October 14, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two four toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic here is James white.

Brazil Trip Report and the Hunger for Doctrine

Welcome to the dividing line. My name is James white, even though I can still barely hear myself. It's okay. Because we're just going to press on through because you know, I went to Brazil last week. And so I'm used to dealing with all sorts of very interesting challenges.

Including not being able to hear myself and things like that. So it's okay I mean, I've been speaking with a translator all week long and That's one of the most difficult things I've ever done. And so at least I'm not stopping and waiting for a translation to Portuguese.

Maybe I could call my my good friend Eros. He was the He was translator down there in Portugal did a one or Portugal Brazil did a wonderful job. Surely did a wonderful job. Maybe we can have him him on the program sometime.

We could just just show you a translation like or have them send the tapes up. I can hear myself now I haven't send the tapes up from from Brazil. We had a wonderful time I'll just mention really quickly because I want to spend the time today on the debate that took place October 4th, what's today this 10 days ago?

Against Jerry Mattis except in Salt Lake City, but I would like to say it was truly encouraging To get to visit the Saints in Brazil. I guess it's the way we would put it. It is it is exciting to see The fulfillment of God's promise to build his church the the folks down there are wonderful folks.

They're hungry for the Word of God. They they love the Word of God and you know some folks seem to think that that being concerned about doctrine and and witnessing to Roman Catholics and Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

That's all that's all passe. That's that's all for another generation and no longer relevant. You know those folks down there who do not have nearly in physical possessions the same Number of things and quality of things that we have here in the richest nation in the world.

Are still concerned about what is truly important and they were extremely thankful for the Messages that I brought especially the ones they they enjoyed the ones in the deity of Christ I talked about Jehovah's Witnesses some they enjoyed the one Islam or I gave them a you know brief introduction to the foundational issues of this one.

But what they really really really enjoyed most and we're most thankful for were the ones on Roman Catholicism. They live in a very very Catholic country. There is a resurgence of Catholic apologetics down there.

There's some priest Padre somebody Who is on the front of their version of Time magazine, and he's a young guy very charismatic. I saw him on Brazilian TV at one point. It was the saddest thing I've ever seen.

He it's just a close-up of him. He has this Smile just pasted on his face, and he's just going Mary we praise you Mary we praise you Mary we praise you of course in Portuguese. And then they'd fade Mary's face in so it looks like he's looking right at her.

And then they go back to another angle then back to her it was just unbelievable. Well, he's in some movie where he's Michael the Archangel, and and he's like a rock star down there and so they were extremely thankful for the presentations we did we even had PowerPoint presentations sent down via the internet.

I didn't know that I'd have that opportunity that that access down there and Tremendously faithful brother by name of Mark I spent huge amounts of time translating my Mary presentation into Portuguese and It was just wonderful for him to them.

If you'd like to hear more about the Brazil trip go over to PR BC org go to the Sunday school from last Sunday, which would have been what the 12th and I gave a report on the trip down to Brazil and the feel conference down there.

And so you can go and take a take a look at that there if you'd like to listen to that at PR BC org if you're not familiar with PR BC org the Sunday school lessons I do there the times that I preach so and so forth or archive there and.

So you can get that information there, but right before we went down to Brazil, and I'm talking Friday night. We did the debate got up early Saturday morning flew back to Phoenix came home repacked went straight back to the airport.

Flew to Sao Paulo so very very quick turnaround. Right. Before the trip to Brazil we had a debate in Salt Lake City. That's not like city does not strike probably anyone is the most likely place for a debate on Roman Catholicism.

We had a debate with Robertson genus there six months ago we had this debate norm initially what we're going to do is have this debate on a on a Saturday night and A Mormon debate on the Friday night, and that's we're trying to do up there.

Jason Wallace and Christ Presbyterian Church has been working faithfully. Every six months now what has it been three years now? I think I think we're up to about three years now worth of debate every six months up there in Salt Lake City.

They do a lot of work to put these together. We've been having them at the University of Utah. And this was a debate on most of you know on the perpetual virginity of up this lost myself on the perpetual.

I hope the computer connection works. That's all I can say and we were Talking about this debate for quite some time here on the program and we had Eric Svensson on. I played clips from the Svensson matics debate.

