Story Time with Uncle Jimmy

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Started off with reading through the entire Epistle to Diognetus (~135 AD), then going back and making direct commentary on the text as it relates to the unique theory promoted by Dr. Ken Wilson and promoted by Dr. Leighton Flowers. We dove pretty deep into the text and found that the author of the epistle had a very strongly apostolic doctrine. Then we switched gears and analyzed Doctrine and Covenants 114 from the LDS Scriptures as an example of a false prophecy of Joseph Smith, Jr. And hour and 45 minutes in length today. Enjoy! We intend to be back tomorrow! Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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Well, greetings and welcome, felicitations, salutations, all those other shuns words that we use.
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Welcome to The Dividing Line on a Monday during the cultural lockdown.
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Yes, as we dive headfirst without hitting any rocks on the way into utter and complete economic ruin.
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Evidently someone wanted to relive the breadlines of the 1930s. So here we go. That's what's coming, but we don't want to talk about that right now.
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May talk about it toward the end of the program. But right now we have story time with Uncle Jimmy.
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Remember that? It seems like another lifetime. Seems like it's another lifetime. It's been a couple years.
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What we did a couple years ago is we we did what nobody else will do.
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We read through I don't know how many
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Gnostic writings we did. You know, the Gospel of Peter and we did the
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Gospel of Thomas and and you know, the Protevangelium of James.
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We read the whole things. I mean, sometimes it took like the whole program and we call it story time with Uncle Jimmy, I think.
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Something along those lines and you know, just as a part of our desire to make sure that our audience is as well educated as possibly could be and simply due to the fact that the vast majority of believers have never read any of those works.
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And so they keep hearing them referred to as if they were supposed to be part of the New Testament and stuff like that. And we just figure exposure to this stuff is probably the best way to let people know.
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Nah, no, very different. Not even close to the same worldview as what you find in in the scriptures.
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So I thought I would bring story time with Uncle Jimmy back so that we could take a look at a very, very, very important early writing of the church.
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This is Orthodox stuff rather than Gnostic weirdness and we don't know exactly when this was written or exactly what what to call it.
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It's called the Epistle to Diognetus. We don't know a date.
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Sometimes it's called Mathetes because it it's just simply written by an disciple.
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Some people have associated it with Alexandria. Some people have taken guesses.
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I saw one guess that it was written by whoever trained Clement of Alexandria.
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That seems like a real reach for me having had to read some of Clement of Alexandria.
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This seems very different in spirit, in my personal opinion. We don't know who wrote it and we don't know when it was written.
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So could it be 1st century? Who knows?
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Most people put it in the 2nd century. Most people would say if you push it into the 3rd century then there are now discussions going on in the 3rd century that you would think would have impacted some of the things are being said.
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So a common date's about 135. But for you know, we know when
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Justin lived. We know when Justin Martyr lived. We know when Ignatius lived or Irenaeus and things like that.
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We just this is the only thing we have from this person. And we don't have it.
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It wasn't found in a context that would allow us to really have any idea exactly who it was.
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But it still remains a very, very important writing from the early church and to be honest with you,
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I, you know, at Apologia we do, I've mentioned to you that we're doing this
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Voices feature in our bulletin each week and I think it is very healthy and appropriate to help our people to understand that they live and serve
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Christ in a long line of people who have been sanctified by the
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Holy Spirit, who have been empowered to live lives of service, empowered to undergo martyrdom and imprisonment.
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In fact, I should make a note someone remind me, make a note and remind me of this after the class.
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That's what we're doing. It is class. Let's just be honest. That's what we sort of started doing. We're doing the
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Dividing Lines Seminary. Let's just be honest. We've been doing it for a while now.
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After class is over, remind me to schedule another story time with Jimmy this week and let's read
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Cyprian's letter to the Christians in the Mines, M -I -N -E -S, the
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Mines. If you're like me, and I shouldn't confess this publicly, but well my daughter has ratted me out, but I cry at movies.
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It's terrible. I hate it. But like the end of Toy Story, the last, not the last one that is put out, but when the boy grows up and stuff, golly, man,
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I mean my, I just, it's probably ragweed or allergies, something like that, but it only hits at the end of Toy Story.
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Hey, I got no room to talk. About ragweed and allergies? Hey, do you remember the wedding?
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That's true. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, yeah. I know. But, but see people don't expect me to do that because they figure
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I'm heartless. I'm cold, heartless, mean, nasty. You know, all they'd really have to do is talk to my grandkids to find out that I'm really not, but anyway.
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What was I talking about? I don't know, but if I read that, if I read that letter, if you're like me, it's really convicting.
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It's really convicting. So let's do that. Let's, um, let's find some time this week. Also, before we dive into this here, let me just mention this up front in case
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I lose anybody. Thursday, we are going to be joined by the
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Jazzy Segovia of South Africa. I'll bet you, I wonder if anyone else has called him that.
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I bet nobody has. The Jazzy Segovia of South Africa.
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Seb Goldswain, Sebastian Goldswain is a young man who is just an artist on the guitar and I love acoustic guitar.
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I saw Segovia in concert in 1981 at Arizona State University.
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I think it was 81. I would love to see if there's a listing online someplace that would confirm when that was.
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Maybe going back, maybe some archive of when great people performed at the
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Gammage Auditorium. I bet there is. I'll bet you if I went to the Gammage website, they had a history type thing because Segovia was...
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If you don't know who Segovia was, you've not lived. Okay, so may
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I highly recommend you look up Segovia if you want to hear absolute artistry.
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If you know Christopher Parkinning today, Segovia made people like Christopher Parkinning possible, in my opinion.
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But I love acoustic guitar and not just classical acoustic guitar.
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There's a lot of good modern acoustic guitar. There was one CD I got years ago by,
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I think, Tim Snow. He put out one CD and I love it and he never did anything more. It's like, yeah, bummer.
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So anyway, I forget how I first ran into Seb, but I think he attended something
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I did and I think he gave me a CD, if I recall correctly. I think he may have come to one of the debates
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I did down in Durban. I'm not sure. Seb, tell me about it. I don't remember. But he mentioned me in the liner notes of one of his
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CDs and I was like, oh cool. This is great. And then in 2018, I got to speak at his church and he did a mini concert before I spoke there at the church.
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And so that was a real joy to get to watch. So anyways, he did a live thing because if you play and teach guitar and you're locked down and they are locked down in South Africa, you're talking armored vehicles on the streets locked down in South Africa.
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There's a lot of places that have a lot worse than we do, sadly. But they're locked down and if you're an entertainer, so he was doing a
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Facebook live thing yesterday and I just happened to see it and so I posted it on Twitter and Facebook and got some other people to watch and and stuff like that.
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So I just had the thought today and and so I whatsapped him because everybody outside the US uses whatsapp.
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Unfortunately, Facebook's now grabbed that too. But I whatsapped him and said hey, how'd you like to come on the program and we can talk about what's going on down there and you can
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He's got this. I probably got it right before all this happened. It's a super duper good guitar he can tell us about and he said yeah, let's do it.
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So Thursday, we're gonna hook up Lord willing. I keep saying Lord willing because a lot of these services are at maximum capacity right now.
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We'll hook up with Seb and do something a little lighter maybe than what we're doing, but that'll be later this week.
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So put that on your on your calendar. I also need to see if we can get hold of Milo.
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We haven't had Milo on in a long time. So we need to we need to we need to track Milo down. I'm sure
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Milo has I would I think Milo probably has some really important insights into the the virus.
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In fact, he may have some ways of defeating the virus that no one no one else has ever thought of.
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It probably has something to do with cows and something farm animals. I don't know. We'll see if we can track
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Milo down. See if see if Milo can fit us into his very very busy schedule and play some of his music too.
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So we'll see what we can do there. Anyway, so story time with Uncle Jimmy. So get yourself, you know, if you you know, if you're stuck in in quarantine someplace, you know, you're stuck in quarantine maybe you're one of those people who the the kind police officers were taking your license plate numbers and you've been put into 14 -day quarantine for being a bad bad bad bad bad person.
