The Pivot is Real

Welcome to the congregation conversation there. That's a good start. Welcome to the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host Judd Harris if you're streaming on rumble or trying to my apologies, I'll have to upload later.

It looks like it's not going to rumble but if you are on Facebook or YouTube or X we are live there and you can Put comments or questions in the comment section and I will be sure to get to them and anything is fair game at this point.

So if you want me to weigh in on Stuff happening on X I can try but I'm trying to take a break from X. So I may not know what you're talking about. I actually had to do a search this morning. Some of you don't know what I'm talking about.

Some of you do on Red dresses. I was not sure why in some of my chat groups on signal people kept talking about red dresses so I had to briefly go on X to figure out what they were talking about and now I think I understand what they're talking about and I have to be honest some of the things that we argue over and I say we not to necessarily include myself but we as in I.

Don't know.

Conservative Christians on who are some of some of whom are Maybe more chronically online than others some of the things that we talk about and argue over are a little silly. I just I just saying with everything going on in the world I'm amazed sometimes at the things that are the conversations, but this is the conversations that matter podcast.

So I do put that one Stipulation. So I suppose I'm going to amend what I said a minute ago. All is fair game, but it has to matter. So that's that's the one thing. The pivot is real. Moscow. Ezra apologia went woke.

Why did this happen? Wow, that's a loaded question there from Michael. How did they have they always been woke what happened? I wouldn't say that those organizations are necessarily woke, but I would say that most of evangelicalism so way beyond those organizations have the people that are the main thinkers within them that drive the direction of the organization probably have liberal tendencies and it's not because of.

This is one of the things I was actually thinking about this before the podcast. I'm glad this question came up. It's not necessarily because of theological conviction and I say necessarily. Theological conviction can play a part but it's not necessarily that and I think that Christians especially those coming from a very heavy worldview background where ideas.

And.

Especially like the framework of ideas. That you adopt as a holistic world and life you become.

The.

Explanated the explanation for why you do what you do and why you have downstream from that certain political opinions, I think I Think that Christians who have drank deeply from that kind of thing tend to think everything is theological and and maybe you could qualify that in a certain sense I would agree but I Don't actually think that the reason people do what they do in Every case or the reason they even think what they think about particular issues has to do with their theological convictions.

I think people Are complicated they can be somewhat hypocritical to be quite honest they can hold two opposing views that don't even make sense and a lot of I think what drives people to take positions that they take sometimes is style and habit and Tradition and how they were raised and a whole bunch of stuff.

So I'm not deterministic on any of these things, but I do think that it's often more complicated or more involved than simply Looking at what someone believes on eschatology, for example. And then trying to trace from that everything that they do which is such a habit evangelicals have To to try to search for what's the what's the thing?

And so I in this case and what you're taught I think what you're referring to is probably some of the I Don't know the Antioch declaration maybe and some of the pushback against that and some of the Insinuations that if you don't sign it you're somehow In favor of anti-semitism.

I don't know. I'm assuming that's what we're talking about here some of that I think has to do with some liberal leanings that people have and It's everyone it's not just Christians like everyone myself included there if I knew where all my leanings were That were in error.

I would correct them right and I try to do that, but I don't always know necessarily where my own errors are so that's hopefully as iron sharpens iron we figure those out together and we're on a pursuit of truth and the good true and the beautiful but anyway, I That was something I was thinking about before the program and that question just kind of sparked it.

We're not gonna be gamping on that today. Is Israel just a sacred cow? So I guess I was right That is what we're talking about To say yeah, like I think that There's a number of things converging probably I think that Israel Represents in the minds of many and this is not just evangelicals.

This is broadly speaking.

The.

Ideal liberal society. Planted in a hostile region planted in the Middle East where liberalism is not that Respected and This is the opportunity to show that you can you can plant liberalism. Somewhere other than Europe you can put it in another place and watch it blossom and grow.

I think there's probably a portion of that going on. I think there's also you can't get away from the fact that because of the Holocaust and It's not just the Holocaust narrative. It's actually the fact that there was a Holocaust of Jewish people in Germany.

There's a lot of sympathy and regard for Jewish people who have gone to Israel. You watch any of like the 1950s 1960s movies and.

And.

I'm trying to think what else media like I'm thinking of like the movie Exodus about the formation of the State of Israel, but any of the the sort of lore around that is Very much a story of redemption like we were Persecuted we were in concentration camps and here we are with a place of our own and doesn't it feel good?

