Four Calls and then Overview of Issues in Church History

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:33

Greetings welcome to the dividing line. It is a Friday We're taking four calls right off the top of the program today plan to get done in No more than 90 minutes.

00:44

Maybe a little bit shorter than that. I'm going to be joining Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron this afternoon four o 'clock

00:52

Eastern Daylight Time, so That's why we're doing it early today so I can

01:01

Multitask in essence and beyond with Chris, so if you

01:08

Haven't been listening to iron sharpens iron you want to look them up, and we'll be doing two hours on the program today

01:15

So let's get to our phone callers who are obviously all on Twitter Well one maybe not but the rest of them are on Twitter, and that's how they got in and you might say well

01:28

That's not fair Well, if you think that's not fair There's a parable that Jesus told about the people hired to do work that you need to go read

01:35

And it's just just go with that so Okay, let's talk to Aaron in Washington.

01:42

I Aaron howdy dr. White. This is uh well I'm actually actually live in Moscow and go to Doug Wilson's church, so okay howdy from the

01:51

Moscow crew all right And thanks again for all your work you and rich both just wanted to ask so been listening to a lot of Intertextuality material between Old and New Testament and the discussion came up about The Jewish view of original sin and all of that kind of thing and how the person speaking didn't believe that federal headship was a fit because of the

02:16

So it's transgression came through one to spread to all men so that you know the redemption of one

02:24

Redeems all men and really it was just I guess my understand my question is am I to understand that I Mean I believe that federal headship is correct, but what

02:36

I'm trying to figure out is how does that exempt? how does Jesus come out with a Perfectly clean human nature is that what the is that what the virgin birth is supposed to kind of get around?

02:46

It's pretty important that guilt of Adam come through the male line, and that's why The virgin birth through Mary is it allows you just to be

02:54

Perfect. Well, that's certainly that's certainly traditionally how it's been understood

03:01

There is obviously that very Unusual aspect of the

03:09

Lord's nature and many people have Understood that I mean that's not

03:14

Paul's point in Romans 5 though By paralleling Jesus with Adam Adam certainly did not have a standard parentage either so Maybe that's where the maybe that's where the parallel is

03:28

But there's no question that That the teaching of Romans chapter 5 is there's two humanities one in Adam one in Christ in one you have death and one you have life if you everybody's in the one but only certain people are in in the other and that's the key issue of Justification by faith and the covenant community and everything else

03:47

Now as to what Jews believed prior to Paul well the

03:54

Jews believed a lot of things prior to Paul and you can the the intertestamental literature is extremely broad and There's there's all sorts of things you can find in intertestamental literature.

04:07

I understand for example, I may take the time to listen to it that There's a new book out by Michael Heiser on demons that is a good example of when you take intertestamental literature as really extremely and Central to your interpretation of both the

04:29

Old and New Testaments But be as it may the the point is there it's it's a multi -faceted body of literature we don't have

04:40

We don't obviously have an exhaustive Record of what those people believed but what we do what has survived to our day

04:50

Illustrates many different streams of tradition and understanding and while those are interesting for us to be able to understand the disputes that were going on between Pharisees and Sadducees and Where the

05:03

Essenes may have come from and all the rest that kind of stuff It can't be made an interpretive

05:09

Lens that limits what you what the New Testament Apostles can teach and so I don't know how anybody would would know

05:17

What quote -unquote the Jews? Whenever you whenever somebody says well the

05:23

Jews believed I know that I'm talking to somebody that really doesn't know what they're talking about because There are and anyone who reads that literature goes well

05:35

This rabbi said this and that rabbi said that and we're not exactly sure what that rabbi meant by that But then there is this guy over here those are the people that have actually read that literature and Recognize that to go well the

05:49

Jews believed means you've probably got you know a

05:56

Horse in this race a dog in this race everybody put it you you're probably trying to find some way of promoting a particular perspective, so Can I ask a clarifying just to drill down on the on verse 19 of Romans 5?

06:11

Pathet stay me. I believe is the word in Greek is made or constituted for the one were made sinners

06:19

Made righteous is that like a declarative or is that maybe like a forensic sense or?

06:27

Because what I'm trying to understand is how Because it says earlier that the transgression of Adam That the transgression that came after Adam were not like the transgression of Adam and so I'm just kind of trying to figure out in What way are they made sinners by Adams?

06:43

Act yeah, well for as through the one man's disobedience Hoy pull away.

06:49

Yeah, you've probably heard you've probably heard that phrase before the Hoy pull away The other the other folks well, that's what it is here.

06:55

It's Hoy pull away Hoy pull away. Hamar. Toloi the the the many were constituted made it's cut this to me

07:06

You can It's it's a very very old all the histamine verbs are very very old verbs that's why anyone who learns

07:15

Greek hates them because they they don't fit into the nice neat categories of later verbs, but the through the

07:25

Disobedience of the one man sinners The many were made in the same way also through using the same preposition dia the obedience of the one and some

07:42

Some manuscripts I would imagine I'm just guessing here. But yeah that some manuscripts input put man, but simply the one

07:50

I'm Righteous and that's put in direct parallel to Hamar. Toloi Righteous same term

08:00

Cut this day me Hoy pull away. So you you have two Hoy pull aways One is constituted as sinners one is constituted as righteous and very much

08:13

The only way to understand this is within the law court concept that recognizes federal headships

08:20

Did you is there not? clear examples of this with the sin of Achan and the things that were in the very founding of the of the nation of Israel you have federal headship being acted out in the very actions of The the nation suffering for the actions of the king or Situation with Achan at AI and and examples like that.

08:45

So I'm not sure how You know, obviously there were Jews Prior to the days of Jesus who were very influenced by other things outside of Scripture And maybe they would have developed different understandings that more of a secularized understanding especially

09:03

Greek philosophy There are Jewish writers Philo and others that were deeply influenced by forms of Greek philosophy, too

09:11

That might not like that covenantal type of thinking but Certainly Paul is not out in in the boonies someplace.

09:23

He's not he's not Some strange no one's ever heard of that idea before in his argumentation but but yeah

09:33

There was there was lots of different perspectives that would have been represented and I would imagine that The debates that Paul had in in the synagogues would have been focused upon things like that as to exactly where in the midst of those traditions that understanding was falling so Well, just to just to tie the two pieces of the question together because you kind of pointed out the connection though Well, the argument originally was is that Romans 512 doesn't say that guilt is imputed all of humanity just sin or sergeant death

10:08

It comes to all humanity after that and I was kind of rationalizing in my mind that will 519 only makes sense if it's federal headship

10:16

It's in view here because you can't have somebody constituted legally as being, you know, declared a sinner, right?

10:22

and so it was just kind of referring to the tripartite fall of the Old Testament Genesis 3 6 and Babel so anyway, thank you yeah, you got it you have to to remember that if someone doesn't like if someone has a tradition and Therefore there is a passage of scripture.

10:41

They don't like they are there there will be ways to spin things and the in the final analysis the best way to determine if someone is engaging in meaningful exegesis is to Test the consistency of their hermeneutics across there all of their theology

11:03

But especially in those areas where it gets tough there. They're tough. They're tough passages scriptures

11:08

No one's gonna say that Romans 5 12 through 19 is is an easy text but Is the is the person really wanting to let the

11:19

Apostle define things or? Do they have an external idea that they are really trying to make sure doesn't get wrecked

11:27

By what the Apostle is saying and therefore they'll use one way of understanding Verse 12 that that ends up disconnecting verse 19 as you're as you notice the only way to really hold it together is to see it all as a consistent reality and Once you lose that you sort of lose the whole the whole the whole shooting match as as us old folks used to say

11:49

So, all right, Aaron, thanks for your phone call Thank you. Blessings to you and yours.