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And so you're you're tuning in because you have absolutely nothing else to do. At least they haven't turned your internet and your electricity off yet.
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Or maybe you're just, you know, maybe you just want to listen to a story.
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But let me let me read for you. I even put on my my grandpa glasses because I am a grandpa and actually just makes it possible to read.
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We have fun here. And so imagine this is an evangelistic letter.
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That's one of the reasons that it's placed where it is historically. And it's probably why it got copied enough to where it survived over the centuries without a name attached to it.
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Because that's what's that's what's really strange about it is so much of what did survive from that time period survived because it was attached to a major name.
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A martyr, for example, you know, that's that is why it got copied.
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My gut feeling is this got copied because it was a great tract.
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It was, hey, man, I wish I could explain the faith that well. Let me copy that and give it to my friend, etc, etc.
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That's that's my that's what I sort of figure is probably how this survived even in the few manuscripts that have survived.
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So this is this is how someone in the post immediately post -apostolic era expressed the faith to an unbeliever and responded to some of the objections as well.
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So it's not inspired. But it sure is encouraging.
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It's encouraging to me. I hope it's encouraging to you. I hope for a few minutes we can put aside the uncertainties of our day and remember that here is a fellow believer who wrote during a period of time when they didn't even have aspirin, let alone
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Chloroquine or Antibiotics or respirators or any of that other stuff.
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And in fact I'd have to look at it. If we put it 135, this was just a few years before a major outbreak of plague.
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We're not sure what it was because remember you got smallpox and and all sorts. I mean, wow.
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It was almost normal for some disease to be ravaging someplace at some time throughout history up until our time period.
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That's why I say most generations before the 1800s would look at us and go
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What? What did you do? Wow, so Anyway so This is the day they live in.
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It's hard for us sometimes to transport ourselves back.
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But one thing I mentioned when I was preaching yesterday is in talking about the doctrine of justification
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We see people of the past more serious about mortality and death than we are in our day, at least up to recently, because they saw it much more clearly.
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We hide from it. We don't talk about it. We've sanitized it.
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So You consider mortality and your relationship to God seriously when you realize it could happen to you tomorrow or today.
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So with all of that as a background The Epistle of Diognetus And I'm reading,
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I'm not reading a modern translation I just I don't know, you know when you've taught out of the same textbook for years and years and years
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I've got Holmes and all the others Yeah Nothing wrong with them
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I'm just a rebel Since I see most excellent Diognetus that you are exceedingly anxious to understand the religion of the
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Christians. Now, I am taking the thou arts out as best I can and Using modern
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English so because it says that thou art exceedingly anxious, but Not being
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I'm just not gonna do the King James thing all the way but though that might help some of the King James folks to actually enjoy it, but Since I see most excellent
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Diognetus that you are exceedingly anxious to understand the religion of the Christians and That your inquiries respecting them are distinctly and carefully made as to what
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God they trust and how they worship him that they all Disregard the world and despise death and take no account of those who are regarded as gods by the
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Greeks neither observe the superstition of the Jews and As to the nature of the affection which they entertain one to another and of this new development or interest which has entered into men's
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Lives now and not before I gladly welcomed this zeal in you
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And I ask of God who supplies both the speaking and the hearing to us that it may be granted to myself to speak in such a way that you may be made better by the hearing and to You that you may mayest so listen that I the speaker may not be disappointed
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Come then. I guess I should give you the references a paragraph two It's not all that long so you can look it's available online in numerous different translations
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Come then clear yourself of all the prepossessions which occupy your mind and throw off the habit which leads the astray and Become a new man as it were from the beginning as one who would listen to a new story
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Even as you yourself did confess See not only with your eyes
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But with your intellect also of what substance or of what form they chance to be whom you call and regard as gods
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Is not one of them stone like that which we tread underfoot and another bronze?
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No better than the vessels which we forged for our use and another wood Which has already become rotten and another silver which needs a man to guard it lest it be stolen and another iron
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Which is corroded with rust and another earthenware Not a bit more comely than that which is supplied for the most dishonorable service
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Are not all of these perishable matter are they not forged by iron and fire?
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Did not the sculptor make one and the brass founder another and the silversmith another and the potter another?
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Before they were molded into this shape by the crafts of these several artificers Was it not possible for each one of them to have been changed in form and made to resemble these several utensils?
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Might not the vessels which are now made out of the same material if they met with the same artificers been made like under such as these
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Could not these things which are now worshipped by you by human hands again be made vessels like the rest?
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Are not they all deaf and blind are they not soulless senseless motionless?
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Do they now rotten decay? These things you call gods To these you are slaves these you worship and you end by becoming altogether like unto them
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Therefore you hate the Christians because they don't like they do not consider these to be gods
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For do not you yourselves who now regard and worship them much more despise them
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Do you not much rather mock and insult them worshipping those that are a stone and earthenware?
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Unguarded but shutting up those that are of silver and gold by night and setting cards over them by day to prevent their being stolen and As for the honors which you think to offer to them if they are sensible of them you rather punish them thereby
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Whereas if they are insensible you reproach them by propitiating them with the blood and fat of victims
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Let one of yourselves undergo this treatment let him submit to these things being done to him No, not so much as a single individual will willingly submit to such punishment for he has sensibility and reason but a stone submits
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Because it is insensible Therefore you convict his sensibility Well, I could say much besides concerning the
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Christians not being enslaved to such gods as these but if anyone should think that But if anyone should think what has been said insufficient
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I hold it superfluous to say more paragraph 3 In the next place
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I fancy that you are chiefly anxious to hear about They're not practicing their religion in the same way as the
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Jews The Jews then so far as they abstain from the mode of worship described above Do well in claiming to reverence one
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God of the universe and to regard him as master But so far as they offer him this worship in methods similar to those already mentioned
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They are altogether at fault For whereas the Greeks by offering these things to senseless and deaf images make an exhibition of stupidity the
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Jews Considering that they are presenting them to God as if he were in need of them ought in all reason to count it folly and not religious worship
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For he that made the heaven and the earth and all things that are therein and furnishes us with all that we need
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Cannot himself need any of these things which he himself supplies to them that imagine they are giving them to him
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But those who think to perform sacrifices To him with blood and fat and whole bird offerings and to honor him with such honors
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Seem to me in no way different than those who show the same respect towards deaf images For the one class think fit to make offerings to things unable to participate in the honor the other class to one who is in need of nothing paragraph 4
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But again their scruples concerning meats and their superstition relating to the Sabbath and the vanity of their circumcision and the dissimulation
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Of their fasting and new moons. I do not suppose you need to learn from me are ridiculous and unworthy of any consideration
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For of the things created by God for the use of man to receive some is created well, but to collide others as useless and superfluous is not this impious and Again to lie against God as if he forbade us to do any good thing on the
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Sabbath day is not this profane Again to vaunt the mutilation of the flesh as a token of election as though for this reason they were particularly beloved by God is not this ridiculous and to watch the stars in the moon and to keep the observance of months and of days and Distinguish the arrangements of God and the changes of the seasons according to their own impulses
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Making some into festivals and others into times of mourning who would regard this as an exhibition of godliness and not much more of folly
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That the Christians are right therefore in holding aloof from the common silliness and error of the Jews and from their excessive fussiness and pride
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I consider that thou has been sufficiently instructed But as regards the mystery of their own religion expect not that you can be instructed by man thus the reading through paragraph 4 paragraph 5
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For Christians are not distinguished from the rest of mankind either in locality or in speech or in customs
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For they dwell not somewhere in the cities of their own Neither they use some different language nor practice an extraordinary kind of life nor again
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Do they possess any invention discovered by any intelligence or study of ingenious men?