And this is also our ancestral homeland because There were Jewish people there when we came and there used to be more Jewish people and this is kind of like a coming home so there is this especially for Americans, I think there's a story there that's very compelling and appealing so you have that going on and the people in Congress grew up when that was a new thing and and there's probably much more than even what I'm saying, but You have in our media a lot of I was gonna say pro-israel sentiment because there's a lot of Jewish people in Hollywood and so forth but I'm not actually certain about that anymore to be quite honest with you because There's so much in the United States.

This is what a lot of people don't I think quite grasp in the United States. There's a lot of people who are Jewish and I live in New York. So just south of me There's if I start traveling south heading towards New York City, I'm gonna come across a lot of different Jewish groups and they are different but The the Jewish people that live in the United States, especially the more secular they are the more of a tendency they have to actually support Hamas and not Israel and It's a fascinating thing to see Jewish people who are against Israel, but it is fairly popular I don't know how popular I don't know if there's been polling done on this, but oftentimes if you look on X and you see the guys who are promoting Jewish conspiracy type things and they you know, Jews control the world and.

And they're like one monolithic group that all have the same opinion and it all centers on the Nation of Israel. That doesn't seem to hold. There are certainly Jewish people who very much are concerned with the Nation of Israel though.

And and I'm sure that does play a big influence, especially. Probably on the Republican side of things but certainly on the Democrat side as well. I think it was Ben Shapiro not too long ago. Someone said sent me a clip of him saying how he thought he could do much more for Israel being in the United States and influencing things here and I'm sure that's that's a big thing.

I mean I look at myself and I think This isn't a liberal thing. This is just this is actually a natural human thing, right? I I look back and As someone who has moved in my lifetime I was very young but I you know from California to New York and knowing my grandparents and aunts and uncles in California and knowing Beyond that before that, you know their parents and Graham and grandparents were in Mississippi and Ohio there was this sense I had that I Was almost looking I suppose for a place of belonging because I knew New York wasn't really it I didn't really fit in in the place where I lived I was different and my parents are different than the people around us in Many ways I could go into I probably do a whole podcast on that and they might be settled to you but they actually matter and To have a homeland in the back of your mind to know to go and see there's the family farm There's the old homestead that makes a big difference.

And I think there's something like that with people who are displaced and I think the diaspora of Jewish people. They they have something like that there and there's a spiritual connection to in their minds so they may have never been on.

Actually, there was a guy I knew a good friend of mine. I still know him. Actually. He's a good friend who is Jewish.

Who.

Is Christian. He was raised Christian. So no secular or Religious Talmudic whatever Jewish background. I think he was like Calvary Chapel. That's where he was raised, right? But his family was ethnically Jewish and that meant something right that that meant certain holidays.

I think he celebrated Hanukkah. Maybe I don't know but he went to Israel and he came back and remember he told me I can't even believe how Fulfilling that was. I didn't even know and and so I I do think that because Jewish people tend to be.

Very.

On average very high achieving people and So they tend to be more influential and they also Are gonna have a preference for people who think like them for the I mean just like any Group of humans newsflash right any any group of people is going to Generally have a preference.

They're gonna hire from people who can do the job but probably people who could do the job like they would do the job and That I think probably does. Contribute to. Like in conservative media. I've noticed this a pro-israel sentiment even if that's not completely the base and I don't know whether it is actually it may it may very well be the base of Republican voters and conservatives are very pro-israel because.

The other thing that factors into this is Christian Pro-israel sentiment because of certain forms of dispensational pre-millennial theology. Interestingly though the group that the original question was about was none of them are dispensational pre-millennialist.

I think they're all post-millennial Moscow Ezra apologia. So So obviously that is not the root of the pro-israel sentiment that exists in our country. Interesting conversation to start this off. I wasn't expecting that but I guess I invited it with the anything goes ask questions.

We're gonna talk about Today the the pivot and the pivot I'm referring to actually is much more important I think and bigger than the squabbles online over the Antioch Declaration or these these honestly these very.

Smaller ministries, they're smaller ministries. Okay, not saying they don't have importance but the ministries that are fighting in certain quarters online you know like like right response and Moscow and you know, You know, I want to talk about the Southern Baptist Convention the largest Protestant nomination today, right that's like that.

