January 5, 2017 Show with Dr. C. Matthew McMahon on “The Puritans As Precisionists”

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Well today we have for the very first time on iron sharpens iron Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.

He is founder of a Puritans mind and our topic today is the Puritans as

precisionists.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron for the very first time a dr. C. Matthew McMahon.

Well, thank you for having me I'm excited to be here great well as a very often do

dr. McMahon before we even go into the subject at hand, which is a very

Powerful subject.

It's a it's a subject that is near and dear to my heart due to my love for the Puritans.

I would love for you to give a summary of How the Lord in his

sovereign providence? Brought you to himself.

What kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and what were the Occurrences

providentially that the Lord brought into your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

Okay, that's a that's a tall order.

There's a lot of providences that work in that particular way, you know, like with my wife.

She knows exactly the time that the Lord saved her.

She's not where she was what the sermon was who was preaching it and so forth for me It

was a little bit different.

I was one of those that my

grandfather was at assemblies of God minister and my mother was her

dad was the minister and so there was a bit of That moral aspect to it.

Although I don't think my mother or my father being more recently converted would say that it was a Christian

home.

They basically sent my brother and I down the street at a little white church to go to church eat Sunday and we

became part of you know the youth group there and such but It was quite a

bit lacking.

It was a liberal church.

You were lucky to hear the scripture.

It was more of a moralistic home and such so I can't give you a specific time in terms of when

Regeneration happened, but I can give you a Specific time when I believe the

gospel and I think those are a little bit different in the sense.

When he was in his mother's

womb is when he's an

understanding the message of the Messiah.

You know, I don't know what if my 16 years old it could have been five minutes

before I believed the gospel.

I'm not sure to do

something you got.

I really wasn't settled.

I didn't know what I wanted to do.

So I said, well, I'm gonna go to the agricultural school and I said, I'm gonna go there.

I'm gonna be a forest ranger and I thought that was a good choice because my friends and I in our

little youth group Enjoyed going camping all the time.

And so I figured if I like the outdoors, maybe I'd like to work in the outdoors.

So I went to agricultural school and I hated it every minute of it the first

semester.

The teacher and I remember this distinctly the teacher was teaching a class on hydrology.

I was bored to tears, but then he started talking about Needing to find a when

he said so we decided to hire a witch to use a divining rod and find the well because we Couldn't

find it.

And so we hired her and we found it and and he just kind of kept on with this lecture.

And when he said that for some reason Providentially, I would just say the Lord just

was like get up out of this class.

You're done with this.

You're gonna come work for me that kind of Thought process in my naive mind at that particular time

was I need to go work for God.

So I went downstairs in the library and I grabbed One of those big college.

I'm gonna narrow it down to two states.

I'm gonna look in California and I'm gonna look in Florida and I started just spending time looking for a school and

This one school in Florida to write down

and Southeastern Bible College.

I'd never heard of it didn't know anything about it.

And so I went home In excitement and said mom dad.

I know exactly what I want to do.

I'm gonna go work for God.

I want to be a minister and they were like really I was like, yeah, I want to go to Southeastern Bible College.

Have you ever heard of that?

And they were like no no idea.

Why don't you call your grandfather?

He's in assemblies of God ministered.

Maybe he would know, you know.

So I gave my grandfather a call and I said I want to come over and I want to talk with my

grandfather.

Interestingly enough with so many

books that they were everywhere in his house.

They were upstairs downstairs in the cellar in his study.

You name it.

My grandmother always went nuts with him.

Yeah, I mean thousands of them so many so that he donated a large

truckload of books to Christian school and a library that they were opening up.

I mean that's how many books he had and Towards the time that I had an

interest in the ministry.

He started collecting Puritan works that in and of itself is interesting simply because of his

background in the case I went to his house and.

I said.

Grandfather, I want to be a minister.

We talked about that a little bit and I said, I know exactly where I want to go.

Have you ever heard of Southeastern Bible College and he looked at me and he was like, well, yeah.

That's where I donated all my books to now.

I had never heard of Southeastern ever mentioned in our house.

He never mentioned it.

Nobody ever mentioned it that Providence in and of itself.

Just kind of confirmed to me that I that's where I needed to go.

Regardless of whether it was actually God's providence in that particular manner that we might be thinking about it

my grandfather said I'm going to give the school a call and I'll make

sure you get he's like no.

No, I'm gonna do that.

So he gave them the call the next day and called me up and said listen.

The president's wife is going to give you a call questions.

I was gonna ask it was gonna be the first time I was moving

which was pretty

short.

She said since your grandfather donated those books work.

All you need to do is get down here.

I didn't know what to say.

I said, thank you.

That's amazing, thank you

and studying for after

the first semester guy who Did not

want to stop studying at that particular point.

So there was something happening in my spirit in that particular manner

wait until next semester.

I'm going through summer school.

We're gonna take every class we can possibly take and so I signed up for all

these said to myself.

Well, I've got two weeks to do nothing.

I'm going into the school library.

I want to.

I want to buy a book on the cross.

I want to know something about the cross.

I want to understand that better.

Something on the atonement.

So I went in the Assemblies of God school in their Assemblies

of God book or something with a catchy title.

That's of death and oh, yeah.

Right now.

Why was that book in that particular store?

I'll tell you what that book and I

read Packers introduction

you to read that for the next week or so I can remember exactly where I was

on page 300 side a particular building at that school and

Said out loud, I believe I said out loud.

I said who wouldn't believe this.

This is and so

it's for me.

Was.

