March 9, 2023 Show with Gary George on “The Jesus Revolution Movie”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this ninth day of March, 2023.

I am thrilled to have back an old friend of mine going back to the early 1990s, a brother who

I met at the John Bunyan Conference all those years ago in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, and then later in New Ringgold, Pennsylvania, which is where the conference later moved to every year.

And his name is Gary George. He is a conference speaker, and he's the pastor of Sovereign Grace Chapel of Southbridge, Massachusetts.

We're going to be addressing the movie, The Jesus Revolution, its pros and cons, and we're also going to be hearing

Gary's testimony of a pastor saved during that revolution. And we'll also be promoting the 2023

John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennessee. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Gary George.

Gary, did you unmute yourself? Hello, Gary. Okay. Here I am.

Good to be with you. Thank you for that introduction. Looking forward to it. Yes. I am looking forward to it as well.

And before we go into your testimony and a review of the movie,

The Jesus Revolution, tell our listeners about Sovereign Grace Chapel of Southbridge, Massachusetts.

Yes. Sovereign Grace Chapel started off in 1991, approximately, and it was first named

Grace Reformed Baptist Church in 2000. The name changed to Sovereign Grace Chapel.

I started pastoring it in the middle of 1992. So we have been functioning for over 30 years now.

And we're in Southbridge, Massachusetts. We have a plurality of eldership, numbers of deacons, and we carry on with congregational church government.

And the Lord has been blessing us, and we're excited to spread the gospel and teach the truth as we know it from the

Word of God and love the Lord. Amen. If anybody wants to know more about Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts, go to SovereignGraceMA, the abbreviation for Massachusetts, dot org,

SovereignGraceMA .org. Now although you have given your testimony of salvation on the program before, it is very relevant to you being a qualified candidate to do a critical review of the movie,

The Jesus Revolution, because a part of your testimony is the very era in which our

Lord saved you, which was during that period of time in the late 60s, early 70s, that was known as The Jesus Revolution.

I believe it was the New York Times that perhaps, not the New York Times, Time Magazine, I believe, gave it that nickname.

I think that was the cover story in the early 70s with that title.

But, so, let's start with your salvation testimony and include in that any kind of religious atmosphere in which you were raised and the providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself and saved you. Well, first of all, if anyone was saved in that era, they obviously have to be an

Older Person, since, as you said, The Jesus Revolution or The Jesus Movement came on the scene in the late 60s.

For myself, prior to that, I had been born and grew up in an

Albanian Orthodox church. My parents were immigrants. I attended

Sunday school with my older brother who brought me when I was about the age of seven or eight years old.

My mother wanted us to go to church. And so that's all I knew of was Orthodoxy. And I guess you could say

I was somewhat of a regular church attender. And if any of your guests, I mean, your listeners don't know much about Orthodoxy, it would be very similar, outwardly at least, to Catholicism in many ways, with the liturgy being a very fixed order of service that's conducted weekly.

It's about a two -hour -plus service that the priest conducts. Very boring for the most part, and because it was in Albanian when

I was little, I didn't comprehend all the words that were said, but it changed over the course of time.

And of course there are more serious theological differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, but one of the outward things that some people might immediately recognize is that Eastern Orthodox forbid three -dimensional images like statues and all of their icons that they venerate.

They're still guilty of the sin of idolatry, but they venerate images that are not three -dimensional.

Yeah, it's kind of ironic in a way, because their icons are so diligently done.

I didn't know this until I learned it in my late teens about iconography and how it was done, but those that do the drawings or the artistic work for drawing icons are almost monkish.

There's a very serious ascetic posture that they take in their artistic drawings of saints, because they're going to portray a saint of some sort, or an angel,

Michael the Archangel, angel for instance, is one of the icons that is on what is known as the icon screen, which separates where the priest functions in the back prior to his coming out to the congregation.

And I being an altar boy, I had that privilege of being on the other side of the icon screen, which no woman was allowed to go in there.

Even laypersons weren't recommended to go in the back. Just the priest, altar boys, bishop, etc.,

could be in those sacred areas. So yeah, those icons that they draw, they put a lot, a lot of emphasis on the sacredness of them.

And as you say, they are venerated objects and supposedly the tool and the means by which a person is able to draw near to the divine through the, you could say, the medium of an icon.

In fact, if any of our listeners want to find out more about the differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, and the differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and the

Reformation, and that is a nickname for the

Bible, the differences they have from the Holy Scriptures, what Bible -believing

Christians believe and teach, you could go to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio website.

I conducted a fascinating interview in 2018 with Dr. Jack Kinnear, who was on the faculty at the time of Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

And he received his doctorate at an Eastern Orthodox seminary, not because he himself was

Eastern Orthodox or was ecumenical with them, but he wanted to find out more deeply about that religion.

And so his opinion or his understanding has a lot of relevance.

But if you type in the search engine at ironsharpensironradio .com, K -I -N -N, that's

N as in Nancy, E -E -R, K -I -N -N -E -E -R, that is the only interview

I conducted with Dr. Kinnear, and that will come up. Dr. Jack Kinnear on Eastern Orthodoxy, what separates it from Rome and the

Reformation from April 16th, 2018. But anyway, so pick up where you left off there as far as your conversion story.

Let me just throw something in there that you and I think your audience of listeners might find interesting. About a dozen years ago,

I had a colloquium set up where I invited an Orthodox priest, a

Catholic theologian, and an evangelist, Rob Zins. Now, was this in a bar? Did this take place in a bar?

I'm only kidding. It sounds like this set up for a joke. I'm sorry.

Yeah, I know you're a joker. But anyway, the point of it was, the title that I gave to the colloquium was,

Where is the True Church? So each of those representatives, the Orthodox priest, the

Catholic theologian, and Rob Zins, who was representing historic, you know,

Protestant Reformation or evangelicalism, you could say in a general way, they each gave 55 -minute presentations on why they believed where the true church was.

It was a very interesting colloquium. I wish I had tapes and recordings and so on that I could provide to your listening audience.

They would find it super interesting. But anyway, getting back to my story. So I grew up Orthodox, just like I suppose you,

Chris, who grew up in Catholicism. I never heard the word, and maybe you did, but I never heard the word born again or being saved.