11:54

All right. God bless. Bye. Bye right, let's Go to Anthony in New Jersey.

12:01

Hi Anthony Hello, dr. White, how are you doing good? This is my second time calling

12:08

I just quickly want to say that rich has been nothing but pleasant every time Well now

12:14

We're very we're very we're very thankful that even though the Chinese are in control of the drug supply

12:20

We have been able to get a consistent flow of Whatever we have rich on to make him nice to people so Perfect perfect So my question is centered around the

12:35

Garden of Gethsemane Because you know out here in New Jersey, we have a kind of you know, take your pick of heresy we just have so many different types of heretical kids out here from the

12:48

Hebrew Israelites to Hebrew Israelites, they're they're just like Reformed Baptists, aren't they?

12:55

Yeah, just small differences When it comes to the oneness theology

13:04

I'm curious first of all if looking at the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus says not my will your will be done is a proper example of differentiating personhood between Christ and the

13:18

Father and also If it is a good example, then Do we see some sort of division of Will between Jesus and the

13:30

Father does that make sense? Well, yeah, so What what has to be remembered when you're when you're when you're talking about?

13:40

Jesus You're you're you're and and the relationship of the Father and then introducing the issue of will things get very very very complicated because This is where two

13:55

Unique realities of divine revelation intersect what I mean by that is the doctrine of the

14:02

Trinity There is nothing in the created order to which you can compare it because only

14:07

God exists in this fashion. Only God's being Is unlimited and hence could be shared by three persons

14:15

Therefore there's there's nothing you can compare that to in in the created order But then the incarnate one is likewise unique because there's only been one incarnation and there has only been one hypostatic

14:31

Union and the Requirements for Jesus to function as The proper sin bearer for the people of God are very specific and so it's those two that We're asking about here when in the garden

14:54

Jesus is my not my will but but yours be done Because there is in a sense the one will of God the the perfect consistency of Father Son and Spirit in the accomplishment of all divine actions

15:13

There can be no disunity in the Godhead All these things in talking about the one divine will but Jesus is one person with two natures and so he is a true human being as well and therefore to avoid the error of apollinarian ism, which certain well -known

15:38

Christian apologists have actually fallen into That I won't name but you can just look it up he calls it neo apollinarian ism, but anyways to avoid that idea where the human nature of Christ basically becomes just a

15:57

Physical manifestation rather than a true human nature, which is interesting in light of the last call

16:03

In fact, I was gonna do this rich But right right down the call topic so that we are not sitting here at the end of the program going

16:09

Well, it is about I don't know what they're about So Romans 5 and not my will but yours

16:15

Bonson Sproul and LDS slash precepts. So Do a screenshot do something and that way we can remember it's weird

16:22

We sit here at the end of the program and we just got done with the program then we sit there looking each other going So what were those calls about?

16:29

I don't remember. It's really weird It's very very strange. And I I think it's always sort of been that way.

16:36

So well, yeah We can't exactly blame it on the short -term memory thing because we were doing it That's the whole point.

16:41

I don't know why it works that way I want to blame it on the gray hair and the bald head, but it's always been that way

16:47

So anyways write these down but it's interesting because there is an interface between this and what the last question was is because How can

16:56

Jesus be? The proper second Adam the the the obedient man over against the disobedient

17:05

Adam if if his humanity was Not real or was only partial and so a human being has a will and so That's what is being when once you have the expression of the incarnate one

17:25

Speaking in the context of what he is going to do in the incarnate state

17:31

Then that's what you're looking at in the garden. That's a incredibly unique Situation in all of history that it had never happened before the incarnation and we only have we only have

17:49

John 17 and John 11 We just don't maybe the baptism briefly

18:00

Transfiguration maybe I'm just thinking of Times when there's communication between father and son. We don't have very much

18:06

In the divine revelation that could put us into a context where we can see this unique Relationship going on and and really when you think about it's a tremendous

18:20

Really a tremendous privilege to to get to hear two of the divine persons and the

18:26

Godhead speaking to one other but this happens within the context of the incarnation and so So this is the

18:35

Sun Speaking to the father but in the incarnate state and so the

18:42

Sun has a divine as a Divine nature, but the will that's being spoken of here is the will that submits to that of the father

18:53

And so we have to be careful. It's it's really easy to Get our systematic theologies out and read it back into a text when that may not have been exactly what the original author had in mind but in this

19:09

Context what is being said in for example Luke chapter 22 verse 42 is plainly the man

19:19

Jesus Speaking not of fear of death. I think it's important. We need to we need to recognize this

19:26

He's not speaking about fear of death. He's speaking about being made sin in behalf of of his people and that There there are many men who have gone to their deaths with with great bravery and and Jesus certainly could have done that as well

19:39

Yeah, but no one has Existed in perfect purity and yet then is made sin for us that that Again, the cross is the center point of history.

19:52

Absolutely unique As I was reviewing that LDA of the Islamic video a couple days ago

19:58

Same same issue there. We're talking about one of the most amazing ideas that has ever

20:06

Entered into the heart of man and it came from divine revelation. So that's how I would understand that It does indicate that Clearly this is not the thought this is not an internal conversation within Jesus Which is which is what you have in oneness theology that I've said many many times that that one is theology

20:27

And they know this if you listen to them talking to themselves. I Think the leaders today know that their responses

20:38

David Bernard and others their responses on the prayer life of Jesus are

20:44

Wishful thinking I think they I think in their more honest moments alone in the car and the walk in the woods, whatever it might be

20:52

They're like man, that really doesn't work Yeah, it's it's tough so and unfortunately a lot of a lot of evangelicals don't know the

21:04

Doctrine Trinity well enough to recognize that that's the real issue with oneness is the evidence of The personhood of the

21:13

Sun and the reality of the Sun as a divine person pre -existed the Incarnation most evangelicals

21:21

Wouldn't just don't know where to go and that's why there we don't make a lot of inroads there Yeah, you would just say that this is a pretty solid like example of two person well two persons in the sense of the

21:37

Incarnate person speaking to the divine person. They would argue. That's this is internal conversation

21:44

I'm thinking I'm thinking within the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is in in light of the preceding portion of the verse father if you are willing remove this cup from me, that's the

21:57

Sun as human being focusing upon what's coming and expressing to the father the the inexperienced really the inexpressible dread of Being made sin for his people.

22:15

We can't even I don't think we can we sing songs about it. We really can't begin to Understand what exactly that meant?

22:23

So I wouldn't use it as an indication of the eternal

22:31

Existence of the Sun because even from the oneness perspective to say yeah, but he's incarnate right now even from your perspective.

22:36

That's true But I would challenge the necessity on the part of the oneness person of saying this is actually an internal conversation where Jesus is having where the human side of Jesus is

22:52

Hoping the divine side of Jesus will find a way out of this. I mean because that's literally what you have instead of what is really going on and that is a the deep expression on the part of Jesus and it is important.

23:06

I think to notice Jesus knows what's coming When when if you adopt

23:14

What is taught in most seminaries today? Jesus didn't know what was coming and was was shocked at it all this becomes

23:25

Gibberish, we're wasting our time So if you if you went to Union Theological Seminary, all this is gibberish

23:32

Because they don't have a foundation there for even understanding it So it is important to recognize when we're doing apologetics with oneness folks.