John chapter 3 a good stint in

his work and and I was at that particular point and I was thinking about the atonement I was thinking about the death of Christ.

His blood.

Sprinkled for me and thought about it like I'm standing before

the judgment seat of wrapped in the robes of his righteousness.

He's given me riding on the glory clouds of

heaven.

And in front of him are all the books starts to open

the books up.

He turns page by page.

His wounds spill out blood and all

the pages are covered.

He closes it and he says I see no

sin.

Three.

John 3 16 being born again.

God, I mean I took that exactly the way that Owen explained it in

his purse for me.

Believing the gospel and it done for me

Spiritually to think about what I was going to do in terms of working for God.

I wound up meeting my wife the last semester to finish school

there and we then Went to the next school, which is I needed to go to seminary.

So at that time a number of different providences came up.

He brought us to RTS reform theological seminary at the time.

It was in Maitland and it was all of the great teachers were there.

Sproul was there.

Sinclair Ferguson would come in and he would teach things on the Puritans.

John Gerstner was there the best.

I was almost like I got two degrees there because not

only did I go in to get an MA.

But I I wound up study

one of the things that they

can the day they had cassette

cool.

And there were they were thing that you could think of from all of the reformed teachers so it was

like I got a double dose of Reformed literature at that time not only being able to

sit in the commons from people

other classes that they didn't necessarily have at the school at that time, you know, I listened to everything and so it was

like devouring reformed literature of every make and model of that

the Lord you ground me

reformed teaching and.

Then after graduating from there We wound

up going back

home church there wound up ordaining

me to do that

and sin.

The church I found out was Pelagian and

dealing with the truth.

We want to hold steadfastly to the truth.

No matter what that point is like well,

what are we going to

do now a few months.

Lord would lead us the church

he's and planting that church with

a large group of people for a church plan and but they wanted somebody to come in with

Reformed teaching the doctrines of grace and that's where they wanted to head.

We saw that has gone about

three years.

Okay as

well.

And I read almost

everything that

and bought

everything.

I was reading everything

that I could on the Puritans

because that's finding.

It's really really written.

Well is blessing missing

me to be reading some of

this powerful and.

The internet was just starting to come around to being popular.

So I thought well, I'm gonna put together the

time you want it.

He was saying to me we got to make something that's simple.

Everybody's gonna like and I was he's like, you know something like reformed theology calm or something simple.

And I was like do a Puritan's mind.

It's mine I'm like, well, I'm thinking about

it in the way that I'm thinking about it.

I'm reading.

Coming away the combat between the flesh

and the spirit.

I'm thinking like he's thinking and I'm reading Turreton.

And I'm agreeing with Turreton.

And so I'm coming away from reading that.

Thinking like he's thinking and the same with William Ames in such a thing.

Well, I'm coming away with a Puritan's mind and and that's not a bad thing.

That's a good thing.

And it also gives me the ability to explain to people what I

mean.

When I say a pure I wound up taking little snippet

new enough to be dangerous since mine calm

and just started publish of these guys and

then Amazingly I started reading will

you put him out there?

It's like wow this guy's amazing.

Let's put some of his stuff

out of these Ministers of

the website just started standards out there the confessions

all the creeds of the confessions started putting stuff out there on covenant theology and stuff out

there on historical theology Biographies because I

wanted other people to get

important thing and in terms of in talking about the Puritan and the precisionist.

We'll see why that's an important really important thing for people to begin to see and

understand how how great these works preaching and such of these men

and their sermons there and In

a million different directions started putting stuff out there on the

Reformation subjects

that people just weren't necessarily like they should be.

I mean in mine, I

know a lot about his way through circle

theology helped in that way I was doing I was doing book reviews.

I was throwing stuff out there on the doctrines of grace Tulip

edges about 2003 2005 somewhere in

there I started writing in his

mind picking up speed on the internet because there wasn't anything 60

years

even after as long as

they can be information out

and then I had somebody email me

and they said, you know You should start thinking about publishing and stuff Publishing some of the things that you've written

with I

think titles

or see from that point I started gathering good texts.

My grandfather died in that time.

That was a blessing my grandmother said

gonna be people coming out of the woodwork while you're here.

And I know this is a bad time.

But while you're here You need to go get whatever it is that you

want to go from that

librarian from gathering

text and

publications as the name of the publishing house so to speak

WWW as it is right now.

We've gotten to the point where we've published over 60 of the Westminster

pure 215 or so so far most of

the day like they're they're nowhere and but here's the thing I

Loved reading.

I loved reading old English Long,

it's very laborious Works,

you know, my wife wouldn't read them.

Necessarily, maybe there was a passage or something or like a quippet that I would put out on a Puritan's mind a little piece I

think and you know, what I need to do is in doing these books.

We need to make them readable and So that was the that was the

characteristic that made these particular works Important to me because not only did they

keep the intent of the author did them in modern

English to

make it

more readable.

That way patients winds up being about it.

Not only to take some of these real awesome works.

And get them out there to get them out there in a way that the housewife is going to read them.

We're going to read them as well as pastors who love reading

that stuff.

Anyway thinking about

their theology my

Educator and I worked

on on hermeneutics.

Done hermeneutics and

I thought

that

was a really important

and then Augustine time you read the Institutes from

Calvin and he's mostly quoting Augustine right and You know, you go back and you read Augustine and you think

you're reading something out of the Reformation.

So.

You know, I was like what?

There's got to be a really good book out there that I just like to read on Augustine and the doctrines of grace and there Wasn't

and so I was.