That is so much bigger. It dwarfs these other conflicts that we're referring to. So I'll wrap this up with any other questions and then we'll go from there. I would never describe Doug Wilson as woke.

I don't I wouldn't either I woke is woke is loosely thrown around it just means there's an awareness of some kind of discrimination and It's obviously attached to the BLM narrative in 2020 and then broadly speaking because the BLM narrative adopted this some of the LGBTQ stuff and me too stuff and all of that.

But it's it's a kind of a hardened ideological Approach to those questions and issues that got brought up during that time period and that are still in the forefront to be quite honest Doug Wilson actually was pretty good on a lot of things.

He said at that time. It doesn't mean that he doesn't see you know, I like I'll give you an example like Yesterday someone was was telling me that this this podcast that Doug Wilson keeps talking about the Stone Choir podcast and James White keeps talking About it and they're they're making this pot this podcast more popular because they keep talking about it but it's a I guess there's some Nazi ideology in some of the episodes and that kind of thing, so in my opinion the guys on that podcast are they just they say some outrageous things and They act somewhat immaturely online in my opinion now They made a big deal about this Doug Wilson and James White.

Someone showed me yesterday that one of the co-hosts was bragging or Very positive about the fact that I guess on a very good day. They had like 1400 downloads. Do you realize how small that is? That is incredibly small.

I was shocked. Actually. I thought wow I thought they had a lot more than that you'd think the way these guys talk about it They would be a lot more popular. But like this podcast that you're listening to now, I'm sure Any given day you're probably talking six seven eight nine.

It depends. I don't really check it, but it's well over 6 ,000 downloads a day I'm sure and That's that's you know The the audio side of it the video side of it can often have you know Tens of thousands and much more and so and this is a smaller podcast.

So you're talking about a podcast much smaller it's only audio and These guys have made such a big deal about it. So so the whole idea that like there's Nazis in the closet There's Nazis under the rug.

There's yeah, like I guess you could say there's this heightened awareness. That's somewhat irrational That's like I can see why someone would try to make that case that people who who think that who emphasize that are kind of woke.

I.

Want to give the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that that's quite where these guys are at and they certainly were hard against BLM. So not something I'd throw around. It probably increases the temperature.

Honestly when you throw those things around. What causes many pastors to be allergic to conspiracy theories and love their government. I.

Don't know.

To love their government. There might be a patriotism in a lot of pastors who grew up in a certain era, especially the Cold War era there there often was a Sense that the United States were the good guys the Soviets the bad guys and even if we weren't totally Christian we had this broad love of God or a respect for him somehow and there there's sort of a Default setting patriotism that often I think is coupled with a Trust in the government and a trust that the government leaders are telling us the truth that a lot of that was broken in 2020.

Though are there any nabows here in the chat today? I know what that's referring to and we're not gonna this conversations that matter. Sorry. I'm not gonna get into that. We're getting like smaller and smaller and smaller on the list of issues to be concerned with.

You live in New York State not New York City. There are two different worlds. Thank you for recognizing that they're very much are. I'm looking outside my window and all I see are trees rocks and snow.

We had snow last night and It's beautiful outside.

Okay.

I'm gonna see if there's any more questions and then we'll actually get started with the topic at hand.

So.

If I can grow is yeah, I'm not. Can we not talk about Israel anymore. Is that okay? Isn't woke a term coined by a progressive academic. Woke is not an academic term. That's what academics will tell you they'll tell you it's the term from the black experience.

It's a term. It's it's from the street. It's it's it's a a popular level term that They'll argue has been used for a while to describe the noticing of patterns of oppression and that kind of thing. Who are the players in the New World Order agenda, all right, I'm.

Too big of a question for this podcast. There are many players in the New World Order agenda and no, they are not all Jewish. I'd let's see here. How yeah, Nolan is asking a lot of questions here. How could pastors claim to believe in souls could interpret scriptura while rejecting what the Bible says about cosmology?

Because like I said at the beginning of the podcast we as human beings sometimes have hypocrisies and sometimes it's because of tradition and habit and ideology and all kinds of things. John have you read?

Dalrock thoughts, I don't think I even know what you're talking about. So I don't think I've read Dalrock. You're gonna have to explain what that is. Should I read Dalrock? I.

Don't know.

All right.

Well.

