Cultish: Out of the Cults & Into the Church, Pt. 1

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Welcome back ladies and gentlemen to Cultish. My name is Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co -hosts here. For me it is early.

It's earlier than I normally record. It's a little after 9 a .m., but I'm very excited for this episode.

We have a returning guest, Naomi Wright. How are you doing? I'm great and I'm in central time usually, so this is 11 a .m.

I'm good. I'm good to go. I'm still like, I need some more coffee. I've got some yerba mate. I need all the waking up to do.

I'm a year older, so maybe that's like weighing on me, all that sort of stuff. We are also joined by my favorite, trusted co -host, private investigator and somewhat of a,

I call it the cyborg super sleuth because you're a bit of a cyborg now because now, what's the

AI program that you have? Oh yeah, chat GPT. Chat GPT, but what's the other AI art that you subscribe to?

Oh, mid -journey. Mid -journey. Mid -journey. Super fun. Yeah, so he's been toying around with chat GPT, so he's been able to do research where all of a sudden he'll use

AI to research on any cult that we're investigating, so he already is a super sleuth, but now he's utilized.

He's incorporating himself with AI, and so now it's like, yeah, you're a bit of a, you're sort of like a cyborg, like T -800, cue the

Terminator music, but it's always, cult is going to a next level. So we are -

Let's go, bro. I'm ready for it. I know. We're kind of like cyborgs right now. We've got technology here, we're talking, our voices are going to be heard by thousands of people.

So anyways, all that being said, a little tired moment just to get ourselves together, but I'm really excited to talk to you because last time we chatted with you, give everyone just a quick recap of your story, because it's been a year.

This might be the first time I've ever heard with you, just to give a quick cliff notes of kind of like your story, your testimony, that's very part and parcel of what we're going to talk about today.

Yeah. So I had a decent variety of experiences, but the predominant one would be growing up in a, what

I would call a pseudo -Christian cult. And I call it that because I was raised believing I was Christian, the Bible was involved, but come to find out that was not true.

So it was a polygamous group where I was in mainstream society in one way, because I went to public school, but in the other way,

I had this very duplicitous life where I was hiding so much within the home, trying to, you know, keep a lot of secrets and things like that.

So in some ways I started coming out of that as a teenager. I mean, what maybe would have definitely in my group been considered rebellious, like bought a pair of pants and changed in the school bathroom at 14, you know, my hair slowly like creeped up my back starting in my teens and so things like that.

But really, you know, stopped attending the church services and all of those specifics probably by the age of like 20 -ish, but was still very much mentally, you know, trapped there, like didn't really couldn't really get out from under the fear and wanting my dad's approval because he was the leader of this group.

And then he died when I was 21 that, of course, pulled on some worldview threads. My mom then died when

I was 25. That really just about did me in because I just adored her so much and still love her.

And from there in my journey to find the truth of who God really is,

I went kind of in a new age direction for a little bit, was like doing some Reiki and like animal cards and some tarot cards and things like that.

But really trying to connect with my dead father, not really so much God. And then as I really headed into mainstream, really, you know, a denominational

Christian church, I still was carrying a lot of that theology and I didn't know how to reconcile it all. And through that,

I just didn't find good discipleship. And so that, you know, that kind of led to some just church hurt. So I kind of went from this, this cult abuse to this sort of church hurt.

So I've kind of, you know, plus, I just sort of had this big mix of it all. And thank God, literally, I then landed in seminary and really was able to theologically get my feet under me and learn how to actually read the

Bible and how to think well and who God really is and all of our evidence and our apologetics and our all of this good stuff.

And that really, you know, firmly then rooted me intellectually in the faith. Yeah, definitely.

And if any of you are listening and want to know the intricacies of that whole story, look up our episode thing. It's called

Growing Up in a Polygamous Cult. Very self -explanatory. But yeah, like Andrew, you remember, you remember we had the conversation with her back then, like, remember, what was the biggest takeaway?

I mean, just thinking back, I think it was a year ago when we did that episode. Like what do you, what was your biggest takeaway when we initially talked with Naomi?

Yeah, I think it was that duplicitous life and almost like having to go through a cognitive dissonance in a sense of reality constantly every day.

And I remember one of the biggest takeaways is when you were talking about when your father died and you guys can almost believe it, that he would return one day, you know, like specifically your father.

And that was very powerful because you have to sort through all of this once you leave that cult.

And my question for you would be like, what, what was the most impactful thing for you when leaving the cult that really helped you take this baggage that you grew up with and put it aside to rearrange your thinking and think correctly?

What helped you the most? Oh, that's an interesting question, Andrew, because my first, my first place that I go is the presence of the

Holy Spirit where I, I knew that God was different because I was,

I was feeling his presence and it felt different. So that was the first that kind of opened me up,

I would say, maybe to that intellectual journey was I felt so loved and cared for, even though I was sinning right and left in my just trauma response and brokenness and pain and complex grief.

I mean, complicated grief, like nobody knows what to do with, you know, that kind of situation. So yeah, so I would say that was really like,

God was so gracious and so kind to show up in my life and allow me to know, like,

I love you. And again, I felt that. So but then the intellectual part, it's so funny because most people, they go to some, you know, when they go to seminary, they take that first, like, for me, it was

GS 500, it's this intro, like thinking biblically and theologically. And they're in it.

And it's just like, oh, my gosh, we have to do this. And it changed my life. So I was like, this is incredible, like, this is how you actually read this amazing ancient book that is still relevant every single day like this is.

And so that was groundbreaking for me right there. And then I had a professor who just recognized there was something different about me.

There was some stuff I didn't know that most people would have known. And he just kind of took me under his wing, Douglas Groteis, love to give him a shout out in case he listens, but he's incredible.

And that was really huge, too, because I had someone who bothered to know and became safe for me to allow into that.

And then he came alongside myself and my husband. And that really was a game changer. Yeah. Praise God.

Oh, that's awesome. And then what was this? So you're in seminary and you're in, again, people can, you can check out the previous podcast if anyone's interested in checking it out.

But so you're in seminary, you're doing all this learning. And so you're not only you're learning, but you're also unlearning at the same time.

Like a lot of those two things are part and parcel with each other. Talk, explain like what that process was like, maybe further, like as you're learning and unlearning, maybe there's some like duality between there.

But eventually that became the catalyst for your current ministry being

Bolden Ministries, which we're going to really talk about what you do currently. But yeah, talk about that.

Like the learning and unlearning, but and how did that become, how did that turn into being Bolden, which we're going to talk about?

Yeah. So starting with the learning and unlearning, it was heartbreaking, you guys.

It was heartbreaking. And I think that's where it's, it's not as simple as just giving the correct answer.

Right. And we know this is, you know, people who care about apologetics, there's so much about approach. And when someone has experienced, you know, from from church hurt, if hurt is a better word than abuse or, you know, wherever, wherever they land, whatever that's looked like for them.

Man, when we look at those theological differences, there's fallout from that. So every ideal that I held that I then found was wrong, had an emotional connection.