For three weeks as I recall and so Here we finally have the debate and it was a very fascinating debate. There's no two ways about it and when we pulled into the parking lot I said to Rich Pierce and Warren Smith.

I said I can guarantee you only one thing That Jerry Matics is not here. Because Jerry Matics never shows up for a debate early and Even though we knew he was in Salt Lake. I knew he would not be there more than an hour early.

We have to get there early because we have to set up the videotape equipment and the sound and and I'm always early for a Debate. I I would detest walking in even half an hour before a debate. That's not enough time I like to get set up like to have time to talk to folks.

I do not like to be rushed. I'm early for dentist appointments and so on and so forth. I hate being late. But I know Jerry and even though I knew he was at a hotel No farther away from the University of Utah than the hotel we were staying at I knew he would not be there any earlier than 10 minutes before 7 when debate starts at 7 and That we would not get started on time.

There was no way we're gonna start at 7 and About an hour beforehand we get a call and Jerry's still at his hotel and in fact He's still working on his notes now realize this is a debate that was set up more than six months earlier.

In fact, he had he we'd initially invited him to do it six months earlier, but he said no I need more time. Okay, well I guess that time goes right up till 6 o 'clock of the night of the of the debate itself because at 6 o 'clock he was still working on his notes and Even though it was only what 10 15 minutes at the most from downtown Salt Lake to the to the location of the debate 10 minutes still nobody there finally five minutes to seven here comes Jerry with his boxes and with his books and Of course, we didn't get started till 715 and I just I just knew that was the way it was going to be.

From from the very start. This is at least the dozen if that is a proper term debate that we have done. We have debated many many times and the I have a long track record now. It's mr Mattafix and in fact that he and I have been exchanging emails for the past 24 hours In which I have been pointing out various things.

He did in the debate most which I'll mention to you today and One of the things that I've emphasized in those emails is Jerry. You can't pull anything over on me anymore. I know you you pulled these stunts for 13 years now.

We first debated in August of 1990 at a Catholic Church, Long Beach, California and The fact that you keep doing the same things over and over and over again belie any Assertion on your part that well, you know, I didn't mean to go over time baloney.

You've gone over time a million times before once you have a track record record that extends for over a decade. I'm sorry. I would have to be a fool to believe any protestations of innocence. It just doesn't this doesn't make any sense.

So anyhow. One of the main a couple of main there were three reasons why I wrote to mr. Mattafix Yesterday and I'll bring these up as we're playing some clips are the mp3s. I'm not sure if the mp3s are actually on the site yet I know that we've made them, but I'm not sure that they're actually available for you to download and listen to yet.

But they're really close. We're working on the video and stuff like that and obviously The video will be even better. To watch to be able to see these things I really think you get more out of debate if you're able to see it as well.

It is interesting to compare what you think in your conclusions when you're watching it in comparison with what? You conclude when you just listen to it but anyway In there were three things that I mentioned and I'm like saying a play you some clips and I could play a whole lot of stuff you can listen to it yourself, but There are three things.

I wanted to mention to him from that from the debate. The first was the fact your CDs as in audio CDs, right? Yes, okay. We're also going to be making available from now on we're going to be making these things available in the CD format and eventually.

Just warning those of you who have decided to stay in in the shall we say the stone age? We are going to be dropping audio tapes. Eventually once we are able to transfer all that over and it's all going to be available on CD.

You know mp3 server CD. We're going to be dropping videotapes eventually and going only to DVD. You know, it's just it's just so much easier so much more reliable tapes, you know tapes or tapes you would not believe how many we have to have returned because because they get eaten and and It's just it's a very long process Digital we're going to be going all digital and that's just just the way it is and even people who are still in the stone Ages no folks who aren't who can transfer Digital files to the old format that they need to so that's just coming just let you know that it's it's out there.

It's not yet, but we're we're working on getting there. So anyway There are three things that I mentioned to him. The first was the timing issue. The second was a statement he made about to Bauer Donker aren't in Gingrich.

Which he hasn't quite gotten up to speed yet as Bauer Bauer Gingrich and Donker is gone second edition is no longer in print we're up to the third edition of that particular lesson and Then an issue that came up in regards to the odes of Solomon.