Those are foreign vocabulary words to me. I did not either until my brother became a born -again believer when

I was a teenager. So what caught my interest, and this is what I want to lead into in regards to the

Jesus movement or the Jesus revolution. I went to a prep school, and our history teacher that I was in the class of required us students to have to order either

Time magazine or Newsweek magazine. So I believe it was Newsweek that I had ordered because he wanted to keep us up on current events, and there was a brief article in the back of the magazine about these

Jesus freaks in California who were going to parking lots of shoppers at supermarkets and telling them about Jesus.

And I was really scratching my head, and I said, what is that all about, talking about Jesus? Well, anyway, that sort of piqued my interest, and then

I was in line to go to a Jesuit -run college on a college sports scholarship, football and baseball.

It was Holy Cross College, and during that summer,

I caught in the newspaper that the head of the psychology department was going to be speaking at a charismatic camp, and he was going to be talking about Jesus.

And there was some mention about a coffeehouse. It was called the Charisma Coffeehouse, which was a charismatic group, and I had no idea what that was all about.

So I happened to meet a girl who told me that she goes to it, and I said, would you mind inviting me to go?

I'd like to go and see what that's all about. So I went, and this was my first exposure,

I guess you could say, to born -again Christianity. And it was a very upbeat coffeehouse with the music playing, prayer, raising of hands,

Jesus, Jesus, praise the Lord, praise the Lord. My first reaction was, these people are nuts.

What am I doing here? They're off their rocker. I mean, what is this Jesus thing all about? But as time went on in the course of that evening,

I started to say, hey, there's got to be something about this that's real. These people are talking about Jesus like they know

Him or He knows them, and they have this sort of personal relationship with each other that really impressed me.

And then I did go to that camp meeting that the professor who was the chaplain, assistant chaplain at the college that I was going to go to at Holy Cross College, I introduced myself to him and found out that he was involved with the

Catholic charismatic renewal that took place in Notre Dame roughly in 1967.

So he had a leaning towards, you know, the Jesus movement in that sense.

So this was my first exposure, and Chris, I think you can appreciate it because you came out of what we would call a dead church, a non -gospel preaching, quote, church, where we never heard words about new birth, conversion, conviction of sin, hell, judgment, the blood of Christ, atonement, that kind of language was very straight, would have been very strange to us.

But once we got exposed to it, all of a sudden, it's like, wow, what is this all about? I never heard this stuff before.

But I can say, though, that the older nuns who were my schoolteachers in parochial school did mention hell, the younger nuns and priests, because I was just on the heels of the ending of Vatican II or the completion,

I should say, it didn't end, it completed. And so there was a whole new modern

Catholicism that made up the dominant way I was raised and the experience

I had in church with folk masses and them actually using

Beatles music in the church with a different meaning in their minds, like, let it be.

In those times of darkness, Mother Mary comes to me speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

They actually sang that in the mass. But anyway, this is not my story. It's yours.

Yeah. So that summer, which would have been the summer of 71 now, which was going to be my freshman year of going to college, this is when

I got introduced to this charismatic brand of Christianity that at least they talked about Jesus and people's lives were being changed.

And a lot of these people in the coffeehouse had long hair. They were definitely in the hippie mode and era, and they definitely displayed it, the way they looked, the way they talked, the way they acted.

And some of them had been converted in California, came to the

Eastern part. By the way, I grew up in Worcester, Massachusetts, which is the second most populated city in New England.

So anyway, going to the college that summer, I had gone on a retreat with the

Orthodox Church as a teenager, and we went to a monastery in New Canaan, Connecticut.

And at this retreat, the teenagers had an opportunity to meet with the monks and ask questions that we wanted to, to the monks.

Well, I had question after question after question. I was so irritating to the other teenagers that one of the teenagers gave me an elbow in the ribs and said, just so that I could hear, he said,

Hey, Gary, why don't you just go get a Bible? All the answers are in it. And he said it sarcastically, like, come on, that's enough.

Go get a Bible. You'll get the answers there. Well, little did he know that that was a life changing saying.

He created such an interest, or God used that to create such an interest that I couldn't wait to get off the bus back in Worcester.

I went immediately downtown. I went into a religious bookstore that I believe was

Catholic, and I said, Hi, I would like to buy a Bible. I don't know anything about Bibles, but could you just set me up with a

Bible? Well, they ended up giving me a leatherback revised version. The revised standard version didn't come out till like 1991.

They gave me a revised version. So here I am with my Bible for the first time. And now what do

I do with it? I had no one guiding me or instructing me. I was totally in the

Lord's hands. And I believe God was working in me because it was the spiritual interest that I didn't have before, but it was being created in me.

Like it says in Philippians 1, 6, he that has begun a good work in you. And I want to say that the work had begun and was working in me.

So here I am with my Bible. And I decided, I guess, just flipping through pages to start at the gospel of Matthew.

As you know, most Bibles begin with this is the testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So I started there in Matthew. I'm reading along until I came to chapter six, verse 19, lay not up for yourselves treasures on earth, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, for where your treasure is and so on.

Well, that verse right there stopped me in my tracks and made me think about the afterlife, something that I had not given much thought to at all.

And I thought, wow, Jesus is saying to have treasures in heaven.

I never thought of heaven or even hell for that matter, basically. And I have to say that from that day on,

I could not get Jesus out of my mind. I would wake up thinking about Jesus.

And I said to myself, where did this come from? Why am I thinking about Jesus all the time?

Where did this come from? I wasn't able to pinpoint it, but I found myself constantly desiring spiritual things.

I kept reading the Bible. It took me three years, but I read through the whole Bible, didn't understand a lot of it.

Some I did, some I didn't. You could say I had like, remember when Jesus in Mark chapter eight, he touches the blind man and he says, what do you see?

He says, I see men like trees. Well, that's what my life was like during the

Jesus revolution period, Jesus movement. I was seeing men as trees. I felt some inspiration, some divine experience in my life of the divine.

And I started buying, for instance, the one way Jesus signs, I put it on my

Volkswagen window. I bought a bumper sticker and put it on my bumper that said, things go better with Jesus, which was taken from the old commercial that Coca -Cola had that used to say things go better with Coca -Cola.

I put that on the back of my Volkswagen Beetle on the bumper. I wore a cross around my neck.

Jesus Christ Superstar came out around that time. And again, I don't have any theological grounding.

So anything about Jesus was exciting. Godspell, I went to that in Boston. I went to see the

Jesus Christ Superstar movie. Billy Graham, the Crusades were at a hype at that point.