Let's get started here and we'll try to focus the attention of the podcast since we're 18 minutes in on the subject at hand, which is the pivot is real the pivot is real guys and I Want to just thank everyone who supports this podcast whether through prayer or through financial contribution or whatever you share stuff on social media, it's making a difference and Sometimes I can't share.

About the difference this podcast makes behind the scenes. I had a phone call with someone earlier this week. That was really encouraging and I could see Wow, just Wow how. Smaller things in my opinion things I've been a part of have culminated in much bigger things in big organizations and I'm just really really pleased to see I I I know that and this isn't an error.

I'm not trying to make this an arrogant thing. I may have my own arrogance that needs to be worked on by the Lord. This is not a statement that I think has that embedded within it, but I do know. If I had not been doing this podcast I do think the landscape and evangelicalism would look differently and it would be for the worse.

I do believe that I mean I I have to write why why would I do this podcast if that wasn't the case? I'm not just sitting here talking to talk. I want to get things done I want to see things move and and there have been some things moving that I really appreciate and so one of the things I'm going to talk to you about separate from the What I was in big terms.

Just mentioning but I want to talk about this pivot and I think that there's a number of for this is a team effort, right? But I think there's a number of things converging that have led to this mostly the election of Donald Trump.

But there is a pivot in the Southern Baptist Convention to moderate some of their social justice language and in some cases I think guys who were very critical of voting for Trump and critical of evangelicals who would do so and Somewhat on board with the racial reconciliation slash CRT slash DEI agenda.

They're reversing course somewhat. That's a good thing. And I think we should even if we don't trust those guys completely even if we say we they have to prove that they're really conservative now politically and even theologically in some cases.

We I think can still celebrate the fact that things are moving in a better direction. At least on some fronts and I'm going to show you those fronts to encourage you and to let you know your support has mattered your views matter you're not alone and Some of the people that treated you like you were crazy or at least you looked at them and thought maybe they were crazy they're they see things more the way that you're seeing them now, or at least they are beginning to and I think that's very that's tremendously encouraging when you know, you're not the only one and maybe there's people with some level of influence the in maybe the nomination you're part of that also agree with you and That's always an encouraging thing, so Let's let's get into it.

I wrote a piece for the Federalist. Okay, the Federalist is and I don't know why I haven't done this before.

I.

Was encouraged to do so and I'm glad I did and I will probably in the future do more of it because I was realizing this was shared a whole lot more than some of the things that I've written in other outlets because this is the political right and These are the kinds of places you write stuff if you want Tucker Carlson to notice or you know bigger names and so It just means that the message can spread farther and so I wrote this piece called how Trump's victory affects the civil war D evangelicalism on December 2nd.

So three days ago it came out and In this article I make the argument that there's been a political divide for a while surprise surprise. No one in this audience is surprised by that. And I use David Platt as one of my big examples in the beginning that he wrote.

He undermined the pro-life movement. He marched with BLM while his church was closed with a BLM style March I should say and he spoke at it and his church was closed for kovat. He signaled against Trump and insinuated he was connected with racial division and injustice and He would give theoretical lip service to the pro-life and pro-family Issues but he was pushing the needle and choosing a side and he wasn't alone in that and This is important to see because the the play that's often made is that these evangelical leaders?

They transcend the political divide and they're just Christians and Christians are outside of this two-party system and What they're doing is they are pushing the needle for one side they're entering a context where Christians have primarily been pro-republican pro-conservative and They are at the very least giving them the option not to be that and I would say even more than that they are giving them arguments and reasons to push things left and And not push things right at the very least the things that they're even Concerned with and have to pay lip service to that are on the right.

They don't push hard, right? You can look at even the way that Russell Moore talks about things like abortion. Which is kind of one of those core tenets for evangelicals, right? When does he talk about it?

And how does he talk about it? Right, he says the things you're supposed to say, but it's couched in contexts where it's he's writing to an audience that he perceives as more on the left and he's representing evangelicals to them and usually trying to get evangelicals somewhat off the hook for Being too harsh or too bigoted or or you know, or he separates himself from them like yeah I'm pro-life like them, but some of them are nefarious and I'm not with those guys and so like he doesn't actually like go into the places where That you know the temples of the death cult and then really push the needle hard there, right?

That's not what he does. That's not how he operates so I talk about these lukewarm intellectuals and this was actually a subheading they gave this section, but Russell Moore at some of the stuff I already talked about the podcast David French John Piper their reactions to this whole Trump victory and the threat that they see in it and.