23:40

We are doing apologetics at a much higher level There there's actually a lot of assumed stuff

23:47

That lays the foundation of talking to oneness folks We can't have a conversation with what oneness folks

23:55

That's a conversation worth having Because they have as high view of scripture as we do

24:04

Right oneness cannot exist within liberalism Oneness collapses as soon as liberalism enters in that's why they are so absolutely when you look at the

24:15

UPCI You know long dresses and head coverings there's a there's a reason for that because they recognize as soon as any type of diminishment of Old standards comes in it all falls apart

24:31

There's there's no backup for them. So so yeah, I think that's what's going on in in Luke 2242 if that's the text you're looking at it.

24:40

It's a primary one Great. Thank you. Okay. Thanks for your call today All right.

24:45

God bless. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. I Went long on that. Sorry about that Matt and Jacob. Let's talk to Matt.

24:52

Hi Matt Oh, man, Matt, oh boy Matt and Jacob are both in California Let us stop the program right now have a word of prayer for our brothers who are under communist control

25:04

Help us help help Hi, dr. White. So so Matt, how long is your hair now?

25:13

I Cut it myself I cut my hair myself every morning in the showers

25:23

Rich cut his too, and it's it's horrific. It really is. I've managed not to laugh, but it's okay

25:30

Well, I'm also the one caller who didn't get in through Twitter. So it's kind of not fair and I've borne the heat of the day and More than a denarius, okay

25:42

Well, hmm, I think you didn't read that parable closely So my question then

25:52

Really what prompted my question was the the program that you had with dr. Jason Lyle About presuppositional apologetics and man.

26:00

I've really appreciated his work and I've appreciated Bonson's work and So I've sort of grown up on Sproul and it was hard for me to disagree with Sproul on apologetics and but I ended up having to do it

26:16

You gotta remember when you're talking to RC that RC doesn't mind if you disagree with him at all, you know

26:23

What's wrong with you people only works for some people? well now now you've got me down a rabbit trail because You you said once I think

26:33

As far as like why why did Sproul not see the the truth of presuppositional apologetics?

26:40

And you said once it may have been his his love for Aquinas. I love Thomas. Yeah, I love Thomas Yeah, but Bonson Bonson in one of his programs said that that actually it was his

26:50

You know Gerstner was a classical and yeah Gerstner had some fallout with Van Til once and it just became something where where if Sproul Started moving toward presuppositional apologetics.

27:02

It would be sort of a backhanded. Yeah Thing I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure there are multiple. I'm sure there are multiple reasons.

27:09

I did not have The the couple of times that I had

27:14

RC's ear personally We went on a cruise in Hawaii it was it was

27:23

G James Kennedy's cruise he had that terrible heart attack And they asked me and RC to take his place on this probably more much more

27:32

RC than me But on this cruise and so I got to spend some time with RC.

27:38

This was after his stroke but he was still in real good spirits and fresh of mind and Unfortunately, most of the conversations were on issues having to do with like federal vision ism and a few things like that we didn't have a whole lot of time to discuss this particular area and In hindsight,

28:03

I wish I wish we had but yeah Obviously you are if you if there's someone who has been a particular mentor to you

28:12

You are you are it's just natural that you are going to not only adopt their their viewpoints, but even when you differ you're gonna try to differ in a very respectful way and Maybe in a muted fashion if if need be and I don't think there's anything really wrong with that So, you know, this is this is an issue where I Listened to the bonds of sprawl debate

28:42

Probably 20 years ago. I have not listened since then I should but I'm really busy.

28:48

So so But what I appreciated was it was collegial

28:55

It was focused. I thought it was really useful I'd recommend it to people to to consider what the real issues are what the fundamental issues are and Obviously from my perspective it wasn't an issue that required

29:12

Laying down fire and and and digging trenches and doing all the rest that kind of stuff

29:20

Which unfortunately happens a lot in social media on these issues yeah, they were really respectful and I Even though now

29:30

I'm a flaming Presuppositionalist I still Really respectful towards sprawl and I'm sure

29:35

But anyway here. I have a question about that debate and and I know you haven't listened to it for 20 years

29:42

Yeah, maybe some of the topics you're from you're really familiar with presuppositional apologetic, so sprawl sprawl had mentioned that Calvin talked about the difference between immediate revelation and immediate revelation

29:58

Okay, and I think I think the idea there is that you know, the law of God written on your heart, right? There's there's some immediate revelation where you don't have to God doesn't reveal himself to you through the means of some mediation.

30:11

There's a sense in which You know, the law of God is written on your heart. It doesn't require your eyeballs or Whatever right?

30:19

Right, but then but then the immediate revelation would be God revealing himself through the things that were created and and a recognition that You know, you look up at the starry host and know that that you know, the divine something of the divine right?

30:36

from like Romans 1 but Bonson seemed to have a problem with that He said it seemed like he wasn't willing to admit that there was immediate revelation and immediate well, because that sounds like the way that you've described it sounds like a division of one

30:57

Aspect of revelation, which is considered general revelation And so it seems like that is a that is an attempt to make a division

31:10

Regarding what gets through so so in Romans 1 it is interesting and and and this may have something to to to do with that, but when

31:22

I normally when I Are translate when I'm translating this

31:28

Section and says for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes eternal power and divine nature

31:35

Have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made So that they are without excuse now what has been made there is twice poyemosin

31:46

So are we a part of that or is that just the external? Creation For even though they knew

31:54

God they did not honor him as God to give. Thanks became futile in their speculations which heart was darkened Exchange glory the incorruptible

32:00

God so on and so forth so When it when it says Actually, it's verse 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them for God made it evident to them when it when it says in Them it's an

32:17

Altoise Which can be Can be translated amongst them or in them so the the

32:30

From 118 and following when you when you look at what's being said I always say

32:36

When we look outward we see it when we look inward we see it It sounds like what

32:42

Sproul was saying there Was looking at those two and making them separate categories immediate and immediate and Maybe that's what

32:52

Bonson was again. It's been 20 years, but maybe that's what Bonson was uncomfortable Doing is dividing the one revelation that that in verse 19 says for God Manifested it

33:07

Altoise to them. So it's it's God's manifestation. It's his intention that it function to communicate this information because That's what leaves them.

33:20

What's the last word of verse 20 on Apollo gate is without without an excuse so Maybe there was maybe there was something

33:29

I I I do have it on the list of things I want to get back to but I got people sending me books and it's just And the

33:37

Wilson stuff's keeping me busy, but I do want to get back to it And listen to it again because you're not the first person who's asked with a call to the question about it

33:45

But I I'm wondering if maybe Bonson was either Pre -empting a direction.

33:52

He thought Sproul might go or was sensing that Sproul was going to in some way insist that by dividing

34:00

What general revelation actually accomplishes that he was opening up some type of role for natural theology or something along those lines

34:08

I I don't I don't know But whatever the last phrase of verse 19 for God Manifested to them means it results in the fact.

34:20

They're on Apollo gate ooze in verse 20 yeah, and Sorry.

34:25

Yes, so Listening to that debate and I've listened to it a bunch of times and actually an interesting thing is that the church that I belong to we had a visit from Vern Poythress and I was it we're able to sit down and speak to him and speak to his wife who was a student of R .C.

34:41

Sproul's and She you know Vern Poythress is a presuppositional listen She was really saying that Sproul underneath a lot of it was presuppositional at heart and During the debate.

34:56

Well, we know he's a positionalist now. Oh, yeah Sproul during the debate was was

35:05

Acknowledging that Even you know the the distinction between media and immediate that it all gets through Yeah, right because God gets it through and and the problem is that the it's a suppression of what has gotten through and then he goes on a tear and he says things that the

35:23

Presuppositionalist would just delight to listen to and and Bonson even comments. He says I'm just so happy to hear you say all

35:30

That was a wonderfully presuppositional and I think at that point RC Recognize hang on.

