Stream of Consciousness on Russell Moore Leaving the ERLC

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00:12

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter pickup truck cell phone edition. I just got back from a longer trip, well, relative term,

00:20

I guess it was, uh, I think five days, six nights, something like that. And it was in, uh, we, my wife and I got to get away.

00:29

We haven't done that since the beginning of the COVID stuff. So we went to Charleston, South Carolina, Savannah, Georgia for our anniversary.

00:35

And let me tell you, if you're a history person, you're going to want to go to both of these locations and, uh, see some of what they have.

00:41

I mean, they're just such amazing colonial history. You're passing graveyards in both places where signers of, um, of the constitution and declaration are buried.

00:50

Uh, you have so many monuments, uh, especially in Charleston, so many Greco Roman, uh, statues that are just fascinating.

00:57

Um, unfortunately they've already taken out one of them. Uh, so you may want to go soon. They took out the John C Calhoun, uh, statue and I think it's called

01:04

Calhoun square or maybe the road was Calhoun street or something, but, uh, he, he was a vice president wrote probably some of the most uniquely

01:13

American political thought in his disquisition on government. He's gone though, and hopefully they don't take anything more out because it's just a beautiful place.

01:22

Uh, lots of French architecture, lots of Greco Roman stuff. Um, probably the most

01:28

Northern Caribbean type city. It's got a almost a Caribbean flair to it.

01:34

Um, and, and wonderful little shops you can go into, uh, off of market street, especially there's a museum there, um, with a lot of civil war stuff, the museum at markets, uh, street and, um, you have, uh, we went to the

01:48

Hundley that was, that was wonderful to see the Hundley. If you haven't looked into the Hundley, that's a fascinating story. It's just absolutely fascinating.

01:55

Some of the things associated with that. And uh, there's these little cookies I gotta, I gotta plug this.

02:00

I mean, they, they're not paying me, but I just, they're so good. I don't know if they're pralines. I think they're pralines. There's little like key lime and, um, uh, they got like peach are their biggest flavors and they're all over in Charleston and you have them in Savannah as well.

02:14

These, these amazing cookies. I don't know how to, you'll see them when you go, if you ever go, um, just don't go if it's, you know, especially to Savannah, if it's probably like July or August, unless you're from Florida and you don't care, but if you're from North of there, you, it gets a little, it was a little hot when we were there.

02:29

But, uh, overall pretty nice. The only downside for us was we ended up going to the beach the first day and we went paddle boarding too.

02:36

And I decided I wanted to get a tan. That's always a bad idea. So, um, I put, you know, sunscreen on, on certain areas, but I wanted,

02:43

I wanted my back and my stomach to get kind of a tan. So I decide, well, I'll just lay down for about half an hour on both sides.

02:50

That should be, uh, you know, enough that it's not going to burn me. No, no, I was wrong.

02:55

I got charred and I got something called, it's not my term, but if you look online, it's called hell's itch.

03:02

And it is one of the worst things I've ever experienced in my life. Second time I've experienced it, it is horrible. And ironically, the temporary cure for it is to take a hot shower, right?

03:11

Take a, take a hot shower on a sunburn. That's right. Um, not a fun shower, but you do it.

03:18

You do it in a heartbeat when you have hell's itch. Um, I didn't even hesitate. Uh, it was boiling my skin off.

03:24

It felt, I think what happens is your nerves are just like destroyed and so you can't feel anything. So you can't feel hell's itch.

03:30

I don't know. Um, but, uh, but yeah, that, that was interesting dealing with that. Um, and, uh,

03:37

I'm, I'm over it now though. Um, where, uh, we're back home and, um,

03:42

I was just, uh, I was, I was out, uh, running some errands and I decided this was a good time for me to just take my phone out and record a little podcast for you.

03:50

Cause there's some things that I wanted to talk about that I missed, um, that, uh, just some things that happened last week.

03:58

I'll give you three headings here and I'll just give you my thoughts because some people were sending, actually a lot of people were sending me especially stuff on Russell Moore, but, uh, you had, um, the religious news service, um, religion news service did a hit piece on James Lindsay.

04:13

Uh, I don't have a lot to say about this, but I will talk about it a little bit. Um, then you had Russell Moore is out at the

04:18

ERLC and then it looks like, I don't, I don't know what to call this cause civil war is way too harsh of a term.

04:26

Uh, it seems like they could turn into that, but there is, there's a schism forming. I sense in the cons in the conservative, right.