They were peaking out in the early 70s and through the 70s. And boy, when

Billy Graham was coming on, I was interested to listen to that. And I started taking on some of the rhetoric of born again

Christianity. And I claimed myself to have been born again. And I was using that language.

And remember, the late great planet Earth came out, I believe, around 71, somewhere in that time period of Hal Lindsey's.

I heard about it. I got a hold of that. I got infatuated with this rapture theory and the second coming and Hal Lindsey pushing that we're in the end time.

So that was also stimulating me. The terminology, the

Jesus freaks, the Jesus people, of course, we were just coming out of Vietnam, the charismatic renewal in the

Roman Catholic Church. And then you had new converts like Johnny Cash, Eric Clapton.

You had Paul Stuckey from the Peter, Paul and Mary group. Eric, Eric Clampton made it a profession of faith in Christ.

Yeah, it's in writing. You can see it. Pat Boone, of course, was claiming to be born again.

As a matter of fact, I believe it was in 72 or 71. I read that he had baptized 200 people in his private swimming pool of his house in just six months or something like that.

Wow. You had the cross and the switchblade with David Wilkerson and that whole thing.

I mean, a lot of things were going on. Teen challenge, intervarsity, Christian fellowship, coffee houses were springing up everywhere.

That is Christian coffee houses. You had now what comes from that, this movement of the

Jesus revolution was a lot of independency. A lot of independent churches started to spring up.

Music became a big medium of the Jesus movement. A lot of people, especially young people, were taken up with a lot of the music that had very weak theology, but catchy tunes.

You know, I know you can remember some of those Maranatha songs and some of those simple songs like,

In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk. And you're going through all of these antics, you're jumping and leaping and praising

God. And those kinds of things were very impressive and affected a lot of people.

And the Jesus movement was spreading across the country. I think we can say safely that in San Francisco, Ashbury was probably one of the early centers of where the hippie

Jesus revolution movement began. And I think we'll talk about the movie a little bit later, but the movie does portray, rightly so, that California was the area where and that's where a lot of hippies, of course, migrated to because it was near the ocean and it was just a hip place to go in America at that time.

In fact, pick up right where you left off when we come back from our first break.

And if anybody would like to send in a question to Gary George, not only about his conversion testimony, his salvation testimony, but also about the movie, the

Jesus Revolution, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Gary George right after these messages from our sponsors.

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If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Gary George, who is a conference speaker and pastor of Sovereign Grace Chapel of Southbridge, Massachusetts.

We are discussing the Jesus Revolution movie, its pros and cons. And right now we are in the middle of a testimony of Pastor Gary George, who was saved during that Jesus Revolution.

If you have a question for Pastor Gary, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. Uh, Pastor Gary, uh, when you were saved during this era, uh, were many of your

Christian brothers and sisters with whom you shared fellowship, hippies, uh, in the movie, there seems to be nothing but a sharp contrast between those that were

Christian hippies and those that were, uh, more rigid fundamentalist type

Christians. There didn't seem to be anybody in between, uh, represented in that movie. Other than of course, the fact that the hippie movement was sharply divided itself.

It had those that were drug addicts and, uh, who idolized

Timothy Leary and, and other gurus, uh, where drug abuse was a main sacrament, if you will, of, of, of those hippies.

And of course you have the hippies that were, uh, brought to Christ who came out of that, uh, wing of the hippies, if you will.

So what, what was your experience in regard to the actual hippies? Were you a hippie, uh, were your friends hippies and that kind of a thing?

Well, because I was a jock, jocks weren't into the hippie movement.

Our coaches would not allow us to have been hippies, uh, with a long hair, et cetera, being a jock, an athlete, uh, drugs weren't appealing to us.

It was looked at as something frowned on and, uh, not that some didn't use it, but I myself never got into the drug scene.

Very, very little. Um, I was more on the alcohol side and this is what was so difficult during the.

My Jesus movement period from 71 to 75, which was the climax of, you could say this, uh, this

Roman seven in a way where the things that I wanted to do, I couldn't do, and I was doing the things

I didn't want to do and, and so on. And I didn't get into Romans eight. If I can use that portion that way until 75, but I want to say something that, uh,

I think God used in a, in a very powerful way and how we use the scriptures during this era,

I found myself going more frequently to this charismatic coffee house.

Um, again, I, I began to take on the, uh, the cloak of being a

Christian. Uh, I was reading the Bible. I was going to these charismatic meetings.

I never spoke in tongues. It never impressed me. It always seemed bizarre and foolish and unnecessary.

I never saw anything really profitable come out of it in my experience with it. Nevertheless, I attended because I saw that these people seem to be sincere.

As I look back now, I realized it was pure Arminianism and Pentecostalism, which seems to be the pretty much the whole

Jesus movement you could say was almost exclusively charismatic in nature.

Well, didn't know anything. Like I said, at that time, I didn't know anything better and to make it more confusing was

I was in the, I was a theology student in a Roman Jesuit run,

Roman Catholic liberal arts college. So I'm taking courses, uh, in the college that they were prescribing and they were really the higher critical movement type courses that I was taking, which really threw a monkey wrench into my understanding of the

Bible and the credibility and the dependability of the scriptures. I was taught that, uh,

Adam wasn't a real character, that the Red Sea really didn't open the way the Bible described it.

Jonah being swallowed, uh, by the fish was inaccurate.

Uh, it was just a fairy tale. So I, again, I didn't have the defenses. I wasn't able to apologetically, uh, object to these things.

I mean, I'm being taught by, you know, Jesuit professors. I'm assuming that what they're teaching is correct.

So, um, there was a lot of confusion. I'm in a charismatic, I'm still

Eastern Orthodox, by the way. I'm a Sunday school teacher. I'm pursuing maybe a possibility of becoming a priest in the future.

So there was a lot on my plate. There was a number of different hats that I was wearing. Well, on this one occasion on Memorial weekend, this charismatic coffee host had told everybody to come downtown.

And we were going to be a part of the march that was going to go down main street, uh, with these banners that we were going to hold.

Actually, they were like sandwich boards on poles and, and, and, and we met at a certain corner and the leader of our group was just handing out these, these boards, uh, that you held up above your head and then had a

Bible verse on it. Well, the Bible verse that was given to me, uh, said this, he that believes on the sun has everlasting life.