That's what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna put something together that surveys all of Augustine's writing and puts together his

Understanding that you

know, so all of those things complemented

One another and I think by doing some of that really intense

Theological research is mine in

a lot of working areas On reform theology in the

Puritan.

Yeah, I mean even now somebody may be listening say wow, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

You know for that, you know, sometimes people say they'll say to me that they've said to me in

Conversations that you love your heroes and they're referring to the Puritans.

Oh, you love your heroes that way because I enjoy Reading the

Puritan.

I'm like, well, no, I

think you're thinking about it in the wrong way.

As a matter of fact, I would say to them I say my stance on the Puritan ought to be the

same stance that everybody else should have to be

a believing Christian.

Because.

That relates precision

and why that's important.

So.

You know, I'm thinking about it like the Lord Jesus has set down for me and

I need to follow in

the knowledge of Jesus Christ and That means that I need to

understand what then the Bible

is going to be expounded ordained men.

That God has placed in the pastoral ministry to be able to tell me what scripture in

and of itself tip of

our tongue.

It's supposed to be in our mouth.

We're supposed to be meditating on it day and night.

It's to be our delight all those things.

Would have memorized it hide it in our heart right at that point I'm thinking well,

the Lord tells me I'm to grow in grace and I'm to grow in the knowledge of our Lord

Jesus eternal life

this is eternal life that they

might know thee the only true God in Jesus Christ and you've sent Christ

said that then God has given his people certain

means by which they can grow in grace, we generally call that the means of grace and

in a very

Subordinate standard to the Westminster Confession.

Basically what they did is they just summarized The confession on certain points and they said

the means of grace.

Comment and prayer and

things that what they do is

that once they say that they explain then how that information that

biblical information is going to be transmitted to us as Christians.

And this is a little quote I have this because they said this in the Word of God preached by sent messengers

the Lord makes an offer of grace to all sinners on condition of faith in Jesus Christ and

Whosoever to confess their sin themselves to his ordinances He

will have both them and their children received the honor and privileges of and so

what they did is they placed an emphasis on the preacher.

Bringing God's message her

job was in terms of being a minister.

In fact, let's pick up after our first break on that.

And by the way, I wanted to bring up a couple of providential things that you said that involve things you said in

the beginning I was mentioning before the interview began as you heard my

pastor's luncheon.

Well to two of those publishers that Have just shipped me books.

Two of the many publishers that have shipped me books includes sprinkle publications who have

shipped me their book the salt of the Covenant or the biblical doctrine of salvation.

And also Don Kistler who used to run Sully

Dale Gloria and now runs the Northampton Press.

He is shipping me books for all of the men and so are Quite a

number of others.

The other Providential occurrences you're you're repeating of the

name Christopher love.

Who I had only heard years ago in the early 2000s.

I think from a message by Don Kistler I had

discovered who Christopher love was and I don't know if you're aware of this, but I close Every

episode of iron sharpens iron with a quote from Christopher love.

Which is Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Right, so I can I conclude that That I concluded that quote every single day.

So it's quite a providence that you were mentioning those things.

But I have to go to a break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city in the state and your country of residence if you live

Outside of the USA don't go away.

We'll be right back with dr. C. Matthew McMahon.

Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries.

I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh vice and praise mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Conrad and Bayway

Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated the

pillars of what?

G3 stands for Gospel grace and glory.

For more details go to g3 conference .com.

That's g3 conference .com.

Thanks, James.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned in.

Our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes or so to go is Dr. C.

Matthew McMahon founder of a Puritans mind.

We are addressing the theme the Puritans as Precisionists.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

at CH RIS a RN Zen at gmail .com and I do have

a listener in Indianapolis, Indiana Who has already sent in an email with a question?

She says this is Erin in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Hi Chris.

It is such a shame that the world has such a false view of the Puritans.

Please discuss whether there is anything we can do to reform the horribly maligned

Reputation of the Puritans.

That's a very good question because it's very true If you could dr. McMahon

Explain who these people that you have fallen in love with are or were

the approximate Years that they arrived on the scene and when they seem to have

disappeared from the map.

I believe that Jonathan Edwards may have been one of the last Puritans and other than those that

revived the theology of those men like Charles Spurgeon and others and

Tell us a bit about Those caricatures those slanderous things

that our listener in Indianapolis has has Brought up to the attention of our listeners.

Okay.

Yeah, like the soup.

You don't want to be like the Puritans who don't have any fun.

You want to get one of our cars and drive a Subaru?

I.

Didn't even know they had a commercial like that.

You know on some commercial in between the news at some particular point.

I was like you gotta be kidding me really.

Of course.

They want to malign the Puritans in whatever particular manner they can.

Okay in terms of time period time period is really important because there are some boundaries

that we need to kind of set up in terms of finding out why they were called

precisionists and Then why they were called Puritans.

So 1558 Queen Elizabeth inherits the throne

in England and she restores Anglicanism and One

year later the act of uniformity requires that ministers

of England are to use the Book of Common Prayer for public worship and then over the next couple of years They'll throw

in things like clerical vestments and and things that they want specifically their ministers to

do now.

Queen Elizabeth in and of herself she wanted a stupid laity and a stupid group of ministers

just to follow her in Whatever particular way she wanted to turn the church the

Puritans were not going to help what they did is

They started writing against the Church of England.

Thomas Cartwright was one of the first to do that and he was actually ejected from his post of

teaching at Cambridge.

Recriticizing the Anglican their liturgy

called it and this is where we start to get the word.