04:35

Those who would be against, uh, critical race theory, including actually being against it, you know, they are against using the analytical tools, those people.

04:44

Um, there seems to be a, a schism forming and I want to talk about that a little bit. We, we definitely, we, we want to avoid this if we can.

04:55

Um, it may not, it may be unavoidable, but, um, but I'll, I'll talk about what some of my observations are on that.

05:02

Let's talk about RNS first, a religious news service did a piece on James Lindsay where they, the sickening thing to me is they doxxed his wife's business.

05:12

So they revealed, I guess the, um, for those who don't know, James Lindsay is actually an atheist, but he's been very much against critical race theory in all kinds of areas, but he's been interviewed several times by people who are conservative in the

05:28

Southern Baptist convention. And so that's why I think a religious news service decided that they should go after him because the convention's coming up and that's kind of how they, um, how they portrayed their coverage of, of him.

05:43

They make him out to be some kind of a discredited hoaxer, um, who, who just doesn't know what he's talking about.

05:50

And he's, he's a masseuse, uh, his wife, I guess that's the business his wife runs.

05:57

And they, they just try to just cast all sorts of shade on him. And I had a few thoughts on this cause

06:03

I mean, I'm not a stranger to having hits done on you. And there, it is hard when you're in that moment, when that happens.

06:11

And especially if they're going after someone connected to you, if it's not you, if they're going after your wife or a family member,

06:16

I mean, that is, that is hard and I don't want to take away anything from that. One of the things that it stresses to me is how much we need conservative news organizations.

06:27

We need more of them. Um, we have a few, some of them just kind of aggregate stuff.

06:32

They're not really news organizations. They're, they're blogs. They're, they're online and that content can be good, but like actual, you know, journalism and it's a problem though.

06:44

Cause where do you get your journalists? So they're coming out of journalism schools. Generally, they're going to be, uh, very far left.

06:50

And so, um, finding people that are trained in that, I mean, it's, it's a whole, there's a whole host of issues, but it's just, it is a need that's there.

06:58

And, um, I'm not sure why there's not more of that. Uh, I know there's some attempts out there.

07:04

But, um, you know, even with social media, um, we, we, you know, to compete with Twitter, to compete with Facebook, we have, uh, organizations like Gab that have popped up and I thank

07:17

God that there are some things like that. But there, what seems to be lacking,

07:23

I think is a lot of the investment capital. There, there aren't, I don't know where the rich conservative, uh, donors are who can really finance these things.

07:33

Um, make them, you know, really top of the line good. It tends to be people, uh, even like myself who, um, you know,

07:41

I'm going to be talking to you in the coming days about discerningchristians .com, which, I mean, it is up and running.

07:46

You can go have an account there. It's very basic stuff, but it's, it's really grassroots stuff that we're doing.

07:53

And that seems to be mostly what I see. It's a lot of grassroots stuff out there. So, um,

07:58

I just, it was just a thought, you know, you have all these organizations and they quote each other and they have each other's back and it's, it's

08:06

David and Goliath situation. There's just so many of them. Um, that if, if, if you had conservative organizations doing the, um, doing the opposition research even, uh, on some of these liberal organizations and liberal editors and stuff that they would not, it, it, it, one of the things that makes it easy to get away with lying about someone or misrepresenting someone or, um, mischaracterizing someone is when there are no consequences, you know, no one's going to be doing any kind of hits on you that will get any kind of traction and all your buddies are going to protect you and vouch for you.

08:43

So you're doing your work, uh, destructive work from a place of almost relatively low risk.

08:51

And that needs to change. And I think one of the things that needs to happen is there does need to be just more competition. So if, if anyone's like really rich listening to this, maybe they can forward some initiative to start some conservative news orgs that are really good, really principled.

09:07

Um, and, um, maybe more importantly, we need to be hard on news organizations that lie and that, uh, really use bully tactics.

09:18

I mean, going after someone's wife or doxing someone's wife. Um, I'm sorry. That's a bully tactic.

09:24

That's the, whatever you're condemning them for. This, this is, this is worse. This is off limits.

09:30

This isn't, we don't do that, right? That's, this should be beyond the pale. Someone should be ashamed of doing something like this.

09:37

Um, and that's the shame factor is kind of left the building, but it's not wrong to be hard on these people.

09:43

And, and it doesn't mean to, um, do what they're doing. It just means to accurately represent them, call it out for what it is.

09:50

This is a bully tactic. This person, this author by name is a bully, that kind of thing.

