Cults, Apostasy, and Shawn McCraney

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00:00

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it

00:08

Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite? Delusional is okay in your worldview.

00:16

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

00:24

It doesn't really hurt Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men

00:37

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage

00:44

Go into all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right?

00:50

Don't go in the world make homies right disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle Nick I Guess a joke pastor when we have the real message of truth.

01:02

We cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not Beloved Although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation.

01:37

I Found it's necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith.

01:43

That was once for all delivered to the Saints That's Jude verse 3 y 'all what's up, welcome back everybody to another episode of Apologia radio, this is

01:53

Apologia radio This is the gospel heard around the world Coming at you guys from Apologia Studios in Phoenix, Arizona.

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02:45

All of it is there guys Thank you guys so much for supporting us in the work that we're doing Very exciting things happening right now.

02:52

It is now the month of March 2021 2020 was a rotten year in many respects and a good in a great year and others

03:00

But 2021 is starting off really great For the kingdom of God the gospel and in terms of justice for the pre -born.

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I'll introduce that in just a moment here This is Luke the bear. What uh, that's joy the girl right there.

03:12

Hello, and We have exciting things happening right now. So about I'd say about ten years ago

03:19

We of course had many many veterans and heroes of the faith who were preaching the gospel for a long long time

03:25

Outside of abortion mills speaking to legislators all that stuff was happening You had so many good things happening with the church engaging this issue consistently

03:34

Faithfully pleading for the lives of the pre -born and demanding immediate justice however, ten years ago, we didn't have bills in multiple states

03:42

Really? I don't think in any state Working for equal protection the criminalization abolition the end of abortion and right now.

03:50

We're March 2021. We have Three bills already active and in in three different states.

03:57

We have Arizona, Texas South Carolina, so praise God for that and these are equal protection bills really on to right,

04:04

Oklahoma I think So, I mean they're trying anyway, yeah, they are trying they're working on it they got some good stuff going on there

04:13

We have more coming this year So a lot a lot is happening and it's really really amazing and I want to say

04:19

I want to thank Everybody who has been partnering with us for even years through end abortion now Not only have you raised up churches hundreds and hundreds of churches globally who are out preaching the gospel saving lives on a daily

04:30

Daily basis, please understand that I know it's hard to comprehend that to think about all the lives being saved daily because of your partnership with us, but that's happening right now, but also this this is a fruit of the work of end abortion now

04:46

Preaching the gospel bringing the church out into this issue and the consistency that's necessary to establish justice.

04:51

So it's good news It's amazing. We have more more coming this year, but we wanted to do just a quick thing

04:58

We have an important show for everybody today. We're gonna be talking about An unfortunate situation there is an apostate named

05:04

Sean McCraney and I don't mean that as a pejorative That's not merely an emotive term. That's Just classic

05:11

Christian definition. He is somebody who wants professed faith right Orthodox biblical historic

05:16

Christian faith And now he's apostatized and he denies really all the fundamentals of the faith

05:21

And so we've been meaning to do a show on Sean McCraney but I was recently reminded of how necessary it is to do a show on Sean McCraney and sort of Engage some of his teachings and warn people about this very spiritually dangerous man in Utah Who again once was professing

05:38

Christian and by the way, guess what? He once spoke an apology at church Yeah on a Thursday Bible study when we first planted the church

05:45

I think was shortly after that Sean McCraney was in town and he actually was well known as an ex -Mormon who was

05:52

Now trying to help Mormons come out of Mormonism to Christ and he was in town and I don't even know how it happened

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But he ended up at a Thursday Bible study and he taught and so this is very near and dear to our hearts

06:03

But we wanted to before we do that and engage that with Pastor Jason Wallace who has actually

06:10

I'm gonna put the video Into after the show. I'll put the video into the description of the show so you can watch paste

06:15

Pastor Jason Wallace's a little documentary he did on Sean McCraney need to see that I'll put it in the description afterwards

06:22

But before we get to that and have Pastor Jason join us we have Bradley Pierce right now on the line

06:27

Bradley Pierce is an attorney and Bradley Pierce is Working closely with red state reform and with an abortion now on some of these bills for equal protection for the pre -born and so Bradley Pierce is gonna join us just for a few moments here to Talk about what's happening next week in Austin.

06:43

There's there's there's the big thing right now everybody who's watching this You need to join us next week in Austin, Texas on the 30th

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So I'll have Bradley Pierce join us right now Bradley. Welcome to apology or radio Thank you very much good to be with you absolutely brother so quickly let everybody know

07:01

I think how how big this is How important it is and how yeah, go ahead

07:09

Yeah, this is really big this is our third legislative session in a row here in Texas since 2017 that we've had a bill

07:15

That would abolish abortion if our legislators would support it And the support not just among legislators, but among grassroots has continued to grow over the last five years

07:28

So we're really excited that we're going to be having a rally This upcoming Tuesday March 30th at 2 p .m.

07:34

At the Texas Capitol Coming to support actually a couple of bills But we're gonna be doing some citizen lobbying before that and after that but trying to get everybody

07:44

Everybody within the sound of my voice to come support the bill there in Texas So Austin, Texas 2 p .m.

07:52

On the 30th, that's next Tuesday And so we really do need everybody if you're in surrounding states and you can make the drive out to Austin We'd love to meet you

08:02

Shake your hand and and partner with you in this to really display a move of the church

08:09

That's really what this is of the Christian Church Establishing justice in this area. And so we need you to come so if you're in Texas I know

08:14

Texas is like its own country This would be my third time in Texas in a month and driving through it twice and I'll tell you it feels like it's its

08:21

Own country that is a big big state, but that's how they want you to feel. Yeah Everything's big in Texas.

08:28

They're like, obviously this state never ends You feel like you've you entered into like in different dimensions like the state ever end.

08:35

Yeah, but yeah your drive if you're in Texas It's worth a drive. Please come I'd love to shake your hand.

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I'd love to meet with you, but we need you there We really need to display the numbers of people who want to see equal protection for the pre -born

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Which is really what this is all about all human beings protected from conception, which is an indisputable

08:55

Irrefutable fact that you are human from conception. And so we want to establish justice We need you to come so make make make a way take the day off figure it out.

09:03

Bring a church bus Fly out come and join us. We need Christians on the ground here at this rally.

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So I'll be there. I'll be speaking and Let me just ask Brad Why is this particular bill unique in comparison just quickly on this?

09:20

Why is it unique in comparison to other typical pro -life industry efforts towards? fighting abortion

09:28

Yeah, well most pro -life bills that have been filed and passed by state legislatures around the country for the last 48 years

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They have two problems number one They legitimize Roe vs. Wade and treat it like it's a legitimate decision and number two

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They deny equal protection They do not provide the same laws to protect pre -born people as that provide that protect born people

09:52

So this bill is a bill of abolition here in Texas and it would treat

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Roe vs Wade like it is unconstitutional It would treat it that way like it's not the law of the land because it's not and it would also treat the pre -born child in the womb as being equally valuable equally made in the image of God and equally worthy of Protection as someone outside of the womb

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So that's something that we haven't seen in the pro -life movement over the last 48 years But we're excited that we have this bill in Texas to do that.

10:22

That's right. Praise God and the unusual thing Brad I want to make sure I illustrate this the unusual thing about this is

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That when you talk about a bill of equal protection and protecting all humans from conception treating them as equal like a nine -year -old

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You know the ten -year -old or eleven -year -old you would think the pro -life industry would say I'm fully on board with that because that actually is part of their

10:41

Assumption that it's human from conception deserves protection, but we don't see that coming from an industry But we are seeing it now as Christians are fighting against this

10:50

That's right. That's right. In fact at abolish abortion Texas we grew out of Hearing from the pro -life organizations that when when they were asked would you support a bill that totally outlawed abortion?

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They said not only would we not support that bill We would oppose it and that's why we launched this organization and wrote this bill and we're excited that it's been filed for the third third

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Session in a row Yeah And we need Texans and everybody in the area to come out and show their support and show the legislature words that we want to end

11:16

Abortion now in the state of Texas. Yes. Well, thank you. Brad. You have just gonna ask if there's anyone

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That is an enemy to this bill that could potentially be holding it up that people could contact Not yet.