One of the three primitive and I would say grossly unorthodox sources. That give testimony some elements of the perpetual virginity of Mary. The first thing that I mentioned to him in emails. Had to do with the fact that as normal and this is something that was a problem when we first started debating.

He sort of got better for a while and then in this debate just went well spent. How many years? 97 so we're talking it's been six years since we debated. That's that's amazing. He Initially the the timer would go off these were in the very early debates back in the early 90s the time would go off and he just keep going and He would take extra time.

Now those of you who've listened to my debates know that I am very I'm very picky about that. We have time limitations for a reason the reason is so that you Respect the audience and you respect your opponent if you take more time than your opponent in a debate.

And you're showing no respect either for the audience or for your opponent. It also forces you to be concise it forces you to stick to what's really important and So I had raised this issue with mr. Matta ticks before I remember the conversation.

I remember the office I was sitting in and the location of the office and I had raised the issue of the time frames with him. He apologized that I wasn't aware that you were so concerned about such things.

I will be more careful in the future. Well, that was a long time ago and so during the debate as Normal, I was the only one who brought a timer. I Have I don't know how many of these how many? We have so many Radio Shack timers now because I'll admit sometimes I get on the plane and I forget and So I will have to go and I will spend my own money and I will buy another Radio Shack timer.

It's a little timer digital. You can set it for how much time You want to have if you have? 25 minutes for an opening statement as we had in this debate you set up for 25 hit start and it starts counting now.

You can just glance up and you can see exactly how much time you've got left in your presentation. And so you can you can judge am I gonna have to leave something out? Can I expand upon this whatever by just looking at the timer mr. Maddox never brings that out.

Well, I'll take that back. Take that back need to be accurate. He brought one once the Boston College 1993 he came into the first debate and he had he was so proud he had brought he had stopped and he had purchased a Timer because I kept bringing these issues up.

Why would you have been so proud if I hadn't kept bringing these issues up? And unfortunately, it was an egg timer and Unfortunately, unlike the Radio Shack version Every time you press the button You couldn't it didn't have a keypad so you could put in two five zero zero.

So it'd be 25 minutes. Instead you had to press the up button. One time for one minute one time for one minute. So we had 20 minute opening statement. So you had to sit there and hit the up button 20 times and every time it would be so he's hiding it under his desk going Trying to put it.

He finally just gave up and used mine. That was the only time you ever brought one. So I had mine. I only had one with me. Frequently what I do if I'm not using my palm pilot. If I'm not using my tungsten tea I will use what's called a big clock and it has a timer in it.

And so if I have to leave my timer for somebody else. If I have to leave it for mr. Mattafix to use or something, then I'll use my my palm and I'll keep track. Unfortunately, I had to use my palm this time so two times during the debate I Looked up and I was what I was doing as I was using my watch.

I had a I had a timer on my watch and it wasn't a digital timer. It was a it was a analog and so I was I was watching it there and I looked at my watch and I realized. You know times just about up and I see mr. Mattafix has turned off the timer.

He has reached up and he's hit stop on the timer and he's still going. In his rebuttal period was supposed to be 10 minutes long and in his closing statement both times. He reached up and he turned the timer off and went over time.

Now I wanted to make sure before I came to this audience before I publicly said anything about you know Cheap debating tricks and I've said many times Jerry Mattafix is the king of cheap debating tricks.

He has been since the start the very first debate we ever did. I Remember it was in a Catholic Church. My wife was there with me there people came over from our church there were there were priests and nuns all over the place and Patrick Madrid was supposed to be the moderator.

I've never had a Catholic moderator who ever moderated not one not one time. I've never had Catholic moderator could even hold a candle to what Bill Shishkoe did in the last debate. We had Long Island just just talk about ruling with an iron hand, but Patrick Madrid was the moderator.

And mr. Mattafix was supposed to have 20 minutes to open the debate. He didn't get the sola scriptura for 12 to 14 minutes into his opening statement. I remember leaning over to Patrick Madrid and saying, um, excuse me, but when's he gonna get to the topic of the debate and In the process of that opening statement, he misrepresented my book on the fatal flaw.

He's very arrogantly and Condescendingly said it well, you know, and I'd like to make an offer to mr White that the next time he writes a book on Catholicism I'd be glad to review it for him so I could help him to understand we really believe because he says, you know, if we're supposed to partake of the Body and blood of Jesus and we're only partaking of the bread.