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Nor are they masters of any human dogma as some are But while they dwell in cities of Greeks and barbarians as the lot of each is cast and Follow the native customs and dress and food and the other arrangements of life yet the
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Constitution of our own citizenship Which they set forth is marvelous and confessedly contradicts expectation
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They dwell in their own countries but only as sojourners they bear their share in all things as citizens and they endure all hardships as strangers
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Every foreign country is a fatherland to them and every fatherland is foreign
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They marry like all are the men and they beget children, but they do not cast away their offspring
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They have their meals in common but not their wives
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They find themselves in the flesh and yet they live not after the flesh Their existence is on earth
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But their citizenship is in heaven They obey the established laws and they surpass the laws in their own lives
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They love all men and they are persecuted by all they are ignored and yet they are condemned
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They are put to death and yet they are endued with life They are in beggary and yet they and yet they make many rich They are in want of all things and yet they abound in all things
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They are dishonored and yet they are glorified in their dishonor They are evil spoken of and yet they are vindicated.
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They are reviled and they bless They are insulted and they respect doing good.
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They are punished as evildoers Being punished they rejoice and if they were thereby as if they were thereby quickened by life war is waged against them as aliens by the
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Jews and Persecution is carried on against them by the Greeks and yet those that hate them cannot tell the reason of their hostility paragraph 6 in a word
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What the soul is in a body? This the Christians are in the world
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The soul is spread through all the members of the body and Christians through the diverse cities of the world
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The soul has its abode in the body yet. It is not of the body So Christians have their abode in the world yet.
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They are not of the world The soul which is invisible is guarded in the body which is visible
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So Christians are recognized as being in the world and yet their religion remains invisible
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The flesh hates the soul and wages war with it though It receives no wrong because it is forbidden to indulge in pleasures
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So the world hates Christians though it receives no wrong from them because they themselves
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Because they set themselves against its pleasures The soul loves the flesh which hates it and the members so Christians love those that hate them
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The soul is enclosed in the body and yet itself holds the body together
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So Christians are kept in the world as in a prison house and yet they themselves hold the world together
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The soul though itself immortal dwells in a mortal tabernacle So Christians sojourn amidst perishable things while they look for the imperishability which is in the heavens the soul when hardly treated in the matter of meats and drinks is improved and So Christians when punished increase more and more daily
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So great is the office for which God has appointed them in which it is not lawful for them to decline
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Paragraph 7 For it is no earthly just by the way There's only ten paragraphs for it is no earthly discovery as I said, which was committed to them
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Neither do they care to guard so carefully any mortal invention nor have they entrusted to them the dispensation of human mysteries
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But truly the Almighty Creator of the universe the invisible
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God himself From heaven planted among men the truth and the holy teaching which surpasses the wit of men and Fixed it firmly in their hearts not as any man might imagine by sending to mankind a subaltern or Angel or ruler or one of those that direct the affairs of men or one of those who have been entrusted with the dispensations in heaven but the very artificer and creator of the universe himself
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By whom he made the heavens by whom he enclosed the sea in its proper bounds whose mysteries all the elements faithfully observe
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From whom the Sun has received even the measure of the courses of the day to keep them
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Whom the moon obeys as he bids her shine by night Whom the stars obey as they follow the course of the moon
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By whom all things are ordered and bounded and placed in subjection the heavens and the things that are in the heavens the earth and the things that are in the earth the sea and the things
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That are in the sea fire air Abyss the things that are in the heights the things that are in the depths the things that are between the two him
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He sent unto them Was he sent do you think as any man might suppose to establish a sovereignty to inspire fear and terror?
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Not so but in gentleness and meekness Has he sent him as a king might send his son who is a king?
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He sent him as sending God He sent him as a man unto men
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He sent him as he sent him as summon summoning Not as persecuting he sent him as loving
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Not as judging For he will send him for he will send him in judgment and who shall endure his presence
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Do you not see them thrown to wild beasts and so they may deny the
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Lord and yet not overcome? Do you not see that the more of them are punished just so many others abound?
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These look not like the works of a man. They are the power of God. They are the proofs of his presence
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Paragraph 8 for what man at all had any knowledge what
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God was before he came or Do you accept the empty and nonsensical statements of those pretentious philosophers of whom some said that God was fire?
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They call that God were unto they themselves shall go and others water and others some other of the elements
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Which were created by God and yet if any of these statements is worthy of acceptance Anyone other created thing might just as well be made out to be
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God No, all this is the quackery and deceit of the magicians and no man has either seen or recognized him but he revealed himself and He revealed himself by faith whereby alone it is given to see
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God For God the master and creator of the universe who made all things and arranged them in order was found to be not only friendly to men, but also long -suffering and Such indeed.
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He was always and is and will be kindly and good and dispassionate and true and he alone is good and Having conceived a great and unutterable scheme
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He committed it to his son. I'm sorry He communicated it to his son alone
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For so long as he kept and guard his wise design as a mystery he seemed to neglect us and to be careless about us, but when he revealed it through his beloved son and Manifested the purpose which he had prepared from the beginning
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He gave us all these gifts at once participation in his benefits and Sight and understanding of mysteries which none of us ever would have expected paragraph 9
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Like I said, there's only 10 paragraphs paragraph 9 Having thus planned everything already in his mind with his son
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He permitted us during the former time to be born along by disorderly impulses as we desired
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Led astray by pleasures and lusts not at all because he took delight in our sins But because he bore with us not because he approved of the past season of iniquity but because he was creating the present season of righteousness that Being convicted in the pastime by our own deeds as unworthy of life we might now be made deserving by the goodness of God and having made clear our inability to enter into the kingdom of God of ourselves might be enabled by the ability of God and When our iniquity had been fully accomplished and it had been made perfectly
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Manifest that punishment and death were expected as its recompense and the season came which
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God had ordained When henceforth he should manifest his goodness and power.
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Oh the exceeding great kindness and love of God He hated us not neither rejected us nor bore us malice
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But was long -suffering impatient and in pity for us took upon himself our sins and Himself parted with his son as a ransom for us the holy for the lawless
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The guilt the guileless for the evil the just for the unjust The incorruptible for the corruptible the immortal for the mortal for what else but his righteousness would have covered our sins
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In whom was it possible for us lawless and ungodly men to have been justified
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Save only in the Son of God. Oh The sweet exchange.
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Oh the inscrutable creation Oh the unexpected benefits then the that the iniquity of many should be concealed in one righteous man and The righteousness of one should justify many that are iniquitous
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Having then in the former time Demonstrated the inability of our nature to obtain life and having now revealed a
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Savior able to save even creatures which have no ability He willed that for both reasons we should believe in his goodness and should regard him as nurse father teacher counselor physician mind light honor glory strength and life
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That was paragraph 9 in case you missed the counting but that's the key paragraph we'll be looking at it again a moment final paragraph because it breaks off suddenly and Paragraphs 11 and 12 were plainly written by someone else at another time.
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So it just breaks off. That's It's amazing. We have as much of it as we have this faith if you also desire
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Apprehends first full knowledge of the Father for God loved men for whose sake he made the world to whom he subjected all things that Are in the earth to whom he gave reason and mind whom alone
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He permitted to look up to the heavens whom he created after his own image to whom he sent his only begotten
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Son To whom he promised the kingdom which is in heaven and will give it to those that have loved him
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And when you have attained this full knowledge with what joy Do you think that you will be filled or how?
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will you love him that so loved you before and Loving him you will be an imitator of his goodness and marvel not that a man can be an imitator of God He can if God wills it
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For happiness consists not in lordship over one's neighbors nor in desiring to have more than weaker men
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Nor in possessing wealth and using force to inferiors Neither can anyone imitate
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God in these matters nay these lie outside his greatness But whoever takes upon himself the burden of his neighbor
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Whoever desires to benefit one that is worse off in that in which he himself is superior
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Whoever may whoever by supplying to those that are in want Possessions which he received from God becomes a
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God to those who receive them from him He is an imitator of God Then though you are placed on earth.