11:32

It has been assigned to a committee But there's no one who is as yet stood up and said they're going to be blocking the bill

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But that's one of the things that you know, that's important about this rally is hopefully, you know

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We'll have such a show of support that that the legislators will say, you know what? I don't want to oppose this bill

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I don't want to oppose such a you know, huge grassroots support for this bill. I'm going to support this bill and that's what us showing up being together and Demonstrating that on Tuesday March 30th at 2 p .m.

12:05

At the Texas Capitol. That's what we intend to do Excellent. So the bill is H will one of the bills the the

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Equal Protection bill is HB 3326 HB 3326 make sure you guys hashtag that HB 3326 show your support make sure the word is out

12:20

Listen the the pro -choicers depend on the fact that people will not talk about these bills not make a big issue over them

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And so the pro -life this so does the pro -life industry Depend upon people as ultimately just ignoring

12:34

Pretending like it doesn't exist hoping it doesn't exist And so we really need you guys to join with us not only in joining us in Austin at the rally itself

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Make sure you guys let people know about what's happening in Arizona right now in Texas right now in South Carolina HB 3326 is the bill one more time

12:50

Brad When and where it's gonna be this upcoming

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Tuesday March 30th at 2 p .m We're gonna be meeting at the southwest corner outside of the

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Capitol Just we'll see everybody there again Tuesday 2 p .m.

13:07

March 30th southwest corner of the Capitol all right brother Thank you for all you're doing. We'll talk to you. I'll see you and I'll see you in,

13:12

Texas Thank you look forward to seeing you yee -haw Yee -haw we didn't ruin a perfectly good.

13:23

I know I know I know I know okay all right so Joy you've been with us since the very beginning of Apology at Church And so when you when you think about something like this what's happening right now?

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What's that? What's that do for you in terms of encouragement or anything when you know like where we came from we just? Started going outside the abortion mill if we didn't know really we were doing we're just like we know we know we have to Do this we went to preach the gospel and help and then end abortion now comes along And then these churches start being added now.

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We have three bills. I'm gonna say I'm ecstatic I I truly am just like wow three and the year has just started like kovat 2020 stunk, and I'm feeling pretty good about 2021 already and the mask mandate was just lifted from Lord Ducey to yeah

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I know so yeah, we'll see even even with resident Biden in charge Hey, he can sign orders, but it can't walk upstairs.

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That's right. That's right look poor guy. I mean come on Revolve we've all you know he was like okay.

14:25

Let's just get to the top. Let's do the salute, okay No, I just think

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I just think it means that God Blesses faithfulness and it's interesting because a lot of the ways that we have

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I don't know like I think sometimes people get caught up in Like you're talking about kind of just going out there and starting

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Something a lot of people get caught up in the details but something that you're very good at is just starting something and Everyone's like how's that gonna work?

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I'm right. Yeah, and that's more. I'm the one that's like so what do we do? Yeah, how do you put the structure? And well, that's always

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Luke's position Yeah, I'm always sort of the dreamer and like what we need to do this and Luke goes all right Let me build this real fast.

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It puts it together Yeah, but there are some things that I think you can just things that are Things that are just faithful.

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I wouldn't say this about everything, but there are things like protecting children That are commanded by Scripture.

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So we should expect that God would bless right those things and right obviously

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He has because we started just going out and being like, okay Well, let's just save one baby and then we'll find out what that family needs from us, right if they need

15:45

A package of diapers and that's it or if they need child care for the next ten years or whatever, you know we'll just kind of figure it out as we go and then

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It was an abortion now and then it was kits and then it was figure out how to ship them and then and it all Just the structure all came.

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Yeah, so I'm gonna place. Yeah, God did it people just need to be brave. Yes being cowards That's why there's been no bills because people are afraid to like just be bold and one courageous

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I think patience too is something that's such a big part of it that we lack especially in our social media age where we just kind of like Slam our opinion into the keyboard and then we're just like, all right.

16:23

Bye Deuces and it's something that I've learned watching especially pastors

16:30

Be pastors in my vicinity, which is that you will answer the same questions over and over again

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You will hear the same complaints. You will hear the same lazy arguments and you just have to be able to say just keep no

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I'm here to just keep answering those questions and not make it about me or that.

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I'm annoyed or it's not Abortion is not an injustice that's being done against us personally, right?

16:58

It's a first and foremost an offense against God. So that's why you're supposed to show up not because of your own

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Personal feelings necessarily. That's right. I'll just say one last word on this We're gonna bring Jason Wallace in and talk about the apostate

17:11

Sean McCraney. He's on by the way. Oh, is he? Okay, great. So just quick thing if you look in the all of a discourse after Jesus describes a great tribulation

17:18

I'm actually preaching on this very soon. So it's fresher in mind and I'm thinking in turn I was thinking a lot about what God gave to us early on and it was just really cool as I'm sort of developing

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How do I make this beneficial for the church? Jesus gives these different parables about He got the virgins

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Trimming their wicks, you know They're ready with the oil and the other ones didn't bring the oil and all that stuff and you got the person who unexpectedly gets

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His house broken into by a thief, you know the surprise of like oh I wasn't expecting this and then Jesus talks about the slaves where the master gives them talents

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Which is basically bags of gold and it was like millions and millions of dollars. Yeah, and So he gives the master gives to the slave

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Who has already had his debt paid by the master now? He's sort of like working like that. You paid you freed me.

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You took away my debt So now the master doesn't just free you of the debt and now the master says I'm gonna put you in charge of stuff Here's my dollars go build something.

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So what's amazing is that God gives these servants bags of gold and says, okay Here's five for you because you you think

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I think you can handle that and here's two for you And then this one you will you can handle one. It's like million. It's still a million bucks

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So, you know like it's still no need to get like weird about right how many talent? Well da

18:25

Carson makes a good commentary on this is really really cool He talks about the fact that obviously the slavery that exists in the Roman Empire You did have people who were who were war booty.

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You did have people who were Yeah, you know picked up captured slaves like kidnap spoil, yeah okay, so they they they

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That's well, that's what you call it so We're children So you you have people who you did have the kind of slavery those common form of slavery was an economic kind of thing

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Because there was no bankruptcy laws. So if you were look you could be a great business owner You own like five markets in that day, but then things go bad.

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They come crashing down. You own it You own a ton of money. You you didn't have bankruptcy protection You had to get yourself out of out of this or die

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By somebody saying I'll pay your debt for you, but you're gonna come work for me now, right? So you can have very very intelligent and proficient slaves.

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They just are in a situation where there's no bankruptcy protection They have to work it off. And so you when

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Jesus is in that context talking about I'm a master. You're a slave There's a good master who took away your debt right and stopped you from dying, right?

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And so you could have somebody when it says I gave you five It's because this person might have been a great accountant.

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It might have been a great business manager You can do five you can do two because you have the skills for this here's a million bucks now go and and and expand my assets make it better and and then of course the five makes double five more he makes a ton more money and The two makes double and then you have the one who says well

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I just know you're a harsh master and you know, you're reaping where you didn't sow and all this stuff And so I buried it. I didn't do anything with what you told me to do.

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He says wicked and lazy servant and so what's amazing about a situation we're in now is at times

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I think it looks like this for Christians if God gave you a bag of gold He gave you wealth with your gifts with your calling with your talents

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Don't be the wicked lazy servant who buries it Sometimes you just have to say because it says when the first and I'm so I know we have

20:24

Jason now But I just gotta say this in terms of like what God builds it says in the text. Jesus says he gave the five

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It says immediately. He went to work, right? So he gets it and he just goes. Okay, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go try

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I'm gonna go work. He just starts putting it to work Immediately he goes to put it to work while the lazy one just goes well

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I've got this thing, but uh, I'll go ahead and bury it and Jesus says to that person You're wicked and lazy. Sometimes you get a bag of gold from God You just need to start putting it to work and that doesn't mean necessarily capital

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It can mean that it does mean that sometimes but also means gifts talents. What opportunities has

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God given to you? Are you burying the opportunity God gave to you? So at times in ministry? You've looked at it like that like God calls us to do this

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He's given us the wealth for it the skill the talent the desire. Let's put it to work Let's go immediately immediately to work and then he all of a sudden just grows it and expands it and the glory of that passage

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Is that Jesus when he comes and says and he makes an account accounting with that. He says look you've doubled this you've made five

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He says look I'm gonna put you in charge of way more now and now enter into the happiness of your master.

