorwillcole at stmatthewpa .org,

put the ST there, or you can contact call 717 -622 -5919.

Now, our address is 600 Centerville Road, Millerstown, Pennsylvania, 17062.

And if you guys are interested and are in the area, every Sunday we have Sunday School and Adult Bible Class at 9 a .m.

and worship at 10. By the way, Pastor, on your website there's a typo.

They have as your email address, pastorwillcole at stmatthew .org. There's no

PA in there on the website, so I guess that's a typo. That would be a typo, yes.

I will correct that. And it's the abbreviated saint. It's pastorwillcole at stmatthew .org,

and that's stmatthewpa .org, I'm sorry, is the correct address. Well, I want to thank you both for being on the program.

I want to thank everybody who listened. Don't forget about Justin Peters being our guest tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.