38:27
You shall behold the God that lives in heaven Then shall you begin to declare the mysteries of God then
38:34
Shall you both love and admire those that are punished because they will not deny God then you shall then shall
38:42
Then you shall condemn the deceit and error of the world When you shall perceive the true life, which is in the heavens when you shall despise the apparent death
38:51
Which is here on earth when you shall fear the real death, which which is reserved for those
38:56
That shall be condemned to the eternal fire that shall punish those delivered over to it unto the end then
39:04
You shall admire those who endure for righteousness sake The fire that is for a season and shall count them blessed when you perceive that fire
39:17
Breaks off at that point breaks off at that point so There is the epistle to Diognetus Aren't you blessed but I?
39:35
Wanted you to Catch and and I slowed down a few times Catch a few things section 7 section 7 of the epistle to Diognetus Who is sent?
39:58
According No, I got to keep these things on man. Once you leave them on for a while now, I can't see nothing
40:06
But truly the Almighty Creator of the universe the invisible God Himself from heaven planted among men the truth and the holy teaching which surpasses
40:13
The wit of man and fixed it firmly in their hearts not as any man might imagine By saying to man by saying to man to mankind
40:23
And then he lists what he didn't send and then he says who did God send? This is one of the strongest affirmations of the deity of Christ in the early church
40:37
He sent the very artificer and creator of the universe himself by whom he made the heavens by whom he enclosed the sea in its proper bounds whose
40:45
Mysteries all the elements faithfully observed for whom the Sun has received in the measure of the course of the day to keep them whom the
40:51
Moon obeys as he bids her shine by night whom the stars obey as they follow the course of the moon by whom all things
40:57
Are ordered and bounded in places subjection the heavens and the things are in the heavens the earth and the things are in the earth the sea and the things are in the sea fire air abyss the things are in the heights the things are in the depths the
41:07
Things that are between the two him he sent unto them Wow You know,
41:12
I think of Ignatius is 10 to 14 times of referring to Jesus as God I think
41:18
I think of Ephesians 7 and 9 in Ignatius's epistles
41:25
Super high Christology. You've got Melito Sardis at the end of the 2nd century
41:31
I provided that quotation in the Forgotten Trinity Should add this one in the future if I do another edition,
41:38
I should add that that quotation To that chapter in though. We just did a new edition so it could be 20 years
41:46
But I mean this is incredible You know,
41:52
I I remember these two jail was witnesses that came to our offices Wow back when we were on Camelback So that was a long time ago and I Remember I could still see this in my mind's eye
42:06
This Jehovah's Witness a fairly brave one to walk into our offices Remember where he was sitting.
42:13
I remember we had a paper folder right behind him. I remember that So the two offices this is the front office if you're looking out toward the gun store is the right -hand side and This guy is
42:29
Telling me That No one believed in the
42:37
Doctrine of the Trinity until the 12th century Now obviously he got things a little bit wrong because most
42:45
Jehovah's Witnesses will at least say fourth century with the Council of Nicaea but here you have such an incredible testimony to the deity of Christ and it's
43:00
Again would be nice to have a firmer date But it's long before Nicaea This is a primitive testimony to the deity of Christ section 7 very very important Then you have he sent him as sending
43:21
God he sent him as a man in the man He sent him as a Savior as using persuasion not force the force for force is no attribute of God He sent him as summoning not as persecuting he sent him as loving not judging now you might go
43:35
Ah, it sounds pretty, you know wimpy about who Jesus is. No because it says for he will send him in judgment so it's recognizing the difference between the first coming of Christ where he is giving himself as sacrifice and then the second coming of Christ where he will come as judge and he says
43:57
Who shall endure his presence, I mean that's just drawing directly from Old Testament language and concerning God's judgment
44:07
These look not like the works of a man. They are the power of God. They are proofs of his of his presence now before I get into sections eight and nine
44:20
Most of you recognize that The primary reason for my
44:27
Reading this is that we have been dealing with a particular
44:33
Promotion of a highly dubious Not shared by the vast majority of Christian historians theory put forth by dr.
44:46
Kenneth Wilson in his Dissertation published by more
44:51
C Beck Augustine's conversion from traditional free choice to non free free will and of course the
45:02
Popularized version thereof the foundation of Augustinian Calvinism and It has been said to us for a few weeks as we have been listening to an interview laying foundational issues
45:23
Talking about how to do meaningful historical study how to honor Those who came before us
45:31
By first seeking to understand what they believed in the context in which they lived rather than Transporting them out of their context into our own
45:45
Something we have been doing on this program for literally decades If you go back 20 years to when
45:53
I was responding to Dave Hunt and What Dave Hunt said about early church fathers in regards to Roman Catholicism.
46:02
I criticized Dave Hunt because Dave Hunt Was anachronistic he took
46:13
Writers back then ignored their context knew nothing about what their context was Read them as if they were modern writers and then judge them on the basis of what we know today
46:23
Not what they would have known the context that they would have been in or even how they used language at that time
46:30
So we have been consistent for a lengthy period of time Part of the presentation of the dissertation and of course we were as we provided this background information
46:43
Just get the dissertation. It's the scholarly stuff. You're not to be able to handle any of that stuff
46:50
Year, we add your league blah blah blah blah blah blah Well, so we have the dissertation now we have it in hardcopy and to make sure that dr
47:01
Wilson received some funding We bought the PDF version as well.
47:06
That also helps me to do a lot of searching in the entirety of the dissertation to be able to find terms
47:17
Count Repetition of phrase a phrase eology if you're gonna dig into something as we have been challenged to do
47:27
Then it's really helpful to have that and there are lots of works that I have both in hardback hardcopy as well as Kindle or logos or cordons and so on and so forth and so We haven't finished listening to the interview yet we will
47:47
We've got plenty of time Well, I don't know but we're gonna take as much time as it takes because it's allowing us to teach a
47:59
Subject that the first class that I taught upon graduation from Seminary was church history at Grand Canyon University and So I've been teaching church history now since 1990.
48:19
So Did you put some geritol in?
48:26
Yeah, did could you get me some geritol because I just realized I've been teaching church history for 30 years
48:33
I Need to adjust my dentures here. Okay 30 years
48:42
So We've got a little background in it and I enjoy teaching it and I have said many times
48:48
Having a firm grasp of church history is one of the most helpful things that you can have in doing apologetics
48:55
I also think it's edifying for Christians to recognize that Christ has been building his church
49:02
And he's been doing it with very imperfect people for a long long time. Okay, so There are a lot of people out there that don't want to hear any of this stuff they don't care and they're not listening
49:18
Okay No problem we do we do for the people who want this kind of information so as Most of you know the
49:35
Presentation that is given to us in these materials Actually makes the assertion that Everyone before Augustine had the same view
49:47
Everybody for Augustine Believed that God's election of people was based upon his foreknowledge of future events everybody believed that now in the dissertation
50:03
He's already mentioned that there are certain sources that are really not relevant and we can't say Because they don't address the subject which is what must be said
50:13
That has to be said We don't know what a lot of people believed but he does
50:20
Deal with the epistle to Diognetus and if you were listening carefully if you're listening carefully you
50:27
You heard some stuff You heard some things that may have made you go
50:34
Really that's interesting So Let me
50:40
I forgot to open the PDF so But we have it sitting right here. So when you look at chapter 2 and If you have the hard copy or the
50:53
PDF, this is on begins on page 43 This is what we read from Dr.
51:01
Wilson and By the way, I posted That if you want the hard copy of this material,
51:08
I don't have it up in front of me I'm going back over it again but I put together
51:15
Saturday night an article that I posted on our website and Facebook and Twitter so it is on the website, isn't it?
51:25
Yeah, it is. It's up on the website at AOMIN .org on the blog It's on the
51:30
Facebook page it's the second of The Interactions with the dissertation
51:38
Which I was told Repeatedly, I would not be able to engage.
51:43
I'm not sure why But we're engaging with So page 43 of the actual dissertation says the following Epistle to Diognetus one paragraph in this a piece epistle
52:03
Diognetus 9 5 through 6 Could represent and then we have one of the 89 times
52:12
See what having PDF does a nine times you have all cap not all capitalized but each first letter capitalized this phrase divine unilateral predetermination of individuals
52:27
Eternal destinies in here.