21:24

Mm -hmm That's great. I want to hear that. So get to work Christians. Here we go. Sean McCraney Utah Ex -evangelical ex -mormon denies all of biblical

21:37

Orthodoxy the historic Christian faith all of the things that bind us together I will just say quickly I read Jude 3 at the beginning of this episode because Early in the

21:45

Christian Church. There was the call For the Christians to earnestly contend for the faith, which was once for all

21:53

Delivered to the Saints. So there was a faith that could be defended. There was a faith that was known There was a doctrine of Christ that was known

22:00

There was a doctrine of salvation that was known the church in Ephesus didn't look like the church in Corinth But they were bound together by common confession

22:08

Okay, they're very different struggles. They looked different They would have a look a mostly

22:13

Jewish early Christian Church would have looked a little different Than a mostly Gentile Church over here But they're bound together by common confession a common belief about who

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God was how they knew God and that's what bound them together it's matter of fact, there's other details in a

22:26

New Testament where it literally is like this Paul's like it wisdom to them is like These disputes over like whether you can eat meat sacrifice to idols or not or whether you should do this or that day

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These side the Adi offer things got Paul's honest apostolic thing to them is all summarizes.

22:42

Shut up Shut up stop don't destroy your brother for that. Shut up. Keep those things on the side

22:47

But there was always a binding together of the people of God by common confession over the essentials

22:53

Sean McCraney now just denies all of them. Yeah, and pastor Jason Wallace knows Sean McCraney has engaged with him

22:59

He's in Utah where Sean is and so pastor Jason Wallace. Thank you for joining us an apology or radio

23:05

Good to be with you. Thank you so much brother Thank you also for waiting for us today through our technical difficulties and everything

23:11

I know we've kept you online waiting for a while so I appreciate the patience and I look I'm very very excited to do this show with you brother because You represent somebody who has a lot of insight concerning Sean McCraney where he was where he is now

23:26

Pastor Jason you did a documentary which I'm going to put in the description of this show That is very very helpful.

23:33

We're gonna play through some of it, but can you help our listeners get caught up? Give us sort of an understanding through your eyes your experience knowing who

23:41

Sean McCraney was and then seeing the the Apostasy take place. What what what what's that?

23:47

Like? What did it? Where was he? What did you get to see? Well, basically

23:52

Sean's a little bit older than I am I think he's late 50s pushing 60 and Grew up in California By his own admission very ungodly

24:07

Youth but was raised in the Mormon Church Did his mission? became a seminary teacher which is their education system for junior high and high school students

24:21

He ends up Getting excommunicated from the

24:26

Mormon Church. I'm not real clear on all the details. I know there was he's admitted there was a sexual immorality involved

24:33

He was also drinking a lot I think doing some drugs as well He ends up listening to Charles Stanley On the radio makes a profession of faith he starts taking some classes through Calvary Chapel School of Ministry and Ends up writing a book in 2003 called

24:56

I was a born -again Mormon There's a fellow here that's another former Mormon who has been

25:03

He started a group called standing together, which is basically promoting evangelical unity on a lowest common denominator basis and also dialogue with the

25:14

Mormons and He disagrees with Greg Johnson is the head of standing together

25:24

He disagrees with me, but I've told him to his face I Basically view him as trying to get

25:30

Christian Mormons recognized as Christians He has done a lot of stuff over the years to lead to that conclusion

25:39

He says he's not but it just keeps coming to that point. Well he discovers

25:46

McCraney's book and it feeds into this Idea that you can be born again and in the

25:51

Mormon Church and stay there and So it's a relationship not a religion kind of approach if you can imagine.

25:59

Yeah, and so He had a television program on a local

26:06

Christian television station and that's a story in itself, but he interviews

26:11

Sean Then convinces the station manager to let

26:17

Sean do his own show Now Sean by his own admission had only attended two to three no more than five evangelical worship services in his life but he gets made a televangelist and It's somewhat ironic because he was

26:38

I Think expected to fit in with this narrative Well, Sean quickly figured out that that wasn't the narrative.

26:45

Most people wanted to hear they wanted more anti -mormonism and so he took a lot of the things that have been done by the tanners and others over the years and Recycled them with a lot of charisma.

26:59

He was very cutting and insulting about the Mormons and he became

27:06

Very popular here. He was somewhat the poster boy for evangelicalism for a number of years

27:11

I started his show in March of 2006 Did that for nearly seven years and it was very

27:19

Calvary Chapel Me my Bible my personal relationship with Jesus sort of an easy believism but he had

27:29

Been trying to go national with his show. He had gotten almost a cult following here

27:35

I mean people would pack out the studio to watch him and he would go and hold court in a bar restaurant afterwards and Um, he had been pushing the station manager to allow him to do a show dealing with evangelicalism to attack it station manager wouldn't allow it and so January 2013 he did it on his own.

28:00

He said we're done dealing with Mormonism. We're gonna put that aside and He said I think I think at the time it was like there's 14 million

28:07

Mormons, but there's a billion evangelicals Well Greg Johnson starts a petition.

28:15

I think the station manager met a station manager and already tried to remove him but he

28:21

He ends up getting removed from TV 20 and starts doing a podcast over the internet and so He Hinted at things at first, but he was trying to get back on TV 20

28:36

But by October he was done and he then started going through a litany of things that evangelicalism had wrong and he started attacking of course

28:46

Calvinism, then he went to eternal hell and Eventually he

28:54

Ends up becoming announcing that he's full preterist. Yeah, and they're coming and Essentially, it's it's a restorationism.

29:04

It's in my opinion. It's Mormonism repackaged With with less overhead and him as the as the mouthpiece of God.

29:13

Well, you make that point Pastor Jason in the film and the the it's called the

29:18

Bible Versus Sean McCraney the Bible versus Sean McCraney again We're gonna play just a little bit of it today, but you you were really making that point in showing some intersection between What the

29:31

Prophet of the Mormon Church used to claim and sort of what his assumptions were where he was going?

29:36

The intersections between him and his beliefs and Sean McCraney And again, we're gonna play through some of that But you mentioned there

29:46

Pastor Jason you said That he's full preterist or hyper preterist That is very dangerous

29:54

Heresy it is not biblical. It is not historical and It's a dangerous thing

30:01

I mean just think about a world that goes on forever and ever with sin and corruption no ultimate redemption of all this earth and resurrection of it and no final judgment and resurrection of the of the just and the unjust that's a dangerous thing and Sean McCraney also believes that Because the second coming and final judgment or whatever is however, he sees it perceives it in the past.

30:25

It's done That all of the commands in Scripture regarding church order And church authority church government are irrelevant

30:34

Now because the Christ has already returned It's all over now And so there's no need for elders in the church now or church order like the

30:40

Bible can't really define those things for you It's fairly convenient. It's fairly convenient. Yeah, he denies the

30:46

Trinity Yep, he is a very very very hostile towards the Trinity He's referred to the

30:52

God of the Bible and God of the store of Christianity as a monster who all said that hmm Joseph Smith Yeah, and and from what

31:01

I understand and he seems like he's a moving target at times pastor Jason, but what I understand He's essentially he's essentially a universalist at this point, correct?