It meant something. It meant I had told somebody else something that was untrue. It meant that, you know, my parents maybe could have still been alive because medical care was fine.

You know, to use a more dramatic example. I mean, it was attached to stuff to find out that, you know, polygamy is not actually endorsed in Scripture.

It's like, well, you know, there's things that then made more sense because I'm like, well, that was a horrific experience. So it makes sense that that's not actually as it should be, because it certainly was not a blessed experience.

But there's this emotional fallout that comes along with it. And so I had to really be willing to, to take that on.

I had to be willing to grieve and to feel that pain so that then I could move forward. But it's, yeah, you got to really get rid of the cognitive dissonance and be like, you know what,

I want what's true and I'm going to value that the most. And I'm not going to have this confirmation bias where I'm going to weigh what

I like heavier. I'm not going to try to seek what I want to find. And so I'm going to really do my best to be as neutral as I can.

And then I'm going to deal with the ramifications of that. And if that means I've got to say X, Y and Z about my family and about myself previously and all these things and like, so be it.

But it's hard. It's painful. Yeah. And I think a lot of times too, and Andrew, you can give your thoughts as well too and maybe you as well too, is

I think in that process, a lot of times there's some sort of this like cognitive dissonance and sometimes you can kind of, there's, there's sort of a, people want to keep themselves busy.

So you don't actually have to like, cause the moment you stop, slow down or quiet and you like start reflecting on like, okay, this actually, this happened to me and this is actually not okay.

And just understand, you know, you sort of, you do have to sort of go through the grieving process. But a lot of times there's a sort of like fight or flight where even sometimes, you know, you think about sometimes a route of like, you know,

I'm a, I'm a recovering procrastinator in like isolated areas, but a lot of like, honestly, from even a psychological standpoint, a lot of times procrastination, you sometimes you have a sort of this perceived pain of if you, if I do this one thing,

I'm going to, I am perceiving that I'm going to experience this pain. So in order to control that outcome,

I avoid, I chronically avoid doing this particular thing. And so I've noticed that a lot, but do you think like with,

I think that's just something maybe you or just ex -cultists sometimes deal with in general, I mean, sort of having that, that perceived pain of like dealing with their past and then they kind of keep themselves busy doing whatever in order to like not deal with that.

Does that make sense? Yeah. It's, I think there's probably a few different things at play. Of course it can vary a bit by person for like what's more heavily, but I think when we're talking about ex -cultists specifically, and I don't know, it doesn't necessarily have to be inclusive to, to cults.

I mean, if there's been, you know, mainstream religious abuse too, I think this would apply. Yeah. That people, they've had so much fear.

And so I think they can still be really scared. And I see that a lot with, with being involved in clients where like, let's say, you know, we just passed

Easter, we just passed a holiday. I know you guys did a great episode, you know, with Michael Jones about it or a couple episodes and, you know, people who are, they're out of groups where say they weren't supposed to practice any of those holidays and they don't believe in that anymore, but they're still so afraid to.

So it's like that fear is still embedded in them. And that's a typical trauma response too, is like fear gets embedded in your nervous system and it just kind of replays itself in maladaptive times.

And so there's this, this real like physiological healing that even has to happen for somebody to be, to be able to, to move forward.

Do you think also with ex -cultists, there is kind of like a

Stockholm syndrome where there's sort of, you know, they've experienced this sort of this trauma and spiritual abuse, but sometimes they either, they feel inclined or obligated to go back to either to that specific cult or go realign themselves with that sort of thinking, even while being out of the cult, because there are a lot of times people will be out of the organization, but they still feel like they have to think that specific way.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So we probably have,

I would say people are most likely to go to one extreme or the other. They're either going to walk into something else that's really familiar because it doesn't feel like too far of a leap from what they were involved in before.

So it's like, okay, well, this isn't maybe it's, that was wrong, but this at least feels familiar at similar enough, like maybe similar rules and things like that, but okay, it's not that.

So maybe this is okay. Oftentimes that ends up actually being another problem or they'll swing all the way to the other side.

And that's actually why at BN Bolden, we do not, we don't push people to jump into a church community immediately.

Now we are very pro church and we love the church. We want to see people be able to healthfully attend church, but we also want them to have their feet under them to know how to choose one, like how to know they're not walking in from one pit, they're heading into another one.

Because as an example, me coming from something that, you know, was, was a cult that also had those like fundamentalist kind of, you know, uh, flavors to it,

I, I added more towards NAR, more towards a new apostolic reparation because that was so extremely different.

And so I'm like, well, that's not, that's not what we want to do either. So it's like, until people have some sense of what on earth was wrong and what's right, like they're just really at an increased risk for re -victimization.

So it's something we really care about is like, let's try to get your feet under you so that you're able to find a healthy church, a theologically sound church and, and get plugged in.

How do you even do that? And so we equip people to do that. No, exactly. And I think the one thing I've noticed is that every single time

I've been in a conversation with someone, like I said, whether it's just a example, someone with an evangelicalism who's been sort of in a spiritually abusive environment where there's even, you know, even solid theology, but you know, there's just bad leadership and there's multiple reasons for that.

Or if you look at an extreme example, kind of like, you know, growing up in a polygamous cult like you did, when you just go right away into a church, a lot of times there's all this anxiety, all these like trigger points, because you're going into this environment.

It's the same way too. You think of like a vet, you know, someone who's an army vet. If you think about the movie,

American Sniper, about Chris Kyle, like he's in, he's at the child's birthday party, but he sees like little things that like set off his

PTSD and you just, that's what people deal with a lot of times. So I think that's something that you, you really have to understand and be patient.

Like with ex -cultists, Andrew, you know, with you being up in Utah, like you've experienced people who've, you know, either whether it's

Mormonism or if you minister to someone who's FLDS or say a polygamous family, there's like a lot of unthinking they have to do.

And they probably have walked into, you know, your church with a, you know, you and Wade and everyone else with like, oh, this is a little too overwhelming.

How have you like, what, how have you like help people like in that process? Or what about Naomi or that's what she's saying that's resonating with you right now?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to, I have a question for her too, but I think part of it has to do with trust, right? Someone coming from a false assembly, trying to get back into the church.

It's hard for them to trust relationships. It's hard for them to number one, trust the word of God. It's hard for them to trust their relationships, even around them.

They're interpreting relationships and actions between two sinful parties in a way to where almost intentions can sometimes just be given to the other person because of what they've been through in the past.

So working through that's very important. I like what you said, Naomi too, essentially about trying to help someone get their bearings first.

Because I think about the church as a pool of living water, right? But it seems like what the cult does is this person isn't swimming in the living water.

The cult has given someone a floaty and the floaties like around their neck, you know, so they're floating above the pool of living water.

But what people need help with doing is they need to help how to navigate and swim through that sometimes before they just jump right in, especially when they're coming from a false assembly.

So my question for you, Naomi would be, how do you start with the basic, right? For me, at least in my experience, it seems like the most basic issue that has to be dealt with and solved by the grace of God is trust.