52:32
Thankfully, it is turned into an acronym dupied D -u -p -i -e -d dupied
52:40
Which he admits in here he coined This is his phrase. No one else has ever used it.
52:47
There's a reason for that. It's inaccurate It is absurd to apply it to the breadth of the number of people it's applied to and no serious
52:57
Historian would ever do that. I Know those are strong words But we will substantiate over and over and over again
53:09
That that concept as he understands it is he does not derive that understanding from the individuals that he's studying
53:18
That is an externally derived idea that is then shoved into The context of each of these individuals rather than deriving their beliefs from their materials this is why
53:32
I say I Don't know how this got past committee
53:38
Because your dr. Vadar. I know I could not get away with that and I wouldn't let anybody else get away with it
53:50
Um This is where your advisor your dr. Vadar your committee before your defense is
53:57
Supposed to go. Oh, wait a minute You're assuming a bunch of stuff here that you you don't even begin to substantiate
54:06
That's when it's supposed to happen. I don't know why it didn't happen Maybe we'll find out someday.
54:11
I don't know but so you've got dupied so once again
54:16
One paragraph in this epistle could represent divine unilateral predetermination of individuals eternal destinies
54:24
Then you have this sentence however other paragraphs do not allow this interpretation you then have a
54:39
Disjointed barely coherent
54:45
Set of citations that you you have to try to interpret to figure out
54:52
How is this meant to be substantiated because you see in a dissertation when
55:01
Let me just say I'm I'm a PhD student I've already done two doctorates ones demon once a
55:06
PhD I'm doing a PhD in a historical field When you do a
55:12
PhD in historical my dr. Vadar did his PhD under Metzger at Princeton, okay
55:19
That means I cannot make Unsubstantiated assertions in what
55:26
I'm writing and I know that if I make an assertion I must substantiate it from the material itself so if I if I state
55:43
Let me just come up with something here if I state that the
55:50
CBGM analysis of The Singular readings of p45 in acts
56:04
Results in p45 being separated from any meaningful genealogical transmission line
56:15
Then I need to substantiate that I need to be able to back that up from the data that I've presented By the way, that's true.
56:21
That's one of the issues I'm dealing with is the singular readings of p45 Fundamentally fog the relationship that p45 should bear to the manuscripts that are written contemporaneously with it, which is why
56:34
We need in the CBGM tools to be able to filter singular readings Okay, that's what
56:41
I'm supposed to be thinking about these days not this But anyway what? Yes, I was wondering what you were doing back there there's p45, but what's not that's that's one page
56:54
That's from John chapter 10 That's one of the largest fragments of p45.
57:01
We have had people write in and ask What is that thing? What is it? What's the significance? Well, the significance is this is one of the pages that I'm working with In working on p45
57:16
CBGM and all the issues related there, too And Lord willing we'll be able to press on with that in the future
57:31
Sure, given what's going on in the world, but we're gonna do our best Anyway, so the point is
57:38
I know something about dissertations Been there done that I know what
57:44
I've read many a dissertation before I debated Bart Ehrman, I Probably willing to bet
57:53
I could be wrong about this But I bet I'm the only person that's ever debated
57:58
Bart Ehrman that read his dissertation More than once it was a great dissertation.
58:06
It's now completely dated by the way Completely dated because on it was on the rise of the proto -Alexandrian text type
58:16
And CBGM has pretty well blown a hole through that. So anyway has nothing to do with his scholarship at all.
58:24
It's just Time has passed new information has come into in existence anyway, so This is an assertion however
58:35
Other paragraphs do not allow this interpretation So if you're gonna put this into a dissertation
58:46
What is incumbent upon you two things and If I had been a reader,
58:53
I would have gone after this like anything. I don't know who the readers were
58:59
But they should be ashamed of themselves They really should and I honestly believe if you would get any serious historian to look at these things
59:11
I am half tempted to go ahead and buy another hard copy of this and Send it to a particular serious historian of my close acquaintance.
59:23
I But I I'm concerned about what it would do to his blood pressure so anyway I Just give me that look, you know exactly what
59:33
I'm talking about So if I put into a dissertation This phrase this sentence.
59:41
However, other paragraphs do not allow this interpretation. There's two things I have to do a I have to cite the paragraph
59:48
I'm talking about He doesn't he gives the reference.
59:53
He doesn't cite it. He'll cite all sorts of other stuff He cites it it honestly seems to me as I look at this section on Diognetus Which is just over a page in length.
01:00:03
I mean grand total. It's it's just a little bit on this page I'm one side of a page. Yeah, not even maybe that much but it really seems to me that what you have here are his notes and Citations that he then went back and loosely connected them together with a couple sentences and let it go and it didn't get challenged that's what it looks like to me and so the thesis is
01:00:35
That Augustine was the first one to come up this stuff. So when you say that someone writing in 135
01:00:42
Approximately though there is no discussion of the dating of Diognetus at all
01:00:49
It's not just not even mentioned. It's just put in with the earliest authors, but it's like What who knows when?
01:00:56
So there's no citation no interaction with the phraseology But there's all sorts of other citations from the epistle in Greek But without any almost any meaningful
01:01:10
Argumentation provided at all read the article at the website. I provided all of it Interacted with every shred of it.
01:01:18
Remember all of you in the in the provisionist camp Who just a few weeks ago was saying why he's never gonna deal with it.
01:01:25
He can't eat them haven't seen a one of you in interact with that article not a one
01:01:34
Because the only way you can is if you can read Greek So The second thing that you would have to provide is meaningful counter -argumentation to the specific elements of the cited text that could because it says could represent duped so What in this text?
01:02:09
could represent duped Well, you heard it There were a lot of things in here
01:02:18
There were a lot of things in here so in Paragraph, I'm sorry.
01:02:24
Well paragraph eight Yeah, remember
01:02:30
Kirk in in Rathacon If He could pull it off so can
01:02:40
I in paragraph eight toward the end and I forgot to Mark this one in my
01:02:50
Greek text. I have the Greek text of Diagnetus in front of me
01:02:58
Actually, I have it a number of different forms in my accordance library And I also have it in log us
01:03:04
I don't want I'm sure it's probably available in a couple of the others I don't want to Make anybody angry at me
01:03:13
Let me see if I can find this here but notice this phrase and having conceived a great and unutterable scheme
01:03:26
He communicated it to his son alone Now that's before the section he quotes
01:03:33
Then that sound like God's sovereign decree Then that sound like inter
01:03:42
Trinitarian consideration of what we would call the Eternal covenant of redemption.
01:03:50
He had conceived a great and an utterable scheme. He communicated to his son alone
01:03:57
And then a little bit below after that But when he revealed it through his beloved son and manifested the purpose which he had prepared from the beginning
01:04:08
Which he had prepared from the beginning. It sounds like Paul to me. It sounds like Ephesians 1
01:04:14
This found sounds like sovereignty not based upon Wonder what's gonna happen to oh, look at what happens.
01:04:22
Oh No The purpose which he had prepared from the beginning
01:04:31
Hmm, I can understand why this could represent doopied, but now let's get into section 9
01:04:42
Having thus planned everything already in his mind with his son
01:04:53
Yeah Sounds like the sovereign decree of God Doesn't it? Having thus planned everything
01:05:04
With his son Already in his mind. Hmm Aren't you provisionist into pawn pass upon Isn't that everything
01:05:17
I mean you really do emphasize the the use of Pawn in that way or pawn
01:05:24
Todd depends depending on you know, how it's being used. That's what's used here It's very first word He planned everything
01:05:36
Already in his mind not by looking down the corridors of time and seeing what man was gonna do
01:05:42
He planned everything already in his mind with his son That's interesting
01:05:53
Then let's see Then a little bit later on we might now be made deserving by by by the goodness of God I thought
01:06:06
Leighton doesn't believe in Prevenient grace. I've heard him go through he has that entire list of People in the
01:06:17
Old Testament because they were good Then God did this out of the other thing Huh, we might now be made deserving by the goodness of God.