And then I shared about Mike an article Mike Pence actually shared from the gospel coalition by Joe Carter and he talks about Robert F. Kennedy jr. Who's Trump's appointee for the Department of Health and Human Services.

And.

He writes in the gospel coalition that the GOP is fully shifted from the pro-life party to the one that's unapologetically pro-choice. This is an example of what I was just talking about. Okay, so we're gonna be pro-life now, right?

We're gonna hit it hard when it's in the Trump administration. And you know Robert F. Kennedy's coming in. Let's hit it hard and Be super pro-life to oppose Trump. Well, he also chastised the pro-life establishment that they're rigid.

You know, they have a temptation to trade moral clarity for political favor. Well, it's interesting I looked back just to see what else Joe Carter has said about the HHS and he has told Christians. And this was I think earlier this year.

That.

Biden's order but Biden issued an executive order to protect abortion and use he wanted to use HHS to do this. Health and Human Services and Carter told Christians that the order would not have much effect on abortion since the Dobbs decision has kicked back the issue to state legislatures and that he said Abortion aside from not nominating Supreme Court justices.

Most of what presidents could do is purely symbolic. So under Biden the Department of Health and Human Services was not a threat to the pro-life cause. But somehow under Trump and RFK it is despite the fact that RFK has said that he is open to appointing an anti-abortion stalwart to the senior position at HHS and he is Possibly in favor of restoring anti-abortion policies from the first Trump administration.

So.

The like think about this think about the difference in in just months a matter of months Joe Carter goes from HHS isn't a threat under Biden to the pro-life cause to oh my goodness we're at like this compromise level because Robert F Kennedy is in there and I'm not gonna say that like like do I wish it was someone different than RFK.

Yeah. Do I wish it was someone who was good on the kovat stuff understood?

The.

Threats coming from HHS and other You know regulatory Agencies that look at drugs and these kinds of things. Someone who knew their stuff on that and who also was very pro-life. I do. I don't know who that person is to be quite honest.

I'm not saying they don't exist.

But.

You know, I'm actually glad that someone like RFK who is going to regulate some of these other things or at least look into the lack of regulation and The collusion between pharmaceutical companies and the government and big business in the government.

I'm glad there's someone like that there. I actually think he has. One of the things he's done is instead of just like on paper being aligned with his positions, which is really good. We keep electing people right that are aligned on paper.

They say the right things they get there and what do they do? They don't RFK actually has sacrificed for the issues that he believes in. And so I actually have some respect for that and I have some hope that he'll get some things done.

Unlike someone who might be more closely aligned on positions, but hasn't actually been proven. So That that is something that I am positive about but that said yeah. Do I wish there was. I wish that Christians were more involved in political things and there was more options to choose from.

That's what I wish but you know, we're it's Christmas time. We can make wishes I guess but we have to deal with reality and and so then in this article I Talk about Just the general ethos of ethics and religious Liberty Commission gospel coalition.

Southern Baptist policy arm is the RLC. Which I just mentioned and Christianity today and how these organizations punch, right? Nuance left and then there's this section which we're gonna camp on. Actually, I'll go to the end and then come back.

So the lasting solution is basically raise up Rank-and-file evangelicals need to raise up new leaders and I give a shout out to the Center for Baptist leadership in the SPC truth script in American reformer.

I wrote this before the whole controversy over whether they republished a James Lindsay rewritten Communist manifesto piece, but I would not have done anything different because I think these are good organizations.

But we need fresh faces. To some extent that we can trust now this is a hard thing because I just got done telling you how you want someone who's tested that's preferable someone who's sacrificed for their issue and I don't.

I Know of pastors on smaller levels who have done some of this. And this is one of the things with true script We want to do is raise those pastors up raise those spiritual leaders up so you can Be exposed to people who have been faithful for a long time we don't want just a Christian church that's led by youth or inexperience.

That is a recipe for disaster. It really is like beyond I think what many of you probably realize it's we need seasoned people who have not compromised you may never have heard of but They we need them In the ranks at the very least advising younger people who are taking the role in the mantle of pastor in influential settings, so.

Anyway, that's my lasting appeal is to let's raise these leaders up. Let's identify them.

But.

This is where I want to camp out. The Southern Baptist leaders are moderating. I see something different happening in the SBC and I gave a number of examples. JD Greer was one kind of a minor one, but he was one because he has connected Trump numerous times with racist and Nefarious policies.