31:08

Doesn't he I mean he calls Mormons brothers and sisters in Christ. He acts like these differences are sort of a moot point

31:15

I've heard him say things that sound like that, but is that true? Is that where he is that where he stands today? It's very hard to get

31:22

Sean pinned down on any specific doctrine Because he always wants to put his own spin on it, right, you know, he

31:31

Very publicly very passionately said, you know, they try to call me a modalist. I'm not a modalist and Then finally admits

31:38

I am a modalist. Yeah, that's in your film. It's excellent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he He says he's not a universalist he's an ultimate reconciliationist

31:50

So he actually don't believe he believes that people go to hell or at least he used to I think he's

31:58

His he is a moving target. He keeps shifting everything. Yeah, but he used to he showed a clip of some universalist that basically

32:11

Equated potty training with hell and that God was holding us on this flaming toilet until we finally believed and You know, it's sort of a purgatory kind of thing everyone eventually gets reconciled to God and he said he says there's

32:30

But there's two destinations. There's inside the New Jerusalem and outside the New Jerusalem Yeah There's a better analogy than a flaming toilet.

32:40

I would say more like I would say more like rest stop bathrooms Think it think of how like a rest stop bathroom

32:45

I've seen some that I think might have been an opening and some of those should be land fire

32:52

Okay, so Listen, this is important because Pastor James White.

32:58

He's pastor at Apology at Church Pastor James and Pastor Jason are good friends. They've done a lot of things together and for like how many years?

33:05

I don't even know 30 Well over 20 Probably going on 21 22 years.

33:12

Yeah. Yeah, and so Pastor Jason has deep affection for Pastor Jason and we actually did a debate

33:19

Was it last year, I don't even remember last year's a blur 2019 we did a debate at the

33:26

University of Utah and then we also had Pastor James do a debate at Pastor Jason's Church at any rate

33:32

Pastor James Flew out to go be on Sean McCraney's program. You guys can watch that.

33:38

It's actually very it's very insightful And it's a long program Pastor James got like 45 minutes

33:45

Sean McCraney got 45 minutes and then they just talked and in there you get a good idea of the fact that I'll just say

33:51

This is respectfully as I possibly can as a minister of the gospel. Sean McCraney is clueless. He doesn't have any idea

33:58

What he's talking about he makes up facts about history on the fly and then when he's corrected on that he's like, yeah

34:05

Yeah, I was wrong about that I mean, he'll just he'll just say the most audacious things and claims and then he'll he has nothing to support nothing to back it

34:13

He's a moving target again in the film you'll see that he makes the claim I'm not a modalist I'm not a modalist six months later, whatever it was.

34:20

He's like, I'm a modalist, you know He I think I think he's trying to figure this out as he goes I don't know the man's heart, but it seems like that watching him

34:27

I can't get it come to any of the conclusion is that he didn't really know like where am

34:32

I going? I don't have all the information. He sort of just changes on the fly He's a dangerous man.

34:38

And let me just say I Want to say the reason this burden came back to me Because we had talked about this in the past We should do a show on Sean McCraney and really make sure people understand where he's at what you know

34:50

How what's what's concerning about him? I got it. I got an email or a message.

34:55

Yeah Was it called check my church or something like that It was a website called check my church or something like that It was a way it was it was a person who said that she's part of a church watchdog group a church watchdog, whatever that means and the whole focus of this minute this website was to be a church watchdog group so people can go and check on their church and See like the scoop on their church and stuff like that.

35:19

Okay. All right Okay, you know if there was people who are part of Jason's church that were like hey

35:24

We want to have like a solid resource for churches and know like what this church believes and those sorts of things I'd say great that those people are under they're under accountability.

35:32

They're part of a church. They're concerned with biblical truth That's sort of a check my church. Yeah, and so I thought okay It's not necessarily turned off because it's called a church watchdog group, but I don't know this person check my church

35:42

And so then she starts asking questions about membership stuff. There's a very well at first I was like you have a copy or membership manual.

35:50

I'm like, yeah, sure Like what's that? I guess I wouldn't mind someone who cares. Yeah, great It just sort of says this is what we believe and here's who we are and here's our

35:59

Distinctives and you know that sort of thing like church government were pastors elders and we got deacons and you know Here's their responsibilities and you know, sure.

36:06

I'll put that on the internet. No problem Then it's asking questions about like the budget and how do you come to your budget who decides this and I'm thinking

36:13

This is an interesting sort of like first introduction He's a very probing question and then another message came you you showed me.

36:21

I didn't see it I couldn't actually find it and was asking other questions Related to like slander about us on the internet and stuff like that seem like a veiled threat.

36:29

It was more like posts controversy Yeah, like but you know when you like it was bringing up like the the known Christian tabloid, which you know

36:36

We're not gonna get into that right now. That's been refuted over and over again People know to stay away from filled with false information and is and honestly filled with lies absolute lies and So I was like, hmm.

36:49

So looking at it a little bit more. I have a burden on my heart for this woman It just I I do of course for anybody who's lost or a part of a non -christian cult

37:00

But I get a burden for her and and then I look in the website and I see

37:05

She says that they you know, they had some problems with past churches and on the website It says that she's a part of Sean McCraney's group.

37:13

And so yeah. Yeah, so I start thinking these questions pastor Jason How are you part of a church watchdog group?

37:21

When you are part of an organization that denies orthodox biblical faith How are you part of a church watchdog group when your leader in Utah doesn't believe that there is any

37:33

Commands are any commands for church order that are relevant to us post Second coming and resurrection and all that stuff like that.

37:41

In other words what you're asking questions about churches. How do you do this? How do you do that? when all of its irrelevant according to your leader because there are no commands in Scripture about church order and You're not a part of a

37:52

Christian organization So, how are you a church it'd be like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses sending us a thing saying hey we want to put a thing on our website we'd like to know how you handle this and I would say there are

38:02

Bigger fish to fry here. I like the fact that you don't know God right and you don't know the gospel

38:08

And so is it so anyway, she did message me back and I do have a burden in my heart for this woman I love her.

38:13

I don't know. It's just a deep one. I thought we have to do this show We've got to do it if not just for her and her husband

38:19

But also for people who need to know about Sean McCraney because the man is dangerous You know, he denies

38:25

Biblical faith Orthodox Christian confession, you know, here's important to think I want to say this and then pastor

38:30

Jason I want to hear what you have to say. I Recognize and she brought this up to me. I Recognize that the word cult is thrown around a lot today

38:40

It's it's almost lost the pastor James says I almost never use it because it's lost its meaning Today and I totally understand that because you know, we've been called a cult people slander us all the gossip people

38:50

Like well, you're a cult like, you know, let's call us a cult death scourts Planned Parenthood death scourts. Call us a court a cult

38:56

Yeah, they always say you're part of the cult of Jeff Durbin or something. Well, they're death scourts. They're killing babies

39:02

That's just a pejorative. It's just an emotive thing. And she said that they also think you have a vacation home in New Zealand Apparently this just shows you the slander on the internet

39:11

They're publishing publishing today that that that we have church plants in New Zealand, Ireland, Ireland And they were like, yeah, they're doing that so they can have vacations plants in quotes

39:24

Yeah, we don't even have church plants in Ireland or New Zealand. We've gone there to help the church save babies at any rate

39:31

I Understand that the word cult is can be a motive and it could just be a pejorative and just tossed around like nothing

39:37

I understand that I get it. I grant it but this this woman who I really care about She mentioned that she had read

39:45

The Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin and that's what like, you know, that's how that's done something for her in the past And I thought to myself well, dr

39:52

Martin would tell you I know he would for a fact that the Christian definition of a cult is

40:00

Sean McCraney and Here's how because it's a person or an organization that Tells people they're representing

40:08

Orthodox biblical Christianity, but ends up changing definitions and denies all biblical faith that is the

40:14

Christian definition of a cult and so Sean McCraney when I say is With his group is a cult.

40:21

I mean that according to the classic Christian definition not pejorative not emotive It is classic

40:27

Christian definition. That is just definitional. That's what the man is running out there

40:32

He's a cult leader. He denies Orthodox biblical faith and the historic Christian confession

40:38

And he's dangerous he's he's very very dangerous, but also again, I just want to highlight that it strikes me as as Difficult to conceive of but a person running a church watchdog organization

40:51

Who is part of a group that denies that there's any commands in terms of biblical order and authority or anything like that at all?