Trust in the church or trust in the word of God. How do you guys do that at BN Bolden? Yeah, a hundred percent.

And so, Andrew, I would step us back as one to two steps further. So when

I talk to people about trusting again, it's actually one of the topics we have in a curriculum that we offer.

It's week number five is trusting again. And if we back it up, what's even deeper than trusting these other people is trusting their own ability to discern the character of that person.

And so it's really a lack of trust in self. And then that can back up to, can I trust God to tell me?

Because where was God then? Who is he? Is he actually good? Is he going to warn me? Am I going to be able to discern?

Is the Holy Spirit going to alert me? And so we back up to, okay, trusting again with our, you know, how do we begin to actually trust ourselves and build that trust?

But not self as in my goal is to trust me and I want to trust the Lord. So then we have to back up into, okay, who is

God? And then we land in the problem of evil. So it becomes like this whole kind of step -by -step process we have to go through.

And it absolutely can be done. I see it done. It's incredible to be a part of it, but also to witness how

God shows up. And it's just absolutely amazing. But it's going to take more time than people who are unfamiliar with this area may be comfortable with because it can look scary, right?

Like, it's like, gosh, like these people don't want to be in church or they're like showing up and then not showing up. They're showing up, but they're not engaging or like, and it's, you know,

God really does have it. And if we get to just be patient, persevere alongside them, it's incredible what's going to happen.

Yeah. So a question is that, so initially you're in seminary, you're doing all this learning and you're always answering the very inquisitive questions.

And so you have, what was the guy's name? He said, took you under his wing a little bit. Dr. Doug Groteis. Yeah. So you're in the process where it's learning, but at some point, you know, did you ever go in thinking you're going to do this be in bold ministries right away?

Or just like, I just want to learn. That's so funny. So there was a little bit of a mix.

I was getting a master's in divinity at first, and I had no idea what it was or what it was for. I didn't even know what seminary was until three months before I started.

I had no idea what it was. So I get into seminary. I start going, I'm like, oh,

I'm going to get the MDiv because it's three years long and I got a lot to learn. So I'm gonna take the longest program that they have. And then

I find out like, oh, this is to be a pastor. I'm like, well, I don't even know what I think about that. I grew up in a patriarchal society.

So first of all, like, is that even right? And second of all, I don't want to do that. So what am I doing? So that was kind of the initial process.

But then I do remember, I remember telling Doug, you know, I think I want to do something in this realm overall.

And he had mentioned to me like encouraging, but also just kind of, hey, you know, just be aware it's a messy area to get involved in.

You know, there's just, it's tough to know even like where to get help and things like that.

And so that sort of stuck in the back of my head of like, well, I don't want that to be so hard. You know, I want, I couldn't find help either.

I want people to be able to find help. And again, across the spectrum, not just people who have, you know, a more extreme quote unquote story is mine, but hurt hurts.

So, you know, wherever they land. And I had no idea that I would do, be emboldened though.

I mean, it didn't really, I then, I had gotten in a car accident. I had a brain injury. I had in, so I was a hospice social worker.

I have a master's in social work. I'm a licensed mental health professional in the state of Colorado. And I was doing hospice social work and going to seminary.

So doing each part time. And I didn't know seminary to me was something just to really root me.

I'm like, this is, I just need this. I learned well this way. This is going to work out well for me. And then

I ended up getting this car accident. I had to step out of hospice because I wasn't able to emotionally regulate with the brain injury.

So it took, it took time to heal from all that, which I have thankfully. But during that,

I started this just like little side hustle, you know, trying to help my family out and do whatever I could and started working for this event company.

I ended up being the first person hired for this woman's company and ended up growing it to over the next four years, it's multimillion dollar internationally recognized company.

And then COVID hit. And I had, you guys literally in January of 2020,

I had just come home and told Michael, my husband, like, I think this is just going to be my career because I was leading a team of like 40 people.

I loved, I loved curating a team. I loved growing a team, pouring into them. It was amazing. And I'm like, okay,

I get to use a lot of my different skills. Like, I think this is just going to be it. And then two months later, the whole company shuts down and she never reopened it again.

You know, it was time for her to move on in her life. God moved in her life too. And then it was like, I think I'm just in 2020.

Yeah. And then it was like, I feel like I'm supposed to share my story. And I think I told you guys that last time where I just felt like God was saying to me, like, tell them what

I've done for you. And that's where it then grew from. That was a starting point. Yeah. And then, um, so talk, talk maybe just about some examples of, cause we're going to talk about some of the courses and curriculum that you've done, but like, what were some of the first, uh, clients that you kind of like ran into?

Like, what were they dealing with? And like, how did that, cause I mean, I think, and I think sometimes even for me is that, you know, you, whether it's an interview or you're talking with a

Jehovah's witness on the street, I feel like I always walk away, like just learning something new with maybe some, uh, some like further perspective, you know, on like that particular person about how to minister to the cults or whatever.

But like, um, like in your case with this first couple of people you interacted with being emboldened, like what were some of your big takeaways?

Gosh, people needed to know that they, they were not alone in it. That they were not crazy.

And I always, you know, kind of give an asterisk, like, I don't mean that in some mental health derogatory way. I mean, like when people come out of in manipulative environments, they walk away and they feel like they're nuts.

Like, that's what I hear from people every week is am I crazy, you know, cause this just seems so surreal.

And that was really significant to be able to come alongside people and just reassure them that no, this does happen.

And it's not that there's something wrong with you specifically and that it happened to you. Now there is strengthening that can be done to help prevent it from happening again, hopefully, but very intelligent people wind up in cults.

They're not just born into it. So also just learning more about how that comes to be so that we're more equipped to not allow it to happen.

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What questions do you have right now? Yeah, I'm wondering like the scripture say in second Peter chapter one that we've inherited every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ and further in the chapter, it talks about how we must therefore then be diligent in studying, you know, growing in our knowledge of grace in our

Lord Jesus Christ. How do you navigate that with somebody in being bold and someone who was once hurt before to try to bring back a more disciplined regimen to the word of God?

How does that work? So patiently again, right? Because we don't, we don't want people to shut down, but first I'll start here because it's really important.

I think that people know the worldview from which being bold and is coming from. I think that transparency is so important.

So we're very upfront. We are, however you want to say it, Orthodox Christian, biblical Christian, we adhere to, you know, biblical inerrancy.

So we're very upfront about these beliefs that we hold now. So people know that when they come to talk with us, they also know that they don't have to be in that place.

And while yes, of course, I hope that they will be, I also respect that that is ultimately a choice that they are going to make.

But anything that I share with someone is coming from that lens that I have on. And I'm not, it's not one

I'm attempting to take off. I actually did a lot to get it on. So I'm keeping it at this point. I'm sold out on evidence, you know, weighs heavily.

So we're good here. But yeah. So when I'm walking alongside people, and this would be for the other mentors on our team as well, we will ask someone if they're cool with us using scripture to show them that what they think was in there, what they were told was in the

Bible actually is not because usually it's not. And so that's really helpful. If someone is opening the

Bible themselves or not, I've never had someone say no, because even I even have atheist clients right now.