He called it pretended Purity so the Anglican Church was

in his mind Pretended to be the church

decisionist at the Puritan

ministers.

They they wanted to bring the Church of England back

and there was a reason for them wanting to do that.

But like Cartwright said there's a little quote from Cartwright.

He said but alas from this it's

primitive Purity and so in the beginning

They were called Precisionist because they kept going

back to Scripture.

They kept going back to the precision that thatness of God's

Word because they had been brought up with a classical education

and scholastic humanism and There's a bit that could get unraveled

in there as well when we talk start talking about like scholastic humanism.

For the Reformers not like humanism today humanistic beliefs and such but it was more

of a a scholars journey back to the original texts of

whatever it is that you were studying in Whatever discipline you were in so for

the Reformers previous to the Puritans.

They were.

They were sticking to Scripture.

They were going back to Scripture talk about that in a moment.

But in terms of the Puritans, they were Precisionist because they kept

going back to the Bible as their objective standard of and

Queen Elizabeth and the Anglicans they didn't do that.

What they wanted to do was simply set a uniform

happiness between the church crying

and.

So.

Cartwright and others started writing against that said no.

No, we need to go back to the Bible.

We need to hold to the Bible.

We need to get back to the purity of Scripture the

Anglican Church then and

then Queen Elizabeth dies and then King James comes in and

The pure

Reformation if we can get King James to hear what we're trying to tell

and so and the petition

the millinery petition signed by

1 ,000 Puritan ministers at least that

maybe didn't have exactly a thousand.

But that supposedly it had a thousand signatures.

And what they were doing is they they petitioned him and they sent it to him while he was on the road

To go take the throne.

They sent it to him and said listen at the Bible.

We need we need to reform

the way I

verse Look in church were

actually holding to they need to be reversed and so the Puritan

goals

King James, he blew that that at least

Gave a little bit what's called the Hampton

what that was

language.

He tried to get an English Bible two years

later and King James

in 11 version

point of a reprieve So to speak

in the way that the Puritans could go about preaching and teaching and such now We have the Bible that's in the English

language.

We could put that into the hands of people.

All of the Puritan families at the time would have had a Geneva Bible Which actually the King James version

is an amalgamation between the bishops Bible the Geneva Bible and about a 20 Translating effort

we come to that addition.

So a lot of it came right out of the Geneva Bible with the Geneva notes, which were Exceedingly

pure it was a little

bit they were writing

as much

as people would like to say King James was Charles the first was as well

lots of problems wound up occurring at that particular time and the English Civil War

begins about 1642 and Most of the Puritans wind up

siding with Parliament against King Vines

to come together and say, okay here's what we need we need a

Precise and exact England

Ireland and Scotland and place them under whatever God says

in his word and that you as an assembly have concerning and

so convened in

terms of any point that you read

see how dense and precise and

Theologically rich every word phrase and

1643 to 1646 they worked together to

create the 1647 Westminster was

implementing it.

What happened Politically with Charles the first Defeated

free army that wound up kind of

throwing a wrench into What the confession was ultimately going to do for England Ireland

in Scotland.

Yet when Oliver Cromwell came in There was again kind of a time here for the

Puritan simply to preach and minister to the people and that happened for a good amount of time almost ten years until Cromwell

died and Half second came into play and

we called that the restoration and then in 1662 the act of uniformity.

Again, another one passed and that's when we have over 2 ,000 Puritan ministers

Ejected from the from the pulpit including people like Richard Baxter when we say,

okay, when did the Puritan?

Specifically if you want to be You would say

1559 to 16.

However That's the historic because right in the midst of that

whole had the pilgrims the pilgrims were separatists who left England they went to the

Netherlands for a little while and then they wound

up the colony of Plymouth Godly

ministers coming out of this theological heritage From the Puritans, although

not, you know Puritans in the sense respective of they stayed in the Church

of England to purify it.

Which really was what Puritans were about?

So we make a distinction between the Puritans who stayed in the church and the pilgrims who left and started over because they were

thinking There's no possible way that we're going to be able to take the Church of England this giant political

mechanism and Fix it and the Puritans were like no no The Word of

God put them right

into the assembly right through the confessions right to the point where thing

at that particular

Even known aid in the church before they were even known as Puritans

they were all called precision it and the person

means that When you put some sharply

defined and sharply stated the actual word itself

Meaning to contain the idea of being minutely exact

in what it is that you're saying Pertain to somebody who strictly conformed to a particular standard and in

this case it was the ministers that Wanted to see Reformation again.

Holding to the he was known as a

doctrinal

sermons are

skill.

He meditated on the scriptures to the point

that they were able to unfold and unlock.

What the meaning was?

Behind what it was that they were writing about so if one was going to be a good

person Trained in a manner that provides them with the necessary

tools to study well because if you can't study well Then you're not going to be able to be precise with

whatever it is that you're studying.

So the Puritans as a precisionist they basically stood on the shoulders of the

Reformers and on the Reformation, you know right now we're in the 2017

we're 500 years now in the time when Martin Luther put his pieces up on the door of

Wittenberg and we've got 500 years of true and meditate on

and look at historically and and such.

But the Puritans They specifically stood on the shoulders of those who

were exact in Their doctrinal formulation

of the theology of the Reformers and he talked

formers were always increasing the fullness exactness and

precision of the delivering and

one of the things that

he says as concerning John Knox and he said he entered the

field of cotton in the armor of God and Wielded the

sword of the spear

doctrines of the Reformation and The doctrines that the Reformers wrote about when

you read Calvin when you read Luther, would you read Knox?