40:57

That's what their leader says Sean McCraney says that he said it to Pastor James while they're having a discussion He denies the biblical

41:03

God. He denies the biblical gospel He denies final judgment and resurrection like all this.

41:09

It's just this Gnosticism ultimately like this higher spiritual story out here and God's not really concerned with this and renewing this and resurrecting this ultimately

41:18

It's a scary thing, but Sean McCraney is dangerous Pour all the Christian terminology you want into it.

41:25

He's no different than Joseph Smith Charles Taze Russell David Koresh use Christian language all you want.

41:31

Here's the thing ready respectfully. I'm not buying it. I've seen enough of these charlatans I've read enough of these charlatans.

41:36

I've engaged with enough of them to tell you that Sean McCraney. I'm not buying it You didn't understand Christianity before apparently

41:44

In terms of your misrepresentations of the Trinity You didn't understand the Trinity and yet you were a

41:49

Christian in Terms of you couldn't even point to what it actually what Christianity has taught for 2 ,000 years on this

41:56

You didn't understand that and yet you pretended to teach people about Christianity And it's one of the things and then

42:01

I will shut up on this that What was his name Pastor Jason who did James debate it was Baker Lee Baker Lee Baker, he said he said it and I'll turn this over to you another great example is what

42:13

Pastor James is making a point Don't be quick to rush somebody who leaves Mormonism to a position of teaching and authority just because they're ex -mormon

42:21

They need a time of like walking with God understanding his word Understanding truth growing in truth before they're ever to become a teacher and you've got now two apostates in Utah Lee Baker Sean McCraney ex -mormons turned ex -evangelicals and now one is is

42:37

Preaching some crazy stuff Sean McCraney is but then also Lee Baker. I think what is he going like?

42:43

Jewish No, no Akai Judaism. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's right Judaism for Gentiles.

42:50

Okay. Anyway, Pastor Jason maybe fill in some gaps here. What are your thoughts on all that? Sean plays on the betrayal that most ex -mormons feel

43:03

You know the Mormon Church has taught them a history That it doesn't take a whole lot of scrutiny of their own materials from past years to find out they've been they're lying to you

43:14

You know You you you were taught that you know, Joseph Smith translated the plates

43:22

Out on a table and you know doing it normally and you find out you know that the anti Mormons have actually been telling you the truth that The plates weren't even in the room a lot of the time where they were covered up and he had his hat there his head buried in a hat looking at a seer stone and You know eventually a lot of people

43:45

Figure out the Mormons have been lying and So there's a sense of betrayal there

43:51

They've been conditioned all their lives that all the other churches are wrong that the pastors are all in it for the money

43:59

That you know, it's it's all about control when you know all these other things

44:06

What Sean does is He spins that in a new way. The Mormons claim that they're the loving ones.

44:13

They're the great You know that they're everyone else's is corrupt and evil Sean plays on that temptation to baptize what you ate and make it a measure of piety and So This check my church feeds right into that the reality is

44:35

They're checking the church to see if it actually holds to biblical standards Are there unbiblical churches that that do that have membership and things like that?

44:44

Of course there are but from Sean's position any church that has any accountability that claims any physical

44:56

Reality in terms of structure in terms of relationships that are not completely at your discretion

45:03

Any church that claims that there's a second coming any church that? preaches things in terms of duties to God and his church

45:16

They're legalists. They're just like the Mormons and so he feeds on that and You know, he does away with the temples he does he denounces tithing

45:29

He denounces the things that that many people have in a sore subject But then he claims that he's getting direct revelations from God and he he is one most vicious

45:43

People imaginable at times and You know, he will just rail against pastors.

45:51

He'll rail against churches He just rails against anyone who disagrees with him, but then he'll say but we're about love

46:01

Yeah, and yeah, and it's And that's dangerous

46:07

Yes, he he's playing on the whole Mormon mindset of How how do you feel?

46:14

Godly, you feel godly in your ignorance because Pastors are portrayed as pointy -headed

46:22

Intellectuals in an ivory tower at best debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and you know, it's it's it's a throwback to the old to the old

46:35

Mormonism where God is speaking here and now and so, you know, it's a charismatic kind of, you know, new

46:43

Pentecost and Then you feel pious not only for your ignorance, but for your hatred and you know when we start trying to tell people you should be loving

46:54

Christ and it's a if you If you love him, you want to know who he is and it does matter

47:01

Who he is? You know, then he just rants, you know, you're concerned about being right.

47:07

I'm concerned about people. I'm concerned about love And that there's a bunch of people who fall for that Right.

47:16

It's very popular in our modern culture. That just feeds right into it, you know It's easy to capture people with that message.

47:23

Well Pastor Jason at least he didn't call you a rat bastard Remember that That was the most peculiar.

47:31

I Know I know that's what I thought like, you know, I call it, you know, I engage this up It's not like I think

47:36

Jason Wallace is a rat bastard. I was like Did you just have a slip? I Don't know.

47:43

It's just one of the things I was like It was jolting for me because I was trying to watch him and hear from him and he said that I was like That's such a weird

47:49

It's a weird moment. You did a show with James two years ago, didn't you? I'm the dividing line because he was talking.

47:57

He was talking some junk about you and James I remember and I think you went on the dividing line And responded to some because that's when he started like denying the

48:05

Trinity and stuff like that. I might have I might have Yeah Well, let's do this because because time here

48:12

I'm gonna go ahead and play through just a couple of minutes here We might engage with a little bit of this of Pastor Jason Wallace's a little documentary on Sean McCraney I look

48:20

I saw it today. I was like 4 ,500 views this needs to have way more way way more.

48:26

It's done very very well It's done in a way that is very instructive. It's broad in terms of all that it engages with with Sean McCraney I found it actually enlightening and kind of entertaining in terms of how that was this was put together.

48:39

It's Pastor Jason I think you did a great job on this. I want to make sure everyone sees it So I'm gonna go ahead and play Through and I'll stop here.

48:46

They're joy Feel free or Luke feel free to jump in or Pastor Jason just tell me to stop if you want to talk about something

49:07

I publicly proclaim That here at campus we have the best approach to Christianity on the face of the earth

49:17

What Sean calls the best approach to Christianity ends up looking a lot like what

49:23

Joseph Smith taught and Sometimes even Sean will admit that I Have always believed since I got into ministry since I was born again, not before That I was made by God to possess certain traits that were common to what the founder of Mormonism had

49:41

Here are things where I am like Smith. I also disagree with The way churches are today.

49:51

He did too. He didn't like him. He stood up. This is where the thing comes He's trying to be another

49:56

Joseph Smith. I don't like what the churches are either, you know Sean doesn't preach temples or baptisms for the dead

50:04

But like Smith, he claims that Christianity experienced a great apostasy from which he is now rescuing it

50:11

His version of the apostasy isn't based on a loss of priesthood authority But instead on the idea that Jesus's second coming was in 70

50:19

AD Whether you realize it or not all of the

50:24

New Testament writers fully expected taught and Encouraged the believers who trusted them in that day

50:33

To believe his return the second coming was on its way and would happen within 40 years or so of his death

50:42

Though Sean doesn't like the term. It's a perspective known as hyperpreterism That was all wrapped up the materialism of the faith at that time

50:54

That started with the nation of Israel and their material commandments And it was wrapped up by Jesus fulfilling and coming back and taking his material bride

51:03

The church at that time was his material bride and he came back and took her

51:09

For Sean the church that was left apostatized It did so when it continued to expect a material structure with elders accountability and discipline

51:18

He says that all these undermine the only real requirement love We enter into an age that's been ongoing now where the gates of hell have done nothing but prevail against the church

51:30

We haven't we've yet to see a material church that's been true and faithful They've all gone askew so they're raping boys and they're they're impregnating nuns and they're building billion -dollar malls and they're doing their

51:43

Television programs and they're and they're getting raking in the dough and they're fighting Lear jets

51:48

They're doing name it and claim it and false healings you name it show me the material church that has not been overcome and And I'll pay you a hundred bucks like Joseph Smith Sean uses errors in some churches to dismiss all or at least almost all of the rest

52:09

We don't need the religion. We don't need the churches. We don't need the budgets We don't need them. We don't need any of that stuff.