And they're like, no, it's helpful to know that like, it's not the book's fault. Like it's that guy's fault or that woman's fault.

So we start there. It's like, okay, let's, let's look at what you've been told and the issues with it in comparison to scripture so that you at least know where to really place the accountability, you know, slash the blame.

And then from there, people become more open of like, okay, well, maybe the Bible is,

I want to say safe, but you know, the Bible's not really safe either. You know, it can, you know, do some things, but in people's lives in a good way, you know, for the betterment, but it can still be hard.

But yeah, that's sort of the start of it is starting to correct. Hey, can I just share with you? And again, we've never had somebody, someone decline that.

Yeah. Well, you, it's interesting too. It's like authoritarian groups or authoritarian leaders.

They don't ask for consent. They don't ask for permission. And so just the fact that you're doing that, you know,

I think it is very helpful in creating a very like relaxed relatability. But also

I want to jump back again too, because I think most people who come out of a background, whether it's a very extreme, again, a destructive cult, or if it's just a place where there's, you know, an abusive sort of narcissist like leader and a person who's sort of having this cognitive dissonance, starting to question the motives or whatever, that's usually it's, it's done in isolation.

It's done in isolation, totally, you know, trying to struggle through this. And I think, and this is something

I've been trying to navigate through because, you know, you're going to be the upcoming conference, which we advertise for the very beginning of this episode, which will be taking place in July.

Um, you know, I'm thinking I'm going to be one of the speakers at the, uh, at the event that, uh,

Jennifer Ruhr is hosting, but, um, you know, however many people are there sitting in front of me, each one has been through a story, probably in isolation from each other.

And now they're here like in this community. And so I think that is something to really, it's important to understand that most people have done this in isolation.

So even if you're listening to this and maybe you, maybe some of what you're talking about is resonating with you.

It's like, this is the normative experience. And it's very easy to think that, man, I feel like I'm going crazy.

Everyone is normal, except for me. And I'm the one who's crazy because I'm just beginning to question how this person is utilizing the word of God or whether or not there's some questionable ethics behind what this leader is saying.

Like I have to do that process can be very, very terrifying and very traumatizing, but it's good to let people know, like, no, this is on some level, this is the normative experience in a very abnormal, you know, spiritually abusive environment.

What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. And it can also be really deeply discouraging because you're like, all these people show up to church, like it's so easy.

It's like, I mean, I couldn't walk into a church without dissociating and like dangerously so.

So, Andrew, I think you had mentioned earlier, you know, it can really be dangerous for people to push themselves past a certain point because if someone's dissociating and they continue to do so, and this is sort of their norm, like they're pushing to go to church on Sunday and on Wednesday.

And so they're pretty much primarily living in a dissociative state that can lead to like serious mental health issues. Like someone could split into multiple personalities, like there's very real mental health stuff that can happen.

So it actually is dangerous to push someone to that point for them to be living there.

So we also at Being Boldened, we teach people how to back away from that ledge. Like, just like with anger or any kind of strong emotion, there's this little split second window, like before someone's going to go from zero to 10.

And so it's like, how do we start to catch that? Like what's happening in our body? How do we start to recognize it's happening? What tools do we then have available to us to back ourselves away from that cliff so that we can think?

Because we don't want our brain to shut off. And that's what happens is our prefrontal cortex shuts off. We don't want that to happen. We want to be able to critically think, make decisions.

So we do that, you know, kind of that science side of things too, to help people be able to function in a way that they want to.

I mean, everyone I've talked with at Being Boldened, I mean, last year, we were just really getting mentoring going towards the beginning of the year and still just one -on -one sessions with people, not including, you know, group things or like anything like that.

I myself had over 700 direct contact hours with different people last year. And again, we weren't even like, it'll be way more than that this year.

And so I'm like, gosh, when you think about that, I haven't had, you know, a single person who's saying,

I never want to be able to healthily be a part of a sense of community. They all want it.

Yeah. Andrew, what's in your mind? Yeah, I mean, that's good. I think of the people as the sheep of God, right?

And it's like, there's those sheep that were out being terrorized by wolves, right? They're being snapped at, bitten at, they're hurt and they're going back into a fold.

But when they're getting back into the fold, like you said, there's like that disassociation or disillusionment where they might bite other sheep or they might get scared or try to run off and they smack a fence or something like that.

So it seems like there's this healing process first that you're referring to. Like they're going to the vet, essentially, and they're getting healed before being placed back in there prior, you know, to any other things that could happen that could be worse, you know, and that's good.

And I think that the church and pastors should be doing that as well. Absolutely. But it's good that the

Lord has multiple forms and avenues to get his sheep healed again. Like Jesus says, he is the good shepherd and he's raising people up like yourself to help people get back into the fold while taking the spiritual health, mental health of his sheep at the forefront of their minds.

And I think that's great. So I like that a lot. Yeah, no, I appreciate that, Andrew. So question you're talking about too, about helping people, you know, with their experience and you said you have a, what sort of degree do you have in social work?

I have a master's in social work. So I'm a licensed, basically a licensed therapist in the state of Colorado. Yeah. And so this is very interesting.

This is a good, maybe something to maybe unravel and talk about for a second, what you're dealing with is one, like a disentanglement that you're trying to help through people, like theologically from an intellectual standpoint.

So that includes a proper exegesis of scripture, because usually it's a manipulation of scripture where a lot of the spiritual abuse comes from.

But there's also like a mental health aspect of it too, helping people, you know, disentangle from the trauma to help.

How do they deal with trauma responses? And a lot of times I think in the world of biblical counseling, there seems to be sort of this dualism where, okay, well, we need to just read

Romans 8 28 and, and have like, take two pills and feel better in the morning. Or I can just memorize the verses, then you'll be better.

Or, but then other people say, no, no, no, you just, you need to just spend all your time like with, you know, with going to therapy and going through all this stuff, you can kind of get back with that later.

And I think sometimes there's an extreme, like one way or the other, you know what I mean? Like, how do you, cause you do both, like, how do you, like, how do you navigate that?

Because I think in that whole world, sometimes I, I see in the count, this sort of is that counseling, like one way or the other, like, how do you navigate that?

Yeah. So fortunately I'm also graduating from seminary this summer, right? So it's not just one or the other. So it's like both need to come together.

I agree a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm trying to think of really like where to, to start and how to do that.

So it depends on what's going on with the person. So, I mean, I can generalize things and like, that's what we do, of course, when we write curriculum is, okay, what are these top seven issues that people are running into?

What are the top seven questions people are having or the top nine or the top? We're about to drop a two part series. It's just going to be two weeks, an hour and a half, two evenings, you know, two weeks in a row about exegetics, exegetical work and hermeneutics.

So like, okay, let's get people's feet under them knowing. And yeah, people could find that anywhere.