35:37

I think I'm getting too close. I need to make sure I'm not betraying, you know, Gersh Gershner and And and he dialed back and started, you know, he started making more debate

35:48

II But they were really close. They were they were closer than than a lot. Yeah. Yeah new classical folks are to To Presuppositionalist, I mean, well, you know,

35:59

I'm convinced, you know Say say what you will when when I read the first the first book of the

36:06

Institute's man That sounds presuppositional to me. That's a that's about as clear as as as it can be.

36:12

I It just seems so consistent I'm not trying to read that back into Calvin in the sense that he's not living in the same context and that Surrounded by secularists and things like that, but yeah,

36:22

I think if he were that's how he would respond And so yeah, yeah most most definitely.

36:28

Well, hey, I hope that by 2022 you can you leave your house again over there in California if you can

36:38

Fine, you know get government approval or something like that. I'd pack some clothes and once you get across the border, it's good

36:45

So just just so you know But please do not bring the the the voting that people do in California with you over here to Arizona It's it's ruining our state.

36:55

It really is. Yeah, they'll never catch me alive. I'm ready. I'm ready They can come and get me no,

37:03

I'm just kidding I'm sorry.

37:10

What was that rich? The razor ribbon at the border. Yeah, I'm not sure.

37:15

I'm not really sure that we we have that up there So I had poor Jacob also in California has a waiting for 43 minutes

37:25

Jacob Thank you for hey, you've got nothing better to do you live in, California or are you that's right?

37:32

That's right. Are you an essential worker? I Technically am

37:38

I farm almond so farming is essential here. Well, I thank you very much for continuing to grow food

37:44

We sort of need it and so does everybody else in the world But let's not talk about that What could we do for you?

37:52

So I just got done last month reading a Always ready by Bonson and the first volume of Antonicing Fathers and it got me thinking

38:00

I called a couple weeks ago about LDS apologetics and How does pre -suppositional apologetics fit in with?

38:09

Apologetics towards people who already believe there is a God and the basis for morality and all those things, right?

38:15

Yeah, that's a very very common question and there are You get slightly different answers depending in my experience on the experience of the apologists in dealing with people from other religions one of the

38:32

Most common questions is well, how would you apply? presuppositional ism to the conflict with Islam because because you're asking about Mormonism, but Mormonism is a polytheistic religion and It's pretty obvious that you have to be able to deal with That there can be no transcendental proof of God within Mormonism, obviously

39:00

Because there is no God who's the actual ground of all being and so it's pretty easy to see how

39:07

You could apply the internal critique of the system and in fact most

39:15

Christians even strongly anti presuppositional Christians will sort of By nature get very presuppositional with Mormons because they recognize that The the view of God that they are presenting is so radically different That you can't have a meaningful conversation about who

39:38

Jesus is or what salvation is or anything else Because they don't have a God who created all things

39:44

Their their God once lived on another planet and he had a God before him and a God before him and so there are so many foundation foundational ontological questions that that can't be answered that there's no way to ground

39:57

Holiness or or grace or anything in a an exalted man from another planet.

40:04

It's just it's just not possible. And so It's sort of people just sort of naturally start going presuppositional at that point by saying well you

40:13

They start providing that internal critique of the system saying your system doesn't make any sense You can't have a you can't have an increasing number of gods

40:22

When you go backwards in time, you got to get back to the first God and what was he before he was a god?

40:27

well, according you is a man so now you get a man without a god and It just doesn't doesn't make any sense. So normally it's

40:34

Islam that is that is posited as the real challenge because Islam has a singular

40:42

God who creates all things everything that exists flows from his will and so You know, it's it's easy enough to say.

40:53

Well, you still provide the internal critique and so on a on a transcendental level Well, I'll mention this

41:02

I was really really interested I don't know it was about four years ago

41:08

A Friend of mine who is a Muslim has been very kind to join me when

41:14

I was teaching at various seminaries Join me via Skype since he lives on the other side of the planet

41:21

He normally is up at like three o 'clock in the morning to do that or one o 'clock I forget what it was hiding in a closet, but He's joined my classes to talk with my students and One of my students asked a question

41:35

About the issue of love because if you've heard people talking with with Muslims one of the questions

41:40

I'll ask is well, how can you understand the nature of love within a radical monad? Unitarian concept how can

41:48

God be love? Eternally if there is no object of love prior to the creation itself and I Was really taken aback when my

42:01

Muslim friends said, you know When I first started doing all this that most of us just laughed that question off But the more

42:07

I thought about the more I realized I'm not sure we've got a good answer for that That's one of the reasons. I love this guy is because he's

42:14

He listens Many of my Muslim friends don't listen He does he reads he listens he thinks and I owe him an email right now, too

42:24

So he's listening I'll get to you. I'm just behind and stuff but That is that is one of the questions is

42:35

If you were to sit down most conversations that you have with Muslims are not going to be on the level where There's going to be a major difference between a presuppositionalist and an evidentialist and the reason for that is not because our

42:53

Approaches are really just the same thing It's because of the massive language barrier and The massive amount of ignorance that the

43:04

Muslim has about what it is. We're saying in the first place. In other words You spend most of your time Correcting misapprehensions so you can get a basic message communicated

43:13

But in those situations where you can really get into a meaningful conversation then

43:22

Yeah, you're going to be Dealing with the consistencies of The two positions and that's where you provide the internal critique

43:31

So it's not you're you're not Presenting a transcendental argument because they already accept the existence of a creator

43:39

God but you are seeking to demonstrate that given their rejection of The divine revelation of that God in Jesus Christ.

43:49

This creates an incoherence That does not match up and it's interesting over the years

43:56

I know I haven't been doing it as much recently, but over the years I've commented many times on this program about the reality that in That as I listen to Muslims talking about the heretical movements within their own

44:13

Faith at least what they consider to be heretical movements in their own faith very often it is the natural desire for them to fill in What has been taken from them by their rejection of who

44:30

Jesus was? Prophetically. So in other words Muhammad ends up taking the place of Jesus Muhammad ends up the some

44:36

Muslims end up celebrating Muhammad's birthday and Muhammad in the in the Hadith ends up being a mediator and the the

44:45

Sufis Go toward the charismatic side of things because there is a spiritual nature to man that simply isn't fulfilled by a

44:58

Worshiping a monad When you think about it when you think about the role of the Holy Spirit there is a

45:07

Really important extension God is is bringing us

45:12

To himself God is enabling our worship that there's that Incredible text.

45:18

I'm not sure anyone's ever fully figured out in in Romans 8 He intercedes with us he intercedes for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.

45:25

I mean there is a truly supernatural and personal aspect of of What happens in worship that we are often not focused upon and should be

45:39

But but we're often not part of that's because I'll be honest with you you've heard if you've listened very long you've heard me say this most

45:46

Evangelical Christians do not worship as Trinitarians. They worship as monotheists, but they don't worship as Trinitarians and Right that tremendously diminishes.

45:55

I think the the the depth of our of our worship But so anyway,

46:01

I wandered off there But so so yeah, it it it obviously is gonna look different than when you're talking with an atheist

46:10

Right, but I'm still very sensitive to not be Putting the

46:16

Muslim in the position of judging God either But but the thing is they're not they're not tending to want to do that to begin with So so presuppositional ism is not this, you know

46:27

This cookie cutter you use this one argument and everybody comes out the other end as a Christian type thing and it does however influence how you're thinking about the

46:39

How you're gonna provide the internal critique to a system that? uses that says our our law and our gospel are revelations from God and That there's one true

46:52

God. So how do you how do you deal with that? And how do you you know? Where do you draw the line?