Former malignant on to a certain extent Abuser Bullinger they were

precise about laying down and rescuing the gospel from darkness in All of

the standard theology.

And so the Puritan said well, okay, we have these these Doctrines now we want

to take all of this theology and we want to apply it to every air.

How did they do that?

Ordained and called ministers whose job it was in their mind to

take the mind of the hearer whether it was in public sermons or whether it was in

and connect the mind of the hearer to the mind of the Holy Spirit in a passage or

teaching of Scripture through precision and Clarity that's what they saw the

reason that they did it as effectively as they did Was a result of the tool that they had of

their education and Rameon logic.

It's a study and understand and they needed

to take time to do that now a lot of people I mean, I've gotten lots of emails and such on that that phrase

Rameon logic.

What is Rameon logic.

The Puritans were versed in Peter Ramus.

He lived During the Reformation 1515 he

was born.

He lived until 1572 he was probably one of the most of a century

and he stands with great educators and such he was a he was a great speaker and

he actually had a tremendous influence on world history because basically

what he did away from the scholastic

philosophy of his day and

He was 21 years old and he's like listen We need to go back to scripture and

shrink and that includes all of these other disciplines and the arts that we have in our

university and So once he was convinced of that which he was convinced of it 20 21 years old.

He started pushing in opposition to Everything else that was already in the

universities and he became a very ardent reformer if not Even a Revolutionist

and so the academic world because it meant that

everything that they were teaching was wrong.

If Ramus was right, they were all wrong.

And so they didn't like the fact that you know when he was barely 21 years old.

He's becoming like one of the most striking figures in The intellectual realm

saying something which is amazingly profound for

the time idea.

He said When we think about the way that we think and when we think about philosophy

and when we think about Understanding anything that we study we should Basically do it in

a way that it is more.

These are his words more easily perceived and thought about

What we want to do that Something simple should be understood in a

simple manner.

Something complex should be brought down To the most simple form to understand it in a

general way

so using that approach Ramus started right whole series of textbooks on logic and

rhetoric and grammar and mathematics and astronomy all sorts of things he was a genius in that particular manner and

but what happened was the

Reformation everybody thinks, you know,

when you think about the Reformation and

It really didn't play out that way because the Reformation was a number of little Reformations in different countries in

different places with different people all Providentially by God's hand being

moved to go back to the sources.

One of the most popular humanists of the day was Erasmus.

You probably heard the heard the quote, you know Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched.

Erasmus went back to the sources.

He wanted to go back to scripture as authoritative rather than reading it secondhand through the church fathers.

And that's all that Ramus did he was like

Mediates between us thinking and let's go back

to the in a way

and we amen and let's.

Let's pick up right on that when we return from the break.

And we do have some folks listening who have questions waiting to be asked and answered on the air.

And we'll get to you as soon as we can when we return from the break.

If anybody would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages with dr C Matthew McMahon.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is Dr. C.

Matthew McMahon, we are discussing the precision ism of the Puritans.

Dr. McMahon is founder of a Puritans mind and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for

dr McMahon our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com chris

Arn z n at gmail .com and please give us at least your first name your city and

state in your country of Residence before we go to any of our Listeners questions.

I want you to pick up on your train of thought about ad fontis going back to the sources.

You were speaking about Erasmus laying the egg that Luther

hatched and Erasmus and Luther, of course would also be involved in one of

the most pivotal Debates of the Reformation on the bondage of the will but if you could continue.

Okay, great, yeah, I mean erratically wayward in a few ways.

He did contribute certain things that were good and yet, you know

understanding the basics that men are in Under the

imputation of Adam's sin and utterly incapable of doing any good and believing any good thing until the

spirit regenerates them.

Erasmus missed that completely and totally.

But yeah, but that was something that he still did.

Desire was going back to the sources and all of the Reformers ultimately were doing that so

they had gone back to the rescue

from the dark and

Ramus did that as well.

They hated him so much interestingly That Ramus died as a martyr.

They assassinated him.

He was in a study Praying and reading and these guys broke in they shot him in the head Stabbed him in

the heart and threw him out of five -story window.

Because he was bringing people the

Reformers they laid down the basic fundamental doctrines that we find in Scripture and

Recovered the gospel in that particular way made it more public in that particular way and then the

Puritans they took their classical education their scholastic education in that way

with their Ramian thought and They started then making things precise and

clear.

Making things applicable to the Christian from the Bible in Every

and that's why they were called precisionist you know, they were always

increasing with clearness with precision the testimony of what the church believes and

That aided the progressive development that doctrines had to make them

more defined and more precise.

That's why I mentioned earlier that Westminster Confession is super precise when you read it every word phrase

sentence idea paragraph.

It's so precise in everything that it said scripture in that particular

way always reminds me of a amazing and

thinking about how.

These men were as precise as they were and their intellect and how they were trained.

Was there was a committee with the assembly that was engaged in putting together the shorter catechism.

And so they got to the question.

We asked that question to you gather up a group of pastors put them in a room and say we need you to answer this Question.

What is God in about it?

Well, that's not what these guys did these guys were like enough to answer this

unfathomable question, how are we going to do that and.

So they asked George Gillespie

with answering that question and when he began his prayer he prayed like that.

He said Oh God Infinite eternal and

unchangeable and I being wisdom power holiness justice goodness and truth.

Susie said amen every single one of those guys was probably saying in there grab a quill.

We need to write that down and and so that's what they did and that's what the answer to that question wound

up being is one of the most scriptural and most complete answers and that.