That was John 3 36, the first part of the verse. That's all that the sign could hold.

So I'm with the group. We're marching down main street. One of the individuals was carrying a wooden cross falling down from time to time, like he was

Jesus fatigued and unable to continue. He had like, you know, blood marks, so to speak on his face with the crown of thorns around his head.

Uh, and we're playing music at the same time was going on. Well, anyway, we went, we marched to this, to the city hall and behind it, we all stood while the, the programs were being presented and then it ended.

And we all had to go back our own ways to our cars, wherever we were. It had ended. Well, I still got this sign in my hand.

I'm not with anybody else. I'm walking down main street back towards my car. And I said, well, since I have the sign,

I might as well hold it up. Well, about 50 feet before me, some drunk came out of a bar room and he started walking towards me.

And when he got within about 15 feet of me, he stopped and he was looking at what

I held above my head. And he, and I stopped too, so that he could read it.

And he read it out loud enough for me to hear it. And he read, he that believes on the sun has everlasting life.

And his eyes went from the top of the sign, crawling right down and looked at me right in the eyes and said, do you believe that?

And little did he know that that was a convicting, very convicting statement that he made.

And I said to myself, I don't have everlasting life. I don't know that I have this.

I'm hypocritical. Well, I ended up taking that sign. I drove it up to Holy cross college and I planted it right at the security gate.

When you go into the campus and it happened to be graduation weekend, because I wanted people to see it, even though I myself was convicted by it and didn't claim that I had everlasting life,

I didn't have that assurance and, and, and as my life was progressing, I felt more and more guilt over my sins,

I was living a double life, I would go down Cape Cod potty at night, and then in the morning,

I'm on the beach with a Bible and the girls and the guys that I was partying with the night before, they're laughing at me reading the

Bible. So this sort of schizophrenic sort of Jesus and world, and I was definitely being torn in two different directions.

I was like, I like, I like to use the end of Romans seven as very applicable to me in that I, oh, wretched man that I am, who's going to deliver me from this tabernacle of death.

And then as time progressed, I got so heavily convicted.

I cried out to the Lord. I said, Lord, I am a hypocrite. I wear a cross around my neck.

I have Jesus pictures on my, on my t -shirts, a

Jesus Christ superstar picture on the back of my t -shirt. And all of these signs, I said, but Lord, I don't know you.

I'm not saved. I'm not right with you. Please help me, deliver me, show me a church or truth that I have not yet imbibed, and shortly after that, within days,

I ended up going downtown to get my hair cut, and I bumped into a group of evangelicals who were doing evangelism.

And they did it in a way that was very unique. Inside the mall, there was this particular day, they had all kinds of different organizations, the

Red Cross and the women's groups and all sorts of different organizations, and this church had got permission to have a booth.

And they had this old Mickey Mouse kind of computer that above it, it said, test your knowledge of the

Bible, a big sign. I said, wow, that's cool. So I went by and I took the test and my test results were that I got eight out of the 10 questions correct, and we discussed them.

And I honestly said to the person who happened to be an elder in a Plymouth Brethren church, his name was

Cecil Batstone, and I said to him, I called myself, I said, I'm a carnal

Christian. I'm not living as I should be. I need a church where I can hear the word.

I knew that the Albanian Orthodox Church wasn't cutting it. I felt confused with the charismatics.

Something wasn't ringing right there. And so eventually, I was invited.

I went to one of their Bible studies and then a follow up, a home little gathering where the brother had me, my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife and two friends, we were invited over to his home and he gave us all

Bibles and I was the only one that had any familiarity with the Bible of the five of us.

He was turning to passages and he began at Romans chapter three, verse 10. There's none righteous. No, not one.

There's none that understand. He went down the whole thing and wound it up in verse 23, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

And then he said, this is the photograph of God, of us. This is what we look like in God's sight.

What a wonderful way to summarize that portion of Romans three. This is God's photograph of us.

And then he had us turn to Romans 6, 23, the wages of sin is death. Gift of God is eternal life.

Well, right there, brother Chris is when I came to a guilt feeling that I deserve to go to hell.

I never believed that before or never thought that before, never entertained that idea, but I felt totally guilt ridden and hell bound and worthy of eternal destruction.

Then he says, now let's turn to Isaiah 53 and we're going to read verse five.

While he said that he was helping the others locate Isaiah 53. Meanwhile, I knew the

Bible well enough that I could turn to it. So I turned to Isaiah 53 and I'm reading on my own verse five, but he was wounded for our transgressions.

He was bruised for our iniquities and the chastisement of our peace was upon him. And with his stripes, we're healed immediately.

Brother Chris, heaven came down and glory filled my soul. I saw by grace, the

Lord illuminated that passage and it dawned on me miraculously that Jesus died substitutionally for me personally.

I could not get over it. I said to myself, you dumb bell, you had read that.

You had read that passage many, many times before, and I had never seen the depth and truth of that for myself personally until that moment.

So meanwhile, this, the elder doing his evangelistic thing was trying to show the others about the personal substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

In fact, we'll pick, we'll pick up right where you left off there. Cause we have to go to our, we have to go to our midday break.

This is the longer than normal break folks, as always in the middle of the show.

So please be patient with us. Send in your questions to Gary George, to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Also try to write down as much of the contact information for as many of our advertisers as possible so that you could either purchase their products, use their services, visit their churches, or at the very least thank them for sponsoring

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We cannot exist folks without the financial support of our advertisers.

So please, at the very least thank them. If indeed you love the show and are grateful for their support.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com is the email address for questions for Gary George and write down as much of the contact information for our advertisers as possible so that you could either patronize them or thank them.

For keeping us on the air, we're going to be right back after these messages. So don't go away.

James White of Altenbega ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 national conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Votie Balcom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Annual, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 ministry.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org that's g3min .org and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd, the

G3 national conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

The Prince of Preachers, Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, growing a beard is a habit most natural, scriptural, manly, and beneficial.

Grace and peace to all the Iron Sharpens Iron listeners. This is Tony with thestandardbeardcare .com.

That's right, thestandardbeardcare .com is a Christ exalting, better known, and simple name in beard care.

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check out the vast array of all natural handcrafted products to make that beard scriptural, manly, and beneficial.