46:57

I mean, how about oneness? Now you've now you've got someone as the exact same canon And now you're now you're talking about is is presuppositional ism something that you apply to heresies because mostly early church believed

47:13

Mostly early church mostly early Christians after the rise of Islam that encountered Islam viewed it as a

47:20

Christian heresy not as a totally separate religion, so What does that do when you're dealing with heresy?

47:27

I think I'd be I think honestly, that would be a really really really good book for an up -and -coming presuppositionalist to to write some of us are getting too old for this type of thing, but I think maybe there might be some listening the audience going ah

47:45

Yeah, exactly because if you if you if you can clarify the line

47:52

Between what is a completely another religion and heresy?

47:58

within the faith Then that's gonna really I think shed some light on exactly how a presupposition this needs to be consistent in the application along those lines

48:08

Yeah, so all right, man. I have gone for nearly an hour on four calls.

48:13

This is ridiculous I am the wordiest person on the planet. I'm trying to do it quickly.

48:19

And what do I do? I sit here talking forever I'm sorry, what were you saying? Would you recommend any reading?

48:26

So I've read font and I have on the schedule this year frame all of font and ventil, but it seems like from these readings, it seems like That presuppositionalism is mainly for the atheist

48:40

Well, is there any book out there? That would be kind of more maybe I'm just misreading what

48:45

I've been reading But I know one that would explain more apologetics Well, all of it. Yeah all of it does have a chapter on on the issue of Islam and I'd like to sit down and talk with him about sometime because I Wasn't ex

49:01

I went. Okay. I see what you're saying But how many Muslims have you talked to?

49:07

What sort of was sort of the thought process that I had that particular point in time? So you'll you'll you'll get a sense of of the different differing emphases between all of those

49:19

Individuals and I don't think that that's a bad thing I think that that's that's actually a good thing because it can help to clarify stuff

49:26

But right now I wouldn't know what to direct it. You've got all the right names. You got all the right books

49:31

I don't know of one that goes into that particular area though to any particular depth

49:38

So I couldn't recommend anything more beyond that. So, all right. Well, yeah Thank you

49:43

Ben huge encouragement to get me to read the well You got plenty of time to do it you're in California, you know, yeah,

49:50

I've been reading four hours a day It's crazy, but it's awesome.

49:55

I've never read the Church Fathers and I my mind is blown well, well, yeah Yeah, that's that's really interesting because when you said you were reading

50:02

You know the the Anton I seen fathers I've obviously recommended that but I hope

50:08

I also provided enough Context that a lot of people pick that up and expect to be reading

50:14

R .C. Sproul you and you're not reading R .C. Sproul It's it's difficult and part of that is

50:23

The context is is we even when you read the preface materials

50:29

Which is often very very useful There is an assumption especially on scholars who do that kind of stuff that the people reading will already know a lot about Roman culture

50:38

Greek culture Stuff like that and most people don't and it ends up being a real challenge.

50:44

Yeah, no trace about I had to set aside After the first book I was just so lost

50:50

Yeah, what you and I was listening to you at the same time. I was I had to set it aside I was so lost when he was talking about.

50:56

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there's yeah Well, especially if you're talking about against heresies

51:02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's not easy to read Once you but the reality is

51:10

Irenaeus's work on Gnosticism was our primary source for a long time And then when

51:15

Nag Hammadi was discovered lo and behold, he was pretty spot -on He I mean you

51:20

I mean he's faulted by people for You know condemning them as heretics and blah blah.

51:26

Well, duh But it's but he was he did a good job in representing what the other side said, which is which is encouraging

51:34

Anyways, alright Jacob, thanks for your phone call today. Thank you. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Well, that was cool

51:40

Did you write those all down? Oh Okay. Well, it's about to close the screen.

51:46

So Yeah Yes, I did yes, I and I saw that one of the topics that what

51:52

I need to put up there is riches on Chinese drugs I'll I'll try to put that in there and people will people will make memes and Lots of weird stuff's gonna happen.

52:07

So so there you go Apple cider vinegar

52:17

Love that stuff. Hey look I Real quickly before I jump back into what

52:25

I was saying. I got word last night. I'm really bummed they moved the triple

52:32

Yep, I had signed up for the double triple bypasses first time they're gonna be offering it. Oh, wait a minute

52:41

I need to explain that That one race. Well, it's not technically a race, but it is for those of us ride it

52:51

I Don't do much in the way of vacations, but I do leave in July and I preach at churches and I've done debates and and I it's a working vacation type thing, but my sanity

53:05

You know, you know people think that I just sit around reading books all day and and writing and it's just not the case

53:12

I've already been on bike two hours today. I burned 1 ,509 calories doing that I was

53:18

I was listening I was studying While while doing that, but that's a real important part of who

53:25

I am. I think it keeps me from blowing up and getting Like Arthur W pink and hating everybody

53:33

Think if he had ridden a bike he probably would have been better off toward the end But anyway,

53:38

I go to Colorado started going to Colorado in 2011 It's it's beautiful beautiful beautiful.

53:44

I do high altitude riding up there And one of the things I've been doing for years and years called the triple bypass and for a number of years

53:50

I did the double triple bypass which in two days is 240 miles on bike with 21 ,000 feet of climbing all at altitudes between 7 ,500 and 12 ,000 feet above sea level so it's intense

54:07

And you remember, you know For years, I've stayed with the same family up there doing the dividing lines from the basement down there.

54:15

That's Unfortunately, not something we're gonna be able to continue doing in the future, but it was a great to have that opportunity about what we did well

54:24

They hadn't offered the double double triple for years and that's the hardest thing I can do It's literally the hardest thing you can do and I think when you train yourself to do something's extremely extremely hard it

54:34

It makes you better for other things That you're that you're doing in life Unfortunately, they've now moved it to September.

54:42

In fact, I think it's smack dab in the middle of the cruise. And by the way, I spoke with the folks and Next we're supposed to do a conference call next week still looking an 80 % chance

54:55

That the cruise will go off that we will be able to do it. I don't know about you

55:02

But for those of you who are already signed up We better make this happen because I'm not so certain if this doesn't happen this year that'll ever happen again.

55:14

I mean seriously If you want to see some of these places at least you know, at least

55:21

I've been there once But you saw how fast Israel shut down And I'm I'm concerned about the the future of our being able to travel as freely as we have in the past So I really hope it happens because I can tell you right now

55:40

That that goes into October There will be an October surprise

55:46

There will be I can pretty much guarantee that there's gonna be an October surprise I don't know what the nature of it's gonna be

55:52

But there will be an October surprise if you don't know what October surprise is you're too young to have been through too many presidential elections

56:00

Now, of course our October surprise may have been in February and it's just in a continue continuation of all that mess, but but anyways

56:11

So I won't be able to do it in September and I'm really really really royally bummed about that I'm hoping my other rides later

56:20

Because Jason Lyle and I are supposed to be doing a conference in Colorado Springs Right toward the end of July early

56:27

August. And so that would coincide with What's called the

56:32

Copper Triangle and the Bob Cook They're only a week apart toward the end. And yeah, they're insane high -altitude craziness, too.

56:41

So so I'm looking at going up to Utah instead and I just I let

56:52

Jason know last night. So we're gonna start talking about What I can do Nope, but there are some

57:02

There are some rides That I have done out of Salt Lake up to what's called guards in the past.

57:08

That's nine thousand five hundred and fifty feet of OC level and up to the Alta ski resort that if you

57:15

Do the one then the other and then that one again Would be almost 13 ,000 feet of climbing in one day and if I did that two days in a row that would be very much as Gut -killing as as a double so I've got to have

57:38

I've got to have something like that to be working toward I'm thinking about going outside tomorrow to do a metric century.