09:56

Uh, and then, um, the other thing, and I think Donald Trump did this actually quite well, despite some of the ways that Trump was kind of rough around the edges.

10:07

Um, wear the hit piece as a badge of honor. And if conservatives did that more than, you know, it would backfire on the other side.

10:16

If they realize, wait, we're actually helping them when we do a hit piece. We are, they're using that as a signal for who, whose side they're on.

10:26

See, a religious news service did a hit piece on me. Therefore I must be a threat to them.

10:31

Therefore I've gained credibility. The thing that keeps that from happening is actually,

10:37

I'm not sure what the thing that keeps that from happening is. I was going to say the thing that keeps that from happening is that, um, people don't fall in line and use it as a badge of honor.

10:47

They don't, um, you know, say, Hey, way to go compliment someone for being attacked by the wrong people.

10:53

Um, but, but at the same time, I realized that Donald Trump actually did kind of have that to some extent.

10:59

That was his, his shtick. He had, uh, everyone from the left going nuts and crazy and writing hit piece after hit piece and his followers, you know, laughed at it.

11:11

And that's kind of what should happen in a way it should be condemned and it should be laughed at. Um, that should be mocked and, and, and, and, and not, not an unholy unrighteous or crass kind of mocking, but just the there, this is evil.

11:27

This is ridiculous. Uh, this is childish, that kind of thing. So just a few strategic, uh, things from a bird's eye view.

11:35

I was thinking about with this RNS piece. Um, well,

11:40

I got a phone call in the middle of the recording. So that is why I have driven home and I'm continuing it for those listening on the audio.

11:49

You notice no difference, but I felt like I needed to explain to people watching on the video. Um, we are going to continue here.

11:55

I want to talk about, uh, Russell Moore leaving the ERLC and then that bleeds right into this schism for lack of a better term.

12:05

Um, I'm not even sure if that's the word I want to use, but there, there's some kind of a divide I think developing in the conservative, uh, wing of the

12:13

Southern Baptists. And I want to talk about that a little bit, uh, as well. So let's talk about Russell Moore here.

12:19

He did leave, um, the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission for the Southern Baptist Convention. For those who don't know, Russell Moore, uh, has been pushing in a progressive, uh, pushing the

12:30

SBC in a progressive direction, the Southern Baptist Convention for a while. And he's faced relentless opposition from certain, um, sometimes they're called usually by their opponents, discernment blogs or, uh, polemics, um, outlets, um, news, uh, organizations, uh, bloggers, et cetera.

12:54

But there's a, there's a whole panoply of people. Um, some would even include me in that. Uh, although I haven't focused on Russell Moore, uh, as much as some of the others, but for years, uh, they've been focusing on Russell Moore.

13:07

I think, um, Pulpit and Pen, uh, which is one blog that, um, has been putting out article after article on Russell Moore since like 2011, something like that.

13:20

And there's been, um, I mean, I give you one example of like some of the things

13:25

Russell Moore has said. He said that he won't attend a gay marriage or gay wedding, but he would go to a gay reception for a wedding.

13:32

It's things like that, that, you know, it just makes you think that he is, he's, he,

13:38

I don't even know why someone would publicly say that unless they're looking for a reaction. And Russell Moore has certainly gotten his fair share of that.

13:48

So he left the ethics and religious liberty commission, um, one month before the convention itself, where Southern Baptist will go and they will vote on resolutions.

14:01

They'll vote on a new president for their convention. And some have said that this is a political strategy and I believe it probably is, and I don't have a smoking gun on that, but I'll tell you what

14:14

I do know for over a year, I've been told by someone who is in the know and actually multiple sources that Russell Moore is looking for a soft place to land.

14:24

Uh, he knows his days are numbered at the ethics and religious liberty commission. There's two universities

14:30

I know of that he could have possibly gone to. There's probably more. Um, he ended up at Christianity Today, which fits him.

14:37

They're more progressive and he can continue the work that he's been continuing. Um, in a sense,

14:42

I mean, he's, the Southern Baptist convention has been a stepladder for him for his career advancement and he'll probably have a job with a higher salary.

14:52

He'll be a, um, I think it's called public theologian with them, something like that. And, um, the timing of it is interesting.

15:02

I mean, he would have been an albatross around Al Mueller's neck, given that Al Mueller is the one that platformed him and has never publicly at least said anything against him.

15:11

I, I have heard that he said things privately in certain circles, but publicly he's never done that.