Unanswerable question that we have in any creed or catechism in the church now.

Gillespie was very opposed to a lot of the Roman baggage of the

Anglican Church, wasn't he?

Very much so and he wrote quite a number of works

for the

same thing almost a hundred years before that and.

So.

Again that actually proves the point that as these men were trained

Ordained and studied in these particular ways.

That.

They were they wanted to be precise according to the scripture

the Puritans in that way masters of

what they called formal precision and a lot of people have

to have the Puritans because of the Remian influence because of their logic and

because of their diving so deep within the depth of a given subject, you know, you it's like you

start reading John Owen on something and.

And he's on point eight of sub point fifteen with corollary number

four on use number eight.

You tend to sometimes get lost with that kind of thing.

And so because we haven't we haven't really thought you know

to train our minds today in our age.

So that's one of the reasons why when we publish some of these works many of them for the first time We don't leave them in that old

English and all the difficult grammatical constructions and stuff.

We've got to update them to make them a little bit easier.

That's a little bit more challenging for us.

And it's more work, but it's more beneficial because then people start enjoying Reading the Puritans in

that way instead of having a difficult time working through difficult grammar and language and stuff.

We do have a question.

I just wanted to I just wanted to read a question from one of our listeners Jeff and Clinton Township, Michigan.

Asks, I've heard that some Puritans practiced meditation and

soliloquy in prayer.

With your kind guests, please expand upon these terms and how Puritan meditation Was

nothing like the Hindu practices.

Right

with

your

legs crossed

just

like I'm doing right

now.

Somehow.

Things that are linked to New Age ideas of transcendental meditation.

Or something like that or they think of like a Buddhist monk chanting in a monastery in a mountain shrine you know

or yoga or things of that nature that have those asks

and so when we think about meditation Godly meditation really

is part of what the Puritans would have called the three legs to the stool.

So if you're gonna sit down on a stool You're gonna have three legs at least that are gonna hold you up and you can't sit on

the two you need three so When you have quiet time you read the scriptures

you pray and you meditate.

In a godly manner you ponder what the Word of God

and as you've studied.

So then you Work those ideas through your mind had been calumny called

godly meditation like that when the cow chews the cud he continually does it and

so the Christian has to take a Serious intention of the

mind Where they come to search out the truth of the Word of God and

they settle it in their heart.

That would really be a good way to think about Godly meditation and so it

stands between Reading the scriptures and praying because it improves Bible reading and it

makes prayer effective.

There's the mind with the best materials for prayer with a fervency that you're gonna

have for prayer if people say Oh like in and of itself that we could talk

about for a really long time.

Just in terms of godly meditation, but necessarily in that direction all

the way meditation is.

When you start thinking about what scripture says to the point that it's spiritually beneficial

for you Meditatively in your quiet time.

It's it's right thinking so

Attitude.

I mean if Christ speaks about us having a holy violence right in terms

of living in the kingdom of heaven Kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the

violence then I storm in that particular way

Thomas Watson truth in pondering

heavenly principles in that way.

It's deduced from the word glorious

thing when Christians pick up the duty of meditation in that particular way and They

join the Word of God with godly meditation so that they understand what scripture says.

That then fuels their prayer time.

God formed into an argument and Retorted back to God again.

That was the Puritan definition of prayer.

Prayer is not Let me give you a big list of things that I need and want it was here's what the promises

says.

I got to understand what the promises say.

I need to work that out in my mind and think through it and Then I can take those

promises and I can throw them back to God and say here is what your word says.

Here is what you've promised.

Here is what I need in those promises it was a very different thing when the Puritans prayed and when the Puritans had

quiet time then.

And we do there are.

There are a number of

works by

the way a

number of

Puritan works

that really mean so things like

Divine

meditation John Ball's work a

whole

works a

new

salt and

improved by divine

meditation.

Employ that in

the right way.

It's going to be a benefit.

I meditate on his

blood day and night and.

So, what does that mean.

Isaac went out in the field and he sat down and he meditated at night, why did you do that?

So.

In any case there's.

And we do we do have another question for

you, and I'm not I'm not sure.

If this is an inside joke between you and a friend, I'm not really sure

Where this this listener is coming from with this question.

But Scott in Margate, Florida Asks, dr. Matt.

Is there any truth to the fact that you often when writing in the Puritans?

So that you are more fully inspired put on medieval wigs and strange hats

in your study.

Yes, that's an inside joke between my good friend Scott and Margate

if I recall.

Yes, so one of my one of my Favorite Favorite books by John Owen is a

treatise on masculine attire subtitled the proper use and maintenance of powdered wigs, but.

Just kidding.

By the way.

Even though that was sort of a joke there Scott.

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This is Chris Orns and if you just tuned us in our guest today With about 25 minutes

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Well, we have as our guest today as I mentioned, dr C Matthew McMahon

founder of a Puritans mine and I just want to go back to something that Aaron in Indianapolis,

Indiana brought up earlier before.

As you know, dr. McMahon The Puritans have been maligned and slandered they

I think sometimes our Arminian brothers in Christ are confusing

the stories of the Puritans with that of Count Dracula or Vlad the Impaler or something

because Because we have these horrific and strange stories of men

that are more like monsters and butchers than deeply thinking Christians

who Enjoyed the world that God had blessed them with and also even

more so lived according as best they could to his word and

Cherished it enough to want to be precise When they opened it and taught it.

This is quite a sad tragedy because a lot of people are missing out on a treasure trove of knowledge.