Like people can Google that. They could follow anyone. There's great names they could follow. But the difference is the uniqueness in what we're doing is it's for people who have been really deeply wounded and who are really fearful, maybe angry, maybe just really confused.

So we're so far from a blank slate. And so we're taking it from that context. Like I know when I talk about how to read scripture,

I'm talking to people who are hearing their abusive pastor in their head when they read that passage.

So I'm going to do that in a different way because of that information. So we want to.

And I think that's maybe an example of how we do it is there's that that knowledge of what's going on with someone again, physiologically, because of what happens when someone has legitimately experienced trauma, what happens in their body.

So there's knowledge of that, how to come alongside someone with those triggers and those, you know, threat reflex responses that their body is going to have, as well as we want to share information, though we want people to be able to move forward.

But everything we're sharing, again, like as an example, one of the topics we talk about that the main title is authentic self.

OK, now that's going to get some hate. Right. And fairly, it would fairly get some hate, especially in like the apologetics arena.

Like I would get that. Now, the subtitle is finding your design. OK, so like now we have our scriptural part.

It's like if we're talking to people who have been told all of these horrific things about themselves, and I'm not talking original sin like I agree with that.

I'm talking like, you know, stuff that cultists are telling people and they don't even know how they like their eggs.

I mean, they don't know how much sleep they need. They don't know, you know what you talk about women.

They like don't know if they like their hair long or short because they never had an option. So there's just all kinds of different things that can come out where it's like,

OK, let's start to figure out your identity in Christ, as well as your unique design as a unique child of God.

And so what does that look like? And so we're we're grounding all of it back in biblical truth, even though it may not always appear exactly that way and not we're not being upfront.

But like, for example, we've gotten some pushback from other Christians where it can appear like, oh, well, you talk about authentic self or something like that's like, yeah, but we're not doing it in that way.

And so, again, language can get tricky because everything we're doing, we're like we are rooting it in in the

Bible. Well, yeah, no, one hundred percent. But I think what I appreciate is that I think I might like a right away when you said that, like,

I think I know where you're going with this. But yeah, because you think about like Steve Hassan, who wrote

Compounding Cult Mind Control, and he's not a Christian, you know, he's an image bearer of God. So I think even his bite model can only be you can only make a true accounting of it within a biblical worldview.

But in it, he does talk about how a destructive cult like he grew up in the Moonies. He was given a unique cult identity in place of his authentic self.

And so when you are in a destructive group like you have that group identity and you don't even know after you leave it like you don't really even know who you are.

So a lot of people who kind of get spit out of an abusive system trying to put together the pieces, they're trying to figure out who they are, like, who am

I authentically? So I think knowing this is always too about scaling the language barrier.

Someone from the outside looking in could be like, wait a second, that's, you know, you're not using, you know, reformed, you know, you know, language like depraved, wretched, sinners saved by grace.

But you're using language as a catalyst to get people, you know, there and help them understand disentangle.

And I really appreciate that. Yeah. How do you help the person who is reading scripture and they're hearing their, you know, pastor or cult leader or whatever, how do you help them get out of that?

How do you actually help them find out what they like to do? Oh, so, so not like you don't mean like when they go to the scriptures and they're hearing their pastor, do you mean like if they're going about their day and they're like, oh,

I shouldn't. Yeah. Even both of them. Yeah. So, well, when it comes to scripture, really breaking it down,

I mean, it's again, it's a slow process, but it's, it's incredible because all of a sudden someone just, you know, hits a tipping point.

And it's like, oh, okay. Like I'm, I'm kind of generally over that, you know, it doesn't mean nothing ever pops back up, but so it can seem like, gosh, we're going so slow.

Like you think about that word disentanglement. When I think about disentanglement and why I love the word so much is the visual

I get is like thread where it's like, it is so knotted up.

It is a heck of a lot easier y 'all to just snip that off than it is to like get a needle and start picking at that tiny little knot and trying to undo it.

I mean, this is not, this is a difficult, difficult process to go through. It is very tedious.

And so taking it slow, but those skills are still being taught, you know, and, and it takes that repetition and not in like this indoctrination, but in this repetition of reminding ourselves, okay, like I'm, I'm safe to read this book.

This is safe for me to do. Like nobody's here harming me and I can ask questions.

That's huge. And I know like you guys are all about that. So yeah, like it's ask the questions.

Like nobody was told they could do that, you know, whether it's church or it's church abuse or, you know, cult abuse.

Like nobody's being told, yeah, bring us your questions. We want to answer them. You know, they're, they're getting shut down.

They're getting mistreated because of it or worse. So that's all, you know, that trust process too, but it just takes that time for people to read and listen and hear, and then be able to say, okay,

I, gosh, I just can knock it out of my head that this is what that scripture means. Like, okay, well, let's go back through.

I have a woman who's really struggling with wearing pants and she wants to like to her. It's just, it's a sign of the freedom that she has, you know, coming out of her group.

And so for her, it's, it's a real significant thing for her to be able to do that. And she's like, every time I put them on, like,

I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm going to go to hell. Like, well, let's go back to the scriptures again. You know, let's see what it says.

Like, let's go back in there. Let's get out some commentaries. Let's look at the original Hebrew or Greek. Let's do some deep diving together.

Let's explore this more. So really let's build it up based on what's true. So you've got evidence.

You can stand on that evidence for the life that you're going to be living. And if you don't have the evidence for it, we got a problem.

Either you just don't know it or there isn't evidence. So like, let's assess that. Right. So let's just take that example.

Like, I think we've had this one picture. We posted a couple of times where it says, like, no pants in the sanctuary for women or something like that.

It's a total, like, fundamental, like, independent fundamentalist Baptist, like, extreme church where they're saying that.

But like someone in that situation, like whoever this person you're talking with, like, I would imagine perhaps they're like, in their mind, it isn't just like, okay, well,

I just, can I wear pants or not wear a skirt? If they're contemplating wearing pants, like in their mind's eye, maybe they're imagining themselves, like walking into that fundamentalist church with pants on and having those, and like, in their minds, either seeing stairs happening, maybe a couple of the men, like, kind of gather in the corner.

And you know that, you know, that they're talking about you and kind of pointing over you like, hey, we're getting ready to escort you out and kind of playing this whole scenario, even though you're out of that group.

I mean, is that kind of something you think that they might be dealing with in the conflict of whether or not you wear pants over a skirt?

Yeah. Great insight. So absolutely not. Well, not necessarily specifically walking into the church, but running into someone at the grocery store.

That's terrifying. Terrifying. You can set people back for days because they run into someone at the grocery store and they're like, oh my goodness,

I was seen in pants. And then you know that gossip is going to happen because these groups are real good at gossip.

So like, you know, it's going to make the circuit and it's just, and so identity in Christ, right?

It's like we have got to know where our identity is really rooted. I mean, it is so important.

And again, we can't always start there, but it's so important to land there. Sorry for interrupting your currently scheduled programming.

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And even less, even like a more extreme example, and Andrew, let's just jump in here is that you think about like Warren Jeffs.