What about the cup. And he doesn't seem to understand that we believe that that whole belief was laid out in my book. He just hadn't seen he hadn't read it close enough to find it. And so he's doing this whole thing about, you know.

His personal testimony and taking cheap shots and poisoning the well and all these cheap debating tricks in the very first debate. Nothing has changed in 13 years. He's got the track record. I know this guy.

Okay, very very clear. So I should have never left my timer up there. Not unless I had a second one. That I can have down at my table and it's when it starts beeping. I just sit there and let it be in fact I hold it up next to the microphone so everybody can hear guess what time's up and Jerry's still going.

Okay, so but before I came and said this to everybody else. I wanted to make sure I want to make sure I was right so what do I do? Well, we're the ones that recorded it and. So we have a digital recording of it so I got the digital recording and I loaded it up on my computer and I timed it and.

And you all can do the same thing you can download the mp3s you can check it out for yourself. My rebuttal period supposed to be 10 minutes long. How long did I go in my rebuttal period. 9 minutes and 57 seconds?

I got done with 3 seconds to spare. How about Jerry Maddix rebuttal period? Well, he's supposed to have 10 minutes, too. He went for 10 minutes and 50 seconds just under 11 minutes. Closing statement supposed to be 5 minutes long.

How long did I go. 4 minutes and 59 seconds? That's Putting it right inside the ballpark there. Mr. Maddix closing statement 5 minutes and 57 seconds just under 6 minutes long. Now, mr. Maddix says in his emails.

You must be you must be timing for when I first got there and I'm still shuffling papers. Nope, I timed it from the first word to the last syllable III just must have only gone a couple things. Nope. You went a minute over both times.

I Was just finishing a sentence. That's the longest sentence I've ever heard in my life. Yeah, I bet you we can't see it on video. Well, then again given that podium you can hide an elephant behind that podium and not see it doing its business back there.

So probably not but anyway, so he gave himself an extra two minutes in essence. Still didn't make any points, but you know. When you're when you're trying to throw as much dust and sand in the air as you can.

To obscure the fact you have nothing meaningful to say. You need all the time you can get and so that's what he did. And so I took the time to do that. Then the second thing I mentioned in the emails was His misrepresentation of our Don Carr and Gingrich.

I haven't gotten any meaningful response that in fact I am now completely convinced. He's never looked at the third edition doesn't possess the third edition. I've challenged him to cite the third edition to me without going and getting of somebody else.

He won't do it. And then the last thing was about the odes of Solomon. Because during the cross-examination period mr. Magic decided to get sort of acute and I had mentioned three sources the Ascension of Isaiah the protevangelium of James and the odes of Solomon.

Now he seemingly admitted that the first two are clearly Gnostic in origin and They are Gnostic in content and that the perpetual virginity of Mary at least concepts related to it are found in those two Gnostic sources.

But what he decided to do is look in the odes of Solomon. There are some people who don't say it's Gnostic and So he wanted me to give names of editors of collections and so on so forth and and he felt like he you know really scored a big a big coup there and I really do wish that I had had The full quote from the odes of Solomon with me.

I did not. But I have it now and so I'd like to read for you right now. One of the ancient sources a source that mr. Matic says in our debate is evidence of an ancient belief by a Jewish Christian in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Now mr. Magic's did not cite the passage. I doubt he ever has. I would challenge the fact I have invited him in emails written since yesterday To include in the future The following citation in his all of his public presentations on the perpetual virginity of Mary if he's going to maintain that this is not Gnostic and that this is a Jewish Christian giving testimony to the reality of the ancient nature of This particular belief I would I would challenge Jerry Matic X and all other Catholic apologists, please Read this to your audiences, I'll send it to you now ironically One of the main places you can get the text of the odes of Solomon.

Go ahead and throw odes of Solomon into into Google there and See what comes up about the third one down for some strange reason will be gnosis org. Www .gnosis .org Gnosis .org. Yeah, I'm not sure why you know, this is just a Jewish Christian.

It has nothing to do with Gnosticism, right? I wonder why they have it. I can't I can't imagine but let me let me read to you this. Let me give you an example of the kind of literature that Roman Catholic apologists want to point to as evidence historical evidence of The Perpetual virginity of Mary.