52:16

None of it and we have missed that for 2 ,000 years after nearly 2 ,000 years

52:22

Well, that's a only be restored. That's a lot even in the first three and a half minutes there

52:28

And it gets deeper and deeper and deeper But it is interesting and it's beat and I know we have a lot of viewers are like what in the heck is hyperpreterism

52:36

What in the world is talking about you should know of course I'm not gonna do a big show on this right now or a big description look over the last eight years of preaching through Matthew But there is an historic preterism or a partial preterism or a

52:50

Christian preterism That is seen throughout the history of the church. You have moments even like Eusebius early church in book six

52:57

I think it is he he refers to the Olivet discourse the Great Tribulation passage and actually refers to the history around that and Says that the early

53:05

Christians escaped Jerusalem and the judgment on Jerusalem because they were warned by Jesus And they fled to a town called

53:11

Pella in other words You see me saying like they read the Olivet discourse or something pertaining to them the Great Tribulation And then they were able to escape the judgment on Jerusalem historic or partial preterism is a perspective that we hold also

53:24

And again, if you want a description of that However all Let me say that again all of Christian history based on the

53:34

Bible all of Christian history the Christian Church has affirmed final judgment the resurrection of the just and the unjust and that Christ is returning and Sean McCraney denies that that's hyperpreterism.

53:48

He says no. That's it. It's all over. It's done. It's finished. It's over So no more churches no more budgets.

53:53

It's called campus church by the way. It's just weird No more budgets and these sorts of things.

53:58

It's like Really Sean really? No more budgets So we shouldn't as churches have a budget to pay for widows and orphans to adopt children

54:09

How about how about budgets we raise money as Christians? We give towards ministries like say and abortion now that have saved thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of children

54:19

It's just just this it's it's this Mindless Critique ultimately, it's it's just sort of a word salad at times just throwing it out there not thinking about consequences

54:30

But all of it fundamentally comes from the fact that he doesn't believe that there's really any direction anymore

54:36

For the church in terms of church order church government. That's gone It's unnecessary

54:41

And however, he likes to critique other churches and their church government and everything else as though there were a standard

54:48

So what's the standard now it's not Scripture saying here's church order here's church government Sean says no that's over with okay

54:54

So then how do we do this Sean? What's the standard Sean says? I'll tell you it's not like this. It's like that It's like it's like me.

55:00

It's how I'm doing it Yeah, so, you know, it's the Scriptures now are no longer the standard for Sean McCraney on these areas of life.

55:08

It's Sean Sorry. Yeah, Sean McCraney and it really is a conflict between sola scriptura

55:16

Scripture alone is a soul infallible rule of faith and practice for the church or Solo scriptura where it's me and myself alone with Jesus under a tree of my

55:25

Bible you know just sort of like it forgetting the church and everything else and Or you have sola

55:31

Ecclesia where the church is the ultimate standard they say this is the truth and the Bible takes a backseat to that and so Sean McCraney Let you guys jump in here, but he fundamentally denies

55:46

The biblical God he is at least unless he's still that moving target and he's changed his position a modalist

55:53

Which is one of the earliest heresies Yeah refuted by the Christian Church in the second century of the church in other words people like Sean have been here for a long time and the church has

56:05

Consistently and always had victory with the scriptures over heretics like Sean McCraney He didn't come up with anything new.

56:13

This isn't some new revelation an interesting thing we've been dealing with charlatans like Sean McCraney for 2 ,000 years and His modalism is something that was refuted very early on in church history

56:23

And the Christian Church has been unified on this listen all the creeds of Christendom. You're gonna get this Okay, listen Roman Catholicism Greek Orthodoxy whether you want to talk about the

56:31

Protestants put it look all the creeds of Christendom We all agree on the Trinity Historic Christianity has never

56:39

Abandoned that okay. Now. I'm not saying that Rome preaches the gospel. That's an apostate church. I'm not saying

56:44

Greek Or that I'm saying that you you're not gonna get a difference here in the history of Christianity on this point

56:50

The church has been unified over the nature of God who God is three persons co -equal co -eternal

56:56

Namely the Father the Son and Holy Spirit Sean McCraney denies the biblical God Denies him he can't point you to God because he denies the true

57:05

God and his gospel is not the biblical gospel So how important is this subject very important devastating?

57:12

I don't know how how big his following is at the moment, but I care about the woman who contacted me Mm -hmm.

57:18

I care about that one soul care about her husband praying for them. There's also many many people even in as we speak people that People that think they can divorce what historic

57:32

Christianity Actually is like from what they perceive Christianity to be I mean, we already said it this episode that just just tends to be sort of a cultural problem like I'm I I'm gonna

57:44

I want to call myself a Christian for some reason, but I Issue all the beliefs of Christianity and I just think that love is the standard

57:54

But by the way, it's only my subjective view of what love is and if I feel like you're being unloving to me

58:01

Then I can actually judge you and say you're not saved And that's just You know, that's not even like a

58:09

Sean McCraney thing. That's That's just kind of what what we live in right now yeah,

58:15

I was gonna say cuz there's actually someone on here right now that's defending Sean and Saying that this is all your opinion and telling people that there were not not

58:26

They're not his authority, which I thought was interesting into the screen You just had up of Sean where it was to deny church authority, whatever my question for you my magic man 21 is

58:39

Is Sean an authority over you Does he stand where however you guys do church services?

58:45

He's stand from the pulpit and speak authoritatively to you from God's Word and say this is what God's Word says

58:51

He is acting as an authority over you. So that whole Concept of the nine church authority is really silly.

58:58

It's an impossible. Yeah inevitable thing So it's actually funny that you pointed that that out at just this moment because This next part of Pastor Jason's film gets into that point and then

59:09

I want to have Pastor Jason speak to this Listen to McCraney on authority bring real Christianity unlike Smith's version

59:18

Everything is individualistic and subjective and our only accountability is to God The funny thing is that this new ethic fits perfectly with what

59:28

Sean was teaching Long before he embraced hyper -preterism and that leads me to the final criticism, which has been tossed at me this week and It's a favorite from the minds of of weak men

59:41

It's built on the idiocy of there being safety in numbers and that popular opinion rules and that individual

59:49

Individuals in the Christian Church must be governed by other men

59:55

What am I talking about it's this constant cacophonous

01:00:01

Din bemoaning the fact that Sean McCraney is not Accountable to anybody

01:00:13

Nothing could be further from the truth Nothing. I am completely accountable to God But that doesn't seem to be enough in this day and age of Christian ease

01:00:28

Not for controlling fearful men They are of the opinion that I need to answer to a human committee or a board of elders or a congregation

01:00:38

So that we can take Theological premises premise I and have them decide on what should be taught and what shouldn't

01:00:47

Okay, can you imagine? pastor Luke if You guys called me in to say hey, we didn't ask you a question about something and I said pastor

01:00:56

Luke. I Am under the authority of God and that's enough. Yeah Rail I mean keep at it

01:01:05

Well because Scripture well clearly teaches that you know, there's there's and there's there there's there's an issue in terms of in Scripture We have the example of laying on of hands of somebody laying on of hands

01:01:18

We have the example of authority and submit to those who are an authority over you we have the example of Accountability within the body confessing our sins to one another.

01:01:27

So we'll be healed you have the example in Scripture of None of us are supposed to be sort of Lone Rangers right here and Accountability, why why are we afraid of accountability?

01:01:41

Why should any of us be afraid to be accountable to other brothers and sisters in Christ?