And you know, it was a couple of years ago that Andrew and I, we had the privilege of talking with Brielle Decker, who is one of Warren Jeff's polygamous wives and someone who grew up in an environment like that.

I mean, there's a Netflix documentary, Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey. And anybody who knows the story of Warren Jeffs, when you hear his voice, it's like you just, it makes your stomach turn.

But when you think about someone like her, even I remember talking with her, she had such this like childlike faith.

But I think that was a byproduct of her really having to disentangle. You think about someone, her whole idea from a very young age, her perception of God, prophets, revelation was all in this guy claiming that he was

God's prophet. Any aspect of the scriptures is always through his specific lens.

And not only that, this is God's prophet who is grooming her from a very young age to be one of his polygamous wives and then having to escape from that.

I mean, there's a lot of disentanglement where it's like, okay, now, great. You're a new creation.

Everything's wonderful. Now, now you can just go about your day. No, there's a lot of thinking about that. I mean, I can imagine there probably would be like struggle with her.

I haven't talked to her about this, but someone coming from that environment, there might just be an issue where you're just, you're having a quiet time in the morning.

You want to read like Proverbs or the Psalms, but all of a sudden you don't want to because you're reading the

Psalms. I'm just imagining this. All of a sudden you start reading it in Warren Jeff's voice that triggers some trauma in you and all of a sudden like, oh,

I can't do this right now. I want to keep myself busy. Does that make sense? Like this is an example of what someone might be dealing with.

Absolutely. Yeah. Oh gosh. And oh, dreams, you guys, that's a thing. I mean,

I just had one recently where my dad was lunging for me to choke me. I mean, you guys like this stuff just happens.

So, and yeah, we could talk about, you know, where that comes from and why that happens, but just in day to day, yeah, different scents can remind people of different people.

Like you smell that same aftershave or something like that, or you hear those lyrics or you hear that verse or just a similar space that you're sitting in and you kind of get this deja vu moment.

And absolutely. So it's really, I think the further removed I get from actually like really being fully immersed in the cult, the more

I see that it's this continued like lifelong journey with the

Lord. I'm like, this is, it's, I mean, you're still going to get sad sometimes. You know, you're going to have people who have grieved and they're like, gosh, like I think

I'm over it. But just like grieving the loss of anything, when you've grieved so many losses at one time, loss of community, maybe job, loss of your worldview, all kinds of things.

And you're grieving that and yeah, like you can really get your feet under you again. There's so much that can be done just within those first few years.

But anyone who's two, three years out and they think like, oh, they're talking like they're over it. They're just not.

And so I just, I just have an awareness of that, of doors always open. You know, you can pop back in, we can always reconnect because it's, and again,

I've seen it myself. It's like, yeah, some, some days are just hard. Some days you're just sad or you remember things or, or yeah, you, you remember something that you were told before.

And, but what's really incredible, you guys, is we build up again, sort of this evidence for ourselves of, yeah, but I'm, I'm okay.

And I can go through that and I'm not in it alone. And so we don't, we don't fight it so much.

Like you talked about that cognitive dissonance in the beginning. It's like, there's less fight. There's quicker acceptance of, okay, this is,

I've been through this before. This is what happens. And, and I can like allow that and, and lean on my supports and, and I'm going to,

I'm going to come through it the other side. I'm going to, I'm going to continue forward. And so it doesn't take us off our feet. Like it took off, took us off our feet.

Yeah. What, what, what type of, what forms of therapy do you guys use? I apologize for my ignorance. I may sound like a super layman.

I'm trying to remember my days in college and some psychology classes. Like, do you use like cognitive behavioral therapy, like exposure therapy and things like that?

Or is it more new thetic or do you, do you like gestalt therapy? How do you, how do you help people overcome?

Does it just, does it matter according to what specifically they're going through or what are, what are some of the techniques?

Well, it also matters on the law. So it matters because, so myself, I'm licensed in Colorado.

Anna Kitko, who works with Roshio Christie. She's incredible. She's going to be at WEA, you know, in June as one of their plenary speakers.

So she's awesome. She's on our team. She's another mentor, such a blessing. She's licensed in the state of Tennessee.

So what we're able to do with being bold and as anyone who's in our, the state that we're licensed in, we can do something more structured, you know, like that.

But if it's outside of the state, cause we serve internationally, we've got clients all over the world. So it's not even just here in the United States.

So legally we can't do the super clinical stuff. So like we wouldn't be able to diagnose someone with a depression as an example, or not that we care to anyway, you know, at that stage, but we're not, we're not able to do something like an interest

I have personally is neurofeedback. It's a, it's a newer intervention. It's showing really great results for trauma.

It helps with the way your brain waves are firing. And Anna has, you know, something similar that she's just has seen really good success on.

So and I had neurofeedback for my TBI and it was amazing. And so I've seen it work really well for an actual, you know, physical injury.

So whenever we're into stuff like that, we can't do that under being bold. And so if someone's needing someone who can, we will connect them and we'll offer to collaborate with that person because we have such a lack of people who are offering those services across the state, let alone the world who also understand that context of religious abuse.

So we're able to at least collaborate and offer that insight and help them. But a direction we're heading is to be training other support professionals and not just licensed like therapeutic.

Like we really want to be supporting the church. We love the church. We love the local church. And we know that there's just so much to this and pastors, they have a lot on their plates.

You know, leadership has a lot on their plates. And we're like, how can we come alongside the local church and serve anyone who maybe pops up in their congregation who's struggling?

How can we have a relationship to help? How can we maybe help the leadership team to feel more like they've got their feet under them so they feel like more confident in what they're offering?

So that's something that we're wanting to head more into. No, I definitely resonate with that. In fact, when you're talking about how you help others and somehow sometimes there are like limits to like what you can do as far as like, you know, certain decisions that they make as far as like the type of care that they get in the same way.

Like, you know, Andrew, you might resonate with this too, where, you know, say you're counting as a pastor, like you're counseling someone and they're dealing with something, but maybe there's something in like the depression or something that's you it realizes that's clinical, that they might need some help as far as like a doctor goes.

Like you can figure that out, but as a pastor, like it's not you, you're not the one to prescribe that medication, you know?

So I think there is like a healthy balance between, you know, giving that sort of pastoral care and counseling them with the word of God, but also understand that like God gave doctors like Luke who wrote the gospel of Luke and act like he acts, he was a doctor.

So there is a place for that and have a navigate between the two. But yeah, I think, yeah, there's such a need for people who have been in these environments to really, one, walk through this stuff, but also not walk through it alone.

Because in the initial, when you're going through a process with all the people that I've spoken with, the initial process of sort of disentangling or having that, you know, that Morpheus holding up the battery moment from the matrix and having to do that, that's all done in isolation.

And so it's really important not only to help them do that, but also help them do that with community, which is one of the reasons why

I'm really looking forward to the event this upcoming July. You had resonated too, like talk about the importance of community in the process of this.