15:16

He's only said positive things. Uh, conservatives who have been sounding the trumpet on Russell Moore for a while won't be able to use that as effectively in the convention.

15:29

They won't be able to say, well, Al Mueller, you know, you were the one who platformed Russell Moore. I mean, you could say that, but Russell Moore is gone now.

15:39

So it's kind of like a, an issue that is just, it seems like an old issue at this point.

15:46

And I think it's brilliant if there was a strategy behind it, it's brilliant on the side of the progressives for doing this.

15:53

Now, some, um, conservatives have been saying that ringing the bell, we got rid of the problem.

16:03

Almost. They've been very excited about this. And I understand why to some extent. Here's the thing

16:10

I want to emphasize though. I went to a Southern Baptist school. I have a degree from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Um, I don't really ever,

16:17

I hardly ever mentioned that except when I have to, I say it on the podcast when

16:22

I'm about to make a point, like the one I'm about to make, there was no reason, uh, for Southeastern that there was nothing holding

16:33

Southeastern from going more progressive from being part of that drift, um, whether or not

16:40

Russell Moore was involved, it would have happened. There, there just, I didn't hear about Russell Moore.

16:46

Russell Moore wasn't, we weren't reading Russell Moore stuff that much. Uh, we had our, we, we had, you know, 10 smaller

16:53

Russell Moore's with smaller platforms at the school. And that's the thing I want to emphasize is there's

16:59

Russell Moore's all over the convention. In fact, there's someone probably standing in line, ready to take the reins of the ethics and religious liberty convention who thinks like Russell Moore.

17:08

I don't know that for a fact, but that would be my guess, educated guess. And so I've never focused exclusively on him.

17:17

I know that he's one of the ones leading the charge, but it's just, it's a much bigger problem than him and not much changes whether he's there or not.

17:25

Now, I do want to encourage you that I do think that, um, things we've even said on this podcast, but more so other blogs and outlets, what they've said about Russell Moore has effectively, um, it's, it's made him a liability for progressives in the

17:45

Southern Baptist convention. And I think that probably did lead to him, uh, very likely, at least, uh, leaving.

17:53

Um, I don't have a smoking gun on that, but, um, it makes sense. The timing of it makes sense and it's consistent with everything else that I do know.

18:03

Now I would, I would be careful about claiming victory here to just overstating the case.

18:10

Uh, the progressives and, and even some who aren't progressive, I've been surprised that some of the so -called conservatives out there congratulating

18:18

Russell Moore on social media, um, for his, his advancing his career to be at Christianity Today.

18:26

They, they're not shaking in their boots over this. They're not saying, oh no, the, we can't go progressive anymore.

18:31

They're thinking, um, hey, you know, you, they're honoring him. You, you've done such a good job for us and thank you for your service.

18:38

And you know, we'll take it from here. So the fight is just beginning. It's, uh, it, well,

18:44

I don't want to say it's just beginning. It's been going on, but the, it's certainly not over. It's far from over.

18:51

Now, coming out of this has been something I think is more interesting and worthy of comment.

19:00

Um, there, I, I don't even quite know how to address this, but I feel like I do need to say something about it.

19:08

I would have said it last week, except I was gone. I've made a little note for myself and the note says civil war on it.

19:16

Now, of course that is, I think a little overblown to use that term, but there's, I just sensed there's something, there's a split in the conservatives right now.

19:27

And let me, let me give you my sense here, uh, where the lines are.

19:33

Not everyone may fit perfectly within these lines, but the lines are there. One of the lines is, um,

19:40

I think you could say it's mirrors what happened in 2015, 16, uh, the presidential election.

19:49

Uh, you could even say what happened last year on the Democrats primary, but I'm thinking of the Republican primary, um, where you had establishment candidates and you had populist candidates.

19:58

I see that on the conservative side, there's two conservatives running. One seems a little more establishment. One seems a little more populist to me.

20:05

That's just my take. And, um, I see the same thing on, on the other side.

20:10

I see, uh, Al Mohler being more of the establishment, Ed Linton being more of the, um, populist, um, progressive.

20:19

Um, now they, they both have maybe a, a bit of a, uh,

20:25

I don't know. They, they both have a bit of an establishment bent, but Al Mohler more so. But I see it more pronounced on the conservative side.

20:35

And I think the populists are more, they're not, they don't want to just go after ideas.

20:41

They don't want to just reform the SBC. They are looking for a Trump like figure.