And when you do so, you will help to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. When you use the promo code

IRON at checkout, you will receive free shipping to anywhere in the lower 48, and 10 % of your donations will go back to Chris Arnson and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

So head over to thestandardbeardcare .com, where the standard is the standard.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

That's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.

If you're near retirement or thinking about retiring, you probably have questions. How do you make your savings last?

How much should you take out and when? You're ready for retirement, but are your finances?

Art Amundsen, an Edward Jones financial advisor, can help you build a strategy to help make sure your finances keep up with your long -term needs.

Do what it takes to get there. Now it's time to make the most of retirement. Visit edwardjones .com.

That's edwardjones .com, or call 717 -258 -4688.

717 -258 -4688. We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are forever grateful for the generous financial support of Art Amundsen, Edward Jones financial advisor in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Call 717 -258 -4688 today. Hello, my name is

Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show, like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnson has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We're dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a reformed

Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith, as well as seasoned believers. From Keech's Catechism and the

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio, and thanks for listening. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com,

or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you love

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

Patafuoco, demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody's ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth Love Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back truth to the world. We use the treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

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That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And always remember folks to make solid -ground -books .com

your very first stop for all your gift giving needs. They bring back into print and also publish for the first time nothing but the finest in Christian literature dating back to the

Protestant Reformation and extending forward to our current day including such modern day authors as Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. At solid -ground -books .com visit them frequently, purchase generously, always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arntzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to Gary George, our guest today and not only the conclusion of his testimony but also a review of the

Jesus Revolution movie, I have a couple of more important comments to make.

First of all, if you love the show and you don't want it to disappear folks, I'm urging you please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

And if you prefer snail mail, sending in a physical check to a physical address, there will be a physical address that also appears on the screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

If you want to advertise, whether it's your church, parachurch ministry, your business, your private professional practice like a law firm or medical firm, or if you just want to promote a special event you're having, well, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what

I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

So send me an email to chrisarmsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Also, please always remember,

I never want anybody in our audience giving less money than you normally give to your own local church where you are a member on the

Lord's day. Please don't carve in or cut into the money that you have set aside for your

Lord's day giving to the church where you are a member in order to bless us. Never do that. Also, if you are really struggling to survive and make ends meet, wait until you are financially stable and back on your feet before you send

Iron Trip and Zion Radio a gift. Those two things are commands of God and scripture providing for your church and family.

Providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is obviously not a command of God, but if you love the show, you have extra money above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and family.

You have extra money collecting interest in the bank, extra money for benevolent, recreational and trivial purposes, and you love the show and you don't want it to disappear.

Please go to Iron Trip and Zion radio .com. Click support, then click, click to donate now.

Also, I want to remind our listeners that the next Iron Trip and Zion Radio free pastor's luncheon is coming up on Thursday, April 13th at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. It features two guest speakers, William Webster, who is a

Banner of Truth author and pastor in Battleground, Washington, and also Reverend David T.

King, who is a co -author with William Webster and an associate pastor of Christ Church in Katy, Texas.

And not only are you going to hear them speak for free and enjoy a meal for free and share a wonderful time of fellowship for free, you're going to be leaving with a very heavy sack of brand new books personally selected by me from dozens of publishers,

Christian publishers, all over the United States and the United Kingdom, and everything is free of charge, no ulterior motive.

You could register by sending me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line.

Three days, the three days following that, I am also going to be hosting a three -day

Bible conference at a different church, Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

The theme that Dr. Webster and Reverend King will be speaking on at that three -day conference will be the gospel removed by Rome, rescued by the reformers, and rejected by modern evangelicals.

If you'd like to attend that three -day free conference, send me an email as well, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and put conference in the subject line. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Sovereign Grace Chapel of Southbridge, Massachusetts, no matter where on the planet

Earth you live, I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I've helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, that may be you, too, if you are spiritually homeless, as it were.

So, if you are in need of a good, solid church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put

I Need a Church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send an email to Gary George on the

Jesus Revolution movie, that is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And just to finalize your salvation testimony, you were at a Bible study, you were really profoundly affected by Isaiah 53, and you said that the man leading the study was helping people find that text, and if you could just wrap up the salvation testimony.

So, at that moment, Chris, from the illumination of verse 5 by the Holy Spirit, I believe for sure that I came to understand by faith that Christ died as my substitute.

And when he was trying to impress upon the others the need to read that passage and to believe it, and they were hesitant,

I got out of my chair and I stood up, and I guess you could say

I became an instant preacher. And I said, hey, can't you see it? Can't you see that Jesus died for you?

That's the way I put it, because it was so clear to me, I said, why don't you see it?

Well, I didn't, again, understand the call. Those who he predestinated, then he called.

I was effectually called right there in a way that clarified my period of only seeing men like trees,

I began to see clearly now. And I didn't know what hit me exactly, because that night, which

I thought was going to be a normal Saturday night, I went and got involved in a basketball game in a league that I played in at the

YMCA. Then I went and shot pool. And then as we always did and I did, the end of the night we headed to the club.

And the name of this club was called the Last Chance Saloon, literally, the Last Chance Saloon.

I got in there and I said, what am I doing here? I felt like a fish out of water.

I said to myself, this is amazing. This has always been like my second home. But I couldn't dance.

I couldn't drink. I just wanted to get out of there. And I went and I told my girlfriend that night that I got saved.

I said, I want to serve Jesus the rest of my life. I told her I sold my dance shoes. I sold my flower shirt.

I said, I'm all in for Jesus right now. And that's when I really, as the scripture teaches us, justification brings sanctification.

And the sanctification process really was heightened and became a reality that was overpowering.

And I can really quote Romans 6, 14 with truth. Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace.

For that period of time, those three years during the Jesus movement. And it definitely impacted me.

And I thank God for that movement because I never heard before about having a personal relationship with Jesus and Jesus just being actively involved in someone's life.

It became a reality to me in the fullest sense after that Isaiah 53 passage became a reality to me.

So when the Jesus movie was coming out, I said, wow, I'd love to see that because it would bring me back to that era when

I believe the Lord had begun a work in me. So getting to the movie,

I went with high expectations and I left. Somewhat disappointed.

Tell us about the positive things first, and then we'll conclude with the critical examination, the cons, as it were.

OK, that's a good point. You know, praise God that a movie like this is being shown in theaters throughout the country about Jesus and Jesus impressing a hippie generation and the generation of the late and early late 60s, early 70s.