01:01:48

That's a healthy thing that's a that's a God honoring thing that is an integrity thing to say that there is accountability

01:01:56

With someone other than God, I mean think about this the person on the street walking into the strip club, you know

01:02:03

They can make the same claims. I'm accountable to God, baby It's just I'm accountable to God only to him only

01:02:10

God can judge me. I'm accountable to him That doesn't mean a lot and when we look at Yeah, what standard are you talking about like what is your standard for knowing anything right that's the that's what people

01:02:24

I don't know I'm just it's it's lazy. It lacks any sort of Intellect that's that doesn't it's honestly very lazy

01:02:31

Pastor Jason some commentary here on this issue of authority and accountability Do we lose

01:02:40

Jason? Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm no problem. Yeah. Yeah This is

01:02:46

Sean came out of Calvary Chapel with the Moses model, you know, which is basically you know, no one's supposed to touch the

01:02:54

Lord's anointed and You know, he wasn't part of any church When he came here, you know, like I said by his own admission.

01:03:02

He'd know he'd been to evangelical services No more than five times in his life.

01:03:08

He said two or three he thought There's no accountability back before he became a football heretic

01:03:16

The hyperpreterism helped him to say well, yeah, there was discipline there was accountability and all that in the

01:03:22

New Testament, but that all passed away in 70 AD and and it feeds into The mindset of former

01:03:31

Mormons who are used to the bishop calling them up and saying God has called you to teach primary

01:03:36

God has called you to do whatever I say and When you've been controlled that much the temptations to swing the pendulum to the other side and Sean ends up promising them freedom, but bringing them into bondage

01:03:56

Yes, very much so and you know, I think what I what I would rather everyone do here is use this episode as a springboard to get further educated in terms of where Sean McCraney has come from what he believes now the film itself the

01:04:12

Bible versus Sean McCraney is 40 sorry 40 minutes and five seconds 40 minutes long.

01:04:20

It's excellent I mean, it's it's full you guys get a lot of detail and it's Sean McCraney with his own words and at times very contradictory words

01:04:31

Within a space of sometimes the the same Message that he's delivering and so I really want to encourage you all to watch it the

01:04:38

Bible versus Sean McCraney I think it'll be a big help to you. I'm I have been praying for this woman and her husband

01:04:44

I believe at least was a picture of him after them contacting and again it remind me reminded me of the seriousness of the situation in Utah and People who have been influenced by Sean McCraney would encourage you again to watch also the discussion between Sean McCraney and dr

01:04:59

James White on the issue of the Trinity. I think it's very very revealing telling and yeah, just be in prayer for those who were impacted by Sean McCraney and his teachings and Be in prayer for pastor

01:05:12

Jason as he makes more awesome videos like this. You've made some good ones brother. Yeah Thank you. Absolutely.

01:05:18

So I hope to see you soon I'm sure we'll Lord willing be out in Utah at some point this year. Hopefully doing evangelism

01:05:23

I can't wait till the world opens again so we can start engaging people and touching them and seeing their faces their full faces and doing evangelism.

01:05:33

I Don't know that it can live up to the last debate that we had here, but it's true Hoping to have you and James out for a good one.

01:05:41

I We're willing I'm looking forward to it. I really really hope so I was really bummed when we lost that debate with the two atheists in Utah.

01:05:47

So I hope that's gonna happen again All right, Pastor Jason. We had two more two more atheists.

01:05:53

They wanted you're making a joke No, when we lost the debate we were supposed to be doing canceled

01:05:58

With one guy's an atheist. I just thought you were being I guess we lose

01:06:09

But yeah, we're supposed to do a debate with two atheists ones an atheist chaplain is what he calls himself or was working for that On the issue of just morality does morality depend on God.

01:06:18

It's very excited about that one. Yes, it does Yes, thank you My The answer to the question is yes, thank you.

01:06:30

Thank you pastor. Jason for flying me out and getting here Pastor Jason, thank you brother for all you're doing for the kingdom of God.

01:06:37

Love you, brother Thank you. All right, bless you, man, brother. All right everybody. So, you know our long show or so I know this is a big subject we could do much much much more

01:06:47

But we did think that it'd be important to have this conversation We've wanted to do this for a long time But thankful for the providential

01:06:54

Entrance of an email that pointed me to the fact that there are still people under Sean McCraney's teaching and influence and I I did think it was just such a a

01:07:04

An interesting thing to to have a website. That's a church watchdog site

01:07:09

Check my church that is coming from a person who's part of a group led by a man who denies

01:07:15

That there is any standard for church order it's for church government mining for information right to be used against The bride

01:07:26

Could come the answer could come and this is something I hope she truly thinks about the answer could come Well, according to your leader there there are no more relevant standards for the church to follow in terms of church order and government and function

01:07:37

That's all done. Right? So I'm just really sure what you're what are you doing? What's the what's the what's the check my church?

01:07:43

By what standard yeah, because that's gone now I don't have the Bible now to judge how pastors are supposed to do this or that thing, right?

01:07:50

Cuz that's irrelevant according to who Sean McCraney. Yeah, it's irrelevant so I'm not sure what standards you're using as the banner over this watchdog site because Your leader says it's all over with now and and it was interesting

01:08:03

She did send me something a thing about her church doctrinals or her doctrinal statements

01:08:08

And it was interesting if you know and and this is not an arrogant thing in terms of this should be something Christians Understand if you know how the cults and Heretics have twisted words in history.

01:08:21

You can look at a doctrinal statements like she sent and say well I guess that sounds maybe some points that sound all right

01:08:26

But when you know what Sean McCraney teaches and believes you can read between the lines and go no, this is not Orthodoxy I know what your assumptions are behind this also the church

01:08:35

Doctrinal statement she had or her doctrinal statement was missing The resurrection and final judgment and that wasn't that wasn't a part of it

01:08:43

You should have responded back and said only God's my authority. Yeah, I only answered it's it now. It's true, right?

01:08:49

I only answer to God Apparently for some people that's not enough Now when Sean McCraney said that that's that's him saying

01:08:57

It's enough to have only accountability with God That's enough for some people. That's not enough.

01:09:02

I guess what if I were to say that how crazy with me now watch this If they're this is important. I thought

01:09:08

I thought about this like how could I reach her? How could I try to communicate and break through? this man's spell

01:09:15

Because it is in many ways like a spell I thought to myself, you know If there was a legitimate organization that was a part of the

01:09:21

Orthodox Christian faith that had accountability We're like, you know this church.

01:09:27

This organization is connected to these churches. There's accountability So if they come to you and say hey Could we put you on this website that sort of like says what you believe and maybe responds to some challenges or whatever?

01:09:36

I'd probably like who are you with and who are you accountable to just so I know that there's some protection and Well, so that I know, you know what the standard of of whether or not you are a good church

01:09:47

Oh, you're part of you're part of that group of Orthodox Presbyterian churches over there. You're connected to them. No problem

01:09:52

Yeah, what do you want to know? Right? Because I know you're part of the Christian Church I know that you're bound by a common confession.

01:09:57

I know you're under authority. And so I feel absolutely no problem But when a cult group

01:10:04

Messages you Denies biblical Orthodoxy denies a biblical faith and denies that there's any commands any longer that are relevant for church order in church government

01:10:12

And there's no accountability that's where you have to just preach the gospel and say you need you need Christ because they're gonna be the same as the

01:10:19

Mormon Church or the Watchtower messaging us and saying hey, we're doing a church watchdog thing We'd like to know sort of like, you know, how you handle these things.

01:10:25

I would say well first you need to know Christ, right? It's going to be different than you Exactly there there are you know, there are more important things at the moment say it's like, okay if your car

01:10:35

Well, that's not just based off of like, oh, well you said you're a different religion for me. That's based off of a standard

01:10:42

By which we know right what's true? So It's not it's not the same as it's just being like Mormons or liars.

01:10:50

That's my standard, right? That's not the standard that we have to know right that Mormonism is false, right?

01:10:56

So It's not enough like because like you said plenty of people have you know slandered apologia and the ministry and And and it matters if you're just saying like, oh, well, he's just a liar if if you really think

01:11:12

I've said this before but if you really think that like the three of us are just liars then don't Don't watch what we do

01:11:20

Because if we can't can we can't convince you if you don't have a standard other than your own by how you determine what's true?

01:11:25

And false right then I can't I'm not going to meet your standard for truth.