This is ode 19 from the odes of Solomon. I'm trying to get your attention there. Mr Pierce, I need a little more nor my headset. Thank you a Cup of milk was offered to me and I drank it in the sweetness of the Lord's kindness.

The son is the cup and the father is he who was milked and The Holy Spirit is she who milked him. Because his breasts were full and it was undesirable that his milk should be ineffectually released. The Holy Spirit opened her bosom and mixed the milk of the two breasts of the father.

Then she gave the mixture to the generation without their knowing and those who have received it are in the perfection of the right hand. The womb of the Virgin took it and she received conception and gave birth.

So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies and she labored and bore the son but without pain. Because it did not occur without purpose and she did not require a midwife because he caused her to give life she brought forth like a strong man with desire and She bore according to the manifestation and she acquired according to the great power and She loved with redemption and guarded with kindness and declared with grandeur.

Hallelujah, there you go folks. Oh 19 God the Father has breast milk and The Holy Spirit the female that milked the father's breasts. Oh Yes, I'm sure Jewish Christians are always using terminology like that aren't they.

Oh I wish I had had this quote. It would have been so useful. There you go folks. You know those of you who sit around Listening to EWTN and you listen to these converts going. Oh, I just I just started reading the church fathers and they were so Catholic.

Haven't read that one before I have you. And that didn't think so. Didn't think so. Amazing stuff, isn't it? Oh. You know and you go back and start reading these things read for example where where Pope Gregory Gives his interpretation of Jove this foundational to development of the Doctrine of Purgatory.

It's not much better than that. Read the pseudo The epistles of Pseudo Miletus from which the bodily assumption is first found. It's all a bunch of rank idiotic heresy. You see there. There's there's evidence.

Just just because there's just because there's heresy that doesn't mean all of it's wrong positively incredible just Incredible. Well, I want to play you some clips, but um, how are you gonna take a break today?

I Guess we've lost the other side of the room. So let's go ahead with the clips because I'm not getting any response so we will press on here and Let's go ahead and want a weird thing That took place during the course of this debate.

Was well, first of all Jerry again didn't get into oh good grief. Looks like we've got a lamer over an apologetics. Yep, somebody kicked the moron out of apologetics, please. Thank you. Yeah, I got nailed by that.

That's why I wasn't able to respond to you. Oh, really? Oh, I got clobbered. Oh great. But if you want to take a break, we can take a break if you want to skip it. That's fine, too. Well, let's skip it and since I've already gone on one of the weird things that took place.

Well, there are many weird things took place in this debate, but as normal Jerry started off and And he started off. You know, I'm a Bible-believing Christian and I was a Presbyterian minister and I became a Catholic, you know the whole personal testimony.

Listen to my personal aspect stuff now he then spent a lot of time accusing me of red herrings and misrepresentations. Of course, he was one who was doing it, but One of the things he did and it was well into his opening is at least halfway in Before he even got this stuff.

He started talking about this oath. That he was going to take this oath to rightly handle the Word of God. I Want you to hear exactly what he had to say. I hope we've got the computers synced up because here we go now.

Furthermore before I continue an imitation of the angel in Revelation chapter 10 verses 5 through 6 I now wish to raise my right hand to heaven and to swear to tell you the truth tonight. Even if it's inconvenient Even if it's unpopular, even if it works to my own harm, I Will not handle the truth falsely and I won't handle the Word of God falsely.

And I asked God to show who does that this evening between the two of us for God himself to judge between us. I ask that we put ourselves in God's hand now. I'm confused in a second. But what I did is I I have his challenge which I'm going to continue here in a second.

Then there was a slight break the the response I gave in my rebuttal and Then his response in his rebuttal, so let me continue on with it. I publicly renounce the devil who is a liar and the father of lies and I utterly repudiate Before you publicly as God is my witness To whom I will stand before whom I'll stand on my judgment day and give account for every idle word that I speak on the day of judgment the Lord warns us and I utterly repudiate the devil his wise and any and all reliance upon his angelic allies and Doctrines of demons that they spread.