01:06:27
Not that we deserve the goodness of God or That by our doing we've become
01:06:34
Deserving of the goodness of God and having made clear our Inability And having made clear our inability to enter into the kingdom of God of ourselves
01:06:50
Might be enabled by the ability of God So We have a dunaton in Ability Who uses that phrase?
01:07:09
inability Well, it's not the provisionists and it's not the
01:07:15
Arminians It's it's not the open theists or even the
01:07:21
Pelagians or the semi Pelagians Inability That's a term you hear from them.
01:07:29
They're modern modern justice. This is That Monergists, yeah
01:07:37
Huh and then you need to have the dunaton of God his ability, huh
01:07:49
That's interesting Here, you've got somebody talking about man's inability and God's ability in the context of salvation to enter into life
01:08:00
I Wonder why that got skipped by dr. Wilson in his dissertation hmm, maybe could it be could because just down below that you have
01:08:11
But when the time here alpha de hot kairos haunt a oz pra etheta
01:08:24
When the time or the season came Which God had ordained?
01:08:35
Who uses that language? people who believe in the sovereignty of God and his control over human events
01:08:45
Huh? So then you have the Sun as a ransom just for the unjust
01:08:54
Only by his righteousness could our sins be covered the sweet exchange
01:09:01
Justification by faith in Christ alone I mean this if you weren't just a mending almost every sentence in this section and I don't know what you were doing, uh,
01:09:15
I Mean listen this Oh the unexpected evidence that the iniquity of many should be concealed in one righteous man and The righteousness of one should justify many that are iniquitous.
01:09:32
Do you think? This guy has seen Romans chapter 5 before Yeah Yeah, that's exactly where it's coming from Romans chapter 5 then we have having then in the former time
01:09:51
Demonstrated the inability of our nature to obtain life
01:09:58
Inability again Yeah. Yeah, there's There it is. There's that inability of our of our foosa.
01:10:06
Oh, it's our nature by nature We are unable I do Natan This guy has a reformed anthropology
01:10:17
Not a provisionist not a traditionalist Anthropology, why just give the reference and then skip to other stuff in Diognetus just wondering
01:10:31
It does make you wonder could it be
01:10:37
Because dr. Wilson has no response to what Diognetus actually said and that the
01:10:45
Facile References that were given if they were to be placed right there in light of what we're reading here would be seen for the facile excuses that they were possible
01:10:58
For all you provisionists that were going we need to have a debate and you have date right now Do you think you'd want to debate this?
01:11:06
Then you want to debate what? Diognetus is what math a taste is view was and writing to Diognetus on these subjects
01:11:15
Based on the original languages. Yeah, okay
01:11:22
So by nature, I Think we need to in fact,
01:11:29
I'm gonna do something here in my in Accordance real quick. Okay. So and again, this is on I included this information and the quotations in the article a omen
01:11:40
Or look it up on the blog. It's the last thing on the blog. Well once this errors, it won't be the last thing but having then in the former time demonstrated the
01:11:51
Inability of our natures to obtain life
01:11:58
By nature we do not have this ability and now having revealed
01:12:07
It's the normal term using the New Testament of Showing so in fact, it's I'm pretty sure
01:12:13
I'm just top top my head. Oh, yeah James chapter 2 show me Show me your faith by your works
01:12:20
Dykes on yeah, this is Dykes us right here so and now having shown the
01:12:30
Savior Dunaton so design Able to save the
01:12:38
Savior who is able to save man. That's Hebrews 725 That's the same terminology
01:12:47
He is able to save to the uttermost Hebrews 725 to save who?
01:12:54
even And this is what and I provide this on the website here.
01:13:00
It is a dunaton sudsign Chi ta a dunata
01:13:07
So the Savior he has shown the Savior Who is able to save even the unable ones
01:13:18
Literally the ones lacking ability. This guy's a monergist in the second century
01:13:30
He's a monergist and Wilson's dissertation requires them all to be what?
01:13:38
Synergists, I'm just reading you the stuff
01:13:46
I'm just translating the original language for you Let me ask a simple question of you provisionists.
01:13:56
How many of you checked him out on this? How many of you? those of you in your
01:14:03
Facebook groups So confident How many of you looked it up Do you have can you can you pop up the screen?
01:14:19
You're not seeing it. Oh That's not what you're supposed to see. Oh You know why you here how about now
01:14:30
Ha ha ha. I don't know why that happened But you you fired it up after I already had everything on my screens
01:14:39
I think that's probably what happened because remember I said, hey everyone anything went black. Here's Now I'm trying to do this long distance
01:14:51
There it is boys it's hard to do from this distance ding ding ding ding ding ding Okay there and now the
01:15:03
Savior shown Dykes on Dykes us able to save Even Chi being used in the sense of even there ta
01:15:12
I do not ta those who lack ability He has ability they have the alpha privative do not have ability
01:15:23
Okay provisionist group Okay latent flowers
01:15:29
Do you look that up? Why'd I have to look it up? Why is that my job?
01:15:38
Did you check it out? But look, I know it's a huge book Why do you think this takes so much time?
01:15:47
Why do you think this takes so much time? Because it takes time to do this. I was sitting out on my front porch
01:15:56
Saturday night before Easter Reading and then you go inside didn't want to because it's beautiful outside man.
01:16:04
It's been nice recently and And you mark this stuff up and then you stay up the wife comes in kisses you good night says don't stay up too late and You write it up and post it on the website and not too many people get overly excited about it.
01:16:22
I understand that I Understand that I get it. That's why it's take so much time if you're gonna do it, right and you all challenged me to do
01:16:36
It right, so I can't imagine any of you would be complaining that I would be checking things so closely
01:16:44
They are complaining I'm a big fat meanie weenie I've actually lost a lot of weight
01:16:50
Lisa. I'm not a big fat meanie weenie. I'm a big meanie. I'm a big medium weight meanie weenie
01:16:58
Soon to be a lightweight meanie weenie. Yeah Okay, so I now the fun part is how do
01:17:06
I get that back? I just realized it's I I can't
01:17:13
I can't grab it. Oh Hold on a second. I gotta get it back here.
01:17:20
Oh No Did you zoom it? Unzoom it cuz
01:17:25
I can't I can't grab anything now Okay Oh Man, see
01:17:36
I I don't know what's going on here Uh No, well you got it now and I can't get back to it
01:17:51
I Can't I can't get it to what where'd the radio free
01:17:56
Geneva thing come from? You got to get out of the way so I can under I can find the button until you move that.
01:18:04
There you go There. Thank you.
01:18:11
There we go. Phew. All right Okay Just a couple of things here um
01:18:31
Okay, but I do have to show you show you this and again I put this up on the
01:18:41
The Well, I'm not gonna be able to show it to you here because I'd have to drag it back over there again, but There's one other thing.
01:18:50
You've just got to see here. And this is this is really amazing Uh again makes me go hmm wonder why this didn't get cited next sentence next sentence
01:19:01
And having now revealed a savior able to save even those creatures that have no ability he willed actually it's continuation sense
01:19:08
He willed that for both reasons We should believe in his goodness and should regard him as nurse father teacher counsel
01:19:19
When you look at the Greek It's list it's literally
01:19:28
Able a they pistew on Hamas pistew on Hamas He willed us to believe
01:19:42
He willed us to believe The same term bull am
01:19:47
I that is used in Ephesians 1 it's used in Acts chapter 4 where God predestines according to his will
01:19:56
It's used in Ephesians 1 like I said, this is the term and we've already seen him clearly pulling from Paul So here you have this second century writer speaking of God's divine will
01:20:13
Willing us pistew on to believe The very thing the provisionists say
01:20:21
God doesn't do right there in the epistle to Diogenes unrefuted
01:20:31
I Challenge anyone go I put it in the article go read
01:20:38
How Wilson tries say well, we can't interpret it that way because of these other paragraphs
01:20:45
There is no argument given none none none so You asked me to do this you challenged me to do this
01:21:03
I'm doing it and the process Hopefully edifying a lot of believers
01:21:13
To recognize when you're told that what we believe today has never been believed before it's nice to see
01:21:20
It's not found in everybody. I am NOT the one arguing that there is a universal
01:21:27
Unviolated Everybody believed the same thing. You heard it. I played it for you.