And people were coming to life, coming out of the drug scene. And I believe there was real

Holy Spirit conversions that were taking place around the country,

California, but it hit many other states, came to New England. There were rallies,

Jesus rallies that I was a part of the movie Thief in the Night. I remember getting a hold of it, showing it at the college.

I had a charismatic leader who was a part of the Jesus movement there speaking on the behalf of the movie and answering questions and so forth.

So that brought me back to those days when, yes, these hippies and people that were just searching and looking for truth ended up in many cases and thousands and thousands of cases of real conversion experiences.

And I think the movie did at least give that profile. So I thank

God for that. And I really felt at the conclusion of it, like I wanted to say,

Lord, do it again. May the spirit blow across the country and in the hearts of many people.

And may we be all raised up as Jesus people in speaking boldly, faithfully.

And now that we might be more like myself, more mature, a reader of the word, a memorizer of the scripture, a lover of the gospel.

May we all be more upright and outgoing with the gospel in natural ways that are not odd and peculiar, but they're bold and faithful to the gospel.

And I think that's one of the kind of the nice things about the Jesus movement. They were like everyday people talking to everyday people.

And so people could relate to them. And I think sometimes we're too stiff, we're too formal, and we can't condescend to men of lower state.

And I think that's one of the ways in which we are defecting the efficacy of gospel power in preaching and teaching and presenting the word, because we do it in sort of a stiff fashion that causes some uncomfortability with our audience that we speak to.

So, yes, the movie, I'm just praising God that it's out there. It makes me think about those days and I want to relive them in lots of ways.

So I have a lot of thanks to God for that movie from that standpoint. And I'm assuming since Greg Laurie, who is a very prominent

Christian radio evangelist and pastor and author, who is a central figure in this movie, it could be really,

I think, correctly called an autobiography of Greg Laurie, since he is promoting this,

I'm assuming that it's a reasonably accurate portrayal of him and the beginnings of the

Calvary Chapel movement that Pastor Chuck Smith and Lonnie Frisbee were both instrumental in starting that has been used of God to bring many, many, many people, many lost people to Christ.

And in spite of the fact that many within the Calvary Chapel movement are very opposed to some of the core teachings that my guests and I love and cherish, the doctrines of sovereign grace, known as Calvinism and reformed theology, in spite of the fact that our

Calvary Chapel brethren, many of them, not all, but many of them are vehemently opposed to these things,

I could still thank God that he uses them and still does to this day to proclaim the gospel and draw the lost to salvation.

Now, I know that there will be Calvinists listening who are upset that I'm giving some kind of a positive plug to the

Calvary Chapels, but hey, I mean, they are being used of God in spite of any differences with us.

In fact, we were speaking about the serious, in fact, even damning heretical teachings of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy earlier.

The Calvary Chapel movement seems to be one of the very few allies that we who are reformed have today that are speaking out against these heresies.

Most evangelicals seem to shy away from that whole subject or even on the opposite end of the spectrum enthusiastically embrace everyone from those false religions as brothers and sisters in Christ.

So that's another positive thing about the Calvary Chapel movement. And do you have anything to add to that?

Yeah, I think you're right on, Chris, when you say that it was almost like an autobiography about Calvary Chapel and whatnot, that was kind of a disappointment.

I was hoping that it would be more generic and cover more of the Jesus Revolution, like the

Time Magazine article that came out in June 1971, but it was also a

Jesus movie, Jesus Revolution movie that came out in 1972. And I would recommend that your audience to get a better picture of really the

Jesus Revolution nationwide. You would be better off watching that than the one that's out in the theaters today.

So, yeah, our theologies do clash, especially,

I mean, certainly Arminian, and it comes out if you're Calvinistically oriented, you would obviously pick it up.

It comes across as sort of a little bit on the easy believism side. You don't hear the word repentance, conviction of sin, hell, judgment, little about the blood.

I was hoping there was going to be more gospel preaching in the movie itself, because obviously it was going to draw lots of people to come to the theater.

This was a major production. It's actually drawn already over 30 million dollars of revenue.

So it has been, you could say, successful from a marketing standpoint.

And I'm glad for that, which shows that lots of people are going. And hopefully there's more awareness about Jesus than before they went to the movie, people at least at that stage.

I want to just, I just wanted to quickly add that even though the movie doesn't depict sermons about repentance and the need for repentance and so forth, the

Calvary Chapel folks that I have heard on the radio, especially since I worked for a

Salem media affiliate in New York, WMCA, for 15 years, that aired people like Raul Reese and others, they did preach the need of repentance.

And at least the men that I heard repudiated as false teaching the idea that you could just raise your hand at a

Bible conference or at a church service or at a Bible camp when you're a child and, or a crusade or whatever, and recite a prayer and you'd had nothing to worry about.

You could live like the devil for the rest of your life. They did, I've heard a number of times them repudiate that as false.

But unfortunately, Raul Reese attributed that false teaching to Calvinism. Because, because he wrongly understood our belief of perseverance and preservation of the saints, that a true believer could not lose your salvation.

He obviously had no clue what that meant and never read a Calvinist in his life or a

Puritan in his life, because obviously Calvinism has never been identified as a religious system that condoned a life of total surrender to sin where salvation could be expected.

But anyway, are you there, Gary? I'm hearing dead silence on my end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're on a roll, brother.

You have a lot to say. And you're one of the few hosts that can say more than the one you're interviewing, but go ahead.

No, I just wanted to make sure that I don't want to misrepresent

Calvary Chapels, because not only because I have friends in the Calvary Chapel movement, but also, more importantly, we shouldn't be misrepresenting anybody.

I'm not saying that you misrepresented them, I'm saying that the movie may have in that regard.

Yeah, and I guess if I was a Calvary Chapel person, I might have been disappointed.

And I would like to give you an example in your list as an example of where there is definitely a misleading of the audience about the doctrine of salvation.

How is one born again? And Chris, if you could, would you mind just playing a short 40 -second, 50 -second clip?

Could you play that for everybody? Yes, I will. Here it goes. Jesus Christ willingly went to the cross and died, he gave his life, he became a sacrifice for all of us here, so that we might be forgiven of our sins, that we might be reborn of water and the spirit.