He.

Identified central elements of the BLM movement as gospel issue. As a gospel issue. He promoted diversity equity inclusion in his church and yet he was very hopeful. That's what he said on an axe. He was he had much to be hopeful for in the wake of Trump's win.

Now he's posted some things since then that make you think he's trying to signal left, but okay. He said that I talked about Nathan Finn a little bit. I've talked about this on the podcast before and and he's an ERLC fellow and what he said about basically.

It sounded to me like he wants to drop the diversity language and go with more like class. Language, like we need to appeal to people from different classes gets you to the same spot. I think this politically diverse congregation that has Democrats who are comfortable being there, but it's not the DEI strategy to get there.

So the other thing though, and I'm gonna play you clips from this I thought was interesting was a podcast that had Dean and Sarah of City Church in Tallahassee Florida who some insiders in the SBC say he's gonna run for SBC president.

You had oh now I'm blanking Eric Reed. He's a pastor in Tennessee. He's written I know he's written for the ERLC. He's also kind of like I think a bigger pastor in the SBC and. Then you and had Andrew Walker who is a professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary now all these guys.

Have on some level I would say been. I'm not gonna show you screenshots. I thought about it. I'm not gonna do it because I've already done some of this but. These guys haven't been on the right side of a lot of the issues that they're talking about in a recent podcast.

I'm gonna play you clips from for example Andrew Walker.

Was.

You know as as early as not early sorry as late as 2020 he was at a breakpoint symposium where he signals anti Trump and If you vote for Trump why to legitimize him as a Constantinian like Savior or for pragmatic policy reasons not voting for Trump.

Are you pronounced so he he wants to nuance and qualify but like you get this sense He's trying to transcend it. Like, you know, it's fine. If you don't vote for Trump Right. Christians have that Christians have no Moral duties too strong a word, but there's no moral Concern that they should have.

You know.

Not a strong one at least that you know, what if Trump doesn't win what's gonna happen and stuff like he he's like. Hey, it's fine for Christians not to vote for Trump. And we don't live by political gamesmanship alone.

So he talks about this stuff and then he's of course done a number of books the gospel for life series. It's him and Russell Moore are the editors. So Andrew Walker and Russell Moore and in one of the books I mean he he just he.

He basically Swallows hold the BLM narrative right Ferguson Charleston Americans wounds on race are still deep. We cannot allow our failures as society to simply simmer and every age the prophetic imagination must be engaged.

We saw an MLK juniors. So he goes on I'm not gonna read the whole thing. I've done this on another podcast, by the way. What was the name of it? Maybe I can find it so that other people Let me look it up real quick.

See I I want to be able to send people if they want to know more about this. Hmm. I can't seem to find it right now. Maybe someone in The comment section can find this for me. Oh, I think I might have found it.

Let's see. What's it called? No, I guess not. I thought I had found it All right. So if someone in the comment section wants to find the episode I'm talking about. It's something to do with like should we allow Those who have previously compromised to come back and fill the ranks of evangelical leadership something like that.

So anyway Going back to to this whole thing. We we have Andrew Walker who has been on the wrong side of some of these issues needless to say I Remember during the fuller stuff when Fuller was exposing s BTS Andrew Walker was out there aggressively.

Trying to do damage control and discredit Fuller and all that kind of thing, you know insinuating. He was bearing false witness I mean Tara in my opinion like you're treating fuller like an enemy and Fuller was just telling the truth.

That's all he was ever doing about what was happening to s BTS and one of the things they were doing was they were importing Critical race theory. It's just true Andrew Walker was on the other side of that, right?

And you guys like You know Eric Reid who you know, not not in the ancient past like four years ago he is online praising Beth Moore. He's praising before that Russell Moore, I mean, that's where he was that right you have guys.

Like.

Dean and Sarah opposing the Center not Center for Baptist leadership the conservative Baptist Network for being too political and You know giving his reasons for why You shouldn't support Trump and he wouldn't support Trump and these kinds of things.

So this was all happening. These guys I would have seen as totally on the other side of the divide and. Yet they did a podcast and I want to hear I want you to hear some of the clips from this and we'll talk about.

Them together in this group of kids that again. They're actually becoming almost feels like they're becoming more conservative than their parents here because they're pushing back. That's right on all the things that have been thrown in their face that they're not for and they go to good churches.