20:47

They want to just, they, they, they want to almost like just get, I don't want to say burn the place down, but they're, they think there's a swamp.

20:55

They think that the swamp, uh, exists and that the social justice stuff is not disconnected from the people that are pushing it.

21:03

So Al Mohler is not a good guy, I think in the minds of a populist, rank and file.

21:09

SBC person, and they're looking at it thinking, well, not only did he platform and promote

21:16

Russell Moore never spoke out against him, but in his own backyard, at his own seminary, he can't seem to get under control, uh, and get retractions or public apologies from the very people that are pushing critical race stuff in his own convention or postmodernism.

21:31

Um, they see what happened to Russell Fuller. They see what Tom Rush said when Tom Rush came out, they see, and I'm not going to go over all of it, watch my video on what happened to Al Mohler.

21:41

And you can see the way that he tends to punch right. And usually not say anything or defend people more on the left has been going on now for a while.

21:53

And even some of his own views. Um, I go over that in the video are very, uh, some of them have been evolved, let's say in a more progressive direction over the last few years.

22:06

They wouldn't say he's a good guy, but there are those, I think in the more, and I don't, again,

22:12

I I'm struggling to get words here in terms, but I'll say in the more establishment, if you want to call it that, um, old line kind of camp, um, who do think

22:23

Al Mohler is a good guy and a good example of this would be, uh, a video that was sent to me by some people that are, uh, more than one person who, um, they're not no -namers they sent it to me frustrated with it.

22:34

Um, and I have nothing a personally against Tom Askell, but there was a, um, a video he had put out there.

22:43

Uh, it was, it was on his ministry. It was an interview he did with, um,

22:49

Mike stone last week on his podcast. And he said in it that there's no one running for president of the

22:56

SBC, who's a bad person. They're all good men. Not, not one bad one in the group.

23:04

Now, I mean, he may have meant there. I mean, I, I don't want to put words in his mouth. Um, I I've tried my best to think about, okay, how, what's the most kind of like how bad is such a cut and dry term, but like, you know, they're not actively stealing, but then

23:21

I thought, well, I don't even know if that fits it's, it's hard for me to, um, come up with a way, uh, of rationalizing it in my mind to where I'd be comfortable with that statement.

23:34

I'm personally not, I wouldn't say now, if you agree with Tom Askell and that's fine, um, I'm, I'm finding myself probably a little more on the populace camp if, if that's where the lines are.

23:46

And I, I'm more thinking that, uh, you can't really separate these teachings from the people that are promoting them.

23:53

And when I first got into this, um, few years ago and, and commenting on these issues,

23:59

I was bending over backwards to, uh, and I still do that to some extent. Some people say that I still have that problem, but I really,

24:07

I want to give the benefit of the doubt to everyone. Um, I mean, even, even with this comment that I don't think

24:14

I agree with, with Tom Askell that he said, it's like, I really want to just, I mean,

24:19

I love the guy, I, I don't have any personal issue with him or I'm very grateful for many of the things he's done.

24:26

We've had some great conversations, but, um, there's, I have to deal with the words that are in front of me and if I disagree, or I think there's a problem with it, or I, you know,

24:38

I I'll, I'll say it, but I want to try to find an out for people in general. That's just, I think that's probably, hopefully a good thing, but it can also get me in trouble if, uh,

24:49

I'm not seeing something clearly in front of me. I've changed from being more that way to being less that way.

24:57

You you've seen years go by, you've seen this social justice issue just really ramp up.

25:03

You've seen men like, um, Al Mohler and Danny Aiken and Kevin Eazell. And it's like almost everyone who's ahead of any kind of entity of any significance buy into it, hook, line, sinker, and there's been confrontation.

25:21

I know, I mean, I, Danny Aiken's a good example. I know so many people have told me, yeah, I've tried to approach Danny Aiken that they don't get anywhere.

25:29

Um, so many people. And so I don't, I would never say that about someone like a

25:36

Danny. I wouldn't say, you know, he's a good guy. I'd say, actually, I think he's, he's been confronted on these things and he's persisting in error.

25:45

Um, he's been, um, I don't want to go any farther than that right now. Maybe I'll save that for another episode, but someone like Al Mohler, I would say, look, you can watch my video.

25:56

What happened to Al Mohler? At the very least, this guy is on his own team. He is an opportunist and he's pushing things in a leftward direction, mostly.

26:05

I don't think someone, I wouldn't characterize someone like that as good. Now there are people like Tom Askell, and I think there's many others who would make that separation.