Yeah. So something that I love, and for anyone who's gone through it, y 'all, you're going to hear my secrets if you're listening to this episode. So here's something that is so cool that I just, it makes me want to do it again and again.

So when we host a support group, and so like, let's say we're going through one of our curriculums and it's like our rebuilding after religious abuse curriculum, and it's a seven week curriculum that we go through.

And, you know, we max out at a pretty low number of people, only like 12 to 15, because we want people to be able to ask questions and connect and things like that.

So if we're hosting that in the beginning, people are, you know, pretty quiet, right?

You know, and that's normal for anything anyway, even people who haven't experienced any form of abuse ever, like that would be kind of normal.

You know, people are a little more quiet in the beginning, but especially with this kind of background, right? So they're more quiet.

And then, you know, weeks two and three, like they'll talk to me as a facilitator. So they'll be asking me questions and they'll be commenting and sharing.

By week seven, they're talking to each other. And it's really amazing to see because that in and of itself gives them an example that, wow,

I can be in a room with other people. I can be vulnerable. I can share and it can be safe.

It can be healthy. I can still have like a boundary if I need to. Like, wow, you know, this is actually possible.

I just lived an example of it. And we talk about that at the end. Because we also talk about like, we don't want to only be, you know, doing that kind of confirmation biased thing where it's like, well,

I'm just going to collect evidence for the narrative I have in my head. Well, no, you just lived something that is contrary to the narrative you have in your head.

Like, let's pay attention to that. And I actually encourage people, you know, oftentimes in one -on -one meetings, I'm like, keep a list, like actually write down when you're like, gosh, that was different.

That person treated me so beautifully when I walked into that church service. This person did that.

And it's like, you know, you'll start to see, oh, it can be genuine. So we want to really pay attention to that stuff.

We want to make note of it. So yeah, just it's really, really incredible. So it can be a starting point just like that of, oh,

I'm showing up to learn this stuff, but I'm doing it with others. And again, in an environment where we've got a code of conduct that we agree to in the beginning and things like that.

So everyone, you know, is on the same page. Yeah. What do you do? Because you talked about, and I do agree and share the sentiments on many levels about sometimes there is a bridging process of someone to get plugged into like a healthy church.

And usually it's like initially going through like a group like yours. Like I remember I was part of a group and this is a ministry that I was helping and serving.

And also Jeff, Pastor Jeff was, was this group. And there's a lot of like ex -Mormons.

And the one thing though, in this ministry is that they would all like group together.

And this sort of this, like this ministry almost sort of became church for them, but almost to the extent where they, they were, they would go to this group and not.

It was, they wouldn't go to church. It was like, this sort of became the church, you know, it's like, how do you help people there, but not let them stay there?

Because I think ultimately you'd want to get them plugged in to the church. Like, well, how do you walk, how do you walk through that?

Like galloping them in that transition. Yeah, I'm smiling. It's quite different for every single person. I'm laughing though, cause

I'm like, well, it's seven weeks. Y 'all getting kicked out at seven weeks. But I mean, yes,

I could step into a different curriculum or, you know, do one -on -one if they're not already and things like that. But as far as getting them connected with a community, it's actually week seven of that curriculum specifically that I have in my head right now.

And that's the one that we're launching in a digital course version here in the July. It looks like it'll be. But the last week is, you know, identifying healthy community.

And then the subtitle is The Seemingly Impossible, because that is the perspective. But it's like, yeah, it can be done. And so we teach people some good steps to take in seeking out a community.

Now, we do tell everyone when we're sharing, again, not everybody's in the same place.

They're not necessarily, you know, claiming Christianity at that time. It's like, this could apply if you're going to go join a jujitsu class or you're going to join a reading club, book club, or you're going to, you know, so think about it in whatever terms.

But the example we give is we apply it to if you're looking for a church community. And so we go through, we even have like a short list of like questions to ask, you know, church leadership that really apply to what they have been through to see.

Because sadly, I mean, we do have church leadership out there that doesn't think religious abuse is real, you know, or they think it's just like buck up and get over it.

You know, everyone's been abused or everyone's been hurt. It's like, okay, I mean, probably true, but like not super helpful. So just helping people to kind of gauge, how do

I sort of dip my toe in and get started? You know, what can I find out online?

And then, you know, did like, and what can I, and I also, I love when people send me a church website and they're like, hey, can you also take a look at this for me?

We are so down to do that. And even give some feedback on, well, here's some questions I would have, you know, about the language that's being used.

I just want some clarity to make sure that it is, it is biblically sound. And so we'll coach people through that as well to get them started.

Yeah. How do you navigate, like say it's week seven and there's people who want to get back into community, say someone's coming out of this total hypothetical,

I'm just wondering how you'd handle it. Someone comes out of Jehovah's Witnesses and they're dead set. They know it's a cult, but somehow these two little young Mormon boys knocked on their door.

Now they're fully convinced that their community needs to be within Mormonism and they feel like that is the true church.

How would you navigate something like that on week seven? Yeah. So, well, if I knew that was happening,

I would right away want to be having some one -on -one conversations with them if they were open to that. And typically someone would be like,

I would just say, hey, I just want to make sure that this is going to be safe for you. And so I have some questions. Like, would you mind if I asked you some of those questions?

Maybe we can even do a virtual with those two boys as well. And maybe we can all talk together. So let's, let's explore that.

Because I don't, it's not going to go well if I jump in and say, nope, you're still wrong. Try again, you know, maybe you'll get it on the third go.

So, I mean, I still want to encourage them that they are seeking out, you know, Jesus. They're wanting to find the truth of the faith.

But here's some, some things that we've got to talk about. And I just recently had a conversation with someone where there's something similar, not quite that, but I had to ask them some, some tough questions.

I'm like, well, if I play this through to its logical end, this is where it lands. Like, what would, what would you respond to that?

What would we do with that? And so, and also being able to take a look at, have you, do you know that they believe this?

And somebody just offering that information, like, hey, do you know they believe this about the afterlife? Like, what do you think about that?

Have you seen that in scripture? Because again, I'm wanting to equip people to be able to find those answers.

So I'm not just directly saying, no, that's also an issue. You know, that's also a cult or that's also it's, hey,

I've got some concerns. I want to make sure that you're safe and like that you're, you're going to move forward the way that you desire to.

So let's back this up. So I would take it offline, honestly, from the group, because I also want to make sure

I'm not bringing too much attention to them in front of others, because that could be embarrassing. They may start to feel some shame that is totally unfounded because they shouldn't in that scenario.

So, yeah, that would be my response. Yeah. Teaching them how to fish versus giving them a fish, you know, because that's because that's the one thing, too, as we kind of wrap up part one here is that, you know, and this is the issue.

Like, I remember like, man, I enjoyed so much being able to talk with someone like Mike Rinder from Scientology of the

Aftermath. And, you know, and I just resonate and have so much empathy for him and people who are in that show who have been through that sort of spiritual trauma.

I think one of the honest shortcomings of that show and and this is an area is that, you know, they would have the idea like you get out of a cold and now now you can just like think for yourself and now you're free because you're not in Scientology anymore.