57:45

It's 100 kilometer bike ride That means I got to get up No later than 3 o 'clock in the morning and you've got to have a reason to get up at 3 o 'clock in the morning on a

57:53

Saturday Otherwise the the the body which is fast moving towards 60 years of age goes go back to sleep you idiot

58:02

You got to have the other voice that goes. Nope You're not gonna get up that mountain if you don't get out there and get this done.

58:08

So yeah, that's That's what's going on there. So I'm bummed about About the cancelling of that I was really really really concerned about that, but we'll see what happens

58:19

We'll see what happens But I'm really hoping really really really hoping that we will be able to to do the cruise

58:26

Like I said top the hour in an hour and a half from now. I will be on Iron sharpens iron

58:35

With Chris Arntzen and then next Thursday evening. So a week ago last night

58:42

Emilio Ramos and I are going to Red Grace Media, we're going to I'm gonna be live with Emilio and The only time

58:53

I've been to Israel was with Emilio and so So he can tell you about climbing

59:01

Masada and and There's lots of things that Amelia could tell you about but there's lots of things

59:07

I can tell you about Emilio, too. That's like assured mutual destruction

59:14

So it's how Russia in the United States kept the world safe in the 1960s as we knew there wouldn't be anything

59:19

But smoking ruins the other one left So that's like that's how you do that too.

59:25

Anyway, I'm gonna be on with Emilio Next Thursday evening. So put that on your on your calendar as well.

59:32

We're gonna be talking about textual critical issues and So we'll be we'll be doing that now Make sure

59:39

I do not close that screen so that I don't lose that stuff now Yesterday I Presented you with some some information

59:53

I And I have taken I put on I put the scan on Facebook I took a picture with my phone

01:00:01

The page on Facebook. I will try to get that I'll try to add that to yesterday's blog article when

01:00:08

I'm blogging today's I I jetted at it I told you all that I had a perishable thing coming.

01:00:17

I Should have known that given how late it was two weeks late. It was already toast, but it was delivered like 1230

01:00:24

I didn't get home to like 430. So four hours sitting on a porch in Phoenix at 105 degrees Have You ever seen a nice big plastic thing of dark chocolate -covered almonds when it's slush,

01:00:41

I mean you can literally go like this and it just it just Slushy slushies back and forth in the oh, it's sort of disgusting looking actually

01:00:51

But tastes fine Just spoon and it's yeah, it's it's not it's not difficult.

01:00:58

Are you looking up the picture? Oh He's looking at the picture. I took a picture of it Because I got a spoon out and you know, you just gotta you know

01:01:06

Find an almond and there'll be plenty of chocolate still on it I stuck it in the refrigerator and then

01:01:12

I realized well, that's just gonna make it a hard mass I've actually been sitting around going.

01:01:18

Well, how do I make like Almond chocolate brittle out of this or something like that Do I do

01:01:23

I do I get out of a cookie pan and and let it sit outside? Yeah, there it is. There's I didn't have to rush yesterday.

01:01:32

In other words, I Did not have to rush because that's what came out of the box

01:01:39

I Ordered it when it was still cool. We did not have a spring this year.

01:01:45

Remember we were sitting out on the porches It was beautiful at night. It was in the 70s. That's what

01:01:50

I ordered and it took so long because of all the silliness with the stuff that We just went straight into the 90s we had like three days in the 90s and Straight up to 107.

01:02:03

I've seen 109 on my on my car Actually at home we saw I saw one 110 .6

01:02:09

at home a couple days ago. So yeah, it's uh, it's it's summer and so That's what was left.

01:02:18

That's what's still sitting there at home. But yeah, I Maybe cookie sheet that was sort of I'd be interesting.

01:02:24

I'm not sure how that all worked. But anyway You're just talking a lot today.

01:02:30

Yes, so yesterday we we looked at a certain quotation from Wilson's dissertation which reads for Augustine comma quote to become a mannequin was to depart little if at all for being a

01:02:46

Christian in quote and then I read you where that came from and we discovered that it It's badly misrepresenting

01:02:52

Augustine and being used in such a way I have I have made The statement and and I stand by the statement that it is it is very plain to me that Even and and this is this is simply a place where we have to say, okay

01:03:11

We're in disagreement on this but where it is plain to me that Dr.

01:03:18

Wilson went into this study with a fixed idea and Then dug up what he needed to find

01:03:26

To substantiate that that is my conclusion. I think I will be able to substantiate that very very clearly

01:03:33

From the data and I think that that data did in fact Substantiate that rather rather well

01:03:40

So I want to go back There are a couple things I have on my list In in looking at the dissertation here one was

01:03:52

I want to work through well, let me just let me back up a thing. What would be most useful for you as the audience and What would be most useful to you in the audience in two ways one

01:04:08

We didn't start this this dissertation was being presented as the most scholarly in Insightful important work on Augustin ever done no one else had ever seen what

01:04:22

Ken Wilson had discovered and It is demonstrative of The reality that if you're reformed you're really nothing more than a lackey for the

01:04:38

Manichaeans in the modern world That's what we were being told at the start, right?

01:04:44

Yes, the word comes to mind the words smoking gun It was presented as the smoking gun against Calvinism.

01:04:50

Oh, yeah, there is there there, you know, this was this book first started circulating and Then hey, if you haven't if you can't

01:05:00

James why can't deal with this? This is it. This is so far beyond him He can't touch it. Well, all right,

01:05:06

I I'll admit I'll take a challenge You know, I think I was probably one of the first people to read

01:05:12

Bart Ehrman's a doctoral dissertation before debating him I've read a lot of doctoral dissertations and I'm working on one myself.

01:05:19

And so I know what's required And in fact, one of the things I'm thinking about doing is

01:05:25

I'm working on a certain section of mine My mind isn't going very fast right now for one simple reason and kovat has not helped with this

01:05:35

I my data set For my Dissertation work in examining p45 will increase by 55 %

01:05:44

When mark is released? from The people working on CB GM and mark in Munster.

01:05:52

It's already done. I Was told that a year and a half ago when I went to Munster that mark was done

01:05:58

It was just a matter of getting it published getting it online Um kovat has not helped with any of this stuff obviously, especially in Germany, I mean

01:06:11

We're complaining about the lockdown in Arizona We got it really good.

01:06:17

I mean, I'll be honest. We we joke with you folks, California. I honestly do feel for you Because we really haven't been locked down here

01:06:26

Yeah, there's I can't we've been locked down in the sense that I've been going to certain restaurants to try to help keep them alive

01:06:38

So I you know, I pick up my order and and I mean this one restaurant, you know, which one I'm talking about I just call and it's like hey

01:06:46

Scott. Hey James. I'll put it in. Thanks You know and you go by and they even

01:06:51

I always put the same tip in about 35 % they just Automatically just bill me that now.

01:06:58

So I didn't have to write it in It's just all I gotta do is thanks. See you later. Talk to you later. Bye, you know

01:07:04

So I'm just trying to help them in that way but It's not like When I'm driving down the road the last thought of my mind is that there's gonna be flashing lights behind me

01:07:16

And a cops gonna pull me over. What are you doing out? That's just that's not Arizona. That's that's even here in Phoenix That's not

01:07:22

Arizona People in other places it is most definitely I get it.

01:07:28

I mean man that poor chick in Canada. Ah on the on the

01:07:33

May 4th in a stormtrooper outfit and people are calling 9 -1 -1 cuz she's got a blaster

01:07:39

Oh my goodness the level of stupidity on the part of everybody not her But everybody don't even get me started on that.