26:13

And, and, and maybe in their minds for very good reasons. Um, and maybe in some of your minds for very good reasons, you want to, you want to carve out that exception.

26:21

You might, might want to say, um, Matt Hall's another one, you know, Matt Hall or Jarvis Williams. Hey, these aren't false teachers.

26:27

These are good brothers who are just confused. Here's the thing though. When you look at the New Testament, I just,

26:34

I see very direct language when it comes to false teaching. And that's why, um,

26:43

I think you, you give an opportunity. You, you approach Paul, like Paul approached

26:49

Peter. You, you give that opportunity for repentance. If there's not repentance though, if there's not an acknowledgement and a retraction, public retraction for public error, if there is not public apology for public error, then you have, you can't say that anymore.

27:05

This person is persisting in something wrong or evil, uh, destructive.

27:12

And there's a lot of people, and I think it's growing the people who think that way and feel that way about many of those who are heading up SBC entities.

27:22

And that would be the populist. I don't know what else to, how, how else to characterize it, but that's the flavor

27:28

I'm getting. And this is based on a lot of different conversations I've had over the past few months, um, with people who are in high positions as well as laymen.

27:37

That's one of the breaking points. They're, they're, they think there's a swamp, they're tired of it. And they don't, they think the people that are promoting this are bad people.

27:46

They need to, house needs to be cleaned. If that means firing, you know, a good number of people at Southeastern, if that means, you know, getting rid of some of the seminaries, cause they're just too far gone and reallocate.

27:57

I mean, they'll do it, but they don't want their funds going to evil men or evil institutions that are pro you know, compromised in some way they want it being used for the great commission.

28:11

And I can't blame them for that. At the same time, there are others who

28:18

I think, uh, feel more like they're, they're more hooked into SBC politics.

28:25

They're probably friends with a lot of people and they have mutual friends with some of these guys. They're, um, uh, maybe a little more politically calculating, uh, less.

28:39

They're, they're, they're less Trump -like and more, I don't know, George Bush -like or, uh,

28:45

I don't know, pick your more establishment candidate. They're, they have a, they want to, they want respectability in some way, or at least a modicum of that.

28:54

They want to maintain that, uh, in some way for whatever reason, there may be good reasons for that too. Um, they're, they're a different, they're just a different class.

29:04

And that's what I'm seeing is there's these two different classes. Now, where this has come out, uh, on this, how

29:12

Russell Moore's exiting the ERLC has been an occasion for this crack to be noticed is

29:19

I have seen a, on, on one side,

29:25

I have seen individuals, um, just that they're kind of like one down and they're like, you know, this is, we gotta,

29:37

I don't know, we gotta clean house, like this is, this is like step one and they're, they're motivated by it, they're hyped by it, they're encouraged by it, they're ready to go to to Nashville and they're, they're really going to take, take it to the next level.

29:54

They want this, what just happened times 100, right? Uh, you know,

29:59

Russell Moore's gone. Now let's get rid of a thousand others, you know, kind of thinking like we, we got the momentum.

30:07

Also a frustration. Uh, there's, I think if I wanted to contrast, I would pick maybe

30:12

J .D. Hall had, um, from Protestia, uh, had sent me a podcast.

30:18

He did. I'll link it in the info section. I'll also link Tom Askle's podcast, by the way, you can see both of them. And, um, uh, just because I've referenced both of them in this video, he, there's a, um, there's with him and I've seen this tendency as well, and I think this is, there, there, there's a, uh, spectrum on the populist wing there's kind of let's, let's reform the whole thing.

30:45

And let's start from the ground up, kind of like just burn it all and start again. And there's also this kind of like, let's just get out the whole thing.

30:53

Even with Russell Morgan, the whole thing's, so there's an optimist populist, a pessimist populist, the whole thing's going downhill.

30:59

Let's go to independent churches. And I would put J .D. Hall in this category.

31:05

Now he's already done that. He's left the SBC, his church a few years ago, but he does not think these men are good, he thinks they're wrong and he doesn't have the confidence that there's going to be a reform and he seems to be kind of, um, disappointed for lack of a better term that his, that, that him and others who are more in that populist line, uh, maybe they, they're a little more rough around the edges, a little more direct, a little more, uh, kind of like dressed like John the

31:47

Baptist type of, uh, a little more, um, just that they don't have that modicum of respectability within the denomination.

31:57

And they kind of think because of that, they're being looked down on or they're being discounted or they're being ignored, that kind of thing.