01:11:31

So just Don't worry about it. Yeah Consistency standards equal weights and measures all those things

01:11:38

Well, it's interesting too because when you have a situation like this where you have a member of a cult group Who is a church watchdog group?

01:11:47

Asking questions, it's like, you know It's like we've driven through the desert in the middle of the summer heat here in Arizona, and it's deadly

01:11:54

I mean, it's scary at times. You think like it's 120 degrees out here There's nothing out here for miles. And if this car died out here, it's it could be dangerous, right?

01:12:02

Now imagine your car does break down and you've got to try to figure out the order of steps to get yourself and your family

01:12:08

To safety like your car is ran out of gas. You're in the middle of desert There's no one coming either direction for a ways

01:12:15

Like there's an order of steps to like how do I get this this problem solved and get it going? well, the order of steps is like, you know, you don't start like polishing the

01:12:24

Glass and start, you know cleaning the car out in the desert say we're gonna get this thing. It'll be comfortable and we die

01:12:30

Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna get this just right like start adjusting the mirrors and fixing things and you know Let's the bumpers kind of, you know, let's get this on here real nice It's like when

01:12:37

I first go get some gas, there's an order to this You should probably have some gas to get this thing going first. Well, that's unfortunately that's what some people think like even just Us talking about him denying the

01:12:47

Trinity people think when you're discussing the Trinity That you are like adjusting the bumper right?

01:12:53

No, which means that you you are Calling like if you don't I would just encourage people to have like if you say you're a

01:13:01

Christian You don't if you're not a Christian. You don't need to be one. You don't need to say you're one

01:13:07

I mean, I think you you do need to be one for life purposes But there's no reason if you don't if you deny historic

01:13:16

Christianity What is the obsession in our culture with calling yourself a Christian? Mm -hmm, it's just not necessary good point.

01:13:23

And if you and you just think well, I disagree with everyone about what makes you a Christian it's like well

01:13:30

Okay, like so you're not I don't Bible defines that right? That's the issue, right? Here's the final my final words.

01:13:36

I'll kick it over to Luke You can finish with your final thoughts here The issue is this is that in the New Testament you do clearly see and in the

01:13:43

Old Testament God clearly defines who he is He clearly defines how to know him. He clearly defines what he requires of you

01:13:50

And that's something that Christians can't disagree on to the degree that the Apostle Paul in Galatians chapter 1

01:13:56

Anathematizes a false gospel in other words The gospel is so clearly known by Paul and the early church that they're able to actually

01:14:01

Anathematize and to say condemn anybody who teaches that one because there's a real one We all understand and that one is false

01:14:08

You have Jude in verse 3 saying earnestly contend for the faith, which was once for all

01:14:13

Delivered to the Saints early Christians first century They knew their faith their faith in Jesus so much that they could be told by Jude defend it earnestly

01:14:21

Contend for the faith, which was once for all delivered to the Saints And so it could be done to the degree that the

01:14:28

Apostle John can say to early Christians If somebody denies that Christ has come in the flesh, don't even let him cross the threshold.

01:14:34

You don't let him into your house They don't know Jesus if they deny this they don't know him. So clearly

01:14:39

Jesus is Understood well enough by the early church to say that if somebody denies this essential aspect of Christ and his ministry

01:14:47

They don't know God Don't let them have any teaching influence in your church And of course the final one 2nd

01:14:53

Corinthians chapter 11 The Apostle Paul says he's worried about the church in Corinth because somebody could come preaching another

01:14:59

Jesus Another gospel and another spirit and he'd say and you might put up with them.

01:15:04

He's worried about the church there He's like there's there's the true Christ and I'm worried You'll be influenced with someone preaching a different one.

01:15:11

And so apparently those issues in Scripture are so clearly understood known by early Christians in terms of the essentials and unity of the faith that they can be defended and protected and Now we live in an era where these people can come in and say, you know, we really can't understand this

01:15:28

We really don't know. Maybe Mormons are brothers and sisters in Christ. Maybe maybe this group over there, you know, they're saying they love

01:15:33

Jesus I guess they really do, you know And maybe I can I can tinker around a bit with Scripture in terms of how it defines

01:15:39

Christ and the Spirit of God and the one God Unified eternal and I'll tinker with that and come up with my own thing

01:15:46

You still have to see me as a Christian and stop being so abusive and cowardly you rat bastards you know, so that's

01:15:54

Sorry, I can't get that out of my mind. Sean McRae is like, you know, I love Jason Walsh. I'd know I can call him rat bastard Why would you say that Here's here's the point the faith can be defined

01:16:06

Christians have had disagreements for 2 ,000 years on a host of issues. Where are we unified who God is what

01:16:12

Christ has done how you know him Unified and There are issues we disagree the man listen watch the unity of the faith and then

01:16:21

I am gonna shut up that man I just had on Jason Wallace is Presbyterian. He's a

01:16:26

Presbyterian pastor We're reformed Baptists. We have significant disagreements with him on the issue of baptism.

01:16:32

I think that's probably about it Yeah, you know and on a church government in and and some some differences and details with church government

01:16:40

Still my brother in Christ still believe the same God still believe the same gospel unity, there's there's the essential unity and We have somebody who's very close to us

01:16:51

Who's a Presbyterian and and when do we have the bet when did we have the baptism debate with him? Like it's all unity over practice and everything and the baptism debate happened at a restaurant in Nashville Like at 1130 at night at the tail end of it.

01:17:03

It was like, all right, let's get into it Yeah, and it went on for about 10 minutes It went off about 10 minutes and we just started laughing smiling.

01:17:09

We hugged each other said I love you so much Yeah, and there you go. Yeah, it's true. There you go. So anyway,

01:17:15

I'll let you finish I was just gonna say this, you know, this guy that's defending Sean Keep saying, you know, you just need to love one another the

01:17:21

Bible tells us to love It's like look man, we are the most loving thing you can do is tell someone the truth

01:17:27

By the way earlier. He also called us said we were all not Christians. Oh, that's cute you know it the the

01:17:35

Not loving you would be allowing you to believe something that's not true and allow you to go to hell

01:17:41

Essentially to be separated from God forever. That would be unloving loving would be like hey,

01:17:46

I care for you You're believing in the false gospel. You're believing the false truth the false God You need to turn to Christ and repent so you don't spend eternity

01:17:54

Separated from God forever. So that's love bro. Yeah How do

01:18:00

I speak in the modern vernacular that's love bro, it is loves defined in Scripture Jesus says love God love neighbor two great commandments all the law and the prophets are built upon that So we don't know what it looks like to love your

01:18:11

God and your neighbor Look to the law of God also love is defined in Scripture by the

01:18:16

Spirit of God by the Apostle Paul 1st Corinthians 13 And It rejoices in the truth

01:18:25

It does and so that's that's the key thing in terms of you want to show your love for somebody Of course, you don't want to be abusive

01:18:31

Of course, you don't want to be rude and mean -spirited and nasty And of course, you don't want to call anyone a rat.

01:18:37

Don't call anybody a rat bastard Well, it's John said it's not like I did or I would call him a rat bastard

01:18:42

But what a choice I just didn't get it. I can't just say look

01:18:48

I just want to have at least moment of playfulness here. I'm like very seriously. I remember tuned into that I was watching and he's like, you know,

01:18:53

I call him a rat bastard and I was like Hanging out with the mafia.

01:19:00

I don't know the mafia says that I mean we could we could Be like Christ and call him a whitewash tomb or a brood of vipers or something, you know

01:19:09

But I don't know if that would be very loving either That's right. All right, so encouraging

01:19:16

Final word here a book to get We talked about the Trinity and it's essential

01:19:24

To the Christian faith and so go read the Forgotten Trinity by dr. James White good book Very short book and very helpful bless a lot of people and has been used in a lot of Seminaries and Bible colleges as well as some of the standard reading material because it's very helpful

01:19:38

So go read the Forgotten Trinity join us in Austin next week 2 p .m Austin State Capitol on the 13th 30th.

01:19:45

That's next Tuesday. I'll be there. That's pastor Luke. Peace out. That's joy the girl Oh, I'm the ninja.