But of course we have to remember that these men were sinners just like we are and there were some

unfortunate periods of history Involving the Puritans like some of the persecution of Baptists and so on

but if you could separate fact from fiction here just to Fully answer what Aaron in

Indianapolis, Indiana had asked earlier about the how do we how do we? recover

a accurate and Wonderful reputation for the Puritans that they deserve.

Although of course as I said, not perfect.

Covering that I think is going to begin in two

places, I think it's going to be in recovering it through

the minister and Recovering it in the family

that I mean that in this particular Particular manner if

somebody's sitting in a church and they're listening to someone preach and They're they're

not Precise or they're not

they tend to have then a certain color about what? preaching is about

and and instead of hearing what the Puritans actually did or reading some of

their works and Thinking about why that's important in terms of

their contribution to the Christian Church overall.

They're just basically going to be colored like the the Subaru commercial colors that well you've always heard the Puritans were these

drab people they wore black and you know, they didn't have any fun and

They're not joyous people and they just lived this kind of well.

They're really the only way that that's going to be combated is between dealing with it

historically in fact completely and totally the opposite.

They're not people who had fun or

Didn't enjoy the Puritans were we're taking God's

Word and applying it to every area of life in such a way as to Arrest it

under the guise of the gospel.

So in whatever what now if somebody says to me well Just to use this as a particular example

People who don't like the idea of and the fourth

commandment the Puritans were sticklers for Holding steadfastly exactly

what God's Word taught concerning the Sabbath.

So somebody's more excited about the football game than they are

day as a day of rest.

They're not gonna like what the Puritans taught, but that's not really having an issue so much with the

Puritans It's really having an issue with their precision in Understanding what

scripture actually says and when I say theirs I mean the Christian who's thinking that way they have to

they have to fall in love first with their Bible.

That happens in the family and the family should have every single day family devotions where they're praying

together and studying together and reading together.

Or if it's just you know, obviously a single person that they're Meditating and

praying and reading scripture and then at the same time the ministers that are trained up that are leading all

of these churches.

They need to be educated in Terms of who the Puritans were and what their

contribution is every single minister I mean we live in America.

So I'm gonna say every single minister in America.

They ought to be familiar with the

best them and.

Their.

Congregations closer to Jesus Christ in the fastest way possible.

So like when I said in the beginning people look at me and they say well.

They still say to me why you like them and no no.

That's not the reason the reason is is because the Puritans are the ones who bring me to Jesus Christ the quickest

and my life is supposed to be a Conformity to Christ and if I'm serious as a Christian

and my life is supposed to be Conforming to him daily in that particular way and mortifying the deeds of the flesh.

Can get

to be redeeming

the time because the days are evil.

And so if I'm redeeming the time that means that I'm not gonna listen to the mediocre stuff.

What is going to

benefit me the

greatest so

much of

today

it was

a bit of against

Mortifying the deeds of the flesh in that way when the Puritan minister was being so precise and exact.

One of the same guys at the time of Thomas Cartwright right in the beginning one of the precision is

someone said to Richard Rogers to Rogers.

I like you and your company very well only you are too precise and

Rogers replied to him and said, oh, sir.

Amen the minute, you know the ministers at that day

were like well the scripture discriminates us in.

What we do how we act how we think doing things one way or another and so what

they wanted to do is they wanted to and the

Bible in every way and.

And that means that the family has to do that.

That means that the minister has to do that as he preaches and as he teaches so it's not just I mean.

It really wouldn't matter so to speak if we created a commercial that was the opposite of the Subaru

commercial.

It's gonna take a lot more than that.

You know.

And that's one of the reasons why on this particular topic when you had asked me about You want to come on and talk something about

Puritans that I wanted to kind of deal with the idea of precision.

Because it directly relates to the pastoral office.

Yes, and they were all ministers.

That's what they were doing.

They were teaching the people in the most precise and biblically responsible manner.

You know, it's funny how you have these modern evangelicals who look upon

Precisionism as a negative thing.

Maybe even a sinful thing because you are building up walls of separation you are

nitpicking over things and so on and they would claim that we are

straining out gnats and swallowing camels and all that kind of thing, but They would

never want anyone to talk about their wives or their mothers or their

children with a lack of precision and accuracy so why on earth as

Evangelicals as Bible believers or self -professed Bible believers.

Why wouldn't they want precision when it comes to the Word of God and God himself?

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

Harrison asks.

I understand that Richard Baxter who you just mentioned Was not a

thoroughgoing Calvinist and had more Arminian leanings.

How common was this among the Puritans?

Not common.

There

were only.

Well, thank

you

Harrison

in

Mechanicsburg

for.

That question and we also have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Who's who asks and it said he really asked something that I touched on just in a comment.

Isn't it true that in spite of the wonderful contribution the Puritans have made to the body of Christ

for all ages that they Some of them have been known to have been harsh

and even have been persecutory against Baptists even to the point of death.

Yes, some of them were and That is a blight

on dealing with that

thinking about Even the best of men and

you

touched on

you know

Reformers as well in

terms of call

one another names and

such and they don't seem hospitable in those particular ways.

Well when you when you start reading things in a larger capacity In terms

of the you'll you'll

see maybe two that needs

to be taken by us In terms of

the way that we communicate and that we season all and

of course this wasn't this was not a.

Widespread thing.

Now, we're not talking about Nazis here that were hunting down people and and in and

creating a massacre of humanity.

This was isolated unfortunate and tragic incidents.

Sinful incidents, but it was not something that was the the common behavior of

Puritans.

Part of the it's part of the caricature because when you have the Subarus Commercial what they're thinking

is they're thinking What is the Puritan.