32:04

And J .D. Hall goes into this a little bit in his podcast. And one of the things that I thought about was, you know,

32:14

I, this doing what I've been doing has definitely costed me quite a bit. Uh, it's not just, uh, time, but emotional, um, blacklisted me from certain things that I wanted to be involved in before.

32:28

I don't regret it. Um, I, I, I'm appreciative to all of you for allowing me to do this, helping me do some of it, because I think it's worth it.

32:36

The church is worth it. But I understand not wanting to do the charge of the light brigade over and over and over on repeat.

32:46

And going out there, here's the truth guys, you know, this is what's happening. This is why it's wrong.

32:52

And then just being shot at and having hardly anyone to defend you. I know what that's like.

32:59

And, um, and I know a lot of you do, you, you, you, I, I, I understand that's not an absolute statement.

33:06

I just mean people with platforms, bigger platforms, and that's okay. That it's worth it to get the truth out there.

33:13

But I think there are some who feel that they've been doing this for years and they're, and they're kind of like, you know, what's the point?

33:20

Why, why do this? And, um, it, it, it gets discouraging.

33:27

It gets lonely every once in a while. It gets, it's hard when you're, you're attacked by the progressives, but there's not a brotherhood on the side of the conservatives to be able to absorb that.

33:42

And I've noticed this several, several times where, and it happens all over the place, it's not just those who are more populist or rough around the edges.

33:51

It's, it'll, it's happened to Tom Askell. It's happened to, um, Michael O 'Fallon.

33:56

It's happened to, uh, it's happened to a number of people where others won't step up sometimes to defend them, or at least not, not a lot.

34:04

They'll kind of back off and the progressives almost never do this. And that's one of the interesting things to me.

34:11

Progressives tend to stick by themselves, even on the political level, national level in this country.

34:16

But, but in the SBC, this is true as well. It's just, it's, it's just, I don't know. They tend to do that.

34:22

They tend to congratulate their own when they're going off to work for Christianity today. We don't do that as much.

34:29

We are more individualistic on, on that particular, on, on cooperating with others to defend our brand or whatever.

34:37

And I, and maybe cause there's fear of the media, maybe because we don't want that baggage of someone else. I don't know, but my, my encouragement would be if anyone's listening, who has any sway in this area, or even if you just have a small platform, but I would say, um, we need to try to stick together as much as we possibly can.

35:00

Even if we have disagreements, even if you don't like how someone even communicates, I wouldn't say all the things

35:05

JD Hall says, he probably wouldn't say all the things I say. Same thing goes for Tom Askle. Same thing goes.

35:10

I mean, I can name so many names right now. Rod Martin, uh, Brad Jerkovich, uh,

35:16

Jeff Maples, Alan Atchinson. Uh, you know, the list just goes on and on for guys who have, um, been instrumental in, for instance, uh,

35:27

I think creating the scenario that led to Russell Moore leaving. But there we sticking together,

35:34

I think is important when we can. We can always, uh, we, not everyone has all the time to be monitoring all those things who's attacked when, but I think it's good to.

35:45

Um, defend the truth at all costs, no matter, don't, don't do the political calculation thing. Don't say, well, if I stand too close to this person, will

35:52

I get that? I wouldn't even think in those terms, just think in the terms of, is it true or is it not true?

36:00

And then, um, let that be your guide. Now, going into the convention, there are two conservative candidates and my hope would be there's, there'll be a way to cooperate somehow, cause the worst thing.

36:13

And even if you go to the independent church route, which I'm very sympathetic to, just like, you know, at the age that para -church age is over, all these bad social justice ideas came from para -churches, it didn't come from the church.

36:24

Let's just go be independent churches. I'm very sympathetic to that idea. But even if you are on that vein, you still want,

36:32

I, and you're in the SBC still, I'd say make this your last stand at least, even if you're going to leave, no matter what happens.

36:38

Just you want the SBC if possible, since it is such a bellwether and evangelicalism, and it means,

36:43

I think a lot to the United States. You want it to go in the opposite direction.

36:48

You want it to go in a more, um, religiously conservative, theologically conservative direction, and you want to keep it from continuing the drift.

36:59

Uh, because it will affect you even if you're in that independent church. In some way will affect even the politics of the country.

37:07

So it is important, I think, uh, for, for those political reasons, if not for, if for nothing else.