That's why we're going down to the ocean this weekend. So obviously you're referring to the fact that it seemed as if Lonnie Frisbee, who was the real -life character being portrayed in the movie, when he was saying that we're going to the ocean to be born of water and the spirit, gave the idea that the baptism was the thing that was saving them.

Yes. And that is not even a Calvary Chapel teaching, as far as I am understanding. Exactly.

And that's why I would say that if I was a Calvary Chapel pastor or a spokesman for it,

I would say, boy, that was a bad misrepresentation. The movie does make a lot out of baptism, and it appears to be very glorious.

You got hundreds of people on the shore watching it, hundreds of people getting baptized, there's celebration, there's a hype and excitement.

You know, it seems to be like, wow, this is the climax. Come on in and get yourself baptized.

And how this is highlighted, too, and how I think it comes across as teaching—and

I know they don't believe in baptismal regeneration, but there's an insinuation there when

Lonnie Frisbee says, let's go down to the water, and he had used the verse of John 3, 5, except a man be born of water in the spirit.

So he uses the water as being the agent or an agent that contributes or is involved in the born -again experience.

And no sound Calvary Chapel preacher or teacher would advocate that.

Yes, and of course, there's also something that exists in the modern evangelical world where there is a downplaying of the seriousness and importance of baptism, where it's like, ah, do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want, kind of attitude, just because of the fact that we know, especially as Reformed Christians, we know that this does not contribute in any way, shape, or form to actually becoming regenerate, but it is a command of Christ that must be obeyed.

I don't mean must be obeyed to be saved, but there is never an option on whether or not we are to obey a commandment of God.

Absolutely, and there is confusion, though. I don't know if you yourself have asked anybody, you know, when did you get saved?

Have you ever heard people say, well, I was baptized at such and such a time?

So there's this misconception, even among genuine Christians, about conversion, and baptism gets confused with conversion.

You know, I'd like to say that you can't be—and I say this when I have baptismal services—that you can't be baptized in water until you've been baptized in the

Spirit, and you can't be baptized unless you've first been circumcised, that is, spiritually.

You can't be baptized unless you've been justified. Baptism doesn't make you a

Christian, it mocks you as a Christian. Amen, and you want to emphasize the circumcision of the heart is a spiritual thing.

Yes, thank you, and I know you know what I'm talking about, I hope your audience does. Thanks for clarifying that.

Another one, people aren't baptized to be saved, but are baptized because they are saved.

In fact, you're not going to want to be baptized in a true sense.

Obviously, there are false converts that want to be baptized for different reasons. They want to be religious, they want to show off this religiosity to those witnessing it.

But in a true sense of surrendering to Christ, you're not going to want that unless you are already saved.

Well, if you're not rightly taught, you don't know what baptism is going to do for you. In a

Bible study that we had this morning on the subject of baptism came up, and one of the sisters shared with us that she was at a baptism with three legitimate candidates, three people who had a credible conversion experience that was satisfactory to the baptizer, the pastor.

They went down, an audience of people came, and after the three were baptized, the pastor unwisely said, does anybody else want to get baptized?

And 23 people out of that audience of people listening and watching volunteered themselves to go into the water to get baptized.

What? How confusing that is. Now, getting back to the movie, Chris, and I know you want your audience to hear this because it really does amplify the teaching that I think came out of the movie that's misleading.

Greg Laurie himself in the movie is, he has a troubled life.

His mother's been married seven times. She's an alcoholic. He is lost in his relationship with his father.

A lot of focus is on Greg Laurie and his life, and he meets the hippies and he sees some of them being transformed and they sort of draw him first into the hippie movement with the drugs and so on.

And then the ones that get converted, one of them becomes his wife later, his girlfriend.

She got converted. She got him to start attending Calvary Chapel. He's still musing over the whole thing, has some uncertainties about it.

He goes to the to the waters where everybody's getting baptized. And his girlfriend is now goes into the water to get baptized by Lonnie Frisbee.

And after she gets baptized, Greg Laurie is watching her get baptized on the shoreline.

And then Lonnie Frisbee looks at Greg Laurie and says, OK, you're next. And he sort of was stunned by the invitation.

He walks out to Lonnie Frisbee in the water. He's he's waist deep in it.

And he says, I'm so glad you came. He says, I knew you would come. And again, here's this like gospel invitation.

And he said a few gospel words. And then he prayed the sinner's prayer for Greg Laurie.

And then he baptized him. I thought I thought it was Chuck Smith's character that or maybe it was both of them.

Well, there were there were two or three different baptisms that were in the movie. Yes, Chuck Smith. I thought it was

Greg Laurie's. I'm sorry. I guess I missed this particular one with that pertained to Greg Laurie had to do with Lonnie Frisbee inviting him to come into the water.

And I don't think that Greg Laurie's conversion was like that. You could look it up online and ask that question.

Greg Laurie's conversion experience. And if it was, I'm sure he looks back now.

Well, we'll see that will be the one unless I'm misremembering the one

Greg Laurie in the movie is being baptized seconds before he was baptized.

He wasn't even sure that he wanted to be baptized. Which exact which he is saying this to Chuck Smith portrayed by Kelsey Grammer, if I'm not mistaken.

And that is an odd thing that a minister of the gospel would seconds after hearing somebody say,

I don't really know if I want to do this. You baptize them anyway, just because they say, OK, I'm ready.

But anyway, this is where I think a lot of confusion, probably in that era at that time, because they were literally baptizing hundreds and thousands of people.

And I wasn't there. I don't know. I don't want to come across dogmatically.

But you wonder how many people were genuinely saved or a credible profession of faith in Christ were baptized at that point.

Was it just like, hey, come and get baptized, come be born of water in the spirit.

And in general, a lot of evangelicals are confused over John 3, 5, where Jesus is verily, verily,

I say unto thee, except the man be born of water and of the spirit, they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So that's an important text. And of course, the baptismal regeneration is the

Roman Catholics use that expression water that Jesus yokes with spirit as referring to water baptism.

I don't believe it's referring to water baptism. It can't refer to water baptism. Otherwise, Paul could never have written in 1

Corinthians 1, 17, Christ sent me not to baptize, but to what preach the gospel.

And he goes on to say the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes in the gospel does not contain a reference to baptism as an ingredient that results in the conversion transaction.

It's simply the gospel that Christ died, was buried, rose again. That's the gospel in a nutshell.

And, of course, you need to preach repentance and faith in God and repentance in God and faith in our

Lord Jesus Christ. That's how Paul summarizes his gospel presentation in Acts 20, verse 21.