01:07:47

I'm sorry. Anyway, how'd I get into this anyways? So that's why

01:07:54

My things have been slowed down is When your data sets getting can increase by 55 % tomorrow because it could all of a sudden

01:08:03

I might see the announcement It's now available and man talk about ordering something fast That that's gonna change that's gonna come when that happens

01:08:14

I'm just gonna tell everybody right now I'm gonna have to prioritize Very very very strongly and there's good.

01:08:23

There may be some of you going. Oh, you didn't finish doing this. Yeah, that's right that's right because You know, but I'm still working on other stuff and I've really thought about putting out

01:08:38

A section of The work that I'm doing and Saying I'll tell you what let's make this fair I will provide this to dr.

01:08:48

Wilson and Like dr. Wilson critique my work on p45 utilizing

01:08:56

CBGM Technology in regards that would specifically Be in the book of Acts because that's all we've got with p45 and CBGM is acts mark

01:09:07

We'll have we'll have it as well. That's why It's really important John would have it as well, but only in John 10 11

01:09:14

Well, there's one verse in chapter 4 chapter 5. Well covers but almost nothing there

01:09:22

And eventually Matthew and Luke but don't know when they're gonna be coming out So there would be other stuff but make it fair I suppose

01:09:32

But it also I think would illustrate a Very major difference in how you approach doing scholarship a very major difference really does

01:09:43

But I'll do it I would have absolutely no qualms about doing that at all

01:09:51

So I was thinking about that so like I said when I when we're going through this stuff

01:09:57

I Want to benefit a number of people but this audience is

01:10:06

Filled with people who have interest in reform theology interest in textual criticism interest in church history

01:10:12

Interest in theology in general You want to be able to respond when people say

01:10:18

I reform theology is nothing but Manichaeanism But at the same time I Want to give enough background on these things that you're learning more about church history as well

01:10:28

Because this is going to be so useful in dealing with Mormonism and Islam I want the the study to be more than just demonstrating that this one theory is

01:10:40

Utterly indefensible because it is I Want it to be so much more edifying to a much broader audience than that So to do that What do we need to focus upon do we need to examine every single page of 300 some odd, you know 350 some odd pages

01:11:05

Really Actual text is probably more like 280 some along those lines When you get when you get all into it, is that what we need to do?

01:11:15

or is there a briefer way of doing that that would be more effective because It would focus in upon that.

01:11:23

So as I as I look at the dissertation, obviously it's

01:11:28

Discussion of the backgrounds has to be dealt with because here's here's the backgrounds are listed

01:11:35

You've got Gnosticism, Stoicism, Cicero or Kikoreo depending on how you pronounce it,

01:11:41

Judaism and Thankfully the ancient first temple period

01:11:46

Tanakh Second temple period and Apocrypha the Qumran sect

01:11:52

Philo and Rabbinic literature that at least is a meaningful That's a meaningful breakdown of what you would have to look at That would be relevant at this at this point.

01:12:07

It's meaningful I don't know that he consistently follows that because as we see later on he talks about Jews believe this and it's like which one you know, we already pointed out then after Judaism Neoplatonism So Ptolemy and other

01:12:23

And Manichaeism, which we've already started doing some work on And you've probably already picked up most of what you need on the

01:12:35

Manichaeism Then we already started looking at chapter 2 traditional free -choice

01:12:41

Christian authors from 95 to 215

01:12:47

And why 215 well I'm not sure why I broke exactly there. But once you get in the middle of the third century there you

01:12:55

Manny starts coming along So maybe you know, but so we already looked at Clement We looked at the pistol of Dionysius epistle to Diognetus, sorry

01:13:07

And this is where he's going through and I don't know that I'm gonna have time to do this. There would be value in Looking at this because one of the primary arguments that he makes is there is this absolute unanimity

01:13:21

Everybody believes the same thing and what I have said from the beginning was this was not the subject of debate at this time in church history

01:13:29

You don't find entire books on this topic The the energy is on other subjects and there are many people who have taught church history for years

01:13:43

That have said the exact same thing So while it would be it was useful to look at like how he handled

01:13:51

Clement and completely ignored with one exception The evidence there that very plainly would point the other direction

01:14:04

For a lot of this it would be just an extensive investment of time then you have other

01:14:11

Chapter 3 traditional free choice Christian authors from 216 to 430 then you've got Augustine's works And so you're going through Augustine's works all the way through sermons letters of chapter 9 and Part of the argument there is did

01:14:26

Augustine go back and edit and Change later books and that's already that that's already a given people already admit that he did that because he said he did that But did he did it?

01:14:37

Did he did it? Did he do that without telling us on? On other in other instances is is what is addressed there and that's not a great interest

01:14:48

Import to me but chapter 10 is important and that is

01:14:53

Augustine's exegesis of scripture and that's what we are starting to look at Because that's where I really really feel that there is an incredible bias

01:15:07

Demonstrated by by dr. Wilson in his handling of Augustine But then of course you got the conclusion the conclusion lays all this stuff out and that's really

01:15:21

Where you then have what comes into what's going to impact most people most people aren't going to read this

01:15:27

Most people are reading this where this come up with the incredible conclusions that comes up with that if you're a reformed

01:15:33

Christian, you're actually a Manichaean and and that that your beliefs on this subject of Determinism actually came from man from from from Manny and not from reading the

01:15:48

Institutes and following the exegesis that Calvin provides of Key texts in Hebrew or Greek and things like that.

01:15:55

It's actually all from Manny That's what you get into in the conclusion so so What has to be established by this is dissertation is a meaningful

01:16:08

Definition of the duped concept When I say meaningful that means it it can't be an artificial

01:16:17

Construct that is simply meant to connect things that have no meaningful connection in history or real life in logic

01:16:27

Anybody can come up with a way to connect disparate things together The reality is is it

01:16:34

Something that is drawn from the text or is it something that is crammed into the text?

01:16:41

That's the key issue and it is painfully obvious that No matter how great

01:16:50

Augustine's influence is upon Calvin, for example that from Calvin onward there has been tremendous work done in Demonstrating the biblical foundations of Reformed Theology and Trying to dismiss that by simply saying yeah, well, but the early church

01:17:12

And we already have addressed this but I want to make sure one does understand that issue of the early church

01:17:19

Seems to me that in in in the interview and in some of the statements are remaining being made

01:17:25

That that the early centuries become the exegetical lens through which everything else is supposed to be viewed they don't do that in Their own in their wider theology, but on this subject you're supposed to there's an inconsistency there major inconsistency there so if we demonstrate

01:17:48

What the historical context was and that it's? The people were not cranking books out in every generation on the subject of foreknowledge and divine election and predestination

01:18:04

And then Eventually, I do want to have at least some attention paid to the issue of The amazing comments made especially in the popularized book about Augustine and the doctrine of baptism

01:18:19

Augustine and the doctrine of faith as a gift And asserting that this somehow is derived from Manichaeism and stuff like this

01:18:32

When there were all sorts of people before Augustine who had understood Ephesians 2 in that way That kind of stuff we will be useful because it gets us into exegesis

01:18:43

It gets us into all sorts of issues along those lines as well But Yeah, that's that's the sort of the plan of attack to to work through this stuff, so While it would be more fun for me.

01:18:56

Well, for example, let me back up a sec when you look at chapter 10 It's useful because you can see

01:19:08

Augustine's exegesis of scripture in the tractate on the gospel of John in his

01:19:17

Narrations of the Psalms and then section D Mistranslations that created doctrine

01:19:27

Mistranslations and he includes Ephesians 2 8 through 10 That'll be fun to work through That's sort of in our wheelhouse.

01:19:37

Shall we say? Yes. I've already looked at it and then Initium Fidei the beginning of faith other mistranslations 1st

01:19:50

Timothy 2 4 1st John 2 2 say does a this sound familiar Romans 9 through 11

01:19:57

Philippians 2 13 Yeah, we'll want to look at all those because what you have here is dr.