37:17

Um, my hope is that there would be just some cooperation. Cause I know there are differences of strategy and maybe there won't, maybe, maybe that's just a hope

37:25

I have. Maybe, maybe it's not possible in every respect, but that's, I just wanted to share that at least and say, look, even if someone's supporting a candidate that you don't agree with, or, um, once you get there and it's clear, you know, who's going to be it and who's not, it's probably going to be good to rally around the person who can be, uh, the progressives.

37:48

Um, I could be wrong on that. Maybe, maybe, you know, I, I don't, I don't know.

37:53

I've talked to both of the conservative candidates and had pleasant conversations. I've offered to both of them to be on this podcast and, uh,

38:01

I, I don't know them extremely well. So I'm, I'm speaking out of partial ignorance, but, um,

38:09

I, that is my hope. And so I wanted to share that. I think there were some pioneers in this.

38:18

I called, um, look, I don't agree with every move JD Hall's made in every way. And he's probably doesn't agree with me, but he,

38:26

I use the word pioneer, he was a pioneer against, uh, for seeing

38:31

Russell Moore for who he was. And I think the credit is credit where credit is due.

38:38

And I, and I wanted to say that, uh, on the podcast, uh, I do give some credit to him and Jeff Maples and Alan Atchison and, um, and, and, and then some of, even those who have, uh, just recently like CBN conservative

38:53

Baptist network, who are just recently started to talk about some of these things, uh, credit where credit is due.

39:00

Um, you've, it's a group effort and that group effort can continue and you can broaden the net.

39:06

Uh, I wanted to say just thank you for everyone. Um, I, I am back. This is a stream of consciousness episode.

39:12

I am back though, and I am going to be working on some more podcasts this week with slideshows and everything.

39:18

And we'll have, uh, and I'll be writing more. I need to really need to get a book out before the end of the summer. Um, I'm really, uh, shooting for midsummer if possible, but, um, going to be working on that this week.

39:30

And it's because of your generosity that I'm able to do this. And so I just want to say, thank you once again for your generosity.

39:36

Uh, and I wanted to say last but not least, some people had an issue with. Um, an episode

39:41

I was gone, so I couldn't deal with it very well at the time. I think the three or four people messaged me and said, they, they thought that I misrepresented

39:47

John frame, um, and his view on tri perspectivalism. And some of you are, your eyes are glazed over so you can shut it off.

39:54

But for those who care about this, I want to say a few things. Number one, um, thank you for all those who reached out.

40:01

One person even wrote me a four page essay. Thank you. Um, I appreciate that. Number two, I have read some frame on this.

40:07

I haven't read everything frames written at all, but I found frames stuff a little confusing, which is why I used another source, a secondary source that I thought was a little clearer because I didn't have time to do a primer on tri perspectivalism.

40:19

I just really wanted to get the point across that you can't use it to defend critical race theory, or even a misrepresentation of it to defend critical race theory.

40:27

Uh, third, I wanted to just say that I appreciate John frame. I said that in the, I just want to re say it.

40:34

I do appreciate his apologetics, nothing personal against him. Uh, I, I don't find the tri perspectivalism stuff that helpful to me personally, but, um,

40:43

I found many other things helpful that he's written. And, um, and then fourth, I wanted to just say, just from my view, tri perspectivalism is either this revolutionary thing that's just amazing and changes everything, or it's not.

40:57

And I, with how it's used, like for instance, Tim Keller uses as a revolutionary thing.

41:03

It's like, you got to kind of adjudicate these three perspectives and, uh, balance yourself out by them and kind of use it to check yourself, uh, which is perspectivalism, which does land you in subjectivity.

41:17

I'm just, I'm very skeptical that, that you can retain objectivity with that. It's, it's perspectivalism, but, um, this may be more the way frame meant it.

41:27

And this is what many of you said. And I certainly caught this before the episode where I was reading on him, which is why

41:32

I even went out of my way to say, you know, perhaps Keller's misrepresenting frame, um, tri perspectivalism could just be a way of just categorizing knowledge.

41:41

These are the three components you want to, you know, if you think about when you're thinking about knowledge to categorize them and if that helps you, that is perfectly fine, but it's not really revolutionary in my mind.

41:51

So, um, I'm not going to like do a whole thing on tri perspectivalism. It's way outside of what

41:57

I'm trying to focus on right now, but main point can't use it or a misrepresentation of it to justify critical race theory.

42:04

And I hope that point was, uh, came across. So, um, hope that was helpful for all of you.

42:09

Thank you once again. And, um, I just appreciate all of you all and, uh, we'll, uh, have some more content later in the week.