And I asked dr. White in a spirit of fidelity to The biblical teaching and an imitation of that same Holy Angel who stood and swore with his right hand to heaven To follow me and to raise his right hand to take that same oath or affirmation if he prefers to avoid the use of even in our civil courts people who have scruples about that are allowed to say a solemnly swear or Affirm and I asked him to do the same and if he does not do so then he disqualifies himself as A faithful and true witness who renounces that he writes your credence.

We had some discussion I don't know where in the world is coming from about Doing like angels and putting your arms up and doing things like that my friends I come to you as an elder the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church as an elder I serve the Word of God and ministering to the people of God that is all the affirmation that any fun Anyone should ever have to give.

I knew that dr. White would sidestep my challenge to take that perfectly biblical and innocuous oath. And he did not disappoint me. So there you go. Let's see how long did it was. Let's see here one minute and 27 seconds of 25 minute opening statements spent by mr..

Medetics on this oath. Revelation chapter 10 the angel raises his arm and swears that there's going to be no more delay that. It's about and so he renounces the devil and he swears to rightly handle the Word of God and all the rest of stuff and then Has the audacity to say that I'm the one.

That for example by mentioning the Gnostic sources that originally gave rise to the concept of the professional region. But that's a red herring that that's irrelevant. That's irrelevant, but this oath is worth a 90 seconds worth of the debate time.

Oh, yeah, okay good. Well, that's that's that's great. That's wonderful now. One of the interesting things and and I I had I just had too much trouble getting to. We're some reason having networks problems.

And I can't get files from the other machines on my machine at any speed at all. And so we were having to burn CDs and the CDs wouldn't play on everything. I had a hard time getting some of the stuff up here, and so I'm not gonna play everything I wanted to but there was.

You'll all recall and to play for your discussion. From the Eric Svensson debate with Jerry matic's on the subject of Josephus. I want to go back. Find out where you'd first mentioned this in our original debate.

Couldn't find it in time. I only got the file under my system with five minutes for the dividing line. Just couldn't find it in that period of time. I'm going to play the exchange between matic's and Svensson on the subject of Josephus to remind you of what was said a couple years ago in a debate listen to this.

So we know from your papers his book the Jewish war that when James brother Lord was put to death by a mob of the Jews who threw him off a parapet of a temple. In the 60s during the revolt against Rome from 66 to 70 AD.

We know that he was an aging man in his 80s. Now you can stop and do the math for yourself. I haven't. I I haven't slept for two days because I've been traveling here. But even I can figure out that if James is the brother of the Lord and he was in his 80s.

We just put it up in the 60s AD then he had to be a child of Mary according to Svensson's logic before Mary was even born, but at least he had to be older than Jesus and Therefore Jesus would not be the firstborn.

The math would require you if James is the brother of the Lord and he's in his 80s when he's put to death and Brother the Lord means son of Mary. Then Mary was having children long before she had Jesus and so in what sense is he the firstborn at all and even to Svensson.

Doesn't believe that he wasn't the firstborn in the sense of Mary had children before him because he believes as I asked him. But Mary was a virgin until she gave birth and so after she gave birth to Jesus.

So I think the evidence of history is against us interpreting these brothers of the Lord in that way. Jerick he produced that quote from Josephus. What is the citation there? I don't have my copy of the thesis.

Because you quoted that in your in your debate with James why to. And you didn't you didn't quote the citation there. I looked that up and the only Citation that Josephus has for James the brother of the Lord is not in Jewish wars as you alluded to in that day.

I'm not sure what you said this time. So in antiquity that does not mention any age it does recount the death of James, but there is no age mentioned. Okay mentioned is 89 years old. That just doesn't exist.

Well, I'll be willing to stand. I've been wondering I would like to see that I do understand right. I'll be willing to retract my statement if we find that it doesn't exist. It's in chapter 20 of antiquity, but nobody has that nobody has challenged the statement before when it's been made.

So all I'm saying if I'm being honest, I'd like to see it. It's what your point would be valid if you said hey James white challenged you on that two years ago. No, you didn't challenge you that you said in your closing statement.

How this is the first time anyone I've ever heard anyone challenged that there is no such statement. I'd like to your producer before you go on to your next if I knew if I knew That if I had known you were going to challenge it, I would have had that the copy here.

That's all I'm saying. This is a novelty. I've never heard anyone deny that there is such a statement. So I'm willing to do the work. I'm personally inviting you to send me that reference. Very good. I'm personally responding.