A Puritan is one who runs around town looking for witches in order to torture them?

That's what they're thinking.

And you know, and so that it's colored that

someone even somebody listening now may be thinking well, I just

don't want to deal with you know people who do that and you know, and I know the

breadth of Solid biblical helpful material that They're known

for something that you don't want it.

You don't want to throw away the baby with the bath of certain caricatures that way

and in fact, it speaks very loudly.

About the value of many of their writings that many

Baptists today love the Puritans and are willing to absorb and

benefit from the truths that they taught Even in spite of the fact that their

forefathers in the faith were mistreated.

Seriously and harshly by some of them in

my in my early days.

Before.

While being Performed Baptist at different points in my Christian journey

and walk.

Was from the

Puritan from because they brought me my

wife and I just to give you an example of the exact opposite of that.

Now we're listening to a reformed preacher and it doesn't matter who it was

a reformed preacher everybody would know who this person is and.

This was in a Sunday service John 10

and then for 26 minutes, that's as long as it was for 26

minutes without any exaggeration he spent the entire

short time Telling story right.

Never explained the text never went back to the text simply used the text as a Support

for his illustration.

And in terms of the number of people that were sitting in the sanctuary listening to it There were thousands of people there.

So it comes to the end of my wife looks at me and she says well that was a lot of nothing.

So what's happening.

Is that in in our churches the ministers who should be the precisionists now?

They are Giving into this kind of nothing of a church service and people are

thinking that just because they attend the church services that they've done in church and.

But the Puritans they don't allow you to be or remain complacent or or none of them had

Had any kind of service like that ever?

You read you can't read a solid Puritan pamphlet or even a short sermon by one of them and

not be changed in some way.

And that doesn't mean that every single thing that they wrote was everything They

wrote was a lot better than a lot of stuff that we hear today, right?

You know, and if you could and if you could actually since we're running out of time.

I want you to have five minutes.

To summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject.

All right, and this is what I think is really important

talk about the Puritans as precisionists in that way because Precision isn't

going to help if it's not practically employed precision in Preaching precise

studied expository preaching is going to draw people closer to heaven or closer to hell.

That's what it does.

That's what the Puritans understood that it did and so every sermon that they studied every

sermon that they gave every book that they wrote.

Oftentimes which were compilations of sermons because they're

bringing people

Precise what what would happen granted they would

need to learn how to think well and to organize their sermon.

You can you know, certainly.

We have a really long bad sermon.

But that in turn raises the question on hermeneutics and that's a whole other topic for another time how to employ

studying.

Well, but whenever you read any of these great works It sticks in your mind

you know when I'm when I think about some of the great works that I've read

and How precise they were and how they helped me to be closer to Jesus

Christ.

It wasn't that and this is what I was saying in the very beginning about the Puritans are your heroes.

It's not that they're my heroes.

It's that they bring me closer to Christ.

So when I read John Brinsley's the union communion and conformity to Jesus Christ in his

death and resurrection.

The first thing that comes into my mind is Roman 6 5 where we have been planted together in the likeness of his death.

We shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection.

That is burned into my memory.

Because over and over and over again He's going to show you all the different angles to what that

actually means for the Christian.

Well, I remember even from some of the books that I read.

From my very beginning some of my first Puritan books James Janeway who wrote the Saints Encouragement to

diligence in Christ's service, which is a fabulous book second Peter 1 11 for so an entrance shall be

ministered.

Jesus Christ studied

another

Reformation

like the Reformation

the resources

to gleam

children using the

Two things that would immensely help them that all the Puritans did he'd

on homiletics or preaching tells you to do and that's right.

Even if you don't use it in the pulpit Spurgeon used to write out his sermon every they

did that is because

when that happens.

The minister has the ability then to look at

every

section of

purifying and so

forth.

Amen and if anybody listening wants to find out more about the Puritans you can go to a

Puritans mind calm a Puritans mind Calm.

You can also go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services website a very

thoroughly reformed Christian book ministry where you don't have to

worry about Purchasing things that they sell that are going to poison your mind with heresy or something.

It's a they're very.

Todd and Patty Jennings are very committed to the doctrines of sovereign grace and reformed theology.

And their website is CV for Cumberland Valley bbs4biblebookservice .com

CV bbs .com and also another sponsor of our solid ground Christian books.

They have quite a number of Puritan titles Available and they sponsor iron sharpens iron every week

solid ground books calm solid ground books

calm and Dr. McMahon in addition to a Puritans mind calm.

Do you have any other contact information? That you care to share with our listeners.

The only other would be Puritan publications.

Calm, that's where we have all of our books and All of the reprints that we do

more modernized and such we're actually going to be.

Launching another book to me and

ash every Christian should be zealous.

So great.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being such a fountain of knowledge on our program today.

And I definitely want to have you back on the program.

In fact, if you could hold on After the program goes off the air so I can open

up my calendar and schedule you again.

That sounds great, it's a pleasure to talk with you.

Yes, and I want to thank everybody who listened today and for those of you who submitted questions, especially I apologize

to those of you who could not have their questions read on air because we've run out of time.

But I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner as the great Christopher Love once said.

And I look forward to receiving your questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron and

Please remember to go to iron sharpens iron radio .com For more information on the pastor's luncheon and

the great debate next Thursday, January 12th and next Friday, January 13th.

That's iron sharpens iron radio .com and the banner ads are right at the top of the page.

I hope to see you there at the pastor's luncheon and the great debate.

God bless you.