01:21:32
I don't have it queued up right now Go listen to the last program. I played it for you when with laughter
01:21:39
Ken Wilson says, huh? How can you find anything that all Christians agreed on?
01:21:45
Isn't that amazing and they did? They didn't and Every scholar that I know of who's teaching anywhere knows that except for Kendall's He's the outlier.
01:21:59
He's the one way out there with this duped
01:22:06
Stuff. There you go. There you go. I'm not gonna tell you what rich said
01:22:18
So, oh, yeah, I know. I know it's just me.
01:22:23
It's just me Okay Now I'm gonna go ahead and do this.
01:22:31
I'm sorry I'm sorry, I'm gonna go ahead and do this. It's totally different subject, but I'm gonna go ahead and do it.
01:22:37
So Ha ha apple cider vinegar, babe, whoo -hoo, huh?
01:22:50
Sure. Why not? It's yeah, that's right.
01:22:57
That's right. That's okay. You take a shot of apple cider vinegar Not undiluted obviously it's in club soda
01:23:07
It's really good. And it's also really good for you, especially if you're older and you're trying to lose weight which
01:23:15
Given what's coming in the future may be real easy for all of us when you can't get anything to eat. Yeah, anyway
01:23:23
Okay Total shift of gears We're the clutch is smoking right now total shifting of gears but sticking with Story time with Uncle Jimmy if oh man, that thing is huge I Think the reason that the
01:23:56
Mormon Church cancelled the general conference is it just everybody got sick and tired of carrying this around But those of you not familiar with this this is called the quad
01:24:09
It's a well. Yeah, there are smaller quads, but they don't get much thinner They don't get thinner.
01:24:15
This is this every quads this thick when you think about it King James Version of the Bible Book of Mormon. Dr. Coz for a great price all four books of LDS scripture bound together in one
01:24:27
Volume called the quad Easier way is to have the Bible separate and then have what's called the triple
01:24:34
Book of Mormon. Dr Coz for a great price a lot of people do that and I have a triple down there.
01:24:40
But anyway Uh Last week last weekend
01:24:49
I mentioned the last program I mentioned That I was watching the brief interaction between Sam Shimon and Kwaku L And in Quakers opening statement, he argued
01:25:06
That He has looked at every alleged false prophecy of Joseph Smith and none of them are
01:25:15
Valid that Joseph Smith never gave a false prophecy now 30 years ago,
01:25:25
I wrote a book Actually over 30 years ago now
01:25:31
I think it came out in 90 No, I Letters to a
01:25:40
Mormon Elder that book has Been blessed
01:25:48
It has been blessed. In fact, I'll tell you a quick story. I Had written it and it was in editing.
01:25:54
So I had it in printout form in A notebook and I was proofing it.
01:26:01
So that's a common Stage in the writing of a book.
01:26:07
It's not a small book and I had a meeting with a woman who had been a part of the church.
01:26:14
That was part of that time North Phoenix Baptist Church who had She may not have been a member she may have just been a member of a
01:26:21
Bible study class as I recall Anyway, she had become a Mormon and Some people went on outreach visiting members of the
01:26:33
Bible study found out this had happened And they knew about me they asked if I could meet with her she came to the office again on Camelback and We sit down the office and I saw
01:26:48
I start saying so what convinced you to believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer and it's like What?
01:26:56
I don't believe Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer. What convinced you to believe in the plurality of God? I don't believe in it.
01:27:02
Well What happened was she had converted to Mormonism on the minimal
01:27:10
Presentation program and It's the
01:27:15
Andy Stanley approach. Yeah. Well, I really do need to get that clip queued up for this week because Andy Stanley once again
01:27:23
Decided to tell everybody that no one before the resurrection were believers Which makes absolute hash out of all of Romans chapter 4 gone
01:27:35
But that's that's all all Andy was his weird dispensational stuff. Anyway and so She's just looking at me like what and so I'm I grabbed the book which is not in print yet But that I'm using for the editing process and I start reading quotes for her and she's like Well, I have that book.
01:28:02
I Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith Mormon doctrine Bruce Armacanti, etc, etc.
01:28:07
So I actually let her take take the printout of the book and About a week to ten days later she she calls me up and she says
01:28:19
I am stunned I my Mormon friends didn't tell me any of this stuff and Every Time you quote something and I've got the book and I look it up you're quoting it in context and accurately and she left
01:28:38
She's like no way Not no. No, and of course she was a little upset to be honest with you that she had been
01:28:47
Misled and had been given so little information Very common for the
01:28:52
Mormon Church to do. It's very common for the missionaries If they can establish a relationship and make it sound like they're just a nicer version of what you already believe
01:29:03
They'll let you run into that other stuff slowly over time you see
01:29:09
So anyway So letters to a Mormon elder the book continues to assist in that way and I did address
01:29:22
False prophecies of Joseph Smith in the book but those who have read it know that I only addressed a small number of Prophecies for one simple reason
01:29:37
When you multiply the number of prophecies you give here's what's going to happen the believing
01:29:45
Mormon is Going to find the weakest possible example
01:29:52
Provide what seems to them to be a Reasonable response and Then dismiss all the others based upon having in their mind
01:30:05
Defeated that one example So what
01:30:11
I was doing in the book was recommending to everyone Go with your best go with the strong ones.
01:30:19
Don't just go with a large number and Try to do the scattergun thing.
01:30:24
Make sure that what you're presenting has a sound reasonable foundation to it. So Over the decades
01:30:35
When this issue has come up, this is not the first thing I want to raise but have I stood on the sidewalks in Salt Lake City and Read this text with a
01:30:44
Mormon and discussed it. Yes many times many many times Section 114 of the
01:30:51
Doctrine and Covenants section 114 reading from the current website of the
01:30:58
Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints revelation given through Joseph Smith the prophet at Firewest, Missouri, April 11th 1838 1838 this is
01:31:07
April of 1838 Church positions held by those who are not faithful will be given to others is the description provided by the church
01:31:19
Here it is. It's only two verses long. I Think I could quote it, but I'm gonna read it just so I don't make a mistake
01:31:28
Verily thus saith the Lord is wisdom my servant David W Patton yeah that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can and make a disposition of his merchandise
01:31:39
That he may perform a mission unto me next spring in the company with others
01:31:47
Even twelve including himself to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world
01:31:54
For verily thus saith the Lord that in as much as there are those among you who deny my name
01:32:01
Others shall be planted in their stead and receive their bishopric Amen Yeah, I could have done
01:32:10
Not because I'm smart But because I've been doing this for 30 years and it's amazing to me
01:32:17
That especially the stuff that I did back in my younger years repeatedly with literally thousands of missionaries
01:32:26
Sticks pretty well sticks pretty well over time really does now
01:32:33
I Sound like the most important prophecy in the world does it well No, it doesn't in fact if you are familiar with the
01:32:39
Doctrine and Covenants the Doctrine and Covenants has a bunch of stuff like this Because once Joseph Smith got in the swing of being prophet
01:32:49
Then he ran the church by receiving a word from the Lord it Sort of like listening to TBN except written down from the 1830s
01:32:58
It is it really is and I am certain that's exactly what Joseph Smith expected to continue
01:33:06
Even after his death, that's not how it's worked That's not how it's worked the
01:33:13
Doctrine and Covenants would be 10 ,000 pages long by now if the concept of continuing revelation
01:33:22
Had continued the way that it You know existed at that time so what you have is
01:33:33
That the Lord says by Joseph Smith that David W Patton, now David W Patton is one of the
01:33:38
Twelve Apostles He's one it's currently at that time in far west,
01:33:43
Missouri one of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church and That he is to settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can make a disposition of his merchandise
01:33:52
So he obviously had some kind of a store type situation providing merchandise to people so that he may perform a mission unto me next spring in Company with 11 other people 12 including himself
01:34:10
To testify of my name bear glad tidings unto all the world For verily
01:34:16
I say the Lord and as much as there are those among you deny my name others shall be planned their stead and receive Their bishopric so evidently there had been there was a lot of apostasy going on So evidently some people who had supposed to been go on a mission
01:34:26
Weren't because they left and so David W Patton is to do this in company with 11 other people now
01:34:38
Here is from David Daniel Ludlow a Companion to your study of the
01:34:45
Doctrine and Covenants quoting from Joseph Fielding Smith from Church history and modern revelation 285 quote on April 17th 1838 the
01:34:54
Prophet received a revelation for David W Patton Who had for some time been located in Missouri and with Elder Thomas B Marsh was maintaining a steady influence amidst the opposition of disaffected brethren
01:35:05
Including the three who had been appointed to preside David Whitmer William W Phelps and John Whitmer the
01:35:12
Lord called upon Elder Patton to set up his business as soon as possible make a Disposition of his merchandise and prepare to take a mission the following spring and company with others to preach the gospel to all the world
01:35:22
Elder Patton obedient to this revelation took steps to meet this call which had come to him
01:35:28
Events were to develop however, which would change the nature of his mission before the following spring could arrive now this is
01:35:41
Joseph Fielding Smith Interpreting these things and what was the nature of the events?
01:35:48
Well, David W Patton died October 25th 1838 in the
01:35:54
Battle of Crooked River He never lived to see the next spring as Revelation predicted now it makes perfect sense if Joseph Smith is just a man
01:36:08
That you would have this type of thing in His written quote -unquote revelations because Joseph Smith doesn't know what's going to happen in the future.
01:36:18
I Think one could possibly argue given the LDS doctrine of God That maybe
01:36:25
God doesn't know what's gonna happen in the future either. I Mean, I've never really seen to be honest with you a a meaningful
01:36:35
Presentation by a Mormon theologian on Why Mormon deity would have infallible knowledge of future events in light of the progressive nature of exaltation to God?
01:36:47
but anyway And Of course, we know in the
01:36:54
Bible that God does have this knowledge. That's why we debate open theists That's what Isaiah 40 through 48 is all about So on and so forth.
01:37:04
So how do you explain what happened? How does a
01:37:09
Mormon try to get around the story of David W Patton? well
01:37:16
Let's look at what happened to David W Patton Um some people have
01:37:25
Said well Patton must not have remained faithful to his calling and that's why he didn't get to go on his mission
01:37:31
Other people said well the mission he that he went on was heavenly spiritual that seems to be what
01:37:36
Joseph Fielding Smith was suggesting Let's look at the documentary history of the church
01:37:44
Pages of that doesn't give the volume pages 171 75. I need to have them
01:37:50
Don't have the volume in front of me And all of my old LDS stuff doesn't work very well anymore as far as It's just they don't update it.
01:37:59
But On the morning of October 25th Thursday, 1838 15
01:38:06
Let's see. Captain David W Patton is Dispatched with about 75 men to catch the mob
01:38:15
Who had Done some type of They had they had taken some
01:38:23
Mormon brethren captive there's fighting going on on the frontier. It's a wild frontier 1838 in Missouri, and so early morning
01:38:33
October 25th 15 of the company 15 the company were detached from the main body while 60 continued their
01:38:40
March till they arrived near the Ford of Crooked River or Creek Where they dismounted tied their horses and leaving four or five men to guard them
01:38:47
Proceeded towards the Ford not knowing the location of the encampment It was just as the dawn of light in the east when they were marching quietly along the road and near the top of the hill
01:38:57
Which descends to the river that the report of a gun was heard and young Patrick O 'Banion reeled out of the ranks and fell mortally wounded thus the work of death commenced when
01:39:07
Captain Patton ordered a charge and rushed down the hill on a fast trot and When within about 50 yards the camp formed a line
01:39:15
The mob formed a line under the bank of the river below their tents It was yet so dark that little could be seen by looking to the west
01:39:22
While the mob looking towards the dawning light could see Patton and his men When they fired a broadside and three or four of their brethren fell
01:39:30
Captain Patton ordered the fire returned which was instantly obeyed to great disadvantage in the darkness which yet continued
01:39:37
The fire was repeated by the mob and returned by Captain Patton's company who gave the watchword
01:39:43
God and Liberty Captain Patton then ordered a charge which was instantly obeyed the parties immediately came into contact with their swords and the mob was soon put to flight
01:39:52
Crossing the river at the Ford and such places they could get a chance In the pursuit while the mob fled from behind a tree
01:40:00
Wheeled and shot Captain Patton who instantly fell mortally wounded having received a large ball in his bowels then later on from the
01:40:10
DHC documentary church I Went with my brother Hiram and Lyman white to meet the brethren on their return near log
01:40:17
Creek where I saw Captain Patton in a most distressing situation His wound was incurable
01:40:23
Brother Patton was a very worthy man beloved by all good men who knew him He was one of the twelve apostles and died as he had lived a man of God and strong in the faith of a glorious Resurrection in a world where mobs will have no power or place
01:40:36
One of his last expressions to his wife was whatever you do. Oh do not deny the faith
01:40:41
Saturday the 27th brother Patton was buried this day at Far West and before the funeral I called it brother
01:40:47
Patton's house and while meditating on the scene before me in the presence of his friends I could not help pointing to his lifeless body and testifying there lies a man
01:40:55
That has done just as he said he would he has laid down his life for his friends. I believe that quotation is
01:41:03
Joseph Smith himself. Yes. What do you the source of that is documentary history of the church volume 5 page 394
01:41:14
Okay Remember back in the day you used to give us all these little notes to stick in our triples to take with us to Mesa Oh, you remembered that huh?
01:41:22
I still have it right there. There you go. You type that up cut it out with a cutter and Back in the day, there you go.
01:41:32
There you go Yeah, let me see if there's anything more here Yeah, I do
01:41:39
I did discuss this further When and I really went into depth in letters for a moment elder because I wanted to be absolutely fair To all the excuses that were offered
01:41:55
So Some people would say that well, he was only commanded to be prepared to go on a mission That the spring mission itself was not specifically prophesied and Yet the same type of language is used for Brigham Young Verily, let's say it the
01:42:12
Lord. This is section This is in documentary church volume 3 page 23
01:42:19
Verily I say it the Lord let my servant Brigham Young go unto the place which he has bought on Mill Creek and there provide for his family until the effectual door
01:42:26
Is open for the support of his family until I shall commend him to go hence and not leave his family until they are provided for amen same type of Language being used by Smith now,
01:42:37
Brigham Young doesn't die. And so he does all these things But this is what Joseph Smith is doing and it couldn't have been a spiritual mission
01:42:45
It says to bear glad tidings unto all the world and the other 11 men didn't die to go with him So the idea that well his mission was in heaven
01:42:55
Doesn't fit the context either these were words written by a
01:43:02
Man claiming to be speaking for the Lord when in reality He didn't know what the future was
01:43:09
He didn't know what the future was section 114 doctrine covenants You can look it up in letters to a
01:43:19
Mormon elder Which is available in hardcopy It's also available on the web.
01:43:24
We've had to link up forever It's novus2 .com slash alphamin slash letters slash main page dot htm if you want to look it up Or you can just I just googled it and it it did come up and you can you can read it there.
01:43:37
So DNC 114 there's all sorts of other really interesting things
01:43:44
That We could look at Unfortunately, I took the other stuff into the other room where I would actually go ahead and take the time right now to look
01:43:52
At it. We'll do that later on Since we do plan on bringing you a number of dividing lines this week, so we've gone for An hour and 45 minutes those of you who are truckers working hard to continue to supply
01:44:11
Some reason no one wants to get to my target Provide toilet paper yet But I know you're all working out there hard.
01:44:22
We've now given you an hour and 45 minutes today to To go there with with a little bit of story time with with uncle
01:44:32
Jimmy we We may be doing a little bit more of that in the future as as well.