01:20:06

Wilson Arguing against against Augustine in these texts, but He's arguing from the modern

01:20:17

Provisionalist standpoint and the anti Lordship form of modern evangelicalism

01:20:24

Which again, I don't know how that doesn't get challenged at Oxford. But hey What can

01:20:30

I say? And then like I said, the conclusion is really important because it really lays everything else

01:20:35

Especially as stuff is being used As is being used today, so and be an

01:20:42

Application being me. But as I said, I was going through I had gone through page 36

01:20:51

And so I wanted to pick up at that point And I'm just trying to remember here where I stopped and I've only got a few minutes

01:21:03

Hmm The bottom of page 36 efforts to rescue the Qumranites from divine unilateral predetermination of individuals eternal destinies individuals as it's it's interesting

01:21:16

Prove insuperable due to their belief in God's direct control over every thought emotion action within irreparably damaged human worms

01:21:26

Remember scripture uses worm of man many times But this is meant to communicate something considering the parallels in Jewish heritage baptismal emphases astrology services held facing the

01:21:41

Sun and extended light dark motifs Qumran and manichaeism

01:21:46

May have shared not only a common belt on Shaung worldview but a common quella source in Ancient Indo Mesopotamian religion

01:22:03

Hmm So Baptismal emphases astrology and services held facing the

01:22:16

Sun light dark motifs Qumran and manichaeism may have shared not only a common belt on Shaung but a common quella in ancient

01:22:27

Indo Mesopotamian religion ancient authors from rhodotist porphyry affirms Zoroaster is magians living throughout the

01:22:34

Mediterranean had similar traditions to later manichaeans with Astrological interests and seeing hymns while abstaining from meat alcohol and sexual intercourse

01:22:41

Well, that's certainly a part of manichaeism, but it's a part of a large number of man's religions large number of man's religions

01:22:49

In all of these religions persons are divinely created for the purpose of eternal damnation or blessing that simply isn't true

01:22:59

We've already demonstrated that The Manichaean God never created a man to begin with So, how can you even

01:23:09

Make this statement in all these religions persons are divinely created for the purpose of eternal damnation or blessing how

01:23:23

Put yourself in a manichaean shoes Who lives in Mesopotamia who isn't in the

01:23:32

Roman Empire Around the time of money was one of his original followers. Well, they've even understood what you're talking about They don't have a creator

01:23:40

God They have equal forces of light and darkness

01:23:48

So what is damnation or blessing blessing is to have the light that is trapped inside your body um

01:23:57

Released back into the realm of light, but you were you your body came into existence your race came into existence because of demons mating who were trying to keep the light trapped in darkness and Once you have that understanding of what's really going on, then you start to see the artificial connectivity

01:24:27

That is being created here. You're creating an artificial connection to promote a theory to promote an idea

01:24:36

Most folks look at manichaeism and go if there is any

01:24:43

Similarity in language any any similarity, you know, they have the elect There is no logical or rational connection

01:24:53

To the concept of the elect within Christianity because the worldview of The two is so completely different that you can't make the categories mesh at all

01:25:10

So the one of the problems in studying in in in the theories of religion in our universities is that they view religions as if they are made of If they're if they're tinker toy religions, some of you don't know what a tinker toys.

01:25:27

I suppose I should say Lego religions Most people know Lego. Most people are tinker toy may still exist.

01:25:34

I don't know, but that was my youth So you could take when

01:25:42

I had tinker toys or I never got into Legos, but you take Legos and you get a big box and you

01:25:49

Put on the floor and there's all these different shapes and stuff and you can put them together in various and sundry different ways that's how scholarship looks at religion and You can just reconstruct things and and so if I make if I make a tank out of my

01:26:09

Legos and I make a plane out of my Legos and There are blue Legos in the plane and blue Legos in the tank, they're obviously related

01:26:23

Well, I suppose they are related amongst Legos. They were made at the Lego factory. It's probably more than one Lego factory.

01:26:28

I don't know But is there really any? conceptual connection Just because they there's a blue Lego in a tank and a blue Lego and a plane is that is that a meaningful?

01:26:41

Connection. Well, they're all blue They look alike, but one's in the tank and one's in a plane

01:26:49

Or maybe one's in a plane and maybe I made those both weapons, but one's in a plane one's on a dinosaur Is there really a connection?

01:26:57

Not one that not one that carries information or meaning That's that's the issue.

01:27:03

So the point is it talks about singing hymns. Yeah. Well staying for me. Well, that's a

01:27:10

That's never been heard of before That's How many religions?

01:27:16

Could we could we trace that to I? Mean, I'll bet you anything

01:27:23

That I could study contemporary South -american

01:27:29

Mayan Minds came later

01:27:36

Olmec and Toltec Yeah, Olmec and Toltec those would be contemporary South American Central American religions and find fasting baptisms astrology

01:27:51

Facing of the Sun for for also Must come from the same thing somebody hey

01:27:59

Somebody must have gone across the ocean. The Book of Mormon is true after all. Hey See how this works

01:28:08

Lego history Don't want to go there That's not what serious people do but you can do it.

01:28:15

It it's it's very common to do this stuff It's how you get books published and it's it's how you come up with your thing.

01:28:24

And yeah, so The Indo -mesopotamian dogma of total inability of free will

01:28:35

Coupled with a totalitarian Providence absolute micromanagement necessitated a divinely infused radical grace to invade the to invade the human heart

01:28:43

Mind or heart for salvation. I don't think almost anybody in the ancient world would have any idea what in the world

01:28:49

He was babbling about at that point. I really don't I Really don't the Indo -mesopotamian dogma of total inability of free will why well depends on which religion you're talking about If you want to talk about some of the background religions to Manichaeism as long as you've got strict dualism none of this has anything to do with a meaningful concept of creation of mankind the will of man as a man as even a morally relevant thing

01:29:28

Because if if if all you've got the father of light doing is emanating things to defend

01:29:34

The kingdom against the invasion of darkness and then you got demons mating and mankind comes out of that, please.

01:29:41

Dr. Wilson there is no connection to what we're saying at that point. Can you not see that? Can you not see that?

01:29:48

It's obvious, isn't it? That's the the chasm is too wide to be able to bridge at this particular point in time

01:29:58

So you're utilizing anachronistically and inaccurately

01:30:05

Terminology that would have one meaning over there and have one meaning there have a different meaning over there and then bring this all together a totalitarian providence

01:30:14

How do you get that? What do you mean a totalitarian providence? All that God and Manichaeism does or even

01:30:21

Gnosticism does is emanate stuff There's no there's no decree there is no absolute micromanagement

01:30:31

After the first war in Manichaeism, do you think that the that there was like, okay now

01:30:37

I'm in control of the situation So the next thing we're gonna do with this and he's gonna do that because I'm micromanaging. No, they'd be going what are you talking about?

01:30:45

They would have no earthy idea No way of understanding what the world is being said.

01:30:51

Well, I Would like to Continue on I'm now on page 37 We got through an entire paragraph.

01:30:59

I'd like to continue on but like I said I've got iron sharpens iron coming up in an hour and There's this little thing called lunch that needs to be done between now and then or I'm gonna be babbling by the time

01:31:09

I might be babbling by the time we're done with the other one anyways But we will press on with this thank you very much for listening all this week

01:31:17

We have to keep doing lots of programs to keep those of you in leftist states company as you are locked down by your leftist governors

01:31:28

Who I hope you remember in about 180 days. You have the opportunity of getting rid of them

01:31:34

Yes, that's gonna be important. Anyway Of course, you may be on a different election schedule.