Well, you know, GK Chesterton said, you know, open mind is like an open mouth eventually has to bite down on something like, how do you like?

We're all susceptible. I mean, you believe in Scientology. So how do you know you're not going to believe in some weird version of that that's just on the other side of the spectrum?

And I think that's why it's important to help people bite down in such a way, understand the counterfeit. This was a counterfeit, but also embrace the authentic.

I think that's why I think your ministry is incredibly important. Yeah. And I think what you said about, you know, teaching them to fish and at the same time, of course, like not letting them to allow them to drown right while we're teaching them.

So there's kind of that both and that we're constantly navigating of, yeah, we want to ask you questions back.

We want to help you find the answers. But also there are times where I, you know, I'm from New York. I can be real direct when

I need to be. So there are times where, like, I've had to just flat out like drop, drop a bomb because it's like this just is going to need to be said right now.

And the fallout is going to be what it is. You don't ever have to come back and see me again if you don't want to. But like, I have to say this because this is really concerning or this is really dangerous.

And so and it's always gone really well because there's a relationship there to do that. And it's just it's it's been good.

But you guys, like, it's also such I mean, we have a prayer team. It is such a prayerful process.

I mean, there are times where I can see I don't mean this in like this, like a spiritual way, just from experience, even like I can see like, oh, this this person, what they're believing right now is really problematic.

But I know that if I just flat out say something like I'm going to lose them right now, like it's just it's not the timing.

And that really is like, again, like being prayerful and like, Lord, please give me discernment in this conversation.

There's times where like after a conversation like I'm on the ground, I'm like, dear God, please have mercy in this situation.

And please have mercy for me. If I didn't navigate that perfectly, like, dear God, like, please, you know, forgive and help and show up because this is beyond all of us.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it is even an example to like even times and maybe Andrew, you can resonate this like we've been on the street, for example, doing evangelism at the

Mormon Temple. And you say you're in a conversation with someone. And maybe if this is something to like my younger years,

I was kind of like cage staging a little bit where it's like you're in a conversation. You feel you feel this like tendency. You just want to throw haymakers like at every, every, every little thing that they say.

And I think as I've gotten older, there's sometimes where someone's talking and there's sometimes where I just I'm letting them talk.

And sometimes I'm just sort of like praying in the back of my head, like, Lord, open this person's eyes and like really, really like genuinely listen to them and be a lot more tactful.

Because I think that's the thing, too, is like getting to understand them because I know there is the danger. I think it's improper talks about like, you know, if you have an answer, if you already if you've already come up with an answer before the other person's done talking, that's not like active listening, you know, and I think that is an area where it's like you have to have.

Yeah, I think you need to tell that you need to tell the truth, but do it in a way with precision and tact.

It is sort of like neural surgery, which sometimes when you're dealing with people, the type of people that you deal with, I think.

Yeah, and sometimes there's just there's trust in how God is moving and the timing of it all.

Because if you take someone for an example, who's just come out of a call, there's so much that's a mess.

Like you can't sit down and like list it all off, right? I mean, that's just going to be overwhelming, discouraging, and they're not going to agree with it all anyway.

It's just it's like, so, okay, like, where do we start? Okay, the next conversation, where are we going now?

And so there really is a lot of a lot of just rooted faith in what the journey is going to be.

Patience, perseverance, trust that God loves them more than we ever could.

And just like, okay, like, this is my part, and we're in this until it's over.

I mean, so here we go. There isn't like, oh, we're done in three months. No, we're going to be in this until it's not needed anymore.

And I'm starting a jar with just like, I want a visual of people who no longer need us.

And it's just amazing to like put the little rocks in the jar to be able to see like these people where they don't have to come every week anymore.

You know, they just pop up here and there if something, you know, hits them, hits them wrong, and they need some extra support.

It's like, it's just amazing to see that happen. Yeah, no, I resonate with you so much. I feel like you and I, like we probably have talked with people.

And Andrew, we have just so many similar stories. And it's, it's one of those things that we rewrap up here.

I remember hearing this guy who was a, he was some sort of therapist or psychologist. And he was talking about how, you know, a surgeon, someone like you, you, you hurt your knee or, you know, if you injure your shoulder and you have to get some sort of surgery like that surgeon, they know what they're doing.

It's pretty much by the book, you have the different tendons and the things that need to get realigned.

But when you're dealing with what you can't see, in this case, the guy was talking about, you know, dealing with trauma.

It's like you're trying to navigate something like you really can't see. And I think there is a similarity when you're kind of dealing with a sort of ministry about, you know, someone who's been in a spiritual abusive environment, like we're trying to like navigate and walk through and, and kind of like an operator, even though we aren't the ones to truly fix it.

I mean, Christ is the one who truly is the one who were true, authentic healing comes from.

And we can point them there, but ultimately it's like the work of the spirit. So it's like, you're trying to like navigate this weird kind of complex world.

And it's, it's something that's, it's incredible to me, it's challenging. And there's something, I think for me, it's like difficult to navigate because sometimes in me, like I want to fix something, you know, if I see someone that's hurting immediately,

I want to go in and fix it. I have this like heart in my shoulder, you know, someone's like hurting. It's like, I don't want you to pay.

I want to fix you. But then it's like, no, I do want to do that. But the way to do that is to point you to Christ where the ultimate source of healing is.

So it's an interesting thing to navigate, especially I have so much, I resonate so much with everything that you're talking about.

Yeah. I've had so many times where, again, I'm like on the floor, I'm sweating at you guys. Cause I'm like, gosh, I didn't,

I just felt like I wasn't supposed to speak to that today. And sure enough, the following week, the person shows up and they already know.

They're telling me about it. And it's just, it just came out in their, their Bible reading that week.

It came out in a converse. It just, it came out like they finally had, you know, just kind of broke and were tearful and they just like, gosh, like, you know, whatever barrier they had up, they just kind of let that guard down.

And I'm like, wow, Lord. Yeah. Like that was you telling me to hold because you were doing something and it's just, it's again, it's amazing.

It's like, I get to do it, but I also get to witness to it. Oh, that's so awesome. So let's, let's do this. Let's real quick before we jump on to part two.

Andrew, I'm going to let you open up part two, cause I feel like there's something on your mind. So just hold onto that if you are.

But yeah, tell everyone real quickly, if they want to get connected with you, you know, you have different curriculums.

I think a lot of people have said have been very, very helpful. What's your home address? Where can people find you at?

Yeah. I just go to be emboldened .com and that'll take you anywhere you need to go.

Okay. Sounds good. We'll have some links in our description when this episode drops. All right. Well, thank you all for listening to part one of our follow -up here with Naomi Wright.

It's good to have you back in studio and all that being said, we will talk to you all next week when we talk with Naomi Wright and we talk further about how to disentangle from spiritual abuse, how to recover from spiritual abuse and just with all her experiences.

I'm really looking forward to the second part of this conversation and we will talk to you all next week on Cultish. Talk to you all soon.