Baptism does play no role in one's conversion. It does play one's role in their discipleship.

And that's why we are Baptist, believer Baptist, because we believe that the proper order of baptism is something subsequent to the act of miraculous conversion.

And that's why I say you have to be baptized in the spirit before you can be baptized in the water.

What is the baptism of the spirit? When faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, when one is born, as Peter says, being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.

And in that very chapter in verse three, it says about the Lord God who caused us to be born again.

The cause of our birth is because God willed it and generated it in our souls and utilize the agent of the word.

And that's where I believe what Jesus means when he says born of water and the spirit, because in John 15, three,

Jesus says, now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

And husbands are commanded to wash their wives in the water of the word.

I was going to quote that one next where Paul says, Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of water by the word.

So the word is the cleansing agent yoked with the spirit. When the spirit takes the word and generates it and delivers it and rivets it into the soul of a man, that's what creates the new birth and the salvation experience.

Baptism is absolutely isolated and segregated from the new birth experience.

And there's something that I want to highlight, as I think one of the greatest tragedies of the movie, where they really dropped the ball and squandered a powerful opportunity, especially in this day and age where homosexuality, the damnable, unnatural sin of homosexuality is not only tolerated, it's celebrated and it's not only celebrated by liberals and leftists, many

Republicans celebrate this. I'm not saying that they are participating in it necessarily, and many are participating in it.

But, you know, you could see even on Fox News the number of guests and and even hosts of programs that identify themselves as homosexuals.

And just because they are fiscally conservative and perhaps constitutional in their understanding of government, they are paraded on that network as being, you know, wonderful arbiters of truth and communicators of true conservatism and so on.

But what they squandered is, they didn't mention at all

Lonnie Frisbee's struggle with homosexuality and his repentance of it.

He died of AIDS, I believe it was in the 1990s he died of AIDS. Ninety three.

Ninety three. And according to our mutual friend,

Ed Moore, who I had on the program yesterday, pastor of North Shore Baptist Church of Bayside, Queens, he is absolutely certain that Lonnie Frisbee made a public profession of repentance and demonstrated great sorrow over his backsliding into that wicked behavior.

And was warning that this sin would be a much more prevalent and dangerous thing in our nation in the future.

And he, I'm not saying he really was a prophet in that sense of new extra biblical revelation, but he certainly foresaw what has definitely occurred and is continuing to occur in our day and age.

But anyway, I think that's one of the greatest things they squandered and one of the ways the film failed.

Because I cannot help but think they said to themselves, those who are the producers and those who are involved in the whole creation of this film, oh, we can't do that.

That's going to cause us a problem. Homosexuals are going to be mad if we say that this is a behavior that you have to repent of.

It would have soured the movie from the portrayal is that Lonnie Frisbee was used of God in a mighty way.

And even though we had marital problems and he had an over exaggerated prophetic calling so that he had visions and read people's minds and call people out and heal them and all that kind of thing.

And Chuck Smith, which I liked, it did display a little bit that Chuck Smith had difficulties with that extremity.

Yeah, that was in the film. That part worked. And so he had to separate from him.

Lonnie Frisbee ends up coming back sometime later and is given a job by Chuck Smith as a parking lot attendant, which was very humbling to Lonnie Frisbee.

So Chuck Smith just didn't roll the red carpet out to Lonnie when he came back to Calvary Chapel.

Well, we have to just go to our final break. It's going to be a lot quicker than the other breaks.

So if you have a question, send it in immediately because we're running out of time. Chris Arnsen at Gmail dot com.

Chris Arnsen at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

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Also, I just want to quickly announce a conference that is coming up, the

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Gary George, in the early 1990s. It is no longer being held in Pennsylvania, however. It's in Franklin, Tennessee now, and the

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And just even though it's not on the subject we are discussing, Gary, I wanted to read a question, and we give her a very brief answer because it's a first -time questioner, and even though it's off -topic,

I don't want to ignore her question. Meredith in Brimfield, Massachusetts asks,

I grew up Catholic, parochial school. Why doesn't the Catholic Church teach John 3, verse 1 through 11,

Christ saying you must be born again? Love your show. Thank you. Well, obviously, there are going to be

Catholic apologists who disagree with her assessment. Catholic apologists especially are more in tune to buzzwords and phrases that evangelicals use and incorporate them into the way that they deliver what

Catholics believe. And technically, Catholics do believe that you need to be born again, but they believe that happens in the waters of baptism.

So if you want to respond to that, that's Meredith in Brimfield, Massachusetts. Why doesn't the

Catholic Church teach John 3, verses 1 through 11? Yeah, they do teach it, but they teach it by way of infant baptism, and it is stated in their 1994 and even their updated

Catholic Catechism that is approved by the Pope himself. So born again to them is water baptism.

Again, that's a consistent error that's held throughout a lot of denominations and branches of Christendom.

Well, summarize what you most want to say about this movie before we go off the air, brother.

I think the best thing that we can do out of the movie is pray that God would use the name of Jesus and Bible -biblical conversion as a reality, that people's lives can be changed, and Jesus is the hope and the answer.

He's the only way of getting right with a holy God. And although the movie doesn't—it's not a gospel movie per se, it still was something about Jesus, and we can be grateful that people can at least maybe touch the hem of the garment out of the movie and be saved.

So let's be grateful for it. The realities of back in the early 70s in that movement, may

God bring a movement again upon this country, which is in desperate need of a change and a reversal of the direction that we're going in, and it's almost like the stage is set for the gospel to be sown in our day.

Might there be more Jesus movements and movies that come out that are proclaiming boldly about the power of Jesus to change the lives of people through the

Holy Spirit and the gospel? Amen. And if you want more details about the church where my guest pastors,

Sovereign Grace Chapel of Southbridge, Massachusetts, go to SovereignGraceMA, the abbreviation for Massachusetts, dot org.

SovereignGraceMA .org. I want to thank you so much, Pastor Gary, for being such an excellent guest, as you always are.

I look forward to you returning to the program. I believe that we already have discussed your next topic, so I'm looking forward to that.

I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to thank Meredith from Brimfield, Massachusetts, for sending in a question.

And I want you to give me your full mailing address, Meredith, because since you're a first -time questioner, you have won a free

New American Standard Bible. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater